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On Balancing Career & College...
An anonymous reader asks: "Hi folks. Some advice please - I've been in university twice already and quit both times - the first due to lack of interest in the course and the second a combination of lack of interest and work pressures. The second time round, I started a tech company and it's now three years old and doing OK. I am now seriously thinking about going back to Uni to get a degree (for real this time ;-). Is anyone out there successfully juggling running a company and studying at the same time? How do you juggle the two without hampering either due to lack of the right amount of attention?"
No one I've talked to that's gotten their degree after they've gotten their career started has regretted it.
Always going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse.
It all depends on how much time your business needs. However if you can't fit in a large ammount of time for the course then there's always distance learning for example Open University it all depends what you wish to study. Or if you're only in it for the social life.
I am in a similar boat. I work 40 hours a week at night, and go to school during the day. I also like to go out once in a while, and I have a full time girlfriend.
First if you are with someone, they are going to need to understand that school and work are going to have to come pretty close to first. What this means is, you might not be able to be there all the time. (If they love you, they'll understand).
Find a mix of classes that work for you. Obviously if you are going for computer science you don't want to take 5 upper level computer science classes in the same semester. Take 1 and take a few ( 2 - 4 ) other general elective classes that you need. This should get you through the fall and spring, while knocking out your gen-ed requirements.
Then continue on with school throw the summer. This time take 2 computer science classes.
A schedule like this should get your through, while still allowing you a wee little bit of free time.
Keep in mind that you are going to live a very very structured life for the next few years as you work towards your degree. Sleep will become something you value, because you won't be able to do it as much as you'd like. Make sure you get 1 day off a week, or every 2 weeks. This is important, because it keeps you sane and the g/f happy.
Just my thoughts, and what works for me.
I've been working full time and studying for the last three years. I was intially full-time study and work for two years. My relationship with my GF died as a result tho. I took a year off study the following year and now have a deal with my employer to work 4 days a week on full salary, allowing one day a week to study part-time. The flipside of this is that i owe them i year of work after i finish study next year.
It is hard work but i enjoy it. I am studying multimedia and think its great!
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I refuse to have a sig... dammit!
Never give up sleep time for study time. During sleep your mind makes the transfer to long term memory. If you are not sleeping 7 hours, you might as well not study at all that day.
And get a good outside accountant. Nothing will go wrong with your business that you cannot fix by delegating, except your in house accountant stealing from you.
So, study, sleep, delegate and don't let the mice play while you are away.
If voting were effective, it would be illegal by now.
My advice is to find somewhere that really caters for people who are working as well as studying. Anywhere thats overly tough on deadlines is not going to work out for you. No matter how dedicated you are emergencies are going to crop up from time to time , and your livelihood is always going to win out over your studies. I started a mathematics degree with the Open University (Correspondance course with a good rep) this year, but i missed to many deadlines when the company i worked for went into liquidation, so I've given up for this year and am going to start from scratch next year. it was tough going , but if it had'nt been for the liquidation it would have been manageable. Maybe theres a similar flexible correspondance course that covers your area (as far as i know the open university covers just about everywhere see www.open.ac.uk)
"In Xanadu did Kubla Khan a stately pleasure dome decree"
I assume this troll was trying to be funny.
But 10/hr? Shit, in this economy I would happily take it. 2 years ago I would not believe I would say anything like this. But today sadly thats the reality. Oh and I bet a true paper MCSE certification with no other skills is not worth 10/hr. They are with minimium wage.
Well off to bed so I can start my 7/hr job at the bookstore. grrr
http://saveie6.com/
Do a few classes a term.
The rule of thumb is 2 hours coursework for every hour in class. So figure out how much time you want to spend a week, and do those many hours/3 until you graduate.
Focus on courses you really care about -- I'm much happier now that I've left CE for political Sciene and History. I'd do this stuff anyway, now I get credit for it.
You should realize that one Liberal Arts degree is as good as another, if your passion is something that is technically useless (Philosophy, Art history) you should major in that. You'll do well, and nobody really cares what the words on the degree are.
You may be able to save time by taking courses you already know -- if your business ws web design you might want to take a course on PERL. If you already know it you'll do well without effort; and if you don't you'll be doing training you should do anyway.
In short, you should focus on the shit you'd do even if you weren't in school. I read about politics for fun, so I do PoliSci. I don't do CompSci because I've never gotten around to reading any of my dozen or so programming books. You should also manage your time wisely -- but you have a business so tyou know about that.
It sounds like this guy found out its much more rewarding to work than to go to school. And doing both just plain sucks. There is no balance -- you pick one and do it seriously. Or you do your 40-50 hours a week at work and take a single class. Yeah, it takes forever, I went to school with a guy who spent about 10 yrs getting his BS doing just that.
I tried to balance school and work for a couple years, it didn't work. It hurt me in school and I was over stressed at work from my school demands. I finished college and quit working to do it.
Your mileage may vary.
...and it is defined as being able to clearly remember your goal at all times. Paper chasing has it's merits...such as a higher salary than someone who didn't finish the chase.
Without it, you are doomed to a life as a semi-pro.
Pick something and stay with it. (haven't we been around this tree once already this year?)
1. Be very clear on why you are going (back) to university.
2. Where do you think you are going to get the time to stay on top of your profession while also studying?
3. Have you spoken with the professors who will be teaching the courses you would be taking? Do you already know more than they do about business and technology? If so, what do you expect to learn from them?
4. Assuming you are currently on the bleeding edge of some technical specialties, expect to be obsolete when you graduate.
5. Don't assume there will be a job waiting for you when you graduate.
6. Don't assume your current customers will still be in business when you graduate.
7. Don't assume your current business will be viable when you graduate.
...if you are in the u.k. then you'll probably not have that many hours...because over here we specialise in one subject. I did AI & CS and had about 20 or so hours most weeks (along with other work).
Now here's the fun part...I ran my own company too! (As well as dj'ing both over here in the U.K. and in Brussels, Belgium) It IS possible, it just requires that you have a timetable and STICK to it.
The worst thing you can do is mix up your social time (and remember university IS about meeting new people) and your work time. Have a set time for uni work, for work work and for play (all work and no play...etc.).
It's possible...just make sure that you give university the same attention that you do your company and socialising and you should be fine.
Good Luck! It's hard but rewarding.
I am NaN
I went to University in order to get a good job. Now I have one, I dream of running my own company. You have your own company which by your admission is doing OK. Ask yourself why it is you really want to go back to school for a third time. You are older and have a business to run now. What could a degree change in your situation? I could understand if you were in a job and a degree could help your career prospects, but here that does not appear to be the case.
You need to do some soul searching. Don't get caught up in intellectual snobbery where you (or other people make you) think that getting a degree is somehow going to change you as a person or change the way people look at you. Don't be ashamed if people working for you have better qualifications that you do. The bottom line is that they are working for you, not you for them!
I think the current western trend to work hard, always biting into your free time, is the wrong way to live. That's just my opinion. If you think you can run a company and go to school and still have a fulfilled life (family, home, and love is what it's really all about, not your salary) then you go ahead. I will be the first to congratulate you if you succeed. But perhaps now the thing to think about is why you feel you need a degree if you are already running your own company. Strengthen your character and your interpersonal relationships, and take some professional qualifications / courses related to your line of work if you want, but why torture yourself about going back to school?
Also, bear in mind that a lot of responses here so far are probably from college students. They think (and they are right, from their perspective right now) that school is the best thing in the world. But school is not about getting a degree, it's about getting independance and working out a number of work ethic structures, logical thought processes, prioritisations, etc. The degree is just part of the process, and the better a degree you get is due to how well you organise, communicate, and learn (in an abstract sense) to use tools at your disposal.
So if you really feel you need a degree for your own self esteem, then go for it. But don't do it to the detriment of everything else, because you may find that if you ever get the degree, that your life does not change significantly. Anyone who thinks they are better than you just because they have a degree and you don't is clearly wrong, but you may not be old enough (or they may not be) to realise it. Perhaps something else is really at the root of your problems, and you need to search your heart to find out what your life priorities really are.
Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
you've quit twice allready, now your looking for a per talk about going back. I'd be willing to take a bed that you won't finish. Why are you going back? What is it going to get you?
I'm in the same boat you are, EXCEPT I'm getting my graduate degree I LIKE school. I suspect you don't and staying will be a pain for you, and unless the rewards are VERY great your going to leave again.
it's strange that I do a academic counseling here. :)
:)
:)
First of all in view of your achievement you don't need a bachelor degree. All you need is an MBA(or EMBA depends on how good your business is). Some colleges require you to get a bachelor degree first, but some don't. Even if you aren't interested in this subject you might need it later - you need some sort of qualification when you are dealing with venture captalists, a bachelor degree might not be enough.
If you wanna learn things in a particular area you can go for some professional qualifcaitons in Laws, Finance and Account, etc.. If you've no preference at the moment you can consider Actuaries, which covers wide range of subjects and lead to profession qualifications(assoicate, fellowship, etc.). Even if you drop out of it in the middle, you can switch to CFA.
In order to avoid being mod off-topic, I covers some professional qualifications you can consider in IT: Java programmer/developer/architect, CISSP, CCIE, RHCE, etc. Avoid MCS* - no reason at all, just my personal preference.
I did the first year courses of math+C.S. degree at the open university, while serving in the army at the time.
the nature of my army-service (artillery, which is like a semi-combat position) did not allow for regular schedule, so I needed to study with a flexible schedule, and study mostly by myself (which I like).
I found the courses in the OU clear, instructory and very well-intented (much more so than most of the profs I had to deal with later).
I propose to anyone which works, doesn't have a degree and considers it:
1) do it. you will benefit, period.
2) for the working person, or the young mother (very much a working person...) for which a flexible schedule is the best, the OU is the best option. it is actually designed for people with other constraints.
BTW, I am currently not affiliated with the O.U. in any way.
Working for necessity's mother.
Question why you need to go to University if you're already becoming successful. Taking your eye of the ball can be fatal to the operation of your company.
Secondly in the UK there are Open University courses which allow you to get a degree at home - You do about 90% of the work at home and attend the actual university for some workshop type courses - I'll be very surprised if there isn't an equivalent in the US (or wherever you live)
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
I just read books on what I want to learn and leave it at that.
...), and you will need to look for a job ? finding a job is definately easier with a degree. Will your children be any less hungry then because you are fulfiled today ?
That's the GOOD thing about a degree, it makes you learn some important stuff you did not want to learn. It also makes you solve problems, not just read the books for pleasure. Both are a good thing (TM).
I have nothing, along those lines, to prove to myself. I have a very successful software company and quite fulfilled.
But a degree is, in career terms, like having an insurance. What will happen if your company will fail (shit DOES happen
Working for necessity's mother.
From what you said, lack of interest is what keeps coming up. I'm guessing that this is either lack of interest in the subject matter, or that the quality of education you're getting is insufficient to hold your attention. Either way, I think you're going to be a lot better off if you address either of those first. I'm in your position, and what I'm finding is that the classes I'm taking now (as opposed to then) have real-world applicability, and so I'm a lot more motivated and excited by the material. I can tell what is more likely to be useful to me and what isn't, and I can ask questions based on what I've seen and what I want to do in the future. If this isn't happening for you, perhaps that's the real problem to fix...
For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
I got my whole bachelor's working during the day and going to school at least four nights a week until 10 p.m. plus odd weekends (and sometimes having to drive 70 miles for the classes).
It can be done, just set that diploma as your goal and sort of coast along in the work -- doing your work, but not the "I'm working for a promotion or to expand the business" kind of work.
I do the hiring of IT people for my company and we laugh at your silly college degrees. It's experience that counts, not how many years you spent in uni sucking up beer and chasing girls. Most of the uni grads we have seen are crap, unskilled and overconfident. I have a team of 18 programmers and the only uni grad is the lowest ranked programmer on the team. It will be another 12-24 months before we can get him trained to a state where he can start to really make contributions to the team. We will be training him with a combination of mentoring, real world projects and extra study - by the end of which he will be a kick butt programmer because (and here's the crucial bit) we hired him because he had great *attitude*.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
Seriously man,
If you got the oppertunity to go back, take it. What is the nature of your business, do you have any staff you can trust to run things?
See, right now, me and all my chums are out of work, and it's been that way for a while (and not looking much better) I was a sysadmin for 7 years and was making 86k at my last sysadmin job without a degree. It was dot com times man!
The one universal thread between me and my other jobless cohorts is the lack of education. Your situation might have been different, but I chose the career path over school, as did many of my friends, but now we're beggin our families to help us out.. It's not industrious self reliance.
And damn those people with degree's that got the burger flipping jobs over us here in silicon valley. I'd take ANY job right now, I applied to the orchard supplies and the Mc Donalds, my wife doubled up, filled out applications, and applied again and STILL NO response.
It's hard as hell out there, i'm in a position where if I just had a burger flipping job, I could go back to school. Dammit.
--toq
Atleast here, the fact that universites for example get certain amount of government money per graduated student, helps the discussion. The situation in US might completely different - but still: convince a professor about the fact that you learn by doing. Ofcourse you need to (and you should, it's good for you!) complete some theoretical studies as well - but theoretical studies can be interesting as well, if you know it benefits your business. As result, you might see that you can complete your studies by 60% work and 40% extra, for example.
I had to drop out because a) I had no financial help from family and b) the University's accounting system was so fucked up is sent my loan checks back because I was not enrolled. Why was I not enrolled? I was in non-payment. Why was I in non-payment? Because the University kept sending my loan checks back. To get the bill collectors off my back I wound up getting a real job and taking a personal loan.
So here I am, most of the way there, and only a mountain of debt to show for it.
Do you REALLY want to run up extra bills? Do you REALLY want the equivilent of a mortgage on your brain? You had the god given sense to get out before it got too expensive.
Lets face it, a degree is no more than a sheet of paper the gets you in the door. You are the guy on the other side of the door already. Aside from pride, what are you intending to achieve?
Also note that colleges are bursting at the seams with echo boomers at the moment. Prices are sky high because there are literally boatloads of people chasing paper right now.
As for me, my present employer has tuition reimbursement. I am taking them up on it because a) my original University is 10 blocks away from my apartment (and 11 blocks away from my Office), and b) in an education setting a lack of a degree is keeping me out if certain positions, like Director. I have definite measureable goals to be reached by obtaining a degree, the means to do it, and the support of my Wife and Boss.
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
in a down economy, degrees can be a liability when they come round looking to axe expensive employees.
In the REAL WORLD, IT experience is difficult to *measure*.
In the REAL WORLD, A Cisco or MCSE etc certification gives more bang for the buck than any possible college degree.
In my experience, once you reach a certain experience level, having the degree doesn't add to your salary.
So is being experienced a liablilty? Hell yes. I can't even get a JR sysadmin job right now because I'm "Over-qualified"
"We are not tolerant people. We prefer drastically effective solutions"
Don't let anyone fool you. If you're rich and miserable you'll still be as unhappy as poor and miserable.
In my case, I started with computers when I was in high school and it seemed like a natural choice for college. I finished an associates degree and started working. 7 years of professional programming have taught me one thing. I hate computers. Or at least programming them. I thought long and hard and finally realized my true love is aircraft and space craft. I'm going to school part time (7 credit hours this semester) for an aerospace engineering degree while at the same time working full time as a programmer. (Oh and I'm married.)
First, decide what it is you want most to achieve happiness. Don't even start school until you decide that. Once you have, make achieving that goal your priority. Remember, we're talking about happiness here. If it means sacrificing some work here and there, it will probably be worth it in the long run.
Planetes
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promo Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitl
I suppose I'm in a similar situation. I'm at the tail end of my third university attempt in the past five years, and while this one has been a bit more successful than the others, I'm pretty certain I'll be leaving school at the end of this term.
... but it's expensive, often boring, and too far removed from all the other pies I've got my fingers in. I don't want to abandon it all together, but I'm certain I don't want to make it my singular focus for the next few years.
... go to school. If you're enjoying your work, but you really want to go to school, do both, part time.
I'm impatient. While I've taken some classes that are absolutely thrilling, for the most part I'm unimpressed with life as a full time student. In the last five years, I've managed to start a few successful businesses, I've done a lot of traveling, and have had generally free reign to pursue my interests and make something of them. I've been able to support myself quite well in nearly all of my ventures.
I enjoy working. I enjoy developing business plans. I enjoy making real money. I enjoy the risk of failure. I like the real world interaction, the respect, and the challenge of dealing with things that come up in "real life."
Granted, for a lot of people, the academic world is real life. For me, it's just another interesting project
What do I think you should do? If you're enjoying your work, stick with it, and make the most of it. Don't pay attention to the naysayers and their "what if the economy fails, how will you find another job, blah blah blah." If things go wrong and you can't find another job, go to school. If you're looking for something else to do
If you're in a good situation now, there's no reason to leave it, unless you think you could do better in another situation. Only you can know what your true priorities are, and given the amount of success you say you've had, I say that you can successfully trust your instincts with this decision.
You're most likely a younger guy like myself. Early twenties? Late teens? You've got plenty of years to "get your life together" before you start thinking about supporting a family and what-have-you. It's better to take the risks now, when you can afford to make a few bad decisions, than attempt to "do the right thing" out of some sense of obligation or guilt -- that's a sure fire way to end up burnt out and miserable.
It sounds cheesy, but I say follow your heart: There are tons of successful people with and without degrees, and what seems to count most is your passion and commitment to whatever it is that you find the most fulfilling.
Enough of my rambling. Best of luck to ya!
You go to college at nite to night classes. You get your degree much slower but it makes you available for your business during the day.
The other drawback is that you now have ZERO life. and if you have a family you will almost never see them, and/or you will lose them. The nightly bar scene is no longer an option excepto for maybe (if you're lucky) once a month.
Oh, and your burn rate just tripled.
If you can take the piled on pressure then go for it... Me, I won't. I have a 10 year old daughter and spending time with her is more important than anything else on this planet, including work, school, whatever.. But that's how my priorities are arranged.... Look at your priorities and see if school can fit in there.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Only the ignorant says that knowledge is irrelevant or obsolete. That was never true, even though ignorants has said it for centuries. Knowledge is not a burden to carry, and there are always domains where it is applicable. Without the knowledge, you will of course not see the applications, hence you should not judge its usefulness without it.
The next step is to fear knowledge.
With fear for knowledge comes a society where people burn books in public.
Reality bites, go take a history class.
If this works for you, then fine. However there are a lot of organisations out there where, if you don't have a degree, you won't even get a first interview.
A degree shows a lot more than just drinking beer and chasing girls.
It shows (in the UK anyway) the ability to live away from home, work to strict timelines, fend for yourself, learn information that wasn't interesting to you, cope in unfamilar surroundings and, after all that, discipline yourself so that, in spite of the distractions, you're able to study and come out with a good degree.
To many people, myself included, a degree shows a lot more about a person than just they got a IIi in Computer Science.
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
This is what I thought.
Unfortunately, after two years doing Computer Science, it didn't turn out like that; the most expensive book I was expected to buy was "Learning to Program in Visual Basic 5"; ok, so it's a book I wouldn't have bought myself, but it certainly didn't teach me anything.
C: two semesters of writing tools to read in tsv's and calculate averages from the values, and another semester doing a RPN calculator. No look at libraries, no dynamic allocation, very little on pointers -- the second semester was effectively a clone of the first, only we were "allowed" to use * and &.
Java: we did a bit of UML, and proceeded to use it to develop a Counter class with methods increment(), decrement(), reset() and getValue(). We then got some C&P code to plug a GUI into it.
Web development: we did some old-sk00l tag-soup, and got told to write our own site using frames. Nobody came out of it with the slightest clue that HTML was actually specified anywhere or followed any significant rules.
Databases: The week before, I'd designed a (normalised) database with over 20 tables. It took me a few hours. The semester involved creating a database from a pre-written specification which had about four.
Assembler: Something I'd never normally look at, but through the semester we never got past a few loops and conditionals.
I did enjoy a couple of the modules (the math ones, and B Notation of all things, even assm was quite fun when we actually moved on), but most of it was slow, slow, slow and ultra basic. Even my A-level computing went into more detail.
Needless to say, I was on anti-depressants by the time I dropped out
I worked in some way or another for most of my time at uni, but for the last two years I was also director of an IT consultancy. To be fair I was quite slack about the whole thing, but I found that balancing the two was extremely draining, I'd get home after a day of work/study and have to do more work/study to keep up to date. It got particularly bad as finals and projects approached.
If you can avoid it, I would. University is just too much fun and too useful to waste time you could be spending studying or having fun with friends.
Chris "Ng" Jones
cmsj@tenshu.net
www.tenshu.net
I went to the university once, started working as a software developer and I quit school. Now I'm going back to school but doing it all through correspondence work. It's all on my own time, on my own schedule. I am enrolled at The American College of Computer and Information Sciences. Also the University of Phoenix does online degrees too as far as I know. ACCIS is fairly easy but you have to keep on doing it. It's easy to stop when you don't have due dates for anything. Right now I'm in 3 classes and you only have to turn in 1 assignment from any of your classes every 2 months minimum. Obviously you'll want to turn in more than that.... else computers will be obsolete when you graduate. :)
Anyhow... might want to browse the websites. Can't hurt to poke around. Feel free to e-mail me personally if you want to know more about it (or anybody can e-mail me if they want).
Unless you are an extreme workhorse, I suggest a good balance of hours. I find that if you spend more than 24 hours focused on your job then your marks will suffer. But maybe you just want to skim by.
I'm a writer, a poet, a genius, I know it. I don't buy software, I grow it.
And since you are your own boss, you should be cool to yourself.
I am a graduate student in cultural geogaphy, which means that my advisors and classmates care two shits about my work. If I complain that school is interfering with my job, I get stony looks from the professors and told to quit. Luckily, since I work in IT at the University where I study, I can just pop out of the office for class and seminars. How can I do this? My boss is cool enough to allow it. If you can find a situation that will allow such an arrangement, then go for it. My boss is allowing me the whole summer off (w/o pay, of course) to do my fieldwork overseas. I do consider myself lucky? Yes. But then again, you make your luck. Being good at what I do helps.
With regard to your situation, since you are your own boss, cut yourself some breaks. You have the unique luxury to do so.
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
I'm confused. Your school seems to be offering courses on the tools of CS rather than the philosophies and theories of CS. Tools are skills to acquire in your spare time; theories are concepts to discuss and evolve, to apply through those tools.
Maybe you should consider returning to school, but reading a different subject: math, electrical engineering, physics, software engineering (if offered as distinct from the tools curriculum foisted upon you). This may not be a feasible option, depending on how focused your A-levels were. On the other hand, I went from Classical Civilization as an undergraduate to Computer Science as a graduate student, so anything is possible.
My suggestion, I guess, is follow your interests. The "useful" or productive part of university for me was less the classes and the books (although those were important), and more the discussions with my peers and professors. Through that, I learned how to learn, and how to approach complex problems. The tools just sort of arrived based on need.
I hate to say this, but I don't blame you for dropping out, based on your description of your course of study.
Good luck!
Russell
I assume from the fact that you mention A-levels that you're in the UK. (Correct me if I'm wrong...) My experience is that CS taught at UK universities varies greatly. I decided to do maths instead of CS as an undergraduate degree, precisely because I expected to be bored senseless after looking at the syllabuses for several BSc/BA level CS courses at major universities. I've never regretted the decision to take maths instead.
I was, however, lucky enough to do a Diploma in CS at the University of Cambridge once I'd finished my undergrad degree. That was based on the undergrad degree syllabus, missing a few of the practical classes and some of the more advanced final year stuff, and compressed into one extended year. It was a very well rounded presentation, and while I didn't learn that much factually in some of the courses, it did open my eyes to several areas I'd either never have heard of, or never thought much about before (numerical analysis, functional programming and database design, to name a few). I certainly don't regret taking the Diploma either; it proved an excellent opportunity to sharpen up the skills I already had, and filled in a few gaps I hadn't realised I had.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Nah, on-line degrees are old hat. I get an e-mail every couple of days offering me an MSc from a "recognised, on-line institution offering quality degrees and guaranteed confirmation of your resume claims"!
(Sorry, couldn't resist...)
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Since you already have a successful career, may I suggest that you study something that you like to learn more about rather than just go for a degree is CS?
Maybe take a bunch of liberal arts courses (music, theater, arts, theory, history, economics, political science, a foriegn language) and see if any of those agree with you.
I'll point to myself as an example: I write software for a HMO in Boston, but my undergrad degree is in Japanese Poltitical Science (my url above does read polsci after all). Why? Because I wanted to learn other things besides computers, and this gave me a well rounded education which helps me out with the ultimate goal: problem solving.
My master degree will be in CS when I bother to finish it.
III.IIVIVIXIIVIVIIIVVIIIIXVIIIXIIIIIIIIVIIIIVVIII
I went through the school the "normal" way. I went to high school then to college and now I am working. I did work 20-30hrs/week while in college and as a consequence I had very little social life(outside class that is) while there, but to me that was ok. I wish I could have just kept going and got a masters in cs, but I needed the money and had to move onto making some ;) Now, I am trying to make and save enough money so that I can go back to school and work part time.
Some questions I think you should ask yourself is why do you want to go back to school? If you are running your own business successfully will getting more schooling help? Perhaps you can concentrate on growing your business to the point where you can sell it or have enough free time to go back to school.
Just remember that while in school you only get out what you put in. The more time that you can put into learning by reading, and conversing with other students/teachers the more enjoyable experience you will have.
I am with the don't do it crowd. The world is so caught up in the degree mind set. What they really should be concentrating on is Knowledge. Beleieve me I work with plenty of Morons who have degrees. In the Computer field there is practically nothing that degree oriented schools can teach you that a good O'reilly, Sams, Wrox, etc... book can't and usually the teach yourself method is much quicker and comprehensive since its almost all real world use as you learn it. If we could the world to assign less value to degrees we would probably have more competent people in many computer field job roles. The price of admission would be to display competence...really the technonly field should be more like plumbing, and electrical work. Apprenticeships and such....
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
Unfortunately, after two years doing Computer Science, it didn't turn out like that; the most expensive book I was expected to buy was "Learning to Program in Visual Basic 5"
...)
where did you study, mickey mouse university ?
I'm not implying you're lame, I definately say the place where you studied is (you say that yourself)
why? because all your examples actually have very little to do with C.S., they are all related to implementation stuff. Such a study program teaches all the nonsense, while neglecting the essence.
I've studied C.S.+MATH at the open university and at TAU, while TAU sure had it's fair share of mickey-mouse courses, many courses at both universities were both deep (most of the math courses, the "hardcore CS" ones, some advanced C.S.) and beneficial to my problem-solving skills. All in all I had to read just 2-3 language-related books, and it was done as a small side-effect of study.
(I still don't know VB, BTW, I'm sure I'll be able to pick it up if I need to, though, which is the important thing
so yes, you should pick and choose the university, but having picked the right one, I still think a degree is the best way to study for most people.
Oh, and BTW, just one thing: do NOT take courses just for good grades (unless you're about to fail) . That is the most common error students make, and all the experienced professionals I talked with after graduation said that in hind-sight this is a grave error they did (or not).
Treat your studies (and yourself) with respect, choose the most interesting and deep courses, and it will benefit your career much more than raising your average grade a few points.
Working for necessity's mother.
>In the REAL WORLD, IT experience is difficult to
>*measure*.
Definitely.
>In the REAL WORLD, A Cisco or MCSE etc
>certification gives more bang for the buck than any
>possible college degree.
I disagree.
I can't speak to the Cisco certs, but I speak from personal experience when I say the MCSE is crap.
Quick! What's the maximum allowed length of a thicknet ethernet cable??!?!?!?!?!?
Clover Kicker, BCS, CNE, MCSE
Not sure where you live, but if you are in western Europe, you can always sign up with the Open University.
:)
I am getting a bachelors degree in computer and mathematical science myself right now, while working for a tech company as a software engineer. This is working out pretty well, although I am only studying half time.
I think it would have been very difficult for me to do it any other way. I mean, I don't think I could have handled full time uni and work at the same time. One of my co-workers tried to do it, and after 1,5 years he quit. Basically, he just couldn't keep it up and in the end he choose uni over work.
My advice to you, try to study on distance, and don't throw yourself at it too hard. I mean, start by studying half time. If it goes well, then try full time. Good luck
That is usually the exception to the rule, especially when dealing with IT industry. To many people assume that because in IT you can do that, other professions are the same way.
Do you think anyone is going to hire you if you have never taking an accounting course, that just some experience running a lemonade stand is going to count? How about management, experience counts alot but a degree is often needed to get your foot in the door in the first place, noone is going to consider you for management just because, they need something to back their decision up.
Face it, IT is alot like manual labor, it is just putting your nose to the grindstone and just work. Someone willing to put in the time can make something of themselves, especially a smart person, but they are not going to turn into the CEO of a big company, you need that degree
No back on the subject at hand, if you really are looking to get a degree, ask yourself why, you have been to school twice and what ever reasons you had for going to school then were not enough to keep you there. You really need to understand why your going to school instead of is it possible. If you have a good enough reason, you can make it work
Forget the University of Phoenix... however, there are some good colleges offering distance education via the internet. A good one is Southern New Hampshire University ... www.snhu.edu.
There are many advantages to internet based distance education... the big one being that you can attend your classes when your schedule allows. Being an entrepreneur, I don't think you'll have a problem with the self dicipline required for such a task.
Take 2, maybe 3 courses per term and it makes a nice balance between career, living, and eventually getting your degree.
Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
The most brilliant person that I knew in college (and there were a lot of brilliant people there) was my freshman roommate. He would go to bed at 1 pm and wake up at 6 am everyday. In the meantime I was going to bed whenever I felt like it an waking up when I could/had to.
Lasers Controlled Games!
Personally, I work for a university, so I get to take classes, and they're rather flexible about my taking classes in the middle of the day, so long as it doesn't affect a production service.
... but hey, if you find out at the beginning, you can always drop the class, and not have to pay the full price, normally.
First off, remember that your schedule is going to have to follow a school schedule. I can't burn my comp/vacation time without having to consider how it affects my classwork. I can't take it over the summer, as that's when our crunch time for changing out systems is. As you're not working for a university, the summer issue shouldn't be as bad for you.
Anyway, back to the point -- go and talk to people from the college(s) you're interested in. Some might let you test out of classes (for a fee), and some are more understanding than others when you have to miss a class. Some schools specifically cater to what they call 'adult education'. Look for the ones with a good variety of night classes, if nothing else.
Talk to your professors at the beginning of the semester, and let them know what your situation is. Even just a little 'I might have to run in the middle of the class' is nice warning to give them. Some professors will be understanding, and well, others are complete pricks
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
Tons, and I would Lump the Certs right in with the degree's...
I know lots of paper MCSE's who look at an actual NT/2000 Box and don't even know where to begin if the thing is down and in need of recovery....
Its really sad....
Again its real world, applied knowledge that should count, and the skill to use it that should matter....
Disclaimer: I do hold several Certs Including MCSE4/2000. I achived these for two reasons, I already knew what I was doing and my employeer paid for exams(they made it a goal on my goals sheet) as well as cut me a $100 check for each exam I passed, and a $750 bonus for achiving the final certs.
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
I worked ~20 hours a week and went to school full time. I discovered that I could not take more than 13 credits a quarter without failing classes. They kept pushing me to tkae that many hours, but I couldn't do it. My GPA suffered as a result. Do not let them push you.
You already have a good job, so don't rush college. (I was working fast food, so I needed to push). Take one class at a time, and don't worry about the degree taking 15 years to complete. Spend your time in the one class you do take wisely. Study hard, get As. You can get by on a C, but people judge you based on your GPA once you have the degree, and mine was not where it should have been.
How much do you need to work you buisness? It is really easy for someone in school to neglect their work when they one the company. Don't fall for that trap, you could find yourself without a degree and money when your buiseness failed. Sure you can bring it back, but that means leaving school. On the other hand, don't be afraid to cut your buisness back a little to give school more time.
I'm currently working on my MBA. I have a full-time job, though I try to keep it at a straight 40 hours a week; I'm sure that running a 3 year old business probably requires more than that, though.
On the other hand, I have a wife and two small children. Any time outside of work that I'm spending on school I'm spending away from the kids, which is very hard.
I'm in an evening degree program, and I take two classes a semester (sometimes one, depending on the difficulty level). There are a lot of evening programs out there, even for the undergrad level. Some universities also offer accelerated executive programs, where you go to all-day Saturday classes instead of evenings; I imagine that that's more popular at the graduate level, though, as most executives would have undergrad degrees.
I'll be wrapping up in another couple of semesters. How is the business degree going to merge with my tech background? That's a question left to be answered (I aspire to be a tech entrepreneur). However, the experience of the program has been tremendous, and it's been worth the effort and expense for the knowledge I've gleaned. Has it been tough? Very. Has it been long? Yes. But, you just have to make yourself into the kind of person who sets long-term goals and keeps focused on those. Running your own business, it's very easy to start thinking only short-term. But if you can't answer the question of who that degree is going to help you become, and in a way that's meaningful to you, then you have no motivating factor to focus on.
What is your motivation for doing this? Make more money? Glean more knowledge? Keeping up with the former high school chums? Feeling a sense of inadequacy when you hire somebody who has more degrees than a protractor? Expanding your business? Changing careers? I'm not saying that I know what your motivation is, but if it's something shallow and reactionary, then yeah, there's no way that that will carry you through. You need to look at how this is going to mold you into the person you want to become and how it will benefit you long term.
And you need to make it clear to everyone who places demands on your time that you are committed to this, so if you can't go grab a brew or stay an extra hour at work, that's why.
No one I've talked to that's gotten their degree after they've gotten their career started has regretted it.
And that includes Steven Spielberg
But you have to get it done. Believe me, Even if you've run your own business or are a consultant. If you interview (as an employee not a contractor) gets to the point where they ask about your education and they found you havent completed 'any' higher education it will make all you experience appear less signifigant (they'll think you're lying and exaggerating). I'm finishing a BS in computer engineering, taking 3 classes during the day and working 20-25 hours a week as a programmer (pays well and low stress). There are no night schools for this curriculum in this part of the state so I'm stuck going to school with kiddies 6 years younger than me (annoying!).
:-). I never attended class but the professors where available to answer questions.
:-). Sure it's a comprimise but the consequences of not getting a degree while you're still young (and still have the motivation to learn) are worse.
:-). Friends, We'll they probably work too though try and get out of the house atleast once or twice a month.
First and foremost you must be disciplined. No fucking off and playing quake for an hour when you come home from work or even watching your favorite TV shows (tape em). School 'is' work, treat it as such and consider your HW and studying as an investment that will make you $$$. If you're running your own business then you should be bright enough to learn on your own. Take a few hours on the weekend to get ahead in the textbooks. If you can learn the books way of doing things and figure out what the author implies you may not even need to go to class. I did Calc 3 and Diff Eq this way. I was cool with the professors so he let me sign up for the courses, take the tests, and I got an A
#2) You shouldn't be working more than 20 hours in a during a school week. If you can't make enough money to support yourself and go to school, move back home to your parents (if possible) or move into the dorms. If you're worried aboutr having to roomate with someone jsut tell em (if you're over 21) that you plan to have beer in your room and because of that, no minors can live with you
#3) Get some SLEEP, Atleast 7 hours. Also learn to eat well and if you lack the time to prepare food that has proper nutrition then use a supplement (like ensure).
#4) Know your professors. They respect working students, especially working adults. The better they know you the more willing they may be to make a comprimise for you or even a favor.
#5) free time and women (or signfigant other). Both are comprimised and secondary to everything mentioned above. Don't have time for a GF?, then learn how to "hook up". College is a meat market for casual sex, It's the only plus I have being an older man but not too old
Finally, I've seen some posts pointing out that you mentioned a "lack of interest" and went on to say because of that you you dont need a degree etc etc. Let me tell you something. I nor any manager who knows what he's doing will not hire someone "who doesnt finish what he started". You can always find people to start a project. Finding someone that can stick with it and finish is a whole lot more valuable. That's what it means to have a 4 year degree.
Peter
www.alphalinux.org
There isn't much advice I can give you other then budget your time, make time for school, make sure your employeer knows and is willing to give you that extra time. And just work your butt off, there is no "easy" way to juggle school and work. You are either going to be workng late, or working early (going to school before or after work) or working or going to school all weekend. Depending on how many courses your are taking and your work scheduale you probably won't have any free time. Just work/school/work/school. I doubt this helps, but it is what got me through.
The next generation of person will support Familial Multithreading (TM). Important family and GF matters will be automatically time-managed to prevent conflicts. Advanced memory management will also prevent those awkward moments when she comes up and says "Do you know what today is?..."
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
University of Teesside
I did try to go for the higher end stuff, but choice was limited, and at least one interesting looking module was canceled entirely due to lack of, um, interest.
I blame the students too; most had absolutely zero clue, and the course catered to their needs. Sigh.
I got my degree this way. I started in day school (like you) but after two years I decided to work during the day and get my degree at night (Drexel U).
For the next five years I went to night school all year round before I ended up with two BS degrees. It can be done but it's a lot of work. Now I'm working on a comp sci master's degree at NC State and holding down a full time job. Sometimes the courses are interesting and occasionaly even fun. However, most of the time it's just a test of your discipline.
I don't regret it for one minute. You'll be busy all the time. You'll spend years knowing that you have assignments due soon. It's a drag. However, getting your degree is critical in this profession. In a decade, it will be odd to find somebody without a degree. Also, with in influx of H1B employees who started with a student visa, you'll find more and more people with advanced degrees.
I was talking to a guy who's father is an Electrical Engineer. When he got into the profession decades ago when a degree was optional. As times passed he knew that he did not qualify for his current job. He knew that if he was laid off he'd be out of luck. Also, his co-workers looked at him a little differently because he didn't have a formal education.
Comp Sci is in the same position now. You can get by without a degree. However, it won't stay that way.
Do it, you need to.
Vanguard
That which does not kill me only makes me whinier
Seriously, AC is right. Do what you have to and get out of there, it's too expensive. Contact some headhunters and start doing a region-wide or even nation-wide job search. No, I don't think you'll pick up 86k again just being a sysadmin (unless you've got serious programming skills), but I don't think that 45-50k is unreasonable for 7 years' experience. Sure beats the 12-14k that McDonalds will pay you, and the cost of living will probably be much cheaper.
The problem, as you stated, is that your area is flooded with overqualified candidates. It's not going to get any better anytime soon. Go someplace where the competition isn't so bad; every city in the US needs sysadmins. Like AC said, set up a 5-7 year plan and start working it. Get that degree so you can go back to Silicon Valley.
That's what I'm doing right now... Talk about balancing work and school!
My Karma was at 49, then they switched to words. All that work for nothing!
Nope. Well, they certainly didn't seem to know this; the languages I talked about were mostly part of larger modules (Java == Object Orientation, Assm == System Architecture, B notation == Formal Systems, etc), but they really did just end up being courses on the basics of the languages.
And plenty produce unmaintainable ugly piles of crap. This is much more down to attitude and experience than education.
I used the same word in my response, 'discipline'. It's not always going to be fun but a degree will be required in a decade or so. All you need to do is look at the other engineering professions and you'll see where our's is headed. Vanguard
That which does not kill me only makes me whinier
This sounds like sane advice -- much better than I thought he'd get.
:-)
I mean, asking for time management advice from people blowing time reading Slashdot?
May we never see th
If you go for an on-line program, make sure it is from a bona-fide accredited university - no degree mills. Also keep in mind that your instructors are used to teaching "regular" courses and dealing with full time students much younger (and more naive than you). They will make unreasonable demands of your time, and many will treat you in the condescending fashion notorious at universities (and distasteful to anyone with actual professional accomplishments)
Real world experience makes understanding the concepts much easier - you may be given some abstract topic and think, "oh yeah, I worked on something like that on project XYZ" while the topic will be entirely unfamiliar to your typical 19 year old with no real work experience.
Last point - if you are running your own company, you will have some time flexibility. If you are an employee, make sure your company buys off on the time commitment. There's nothing like having to drop a class because you employer sends you to Timbuktu a week before final exams.
"dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope"
heh...
...
i did that, graduated last january...
first thing i did with the free time was plan my wedding, a full time proposition in and of itself...
now... hrm... i'm starting to try to figure out what i would do with all this "freetime"... i did the work/school thing for like 4 years, and well... it was tough and i had no time...
i've got a lot more time now... and i'm just getting to teh "what do I want to do" stage...
thinking about music... or art classes... i dunno... something that doesnt involve typing
... hi bingo
That said, I would recommend going back and getting a degree to anyone. Of course, I would be a professional student if I could afford it. If there is any way to horde your money so you don't have to work while going to school, do it. Live on ramen noodles for a year, go to the library and read for entertainment, find a good employee to run your business while you go to school (of course you'll have to watch that carefully), and then just move into a dorm, apply for financial aid/scholarships, and live a real college student life (my wife vetoed that for me... no dorm). Anyway, I wish you the best of luck.
There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity.
Most Universities have no way to support someone who is a full-time employee and a full-time student. They will schedule all the classes during the day when you can't make it.
;)
My wife is currently getting her second BS in Computer and Information Science while she works full-time through the University of Maryland University College. They are a leader in online education, and you can take all your classes for this degree online.
Next semester she's taking Unix Systems Administration, and after that I'm going to give her root and let her admin our servers
Why would you want a degree if you already have a tech career? I went to college and got a degree in the hopes of getting a career, and that has not happened. It seems companies only want experience, which I cannot get. Additionally, if you look at Monster.com or any other job search engine, there are largely senior level jobs available. Why? Why don't people from within the company move up into those senior positions, and if they do, what happens to their entry level position? Is it eliminated, or do they recruit using other means?
I suppose it depends on the area you study, but I would focus on certifications. I've done countless interviews lately and none of them are impressed with my Bachelors degree, but all ask what certifications I have (which is none, as I spent that last 4 years studying liberal arts and other worthless shit to get an MIS degree, and now I don't have any money to take the exams because no one will hire me).
I would imagine a CS or Engineering degree might come in handy. Perhaps accounting, as there always seems to be jobs in accounting. I got a degree in MIS and couldn't get a job to save my soul. Sometimes I think it actually hurts me to have a degree (ie, I'm either underqualified or "overqualified", whatever that means, but never qualified.)
Something to think about: Before I got my Bachelor's degree, I was NEVER turned down for a job. Since I have gotten my degree, I've been turned down for close to a hundred interviews and jobs.
In summary, a Bachelors degree was a lot of work, costed a lot of money and has gotten me NOWHERE. If you must get a degree, don't waste your time on anything less than a CS degree.
what if you make enough money, don't care to make more, and are appalled at the thought of ever setting foot in another place where you pay people to take up your free time with useless shite?
I've always thought of my tech career as just a day job anyway. It's a good-paying day job, and I have no interest in furthering my formal education. One of these days I'll be in business outside of the tech sector and much happier anyway, it's just a matter of straightening out my finances first.
I work full time and I'm completing my second degree part-time. (My first degree was as a full-time student.) Once that is done I intend to obtain a Masters part-time as well. Clearly, I like school.
Last semester I was taking 2 courses part-time, planning my wedding, working 60+ hours a week F/T and house-hunting. It was a crazy schedule to begin with, and then when you add a psycho I had to work with and my parents driving me nuts over the wedding plans and 0 vacation time (saving it up for the honeymoon) and I nearly went insane.
I still got through it, sanity intact, so here's what you need.
Determination and Motivation.
You've said before that you've tried out school and then quit. You have to really want to do this. When everything gets hectic and crazy, the thought of quitting may look appealing. After all, in University, you're paying to work really hard -- at work, it's the other way around. Plus, when your livelihood demands more time then usual, it can be hard to push that aside to do an assignment, or keep up with the reading.
But I really love what I'm studying, and even the required non-major courses (some of which I never thought I'd enjoy) appeal to me, so the idea of quitting school never crossed my mind. (Quitting work, on the other hand...) And because I enjoy it, it's easier for me to make time for school.
Discipline.
So imagine you finish work-work for the day, and you're exhausted, and the last thing you want to do is read a textbook. Will you put it off until the next day? Procrastination is a slippery slope -- when you're tired, it's so easy to put things off, and then suddenly, you're pulling all-nighters. Now for me, all-nighters are usually very productive, but pulling too many of those is increasingly draining as you get older. It's only been 6 years since I was a F/T frosh, and already I can't sustain the same low-sleep schedule that I could then. Now I have to force myself to do things on a regular and sane schedule, get enough sleep, eat properly -- all these things help.
You've been able to start and succeed at your own business, which says that you probably have all of these within you. But the big question for you to answer is -- are you willing to apply the same determination, motivation and discipline to school?
I can spell. I just can't type.
Hire me and you can have one of my degrees:
English
History
Music
Communications
And if you act now you can have one of my certifications:
CNA
CNE
CLP
SUN
This
I know this is a little late, but if you're smart enough, you'll read all these comments for good advice. Many of which are chaff.
First question to ask yourself: Why do you want a degree?
I think the only answer that would seem justifiable is "hot college aged co-eds". If you have a company that is "okay" (and that better mean "making money"), a degree does not help your career.
If however, your company is bleeding cash like a stuck pig, and you are looking for a job, getting your degree seems reasonable. Unfortunately, the time you spend in University is going to further detract from your bleeding company and it is going to go out of business even faster.
So, if you are currently living off the proceeds of your company's revenue, your best career move is to spend your time building your revenue stream. If you build that stream to the point where you can sell the company or "retire", then, by all means, go get that degree, so you can seem smarter in the eyes of others.
If you don't care what others think, screw it. Calculus is not going to help your bottom line. Neither is knowing how to write a compiler.
But I was burned out for years thereafter. Fortunately I'd made enough money that burnout wasn't a problem.
I am surprized that I haven't seen others mention this, but make sure you are getting the right education for you. People learn different, and you may of had a problem with the learning / study methods used at university.
/.er should enjoy is Steven C. McConnell's Top 10 Reading List.
There is a difference between difference schools, state vs. private universities, two and four colleges, polytechs, and distance education vs. correspondence. Research the options, and pick the right one for you.
In this day and age you do not need to attend classes in person to earn a meaniful degree, in UK, the Open University leads the way, and in Canada there is Athabasca University, I am not as familiar with US schools, but there is the University of Phoenix as well as many others.
Define your goal(s) of attending a post-secondary school. Also an idea for your career goals might be useful, but you need specific education goals. Write them down. I said, write them down. This is how you will evaluate schools, programme and course choices.
Is it just to have a degree? Do you want more a fundamential understanding (i.e. theoric) of computing? Do you want business skills? To become a better rounded software engineer? Understand business, so you can grow your own business? Get a MBA? Meet women? For technical training? To earn more money? Continue doing what you already do, or so you can do something new? Certification?
An university degree is suppose to be based upon a theorical understanding, which while being less specific (i.e. more abstract), is more lasting and will not be outdated every 3 years. That is the #1 source of frustration and confusion I see from young computer science students. An university degree is not a career training programme. You get to do the career training in your own time.
Make use of your electives, do not choose courses because you think they will be easy like "Rocks for Jocks" and "Clap for Credit", find introductary courses you will be interested in, and will benefit you either personally or professionally.
Most schools have some means of providing tours of their facilities, especially in the summer. Since this is an investment that will cost approx. $40,000, you should research this investment as being right for you. If possible, arrange a talk with someone from the department that you are looking at majoring in.
Bone up on time management and planning skills, and study skills if you find studying difficult. University is about learning, but unfortunately very little is taught about how best to learn (for you). Read Stephen R. Covey's The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People it will help in setting your priorities, and planning. To help learn about learning, John L. Adams book Conceptual Blockbusting: Care and Feeding of Ideas, and George Polya's How to Solve It.
Practice reading, seriously if you do not do a lot of non-fiction book reading, start doing some more. A list of books any
It's tough. To be honest, when you decided to drop out the first time, you made a mistake. There's a reason people tend to go to school FIRST and only start working AFTER...
I hope you won't end up in school for a decade, like most of my friends who are on that same path right now... My only advice is to sacrifice work for school if you have to (yes, you read that right). You will always have more job opportunities, but if you keep putting off school, you'll simply never reach the goal (i.e., the degree). Besides, having the degree opens up new opportunities for you.
Preach on, brother! When I go to interviews, and they see on my resume over 12 years of experience, they get scared shitless. I've lowered my salary expectations by half. My last couple of jobs paid very high, but I go in now, with no demands. 11 months later, I'm still unemployed.
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
Is anyone out there successfully juggling running a company and studying at the same time? How do you juggle the two without hampering either due to lack of the right amount of attention?
Well, I've done it, and I work with a lot of engineering students that are doing it now. It's not easy. In my case, it nearly cost me my education, my company, and my state of mind. Now I help others avoid running into the same situation.
The problem isn't the hours or the motivation - it's not really a problem of juggling. It's the fact that you've made a commitment to your business, and now you're making a new commitment to your education. When the day comes - and it will come - when you need to pick one or the other, figure out now how you'll choose. A day will come when the business needs you and an exam is coming up. Will you let your staff solve the crisis without your intervention, or will you blow off the exam. Regardless of what you choose, you need to be okay with your choice the next day. These are things to figure out now. If you do this, and stick to it, you'll probably be okay. Juggling implies that you can run and do one, then run and do the other. You *will* hit a day that you can only do one and not the other. Be ready for that day.
If your business doesn't require you to have the degree (that is, you're getting the degree for you) then make the business your first priority. That'll mean that you fail an exam or a class here and there. Be prepared for that, and be okay with that. If you aren't, you'll find yourself overtaxing yourself and the result often is that you fail to meet any of your commitments.
This advise is pretty flexible. Got a family? Care about them? That's your commitment. They win over school as well.
It works in reverse. Got a commitment to Everquest? You have to choose between being a kick-ass Everquester or a person with a degree. At top universities about 15% of students stick to their gaming commitment and get kicked out. Trust me, I do it all the time. We work with students with jobs and families and medical conditions to help them through. The students that refuse to treat their addictions, we cut them loose. Sorry to say, but we don't want to be a $30k/yr gaming club.
Last bit of advice. Don't focus on Princeton or Stanford or MIT. They're not geared towards flexibility. That't not to say it can't be done, but it's much harder. Look for a large, state university that's got a strong continuing education program. You won't get the top school cache (which really doesn't matter anyway) but you'll get a good solid education. They'll be more understanding of your competing commitments, they'll have better course schedules (evening classes, etc.) and they'll have more frequent offerings of courses so you can stay on track.
Good luck.
no kidding, I'm talking to a guy about a 45K/yr NOC operater job. 3rd shift. It's more than triple unemployment, why would I quit when Q4 is starting?? Nobody hires during Q4/Q1.
Time to start ebaying things around the house I guess...
"We are not tolerant people. We prefer drastically effective solutions"
>Look at the salary surveys
I don't think those surveys reflect the current economy. A lot of people can't find work, period.
I know a lot of MCSEs working crappy shifts at call center hell desks. They earn a helluva lot less then $55K.
>you do have to admit that they have a good system
>that can give entry level people a foot in the door.
Entry level people getting their foot in the door don't make big bucks.
The dotcom boom is over.If you want big money, computers aren't the right choice. Go to law school or go to med school.
I know this because I did.
Back in 1990, I started at Georgia Tech. I promptly was asked to leave (well, a year and a half later...) and I was forced to go hunt down a job.
In 1995, I returned to Tech. I learned a number of things along the way:
a) If you don't care as much where you get your degree from, there are respectable schools where you will learn many things that have schedules that are conducive to the working stiff. Tech wasn't one of those schools; it still can be done but it's tougher.
b) Going back to school is interesting: When I left Tech, I had a 1.1 GPA. When I graduated, I had a 2.8, and that's with all the failed classes and such from my first stint averaged in; my GPA across 1995-2001 was over a 3.5. There's a reason for this: Many people who go to college when they're supposed to are doing it for just that reason: They're supposed to. People who return to college are doing it because they want to. You will learn more, you will enjoy it more, and your GPA will show it.
c) Group projects are the bane of the working stiff. I've never worked for a company where if someone was trying to continue their education, that they couldn't arrange something (there are, of course, exceptions to this rule...) since it's easy to know when your classes will be for the next three, four, five months. People just get used to the idea that you're not going to be in the office from noon 'til 2 but that you'll be there earlier or later, and they deal. Group projects require time outside class, and all the traditional students don't want to waste their evenings on them-- which is what you have free. In some cases, you can work around this by simply being your own group-- with a professional work ethic and the knowledge you already have from doing it for real, you can often spend less time doing a group project yourself than collaborating. On the other hand, group work is an essential part of the academic experience and sometimes the whole thing is not an option-- be creative. You may be able to arrange group meetings via the 'net, for example.
d) I found it helpful to be flexible about my career path: while I really liked my job at HP, I found it helpful to take a similar full-time job down at Tech; when your commute to class is "walk downstairs" instead of "drive 30 minutes", many options open up. On the other hand, state universities pay peanuts. Once again, it becomes a question of deciding what's important to you.
e) Sleep is for the weak. (I'd like to sleep for a week...)
It took a while-- I took classes part-time from 1995 to 2001, plus I had about a year's worth of credit from my first attempt at school. But I'm glad I did it. I understand many things that I'd've never picked up "doing it for real". I learned a lot of stuff that's not ever going to be useful in my daily life but is really cool anyhow (I took lots of history courses as electives.) I'm glad I went back.
And you still have time to read Slashdot? Quite amazing. After life without TV, this site has become an addiction to me. The first step is admitting it.
I wonder if I've reached the 2 minutes since previous comment barrier.
What time is it/will be over there? Check with my iPhone app!
If only reality were this simple. While you may be correct that sleep and school are important, the reality is that running a successful business of even mild complexity is VERY demanding of the entrenprenuers time and energy. Delegation IS an important ability in business, but no honest business person will tell you that this is an alternative to being heavily involved in running a business, especially at the earlier stages. Rather, delegation is a supplement, to be used to leverage the entreprenuer's time as the company grows, but not in lieu of it. (Though when a company reaches a critical mass, the workload can lighten with a strong management team, the organization never runs itself) What you fail to realize is that in most successful businesses the entreprenuer is the ONLY person that has the knowledge of all the necessary areas to keep on growing it and is often the only one with the same level of concern. You may delegate to your accountant and various other managers, but there MUST be someone to coordinate it all, to make the tradeoffs, and the critical decisions. Bringing in a single qualified person in is generally not an option, because they don't grow on trees, and because the few that honestly are qualified generally either demand a large amount of equity and/or annual compensation--they simply aren't affordable. The workload presented to most entrepreneuers makes school look like a relatively light burden--it is the very unusual entrepreneur that can afford the time that you speak of.
I am considering a similair boat ride.
:-)
:-)
:-)
Only this time around I am going to be like those nice snotty rich kids in college who can sit and study all day long, and not have to worry like I did about where my next meal, or if I was going to be able to have the money to pay for housing next semester.
You see, the intellectual challenge of attending and getting into college is just one aspect of the puzzle as a whole.
If you really are a smart person, chances are you probably don't come from a rich family that can afford to pay your way while you concentrate on playing the game, of jumping through the hoops to get into grad school....very hard to do if you were like me. (i.e. very poor, and very naive....a combination which made my college experience not very enlightening till I ran out of money...or went to debtors prison.)
I ended up quitting college and starting a company....well, several companies, actually.
After my third one, I have found success, in that I don't have to work now and I am still young...about 36. So...
I am considering, like yourself, storming the gates of academia, and not only using 15 years of experience in building and designing software, but also putting my considerable financial resources and gained free time to CLAIM REVENGE and teach those snotty 18 year olds a thing or too on the grade curve, now that the playing field is level.
Dare I say in my favor.
I however, have a fairly realistic point of view in life about things....which I will suggest you adopt:
First of all, whenever you want something in life, in this case a degree, that requires a deep time commitment, you have to give up something. Having it all is not possible. (I here the OOoooooo's in the audience.) Well it is true. Do you want to be mediocre? Then spread yourself thin. Do you want to be the best? Do one thing then, and do it well and better than anyone else. The better your focus, the better you will obtain it. So while Joe academic is at the movies Saturday night pounding on his date when he gets home, brush up on next weeks final exam, and spend more time in the prof's office and running the class material through some personal what-if's to understand not just all the angles from the class material, INVENT NEW ONES, and get those too with the spare time....
For me I have given up for the moment, what the next 6 years will bring. My goal is to go to GRAD school, which requires upfront some realistic thinking: I will have to be a cut above the rest of the academic slobs in my class, if I want to get into GRAD school. That requires MORE time, and more commitment than the average BS candidate will make.
So the question is: What will I have to give up to do that? Answer:
1) A slowed down social life for the next 4 years.
2) A change of my circle of friends, from professional to academic and not so bad, maybe even meet more new friends.
3) A hold on any romantic interests that infers.
For me, 1-3 was a no brainer, as I don't want children, and am an over achiever....which drives most women I meet nuts anyway.
But, in your case, you have tried going back to school more than once, and dare I suggest perhaps, you really aren't serious about it because you have failed to give up things in your life you value more than the degree.
I would seriously reconsider. Perhaps, you can find other forms of achievement just as secure or rewarding...(start up a different business in a different industry for example, like open a restraunt....etc.)
Nothing goes together quite as well as good food, and good coding.
Write a book? Isn't that what experience is best at doing in conveying knowledge to the younger who have yet to walk the road you have?
Writing a book is definately a intellectual pursuit I recommend. It also, requires lots of time and effort and focus.
Historically, it doesn't sound like you really want a degree? It will not buy you anymore security than what you already have, if you have seriously employed yourself and are successfuly at it. After all, employing ones self successfully in a field where by you can consider doing something else, is an expression of the ultimate achievement.
I think you are looking for a different challenge and to me, I don't think school is it. I think it is the fact everyone on Slashdot says, more education is always good.
Indeed it is, but not always for the same reasons. If you seriously built a company in this industry and you have achieved independance like I have, and employee PhD's like I have had, then getting a degree is questionable if you want to expand your background.
For myself, I am going back to school simply because I find it as something unfinished in my life, when at a time, I wasn't financially equipped to handle the year to year ongoing financialy requirements. That and my mom and dad dreamed I would go to college, and now that I just lost my last parent, I realize some of that dream I shared is incomplete.
But I don't delude myself, for one moment, I am going to discover something about computer science I don't already know, or somehow, will obtain information that will secure me financially or GOD FORBID, I have to work for someone else, simply by attending college.
That is a bunch of Bull, and don't let anyone here on Slashdot tell you, it is not possible to achieve knowledge without going to our finest institutions...
Most of the people who went to our finer institutions, of the 20th century, who worked for DECADES on some of the most secret parts of the Universe, essentially had thier entires lifes work INVALIDATED by a simple office clerk, who couldn't get INTO college. I am not talking about simple minded tasks of building a web site either here. This man fundamentally changed our entire view of creation and is the reason why we have our modern society. (i.e. HINT E=mc SQUARED)
If anything, the success I made over the past 13 years has made me permenantly UNEMPLOYABLE because I don't put up with "people who took the short bus to school" in a professional environment.
Those kind of people work for my competitors because I certainly don't hire them thank God.
But, in any case, I would seriously reconsider your reasons for going back too school beyond money matters, especially, if you say you are already financially independant enough to make that sort of commitment.
Hack
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
I have even written a resume that shows VERY little experience...but it's harder to lie about what you HAVENT done than it is to lie about what you HAVE done. For example, I ran a succesful DataCenter for 5 years. That alone has ruined my chances. They think if I come in, I'm going to want to take over the company (NOT!). So, sometimes I don't put it, then they ask me what I've done during those years, I have a tough time finding a valid replacement :) When people ask me "How well do you know AIX?" I tell them I've administered it at jobs for the past 2 years, and my company for 5, and I have a f30 at home. Thdey don't BELIEVE me! (Why would you have an f30?) I got so mad, I had one guy ssh in to the box and do a uname. You know what he said? "How do I know this is yours?" AARRGGHH!!!!!!!!! Well, they gave the job to an MCSE....
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
[T]he United States Open University officially closed on July 31st 2002.
A pity. IMHO OU is one of the best ideas in higher education.
If I was an american, I'd sure as hell protest about this: adult education is one of the most important methods of raising the educational level of citizens. It is also actually one of the best manifestations of the american dream
does anyone know why you americans abandoned this method ? is this a political thing ? did they get bought ? or was it that the ROI too low for the investors ?
I find it hard to believe there isn't a steady demand for the open-university's services in the US. Am I wrong in this?
Working for necessity's mother.
WFT is that all about? Email you if I need help? I thought you were busy! Go and give her another boffin' rather than replyu to a bunch of /. lovepuppies.