Governmental ID System in Japan

Kaan writes: "Japan just launched a mandatory, nationwide ID system whereby every citizen is assigned an 11-digit identification number. The database stores personal data (name, address, date of birth, gender, possibly more data) for each person. At least five municipalities are refusing to join the system, which accounts for ~4 million of the 127 million total. While some Japanese folks are refusing to cooperate, most are going along with it. Is this the beginning of the end of privacy in Japan? How much longer until we see something like that in the U.S.?"

Comments

SS#

[DrStrange]

Ahhh, don't we have something like that already known as a social security number?

Re:SS#

[bzcpcfj]

"Ahhh, don't we have something like that already known as a social security number?"

Technically, no, because you don't have to have a social security number. However, since you need one to work, to get a driver's license, even to be claimed as a dependent on your parent's tax return, for all practical purposes, we certainly do.

But, it's better to have one ID than have to keep track of several. The issue is one of whether the system becomes abused.

And, any system can be abused, whether it's one ID number or twenty.

Re:SS#

[Lars T.]

Neither does the Japanes ID-number. That's what the database is there for - and I (not being American) would guess that most of this is also stored in a Social Security database somewhere.

Re:SS#

[Safety Cap]

Thank god the government hasn't figured out the elusive secrets of table joins.

Shh! Now they'll know about the secret (+) code!! Who knows what they will do with their newfound power?!

Re:SS#

[Kefaa]

"Technically, no, because you don't have to have a social security number"

No longer true. When my children were born, a SSN form was required for them prior to leaving the hospital. The days of an "optional" SSN are gone.

Re:SS#

[avdp]

Function full well without a SSN? Not even close. The only thing you may be able to do is live in a cabin in the woods in Montana, without electricity.

You need a SS# for the following (and this is no way a complete listing):

1. work
2. get a driver's licence (in my state anyway)
3. rent an apartment/house (or get a mortgage to buy one)
4. open bank account or credit card accounts
5. get electrical/phone/gas/etc service

So, when you say "full well", maybe this needs to be qualified a bit...

Re:SS#

[TRACK-YOUR-POSITION]

And, any system can be abused, whether it's one ID number or twenty.

Ah, but some systems are more abusable than others...

Re:SS#

[Neon Spiral Injector]

Well when Japan gets it's 100 billionth citizen that'll be something they'll have to consider.

What did they say, they have 127 million now? Over 1/1000 of the way there.

Re:SS#

[sphealey]

No longer true. When my children were born, a SSN form was required for them prior to leaving the hospital. The days of an "optional" SSN are gone.

An SSN is absolutely not required for a child at birth. If you were fanatical about it, and willing to fight your local school board on the issue, you could probably get away without having one up to 16.

However, the IRS, state governments, and medical insurance companies have put tremendous pressure on maternity hospitals to pre-enter the information on the forms and hand it to the parents with a bunch of other paperwork, implying that they must sign and submit it. No, you don't, but it will be a long battle if you choose to fight.

sPh

Re:SS#

[shani]

There's no law requiring children be born in a hospital. It just seems that way, in America at least. (In Holland being pregnant isn't a disease, so most women give birth at home.)

You do need to have a SSN for your children in order to claim them as dependents on your taxes. When this change was introduced, there ended up being a lot less children, meaning a lot of people where cheating on their taxes.

Re:SS#

[tomstdenis]

"not a disease" but can be a huge risk. The reason its done in hospitals in North America is to reduce the risk of complications. Personally [I'm male] if a 7 pound creature was falling out of me I'd want some doctors around... I dunno, just my pref's :-)

Tom

Re:SS#

[Zathrus]

Technically, no, because you don't have to have a social security number.

If you're a US Citizen you do, ever since 1987 I believe.

The SSN is a national ID system. Period. Anyone believing differently is fooling themselves. You have to present it to work (because of that 15% that goes *poof* out of your paycheck), you file it with your taxes, you have to give it for most bank accounts, for mortgage loans, heck, for most financial data (auto loans, credit cards, etc). Most medical plans use your SSN as your ID (or the SSN of the primary cardholder, followed by -# for others).

Don't think living in an apartment means your SSN isn't on file. Most likely the apartment complex wanted to run a credit check on you to lower their risk of a bad rentor. That involved getting your SSN because your SSN is the most reliable way of uniquely identifying you in the credit bureau systems -- I know, I wrote algorithms to try and do matches without the SSN. They weren't nearly as accurate (I think the best we got to was 3 false positives out of 11 million).

Anyone who's had their SSN stolen and used for identity theft can tell you just how much of a nightmare that creates. And this is largely because the SSN has evolved into a national ID without it ever having been designed as one. You can't just reel off a 9 digit number and use it as a SSN (there are check digits), but if I know your SSN then I can pass it off as my own without any additional checks.

Re:SS#

[CokeBear]

Try subscribing here: http://www.2600.com

Alternatively, you could check local bookstores, but usually its hidden behind the counter, or behind the copies of Martha Stewart Living

Just be sure that when you buy it in a store, you pay cash, and don't give them any ID or personal info.

Re:SS#

[ThereIsNoSporkNeo]

"If you're a US Citizen you do, ever since 1987 I believe."

You sure of that date? I could've sworn it was closer to 1984...

Re:SS#

[cduffy]

I've known more than a few mothers who, having given birth to their first child in a hospital, chose to do the subsequent ones at home, with a (trained, licensed) midwife present. By both accounts, the American hospitals tended towards reccomending unnecessary surgery, unnecessary drugs, and provided an atmosphere which was other than entirely supportive.

Given the prudence of the ppl in question (both of whom I know quite well), I'm inclined to trust their judgement.

Re:SS#

[bigpat]

To have the government say they will not respect my name and have to give one to me is insulting and dehumanizing. I consider that by which I should be known and called to be my name and then perhaps where I live. Let the government have their numbers to help them keep track of tax records and such and I will have my name.

Or perhaps we could just have the government start naming kids for us. I'm sure the guys over at AOL could just give us all great unique usernames with their wonderful naming algorithms. Business could start sponsoring names to help defray the great costs that they impose. You next child could be little Billy Johnson2352 for $89.95 or little Delly Dimension43895 for $9.95. you decide.

Re:SS#

[hrieke]

Well when Japan gets it's 100 billionth citizen that'll be something they'll have to consider.
What did they say, they have 127 million now? Over 1/1000 of the way there.

With the lowest child births in the world, I'm guessing that they'll never need to roll over any of the SSN.

Re:SS#

[bellings]

Sure, they'll pester you about it, but if you are firm in your refusal they have to do without it.

You know, they probably don't have to give you electricity, phone, or gas service. You can pester them about it, but if they're firm in their refusal, you'll just have to do without it. If someone at the local electric co. decides not to give you electricity without your SSN, you're probably free to use a different electric company. And they're free to get new customers.

You know... the new customer who moves into your old house after you've frozen to death.

Re:SS#

[Kefaa]

You are correct, they did not require I sign it to take the children home (that would be interesting wouldn't it?)

However, I do wish to get as much of my money back from the government as possible, so I did "need" to fill it out if I wished to ever claim them or get medical benefits, or get them a driver's license [hmmm... should have thought that one out ;-) ]

It is like the idea that a credit card/cell phone/auto dealership/etc. cannot require your SSN but they do not have to provide service if they do not get it. As the guy from the SS adminstration explained it "the laws have fallen behind times"

Re:SS#

[John Jorsett]

It's only required if you want to get the deduction for your kids on your tax return. Think about it: there are hundreds of thousands of illegal alien children in the U.S. They don't have SS#s and still manage to function here.

Re:SS#

[Safety Cap]

SELECT blackbook.name, blackbook.phone, datebook.lastspank
FROM blackbook, datebook
WHERE blackbook.id = datebook.ID (+)
ORDER BY datebook.lastspank;

Bill Clinton's find all the honeys that I haven't banged yet.

Re:SS#

[TibbonZero]

The Barnes and Noble in Greensboro, NC sells 2600, and I think that most B+N's do. Border used to sell them, as well as Blacklist 411, and THUD, but I haven't seen any of them recently there.
Yea, and don't show them any ID or anything, don't take any crap from them about it. It's not illegal, and it's not porn, I don't see why they have made an issue about it at some places... but anyway.

Re:SS#

[Jahf]

Admittedly things may have changed in the 14 years since, but I didn't have a SS# until I was almost 18 years old. I only got the SS# so that I could get a driver's license (in Kansas).

It's not the SS# system itself that is scary, it's the driver's license system. AFAIK, every driver's license is attached to a SS#. The SS# database may not have all of your relevant details, but your DL does. In one state (Alabama) they even printed the SS# by default on my DL. In Tennessee and Colorado it was optional, but they print it if you don't explicitely say "no".

AFAIK, all of the states have linked their DL databases ... which means we effectively already have the same type of system as just went live in Japan.

Re:SS#

[King_TJ]

Yes, you're quite right - although the system the Japanese are implementing is a little more invasive than the SS# in the U.S.

If you think about it, the SS# is really just a numerical equivalent to your full name. The reason it became ubiquitous is because too many people have the same exact first, middle and last name. Banks had issues with directing deposits to the wrong person's account, because they shared the same name (and still do sometimes, when they only do look-ups based on name and get careless).

If people were willing to refer to themselves by unique strings of numbers - there would never have been a need for the SS# in the first place.

The whole "national ID" controversy comes into play because they want everyone to carry around a form of ID that contains some of your personal information, tied to your unique identifier.

Even if you have to give out your SS# to pay with a personal check at the gas station, the attendant doesn't automatically get to know much else about you (other than your address and phone number printed on the check). If they start making you swipe a national ID card through a reader, however, they just added lots of your personal information to their computer database.

Re:SS#

[BrianH]

In the U.S., Social Security is pretty much just for old people (there are exceptions however, including the disabled, widows, and orphaned children). All of us younger working stiffs pay our 15% to support this system, and that barely covers the bills for the present users. The last time a national healthcare plan was floated, I remember seeing a calculation that the SS withdrawal would have to increase to 30%-35% in order to cover every American. 35% doesn't sound too bad until you realize that many Americans currently pay at or near 50% of their salaries to the government: federal taxes, state taxes, local municipality taxes, special assessments and property taxes, sales taxes, smog fees, auto registration and license fees...it all adds up pretty quick. If we were to open our social security system up to everyone, that number would approach 70%...an amount that would break the financial back of many working families (mine included).

Re:SS#

[giminy]

When this change was introduced, there ended up being a lot less children, meaning a lot of people where cheating on their taxes.

Why would people claim to not have children? Having dependants is a tax break (you get a bigger standard deductible, or optionally you can include receipts for kids as necessary for survival). I don't quite get why people would have kids and not claim them...

Re:SS#

[hyperturbopete]

bleh. another good thing FirstName-MiddleInitial-LastName has done for us- our last presidential election - Florida (i know, let it go)

John S. Smith commits a felony. about a dozen people named John S. Smith show up to vote but are not allowed because the felon lists include the name John S. Smith, and the voters who turned up couldnt prove they were'nt THAT John S Smith :-)

ironically, had we used a national ID system (and if these people had ID cards) it may have gone differently :-)

Regardless, though, mandatory ID cards encourage some nasty behavior on the part of the government- though its not like it would be a big change. you already have to have an ID card if you, say, get in your car, or want to travel at an airport.

-pete

Re:SS#

[GrandCow]

Even if you have to give out your SS# to pay with a personal check at the gas station, the attendant doesn't automatically get to know much else about you (other than your address and phone number printed on the check). If they start making you swipe a national ID card through a reader, however, they just added lots of your personal information to their computer database.

How about drivers licenses?

Whenever you write a check you need to show that to the attendant. That's got your name, address, date of birth, gender, etc. on it. Granted, the attendant isn't going to particularly care about all that info but it's there for them to see. I'd consider the DL more like the national ID card that Japan is implementing.

Think about it. It is voluntary, but it's something that 99.9% of the people living in the US carry around all the time. To buy beer or cigarettes, get into clubs, drive, rent movies, whatever you need to show a DL. True, it is voluntary... you don't HAVE to get a drivers license, but how many people don't have one (aside from people under the age of 16 or 15 for learners permits)? And if you don't have a DL many of the rest of the people still choose to get a government issued ID card for the purpose of everything but driving.

Am I the only person here who thinks that this is a miniscule issue at most?

Re:SS#

[yakfacts]

If you took out the inner-city uneducated "welfare mothers", I think the rates would be similar. And I don't think the birth situation has anything to do with it, although the more realistic drug problem management (I would not call it better, but certainly more reasonable) in Holland probably helps a lot.

The "ghetto population" of our large crowded cities pulls down all the health rates in the US. Europe managed to get rid of many of those families by shipping over here (can't blame you). Those are the same groups in the US with the large drug abuse and crime problems, which adds significantly to the infant/maternal mortality rates.

Also adding to that problem is the "Working Poor" in the US who can't afford prenatal health care and won't take advantage of the free programs, due to ignorance or pride.

Remember that there is a vast difference between those people and the average United States citizen...the inner-city masses are the ones I always saw on European programs who could not find France on a map. There seems to be a strong desire in Europe to find some uneducated jerk and put them on television to make the US look bad. Either that or they put on an American pop star, which is just as bad.

The US has the best health care in the world...if you can afford it. But I would suspect we also have close to the most expensive.

Re:SS#

[avdp]

Almost every apartment complex is this country will want to do a credit check on you before giving you the lease, which will require a SS# among other things. I am sure there are some exception, but not a whole geographical area's (New England) worth of exceptions.

As far as utilities, they might give you service without a SS#, but you'll have to put down a deposit. Phone service is doubtful as it is not a neccessity (unless you can give medical proof that it is a neccessity) and therefore they have the right to refuse service if you don't give them the info they want.

The point you are missing, is that nobody can "require" a SS#, however, nobody is "required" to provide you service either (with some exceptions). That's the big loophole around the law.

Re:SS#

[swillden]

It is absolutley required. I'm the father of two kids (4 and 3) and it was required. Sorry to burst the old bubble there.

And just what was the hospital going to do if you refused, raise your children for you?

When my fourth child was born, the hospital tried to tell me I had to watch N hours of videos on parenting (most of which I had dutifully watched when each of my first three children were born). I refused, saying I had seen them before and didn't have time. They said "I'm sorry, sir, but this is mandatory before you can take the child home."

I said "I'm leaving. If you want to keep him, fine. Just send me an invitation to his High School graduation."

Re:SS#

[Dyolf Knip]

Depends on whether or not they want to start reusing numbers, thereby erasing people from bureaucratic history (not such a bad idea, now that I think about it...)

Let's see, Japan's population is 127 million, and with a net growth rate of 0.17% a year, it's safe to say it'll level out at not much more than its present value, tops. Assume the birth rate falls to the death rate, 0.8%, and we have a bit over 1 million new Japanese citizens every year. A permutation space of 100 billion, minus the initial 127 million, divided by 1 million per annum, puts the Land of the Rising Sun in a tough spot in the not-so-distant future of 98,000AD.

Re:SS#

[adolf]

...and in Ohio, at least, the SS number on a drivers livence is completely optional.

Which is to say, when you go in to renew your Ohio license next time 'round, mention to the clerk that you don't want your SS number on your new card, and it won't be there.

I'm working in retail, justnow. I don't do much work as a till-monkey, but I do take checks from from a few people daily. The register reads the magnetic account number on the check, does some funky database magic, and (100% of the time since I've been there) accepts the check without requiring ID of any sort.

Personally, I'm worried about the mag-stripe readers I've been seeing in gas stations lately. They're supposedly there just to verify age, but there's a a lot more personally-identifiable information in that stripe than a birthday.

Fortunately, the stripe on my SS#-free card is unreadable by some odd twist of fate. And somehow, I don't seem to have any trouble buying beer, except for the 30 seconds or so it takes for the clerk to give up on swiping the card and just look at the fucking thing.

Re:SS#

[Stormie]

I think you'll find that what he meant is: a lot of people were claiming to have children (for the tax breaks you mention) when, in fact, they did not. When SS numbers started being demanded, they then had to stop claiming to have children. Hence there were "a lot less children" after this change. All the fake children went away.

Re:SS#

[lostchicken]

How many Dutch children die during birth and never get reported?

If a child dies in a hospital (during birth, not an abortion), he or she WILL be issued a death certificate. If a child dies in Holland, things might be much quieter.

I don't live there, though, so I could be all wrong.

Re:SS#

[avdp]

Any of those places (4 out of 5 of my examples) use the number for credit checks, and therefore a fake number is not likely to work.

As far as DMV, it is true that you might be able to get away with it. However, after sept 11 there has been a big crackdown on fraudulously issued driver's licenses - especially in the state I live in (PA) since there was a huge scandal about middle eastern men getting them illegally around where I live. So I wouldn't risk that either...

Re:SS#

[David Gould]

I've got to add: it's surprising that someone could have managed to misunderstand the original comment this way. I mean, like, of course that's what it meant.

But anyway, the next interesting question is -- how many of the people whose children seemed to 'just up and disappear' from one year to the next got [cue tympani solo -- BUM-bum BUM-bum BUM-bum...] AUDITED the following year? It must have been a fun year to be an IRS auditor; I bet they heard some interesting stories.

Not As Big A Problem As You May Think

[Self Bias Resistor]

This sort of thing has been in place in many countries for quite some time. In Sweden, for example, every resident has a "personnummer" (personal number) that you use for identification purposes. It consists of your birthdate followed by another four-digit number. And the US has their Social Security number.

So what I'm interested in is, what's the problem?

Re:Not As Big A Problem As You May Think

[SeeFood]

exactly. Israel Has it, I'm sure most of Europe has that. it's been that way for well over half a century, get REAL. how else are you counted as a citizen? given a voting right? accepted to schools, and government benefits? accepted to work and fill out the tax forms?

The idea that frightens Americans is not being tagged - come on, the idea of a society with no tagging of who's a member is as rediculous as saying you don't need to release memory when you program. Memory leaks anyone? when we are talking about a country, you are facing problems of population density calculations, which effect infrastructure development, housing, roads, schools, fire stations, everything. you have to keep track, otherwise you break into chaos and people are born and die without anyone taking care of it.

What I think Americans are afraid is the fact that the big brother(s) -NSA, CIA, FBI, whoever, are crossing the information. well ofcourse they are, and have been for years, and they will continue to do it efficiently with or without national ID. it's their JOB. it MAY make their job a little easier, but not by much really.

I appreciate the anarchistic spirit, but it's kinda impossible to maintain a nation and an economy without numbers and tags, or you end up back in the good old wild west. the fact it's not happening is because the system already exists. the fact you are not carrying an ID card in your pocket does not mean you were not assigned one and cross-linked in all the government databases.

Re:Not As Big A Problem As You May Think

[Tikiman]

So what I'm interested in is, what's the problem?

I agree - it seems like the biggest privacy issues in this country are petty at best. Oh no, someone is sending me targeting advertising! Oh no, someone is searching my luggage for a bomb! As an honest citizen, my privacy/body/anything is *far* more likely to be violated by another citizen than the government - I think the Constitution and Supreme Court have done a fine job protecting privacy (perhaps even a little too fine).

Re:Not As Big A Problem As You May Think

[dnoyeb]

I think the abuse problem has been mention 100s of times already and your asking whats the problem?

How many people in US each year have a stolen identity. Without the numbers its impossible unless you possess my body, to steal my identity.

Credit reporting agencies that screw up ones credity ration have defacto power over you. They can hose your record if they want to mess with you. We dont elect the people who have control over these privately held records. My credit is my private business. But some for-profit agency controls it.

Lots of problems with this. Not the least of which is the governments inability to secure the system. poor security is worse than no security at all.

Re:Not As Big A Problem As You May Think

[cduffy]

The idea that frightens Americans is not being tagged - come on, the idea of a society with no tagging of who's a member is as rediculous as saying you don't need to release memory when you program.

Nonsense. The United States (and the rest of the world) lived a long time without mandatory ID technology, and could live indefinetely in such a state.

Taking population density calculations is straightforward -- remember, it can be determined roughly how many people live in an area without knowing who each of them is; modern statistics makes this even easier. People can "take care of" their own births and deaths -- what kind of governmental action do you really think is necessary in such cases, and why?

The "chaos" you speak of has been the natural state of things for most of human history; I suggest you show some genuine advantages if you wish to suggest changing it.

Re:Not As Big A Problem As You May Think

[Guppy06]

"how else are you counted as a citizen?"

The census, every four years

"given a voting right?"

Voter registration, facilitated by a piece of mail sent to me proving that I live in said voting district

"accepted to schools,"

Becoming a legal resident in state X, also facilitated by a piece of mail.

"come on, the idea of a society with no tagging of who's a member is as rediculous as saying you don't need to release memory when you program. Memory leaks anyone?"

The US is a heck of a lot more immigrant-friendly than European countries and we don't see as much need to prevent "memory leaks" as you seem to. Most Americans would rather have a few people sneak into the system than to have a national ID card.

"when we are talking about a country, you are facing problems of population density calculations, which effect infrastructure development, housing, roads, schools, fire stations, everything. you have to keep track"

Again, we have a census every four years.

"otherwise you break into chaos and people are born and die without anyone taking care of it."

That's why states give out birth and death certificates.

"What I think Americans are afraid is the fact that the big brother(s) -NSA, CIA, FBI, whoever, are crossing the information. well ofcourse they are, and have been for years,"

Apparently you don't understand the concept of interservice rivalry...

"the fact it's not happening is because the system already exists."

If it already existed there wouldn't be so many pushes in Congress to pass new legislation creating it.

Re:Not As Big A Problem As You May Think

[keefebert]

Most Americans would rather have a few people sneak into the system than to have a national ID card.
I don't know what majority of American you spoke to, but the ones I know either think a national ID is a good idea or don't care if there is a national ID. And they most certainly don't want immigrants sneaking into the system. Also, you seem to metion numerous ways to accomplish certain goals, the census, birth and death cretificates. What is the problem in consolidating all this info into one source? That is all an national ID would do.

Re:Not As Big A Problem As You May Think

[Negadecimal]

The idea that frightens Americans is not being tagged

I don't think it's being tagged so much as not being able to change who you're tagged as. Americans love the idea of self-reinvention: that no matter how much you've screwed up your past, you can still start over... a cross-linked database of your history doesn't help that.

Re:Not As Big A Problem As You May Think

[Debillitatus]

If it already existed there wouldn't be so many pushes in Congress to pass new legislation creating it.

I agree with most of what you said, and with most of the spirit of your post, but this one line just ain't right. The unspoken assumption in your claim is that Congress doesn't pass redundant legislation, which, as we all know, is nowhere near correct.

Cool...

[Spackler]

Cool, Ashcroft got Japan to run his Beta Testing for him.

Re:Cool...

[JimBobJoe]

...in an odd way, you bring up a point that not a single person has mentioned.

Japan is a highly bureaucratic country--has been for hundreds of years now, and certainly since the war.

Japan is also a country which prides itself on organization, and strives to put in place hierarchies of bureaucracy.

So why do they need the number now? Clearly they have survived perfectly well without it. That to me is the oddest part--I can't find a single article saying why they suddenly need a universal ID number. My personal stereotypes of the Japanese say that it certainly has nothing to do with fraud or identification theft.

I don't think it's Ashcroft incidentally, but I believe that the companies who make ID card systems (Polaroid, Viisage, Unisys...et cetera) are really good at selling their systems to schmuck politicians who don't realize that they have no need for em.

I heard that was the Bulgarian experience. Bulgarians had pre-berlin internal passports for identification with the government security forces...after communism collapsed, the need for an ID card took a big dive. However, a country on the verge of bankruptcy, required that everyone get new ID cards in the mid to late 90's. The general belief is
a.) some ID card maker made a great pitch
b.) part of that pitch was that new ID cards would represent a profit opportunity for the government.

Continental Europe had had this for ages...

[stud9920]

...and see what a dictature they live in ! Now not only does the state know people's gender, they know people's AGE too ! This is ludacris ! Before you'll know, they will keep people's ADRESS too ! Ludacris !

Re:Continental Europe had had this for ages...

[sql*kitten]

..and see what a dictature they live in ! Now not only does the state know people's gender, they know people's AGE too ! This is ludacris ! Before you'll know, they will keep people's ADRESS too ! Ludacris !

That's not the issue. We've all seen the movies set in, say, the old Soviet Empire in which citizens are stopped in the street by policemen who demand to see their "papers". No papers? Then you cannot walk down the street minding your own business.

You see, there are two basic forms of justice. Habeas Corpus is the system by which the prosecution must prove guilt, and is used by the US and UK. The Napoleonic code is used in Europe, and requires the defence to prove innocence. A national ID system that has to be shown on demand would fundamentally reshape the judicial landscape.

Re:Continental Europe had had this for ages...

[Kidbro]

The Napoleonic code is used in Europe, and requires the defence to prove innocence.

I don't know which country you visited when you were in Europe back in the eighties, but it most likely doesn't exist any more.

Actually....

[Angry White Guy]

You don't need a SSN to work in the US. It is a lot of paperwork to wade through, you usually have to educate your employer that one is not necessary, and fill out a million forms to get a job, but you don't actually have to have one to work.

What do you mean "when"?

[Gryffin]

"How much longer until we see something like that in the U.S.?"

What do you mean, "when"? It's called the Social Security Number, or more accurately these days, "Taxpayer Identification Number". And besides just name, address, date of birth and gender, it's tied to your employment history (in governemnt databases), credit history, medical history, and tons more (in "private" databases).

Thats why I'm a Libertarian

[SuperCal]

I know that it sounds like a troll, but seriously this is the kind of thing that made me a Libertarian. My towns congressmen , both Dem. and Rep, have all pledged to fight government invasion of privacy, but they keep voteing us closer to this kind of thing.

Sounds like the danish system.

[Hektor_Troy]

Our CPR (Central Person Registry) stores your CPR-number. Mine looks like this:

130477-1235 (no, this is not my real CPR-number)

This indicates that my birthdate is the 13th day of the 04th month of the 77th year.

1235 is the "checksum" and gender-marker; even numbers for women, uneven for men. I think they use X for women and Y for men without a permanet citizen ship (refugees and the like).

Also, the entire number has to pass some kind of test, but I can't remember how it's used.

The CPR also has the current address of each person along with an opt out feature for commercial mail targeted at you, which is nice, because all companies in Denmark have to comply by that setting, but they only have access to the address through CPR.

You can read a lot more about the system here.

I am a proponent of personal privacy, and I don't have a problem with this system - probably because I can't think of a single intrusion into my privacy caused by it.

I think it comes down to "trust", and so far I haven't had a reason not to trust the CPR.

Re:Sounds like the danish system.

[Hektor_Troy]

Actuall a couple of times each year, we hear another tale of a 106 year old who is asked to start kindergarden and bring their parents the first day.

Or the occasional old person who can't renew his/her passport, because he/she should be registered in their parents passport.

It always gets a laugh and a heartily conclusion, because dispite the what the computers might say, the human operators are in charge.

A change has been discussed for several years, since the early 90's I think, which among other things could contain certain biometrics, like fingerprints.

Now, before you go up in arms over storing fingerprints for everyone, there are some VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY strict laws on who can access what data in what government databases, so it's not like the police can just pull up your tax records or in the case of biometrics your fingerprints.

The way I would like to see the biometrics implemented is a verify-only system, where the store isn't told who I am, just if I am who I claim to be, perhaps by checking my CPR-card and my fingerprint or what have you.

It is a tricky line though, and I think a good sollution would be not to store the biometrics for children, unless their parents implicitly asks for it, and then to remove the data again, when the child is 18 (or whatever age), forcing them to decide for themselves if they want to store that data in a central registry.

Re:Sounds like the danish system.

[Guanix]

The CPR doesn't just contain your current address, it contains all your previous addresses, the CPR numbers of your parents, your place of birth and some other information.

There's also a registry of organisations that have subscribed to your personal information. This is how Danish banks will always be notified when you change your address.

Only the last digit is a checksum, using the modulo 11 rule; the weights are 4 3 2 7 6 5 4 3 2 1.

Re:Sounds like the danish system.

[n-baxley]

I am a proponent of personal privacy, and I don't have a problem with this system - probably because I can't think of a single intrusion into my privacy caused by it.

And yet you won't give us your number. Why is that? Just curious what your thought process was.

Re:Sounds like the danish system.

[Hektor_Troy]

Or have a system where the ruling parties aren't "the same" (we have 8 different parties in congress right now), where each party loves to bring up goofs and abuses by the other parties, and have the press do the same.

Right now we have the ability to track down the people cheating society out of huge amounts of money by the way of social forgery, but we don't do it because the various parts of government aren't allowed to share data between each other.

If I were to fall ill and get hospitalized in Copenhagen, the doctors there cannot use my CPR-number to find out anything about my medical history, because thay cannot access data outside their own registers without my concent. Okay, usually they can settle for an oral concent, so I guess they could if they really needed it, but dispite the posibilities of abuse of the danish system, I haven't heard of any such cases.

Until the EU forced new regulation onto Denmark, Danske Bank and Danske Kredit (two companies owned by the same company) couldn't share any information about me, even though they had their databases placed ~2" apart.

Re:Sounds like the danish system.

[Hektor_Troy]

Maybe I lied ...

Maybe it's because we've been told since 1968 (when the system was instated) that we shouldn't tell anyone the last four digits of our CPR number, if they didn't need it.

Re:Sounds like the danish system.

[Hektor_Troy]

"Only the last digit is a checksum, using the modulo 11 rule; the weights are 4 3 2 7 6 5 4 3 2 1."

I've always been curious as to how that rule is supposed to work, because I've only been told , that the last four digits are supposed to be divisible by 11 (xxxx%11 == 0), but that doesn't work on mine or my fathers, but it does on my cousins.

Re:Sounds like the danish system.

[Hektor_Troy]

The URL you gave is ASP hosted on IIS. Additionally, I was unable to access the website using NetScape.

I wouldn't trust my shopping list on that software.

Gee wiz, I know that's how they do things stateside, but in Denmark the government agencies doesn't go around storing sensitive information on webservers, and if I'm not mistaken, any access to the CPR database has to run through dedicated lines.

Re:Sounds like the danish system.

[CoreyG]

130477-1235 (no, this is not my real CPR-number)

That's my number! Thanks a lot, jerk!

Re:Sounds like the danish system.

[Hektor_Troy]

Suppose your country's next-door neighbor turns Nazi and occupies you.

It's happened before, so why not again ...

Suddenly they find this convenient set of databases which make it easy to figure out who in your country owns a gun, who seems to be a political activist who might cause trouble, etc... Guns are registered with the police, so it is probably easy to get to, but I don't know that procedure, as I don't own a gun.

Political activist ... well, they'd have to get hold of the membership records of all political parties, so that's not a great concern.

But if we were to be occupied by another country, I think those records would be far down my list of priorities ...

The main theme in the replies here seem to be "the wolf is comming, even if it's been extinct for millenia".

Believe it or not, the system we have in Denmark makes it more difficult for someone to pretend to be you. To get a drivers license here, you first have to go through rigorous lessons at an authorized driving instructor. Then you have to pass an exam, afterwhich you give them two passport pictures; one for your temporary drivers licens which is valid for driving only and only for 14 days. Then they mail you your license. To the address listed in the system. If you can get a drivers license or passport in my name, without me knowing about it, I have bigger problems than central registration, because then you have physical access to my home address.

Want to open a bank account in my name? Not a problem, but try avoiding me getting wind of it.

The easiest part in a discussion like this is to come up with ways to abuse the system, but how about taking the approach of protecting the system? If you can do it with software, why shouldn't it be possible to do it with data like this?

Re:Sounds like the danish system.

[swillden]

I think it comes down to "trust", and so far I haven't had a reason not to trust the CPR.

Then why did you post a phony CPR? If the system can't be abused, let's have your real one!

Re:Sounds like the danish system.

[Bake]

The Icelandic system has a builtin defence for these situations. It's very similar to the other nordic systems (yymmdd-nnnn), but in Iceland the first 3 of the last 4 represent a checksum of the first 6 (i.e. the birthdate). The last number however is protection against 106 year olds being asked to go to school as that number represents the century.

Two fictional examples, two persons, one born in 1980 and one born today.

060880-1239
and
060802-1230

Re:Sounds like the danish system.

[Hektor_Troy]

So he can fire me when I turn 60?

That would be age discrimination and is illegal. Maybe you should try living in a country where the labor has more rights than the employers - it's actually quite nice.

This is good

[dybdahl]

Denmark has had this since the 1970's, which is also the reason why the Danish population is very popular amongst researchers. All health care information is available through this central computer system, and this makes researchers able to find correlations quickly. All tax information is provided this way, too. You cannot open a bank account without telling your 10-digit identification number, which the bank will use to report to the state.

It is extremely convenient - when moving, you only have to tell it once, and then all banks, insurance companies, the army (if you are reserve), your doctor etc. know your new address.

There are some security concerns and there is a very strict legislation about how to handle this system, but the economical benefits are huge and it does benefit society a lot.

Having lived in both in Denmark where everybody has an ID-number (but no ID-cards), and in Germany, where everybody has an ID-card (but no ID-number), I clearly prefer the Danish system.

Dybdahl.

Re:This is good

[Hektor_Troy]

The only problem is, that since the health insurance certificate doesn't have a picture ID, which is rather annoying for me, as I don't have nor do I want a credit card, nor do I have a drivers license yet or a passport.

But what the hell ... I've survived since 130477 so far ...

Re:This is good

[n-baxley]

There also would need to be laws to prevent 1984-style monitoring of everything you do.

There is a huge leap to be made from assigning everyone a number and "1984-style monitoring". They really have nothing to do with each other. If someone wanted to monitor you, they would assign you their own ID.

Re:This is good

[Peter H.S.]

[snip about the Danish CPR -ID system]

There are some security concerns and there is a very strict legislation about how to handle this system, but the economical benefits are huge and it does benefit society a lot.

The security around the CPR ID database system wasn't really that good some years ago; an internal audit made them tighten up the security a lot.
And usually, the control around any public database system in Denmark is a joke; all most all cops use the KR (criminal register) to snoop on their neighbours. The register is never cleaned for old records, even though the law requires it. A combination of these two vices, were demonstrated, when nosey police officers, leaked the criminal record of a well known conservative politician; he had a "drinking & driving" offence when he was around 18, in the 1950'ies. This costed him his post as a leader of the conservative party.
As usually, the police was unable to even discover which policy officer had leaked the information.
For what I know, your conviction that your data is safe in the states database systems, is pretty much nothing more than a conviction.

Besides, there are a major problem with centralized ID systems, besides the states tendency to abuse the system, namely, that such a system is a benefit for the Bad Guys too.

Eg. In Denmark the CPR ID number is slabbed around the newborn babies wrist, even before it is handed over to its mother. Everybody has a CPR id number. A huge amount of data is tied around that number, since all transactions with the state /county are tied to the CPR. Fortunately, a lot of the information is compartmentalized, meaning that one cannot (easily) make a centralized query of all the information regarding a citizen.

But since the CPR system is so convenient and omnipresent, even the lowliest, unmotivated, underpaid county clerk has access to it. (the open terminals that are so convenient when dealing with the state /county).
So getting access to all that real time information on people, is staggering easy.
One case to illustrate the point. During the 80'ies, the KGB just bribed such a county clerk, to tag all russian dissidents living here in Denmark.
So the KGB had instant updates on them, even if they changed their name and address constantly.
All those queries on russian dissidents (who weren't even living in this small county) were never discovered by an internal audit.

Another case: "Blekingegade banden" was a violent extremist group, that supplied extremist palestinian terror groups with weapons and money, stemming from violent robberies.
They were not stupid as many criminals actually are; they were intelligent and educated, and planted a man inside the institution that was running not only the CPR, but also the KR (criminal register), and countless other databases.
So this small "terrorist" group had an excellent tab on, how much the police new about them and their crimes.

I am sure, that both the KGB, Stasi, CIA etc, all had tremendous benefit of the Danish centralized register. Just as a lot of countries intelligence services will benefit from eg. a central US, or Japanese citizen ID database. Eg. Agent [ID] just moved to an area where [fascilitate] is located. He also got a raise, putting him in the same income bracket as known agents performing [function].

The ending of this rant:
Identity theft is just as easy with a centralized ID database as without, and probably more convenient for the thief.
And finally don't even think about the mess of troubles if one ever is deleted by the Danish CPR register (happens sometimes). Even with a valid ID as a passport, two hundred witnesses and your birth certificate, you are denied everything, like wage, a bank account, pension, etc. Even if the state /county officials /bank tellers /insurence agents are convinced about your identity, nothing can be done, since you are not in the CPR.

Re:This is good

[n-baxley]

Yeah,
I thought of that after I posted. I was hoping no one would see the hole in my logic, but I was wrong. Damn! :-)

Re:This is good

[lildogie]

> Denmark has had this since the 1970's,
> which is also the reason why the Danish
> population is very popular amongst
> researchers. All health care information is
> available through this central computer system,
> and this makes researchers able to
> find correlations quickly.

Do you have socialized medicine in Denmark? If so, you wouldn't have to worry about being _denied_ health care based on what some researcher found out about you in a database.

In the U.S.A. we don't have a right to health care. We can be denied care if we have certain unpopular diseases.

Most countries...

[Kobal]

...already have identification numbers, be they for ID cards, social security or both. In most cases, the only centralized information is in the number itself, linked to the name. I haven't heard of any widespread falsification through hacking. Of course, if the number itself isn't directly based on the info, which is instead stored in a database, things could get awry... Yet, it's weird people would complain about getting such a unique id number when database cross-referencing is already common practice.

They'll need more than 11 #'s!

[SoSueMe]

From the article:
"the new ID numbers -- for each of Japan's 126 million citizens...."
Three paragraphs later:
"About four million of Japan's 127 million people...."
At that rate of population explosion, how long till they run out of number combos?

Re:They'll need more than 11 #'s!

[bluGill]

Last I checked, most experts expect the population will start shrinking within 50 years. Briths are down, in many countries to below the replacement rate.

China has had a one child per family policy for years now. Enough for the 3rd generation to start thinking about kids. When the grandparents start dieing in a few years their population will implode (8 great grandparents for every kid, figgure it out) China sill has the largest population, though India isn't far behind.

Many "first world" countries are already shrinking before immigration.

Of course the counter argument is nobody knows what will happen. China is the only one who forces population control. If big families suddenly became fashionable things would change.

Re:They'll need more than 11 #'s!

[Saeger]

Good. People shouldn't have the freedom to breed like rabbits.

IMO, the US should be giving tax credits to those who don't squirt babies out, instead of the other way around. Manifest destiny is overwith, and China, along with the rest of the world, is a larger market of new consumers than "homegrown Americans" anyway.

I'm not joking.

--

Re:They'll need more than 11 #'s!

[isorox]

"the new ID numbers -- for each of Japan's 126 million citizens...."
Three paragraphs later:
"About four million of Japan's 127 million people...."

This actually makes sence. While you were reading, another person was born in japan, and the population increased from 126,499,999 to 126,500,000. Obviously to 3 significant figures theres a major change.

Re:They'll need more than 11 #'s!

[ArcadeNut]

That is why I am going to recommend that they use GUID's.

You're # 7B9E753A-70EA-4695-9B6C-077B5DEB730B

We'll never run out of those! This way its easier for every nation to track you as well since there should never (in practicle terms) see a duplicate.

Re:They'll need more than 11 #'s!

[isorox]

Well maybe they were talking about the population as they wrote the article?

Re:I've seen it in movies ...

[bowronch]

from the jargon file:

Godwin's Law: [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.

privacy in japan?

[small_box_of_stuff]

have any of you ever been to japan? the idea of privacy is silly. they never had any, what would they be giving away exactly?

Get used to it

[bildstorm]

I actually think this is a good idea.

People in the U.S. gripe about identity theft left and right. Part of the reason it's so easy to perform identity theft is that while a social security number is tied to a person, it's only tied by the fact it was assigned. Remember, we recycle these stupid numbers.

I have a Finnish ID number as well, since I lived there for quite some time. That one actually makes sense. It's my birthday in DDMMYY form, plus three digits and a letter. That identifies where I was born, when I was born, and my gender. It's not exactly easy to steal from people, since it really is tied to the person, not simply assigned.

Technically in Finland, you don't have to give out the number, but in reality you use it for a number of things. The cool part is that they write down the last part (the three digits and letter) when checking credit cards, lessening credit card fraud. Anyone remember when they used to check stuff here in the U.S.?

<example_id>040463-395F</example_id>

Re:Get used to it

[n-baxley]

It's my birthday in DDMMYY form, ...

Doesn't that format start to cause problems with anyone over 100 years old?

Re:Get used to it

[breezer]

Actually the example id number "040463-395F" has incorrect checksum. The Finnish ID number has a checksum digit to detect incorrect ID numbers.

The first six digits tell your birthday in DDMMYY form. The next digit can be "+" if your born in 18XX, "-" if your born in 19XX or "A" if born in 20XX. The next three digits contain a consecutive number to uniquely identify people born who were born in the same day. This number is even for female and odd for male.

The last digit is a checksum calculated from the first 9 numbers of the ID. This 9 digit number is divided by 31 and the remainder of this division determines the last digit of the ID.

e.g. in this case:
040463395 / 31 = 1305270, remainder 25.
For remainder of 25 the checksum digit is T, not F. (remainder = 0-9, checksum digit = 0-9. Remainder = 10, checksum digit = A, 11 = B, 12 = C, etc.)

Oh my god...

[MosesJones]

The GOVERMENT WILL KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE!

How scary is that, they know where you work, they know how much you earn, they know how old you are, they know your gender, they know how many kids you have, they know who your parents are.

This is so scary, and even worse every few years they let you put a poxy "X" on a piece of paper to say you agree with it.

This has to be the biggest non-story of the year, almost every country already does this. You pay taxes, the goverment knows who you are... avoiding taxes then you are a criminal.

Too much fuss

[Saib0t]

There's way too much fuss over something very legitimate, IMHO.

As a belgian citizen, I've been living with a mandatory national ID card for all my life (well, from age 12 anyway). This card holds my names, adress, name of wife and kids, a national ID number (birth date + some digits) and a picture. Is that national ID card an infringement on my privacy? NO!

I use the card to identify with state services such as when I want a copy of an official document, when I go vote, etc.; when requested by the police, for banking purposes: I have to show my ID card before doing a withdrawal at the bank, to create a new bank account, ... But NOTHING besides that.

Does my governement keep all this data in a database. Sure they do. What do they do with that? Most certainly nothing.

I fail to understand how you all people see this as an end to privacy. It's your government after all, they're supposed to know who's living where, who voted (voting is mandatory here). There's no pretending you're someone else than you, because that ID card is mandatory and there's a picture of you on it. So you can't pose as someone else (and someone can't pose as you).

Do you remember the story of that wife who kept being arrested because she shared the same name as a wanted criminal? That could never happen with a national ID card, because all she'd have to do was present it and be left alone.

National ID cards are GOOD, not bad.

Re:Too much fuss

[Dave Bailey]

Several people have commented on European schemes which run without too many difficulties or objection.

Maybe the point here is that Europeans trust their governments more than Americans do...

Re:Too much fuss

[MtViewGuy]

I think I know what is the worry: people think we'll end up with a Soviet-style internal passport that the law enforcement authorities can ask to be checked anytime.

Anyway, we're most of the way there already here in the USA. Most of the state-level driver's license data are nationally linked, mostly as a means to prevent truckers from running up multiple traffic citations in several states and other states not knowing about it (truckers used to have multiple state commercial trucker's licenses).

Re:Too much fuss

[Twylite]

And then again ... why not? Do we really want a bunch of illegal immigrants running around ... or how to we tell the difference between then and true nationals. Wait ... racial profiling?

In South Africa you have an ID booklet (card system will occur sometime in the future ... shees) and a passport. Both are optional, although you will always have an ID number, and need an ID book to vote, open bank accounts, etc. (Proving your ID without a birth certificate becomes fun though, by all accounts).

In addition, when you reach 16 your ID book is reissued (your "junior" ID expires when you reach 16), and you are fingerprinted before being issued your new ID. Shock, horror.

Privacy implications? Sure ... if you are prepared to brush a place and run a fingerprint match, you can figure out if I was there. But then few people or organisations are likely to go to that trouble unless we're actually talking about a criminal indicent, which is precisely the case in which you want ALL adult fingerprints on file.

Does this mean I support genetic fingerprinting as well? No. A fingerprint in and of itself does not tell you anything significant about a person. A generic fingerprint does - many industries would love to get hold of that sort of information to load your insurance/medical premiums, to name but one possibility.

Re:Too much fuss

[cduffy]

I fail to understand how you all people see this as an end to privacy. It's your government after all, they're supposed to know who's living where, who voted (voting is mandatory here).

Since when was it my government's job to know anything about me?

My government's job is to offer services to the public -- law enforcement, fire protection, roads, public education, that sort of thing. Good government is the servant of the people, not their master. Anything which upsets this order is dangerous in the extreme.

Re:Too much fuss

[Saib0t]

Maybe the point here is that Europeans trust their governments more than Americans do...

I hate to sound like a troll, but americans can have a government they trust too. The easiest way is to remember that the congresscriters are elected by the people.
A general trend among american friends of mine is a total disinterest in politics. The reason is lack of trust obviously. I'm not telling changing the system is easy, but the least they can do, as responsible citizen is to GO VOTE and express their opinion. If you don't want to leave the system as it is, go vote for an outsider with already an established voter base, like nader. If that guy manages to get in the 10%, people who usually vote for the respublicrats will start to see him (or his party) as an viable alternative instead of the "vote trashcan" people made him to be.

There can hardly be a democratic government when there are only 2 near identical options. Summary: GO VOTE.

Just my 2 Eurocents.

Re:Too much fuss

[Saib0t]

people think we'll end up with a Soviet-style internal passport that the law enforcement authorities can ask to be checked anytime.

I don't know about the soviet-style thing, but the thing I have to say about authorities checking your ID "anytime" is "what's the problem???".

If you're who your national ID card says you are, then no problem, you're checked, you're clear, you move along, it took 2 minutes of your time.

Compare this with the potential benefit to ease the tracking of criminals or simply prevent people from posing as you...

Re:Too much fuss

[Saib0t]

Since when was it my government's job to know anything about me?

My government's job is to offer services to the public -- law enforcement, fire protection, roads, public education, that sort of thing. Good government is the servant of the people, not their master. Anything which upsets this order is dangerous in the extreme.

Examples of needs to know where and who you are:
- You didn't pay your taxes and left the place you lived in. As a responsible citizen, you're supposed to. The government needs to know where you are.
- You're elligible for a tax rebate: Where does the government send it to?
- A criminal decided to kill you. He does but the governement doesn't know where you are.
- A fire in the woods is coming near your house, you live in the basement of your hut in the forest, the fire brigade needs to know to warn you.
- You just turned 100 (congratulations, by the way). You don't have to pay any taxes anymore, you weren't aware of that, but you receive a letter in the mail from the gov to inform you of that nice situation.
- You kidnapped 7 girls, the FBI finds traces of your DNA on the location the rapts were made. Now they know where you (used to) live to start looking for clues as to where the girls are.
The list goes on, there are plenty of cases where the government needs to know about you...

The job of the government is to serve you, but to do that, the government needs to be aware of your existence and your whereabouts. If you don't trust your governement, maybe is it a sign that you need another one...

Re:Too much fuss

[cduffy]

You didn't pay your taxes and left the place you lived in. As a responsible citizen, you're supposed to. The government needs to know where you are.

This is one of the reasons an income tax is so problematic -- with other taxes (sales taxes or property taxes, for instance) this problem doesn't exist.

You're elligible for a tax rebate: Where does the government send it to?

Doesn't happen with sales taxes, or value-added taxes, or flat income taxes, or any other tax designed not to have that misfeature..

A criminal decided to kill you. He does but the governement doesn't know where you are.

How would it help if they did? (Especially since I'm already dead)

Most reports of this kind of crime are made by family or friends. Said family or friends will generally be able to provide the needed information -- or at least a location of the victim's most recent home, so that evidence there can be used to make whatever other determinations are necessary.

A fire in the woods is coming near your house, you live in the basement of your hut in the forest, the fire brigade needs to know to warn you.

If I live in a rural area, my safety is my own lookout -- no matter how much information is in some government database. Fire and police protection simply can't be trusted to assist those living in such areas in time, and this isn't something I expect to change in the near future.

You just turned 100 (congratulations, by the way). You don't have to pay any taxes anymore, you weren't aware of that, but you receive a letter in the mail from the gov to inform you of that nice situation.

Easest solution is not to have such complicated tax rules that such notifications are needed.

You kidnapped 7 girls, the FBI finds traces of your DNA on the location the rapts were made. Now they know where you (used to) live to start looking for clues as to where the girls are.

So the FBI can find a sample of my DNA but not my current address?! In any event, old-fashed police work has been effective long before central databases existed.

If you don't trust your governement, maybe is it a sign that you need another one...

If you do trust your government, you may soon end up with one less deserving of such trust.

"The government" is, like any other organization, made up of people -- and people are fallable. People (particularly those going into politics) are also power-hungry, and manipulative, and prone to making decisions that seem like the Right Thing at the time but have dire consequences down the road. One of the best ways to keep a good government is to view its actions with suspicion and distrust, and be cautious that it not overstep its bounds.

Finally, let me note that it's entirely reasonable for a local government to keep land ownership records, birth and death records, voting rosters and the like. It's when these records become centralized and easily searchable by a wide variety of entities (not all of whom are prone to public oversight) that I become concerned. Finally, if I travel out-of-state and spend a month or two living with friends, that's my business and that of those I choose to inform. Requiring people to register their every movement is a tactic used frequently by those who would repress others -- and thus, caution in its face is well-deserved.

Re:Too much fuss

[Twylite]

I'd rather have a system that the government can abuse than one an arbitrary criminal can abuse. Why? Because the government can abuse anything an arbitrary criminal can, and in most places of the world the word of one cop is NOT the law (cops have to prove that they handled evidence correctly, that there was a witness to all handling of evidence at all times, etc) - i.e. it takes two to tango.

Re:Too much fuss

[Saib0t]

Nice to see a lot of Europeans coming in with "what's wrong with this? We've had this for years"; or "you've got nothing to hide to your government"; or simply "get real!"

You may have noticed that I am not telling any of the above. Instead, I am sharing with you why I think a national ID card is good...

I do not see anything in your Belgian mandatory ID card system that is not covered by a simple state driver's license or a state ID card in the U.S. The only difference between dictatorship and freedom is that you have a choice (which gives at least an illusion of freedom) - it is not required in the U.S. in any state to have a state ID or a driver's license, but having and using it does make similar things you listed above easier.

You are partially right. What I do have on my ID card is also present on your driving license (on mine too, by the way) and on state ID cards. But like you mentionned, neither are mandatory nor are they practical (not all people drive). One of the points of having a nation wide ID card is clear and flawless ability of identification.

I have nothing against people who praise dictatorship and lack of privacy. But I guess to understand that you have to look beyond the boundaries of your personal life because dictatorship is the system, not just your personal "oh so cute" card in your wallet.

I am living in the constitutional kingdom of belgium. We have a democraticaly elected prime minister. And before you whine about King Albert II being a dictator, his role is "merely" to provide a check to keep balance in the system.
Now, with regards to privacy. I think I enjoy more privacy than my american friends do. We have strict laws regarding privacy (they are enforced too). No one can check whether I got a speed ticket outside of police and justice. No one can have me do a piss test to see if I consume drugs prior to be hired. My freedom and privacy are protected, are yours?

First, I don't know how they arrest people in Belgium but if police just have the name of a criminal, and then go out and jail everybody by that name then there's lot more problems than you realize.

You misread my comment. A national ID card would have prevented the lady from being arrested in the US, as her national ID number would not have matched that of the criminal they were looking for. The thing you describe is what happened in the USA to an american lady, not in belgium.

And second, why don't you give people a choice if you are so kind-hearted with good will. Why don't you make any kind of ID system voluntary?

Because one of the points of having a national ID card is that it is mandatory. If it isn't, then you can't rely on it for identification.

Re:Too much fuss

[swillden]

If you don't trust your governement, maybe is it a sign that you need another one...

Ah, but even if you trust the government you have now, how can you be certain you'll trust the next one?

Link

[Saib0t]

Sorry to reply to my own post, but this is the kind of thing that a national ID card would prevent.

I never understood American fear ...

[Khazunga]

... of a national ID number. In Europe its quite common -- except for the brits. The real question is whether companies or the state can do joins on the different databases.

Portuguese laws forbid different entities from cross-referencing their databases, without explicit approval of the citizens. The way it is written, it even affects different departments of the state -- leading to a social security number, a tax ID number, etc.

I think it is a lot worse the way its done in the US, where everyone and their dog knows your SS#. It is very easy to cross-reference the DBs. At least here, they'd need to do some data mining...

Re:I never understood American fear ...

[truesaer]

Portuguese laws forbid different entities from cross-referencing their databases, without explicit approval of the citizens.

And there is the problem. In America, government doesn't look out for the interests of its citizens. Instead, once a database is created businesses would begin to lobby, and shortly thereafter they would have complete access to this.

Let me give you one example. In my state of Michigan, when you apply for a drivers license your information is put into a database. The state then immediately sells this data to telemarketers and junk mail people. You can opt out, but it is a pain in the ass (you have to submit a paper form at the local secretary of states office, and a visit to this office is similar to a visit to hell) so no one does it.

It is a shame that the SSN has been used for so many things. Only now are people beginning to realize that it is better not to use this number due to identity theft. Another example, my university now assigns real student ID numbers instead of using the SSN for privacy reasons. Businesses should start using phone numbers exclusively for looking up accounts (many already do this).

Alarmist article

[kbs]

Japan, and many other countries in Asia already had a "family registry" system in place. Taiwan has one too, although their system has always been a national system. It's not particularly unusual. The only thing that's different here than the system already in place is that the information gathered is slightly more, and better tracked on a national scale.

One thing I find rather amusing about this whole affair is that the fact Japan is standardizing what local municipalities have been doing is causing a ruckus, and that the whole "mandatory" aspect of it is trumped up. Japanese citizenship is particularly restrictive already, and given the heavy government involvement in the nationalized school system, etc. it should be no surprise that something such as an identity number should make such a big deal.

Having the information of who lives where is not harmful in of itself, as long as there are severe checks in place as to who can access it and under what circumstances one can access that information. Understandably many in this forum perhaps distrust anyone with this sort of information, but at some level there needs to be some standard of information for every individual in order to do anomaly detection (read: finding terrorists).

I think those of us in countries with a very heavy emphasis on "individual rights" as opposed to "group rights" have a rather strong tendency to look at everything in the view of "self over society" as opposed to particularly respecting other nation-systems and such. Given that it seems the legislation passed, I doubt that the majority does not support this action.

That being said, the United States could not (at this time anyway) pass anything resembling that... people are way too enamored with states rights for anything to ever become nationalized.

-k

Benefit--voter registration

[PMuse]

In a country where video rental stores routinely demand your social security number before they allow you to rent tapes (and it takes a minimum 30-minute argument with 3 managers to convince them that's an illegal requirement), most or all of the harms of universal ID number are already here. Let's get some of the benefits. With a national ID number and national ID card,

1. Voter registration can be eliminated: Along with all the civil rights battles that entails. Anyone old enough can simply show up at a polling place on election day and vote. This eliminates a whole level of exclusionism.

2. Driver's Licenses can be just for drivers: So, so many Americans who can't drive (for reasons including age, disability, etc.) fight to maintain their driver's licenses because it's HARD to participate in society and commerce without one. A national ID card would provide all persons with an ID that merchants wouldn't question -- and no need for a driving test. Furthermore, people who know that they're unsafe, incapable drivers would have an alternative to keeping their licenses. This would allow them to avoid the temptation to drive.

Re:Benefit--voter registration

[sqlrob]

Any state I've dealt with has a Non-Driver's ID already.

Re:Benefit--voter registration

[Sentry21]

2. Driver's Licenses can be just for drivers: So, so many Americans who can't drive (for reasons including age, disability, etc.) fight to maintain their driver's licenses because it's HARD to participate in society and commerce without one. A national ID card would provide all persons with an ID that merchants wouldn't question -- and no need for a driving test. Furthermore, people who know that they're unsafe, incapable drivers would have an alternative to keeping their licenses. This would allow them to avoid the temptation to drive.

I second this one. I don't have a driver's license, and don't have any plans to ever get one. I live in Canada, but I move around so much within Canada that it's too much trouble to get one - most provinces require you to live there six months before you can get a license, but I haven't lived in one province for six months for *ages*.

Normally, this wouldn't matter (I don't feel like paying to get it renewed anyway), but so many (stupid) businesses out there are requiring one. I walked into Rogers Video last year and wanted to rent a movie - but since their computer systems aren't interlinked, we had no account at that branch, and they required a driver's license. I had a passport, far harder to get than a license, and still they said no.

PC Financial, same thing. You need a BC ID card or a BC Driver's license (BCID is basically a license that doesn't let you drive, for all intents and purposes). No passport, no mail with your name and address on it, no nothing. ONLY a BCID/license. Heck, even my old Alberta learner's (which is like four years old and probably expired) wouldn't do there.

The Canadian government is implementing an ID card for immigrants - a government-issued picture ID with biometrics (fingerprint) on the card, as well as a magnetic strip and two lines of text like you see on passports:

PCANUDEYDANIELJAMES etc.

I'm hoping hoping hoping that this is extended to cover the rest of the population. The reason they're only applying it to the immigrants (this was started before 9.11 but was much more popular afterwards) at the moment isn't terrorism, bur rather because the old documents (not ID, documents, papers) were absurdly easy to forge, so they're modernizing it entirely.

I don't care if I have a card that everyone is required to use. I mean, if you have a driver's license, don't you need to always use that anyway? In Canada, you do (you only give your SIN out to places that give you money - banks, business, etc, credit card apps - and the government. no one else even asks). What I want is a card that businesses can't refuse to accept. I'm tired of being dicked around by local policies that change from city to city and require different ID depending on the sun in the sky and the phase of the moon.

Consistency is the way.

--Dan

What's everyone worried about?

[altgrr]

If the Government chooses to keep such information about you, that's fine. I for one would find life much easier if my health records were accessible to every doctor's surgery - when I come home from uni, I have to re-register if I want a doctor's appointment.

Far, far more important that the storage of such data is who is allowed to retrieve it. For example, if there were to be a medical study, you might expect that your health records (relevant parts thereof), gender, age, region and the kind of conurbation you live in (village/town/city etc) were made available, but no personal identifiers.

I find it far more of an invasion of privacy that my telephone and e-mail contacts are abused by people or companies wanting to sell their wares for me. The only reason we might be afraid of a centralised data repository is that it could be hacked. I would contend that, providing appropriate measures are taken, and that photographs are not stored on the database, there is nothing to be afraid of.

Re:What's everyone worried about?

[InternalWave]

It comes down to, how do you define privacy anyway? What are you, as an individual, concerned about keeping private?

Here's some possibly hypothetical cases, that may or may not be an issue in your area right now. Imagine your reaction to each:

1. You commit an indiscretion and contract an STD. It gets treatment, and you're clean again. Do you want every IT worker in the health system (doctor's office, hospitals, insurance companies) accessing this record? Maybe one of them knows your parents...
2. You have a conviction for assault on your record. It's 10 years old, you served a bit of time, and it's only because you had a substandard lawyer and no money that you got convicted at all. And in fact the actual offense consisted of a single punch after provocation (which original provocation went unwitnessed). Does every prospective employer need to know about this?
3. You are checking out certain material from the library, or buying certain books from the store...does law enforcement need to know what you're reading?
4. Systems are put in place to track purchases of alcohol and tobacco against the Number. Insurance companies have access to this information. And you are buying and pounding down way more booze than is good for you. But you never get in the car after drinking. You get refused driver's insurance, or the rate gets jacked up, because of "reasonable suspicion".
5. All the posts you have made to certain politics newsgroups get gathered and analyzed by the police, against your email address, which is then correlated to you by asking your ISP. And you've not been complementary about the government...you get paid a visit by the cops.

These are possible privacy issues. Some may not be concerns now, and may never be. But they could be. Anyone of us can think of many more possible cases. As the above poster said, it's partially a case of who is allowed to retrieve it. But it's also a question of what gets gathered.

It's also a question of what gets retrieved. I am not knee-jerk about keeping all personal info private, and I don't even mind information sharing and cross-referencing to a degree, but I _do_ want the information to be depersonalized most of the time. I mean, do you really need your employer's wife, who works at the Health department, finding out that you, by name, have undergone treatments for substance abuse? And she is only assigned to data entry tasks? Probably not.

A lot of times when people start hypothesizing like this, the typical reaction from some unimaginative or narrow-minded people is, "if you have nothing to hide then..." Well, that's a crock. Number one, everyone has something to hide - it just may not be a tracked datum at the moment. But it could be. And before you get so blase, think about relatives and friends for a moment - you think that all of them are also as squeaky clean as you are? When something like this affects a child of yours, or a friend, then it's a different story...

Mind you, this kind of thing has always been a problem. Modern technology has little to do with it...most places and most times people knew a heck of a lot about you. So in this respect, we (at least in North America in the year 2002) are operating with a bit of tunnel vision.

Re:What's everyone worried about?

[BlackHawk]

I find it far more of an invasion of privacy that my telephone and e-mail contacts are abused by people or companies wanting to sell their wares for me. The only reason we might be afraid of a centralised data repository is that it could be hacked. I would contend that, providing appropriate measures are taken, and that photographs are not stored on the database, there is nothing to be afraid of.

I suppose it's too much to hope you're joking. Out of curiosity, where do you think those telemarketers and spammers are getting your contact information in the first place? There are several states (Michigan comes to mind immediately) that have no law prohibiting the state government from selling the data they collect to any business who buys it. The fear that the centralized databased could be cracked is actually minor. After all, why break in, when you can slip the doorman a large enough payment, and have him open the door for you?

In addition, given the current climate of terror running amuck in the US ever since 9-11 and the passage of the so-called Patriot Act, there will be little resistance in the halls of the legislature to idea of some kind of biometric data attached to the central record. Whether that's a photo, a retinal print or a genetic sequence would remain to be seen.

Re:I love systems like this

[yatest5]

blah blah I'm more clever than any agency I can fake my own ID blah blah

Which is what you do all the time right? Which is why you're an international playboy with milions of dollars, right? Just taking time out of nobbing Helena Christensen to post your get rich quick secrets on slashdot?

Right?

European National ID systems

[Mansing]

I have read several posts from people residing in other countries. It seems that, for the most, part all have national ID systems in place. Most have also claimed that this is a workable system and not an invasion of privacy.

My question would be how of these countries have strict laws prohibiting the sale or release of the national ID system information? Most of my concern over a national ID is not with the identification per se, but what could be done with the information later.

The US has had many, many historical abuses of privacy and private information (McCarthy-ism, Hoover's FBI) that raises concerns to the public. These abuses are not long in the past for the US, and make US citizens think twice about the government holding all that information.

And when a Senator is "puchased" by a rich lobby, how long will it be before the information is "for sale" because of legislation?

Finland and Sweden are very different from the US

[SgtChaireBourne]

First, the Social Security Account Number is not public info nor is it an identification number. Despite attempts by many companies and organizations to use it as such.

Secondly, the public ID system in Sweden and Finland works very well because the cultural values are quite different than the U.S. The number itself is public and in general openness is much more valued and abuse of the number will be relatively quickly discovered and dealt with. A specific example would be tax info. For such a system to work in the U.S. tax info would have to enter the public domain like in Sweden. Too many have way too much to hide to allow that to happen.

To go off on a tangent to illustrate the openness, a lot of EU material is ordered from Sweden from UK citizens because freedom of information is part of the culture, having been written as separate article, Offentlighetsprincipen, of the constitution back in 1766. It makes the U.S. freedom of information act look pretty small and pale and tax records are not included. The UK and France have everything default to being closed for 30 years. Given that the life of magnetic tape (not to address the data format) is generally less than 10 years even under optimal storage conditions, this has a lot of ramifications.

Offentlighetsprincipen could have saved the EU quite a lot of embarassement and expenses.

Don't bother, Big Brother's not for tomorrow...

[Arkan]

As mentioned in previous (and surely following) posts, this kind of PIN (as in Personal Identification Number) already exists in some form or another in many countries. In fact, I doubt that any country with a social security system can do without such a number.

The danger of these primary keys are not their existence, but the amount of data you can obtain when knowing them. For instance, how much a problem can it be is the social security file contains only your name/birthdate/gender?
Now imagine that you could (and at least here in France, it's technically impossible: even the social security services can't find their way in their own files!) correlate with a given PK the whole life of a person: from is medical history to his credit card log? Here is the real danger!
Fortunatly for us, such a thing is far from achievable for three reasons:
- the different databases are not interconnected, making a correlation a pain in the cheek
- access to some of these databases is restricted, as in "please show me sufficient proof of your identity to access your own information". You'll certainly have more information from news papers archives
- the PK mentionned above is only used in just a few files, all the others mainly indexed on your firstname/lastname. Yeah, regularly someone "dies" in place of someone else...

Add to this the cluelessness of government services regarding technology as a whole, and before they come to know anything about relationnal databases, we'll all be far more controled and filed by RIAA/MPAA and affiliates.

--
Arkan

Re:Don't bother, Big Brother's not for tomorrow...

[acceleriter]

If only you were right. However, in most cases of "sensitive" databases in the U.S. indexed on SSN, someone's only a four-figure bribe to an $8/hour clerk away from the information he seeks.

IRS has figured out table joins.

[peter303]

Not until about 1990 or so. But forget a 1099 or W2 and you'll hear from them. (States seem o be faster at this.)

The problem

[evbergen]

The problem is of course not the fact that your national government keeps your identity in a database in order to be able to issue passports and drivers licenses and to collect taxes and social insurances.

And neither would I consider it a problem that credit companies decide to share a database containing people with bad debts, as long as there are some good laws governing access to it (e.g. the organization maintaining the database is not allowed to share it with companies that do not have a banking license, and there must be an expiry date).

The problem is that the government's ID number is much too "convenient" for commercial purposes if no restrictions are put on its use, because the state guarantees unicity and life-long validity.

So, the shared use of such a number is the problem, because suddenly all kinds of commercial entities have a means to match their user databases. And if the same unique key can be used on a number of databases, then those databases effectively form a single database.

To prevent that, any democratic government should explicitly forbid the use of national IDs in commercial applications, forcing commercial entities to keep their own databases.

Commercial entities should also be prohibited to share any personal information (that is, anyting uniquely linked to a person) with other entities without explicit, prior consent, where you'd indicate exclusively what information you allow to be shared. That's the only way to prevent them from simply teaming up to set up a private version of the social security number, mandating it for every transaction.

I see no reason why the public would want to help companies to track a person's identity and share it with others. If the government does, it's simply not acting on behalf of the public.

We've got to start giving some counter pressure to those "mark of the beast" plans that are perverted commercial interests masquerading as ways to fight terrorism.

The reason for the hubbub

[zaren]

(NOTE: Anyone with firsthand experience on the Japanese system, please correct if if I'm wrong, these are just the ramblings of a gaijin reading the news from inside the U.S.)

From what I read on the Japanese news sites, the problem is that this is a single nationwide database that will be available online, similar to the one that has been discussed in the recent past in the U.S. There's a great deal of concern about network hacking and identity theft.

From an article on the issue:

The system will link basic residency registries across the country by encoding information such as people's names, addresses, dates of birth and gender under 11-digit individual numbers. It will enable people to receive social benefits, such as children's allowances and pensions, without their resident cards, the government said. Officials also said the network will simplify administrative procedures, such as passport issuance, in the future.

People say "Well, the US already has this in their Social Security number"... but a SS# is only part of the formula. To really do damage to someone the way the U.S. system operates, you need a few more pieces of information, like a driver's license number, bank account information, etc. Thankfully, the "American way" is to build your own system if you don't like someone else's (or even if you do like it, but want the credit for yourself), so there's a lot of gridlock and problems with getting data from one point to another between various state and national gov't agencies.

Imagine how much identity theft would occur in the U.S. if there was one single database available online with all of this information, considering what OS the gov't would likely use to run such a database.

Also, Japanese citizens already carry "resident cards". Ths is a similar concept to someone from the U.S. already having a SS# - why would they want or need ANOTHER government sponsored ID card? It's just another system where personal information can be stored and possibly accessed by someone that's not supposed to have it. Add to that the natural reluctance to having any government agency "keeping an eye" on them, and you can see the reason for the concern.

credit scamming trick

[peter303]

This is the major trick for "eliminating debt" if you ever click-though those spam mails. Credit companies "lose you" when the number is changed.

Kuwait

[plumby]

From what is described, it's quite different to the SSN (certainly as used in the UK). It sounds much closer to the PACI (Public Authority for Civil Information) database that is used in Kuwait. This is much more than an ID number. The database contains detailed records about you (such as address/marital status/number of children), and you are expected to keep it up to date.

One example of how it used differently is in credit bureaux (which is where I came across it when we were developing one for a Kuwaiti bank). In the UK, when you apply for a loan, you give them your name and address, and this information is sent to the credit bureau to attempt to find your details. In Kuwait, you give them your PACI number, and the credit bureau will connect into the PACI database to retrieve any information that is wanted.

Any system that wants to uniquely identify someone can just store this number, and rely on the PACI system to get the person's current address.

In normal use, this is very sensible thing. You need to tell one place that you've moved. Everyone else's system will automatically be updated. However, when Kuwait was invaded, it became an extremely useful tool to track down anyone that the Iraqis were after.

The most important thing of all

[Greenrider]

(name, address, date of birth, gender, possibly more data)

You know...it wouldn't be Japan if they didn't put blood type somewhere on there.

balance of power?

[Aliks]

So if there is an error in your records, you have to do all the work to correct it.

If the bank, doctor, insurance company, supermarket thinks something bad about you, you have to find out about it, find out how to complain, explain your reasons for complaining etc.

Most people don't do this unless its a serious matter like being refused credit. But in fact the price you are quoted by a vendor can be affected by what they know, or think they know. Having the ability to recognise you by a unique ID gives a lot of power to companies and they are not slow to use it. This is probably not illegal, or even immoral, but if I am forced to negotiate with someone for purchase of a product or service, I don't want them to have an armlock on me before I start.

I would like to decide how much I tell them about myself, and when to tell it, not the other way round.

Wait till you read this

[Beautyon]

[...]
Now this is the beginning of activation for Japan's national ID systems: 11
digit number national ID, networked resident record system based on the ID
numbers, and national ID card that based on contactless radio transaction
smartcard, with 32 bit CPU and co-processor supposed to handle crypto and
digital signature, which will be issued from 2003.

This status makes computer security specialists worried. If organized
crimes or foreign spy agents get access to one of these, that could be a
disaster. Clear and present danger is here now. World class crackers might
be difficult to ignore temptations to try their penetration skills on this
network because it is built on Windows NT/2000 servers and possibly MS SQL.
You got the idea?
[...]

my bold emphasis (as if you needed it)

Taken from Politech.

Amazing ay?

Re:Wait till you read this

[Ioldanach]

Windows NT/2000 servers and possibly MS SQL.

Oh, in that case, citizens needn't worry. A good percentage of them will be lost anyways, pretty quickly.

Actually we Brits have two ID numbers

[rpjs]

Firstly, we have a National Insurance (NI) Number which is equivalent to the US SSN and is used to track your income tax and NI (payroll tax) payments. You don't need one to work, but it makes employed life a lot easier.

Getting an NI number if you're not born here can be difficult. My girlfriend is an EU citizen living in the UK (nearly 2 years) now and stil can't persaude the social security people to give her one. She recently had a letter from the Inland Revenue (IRS-equiv) asking her for her NI number so they can make sure her income tax and NI is correctly accounted for.

<sigh> well at least it shows that Big Brother will always be defeated by good old fashioned British incompetence.

The other ID number we have is the National Health Service (NHS) number. This you get at birth or, if you're not British-born but legally resident, on registration with your local doctor. My girlfriend had no trouble at all getting one - she just presented her EU passport at the surgery and stated that she was living in the area and wanted to register with a doctor, they wrote down the passport details and her new NHS card turned up with mine (you get a new one whenever you change doctor).

Originally a continuation of the old wartime ID card number scheme (ID cards were abolished in 1952) they appear to have changed the NHS numbers recently to a new series - when we moved to London two years ago I got a brand new NHS number in a new format. It appears to bear no relation to my NI number and the govt doesn't, yet, officially do data matching between the two.

Apparently it is about what government you have.

[Dog and Pony]

It seems that US citizens think that their government actually would use this to somehow harm their citizens - in Europe, there is no such fear (apart from perhaps a few really paraniod guys I would presume, and they always find something to be afraid of).

I guess that is a fair fear, given that from what you hear from US citizens, the US is, for all the talk about the land of the free, one of the most non-free, controlled countries apart from actual dictatorships. I don't know if that is so, but it sure sounds like it when they talk about it.

Well, anyhow, if you live in fear of your own government, isn't it time to do something about it?

I can assure you, that at least over here, citizens and business both almost only benefit from being registered, as many other have pointed out. The only thing that is bad for you that I can come up with, is that businesses and landlords etc. will know if you are a fuck-up with lots of debts, which if you think of it, also really is a good thing for the most part. Meaning that ppl that pay their way get to rent the apts and buy the stereos, and stores have less problem getting their cash for the things they sell. It is possible they are a bit too harsh though on that part (one strike and you are gone for a few years, economically - that sucks), and need to lighten up - but the thought is, I guess, good.

Paranoia?

[jtdubs]

OMG!! The MAN knows my name! The people who issued me a social security number and a birth certificate and whom I pay taxes to!

The birth certificate of course already includes my name, gender and date of birth.

The tax form, of course, involves giving them my address.

So, now they've taken a bunch of information I was already giving them and put it in a central repository and assigned a number (called a KEY! sound scary, doesn't it!) to each record.

So, now I can use that number.

OMG! What is they find me! What if the government that is run by and for the people that I take part in in this great democracy knows my name and address! Maybe they'll come for me next!!

Get a grip people,

Justin Dubs

Identity numbers

[Twylite]

Every time someone mentions identity numbers, the YRO group gets up and slits their wrists. Why? Like it or not, you are identified every day but several numbers that you don't argue about, and probably have less control over.

Let's start with the basics. Every country needs a central population register. If it doesn't have one, it can't recognise its citizens and afford them their rights; or take action to protect itself against illegal immigrants; or issue you with a passport. At the very least that system has your legal name (at birth) and your date of birth. Without an entry in that system you can't prove your age or citizenship.

Now, as every database expert should know, full name and birth date do not have to be unique within a population. Therefore this "database" will include a unique number for every person. Even if its not given to you or used somewhere, you still have an identity number.

Now let's look at the implications of using that number outside the system. First, you have a card which can be used for identification purposes. This has good and bad points. It can be used to secure your transactions (prevent fraud against you), but also to link you with a transaction (reducing privacy). The better the security system of the card, the more difficult it is to forge, and the better the trade-off.

The ID card also serves to verify age. This is pretty important. How do you *know* she is 16? How does a bank know you are old enough to have a credit card? Many establishments that require age verification use a credit card or driver's license, but just because you are of the legal age to obtain one of these doesn't mean you actually have one. Not to mention that the legal age for driving is different in various parts of the world, and in many places you can get a credit card at any age if your parents sign surety.

What about SSNs? They are commonly used for a variety of identification purposes, but are a very poor choice for this! Knowing an SSN is a direct route to being able to abuse an SSN (in most countries) -- it is a number you NEED to keep private, but the lack of a unified identification system often prevents that from happening.

The lack of an ID card doesn't prevent the linking up of various disparate systems. In fact, most of these systems have poor design from a privacy standpoint, as they never had it in mind. You bank WILL know your SSN, drivers license, name, home address, and preferred make of condoms if it wants to. An ID system does not make this any more or less difficult.

So what's the BAD part about mandatory ID cards? The government and/or industry may enact policies that require positive identification at a time when such identification should not be needed. And that is what privacy legislation is there to ensure does not happen.

I, for one, like the fact that I have an identity card which is REQUIRED (by law) to be produced in any interactions with the government for the purposes obtaining passports, etc, or when opening accounts with a bank. It requires a fair amount of effort to fraudulently open an account in my name or otherwise impersonate me, and electronically secured (i.e. digitally signed) ID cards will make that more difficult in the future.

On the other hand, I don't give my ID number out to people or institutions who don't require it. I am aware of the privacy implications of having that number, even if there is no publically accessible means of misusing it.

What's important to Americans isn't privacy.

[bons]

What's important to Americans isn't privacy.

It's the illusion of privacy.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that between names, addresses, social security numbers, credit cards, drivers licenses, and hosts of other identification methods, tracking someone isn't very difficult. You match up the information on their tax forms with the information from their credit card purchases with the information at various country offices and you're pretty much good to go.

It's like the lock on your car door. People lock their car doors because it makes them feel secure. But if they lock the keys in their car, they know they can call a locksmith and he'll have that door open in 60 seconds. What they don't think about (and what they don't want to think about) is that if a locksmith can open it up in 60 seconds then a good theif can do it in half the time, especially as the code required to make a new key is right there in plain sight.

For now Americans have the illusion of privacy. It makes them happy and it makes the job of those people who would gather information about them easier.

Re:What's important to Americans isn't privacy.

[Stonehand]

Rocket science won't help. It may, however, take a person with some familiarity of databases to realize that names, addresses, and many other identification methods are prone to variations, mistakes and coincidental near-matches (e.g. "John Q. Adams", "JOHN_ADAMS", "J. Q. Adams", "Adams, John Q.", "John Adams", "John Quincy Adams", "Jonathan Addams") that make many of them unsuitable for use as a join key -- at least with plain-jane algorithms and no preprocessing. Merging "intelligently" between heterogeneous databases is still an area of active research, as you might know if you glanced at all at the problem.

The main threat comes from unique numerical identifiers, because those make suitable primary keys and one might expect extremely few deliberate variations in their representations (IOW, mismatches would most likely be due to typos -- which might be minimal if the number is in a very sparse space and has checksumming so that random alterations are likely to be immediately detectable as invalid numbers).

You also have legal and practical issues with your examples; for instance, Visa is unlikely to share its CC data barring law enforcement action with regards to a specific card already under investigation. Much of the data on US citizens is commercial data, and is fairly well guarded in that the companies suspect that it's valuable; if a grocery store is offering discounts so it can data-mine your purchases, it's not going to want to give that information (or, even more so, what association rules it learns) freely to, say, its rivals, and the gov't has no business asking. It may sell your address to an advertiser as somebody possibly interested in their products, but that's about it. In fact, it's not unusual for a business to provide data to researchers, under a) nondisclosure rules, and b) a requirement that the business be treated as anonymous.

Re:What's important to Americans isn't privacy.

[13Echo]

Excellent theives are few and far between. Some punk that wants to steal your CDs is quite different.

Locks on auto doors are a deterrent for people that want to steal your stuff to buy smack. A good car theif, on the other hand, may very well have the ability to grind a key for nearly any vehicle. Repo-guys have these tools too.

Any door can be cracked. So can any computer. But it isn't wise to just leave it wide open for any old moron to access.

Re:What's important to Americans isn't privacy.

[bons]

But the databases don't contain a single key. Instead they contain multiple keys, which allows you to do a match easily enough. You would know this if you stepped out of academia long enough to take a look at the real world. The more keys you have, the more accurate the results, and most databases do their best to store as much information as possible.

And while Visa is unlikely to share it's credit card data, Visa is not the sole repository of credit card data. Transactions are stored at the merchant, the merchant bank, that bank's processor, visa, the cardholder's bank, and the cardholder's bank's processor. If the security at any of them is breached, then the data can quickly be released to the wild.

And while these organizations want their data secure, that is a far cry from keeping it secure as we have seen time and time again. In the case of the grocery store tracking your purchases, that data tracking is almost never done in house, but it's instead done by an external company that does the same type of data mining for a variety of businesses.

If data was as isolated as you believe and was limited in size to only a few simple fields, yes, it would become the non-trivial problem that is so popular in academia. Unfortunately, the data is widespead, detailed, and accessed daily as a cost of doing business.

Beware.

[hateddamntruth]

Everything starts out somewhat justifiably, but when the laws are passed to give those in government that power, you see the true color of those people in power. Yes, there are potential advantages to such a system - all activities will then be monitored. But this is also a *VERY* risky thing to just sign off on.

The problem comes in when the government starts requiring that number for essential livelihood, and monitoring all activities pertaining to every person in every activity. That gives them too much power. Power corrupts. Trust me. Look at history. Someday, when they make laws that are unfair, or against the rights of the individual (and trust me again, there are many that ARE out to get you, and are lobbying the government heavily to do so), enforcing these laws will become trivial, and attempting to reject them will be life-threatening. It would be naive to think that there isn't a lot to protect or lose, a lot of liberty in jeopardy, when the most powerful forces are so desperate to push such legislation. And it would be naive to think that the government is always working in the interest of the common man, and always on your side. (This is probably the most important point - That government itself is frequently untrustworthy.)

Take it or leave it. The future itself is in jeopardy. Beware what you are complacent about, who you vote for, and what you sign off on. A word is enough for the wise.

Re:Beware.

[Hektor_Troy]

Well, the system was put in place in 1968, which is 34 years ago for the mathematically impaired of you.

You also have to look at the Danish history and political system, before you can write off such a system in Denmark. In the US I would be very weary of it, because the political system basicaly forces you to be in the pockets of big business, but in Denmark, being wealthy and/or in the pockets of big business will usually get you about 10 votes.

Right now, our current government is dependant upon a party run by a former social care worker. When was the last time you could say that about the US government?

The danish political system is not any better or worse than the US system, it's just better suited for this kind of central registry, as it and the danish mentality will basicly lynch anyone who abuses it, and pat the lynch mob on the back afterwards.

We need a range...

[Quixadhal]

A single number won't cut it. I will need my own class C subnet for all the implants I'll have by the time it passes through congress. I guess my nanobots can be behind a masquarading firewall. :)

This is bad.

[Fross]

so your health records are linked to it too?

are there protections in place to stop companies obtaining this information? insurance companies, for instance. or how about, your prospective employer does a search on this information. sees, for instance, that you are HIV positive. and denies you the job on this ground.

The problem is that any _new_ system of this type is exactly that, new, and it is better to be vigilant when this sort of thing comes along. Who makes the rules? What is their motive?

If done well, it can be a good system. if done badly, it can be a huge threat to personal freedom, and perhaps unwilling and uncontrollable discolsure of sensitive information.

david

Mod this parent up, please

[Silverhammer]

Someone please mod this parent up. It summarizes the whole issue perfectly.

What I think that other countries dont get is....

[Darkninja666]

that Americans know first hand (and second, third) what can happen to freedom. I've seen many other posts on here from citizens of countries with a National ID, and they say that it doesn't hurt privacy and that its gold in their hands.

The problem (or potental problem) is that how do you assure that 1)the information is safe (from hackers,crackers,id thieves, goverment officals), 2)that it won't be used for evil (for example Nazis or the Soviet Union) and 3)that only the proper (read: legally held responsible ones) people have access to your data. I feel fear everytime I hear about this crap (even though it is currently in place anyway), because I don't want my local librarian or grocery store, knowing if I have an STD or I'm gay or I'm a smoker, or I'm a buddist or I'm a Christian or I'm overdrawn or I'm divorced, etc etc.

Americans for all their bitching, know that freedom is easy to lose (even though they passed the Goddamned USAPA). And even harder to get back. And you are also talking about some of the more enlightened ones (those that read slashdot), as they think about these things and understand the technology involved.

I have some questions for those in countries with national ids....Would you feel safe if you we in the Unpopular minority of your country? Do you think that that national registry, would protect you if they suddenly declared all (insert your favorite minority here) to be evil and must be cleansed from the earth for the good of your country?.....people rarely want to think scary thoughts.

Re:Speaking as a Military brat

[Kredal]

psst, he didn't enlist. He's either the offspring, or the wife of a military member.

Canadian SIN

[nuggz]

In Canada you have to have a SIN number to work.
It is used to track taxes, however unless someone pays you money they are basically not permitted to even ask for the number.

Side point is that they are starting to use tax records to help keep the voting lists up to date.

Re:Speaking as a Military brat

[Kredal]

Actually, given the current state of alert in the military, most bases are requiring 100% ID checks at the front gate, for civilians AND military... so if they live on base, any time he wants to leave to go shopping, out to eat, whatever, he'll have to show his ID.

Sucks and stuff.

Well applied privacy legislation...

[Balinares]

Well, we all know that this kind of ID already exists in many countries, and is called SS#.

Alright.

Now here's some food for thought:
In some countries (well, only one that I know of), storing personal information in a database is strictly regulated: among other things, you are NOT allowed to use a person's SS# as a database key.

And it works. Banks, insurance companies, etc, can drool over people SS#, but they just plain can't use it (unless they want to be in a lot of trouble -- that country seems to be less bigcorp-friendly than the U.S.).

This may or may not work in the U.S., but it's still an interesting thing to ponder, I think.

Bad? Oh, come on...

[Balinares]

> are there protections in place to stop
> companies obtaining this information?

Yep: it's just plain illegal. In a country where bigcorps don't have it as easy as in the U.S., it works very well.

I've lived in Denmark a while back, and they're socially well ahead of most other countries. It could be extremely profitable to admit that we're lagging behind, and try and see what they do well, and how. Instead of, say, assuming that because they don't do like us, it is 'bad'.

11 digits?

[happyclam]

OK, I'm going to show my ignorance here...

Are public keys unique? Could we not have a system where people's ID numbers are actually their public keys?

flame away for my lack of knowledge about encryption technology...

Re:11 digits?

[happyclam]

no, no... I meant why do all these IDs consist of a small number of digits? why not use a great number of digits and have the id = the person's public key? (i.e. issue everyone their set of keys and have their public key double as their id)

Confusion of privacy and anonymity

[bigmouth_strikes]

This story and most comments seem to equate 'privacy' with 'anonymity'. That is not the case, however. In fact, the distinction between them is a true measure of privacy. In the US, companies are using your personal information for their own purposes and it is hard to stop them sometimes. With all the credit cards, SSN, taxpayer ID number, drivers license etc etc information out there leaving a trail of you, Americans should be more concerned about how that information is used. The companies or the govn't have little trouble identifying you uniquely as it is, it just takes them some time. Having a single unique ID#, would facilitate this necessary process. Americans should concentrate on legislation on how personal information can be used and accessed.

For instance, like mentioned elsewhere, Sweden has had a unique ID for quite some time (50+ years). But there is also a very strict legislation on how this data can be used. You can always request to see your own records from all databases, save the security police (CIA). The government cannot use the data to find out who lives on social welfare but still drives expensive cars and boats, and thus might be receiving welfare on the wrong basis.

I'm certain that it is more crucial that legislation regarding our personal data is crucial for privacy, rather than obstructing a single unique ID over the plethora of IDs we now have in America.

Whatever Happened to Starting Over?

[gdyas]

My problem with all ideas like this is that there's a great tradition, at least in America, of the fresh start. Since the first Puritans hit the shore after longstanding poor relationships with their previous neighbors in England, we've been a group of people who've always felt that if we'd completely made a fool of ourselves where we were we could always pick up & go somewhere else. Give it another go without all the baggage of history.

Of course, I'm not talking about dodging your bad credit or anything illegal -- just going off to somewhere like Seattle, where the weather's different, the names of the streets are strange, nobody knows who you are or where you're from, and you can be, not who you'd like to pretend to be, but who you really are because you're unencumbered of the weight of your past transgressions. What's wrong with that?

Well, I guess for some in gov't, quite a bit. If we ever get an ID here, I think by far the worst aspect of it would be the destruction of this element in American life. Everything you've done -- every traffic ticket, every place you've lived, every bad job you quit after a few months -- will be easily available to anyone with a decent excuse for looking. You'll no longer be able to erase all that history if you like -- you'll have to carry it around with you, with all of us. I believe it'll drag on us and make us a less vital, less industrial country where your past is examined in detail before decisions are made about you. And eventually it's back to the old days of 18th century Europe, where you were denied a position or place amongst friends because of who your family is, or was.

All in all, the fact that we forget things and fragments of history get lost in the swirl of day-to-day living -- that's a good thing. It lets us live now, not 20 years ago when we were young & irresponsible. I'd really like to keep that part of our lives.

Europe continues to scare me...

[Guppy06]

Reading all of the moderated posts in this article from all the happy Europeans with their ID system sends a cold chill up my spine. Most of their statements in support of a national ID system go something like this:

• EU-member-state-X has had a national ID system in effect for years. The government has the ability to know where I am, what I'm doing there and who I'm doing it with.
• I have no complains and I haven't heard of any either

My God! Don't you see the possible relation between those two statements? Are you that blind? Here, let me pull up an analogy that's sure to piss you off enough to get your attention:

• The German government established an identification system for all Jews, gypsies, communists, homosexuals, etc. so that they could know where they are, what they're doing there and who they're doing it with
• Nobody knew of any complaints

Before you can make a complaint about something you need to be in a situation where you are comfortable to make that complaint. And you just can't make a complaint when you have to fight to be heard over the din of "Four legs good, two legs bad!"

Do you think my little Orwellian metaphor is too harsh? Take a look at all the posts here that have been modded up to 5 that are in support of the ID system. You'll see words like "ridiculous," "ludicrous," "silly," "short-sighted," and any number of other words and phrases that indicate just how little credence the authors of those posts are giving to the system's detractors.

I could go on and on about the numerous policies and practices in the EU that scare me, but instead I'll just leave you with this thought: French voters handily abandoned their individual choices for the French president to support a man like Chirac (a man that can make Berlusconi seem downright respectable), all becuase some right-wing looney managed to scrape together a mere 20% of the vote. A victory for a democratic Europe, or a victory of the majority in crushing minority dissidence?

UK! You're the last bastion of sanity over there! Get out while you still can!

Good post. Thanks.

[Fantastic Lad]

Your post contains exactly the kind of information people should be made aware of in these sorts of discussions; the results of a previous implementation of a bad idea.

Thank you!

-Fantastic Lad

What about "non-gender" people?

[peter303]

One out of 2000 people are born with ambiguious genitalia, either through misdevelopment or chromosome ambiguity. About one in 200 people psychologically dont agree with their physical gender.
The growing consensus is to let the ambiguous child select their own gender as they grow older, rather than to assign one at birth. Assignment fails in half of the cases.

Re:What about "non-gender" people?

[Hektor_Troy]

So? You just issue another CPR-number; it's not that difficult.

This is done to every person who undergoes a sex-change, so why not to those people as well?

The funny thing about the CPR-system we have, is that it seems to me, that for every attack you people throw at it, it already has a built in defence. It only has two legit problems as of now:
1) Number of children that can be born per day in Denmark; and to use the example above, if you can assign numbers to 3,000 children each day, that leaves you with 1,095,000 and considdering the danish population of ~5 million people I'd say that is a non-problem.
2) Invasion of the country, and to be honest I don't see that as a problem, as we'd have a lot of other problems to worry about instead.

This is a system that has been around since 1968; it has had 34 years to mature and be protected as best possible while we have had no less than 6 different governments.

Is it perfect? Probably not. Is it the rocky horror show, that most people perceive such systems to be? Absolutely not.

quick ID number verification necessary

[peter303]

Part of the reason that imposters, such as a third of the 9-11 terrorists and illegal immigrants, get away with fake SS#, back accounts, jobs, theft, etc. is that SS often are not verified. Checking obtains the simple biometrics of age, sex, and birth place. More sophisticated biometrics could be attached to the ID too. Of course, everything could be gotten around, but these simple measures would catch most of the current problems.

The difference between us and them

[rossz]

Read the comments. The Europeans say, "we've had this for years, what's the problem?" We Americans say, fuck this! I'm not going to let the government track me like sheep."

We Americans tend to be distrustful of governments. I think this is a good thing. When you start trusting the government too much, you let them get away with too much.

Look at the U.K. They trusted too much. Now they have cameras everywhere, a complete ban on guns (although the criminals have no problem finding them), and it is virtually illegal to defend yourself. As a result, violent crime is spiraling out of control. Of course, their solution is even more control of the subjects, further erosion of rights, and another step (or two) to the perfectly controlled society.

Meanwhile, we paranoid Yanks get pissed every time the government suggests national I.D.s or tries to implement gun control. The violent crime rate has been falling for several decades.

Re:The difference between us and them

[rossz]

I can justify it simply by looking at the crime figures for the U.K. The number of gun crimes have shot up since the total ban was put in place. In Britain, ALL violent crimes have been rising at an alarming rate. Where do I get this info? From the United Nations report on Crime in Europe.

Numbers?

[AnotherBlackHat]

I'm not as scared of the idea that the government wants to give me a number,
as I am by the idea that the government will track me without needing a number.

-- this is not a .sig

Why Americans worry about the ID number

[lildogie]

The U.S. government has a history of abusing its citizens based on itentity as:

- Viet-nam war protesters
- Communist Sympathizers
- Descendants of Japanese immigrants
- Not being "caucasian"

That's just off-the-cuff by someone who didn't pay much attention in high-school history.

If you look around European history, you'll find times and places where people were put on a list and rounded up, ostensibly for the common good, but actually to be made victims of crimes against humanity. And I'm not talking just about Naziism.

Just because the key database doesn't have certain personal facts in it doesn't protect you. Once the identifier is created, it's all of the _other_ databases that can start to be kept. Who your parents are, what your religion is, what your political party is, what diseases you have, whether you vote.

A government that protects it's people from abuses could provide assurances that this would not get out of hand. However, some of us live in countries where the government has been the abuser, not the protecter

Naturally, in such countries, we're skeptical about whether we're ready to have a handy-dandy identifier so people can index all sorts of interesting "facts" about us.

the US should scare you

[g4dget]

The German government established an identification system for all Jews, gypsies, communists, homosexuals, etc. so that they could know where they are, what they're doing there and who they're doing it with

So? The US has had registers of Jews, gypsies, communists, homosexuals, etc. as well. This was particularly popular in the US between the 1930's and 1960's, complete with government-sponsored blackmail and employment discrimination. The US had no problems putting Japanese-Americans into camps in WWII without a national ID system. And a century earlier, the US had no problem tracking down American Indians.

The simple fact is that having a national ID system has little to do with privacy or lack thereof. Privacy legislation has to do with privacy. And what protects your from government abuse of power is not the ability to hide in some hole somewhere, it is creating a democratic and responsible government. By the time you have to hide in some hole somewhere (probably toting a gun), hiding from your government, it's already too late.

What should really scare you is the US. The US government is becoming increasingly corrupt and undemocratic. And Americans blissfully and ignorantly throw away their civil rights and privacy rights because the US government manipulates them into a hysteria about terrorism (it used to be the cold war; maybe it will be space aliens next year).

That is something we need to do something about. If it comes down to whether Ashcroft's goons can find you to make you disappear in some government holding cell without due process, you have already lost, ID card or not.

You should also worry about privacy violations by US companies, which are largely unregulated. They can wreck your life with various forms of discrimination, and you are nearly powerless to get the data, let alone challenge it.

Europeans understand privacy and totalitarianism much better than Americans--Europeans have lived through it. It's the Americans that are at risk of repeating the European mistakes because Americans are so blissfully ignorant of it all and think that it just can't happen here.

Re:the US should scare you

[Guppy06]

"This was particularly popular in the US between the 1930's and 1960's, complete with government-sponsored blackmail and employment discrimination."

Sounds like you're referencing McCarthyism. It might be interesting to know that McCarthy was slammed by the rest of the Senate not long afterwards and was all but removed from office.

Until the Cold War communists pretty much had free reign in the country. As I recall they brought a lot of attention to themsevlves during the whole Scottsboro affair, when they hired a lawyer (Jewish, no less) to defend the boys accused of rape.

I never said that nothing bad happens in the US, I'm trying to point out that when something wrong does happen, it rarely goes by without a lot of people complaining loudly until the problem gets solved. At the very least voicing a complaint in the EU is more difficult in the US, with anti-speech laws (even anti-government speech) more resembling those of the Middle East and North Africa than of the US.

"The simple fact is that having a national ID system has little to do with privacy or lack thereof. Privacy legislation has to do with privacy. And what protects your from government abuse of power is not the ability to hide in some hole somewhere, it is creating a democratic and responsible government."

Democracy is a pretty name for mob rule. The more democratic a culture is, the more power is given to the majority to quiet minority opinion. We're talking about the same system of government that voted the hemlock one day and the statues the next.

As for privacy issues, you seem to ignore the issue of privacy from your own government against unreasonable search and seizure. Every bit of information that the government is legally required to know is one less bit of information that needs to be pulled kicking and screaming from a judge. Compulsory national ID cards are little more than an overbroad blanket search warrant.

Power corrupts. Period. Sooner or later that information your government has will be abused, and the only guaranteed way to prevent that is no not let them have all that information to begin with. Relying on privacy laws is little more than hoping that the government (who both holds the information and makes such laws to begin with) won't abuse their power this particular election term.

"By the time you have to hide in some hole somewhere (probably toting a gun), hiding from your government, it's already too late."

It's interesting to note that that option is outright illegal in most European countries. You are not legally allowed to hide from your government whether you wanted to or not (with or without a gun). I find a government that outlaws hiding more disturbing than a government that would give reason to hide. Heck, outlawing privacy in that respect in and of itself is the best reason to try to hide.

"The US government is becoming increasingly corrupt and undemocratic."

IMO, it is becoming corrupt because it is getting too democratic. Modifications of the federal constitution to allow direct election of senators and nearly-direct election of the president have guaranteed that only those who can afford media exposure become elected.

"And Americans blissfully and ignorantly throw away their civil rights and privacy rights because the US government manipulates them into a hysteria about terrorism (it used to be the cold war; maybe it will be space aliens next year)."

Conveniently enough, those are also the same Americans that tend not to vote.

Oh, and in case you haven't noticed, less than a year after the attacks various civil rights and special interests groups are making headway against those policies. Already the federal government is being forced to name names of those they have in Camp X-ray. Americans have the right to bitch and moan about our government and we're often listened to instead of silenced (since we also happen to be in the 50% of people that vote).

And while we're on the topic of power abuses via a boogey man, the US gets attacked last September, and European governments use it as an excuse to all but seal their borders. Neat trick! AFAIK, the only real effect the 9/11 attacks have had on US immigration policy is that pending reforms of our policy with Mexico has been put on the back burner.

"You should also worry about privacy violations by US companies, which are largely unregulated. They can wreck your life with various forms of discrimination, and you are nearly powerless to get the data, let alone challenge it."

While it may be difficult, I am given the legal option of not disclosing my information to begin with. Not an option in Europe. And if I don't like a corporation, I can avoid doing business with them. But you can't avoid a government you don't like if for no other reason than they're the people you have to get a passport from.

"Europeans understand privacy and totalitarianism much better than Americans--Europeans have lived through it."

If Europeans learned from their mistakes as you claim, Dutch troops probably wouldn't have allowed Srebrenica to happen...

"It's the Americans that are at risk of repeating the European mistakes because Americans are so blissfully ignorant of it all and think that it just can't happen here."

As I mentioned before, while enforcement of policy has changed dramatically, the policy itself on immigration and visas and such have not. This is in stark contrast to European governments like Denmark that have used the attacks to all but declare every non-European in the place persona-non-grata.

When all is said and done the US is still a patchwork conglomeration of opposing peoples and ideals, and not even 9/11 has succeeded in creating a unified front where every American can agree on one thing. When you get right down to it, what frightens me most about Europe is how totally sterile and uniform the culture is. Too many people agree on too many things to be healthy, establishing an environment that's ripe for absuses against the "others" that just don't fit into the totalitarian majority.

Re:the US should scare you

[g4dget]

I never said that nothing bad happens in the US, I'm trying to point out that when something wrong does happen, it rarely goes by without a lot of people complaining loudly until the problem gets solved.

What does that have to do with national ID cards? My point is that the US government, when it wants to, can keep files on people and intern them without national ID cards.

Democracy is a pretty name for mob rule. The more democratic a culture is, the more power is given to the majority to quiet minority opinion.

Is that what they taught you in school? No wonder, then. In Europe, people are quite clear about the fact that democracy means protection of minorities.

As for privacy issues, you seem to ignore the issue of privacy from your own government against unreasonable search and seizure. Every bit of information that the government is legally required to know is one less bit of information that needs to be pulled kicking and screaming from a judge. Compulsory national ID cards are little more than an overbroad blanket search warrant.

A national ID card and number doesn't contain any information the government doesn't already have. But it is a tool I, as a citizen, can use to protect my privacy. With a national ID card and number, a government agency can't hide and say "uh, sorry, we can't get at that information conveniently".

IMO, it is becoming corrupt because it is getting too democratic. Modifications of the federal constitution to allow direct election of senators and nearly-direct election of the president have guaranteed that only those who can afford media exposure become elected.

I agree that direct elections are problematic. I disagree that they equal "more democracy", for the same reason that you name.

Conveniently enough, those are also the same Americans that tend not to vote.

Bush won by almost a majority. Clearly, a lot of voters seem quite happy to throw away their rights and follow a seemingly benign (or, in this case, simply dopey) leader.

If Europeans learned from their mistakes as you claim, Dutch troops probably wouldn't have allowed Srebrenica to happen...

I'm sorry, but I don't follow that. What does a propensity, or lack thereof, of meddling in other countries' affairs have to do with defense of freedom and liberty in one's home country?

As I mentioned before, while enforcement of policy has changed dramatically, the policy itself on immigration and visas and such have not.

Oh? What rock have you been hiding under?

When you get right down to it, what frightens me most about Europe is how totally sterile and uniform the culture is. Too many people agree on too many things to be healthy, establishing an environment that's ripe for absuses against the "others" that just don't fit into the totalitarian majority.

Funny, that is just what frightens Europeans about America. Of course, in the US, the manipulation of the "totalitarian majority" is privatized, as is much of the government, but that doesn't make the effects any less insidious. In fact, it makes it worse because it places such manipulation beyond the reaches of democratic control. And people like you are cheer-leading it on, deluding themselves into the belief that they stand for the defense of liberty and individual freedom.

you answered the question.

[No-op]

None of those things are items that I personally want or feel the Gov't should know about me... and you answered the question yourself-

If you don't trust your governement, maybe is it a sign that you need another one...

biometrics

[s4m7]

what is far more frigtening than the nationalization of our id system (which is already pretty damn draconian, i've known several people who have been arrested because they were unable to prove who they were at the time), is the fact that there is already legislation in place currently that says that if states don't adopt biometric information into their driver's liscences by i believe 2006, they lose their federal highway money. sure wish i could remember a citation here, but IANAL.

Its all about trust

[Damaged Brain]

I've been reading the arguments for and against a national ID card and came to the conclusion that the Europeans and Americans don't understand each others standpoint because Europeans simply trust their government more than Americans ever will. Seriously, being an American, I trust my government to do nothing but take my money and fill my life with meaningless laws and forms. Americans might seem a bit upitty about defending every little bit of our liberties because the government scares the living bejesus out of us. Granted, im not saying that America is on the verge on anarchy, Its just the way the system works.

Re:OT: Taxes

[avdp]

I would suggest that most countries that did create some sort of federal healthcare system have succeeded very well at it. As a european that has experienced this type of system first hand (I am in the US now, and now the other system as well), I can tell you pretty much the only one that has a really bad rep is the one in England... (I am sure there are others, the point is, they're in the minority rather than the majority)

The point of federal healthcare is not as much for those that can afford it but for the large majority of the people that would not have it otherwise. And by the way, for most people that can afford it (and THAT is becoming harder and harder in the US) it's mostly HMOs which is probably similar (if not worse) than most of the federal systems which you claim are so bad.

Re:OT: Taxes

[avdp]

Taxes are high in europe, there is no doubt about that. But it wouldn't be fair to blame it all on socialized medicine. There are lots of other services provided by these socialist governments. More services does means higher taxes, there is no way around that.

Re:OT: Taxes

[avdp]

Yes, I am on an HMO right now, I have not had a problem with them, but then again I have not needed any (semi) exotic treatment of any kind. But I think the stories out there I have heard about HMOs (some of these stories from close friends) are pretty scary. There is no denying that - best case scenario, you're up for quite a battle, possibly in court.

As far as the medication, I hate to tell you, but you're wrong. We have the exact same medications available in Europe (and some other that are not legal in the US - yet, if ever) and they cost a fraction of the price. Why? Government control. Quite frankly, the price of prescription is way out control in the US, and there really is no justification for it, other than pure corporate greed. Government control is neccessary in the US, and in my opinion, innevitable - it's just matter of time really.

You're right about Canada, I did hear bad things about that system as well. But I don't know much more than that about it...

This step is required by evolution

[dybdahl]

Since Denmark is one of the countries with the smallest amount of cash around, because we all use electronic cards when shopping in supermarket, paying for parking the car etc., there is actually information about what products we buy, stored electronically.

If all the databases in Denmark were linked together, they could find out, how many people that bought a specific toothbrush in 1992, bought hearth attack medicine in 1996. The CPR-number uniquely identifies the population and immigrants. We store:

- Acquisition of strong medicine is registered centrally with your CPR-number.
- General shopping is registered at the shopping centers with timestamp and location. Your payment is stored at the banks with timestamp and location, hooked up to your CPR-number.
- Family trouble that involves social authorities are registered at their place with CPR-number. If your child's institution get a suspicion that you have family problems, this is also stored here.
- All the address you have lived a couple of years back.
- Your family relations.
- Insurances.
- Health expenses at doctors, hospitals (if they apply - normally visiting doctors and hospitals is free around here) is stored centrally.
- Your relationship with army etc. is stored at the army, with your cpr-number.
- Your workplace is registered with cpr. The company tells the authorities how much you earn, and then the authorities can do things like holding back your wage if you owe money to the state. The state also tells the employers how much tax they should hold back from the employee (in Denmark, the employee does the tax declaration - not the employer)
- All your tax information is stored centrally.
- A few video rent chains once required you to give them their cpr-number. This is no longer the case.
- The police stores everything based on CPR-number.
- Your cars license plate is stored with your CPR-number.

So - everything is digital and automatic. This reduces costs a lot. Going this way is inevitable if you want an effective society. Denying digitalization of public administration is like not wanting cars on the roads. The trick is to handle it well - and I believe that this is the case here.

Re:No one shipped me, Thanks

[yakfacts]

Your comments are intelligent and well-taken.

I was generalizing, which is always bad, including right now. My comments about Europe sending their "scum class" to the US is poorly worded and refers to events 100 years ago. If I had been thinking with the logical rather than the emotional part of my brain, I would have rewritten the entire argument.

I would suspect the percentage of European-born drug users in the US as a population of US drug abusers is avoid education because it is too "mainstream" to be intelligent--it's not cool to be smart in the youth populations in many of our larger cities; the poorer, less educated and more downtrodden you can appear, the better. I would not expect somebody in the US to know the details of Hungary (like their wonderful Tokay wines), I would at least expect them to know of the capital.

But when I have seen on European television seems to be people going into the poorest US neighborhoods and finding some citizen who did not even complete high school, then firing a bunch of questions at them.

This happened in Salt Lake City during the Olympics; French TV was filming at an Afghan restaurant during the olympic opening ceremonies.

I talked to the restaurant owner the next day. He was very upset. The French had done a whole story about how his restraunt was empty because Americans are "so scared and stupid" they think they will be poisoned at an Afhgan restaurant...they did not mention that the opening ceremonies were on and the entire downtown area was either glued to their TV or watching the 24-inch firework shells launching from the tops of the downtown buildings.

My European coworkers were always laughing at me because of what some American pop star said or did. Or telling me I loved violence and wanted to murder people because of some action movie produced in the US. Or explaining to me things like "the capital of France is Paris", just in case I did not know.

Even a person I worked with from the UK told me how violent and crime-ridden the US was compared to England...even though it turned out the rates in her home town of London were actually higher.

Additonal...

[yakfacts]

One thing I never explained...what I was referring to by "shipped" was the tendancy for upper-class European (usually British) families to ship "problem children" (illegitimate, retarded, criminal, big jerk) to the United States so they would not give the family a bad name. This was mainly in the 18th and 19th centuries.

I suspect that this is the reason for a higher-than-normal problems in some groups in the US and Australia. I don't know if this is some sort of a genetic issue, or--as I suspect--a case of children acting like their parents.

One of my ancestors was an illegitimate child of a British duke, so I know what I am talking about here...he was a "problem" they got rid of by shipping him to the US.