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Which DVD Recordable Format Will Win?
kila_m writes: "Their is a format war going on between two recordable formats 'DVD-R' and 'DVD+R.' Both formats do virtually the same thing i.e. are readable in most DVD-ROM drives - but a '-' disk is not recordable in a '+' drive and vice-versa. We have a
review of the Pioneer DVR-A04 - the worlds best-selling DVD writer and based on the '-' format. I would like get an view of what recordable format Slashdot readers prefer or think is going to win."
I want so badly a dvdburner to backup stuff with, cd's are often to small for some of the content I'm backing up, however it would be a waste of my money to invest in one now even though I can afford it, for the fact that these are Not standard....sigh...only time will really tell.
You know, I have one simple request. And that is to have sharks with frickin' laser beams attached to their heads!
DVD-R will win, because it has almost 100% compatibility with existing DVD players. DVD+R (from what I understand) is not nearly as compatible. Sort of like CD-R versus CD-RW.
Well truth is I have both an A03 and an A04 drive so I am hoping DVD-R will win. There is also the simple fact that DVD-R seems to be most compatabile in most non computer hardware playback machines.
If dvd-r != dvd+r and x=dvd then what is x?
"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people in the world?"
Some people are going to end up being mighty sorry when they blow a thousand dollars on a burner and they don't have any disks available to burn...
Friends don't let friends use multiple inheritance.
Too easy...
Since the best selling one is in DVD-R, DVD+R will win out, causing those people to have to buy new DVD-Rs if they want to trade DVDs.
"Oh no, 3 horny women and only 2 condoms...Thank god I read slashdot"
I have the one-earlier model. The A03. I use it for two things: 1) to burn videos that play on my set top DVD player, and 2) to burn 4450 megs of whatever per platter.
What more can you ask for?? The A03 or A04 is THE machine to buy. If your interest is item #1 or item #2 mentioned above, go for it.
My question is: Can any of the DVD's written by these burners be played in a standard home DVD player? Sorry, I just crawled out from under a rock and haven't been following the DVD format wars or anything. I don't want this to pirate DVD's, I was thinking more on the lines of capturing video to disk, then burning it on a DVD.
No matter where you go... there you are.
When I'm making that $$$ again and a $200dollar DVDR doesn't make me think about "Gee if I buy this I can't eat my ramen"
That's what I am wondering, who invented DVD+R and DVD-R in the first place? What are the technological and usuable benefits of either of them?
I think it's more of a side-by-side comparison than roughly say: DVD-R has fair chance becuase the bestseller uses it...
This all happened with CD-Rs.
Remember CD-E? That went away and so will all DVD systems besides two. One for writeable, and one for rewrite.
-twb
Wow, that's not going to be confusing to consumers at all! That's like selling two incompatible fuels, one called "gasoline" and one called "gasaline". Couldn't they have at least picked a better name difference than "DVD+R" and "DVD-R"?
slashdot!=valid HTML
But.. can't you then just turn the disc upside down?
-Matt
Whichever is cheaper to implement will win. It seems DVD-R is more prevalent right now, and it will probably stay that way. And if DVD+R has poor compatability and no advantage over DVD-R, I don't see why anyone would use it. I haven't read much on this, though, so there may be some advantage DVD+R has that I don't know about.
With VHS vs BetaMax people had a good reason to try and choose the same format as everyone else so they could view each other's tapes. However, once a DVD-R or DVD+R is recorded it can be read by either kind of drive. So people will simply choose the cheaper one.
As long as both kinds achieve a user base (and I think they already have) media will be available for either. It's not like one of them is going to die.
Do you believe in death after life?
I just recently (a week ago) bought a Pioneer DVR-104, which is the OEM model of the DVR-A04. They are _exactly_ the same drive, but the pricing can vary from as little as $20 to as much as $100 depending on where you look. The only difference is the box and software, which if you're a Linux user isn't going to do you any good anyway.
/dev/hdx device with mknod (mknod hda b 3 0 worked for me).
/dev/hdx and the /dev/srx devices at the same time is because you need to run hdparm -d 0 -r 0 /dev/hdx. This will turn off Read Only and DMA. I know it seems weird that you'd want to turn off DMA, but if I don't I can't burn DVDs, CDRs burn just fine however. Of course the /dev/srx device is so the burner software can actually burn to the CD.
Also, for those of you that are using devfs with this drive. If you get funky errors whenever you try to burn a DVD, sputtering about Hardware Errors, Illegal Requests, and/or Invalid whatevers. You will need to manually create the
The reason for needing both the
I might add that all of this is with the 2.4.19 kenel, so those of you still using the 2.2.x kernel might not run into this. Once I got the hdparm thing set, everything ran nicely. Hopefully these tips will save you some grief, as I spent a couple days digging through google, and was luckily given the hdparm tip from a fellow I emailed off a mailing list I found who had described the same issue.
Another small caveat, if I try to pipe mkisofs output into dvdrecord, the burn will fail. If I make the iso file first, and then call dvdrecord, the burn is successful. Once again, I don't know if this is something specific to my setup, so it's just an fyi.
After those issues were cleared up, though, the drive seems to do perform very well. I've been busy clearing off disk space all day long.
RFC2119
The one that will win is whichever one I don't buy when I can't hold out any longer.
The DVD consortium, the bunch that came up with the DVD standards (DVD video, audio, RAM) also came up with DVD-R and RW. Sony, HP, et all, came up with DVD+R and RW.
"Luncheon meats make the sawdust in your stomach explode."
Whether this will have an enormous impact on whichever is ultimately commonly accepted is another matter.
I should be noted, however, that many of their other choices of things to ship with before anyone else (CD booting, built-in networking, USB) have become pretty much standard for most non apple hardware now.
More interesting is the old guy that overheard us and mumbled in beer speech: "DVD's!! I haven't even heard of CVD's -- I'm sticking with BVD's..." Which was followed by a few unintelligable sentences concerning underwear and conspiracies.
I like the sound of
chmod DVD+R
better than
chmod DVD-R
taken! (by Davidleeroth) Thanks Bingo Foo!
Usually, what happens is either:
You have two less frequent variants:
This leads me to think neither DVD-R nor DVD+R will win, and they will be replaced by yet another standard that will force users to upgrade yet again. The manufacturers are obviously OK with this, as this makes more profits for them, at the expense of slowing the initial acceptance of the technology. Consumers aren't complete idiots either, apart from a fringe of early adopters who are used to being shafted anyways, myself included (I own an Apple iMac with a Pioneer DVD-R drive)
I don't know too much about how the different standards work with either other, but I'm assuming a DVD+RW drive would work with DVD+R, and a DVD-RW drive would work with DVD-R, and that there's no cross-compatibility between the + and the - drives. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but if I'm right, then I assume that the + technologies will win out, only because that's what Microsoft says will happen. If you look at this page on Microsoft's site, it basically says they're backing DVD+RW because it's the easiest for Windows to work with, and for the users to work with because it supports "Mt. Rainier" burning. (easy Drag&Drop burning, from what I can tell). If that's the one Microsoft is backing for built-in Windows support, I'm sure you can guess which one will eventually win. Plus, the + technologies seem to have more companies behind them, though the - tech seems to have more of an installed base. *shrug*
I believe the + will win, but not knowing is what has prevented me from buying any so far.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
It's obvious neither one will win.
According to the MPAA, the only people needing that much portable storage are pirates and other lowlifes. Therefore, it's clear that both formats will be banned and you will be arrested for so much as thinking about either one.
Ok, yes, as stated, DVD-R and DVD+R are not compatible (by compatible i mean that you can't burn '-R' discs in a '+R' burner and vice versa. However, a DVD+R is a DVD+RW minus the rewriteable aspect. DVD+RW was released first, and then they released DVD+Rs, which are cheaper than the DVD+RW discs. However, not all DVD+RWs can burn DVD+Rs. Only the newer ones can.
Info on DVD+R/+RWs
-R is more popular than +R for a few more reasons than the fact that +R is more recently available (though this is true).
DVD-R is the only "true" recordable DVD standard, since it was created by the DVD Consortium, the organization that defines what is a DVD and what is NOT a DVD. On the other hand, DVD+R was developed by a coalition of peripheral manufacturers, in direct opposition to the DVD Consortium.
Additionally, DVD-R had a "smoother" rolling out period. If you recall, the first "+" drives were DVD+RW - and in a big "whoopsie!" they suddenly announced that "Oh - that rewritable drive you got? It can't handle the DVD+R disks. Sorry!" They then proceeded to start selling DVD+R(W) drives, the ones that CAN handle recordable media.
Finally, DVD-R has a broader adoption in the home entertainment area, having at least one home entertainment unit come out that uses the DVD-R drives. DVD+R(W) drives were designed specifically for the computer industry, and likely won't be used very soon in home entertainment devices.
Consumers want more choice! Come on, give it to us!
We want DVD=RAM, DVD~RW, DVD±R, and DVD_ROM!
Don't hold back! We want one, two, and three-layer formats! One, two, and three-sided disks!
We want the kind that come in a cartridge but you can remove them, and the kind that come in a cartridge but you can't remove them, and the kind that don't come in a cartridge but you need a caddy!
We crave the thrill, the excitement, and the suspense of putting a DVD in a player and wondering what, if anything will happen!
Oh, and, please, we'd hate to break the law by recording anything you don't think we should record, so put in something to stop us from doing that.
And we'd really like to get valuable discount coupons in the mail, but only on the stuff we like to watch, so it would be helpful if the player sent a list of everything we watch to get sent to the MPAA, the RIAA, and the Department of Homeland Security so that they could form a dossier, I mean profile of our interests.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
DVD-R is the officially supported standard of the DVD Forum.
I just ordered a DVR-A04 for $299 I've seen the OEM for $249. The quality DVD+R drives were in the paper this weekend for $449 (HP @ CompUSA). The DVD-R disks ($2-$3) are near half the price of the DVD+R ($5-$6) disks. DVD-R has near 100% compatibility while +R is at about 70% and if you have an early model DVD player it has almost no chance.
I have used the DVR-A03 for over a year and have had no problems.
http://www.kubuntu.org/
Local stores are selling 1x DVD-R media for $2.50 a disc.
Local stores (if I can find it) sell DVD+R (don't know what speed -- I didn't care that much) for about $10 a disc.
People will not pay $10 a disc so willingly as $2.50. Until DVD+R is less than $2.50 a disc, it has already lost in my mind.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Uh, except the new technologies are not yet available, but there are millions of DVD drives and set-top players already deployed...
Simply because DVD-R can be pronounced as "DVD R", while DVD+R must be pronounced as "DVD plus R". The difference between the name is minimal, so consumers will get confused and go for DVD-R instead, not knowing that DVD+R is something incompatible.
Call me crazy if you want, but I do think that it's this kind of small things that will make DVD-R win.
The current DRIVES won't work with those discs. They use some of the same OPTICS, which would keep startup costs down. But you can't flash a DVD drive with new firmware, stick in a 100GB disc, and expect it to read.
You can't fit a whole movie on a home recorded DVD?R anyway. So what exactly is the practical use?
Unless the prices were to suddenly drop on the DVD+R burners or media, it's hard to see DVD-R not winning.
Of note - while they don't quite drive the market, they do make a difference: The Apple SuperDrives are DVD-R. I'm not sure there are any Apple DVD+R offerings.
Also of note - I bought a DVD+R drive early on, not knowing any better. I wish I'd gone with DVD-R or waited for one of the few drives which handle both.
Says the RIAA: When you EQ, you're stealing bass!
We have a MacG4 with a SuperDrive in it, but now we are looking for a DVD player that will allow us to view a test disc. We use DVD-R General discs because they are cheap and allow us multiple tries without toasting a $25 disc and then find an error. We're thinking of going to DVD-RW because after a several burns, they are cheaper. We are also not opposed to going to +R or +RW if the cost/benefit is there.
In the Aug 2002 issue of DV Magazine, they review the different formats (DVD-R, DVD+RW, DVD-RW but not DVD+R). They look at compatiblity w/players, disc failure rate by disc manufacturer, and other factors. It offers a good read and lots of info if you are interested. They even list players that can accept all of the formats. It has helped us make a decision on a player (Apex makes a nice model).
DVD-R will take the lead not because it is compatible but because it has got the greatest market share. VHS did not beat BetaMax in the specs, it beat it in the market. I have gone DVD-R/RW because it is best but it is already the main player and the rest will fall because they do not have the following. The easiest media to get is for DVD-R/RW so to buy anything else is folly.
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
An interesting fact about the "+" standard is that it is incompatable with the current dual AMD boards (MP and MPX chipset). This is a problem that I found out from selling a computer configured with both a ASUS a7m266-d and a DVD+R+RW. When the problem showed up we tryed changing motherboards, then brand of motherboard, and finally brands of DVD+ drive.
HP and Sony both blame AMD. AMD says that the problem lies in a data protocol required for the dual chips that the "+" standard interfers with.
The "-" is fully compatable and works perfect. So my vote goes to the "-" standard because of compatablity and I don't trust Sony and HP. (especially since we saw a bunch of issues with packet writing and the Sony CDRW drive)
..and finally the format wars won't be the deciding factor - millions of DVD players already in homes have decided it for us.
DVD-R plays in nearly all players except for some first-gen Toshibas, while DVD+RW *still* aren't compatible with most brands. If you buy a DVD recorder to make movies for demo disks, portfolios or other transmittabes, or just to send to family and friends (or Sundance), then DVD-R is your pal. And the pal of everyone you send a DVD to.
If you're only using it on your PC for backup, who cares?
DVD+RW has much lower compatibility than DVD-R or DVD+R - as does DVD-RW. Both rewritable formats use a recording surface with a lower reflectivity than the write-once formats, confusing some older DVD players into thinking the disc is dual layer instead of single.
Earlier DVD+RW drives were dismissed as less compatible solely because they were unable to burn write-once discs, unlike the competing DVD-R/RW drives. Second generation drives such as the HP dvd200i will happily burn write-once and rewritable media, same as the DVD-R/RW drives.
The reality is, although DVD+R/RW has a theoretical edge in compatibility due to its lossless linking feature, both formats are actually very similar in results. Just be sure not to get the older drives that can't do DVD+R.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
Nope, that was quite different. Betamax & VHS were completely incompatible standards. Tapes recorded for one were not readable by the other, so rental stores had to stock movies in both formats.
DVD+R/RW and DVD-R/RW drives will both read standard DVD-ROM and DVD-Video discs. They will even read each other's write-once and rewritable discs. The only difference is in the media they write to (and how they do it), and since it's much cheaper to stock two types of blank media than two types of pre-recorded media, I think there'll be no availability problems for the usable life of the drives at least.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
I think... I mean, do what you want, hey, to each his own, right?
/sec, reading off a RAID array onto tape.
;p
Personally, if I was backing up data, I'd use a tape drive. Especially if we're talking about 500 gigs. Unless I'm thinking of something wrong, recordable DVD is around 5 GB, right? So, you're talking about 100 discs.
That's not exactly chump change.
You can get a Quantum 40/80 DLT drive for nearly exactly $1000. Just check www.pricewatch.com for more details. The 40/80 is compressed/uncompressed, so assuming your data compresses even much worse than average, you can squeeze in 50 GB/tape. So, 10 tapes. And it writes very quickly - I've easily gotten 30 MB (not Mbit)
As for easier to find files/directories, any decent backup progam will just ask you what you want to restore, and then tell you to put in tape #X. DVD-/+R isn't exactly something that won't crap out any more or less than anything else - if anything, they're really prone to scratching. Once the tape is out of the drive, it's a fully encased hockey puck.
I wouldn't play with it, but I mean, you could.
The -R and -RAM formats own the consumer video recorder market. The -RAM format has the key advantage of very fast random access time, so fast that you can record and play-back from the same disk simultaneously in real time.
The -R format is currently the most compatible with existing players. Truthfully though, worrying about which format will work with existing and older players is irrelevant. It would be like worrying about CD-R because older players won't work with it. If you need to read the disks, get a player that will do so. I'd be willing to make a bet that withing a year's time there won't be a player sold that won't read both -R and +R and quite a few that will read -RAM (especially from Panasonic).
The only area where there is any room for competition will be in the computer arena, but even then there will be no clear victor for a very long time. With +R drives and media being much more expensive than -R, I think that -R has a bright future here as well.
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
If the technically superior format always loses, then why did ISA beat Microchannel? Why did DVD beat DIVX?
Sure you can. Maybe not the movie, multiple soundtracks AND featurettes, trailers, interviews etc, all at the original quality, but just the movie is no trouble.
The bitrate for DVD-compliant MPEG2 video is between 2 Mb/s and 8 Mb/s, but most pre-recorded movies vary around 3-5 Mb/s. That gives you between 119 and 199 minutes - more than enough for most movies.
Alternatively, you can encode your movies in a tighter format like DivX. I've seen remarkably good quality from a 90 minute movie squeezed onto a single CD, let alone a DVD. You can fit 6 of those movies onto a single DVD, and play them back on your computer any time.
I personally use mine for recording TV shows that I can't find on DVD yet, like Family Guy. I can fit 6 episodes in standard MPEG2 format, and the quality is as good as I recorded it at.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
...which is that nobody cares about the merits of the competing RW specs. Rewritable removable optical media is voodoo technology, sold by the cynical to the guillible, who generally use it until the one bundled RW disk gives out, and then take one look at the relative prices of R and RW media and switch to the former exclusively.
The one question which will determine the winner between DVD-R(W) and DVD+R(W) is "which one produces DVDs that play more reliably in my $125 set-top DVD player?" So far, Pioneer seems to have a very clear edge, but the year is yet young and Sony/HP may yet get their act in gear.
News for Nerds. Stuff that Matters? Like hell.
I wonder if ANY format will REALLY become popular, until someone makes a dual-layer dvd recordable, so that it can hold a (relatively) simple copy of a purchased movie...
After all the "killer app" for cd-r/rw was probably piracy / legitimate copying of commercial cds, I don't really see why it should be any different for dvd recordable.
What's more, it burns discs faster (especially rewritable discs), it's just as compatible, and I've seen drives (the Ricoh 5125A - 2nd gen DVD+R/RW, the drive OEM'd to other vendors) on Pricewatch for as low as US$284.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
I don't know why people keep accusing DVD+R of poor compatibility. The fact is, write-once discs of each standard are readable in close to 100% of drives & players, while rewritable discs of each standard are both less compatible. See here for a list.
The older 1st-gen DVD+RW drives that could not burn write-once discs did suffer, since rewritable formats of each type are inherently less compatible, but since 2nd-gen drives became available that could write DVD+R discs, they've been pretty much identical.
As for advantages, how about DVD+R/RW drives just burn discs faster? Especially rewritable discs. They also allow you to append video to a disc without having to reformat & rewrite the lot. There are other advantages too.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
It's actually called the DVD Forum, but so what? The same people tried to tell us that DVD-RAM discs were DVDs too - try playing one of those discs (or cartridges!) in your player and see how far you get. Clearly, the support of the DVD Forum doesn't count for much as far as compatibility goes. In my books, the greater industry weight on the side of the DVD Alliance counts for more.
It's true that the rollout of the 1st-gen DVD+RW drives was a joke. Thankfully, Philips and other manufactures did stand by their customers & offered refunds & exchanges - the notable exception was HP, who were eventually pressured into offering a paid "upgrade" to the 2nd-gen drives after much consumer backlash.
As for DVD+RW home entertainment devices, I count 8 different models on this list. They've been available for some time.
There's an awful lot of FUD surrounding the DVD+R/RW format, but why? It's just as compatible (2nd-gen drives at least), it's faster, it's more flexible, and it's almost the same price. I've seen more misinformation in this slashdot article than I have in the past 3 months of slashdot put together, which is saying something. Is someone spreading this doubt deliberately?
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
What kind of disc costs $25?
I do my test burns on a $7 DVD+RW disc, then when I like it I burn it to a $3 DVD+R disc. I dunno where you're buying your media from, but I think they're trying to rip you off.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
I can't say I regret buying my drive. In fact, I tend to use it with a feeling bordering on smugness whenever I burn a rewritable disc 2.4 times faster than the DVR-A04 :-)
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
No, single speed on DVD is much faster than CD, due to the fact that the data is packed denser on the disk.
I don't know for sure, but I'd guess that it'd take the same time to write an entire DVD at 1x as it does to write a CD at 1x (which is still fairly long, but at least it's writing a hell of a lot more...)
Advanced users are users too!
However, DVD+R is just as compatible with DVD-R, i.e. with nearly 100% of players.
Both rewritable formats suffer from lower compatibility because older players are confused by the media's lower reflectivity into thinking it's a dual layer disc.
However, both write-once formats use a normal-reflectivity media, and both are more or less equally compatible. In fact, DVD+R has the theoretical edge due to its lossless linking method of writing, which is more like printed DVD-Video discs.
The answer is simply, don't buy a 1st-gen DVD+RW drive since they couldn't write DVD+R discs. However, the 2nd-gen drives (HP 200i, Ricoh 5125 etc) do burn write-once DVD+R discs, and are at least as compatible as DVD-R as this list shows.
I'm getting very tired of all the misinformation and FUD floating about this issue, and I'm starting to wonder who's behind it all...
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
I agree that tape is far better for long term storage, but 100 DVD-R or even DVD-RW discs can be purchased for under $100. A single DLT 40/80 tape will set you back $48. So DVD is by far the cheaper solution.
I've also seen DVD+R discs for under $3, and DVD+RW discs for under $5. Can't complain about that.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
I've seen DVD+R discs in numerous places for under $3. I think you're looking in the wrong places.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
Neither standard will write to the other's media, of course. However, both standards will happily read each other's media.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
But.. can't you then just turn the disc upside down?
No, you use a technique known as double recording. Put two "-" discs in the "+" recorder simultaneously. The two discs will cancel each other out to the "+" format and work as expected.
As a side bonus, you get two copies of whatever you wanted to write to the disc.
And I even made a comment on the last /. article that asked the question of "Time to Purchase a DVD-R?". My goal here is just to back up the comments that have already been posted by others.
1.) The 104 is the SAME as the A04 (EXCEPT for the fact that one uses general purpose disks and the other uses disks for authoring, respectively).
2.) I did some research before I bought my drive, and more DVD drives support -R than +R. Granted some drives may still read +R disks, but it's not advertised, so I consider that unnofficial.
3.) For those bitching about "harddrives are cheaper/use tape backups", stop being asses. I wanted the portability of DVD for a reason, and so did the people who are buying these drives.
4.) That last point being said, those that have bought the -R drives en mass have proved that it's the format they want, and that will drive the market. Kinda like the VHS/BetaMAX wars...
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.
Can't deny that. But for $3 more, my DVD+RW disc is burnt 2.4x faster than your DVD-RW - 40 mins to your hour and a half. Perhaps you should stop wasting your time...
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
First off The Dvd-r discs are far more compatable with DVD players than Dvd+r's are
/. members.
Incorrect. DVD-R discs and DVD+R discs have virtually the same level of compatibility.
The DVD-R spec is backed by the same forum that supports the Cd-r and rw spec
Incorrect. The DVD-R spec is backed by the same forum that supports the DVD spec. The same forum that supports CSS, RCE and other technologies beloved by
And now if I'm not mistaken there is a lawsuit against the companies supporting the Dvd+r spec
AFAIK, only HP was forcing consumers to pay extra for the new drive, and even still they were eventually only charging for the updated software, which they don't make, not the hardware. Still, those are the risks for early adopters. See what kind of trade-in Creative is offering on its DVD-RAM drives.
My Money is on the DVD-R standard period!
You seem to be mistaken about most of the facts here so I'm not sure why your prediction should hold much weight. OTOH, you are honest enough to admit your bias as an owner of a DVD-RW, so I'll likewise admit that I own the HP +RW unit. Can't say I exactly "love" it, I find myself still burning a lot more CDRs than DVD+Rs. I'd frankly advise those people who can to hold out for the Blu-Ray or whatever format is coming along next.
There are two kinds of people: 1) those who start arrays with one and 1) those who start them with zero.
Won't Bluray come out in 2005, making standard
DVDs obsolete?
<shrug>
It disturbs me that the industry can't settle on a single standard, like BluRay or whatever, and lets get on with it. Competing formats aren't good for anyone.
I agree and all, DLT is definately the shit. 30 year shelf life is great. And DLT robots start at around 4 grand.
Sucks when the tapes come off the spindel though. Expensive as hell to fix, but you can do it yourself.
However, going through a slipped spindel and a buffer underrun, I think I'd choose the underrun (which takes about 3 seconds to deal with- the disk is trash) over the 3-4 hours of getting up and running again with DLT.
It really depends what you are doing.
Never trust an atom. They make up everything.
Tape backups from twenty years can be read if you a) still have a working unit capable of reading the tape type, b) they've been kept in controlled storage, c) if you still have software that can read the backups and d) if you're lucky.
Tapes break down. Frequently. Our tape silos spit out tapes with media errors at rates you wouldnt believe.
From a pure reliability standpoint I'd rate optical media as best, followed by harddisks and with tapes as the worst. That is if you're storing them (including the disks) offline in a controlled environment of course.
DVD+RW and DVD+R are formats that were never supposed to be supported in consumer players.
Gasically this is a beta vs vhs thing were the proponents of dvd+r and dvd+rw don't want to pay the licensing fees to the dvd-r guys.
DVD-R is the most compatible format.
DVD-RAM is the best for rewrites and so on. Completely outstrips dvd+rw for performance and longevity and has in fact been around for ages in jukeboxes etc.
I have an external firewire version of the Pioneer A04 drive, and I'm reasonably satisfied with its reliability and performance.
However, it's pretty difficult finding compatible media that it can use without making a fuss. The blank DVD-R discs sold from the website firewiredirect.com works like a charm and the drive burns them at full speed and the discs can be read in near anything else.
Other brands of DVD-R discs don't work near as well, and sometimes take twice as long to burn. Nero reports zero buffer allocation for seconds at a time when I'm not using the 'good' brand,
and occasionally those discs don't read in any other drive than the A04.
My point, in short, is to be sure you find a supplier of 'good' media for your DVD burner and buy a few samples of different kinds to determine which works best for you. The different brands have different shades of purple colors, the more reddish purple kind works best for my drive.
Perhaps you should read your link because it says both were technically the same in performance and quality. The VHS may have had a lead in recording length though.
It looks like when you have two identical technologies, the cheaper one wins. Surprising isn't it?
"When you sit with a nice girl for two hours, it seems like two minutes. When you sit on a hot stove for two minutes, it
But a 120GB IDE HD is ~$133US (www.pricewatch.com), and HD write/reads are *much* faster than tapes.
So, for ~$670 (5*133), you get 600 GB of storage space.
Of course, these are numbers used just for your example. DLT tapes are $50 for a 40/80, which is significantly cheaper than a 120GB HD, but a 40GB HD is only $60 (www.pricewatch.com), which means that DLT is a less expensive option when the aggregate amount of data backed up reaches
5TB (terabytes).
The downsides to HD's are the fragility of the drives, the shorter (30yr) shelf life, and the current lack of IDE hot-plugging. The downsides of the tapes are the slow write/read speed, and the fact that they are more prone to bad bit writing than a HD.
That being said, for smaller applications, a second HD as a backup is an excellent idea over purchasing a DLT.
I started out with a first-generation Philips DVD+RW drive. Totally worthless "standard"... Returned it promptly and bought a Pioneer A03.
I'm somewhat satisfied with the A03 drive (DVD-R), and it looks like the A04 is only incrementally improved. (EG. No reason to spend more money upgrading from A03 to A04.)
I'm quickly starting to see a real problem with all of these current writable DVD standards though. They only support single-sided discs at 4.x gigs.
No matter how illegal it is, one thing in the backs of the minds of quite a few consumer DVD burner purchasers is the ability to make copies of DVD movies. Well over half the time, a movie is too long to fit on a single DVD-R or DVD+R disc, since the commercial DVD is double-sided and holds over 8GB.
It's a major pain to extract everything off the commercial DVD and then go through all the procedures necessary to rip and re-encode the audio streams so you can break it into 2 pieces to burn to 2 seperate single-sided DVD discs. (Not to mention, this makes it cost twice as much to copy the movie, so you might not even want to bother.)
This is probably going to be the #1 (unspoken) reason why a new standard holding 8+ GB per DVD writable disc has the real hope of becoming an official "standard".
A Question for the DVD techies here: Why can't we record using the exact same method of recording used for commercial movies?
Is this a deliverate messure by the DVD patent holders? How do the movie studios record (or test) movies? Can we get one of those drives? how much do they cost and who makes them???