Ask About Setting Up a Community ISP

The Ruby Ranch Internet Cooperative (RRIC) is one of the best-known member-owned ISPs around. It provides DSL service to the Ruby Ranch neighborhood in Summit County, Colorado. Carl Oppedahl, the RRIC "main man," has agreed to answer Slashdot questions about the possibilities and pitfalls of setting up something similar in other areas. Please read the RRIC FAQs before posting a question so that you don't ask something Carl has already answered a million times. Otherwise, the usual Slashdot interview rules apply: One question per post, we'll email Carl 10 of the highest-moderated questions, and post his answers as soon as he gets them back to us.

Comments

Have you ever...

[Anonymous Coward]

... farted then put your nose into your nuts and took a big wiff?

Re:Have you ever...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup.

I love doing the dutch oven, even though I sleep alone.

eff pee!

[Anonymous Coward]

could it be?!!

FP!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I raped Taco with a rusty fish hook!

Try setting up a Wheelchair only ISP

[Anonymous Coward]

I had a nice run along the beach this morning, the wet sand squashing between my bare toes in a most enjoyable manner.

What's the best YOU can do, robocrip?

Slashdotting?

[FortKnox]

How did you website (which I assume is located on your ISP) handle the slashdotting you just recieved? Didn't expect that, did ya??

Re:Slashdotting?

[TitaniumFox]

Yeah, this is the 2nd time we've slashdotted this ISP.

Re:Slashdotting?

[Carl Oppedahl]

Well, we did expect it. We have been slashdotted twice in recent months and are quite accustomed to the traffic. As you can see at http://www.patents.com/mrtg/dillon3.html we are running at about one-third of a T1's worth of traffic.

Re:Slashdotting?

[Trevelyan]

lol whats the point of emailing you the questions if you are going to answer them here?

To avoid redundancy; read this site before asking

[Anonymous Coward]

go here

What is the first step?

[EvilBudMan]

What is the first step in creating a rural co-op?

Re:What is the first step?

[Soko]

Sorry for answering your question early, but the first step is getting everyone together and committed to the project.

Then, to actually make it happen, you shoot all of the lawyers. Next. :-P

Soko

Re:What is the first step?

[EverDense]

You could merge the two steps. Shooting all the lawyers would bring everyone together.

Opposition from the Big Players

[Rude Turnip]

Dear Mr. Oppedahl:

Your ISP reminds me much of a credit union, which is essentially a nonprofit, member-owned bank. I recall reading about large, commercial banks lobbying to prevent credit unions from gaining some of the same priviledges enjoyed by regular banks.

In this age of utility monopoly abuse, do you have any concerns about any of the large, commercial telecom interests (ie Qwest) lobbying the government to make it difficult, if not impossible to set up or maintain ISPs similar to yours? Thank you.

Re:Opposition from the Big Players

[Anonymous Coward]

I recall reading about large, commercial banks lobbying to prevent credit unions from gaining some of the same priviledges enjoyed by regular banks.

I think it was the opposite.

Banks were trying to eliminate the priviledges that credit unions were granted by law so that the banks would not be disadvantaged in competing with the CU's

Make sure it's nigger free!

[Anonymous Coward]

Niggers will steal your bandwidth, then shoot you in the face if you tried to complain. Then, when the authorities arrive, they'll cry 'racist'.

Re:Make sure it's nigger free!

[Anonymous Coward]

Check out this nigger Welfare Queen.

Niggers are a scourge, be they the regular or the sand variety.

How transferrable are the lessons?

[TheConfusedOne]

It seems that a lot of the problems/issues related specifically to the Colorado Public Utilities Board and their laws.

What items/issues do you feel are universal to any broadband/ISP startup? [Licensing, incorporation, etc.]

Where would one go for the state/county specific issues for each particular ISP?

FAQ

[return 42]

The FAQ will probably be slashdotted real soon, so here's the list of questions, at least:

Frequently asked questions about the Coop

Why all this struggle with Qwest?
Why didn't you simply use a wireless solution instead of renting subloops from Qwest?
Why didn't you simply bury your own cable instead of renting subloops from Qwest?
Why don't you simply use a broadband satellite connection?
Why are the modem speeds provided on Qwest phone lines so slow? And why won't Qwest provide DSL?
Infrastructure
What equipment are you using?
What did it cost?
System design issues
Why are you using SDSL? Why are you not using line sharing?
Exactly what DSL technology are you using? What DSL chip are you using?
What line speeds do subscribers get? Do they get a dedicated IP address? Can they operate servers?
Why did you place the DSLAM at the cross-connect box rather than at the SLC (remote terminal)?
How exactly does your temperature monitor work?
Implementation issues
What exactly do you order from Qwest to hook up a new subscriber?
What quality of lines has Qwest provided?
How reliable is your point-to-point microwave link?
How do you monitor your system?
What do you suggest your subscribers use for lightning protection?
Financial planning issues
What were your startup costs?
What are the non-recurring costs associated with adding a subscriber?
What are your recurring costs?
What do you charge your subscribers to sign up?
What will you charge your subscribers per month?
How many subscribers did you need to decide to launch service?
Diagrams and maps
May we see a system diagram?
May we see a neighborhood map?
May we see a map showing the neighborhood and the telco central office?
Other Internet Coops and local broadband efforts
Are there other Internet Coops?
How have others set up local broadband systems?
From the first concept to launch
What was the time line?

Re:FAQ

[Anonymous Coward]

Le FAQ sera probablement slashdotted vrai bientôt, tellement voici la liste de questions, au moins: Questions fréquemment posées au sujet de la cage Pourquoi toute cette lutte avec Qwest? Pourquoi n'avez-vous pas simplement employé une solution sans fil au lieu de louer des subloops de Qwest? Pourquoi n'avez-vous pas simplement enterré votre propre câble au lieu de louer des subloops de Qwest? Pourquoi n'employez-vous pas simplement un raccordement satellite à bande large? Pourquoi les vitesses de modem fournies sur les lignes téléphoniques de Qwest sont-elles si lentes? Et pourquoi Qwest ne fournira-t-il pas le DSL? Infrastructure Quel équipement employez-vous? Qu'a-t-il coûté? La conception de système publie pourquoi êtes vous employant SDSL? Pourquoi n'employez-vous pas le partage de ligne? Exactement quelle technologie de DSL employez-vous? Quel morceau de DSL employez-vous? Quelles vitesses de ligne les abonnés obtiennent-ils? Obtiennent-ils un IP ADDRESS consacré? Peuvent-ils actionner des serveurs? Pourquoi avez-vous placé le DSLAM à la boîte de croix-relier plutôt qu'au SLC (le terminal à distance)? Combien exactement votre moniteur de la température fonctionne-t-il? L'exécution publie ce qui exactement vous passent commande de Qwest pour connecter un nouvel abonné? Quelle qualité des lignes Qwest a-t-il fournie? Combien fiable est votre point pour diriger le lien de micro-onde? Comment surveillez-vous votre système? Que suggérez-vous votre utilisation d'abonnés pour la protection contre la foudre? La planification financière publie ce qui étaient vos coûts de démarrage? Quels sont les coûts exceptionnels liés à ajouter un abonné? Quels sont vos coûts se reproduisants? Que chargez-vous vos abonnés au signe vers le haut? Que chargerez-vous vos abonnés par mois? Combien d'abonnés avez-vous dû décider pour lancer le service? Des diagrammes et des cartes mai nous voyons un diagramme de système? Pouvons-nous voir une carte de voisinage? Pouvons-nous voir une carte de montrer le voisinage et le telco central téléphonique? D'autres cages d'Internet et efforts à bande large locaux sont là d'autres cages d'Internet? Comment est-ce que d'autres ont installé les systèmes à bande large locaux? Du premier concept pour lancer ce qui était la ligne de temps?

Re:FAQ

[return 42]

Yep, machine translation still ain't there yet :)

Re:FAQ

[Anonymous Coward]

One question per post

Does this mean Monsieur Taco will ignore this post?

Re:FAQ

[Anonymous Coward]

\/\/u+ /\/\@yk@ j00 |)1|\|k 3\/r338udd33
kN00z
|-|0\/\/
2
r33|)
j00r 5+00|*x0r
|_@yM600j
j00 5+00|*0r phR3|\|x0r ph06zx0r~~~#%#~~~~??????

|_@y|\/|3 phR3n(h33z $uK @$$^^^***!!!~~!!!``!!!

Biggest Challenge

[Hasie]

What is the most difficult part about starting a community ISP? Is it getting people interested, obtaining finances, finding people with the technical knowledge required to set up and maintain the system, licencing requirements, infrastructure, or something else? More importantly, how did you overcome this problem?

P2P Users and FTPs (from FAQ)

[mochan_s]

Ours is a coop, meaning that every cost we incur must necessarily come sooner or later out of the pockets of the subscribers. We are charged by our upstream provider according to our traffic levels. If a subscriber were to generate so much traffic that we had to pay an extra $250 per month to our provider, we would need to charge that $250 to that subscriber. There would be no other choice.

The reason I got broadband was for P2P. So, doesn't that mean this whole thing is useless for P2P? If I want to check e-mail and ebay I would use 56K modem.

Re:P2P Users and FTPs (from FAQ)

[BitHive]

Well shit, who pays for the bandwidth usage spike that accompanies any slashdotting?

My guess is it'll be a lean x-mas this year in Ruby Ranch...

Re:P2P Users and FTPs (from FAQ)

[Carl Oppedahl]

In our neighborhood, your 56K modem would only get you 26K. (See the FAQ.)

Re:P2P Users and FTPs (from FAQ)

[batboy78]

Summit County, is somewhat of a geographical oddity, sitting off of I-70 just west of the Eisenhower tunnel, the closest large tech city would be Denver and that is quite a ways away, I'm positive that the phone lines really aren't that great in that area

tody on /.

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me put it this way... Let me put it this way... If you come up with anything stoopid, please send me a copy at jive@8oz.com Welcome t'Slashdot De Internet Censo'ship Spam TurboLinux Java faq code awards journals subscribe olda' stuff rob's page preferences submit sto'y advertisin' sdownpo'ters past polls topics about bugs jobs hof Secshuns apache Aug 10 apple Aug 19 (4 recent) articles Aug 20 (28 recent) ax'slashdot Aug 20 (6 recent) scribblin's Aug 19 (1 recent) bsd Aug 16 developuh's Aug 20 (5 recent) features Jul 18 interviews Aug 12 transista' Jun 29 science Aug 20 (7 recent) yro Aug 20 (4 recent) Interviews, dig dis: Ask About Settin' Up some Community ISP De InternetPosted by Roblimo on Tuesday August 20, @12:00PM from de advice-from-someone-who's-already-done-it dept. De Ruby Ranch Internet Coopuh'tive (RRIC) be one uh de best-knode member-owned ISPs around. It provides DSL service t'de Ruby Ranch neighbo'hood in Summit County, Colo'ado. Carl Oppedahl, de RRIC "main man," gots'ta agreed t'answa' Slashdot quesshuns about da damn possibilities and pitfalls uh settin' down sump'n similar in oda' areas. Please eyeball de RRIC FAQs befo'e postin' some quesshun so's dat ya' duzn't ax' sump'n Carl gots'ta already answered some million times. Oderwise, de usual Slashdot interview rules apply, dig dis: One quesshun puh' post, we'll email Carl 10 uh de highest-moderated quesshuns, and post his answers as soon as he gits dem back t'us. ( Read Mo'e. What it is, Mama!.. | 0 uh 2 comments | Interviews ) Infranet, dig dis: Circumventin' Web Censo'ship Censo'shipPosted by michael on Tuesday August 20, @11:20AM from de best-effo'ts dept. edsonw scribbles "In dis sheet presented at da damn 11d USENIX Security Symposium, Feamsta' et alii presented some medod dat provide access t'censo'ed sites while continuin' t'host no'mal uncenso'ed content, usin' covert communicashun and steganographic techniques." De Infranet webpage gots'ta some mo'e info'mashun. No public code yet, dough. ( Read Mo'e. What it is, Mama!.. | 21 uh 45 comments ) Haiku vs Spam SpamPosted by CmdrTaco on Tuesday August 20, @10:41AM from de it-must-be-august dept. Mark Cantrell wuz among several sucka's who sent in some sto'y about some company usin' "Haiku t'Stop Spam. 'S coo', bro. Essentially ya' use some copyrighted Haiku t'tag dat some message meets criteria (1 Recipient, Pre-Existin' Relashunship, etc) which den makes it some simple matta' to filta' de mail. I'm sho' nuff de spammers in China gots'ta laugh wildly as dey fo'ge da damn haiku. Man! ah' challange comment posters t'post only Haiku in dis discussion ;) ( Read Mo'e. What it is, Mama!.. | 271 uh 341 comments ) ISP Bans RIAA t'Protect Its Customers De InternetPosted by michael on Tuesday August 20, @10:02AM from de shot-heard-round-de-net dept. fada' scribbles "Info'mashun Wave Technologies, some no'deastern (US) ISP gots'ta announced dat "it gots'ta actively deny de Reco'din' Industry Associashun uh America (RIAA) fum accessin' de contents uh its netwo'k". Apparently dis be in response t'de RIAA (and MPAA, but dey duzn't seem t'be blockin' dem yet) plan t'actively attack P2P users. All ah' can say is, ya' go, guys. Right On! ah' hope mo'e ISPs gots'ta follow deir lead." ( Read Mo'e. What it is, Mama!.. | 245 uh 317 comments ) Turbolinux Sells Linux Business TurboLinuxPosted by CmdrTaco on Tuesday August 20, @09:11AM from de kin't-say-I'm-surprised dept. bachoom scribbles "Today, NIKKEI(Japanese sto'y) announced dat Turbolinux Inc. sold wo'ldwide Linux business t'SRA, Japanese SI company. Slap mah fro! Turbolinux gots'ta burned drough at least $100 million raised across dree rounds fum some dazzlin' collecshun uh companies includin' Intel, IBM, and many Japanese companies. Currently, Dey wuz sold by $1 million. 'S coo', bro." ( Read Mo'e. What it is, Mama!.. | 93 uh 147 comments ) Developuh's, dig dis: Who be Usin' Tomcat o' Jetty in Producshun? JavaPosted by Cliff on Tuesday August 20, @08:19AM from de open-source-gains=ground dept. JettyCatReady queries, dig dis: "Ok, mah' company (a rada' large, global financial institushun) gots'ta recently blessed Linux fo' producshun use (woohoo. Right On! ). Deir posishun be dat it gots'ta save dem hardware costs t'run on Intel machines instead uh big-ass IBM o' Sun iron. 'S coo', bro. No menshun at all gots'ta been made uh deir posishun on jimmey source. What it is, Mama! I'm part uh a team dat be hankerin' aftah make da damn case dat da damn real savin's are t'be made by makin' use uh din's likes Tomcat in place uh BEA where we kin (if all we wants' be JSP why pay some huge cost puh' server?). ah' even gots' some main man's main man who said in front uh me, 'So I'm dinkin', am ah' missin' sump'n by not usin' Tomcat? Do ah' gots' anydin' t'lose?'" ( Read Mo'e. What it is, Mama!.. | 1396 bytes in body | 194 uh 281 comments | Developuh's ) Science, dig dis: How To Clone A Mammod SciencePosted by timody on Tuesday August 20, @06:30AM from de time-to-steal-a-new-bench dept. psyconaut scribbles, dig dis: "In some sto'y dat sounds mo'e fittin' fo' de big-ass screen dan de London Times, Japanese researchers are plannin' on clonin' some mammod by impregnatin' an Indian elephant. Apparently de source uh de DNA gots'ta be some newly found mammod specimen in Siberia. Sheeeiit. Due t'genetic constraints, de final mammod specimen gots'ta only be 88 pure mammod and da damn process gots'ta snatch about 50 years." ( Read Mo'e. What it is, Mama!.. | 153 uh 220 comments | Science ) Yo' Rights Online, dig dis: Starbucks Clashes Wid WiFi Hobbyists Ova' Airwaves De Almighty BuckPosted by timody on Tuesday August 20, @03:29AM from de dr-evil-at-play dept. fobbman scribbles, dig dis: "Po'tland Oregon's Pionea' Square (de heart uh waaay downtown) gots'ta had free WiFi access provided since February by Personal Telco, which be a local grodown uh clunker hobbyists. Now Starbuck's be plannin' on offerin' de same service on de same band in de same area fo' $29.95 some mond, acco'din' t'dis sto'y in de local fishwrap. Widout regulashun o' licensin', and wid WiFi growin', dis could become some common problem. 'S coo', bro." ( Read Mo'e. What it is, Mama!.. | 169 uh 222 comments | Yo' Rights Online ) Yo' Rights Online, dig dis: Predictin' De End Of Digital Copyin' PrivacyPosted by timody on Monday August 19, @11:59PM from de we-control-de-vertical-we-control-de-ho'izontal dept. prostoalex scribbles, dig dis: "Christian Science Monito' warns about approachin' era uh digital prohibishun. Wid FCC requirin' de use uh copy prevenshun mechanisms in future generashuns uh television sets, soon 'Americans may not be able t'copy some song off some CD, watch some reco'ded DVD at some homey's crib, o' sto'e some copy uh a television show fo' mo'e dan some day'. Of course, no article on dis topic kin go widout some mandato'y quote fum Buckwheat Valenti, who points out, dig dis: 'It be not legal t'make some copy uh a DVD now. Everydin' sucka's are doin' legally today, dey'll be able t'do legally tomo'row'." ( Read Mo'e. What it is, Mama!.. | 302 uh 448 comments | Yo' Rights Online ) Algebra As A Gateway Subject EducashunPosted by timody on Monday August 19, @10:16PM from de next-din'-ya'-know-it's-diff-eq dept. Spock de Baptist scribbles, dig dis: "De Washin'ton Post started some two article series Sunday, and Monday August 18 and 19 2002. De articles deal wid sump'n dat da damn mad, engineerin', and physics faculties at colleges, and universities gots' long knode. Algebra be a 'gateway subject' fo' mad, science, and technology, and secondary farms in general aint doin' some baaaad job teachin' algebra. Sheeeiit." ( Read Mo'e. What it is, Mama!.. | 381 uh 520 comments ) Developuh's Interview, dig dis: Issac Ascher, Tech Lead fo' ActiveState Who be Usin' Tomcat o' Jetty in Producshun? Perl 6 Compila' fo' Parrot Out RIP: De Perl Journal Crush/BRiX: An Expuh'imental Language/OS Pair Vo'bis 1.0 fo' PS2 Linux Bill Kendrick Interview at OSNews Follow Internet2's Upgrade Fuh'rina Graham on Fightin' Spam GCC 3.2 Released Slashdot Login Nickdojigger: Passwo'd, dig dis: [ Create some new account ] Olda' Stuff Monday August 19 Slashback, dig dis: Pop-Ups, Books, Qmail (307) Sandia Labs Creates "Sim-Terro'ist Attack" (151) Wireless Dilemma at Newton's House? (270) Watercoolin' Made Easy (176) Securin' Fiba' Usin' Light Polarizashun (148) ATi Radeon 9700 Full Release Review w/ Benchmarks (307) Did MS Lobbyin' Stop NSA Wo'k On SELinux? (593) Debunkin' (some) DMCA Myds (403) PGP Acquired From NAI (188) Perl & LWP (114) DVD Region Encodin' on Verge uh Collapse? (583) AGP Texture Download Problem Revealed (257) Apple iPhone Rumo's Resurface (203) De Continuin' Rise uh E-Mail Marketin' (275) RIP: De Perl Journal (108) VisionTek Folds (283) Sunday August 18 NYC Law Aims To Ban Cell Phones In Deatres (1025) Quantum Computa' Possible From Silicon Fab (250) Where's GNU/Linux Usage Headed? (372) Crush/BRiX: An Expuh'imental Language/OS Pair (210) Olda' Articles Yesterday's Edishun Slashdot Poll Post-Toilet Hand Washin' I've Observed in oders... All de time All de time, unless dey gots' dose dryers Most uh de time Everytime da damn sink looks clean Rarely Never CowboyNeal sho' nuff looks useful [ Results | Polls ] Comments, dig dis:246 | Votes, dig dis:8151 Book Reviews Slashdot's scribblin' review secshun be brimmin' wid eyeballer-submitted commentary on interestin' scribblin's. Here's some samplin' uh recent reviews -- eyeball below fo' how ya' kin add yo's t'de list. Fo' honky codemers, check out reviews uh de Zope Bible, Programmin' Jabba' and oda' specialized scribblin's. If youse plum tryin' t'manage honky codemers, grumpy's review uh Managin' Einsteins might be plum whut youse lookin' fo'. Meanwhile, keep de company afloat wid lessons learned fum De MouseDriva' Chronicles and De Bombast Transcripts. Science buff? Read Tal Cohen's reacshun t'Rare Eard, and Peta' Wayna' on Digital Biology. Slap mah fro! Don't fo'get da damn grain uh salt in Voodoo Science, eider. Ah be baaad... 'Sup, dudes Dark Materials be one uh de many Science Ficshun titles dat Slashdot eyeballers gots' praised o' panned fo' yo' pleasho' nuff. And somewhere between Sci-Fi and reality are scribblin's likes Flesh and Machines, repo'tin' fum de intersecshun uh yesterday's ficshun and current technology. Slap mah fro! It's easy t'submit yo' own reviews fo' considerashun, too. Just eyeball de Slashdot scribblin' review guidelines, and den use da damn web submission fo'm. 'S coo', bro. Update, dig dis: 20020427 12:50 by timody Quick Links # Cool Sites, dig dis: AnimeFu (Addicted t'Anime?) # Penny Arcade (De First one be always Free) # De Fildy Critic (He Hates Everydin') # Everydin' (Blow yo' Mind) # Old Man Murray (Games... So'ta) # Demes.o'g (Make X Perty) Sdownpo't Slashdot, dig dis: # DinkGeek (Clode Yo'self in Slashdot)
[ Home | Jive ]

Count yourself lucky !

[Taco Cowboy]

If you can get the chance to ask the question "What's the proper way to start (and manage) a community ISP", please thank your lucky star !

I am living in an gawd awful Moslem country where the Net access are tightly controlled - you need to have "ISP license" here - and if you are NOT one of them Moslem sleazeballs, you won't even get the license.

Re:Count yourself lucky !

[Anonymous Coward]

Mods have been had.

If someone lived in a Muslem country and spoke english this well, I think they'd AT LEAST spell Muslem right.

Re:Count yourself lucky !

[Anonymous Coward]

You'll note he didn't say "from" but said "living in." It's quite possible that he moved there for some reason, having grown up in an English speaking country, and managed to mispell Muslem. Or it could have been a typo.

Of course, the mods still could have been had.

Re:Count yourself lucky !

[Anonymous Coward]

Moslem and Muslim are both correct, butt chunk.

Re:Count yourself lucky !

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=moslem

Re:Count yourself lucky !

[Anonymous Coward]

So...
1) you're living in a Moslem country.
2) only moslem sleaseballs can get the "ISP liscense" to get net access in a moslem country
3) you are posting to slashdot

therefore: you are a moslem sleaseball.

Re:Count yourself lucky !

[elmegil]

God knows, Christians and Christian countries have never done anything bad to foreigners.

Here's my favorite relevant quote, from William S. Burroughs: If you're doing business with a religious son of a bitch get it in writing. His word isn't worth shit; not with the good Lord telling him how to fuck you on the deal.

Applies to every kind of religious you might imagine.

Re:Count yourself lucky !

[Taco Cowboy]

You sez:
"God knows, Christians and Christian countries have
never done anything bad to foreigners."

At the very least, no Christians have slammed two planes into tall buildings in the Moslem countries.

Moslems, on the other hand, has done so, to the World Trade Center in New York City.

Just in case you have forgotten, over 3,000 innocent people were brutally murdered !

Re:Count yourself lucky !

[ceejayoz]

The people who hit the WTC were no more Muslim than Hitler was Jewish. They violated many key parts of the religion they claim to follow.

Take your hate speech somewhere else.

Re:Count yourself lucky !

[BitHive]

No, our Christians find it much more effective to use the planes to drop bombs from high above. You get to destroy as many buildings as you like, and you get to keep the plane & its crew, too!

Re:Count yourself lucky !

[libertarian]

I Looooovvvve that quote! One of my all time faves from William.

Re:Count yourself lucky !

[Taco Cowboy]

You sez:

"No, our Christians find it much more effective to use the planes to drop bombs from
high above. You get to destroy as many buildings as you like, and you get to keep the
plane & its crew, too!"

That above practice isn't solely the "priviledge" of the Christians.

The Japs have done it to Pearl Harbor, among other places, during WW II.

The Chinese (atheists and Buddhists) have done that to each others when they fought their civil war.

The Moslems in Sudan have done that to the minority Christians in the south.

And Moslems elsewhere have done similar thing to other Moslems, and also non-Moslems in their own countries.

So don't blame only the Christians.

On the other hand, the Moslems are the ONLY ONE who have slammed 2 passenger jets into WTC, killing over 3,000 innocent people.

No Christians, nor Buddhists, nor Hindu, nor Jews, nor Atheists have done such a thing.

Not yet anyway.

Expensive

[LaNMaN2000]

$60/month seems relatively expensive for a 206Kbps SDSL connection when compared to other cable/satellite/DSL offerings. While this may provide users with greater upstream speeds, most users would benefit more from the faster downstream connections from the aforementioned providers than a better upstream rate.

What advantages does the co-op model offer to subscribers over a traditional ISP that would justify the added expense? How is the subscriber experience different from what would be expected from a large national provider?

Re:Expensive

[yuggoth]

$60/month seems relatively expensive for a 206Kbps SDSL connection when compared to other cable/satellite/DSL offerings. While this may provide users with greater upstream speeds, most users would benefit more from the faster downstream connections from the aforementioned providers than a better upstream rate.

You obviously didn't read the FAQ, did you?

Re:Expensive

[dattaway]

You obviously didn't read the FAQ, did you?

The FAQ was good reading until it got...very....slow.....and.........

Re:Expensive

[mydigitalself]

the history on this is...

Qwest refused to give a small "hick town" (i don't mean to be offensive by that, hence the "") broadband at all. they said it would cost in excess of a million dollars and for about 20-odd users that wouldn't be cost efficient.

so they went ahead and did it themselves for like a 5th of the cost.

the point is, the cost may be relatively expensive to large-town DSL and broadband services, but for them i'm sure that its WORTH IT. and that's the point.

Re:Expensive

[retrac]

do people not realize the difference between a split T1 and a cable modem? Sure the speed seems slower when compared directly to the "faster" speeds of a dsl line.

The reliability and # of hops from a comp to the net between the two is incredible. Why is this never taken into account?

It is always the big two numbers compared 206Kbps vs 1.5Mbps which really doesn't mean a thing comparing two types of connections such as this.

Re:Expensive

[ph0rk]

did you read the FAQ? these users have no other choice, its 206Kbps or a 26Kbps modem.

Also, they plan on raising the bandwidth throttle after they have a better idea what their usage is/will be.

Re:Expensive

[Anonymous Coward]

Satellite service is available in many rural areas throughout the US. DirecPC for example...

Re:Expensive

[September 11, 2001]

What advantages does the co-op model offer to subscribers over a traditional ISP that would justify the added expense? How is the subscriber experience different from what would be expected from a large national provider?

Shouldn't we all be cooperating after September 11, 2001?

Re:Expensive

[perljon]

Satalite service pretty much sucks for most purposes. High ping times make it annoying for most things I do. (You are looking at a 1 to 2 second ping time under most conditions.)

Under a lot of circumstances, the gain in increased bandwidth is lost in slow ping times.

ie, a web page that is 20k takes 1 second to download over modem, but 1-2 seconds over satalite. Gaming, telnet, ssh, chat, voice over ip chat, bi-directional video streaming, etc. become unusable due to the 2 second lag.

It probably says that in the FAQ, but it's been slashdotted already.

Re:Expensive

[Carl Oppedahl]

As may be seen from our web page, there are no "traditional ISPs" serving our area. No cable, no DSL. The chief advantage that our model offers is that the subscriber gets to have a fast, always-on Internet connection. Oh, and we offer a connection that lacks the cost and latency of satellite.

Re:Expensive

[batboy78]

I'm sure that being in a mountain town near Dillon and Frisco would take the toll on satellite connections. Especially with the weather systems that move through there, lots of heavy cloud cover to impede throughput.

Re:Expensive

[sg_oneill]

Shouldn't we all be cooperating after September 11, 2001?

I understand your sentiment, but dude, exploiting S11 for argument points is a little off colour, I lost a cousin on that bitch of a day, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels a little uncomfortable with the way it's bandied about as a justification for, like, everything.I'm not going at you tho , I just needed to say that.
As to the original point , I guess a co-op model offers some sorta accountability/redress over being screwed over. The difference, is that a corporation exists to serve it's share holders, a co-op exists to serve it's members. It's an ideological thing as well, in that it's a friendly demonstration of the anarch-syndical concept. Sorta.

Ruby Ridge?

[Unknown Bovine Group]

Ruby Ridge? We all know how well THAT turned out...

Oh Ruby RANCH.

Re:Ruby Ridge?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ruby ridge went VERY WELL for those of us who cherish a peaceful, civilised society.

Wasn't such a hot day for inbred nazi scum, tho. ;)

Local Bandwidth Hogs?

[Vengie]

Since you pay directly for your traffic, and you've said that you pay from 75-450$ per month (quite a stretch!) have you considered local caching of sites like yahoo, slashdot, etc to save on bandwidth? Also, since you do monitor your network, have you been in a situation where you've had to ask a subscriber to "please use less bandwidth." If not -- if you came to a point where a single household was putting undue strain on the network -- what would the Co-op do?

Re:Local Bandwidth Hogs?

[unicron]

I would think that the number of people using the connection to just check their email or lightly browse the web would be a much greater percentage than the people using theirs to say, run a popular, public ftp warez server. The people barely using theirs' would certainly free up a great deal of bandwidth, probably more than any one or two leachers could hog up.

Re:Local Bandwidth Hogs?

[Vengie]

RTFA -- they have 12 (perhaps more now?) subscribers. _one_ warez kiddie makes a big deal.

Re:Local Bandwidth Hogs?

[TClevenger]

I've never been given an opportunity to moderate, so someone please moderate great-grandparent up.

I'm interested in this one as well. I worked on a home network for a friend. His two kids have Kazaa on their machines (I know, I know.) Point is, even when idle, Kazaa takes up enough bandwidth to put a noticeable strain on the network, and the cable modem to which it is connected. When all you have is a 3MB run (IIRC), one or two Kazaa users can make things miserable for everyone else. I would like to start a similar co-op in my neighborhood (no DSL or cable modems available), but I'm worried about one or two users (starting with my own daughter) dragging the network down.

Maybe a Linux-based bandwidth throttler that gives each house a maximum or quota, and if they want to break that maximum, they're willing to share a larger portion of the load?

Re:Local Bandwidth Hogs?

[atrus]

Throttle Kazaa and other similar items then. Its not hard. You can set up a proxy-arped FreeBSD box with ALTQ installed which sits before your main router for not much at all. If you want a spiffy commercial solution, Packeteer has it.

http://www.packeteer.com/products/packetshaper/

Re:Local Bandwidth Hogs?

[Carl Oppedahl]

The first thing to know is that our subscribers who are likely to have higher traffic levels are using their connections for VPN and Netmeeting uses. Caching is no help with those uses. Second, I don't think caching works except if one user happens to visit the *exact same* web site within a few hours that a previous user did. If the web site has changed during that time (as it would for many news sites such as the New York Times or news.com) the cache doesn't help much if at all. We have a mere dozen users and I don't know that they very often visit the same sites as each other.

Re:Local Bandwidth Hogs?

[toddler420]

from this page: What line speeds do subscribers get? Do they get a dedicated IP address? Can they operate servers?

These are all difficult questions. Ours is a coop, meaning that every cost we incur must necessarily come sooner or later out of the pockets of the subscribers. We are charged by our upstream provider according to our traffic levels. If a subscriber were to generate so much traffic that we had to pay an extra $250 per month to our provider, we would need to charge that $250 to that subscriber. There would be no other choice.

At first, we are going to throttle most of our subscriber connections down to 206K bps. Later, after we accumulate some experience and see what our traffic levels really turn out to be, we will consider raising the connection speeds.

Re:Local Bandwidth Hogs?

[batboy78]

This is an excellent option for the tele-commuters who don't want to live in Denver, but want to be out in the splendor of Colorado beauty.

Re:Local Bandwidth Hogs?

[Vengie]

Right ....
But where do you draw the line? 20$? 40$? 50? 100? 200? 250?!

Re:Local Bandwidth Hogs?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, You're thinking of just caching live news or the such. Most, if not all, websites use the same logos, graphic bars, coporate schemes, etc, even though they've updated their text. And graphics put a bigger strain on the your bandwidth than does text.

Next time you go into Hotmail or CNN, look how much of the page stays they same, even from link to link. Caches can be set up to hold these static images for minutes, days, or months. And if the user is REALLY paranoid about the content being fresh, all they have to do is hit the RELOAD button on the browser.

Even with one user, you can get major benefits by using a web cache. Amd to reduce traffic even more, think about adding Ad-Blocking Technology.

Re:Local Bandwidth Hogs?

[Totally_Lost]

it really comes down to costs, especially if the coop is paying commercial 95th percentile rates for the traffic.

In their case the coop has one T-1's bandwidth to share inside the subscriber base ... the operation of a single kazaa server will eat all that bandwidth, and produce 95th percentile bandwidth bill somewhere between $500-$1,000 ... more if burdened for the cost of the T-1 transport to the coop.

So the question is, do you let one $60/mo user create direct costs 10x their revenue to the coop and ask the other coop members to subsidize it? Or adopt a strict everyone pay's their fair share of costs policy, where nobody subsidizes anybody else?

In our cooperative, we have been struggling with this for the last year ... we adopted a policy that everyone can use just as much bandwidth as they want to pay for - and we don't ask members to subsidize anyone. After the first $450-800 bandwidth bill, most people decide that serving MP3's isn't free, most decide the actually purchasing CD's of music and DVD's of films is by far cheaper.

Our bandwidth distribution last month, included 3 sites that decided to run some flavor of a P2P client or server - all got a bill for the costs they generated. Those 3 sites had use 10-20x the other 47 members in our coop. I don't want my bill inflated 3x to cover the use of anyone else. So this week we revised our fee structure, reducing it 17% for most members to match costs, and created two new metered rates so that the heavy users are free to use as much bandwidth as they want to pay for.

The big objection to SPAM is the spammers don't pay the costs to distribute the spam - it's paid for by everyone else in the chain - the end users.

My big objection to P2P is the same - the P2P users are just like SPAMMER's - they want everyone else to pay for their traffic.

Re:Local Bandwidth Hogs?

[funky womble]

It can help a lot for images, but you really need a much bigger subscriber base for it have enough effect to warrant the cost of the caches. Also, unfortunately it takes a bit of effort for a website to be cache-friendly (things like sending correct Expires: and/or Cache-Control headers, and supplying images from a different URL which doesn't use cookies), and most sites don't seem to care about this.

One area using a cache can help a bit, is if you can run one at each end of the pipe, and route any text/html content through a compressed ssh tunnel. Again, a lot of effort for what usually isn't much return.

Where caches really come into their own is if you've got millions of users and can force everyone to use them.

Legal issues

[return 42]

The times I've considered starting an ISP, it's always been thorny legal issues that made me decide "not yet". Specifically, issues where the law says one thing, and conscience says something else. Demands for censorship using copyright as a bludgeon, as from the Co$. Law enforcement searches and taps (now warrant-free, courtesy of your friendly neighborhood Congress!)

How problematic have you found such issues?

p2p & warez

[Anonymous Coward]

How will you deal with the network and legal issues of p2p and warez downloading?

Where's the question? (N/T)

[Anonymous Coward]

N/T

Vendor advice?

[scubacuda]

What advice would you give a fledgling ISP regarding dealing with vendors?

Getting people intrested.....

[MrWinkey]

Dear Sir,
I have thought many times about this in my area. Only problem is most people are not intrested as it's too much work or too much money. Most of my local community does not even know what DSL is about. They have never had a broadband connect before. How were you able to unite the local community and show them the bennifits of doing this?

Prospects for open space wireless

[dasmegabyte]

When I was in Westcliffe, CO on vacation, I loved the environment so much I considered quitting my job and starting my own business, providing internet access for the acres of sparse plots of land connected only by dirt roads. However, it seemed fairly unfeasible -- since there's no power grid to fuel wireless repeaters and no public roads or conduits to piggyback -- so it was back to the grindstone for me.

How were you able to overcome the conditional sensitivity of high speed data in a rugged area with little or no public utilities? More importantly, how were you able to offset infrastructure costs for such a risky and inherently profitless venture -- did you receive any grants or did you simply float loans?

Re:Prospects for open space wireless

[tHiNk411]

You can get 10+ miles @ 11Mbs from nothing more then pringles cans, and I know of a current 2.4ghz project that is piping 11+Mbs from central California to somewhere in Mexico.

Re:Prospects for open space wireless

[Anonymous Coward]

You DO realize of course, that there is more than dirt roads and ranches here in CO... Lest we forget that Qwest is based here, and no, they don't work out of a barn.

Re:Prospects for open space wireless

[zbuffered]

No, it just seems like they do. They can change their name every other month if they want to, it doesn't change the fact that their DSL sucks it. Sucks it hard. Apologies if you work for Qwest.

Re:Prospects for open space wireless

[perljon]

Meaning you have to have a station every 10 miles, and you have to run power to that station, every 10 miles. Might as well just run the copper/fiber.

Re:Prospects for open space wireless

[Carl Oppedahl]

As described on our web site, we obtained our launch money in the form of loans from subscribers. There were no grants.

Re:Prospects for open space wireless

[dasmegabyte]

Alas, I am a careless Karma Whore and must have skipped that section. Sorry for the repeat.

Re:Prospects for open space wireless

[dasmegabyte]

Yeah, but I liked the ranches best of all. The abundance of health food stores in denver/co springs was also nice, as was the fanTASTIC beer from fort collins' New Belgium brewery.

Re:Prospects for open space wireless

[tHiNk411]

as in my comment from central California to somewhere in Mexico. thats a little further then 10 miles. No base stations inbetween, straight from a tower in cali to a tower in mexico.

Re:Prospects for open space wireless

[Anonymous Coward]

No power is no problem. Set up each repeater with a small solar cell and a lead-acid battery or two. The batteries should have enough storage to last through 36 hours of no sunlight (night-cloudy day-night), and the solar cell large enough to give full charge in one day.

Re:Prospects for open space wireless

[funky womble]

You can run off-the-grid for wireless repeaters - solar, wind power and battery backup should be plenty in most places.

Good quality radios, amplification and antennas at each end can push the signal a lot further than most people would expect.

Running Windows XP?

[Anonymous Coward]

click here
for more fun.

Cutting costs?

[scubacuda]

In today's tight economy, what are some of the ways you've cut costs?

Competition.

[Irvu]

This Slashdot article on Starbucks and the local coop sort of brings up the point that I wanted to ask about; Competition.

Have you faced any stiff, or just plain mean, competition from groups like Quest or do you expect to do so in the future. Are you worried that someone (quest, AOL, etc.) will decide to come in and stomp you in some way or are they simply uninterested in your local area?

Irvu.

Re:Competition.

[Zelet]

this isn't informative it is a repeat of the FAQs. Modders, please read the FAQs before modding posts up to make sure we get original questions.

This is NOT A FLAIMBAIT!!! I just want to make sure that He gets good questions.

Re:Competition.

[Zelet]

I just realized that I wrote "He" rather than "he" (uppercase 'h'). No, we aren't asking God questions... just a person... so he. :)

Re:Competition.

[gouldtj]

I just want to make sure that He gets good questions.

Sorry, this is just too easy :)

Today, in a press release while traveling on Poland, the Pope has said that people should read the documenation before talking to God. "In my discussions with God, He has often complained about getting the same old questions" stated Pope John Paul. "He though he would get rid of this problem by publishing the bible, but it turns out that most people don't read it!"

The Catholic church will be working to counteract this problem by publishing common questions in the format popularized on the Internet: the FAQ. This will be published on the Church's website, and all people wishing to talk to God are encouraged to read it.

"I turns out God only has so much bandwidth" said one Cardinal who wished to be unidentified. "It's kinda like that co-op ISP in Colorado."

Re:Competition.

[Irvu]

I don't think that it is a repeat. He mentions the relationship that they have had with Qwest somewhat but he does not talk about the future much. That was the real thrust of my question.

VOIP?

[isotope23]

I remember reading somewhere in your agreement with Qwest that you could not provide standard phone over their subloops.

My question is what is your take regarding the limitation above and packet based Voice over IP,
since it is now possible for yourself or an unrelated third party provide VOIP on your DSL lines?

Re:VOIP?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the difference between delivering a dial tone to a customer's home and that customer using their internet connectivity along with third party software (and microphones, etc.) to achieve a telephone conversation.

It's hard to think of a good analogy, but I'm sure someone can spin something related to MP3's and the RIAA or copy-protected CDs.

Re:VOIP?

[noah_fense]

Interesting Note: I work in a pre-sales lab and we use coppper mountain DSLAMs and SDSL IADs (intergrated access devices) to deliver VoIP via DSL in conjunction with our media gateway server, softswitch, and signalling gateway server.(Sonus VoIP and OSPA partners)

Most DSL or Braodband IADs that that allow you to connect your existing POTS (Plain old telephone system) phones to a VoIP cost about 300-500$.

We currently have 2 copper mountain DSL IADs in an ongoing demo which support up to 8 POTS phone lines a piece ie 8 people can be talking at once over one DSL line.

Of course, if the cap is at 206k/s you could only use 3-4 phones, but copper mountain does make 2-line DSL IADs that are much more affordable.

Of course VoIP is not really feasable for an ISP of this size unless you expanded your nework to support at least several hundred custumers.

Re:VOIP?

[toddler420]

the problem here is not the technological limitation of providing the equipment or service on the subscriber side.

the largest issue with providing VoIP services (or even VoDSL service) is delivering the aggregated voice traffic to some 3rd party (or to Qwest, if you're a sadist) to provide Class 5/SS7 switching in to the PSTN.

it wouldn't really make sense to do this unless the co-op itself became some kind of voice CLEC, in which case they would need to provide a significantly higher guarantee of service (there's that whole 911 liability thing) and would hence require a seriously higher set of operating costs

Re:VOIP?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm trying to understand the VoIP but not there yet. Can someone educate me if this is a possible solution:
1) Every subscriber has the same phone number but a different extension.
2) Some fractional T-1 or maybe even a cheaper business phone system with just a few lines aggregated.
3) All subscribers use VoIP (maybe connecting their POTS equipment to some board to make it go VoIP).
Doesn't this eliminate the issues of SS7 switching etc.? I mean, my goal is that people CAN call me if they HAVE to and I CAN call if I HAVE to but I really use the phone only to talk to certain people and they have or will have fast connections this year and so can dial my IP address or whatever anyways.
Thanks!
Tim

Re:VOIP?

[ZPO]

From looking at the network diagram it would be logical to place the VoIP/PSTN gateway at the lawyer's office currently providing the interconnection with the upstream ISP.

A PRI from the ILEC (Qwest) would be connected to the media gateway and users would get numbers out of a DID (direct inward dial) block. These blocks are usually purchased in blocks of 10/100/1000. You'd have some issues with LIDB (local information database) fill for the local PSAP (public safety answering point), but it is just more paperwork to coordinate.

I don't know what the local calling scope is for that area of Colorado. If it differs significantly between the subdivision and the law office then you could have some issues. If not then it would work well.

Beyond these issues its just equipment choice..

Re:VOIP?

[Carl Oppedahl]

What I think you are referring to is the question of whether we would have been required to become a CLEC (licensed telephone company) to rent unbundled network elements from Qwest. And the answer is, if we were to carry voice traffic we would have to become a licensed telephone company. The chief issue for the regulators is whether we would be providing voice service where somebody would pick up the phone, dial 911, and we would fail to connect the call properly. And we are not providing such service.

Understanding the pains of leadership...

[Pollux]

Did the co-op ever encounter a point in the planning stage where they wanted to toss everything in the air and just say screw it? If so, what pulled you out of your misery and kept you moving towards your goal?

How do you deal with homosexuals and Apple users?

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you keep your system clean from fags and Apple users, but I repeat myself ...

Moslem, Moslim, Muslem, Muslim

[Taco Cowboy]

No matter how you spell it, they are the one who slammed the planes into WTC, killing over 3000 innocent people.

Only sleazeballs do such thing.

Gawd Awful Sleazeballs !

Ask the non-Moslems who live in countries controlled by Moslems, such as Saudi Arabia, or Indonesia, or Sudan, or Iran, or Pakistan, ask them how they have been treated.

The Pakistan Christians have had their churches bombed, and Christians are being killed INSIDE their churches !

Similar things happen in Indonesia, Sudan, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Malaysia, and so on.

In Sudan, Christian minority in the south are being slaughtered by the barbaric Moslems from the north.

The only thing that Moslems bring into this world is BLOODY VIOLENCE. But don't blame the Moslems.

It's their ALLAH who told them to do so. At least, Osama Bin Laden thinks so !

Next time you see a Moslem, ask him or her about "Jihad", ask the Moslem about the "49 virgins waiting in heaven" for those who "sacrifies for Allah".

It's all in their "Quran", their blood-soaked book from and by the DEVIL himself !

Re:Moslem, Moslim, Muslem, Muslim

[elmegil]

Clearly the words of a man who's bothered to read the book himself. NOT.

I think you can hardly do better in "blood soaked" than stories of God telling you to kill all the women and children along with the men. What book is that in? The Bible. Christians have of course done nothing to persecute others. They didn't, for example, kill millions in the so-called inquisition and the Crusades (the Children's Crusade being one of the really great ones, go look it up), and that's just the easiest example to come up with.

BTW I did ask a Muslem I know about Jihad etc, and he was very clear that the BS about the 49 virgins etc are about as representative of mainstream Islam as Pat Robertson is of mainstream Christianity; i.e. not one damn bit. Of course I don't expect your bigoted ass to actually bother checking on the propaganda you're being fed by the Christian right (who stand right behind those people killing other people if it's "for the right cause"...see the nuremburg files website for another example).

How do you handle the legal issues.

[dcocos]

There has been a lot of talk in setting up similar systems (wired and wireless) in Northern Virginia* one of the topics that always comes up during the discussions is "How do you handle issues like people using the line to hack other systems or spamming or sending threats or (insert bad thing here) ?"


*Despite the fact that I live 10 minutes from WorldCom and AOL headquaters my ONLY choices for broadband are IDSL (which I chose) or a T1 (which I'm willing to pay for on my own)!

Damn you people!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I was just beginning to read the FAQ's when suddenly *POOF*, the website's slashdotted out of existence.

(sigh)

Coop business questions

[dogfart]

How is you coop incorporated? As a non-profit or as a shareholder coop? Did you investigate the pros and cons of different incorporation models? Any ideas/suggestions for someone else doing this? Did you get any assistance from national co-op organizations? If so, were they helpful? How is your coop governed? Do you hold annual member meetings? Are there other mechanisms for shareholder participation?

Re:Coop business questions

[dogfart]

Ok, in response to baldass_newbie's considered criticism, I will reformulate the question:

I have noted you are incorporated as a non profit. Does Colorado permit incorporation as a shareholder cooperative (many farm-belt states allow this)? If so, did you investigate this as an option?

Point of Presence

[Callamon]

Is it necessary to have a business-zoned point of presence for your central CO, or can the trunk lines be run to a residential address and the equipment put in the basement?

personal relations...

[lawngnome]

would you say that it is easier dealing with local customers in a personal way that the "big boys" dont? or does this make business harder? do people try to sweet talk you?

Data collection

[Launch]

Obviously you need to monitor your users for bandwidth consumption... What type of information do you store about your user's bandwidth behaviour? Is it more then what the fedral government requires you store about your users? Do the members of the co-op mind being watched, or do they consider it a downside to Co-Op'ed ISPs?

Re:Data collection

[Carl Oppedahl]

We use MRTG on a per-port basis on the DSLAM. This is aggregate data -- nothing about MRTG records will indicate the IP addresses involved. I am not aware of any requirement from the federal government that we should store any data. Can you elaborate on this requirement?

Let me ask it THIS way....

[NDPTAL85]

What you really mean is, you got broadband so you could pass on the cost of your most likely heavy usage of Intellectual Propertry infringement software onto your ISP instead of at least paying for conducting your own illegal activities yourself?

Of course, this being Slashdot you'll probably reply that "Information wants to be free" at which point I would most likly respond, "Information isn't an animal. It can't want anything. It isn't alive nor does it have any conciousness. And if we're going down that route, then Rent wants to be Paid! Lexus's want to be bought....etc"

I apologize in advance if you have legitimate legal uses for P2P software.

Re:Let me ask it THIS way....

[mochan_s]

Duh, no need to elaborate on the obvious.

OK, I'm not with the whole information wants to be free idealogy but hey, I think I can rationalize by myself why I shouldn't be paying for some of the things I download.

Yes, that is the whole idea of me getting broadband is spread the cost among people who use it very little and subsidize the cost for me. I don't use as much of other membership (or things from taxation) as others do. But, I like using up a little more broadband than my neighbor but my neighbor probably watches more TV than I do.

Feds wanna take a look

[Launch]

Since the Fedral government may now put a 'tap' on internet connectivity without a warrent, ISPs are required to let feds put taps on the ISP's system. As member of a co-op would you be contacted if the feds put a tap on the ISP? Who gets to know when the feds come in?

Re:Feds wanna take a look

[gimpboy]

they would probably just tap his upstream provider (qwest) and the coop probably wouldn't have a clue.

Re:Feds wanna take a look

[Nonesuch]

They would probably just tap his upstream provider (qwest) and the coop probably wouldn't have a clue.

That's pretty much the same assumption we have made. It does mean that the feds will have more data to sift through, and that they will have a more difficult time picking out individual users where they use shared resources (mail relay, http proxy, etc).

And for the truly paranoid, there's always SMTP/TLS and anonymizing SSL proxies.

Have you read the Quran ?

[Taco Cowboy]

You speak as if you have read the Quran.

I have.

If you had read the Quran, you would know that the "49 virgins" thing is FROM the pages of Quran.

If it's "BS", then it's definitely BS from those who wrote the Quran.

And one more thing, those who had slammed the planes into WTC and killed over 3000 innocent people are DEFINITELY Moslems.

Yes, Christians in the past have done terrible things. But it's IN THE PAST !

Two wrongs don't make a right.

You just don't equate the wrongs Christians had made in the past to the CURRENT VIOLENCE that are being initiated by the bloody Moslems.

I am NOT saying that Christians have NO sins. It's that in TODAY'S WORLD, it's the Moslems who are perpetrating the violence.

NOT THE CHRISTIANS !

You do owe an apology to the over 3,000 people who have perished in the WTC bombing. They have died because of the bloody Moslem's believe that they will get their fill of 49 virgins (boys and/or girls) who are waiting for them in their "heaven" to "serve" them, just because those bloody assholes have "sacrified" themselves for their bloody "Allah".

Re:Have you read the Quran ?

[elmegil]

Christians have done no wrong for decades. Right. Let's take this to a better, more current analogy: Do you think racist skinheads who think nothing of beating and killing blacks, jews, and homosexuals represent Christianity? They claim to. Does this mean that they represent all Christians, or that all Christians should be held accountable for their crimes? I don't. And I don't think that the hijackers, for all the great horror of their crime, actually have any credibility to speak for Islam either. Just as you can pull words of the Qu'ran out of context and use them to justify bigotry against all Moslems (or however you want to spell it), I can pull similar words out of the Bible to justify the same kind of hatred for Christians (and if I pick the right sections, I can justify hatred for Jews while I'm at it).

To claim that you, as someone completely outside the culture and traditions of Islam, can speak with authority on what the Qu'ran means is laughable. When a friend of mine who has practiced Islam all his life tells me about his religion, I trust and believe him far more than some bigot who has had the whole "Moslems are bloody terrorists, cos it says so in one line of a huge book" drummed into his head for decades without bothering to look any further into the reality of this claim among the actual followers of the religion.

Of course now I can hear your yammering about "it says so in clear language"; well, you know what? The constitution says in clear language that Congress shall MAKE NO LAW respecting an establishment of religion or the free exercise thereof, but I hear Christian Morons repeatedly claiming that this doesn't mean what it says, and that all our laws should be Christian laws. So tell me again why plain language is "obvious" in one place and "obviously not intended that way" in another.

WebsenseTM, My Ancient Rival

[Gaggme]

A few weeks after my start date as a new Web Admin, I find our neighborhood IS director has installed a WebsenseTM client on our web access portal. After many heated battles with the COO, I lost my fight to maintain a open portal for both the IS and IT Departments. The web has lost all sense of worth to us now. Imagine any security setting available, then jack it up 3 more levels, that is the extent of our denials. No FTP, No search engine , No IM client existant (at least that we have tried) has access. This hinders our work severly all in the guise of "Corporate Efficency". Any request for these type of access surrounded in forms, "Who its for" "Where its going" so on and so forth. A simple file transfer or upload is so difficult. An alternative like this would be a godsend for my comrades and I, even if it is against our internet policy and could get us fired. It would be easier to be unemployeed than the BS we have to take now

Re:WebsenseTM, My Ancient Rival

[Anonymous Coward]

And you still have the ability to read slashdot, eh?

How "mainstream" you wanna get ?

[Taco Cowboy]

Let me quote you:

"BTW I did ask a Muslem I know about Jihad etc, and he was very clear that the BS about
the 49 virgins etc are about as representative of mainstream Islam as
Pat Robertson is of mainstream Christianity; i.e. not one damn bit."

1. Will that "Muslem you asked" (or is THAT YOU ?!) tell the REAL TRUTH, about Jihad, and/or about the 49 virgins ?

2. If you want to get mainstream for the Moslems, you can't go further than that bloody Quran. The "49 virgins awaiting in heaven for those who martyled themselves for Allah" bit is IN THE QURAN !

Pray tell, where in Bible do you see any mention of "Pat Robertson"?

Re:How "mainstream" you wanna get ?

[libertarian]

Perhaps there's a special "Pat Robertson" edition of the Bible for sale?

BigBrother

[lesburn1]

Are there any devices (surveillance etc.) mandated by BigBrother?

Co-ops for low income communities

[selan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like Ruby Ranch is a fairly well-to-do area that can support the costs of running an ISP. Do you think it is possible for community groups in low income areas to run co-op ISPs? Any advice pro or con?

Re:Co-ops for low income communities

[Carl Oppedahl]

For us what made the Coop possible was not so much money as the availability of volunteers with sufficient technical and legal experience. I would say that any community, low-income or not, that had such volunteers available could make a go of it.

Re:Co-ops for low income communities

[j1mmy]

Do you think it is possible for community groups in low income areas to run co-op ISPs?

If they can afford a computer, they can probably afford some sort of internet service.

faq mirror

[gimpboy]

dear lord people give this poor man a break.

here's a mirror of the faq. i hope it helps.

My questions...

[Whispers_in_the_dark]

How do you get even a small community to agree to undertake something like this and when problems do arise who is responsible for the technical support?

Re:My questions...

[Carl Oppedahl]

Our tech support is done by volunteers. That is sometimes a problem.

Barriers to co-ops

[blamanj]

Are there legal or regulatory barriers to setting up an ISP co-op that you feel should be addressed by legislation?

People with too much time on their hands

[jimbobborg]

Have you had any problems with people breaking into eachothers machines, and if so, how did you handle it? Is there a policy in place forbidding this kind of thing? And have you had anyone from outside your network break in?

Re:People with too much time on their hands

[Carl Oppedahl]

As described in our FAQ, we are requiring each subscriber to use a broadband router/firewall. This hopefully minimizes this problem.

Go national

[anthony_dipierro]

Do you have any plans to go national with your ISP? Why or why not?

Re:Go national

[Anonymous Coward]

Can I add...

If you did go national, then would you do it yourself or jion with other similar ISPs ?

Re:Go national

[Carl Oppedahl]

We are a bunch of unpaid volunteers. Providing tech support to people far away strikes me as something that is unlikely to go well.

But hopefully our FAQ would provide some help to would-be organizers in other areas. And under the 1996 Act, others can "opt in" to the contract we signed with Qwest.

Re:Go national

[anthony_dipierro]

And under the 1996 Act, others can "opt in" to the contract we signed with Qwest.

Ah... That's what "opt in" means. Very cool. Is anyone using Qwest eligible or only in Colorado?

I guess most of the costs would have to be repeated at each CO anyway, so I guess the only possibilty of a national network of coops would be a bunch of independent ones who eventally gather the critical mass to start peering with each other. In other words, ain't gonna happen. :)

Worth it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you think it was worth all the effort you put it (especially since your not getting paid)?

Re:Worth it?

[Carl Oppedahl]

Well, it surely involved an enormous amount of donated time. It is very gratifying to see the functioning service.

Disciplining "Customers"

[mr.buddylee]

As mentioned in your FAQ, if someone hogs too much bandwidth, you'll charge that user for the bandwidth they use. What do you do in the case of complaints against a user for spam, pornography, or other less than desirable uses? Since it's a co-op and the costs are shared, what about the responsibility? What if the ISP was targeted as a spam host or if one of the people under your ISP was serving illegal MP3s or something more sinister like child pornography? Does the entire Co-op suffer or are you able to target and remove the offending person (and avoid any legal costs that might be brought against the ISP)?

Equipment Location

[dr_dank]

IIRC, the DSLAM and other relevant gear was stored in a barn. How do you keep the animals from messing with it?

Re:Equipment Location

[Carl Oppedahl]

It's in a metal cabinet. So far that has been enough. See http://www.rric.net/barn/ for a photo of the cabinet.

RTFP!!!

[baldass_newbie]

As a non-profit or as a shareholder coop?

Read the fucking page, would you? It's right on the first fucking page.

Click a link, it's not that fucking tough.

Re:RTFP!!!

[dogfart]

Read the fucking page, would you? It's right on the first fucking page. Click a link, it's not that fucking tough.

Oh, its buried under the "startup costs" link. Sorry I didn't review the FAQ in enough detail to find this information buried here.

I will try hard in the future not to provoke your Tourette's Symdrome . I will try to understand how hard it is for you to keep your uncontrollable outbursts of obscenity under control.

There is treatment for this condition. You should consider seeking it.

[ot] in the qur'an also.

[Anonymous Coward]

it's kinda off topic, when the qur'an addresses this topic it states that all business should be done in writing with a witness present. it also stresses this when doing business with people of the jewish persuasion.

Local Phone service

[asmithmd1]

Since the SDSL equipment you are using does not use the voice bandwidth, have you thought of getting a PBX and supplying telephone service? You could at least have intercom service between subscribers

Why that choice of monitoring software?

[CarlPatten]

One area where open-source is doing great is in monitoring projects, such as Big Brother, NetSaint , Nagios, and others. I'm curious as to why you went with a commercial product instead of a free (as in beer and speech) one.

Re:Why that choice of monitoring software?

[Carl Oppedahl]

As you may see in our FAQ, we do most of our monitoring with MRTG. See http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&e ntry=78084296 by the way. Thank for the pointers to the other products.

What difference have you made in the community?

[Foozy]

OK, you've got technology, you've got customers, you've got exposure on slashdot.

What difference has your service made in the local community? Can you cite specific instances where your service impacted the lives of others, for good or for, uh, not so good?

Re:What difference have you made in the community?

[Carl Oppedahl]

Two neighborhoods in our county are now working on setting up their own DSL coops, rather like ours. Our work was what got them thinking about it.

Cooperatives inherently better utilities?

[foo fighter]

I'm served by a telecom cooperative in my community (Souris River Telecom in Minot, ND). I couldn't be happier: local and long-distance phone service is very inexpensive, they've set up an all-digital cellular network in their coverage area that's $20/month for basically unlimited talk-time, and I get 1 megabit (bothways) DSL with a static IP and no limits on servers I set up for $40/month. Oh, and here's the kicker: when I call them with a question or for service I get a real, live person on the other end and am routed to someone who can actually help me the first time!

I used to live in an area that was served by an electric co-op. It was the same situation with great service, great value, and they were constantly pushing at the edges of the state-of-the-art. The investor-owned electric utility that serves me now couldn't care less about me as a person, my needs, or future plans for my home or business. They just want to see the check at the end of the month and they will keep operating the way the do (utility wise if not business wise) until they are forced to change by regulatory changes.

So to get to my question: as advantageous to the customer as the cooperative principles are, why aren't more utilities set up this way?

Re:Cooperatives inherently better utilities?

[Zwack]

Greetings,

I'm currently about to buy a house in a Rural part of Oregon... It seems that local co-ops differ wildly depending on where you are.

In the area that I've been looking at there are at least three small phone companies. Two of which are co-ops (this is over about 4 or five exchanges, one small utility company has two exchanges, one co-op has one exchange and the other co-op has one or two...)

Out of these three providers, the small investor owned company has fibre to all the homes in one exchange and provides DSL in that exchange. It doesn't have DSL in the other exchange yet, but they are planning it. They also have a strict NO SERVERS policy.

Out of the two Co-ops, one of them provides Cable TV and Cable Modem as well as Phone service. They seem to have a reasonable "no unauthorised servers" policy but when I enquired it is basically a strict NO SERVERS policy. The remaining one has fibre almost everywhere, offers DSL and basically says "Hey, you're paying for it, you can run servers if you want..."

So, it seems that it just depends. The one that I'll probably end up with is the one with Cable TV... :-( Having read their information they seem to be very much into the push culture. They promote Cable Modem as a great way of bringing the wonders of the internet to your home.

Has anyone else come across this same dichotomy of sevice providers? "Here's a way you can consume more"... compared to "Here's a way you can help build a global community."

Looking further afield in Oregon it seems that at least the samller providers are split fairly evenly 50-50 between the 'Consume what we give you' and 'Here's a great enabler' factions.

Z.

Re:Cooperatives inherently better utilities?

[foo fighter]

Well, if you join a co-op you are basically an investor and have a loud voice in deciding company policy.

That means if you don't like the way they are running the business you can use the democratic process to your advantage: get support from other customers/investors, take control of how things are being run, and change them to the way you like them.

I've seen it done before, and because each customer/investor has one vote it's much more possible (ie takes much less cash and people) to be a catlyst for change in a co-op than in a corporation.

Also, as a customer of a coop you get part of the profit back at the end of the fiscal year. That's very cool.

Re:Cooperatives inherently better utilities?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it's COMMUNISM, and that just won't do!

What advantages to being user owned?

[Monkeyman334]

I work for a small ISP that went through all the same issues as you. We had to become a CLEC, install our own DSLAM in a Qwest central office, and are currently going through IMA. So what I'm saying is your internet setup looks totally independent of whether it's an Internet Coop or a for profit company. Is there a technology advantage to making it a coop, or is it purely financial?

Re:What advantages to being user owned?

[Carl Oppedahl]

A chief advantage for us is that we needed to put our DSLAM in a barn that was owned by the neighborhood. Being a nonprofit coop was important to the neighborhood in giving us permission to use the barn.

Re:What advantages to being user owned?

[Monkeyman334]

That sounds helpful, but still, I see no technological difference between the for-profit ISP I work for and your coop. We did all our work using none of the documents found on your website and had the same result. Is there anything you had to do differently, anything you had find out on your own? Or is it basically a for-profit setup that's owned by the community?

Re:What advantages to being user owned?

[toddler420]

the advantages here seem to be mostly financial and logistical.

by putting the DSLAM in a barn in the community, not only does the community save money (by not having to collocate with Qwest, not a cheap prospect), but they don't have to deal with the nightmare of accessing their own damn equipment in the CO.

You say that your employer is an ISP with a collocated DSLAM? Have you ever tried to access a Qwest CO? Or even attempted to get authorized to access a Qwest CO? (they are individual issues, you know; having permission to have access and actually getting access are 2 very different things)

RIAA

[xStopherx]

Have you had to deal with the RIAA or blocking songs or ports or anything, basicly DMCA violations?

Different approaches?

[pokeyburro]

Based on the FAQ, it looks like you considered a lot of different possible options, and really did your homework. Are there any aspects of the project that weren't perhaps as optimal as you'd like, that you would have done differently? (Not counting things not under your control, like having to contend with Qwest.)

Unfortunate Effects Due to Slashdotting

[billatq]

After reading your FAQ about how you are currently limiting your connection speeds to 206 kbps to avoid passing costs to your customers. Since you are hosting your own web site, how do you plan to deal with the spike of bandwidth to your site without passing great costs to the others in RR?

Re:Unfortunate Effects Due to Slashdotting

[Carl Oppedahl]

Our patent law firm (www.patents.com) buys the connectivity from the upstream provider. Our patent law firm also hosts the rric.net web site. We then provide connectivity to the Coop for the DSLAM and we bill through to the Coop its share of the traffic cost. So the two previous slashdottings were paid for by our patent law firm, and today's slashdotting is being paid for by our patent law firm. The Coop won't have to pay for it. As you will have picked up from the FAQs, our patent law firm is providing lots of things to the Coop free of charge. Access to the T1, the microwave system, tech support, legal support, and other things.

Try the Home Page, Genius

[baldass_newbie]

It's not buried anywhere It's on the Front Page.

And then you have the nerve to insult me by ascribing a nervous disorder to me. If you weren't the 50th person to post a question that was 1.) already answered and 2.) on the first page of the site, I wouldn't lose my shit. Tough to tell whether you're trolling or stupid.

Boy, you're fucking dense.

Re:Try the Home Page, Genius

[dogfart]

Its not on the front page of the FAQ. The FAQ is what we were directed to read, in order to avoid redundant questions.

I didn't know whether you had a nervous disorder or whether you are just plain rude. I thought I would be charitable and assume you did not have complete control over your faculties, as in polite society people do not correct an honest mistake with a string of obscenities. Doing so is usually considered a sign of a mental disorder.

You have answered my question. You really are just plain rude.

Grants available for rural ISPs?

[The Llama King]

Were you able to tap into any grant money for rural community Internet providers, are or are these funding sources a thing of the past? I was under the impression there is money available for rural Internet infrastructure - is it real, or is it vaporcash?

Re:Grants available for rural ISPs?

[WirelessFreak]

Here ya go:

http://www.usda.gov/rus/telecom/broadband.htm

http://www.usda.gov/rus/telecom/initiatives/index_ initiatives.htm#broadband

YLZLMV

[Anonymous Coward]

Your Local Zoning Laws May (read definitely will) Vary. There doesn't have to be a rational basis for, nor a discernable pattern to their variation. So this one can only be answered by your local zoning board.

Points of Failure

[evil_eyes]

It looks as though you have some possible points of failure: The T1 between NetTrack in Boulder and O&L in Dillon, and the single microwave tower at O&L. I noticed that there are two microwave towers from there on. Are there any plans for redundancy for your connection should the single microwave tower at O&L be lost or the T1 between NetTrack and O&L go down?

Re:Points of Failure

[Carl Oppedahl]

No, we can't afford to do more than we have already done in the way of redundancy. The SPFs you have identified are of genuine concern to us but we don't have enough money to do anything about them.
If we were to bring in another T1, for example, it would be physically routed the same way anyway, so a backhoe cut would knock out both of them anyway.

Wow ... lawyer fees must have been pro-bono.

[Jobe_br]

After reading through most of the FAQ, it would appear that the co-op has a very good relationship with the Oppedahl & Larson LLP law firm. I would posit that of key importance in this venture is not acquiring the routing gear, the microwave tower gear, the DSLAMs or DSL modems, but rather getting one of your volunteers to be an attorney! Getting Qwest to allow the co-op to rent subloops would have cost a considerable amount of money in attorney fees, if a law firm were not a board member of the co-op (and the location of the T1+microwave gear ;)).

I remember what it cost to incorporate my business, to enter into a lease for an office space, to agree to terms for insurance for the office space, etc. Thousands of dollars, easily. And we went with a local law firm, recommended by another small business - so we weren't getting shafted, at least not relatively so.

Cheers.

Re:Wow ... lawyer fees must have been pro-bono.

[Carl Oppedahl]

You are right, of course, our patent firm (http://www.patents.com) gave tens of thousands of dollars of free legal time to the Coop. But we had other pro bono legal help from others within our neighborhood also. The good news is, if anybody else in Colorado wants to do what we did, they can opt into our agreement and not have to spend money on lawyers.

Re:Wow ... lawyer fees must have been pro-bono.

[Jobe_br]

That is indeed a good thing. Wish that would be extendable to the rest of the nation :)

Well, kudos to all of you - having read all the information linked from the FAQ, you folks fought the good battle and so far, have won!

Any billing issues?

[toddler420]

I noted in the FAQ that there is mention of the fact that the service is billed on a quarterly basis (rather than monthly) for ease of administration.

Being an employee of one of the few DSL DLEC's left out there in RBOC-space (due to the fact that partner ISP's/wholesale purchasers tended to burst along with the hideously over-eschewed dotcom bubble), this is an issue that hits very close to home for me:

Do you anticipate, or have any contingencies for, a time when the co-op will not be able to meet it's financial obligations to it's various providers?

Obviously, size does matter in this case, but this is still a valid question. What if 20 (half of the reported number of) homes in Ruby Ranch are destroyed in one of the Colorado "super-fires", for example? Can the co-op continue to maintain network equipment and availability at half revenue (assuming that some portion of the 20 homes constitutes half the subscriber base)?

Re:Any billing issues?

[Carl Oppedahl]

Our patent law firm (www.patents.com) would keep the T1 going in any event for the firm's own needs.
If we were to lose half our member homes, we would no longer have to pay Qwest for the subloops to those homes. So the chief recurring cost for a lost home would go away.

this is hideously offtopic, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

you know, this is exactly what causes these types of incidents to occur in the first place.

some thoughtless person attempts to "expound" (however incorrectly) on the theology/ideology of something he/she has little-to-no information about or on the items at the top of his/her own personal agenda. (ever heard the expression "a little knowledge is dangerous")

if they're a good enough politician or the people listening are under enough economic/social strain, this person sounds like they have all the right answers; shortly thereafter, those who were once just listeners are then pointing guns (or dirty words) at the enemies of the pontificator/know-it-all/loudmouthed bastard.

this brings to mind pictures of hitler, mussolini, and (more recently) bin laden and the taco cowboy.

SBC Ameritech Remote Terminals

[devmrs]

I am trying to do the same thing in my SBC Ameritech community. I've been told I have to register with some state agency and then I will qualify to begin the SBC Ameritech process of becoming a CLEC. It looks to me like I would have to hire a telecommunications attorney to figure out all the paperwork and then finally get to install a $5,000 DSLAM out at the remote terminal. Are they making me jump through too many hoops?

Re:SBC Ameritech Remote Terminals

[Carl Oppedahl]

In Colorado, at least, the position of the state regulator is that it is not necessary to be a CLEC (licensed telephone company) to rent subloops from Qwest. I gather the situation is the same in New Mexico. Maybe it is the same where you are, I don't know.

Re:SBC Ameritech Remote Terminals

[devmrs]

We are in Illinois. This is great news! I guess I will proceed with incorporating and going directly to the connection agreement and see what happens.

Lawyers setting up a community ISP...

[Anonymous Coward]

Free legal support can be a huge help in getting started...

Since the day our Co-Op in Chicago was founded, one of the biggest member "users" has been a local law firm, and half of the original board were attorneys (down to 25% now). In retrospect, such a high concentration of lawyers was pretty much a pre-requisite, given the name of the Co-op.

Having a place to meet and being able to get all of the legal issues out of the way (without paying attorney fees) made it possible to get the organization off the ground on a "shoestring" budget.

We also ended up with what I feel is a really solid set of bylaws.

slashdot suggestion

[Anonymous Coward]

the \. coders should implement a seperate poll-like mod system for these interview type things. that what the questions actually posed would be more reflective of what WE actually want to know.

pls discuss

Help from other co-ops and organizations

[dogfart]

Have you contacted or worked with organizations supporting co-ops, such as The National Cooperative Business Association

If so were they helpful?

OT: Terry?

[Amazing Quantum Man]

If TClevenger is the Terry Clevenger who worked at Litton Data Systems in the '80s, could you drop me an email at "sconeu@yahoo.com"?

Thanks.

Re:OT: Terry?

[TClevenger]

I'm not, but if you get his email address, forward it along, because I get asked that often. :-)

Tim

Same setup in a different setting

[Servo]

Do you think this would be a worthwhile endevour for communities to persue if they are already serviced by a local telecom company, but for whatever reason aren't happy with there options? ie, poor service, cost too high given the local income level, etc.

Re:Same setup in a different setting

[Carl Oppedahl]

There is no way we would have expended our thousands of hours of volunteer time if there had been any local DSL or cable modem options. Especially if the only problem were cost. Suppose the local DSL were $90 per month and we were to spend $50,000 worth of our volunteer time trying to provide a $60-per-month option. That would be irrational.

no t-1 from qwest?

[way2trivial]

from faq
q:Why all this struggle with Qwest?

a:Qwest says they can't bring a T1 line anywhere near our neighborhood


I thought the FCC tariff for phone companies had a REQUIREMENT that t-1 service be available to anyone in the US with telephone service.. or large ugly fines resulted.

Re:no t-1 from qwest?

[Carl Oppedahl]

There is no such requirement in Colorado. In Colorado the PUC says that T1 is "unregulated". The PUC's position is that only "regulated" services (basically, residential phone service and business service with up to two lines) are ones which Qwest must provide to anyone who asks. If you ask the PUC for help getting a T1, their answer is "that's a fully competitive market and we don't regulate it, you have plenty of other choices."

Prior Co-op experience

[dogfart]

Did any of your members have prior experience either as members or organizers of a co-op (e.g., housing, food, etc.)? And if they did, how beneficial was their prior experience?

Re:Prior Co-op experience

[Carl Oppedahl]

Nope, no prior experience. But the chief skills needed (router programming, microwave link design, DSL configuration, inside wiring skills, outside plant skills, ability to litigate with the phone company) are skills that would not automatically be found in a housing or food coop. It's not like bagging groceries or stocking shelves or operating a cash register.

Administration

[sophits]

Are you the only person that has "enable" level access to all the equipment? Do some of the subscribers have "enable" access?

Re:Administration

[Carl Oppedahl]

This is an area we have talked about a lot within our Coop. Right now I am the only one. If I am out of town there is nobody to troubleshoot it. We plan to try to train some of our neighbors to know how to troubleshoot and I would then set them up with "enable" access. It is an area of great concern.

Getting people to sign on

[scode]

I am currently involved in a project where we are trying to launch a WaveLAN based internet service to custerom's in a small area (200-300 houses). No DSL alterantives are available from any major supplier, and the cost of a pair of copper wires alone makes using DSL to expensive for the customer.

Initially, at least 50 people reported interest. We later learned there were many people interested who had not responded to the initial call for interest. It looks like there are 50-100 houses in the area seriously interested in an internet connection of this kind.

We recently started taking orders; so far we have slightly about 10. Probably because most people are waiting for other people's experience, etc. We're not sure. We have a few cards to play in order to spice up interest, but not much.

How did *you* get people to commit?

Local Gov't help/hinder/no factor?

[dogfart]

Did local government help, hinder, or just keep out of the way? Likewise, would positive support from applicable local governments really have benefited your project? I would guess you folks are in an unicorporated area of the County, with few onerous restrictions on this typs of activity, however with no local government to provide support (facilities, funding, political support, etc.)

Re:Local Gov't help/hinder/no factor?

[Carl Oppedahl]

With the exception of our neighborhood metropolitan district, local government served us poorly. A couple of local towns established a "Summit County Telecommunications Consortium" the stated goal of which was supposedly to bring broadband to our county. This lulled us into thinking some results would follow, and they did not. As far as I can tell the consortium did nothing to advance deployment of broadband. So we lost about a year. Had we known better, we would have ignored the consortium and pushed ahead with our plans a year earlier.
Our neighborhood metropolitan district helped a lot, making the barn available for our DSLAM and in other ways.

Legal help

[dogfart]

I appears you had a law firm (Oppedahl & Larson LLP ) working very closely with you, as an early and active participant in this experiment.

Other communities trying to replicate your experience may not be so lucky. Do you have any advice on how to get legal assistance, for groups not having law firms as among their early members?

Equipment Issues

[Cylix]

With the big players, its often easier to purchase the more expensive equipment necessary to provide a thoroughly enjoyable experience towards its users. ie, corporate entities that can make mega-deals and grab huge discounts on gear.

Where would you recommend looking for the necessary equipment to create a smaller ISP. At some other organizations I've worked for, we have had jointly purchased equipment with other smaller ISP's for a price break. These smaller shops drying up or selling out in the wake of the dot com bust, I would like to hear your recommendations and approaches on this subject.

Ideally, if someone could list some affordable vendors of goods I would be overjoyed.

What can WE do?

[gone.fishing]

Many people in the Slashdot community have been following your efforts for many months now. Frankly, the "David VS Goliath" aspects of the case make this a very interesting story. I always love it when the little guy wins!

It seems that Qwest was more than a little unwilling and uncooperative with you. Many of us have been there and done that in much smaller doses. Those of us that have been there would love to change that - force the monopolys to deal with small entities or even individuals appropriately and fairly. Many of us are of the opinion that is a big reason why we have government in the first place (to protect the little guy and make sure he gets a fair shake).

As people - what can we do to make sure Qwest and similar entities are made to deal with us little folks more fairly?

wireless hardware quality and setup

[cheezus_es_lard]

I'm currently in the process of setting up a basic community wireless co-op in my little town. I'm opening a store downtown (for a different business project) but plan to put an AP there to service businesses in the area. I'm currently going el-cheapo, with linksys WAP11s and high-gain omni antennas. In your opinion, is there a 'perfect' setup for each implementation type, e.g. long-range backhaul vs. wide area coverage, consisting of a WAP and antennae, to provice access. And how does cost balance out for you if you go for the more expensive Orinoco APs or some such?

Thanks for the advice.

Well ...

[Taco Cowboy]

You sez:

"Perhaps there's a special "Pat Robertson" edition of the Bible for sale?"

For the Moslems, they don't need "special edition" of their Quran, because EACH AND EVERY Quran CLEARLY STATED that the DEVIL they are worshiping, the so-called "Allah", has prepared for them 49 VIRGINS in their "heaven" to be "enjoyed" (you use your own imagination on how to "enjoy the virgins") so long as that individual sacrifies him/herself in the name of Allah.

In other words, the DEVIL is spreading his power over the world, by promising to its followers, the Moslems, that doing ANYTHING in the name of "Allah", including killing babies, WILL BE WELCOMED AND ENCOURAGED, and as a reward, the DEVIL will prepare 49 virgins for that fella to enjoy.

Moslems are EVIL WORSHIPPERS. They worship the DEVIL, the so-called "Allah".

No matter how those Moslems want to deny it, the "Allah" they worship is THE DEVIL.

No matter what terrible things the Christians have done, at least, Jesus Christ did NOT kill anyone in his lifetime. Instead, Jesus spread the message of love.

Not so for the Moslems. Their "prophet" spread the message of BLOOD, HATREDS, MURDER.

The first anniversary of September 11 is just 3 weeks away. We MUST NOT forget what the Moslems have done to us.

We must be vigilant ! We must know that the Moslems' "Allah" is THE DEVIL, and DEVIL will not stop at just bringing down the WTC. The final aim of THE DEVIL is to bring down the WHOLE WORLD, and that is what we are witnessing - the Moslems are creating HAVOC in the whole world.

From India to Sudan to USA to Indonesia to USA to Italy, Moslems everywhere are plotting violence against all the non-Moslems.

Pope John Paul II was nearly assassinated years ago, by a Moslem. Now, another Moslem has gone online, in Poland, claiming that he is going to kill the Pope.

One day if we don't get rid of these menace of human kind, our world will never get any peace.

Yes, true. Jesus Christ asked us to love our enemies, but if our enemies listen to THE DEVIL, and they will NOT STOP until they kill us all, please tell me how can I "love" that kind of enemy if all they want is to kill me ?

A basic question

[Anonymous Coward]

-This might seem trivial, but I have a basic question. Exactly WHAT hardware and software do you use for the first connection to the net? I see the t-1, "upstream provider", etc, but I need more basic info. Like what's the first software/hardware does an ISP need in general, not past the isp to the customers, that is documented well, it's the point right exactly "there", the actual "internet" connection I am confuseth on. I just don't get it yet. Say I get a "t-1" to my place. OK, I fork out a grand, now I got a big ole wire hanging there in the room, swell. How does it hookup, what softwares and machine do you run for the ISP's net connection? thanks in advance

wannabe rural isp guy who doesn't know enough yet but is willing to learn. My expertise is a lot more 'alternative power" for this rural ISP deal, that part I got down, heh.

Re:A basic question

[Carl Oppedahl]

This is in our FAQ. You can see photographs and text descriptions of the equipment at http://www.rric.net/howitworks.htm . The fourth box down shows the TSU (T-1 service unit).

Re:A basic question

[Anonymous Coward]

-thanks for the quick reply, and my apologies for missing it. duh, s-l-o-w rural dialup here, slashdot effect, and I'm a lamer most likely for not seeing it, and etc, etc, etc.

again, thanks!

didn't bother to look at the page?

[Anonymous Coward]

You... didn't bother to actually look at the page before bringing this up did you?

The page is text only, and not a lot of it. Every page throughout the site has been very optimized for low bandwidth usage.

GG "People that don't bother looking at links before commenting on them". (read: ignorant /. users)

Re:didn't bother to look at the page?

[Anonymous Coward]

You didn't check it out yesterday when the whole site got shut down cause of the massive /. readership clicking on the link above (read: gay AC trying to act non-ignorant when he didn't even witness the /.'ing and trying to be all big about it).

Why don't you go soak your head??

Servers, OS, and filesharing

[welshsocialist]

Dear Sir:

I am wondering since the area you serve is pretty large, how do you store the servers? Also, what OS do you use?

There have been stories of broadband ISPs blocking filesharing via gnutella or a Napster client. Do you support this idea?

Doing it again what would be different

[Anonymous Coward]

If you were starting from scratch and doing it all over again in your exact same situation, is there anything you would do dramatically differently?

Setting up a coop

[adaxa]

What is the procedure to set up a coop? Is it the same from state to state? As you are an attorney did you do all of the paperwork yourself? What are the advantages and disadvantages of a coop over the other forms of organization?