Slashdot Mirror
On Balancing Career & College...
An anonymous reader asks: "Hi folks. Some advice please - I've been in university twice already and quit both times - the first due to lack of interest in the course and the second a combination of lack of interest and work pressures. The second time round, I started a tech company and it's now three years old and doing OK. I am now seriously thinking about going back to Uni to get a degree (for real this time ;-). Is anyone out there successfully juggling running a company and studying at the same time? How do you juggle the two without hampering either due to lack of the right amount of attention?"
No one I've talked to that's gotten their degree after they've gotten their career started has regretted it.
Always going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse.
It is apersonal thing; I think. I have considerd it once or twice, but in the end, I just read books on what I want to learn and leave it at that. I have nothing, along those lines, to prove to myself. I have a very successful software company and quite fulfilled.
Jamey Kirby
"How do you juggle the two without hampering either due to lack of the right amount of attention?"
Learn to deligate. Hardest lesson for begining CEO's to learn.
It all depends on how much time your business needs. However if you can't fit in a large ammount of time for the course then there's always distance learning for example Open University it all depends what you wish to study. Or if you're only in it for the social life.
I am in a similar boat. I work 40 hours a week at night, and go to school during the day. I also like to go out once in a while, and I have a full time girlfriend.
First if you are with someone, they are going to need to understand that school and work are going to have to come pretty close to first. What this means is, you might not be able to be there all the time. (If they love you, they'll understand).
Find a mix of classes that work for you. Obviously if you are going for computer science you don't want to take 5 upper level computer science classes in the same semester. Take 1 and take a few ( 2 - 4 ) other general elective classes that you need. This should get you through the fall and spring, while knocking out your gen-ed requirements.
Then continue on with school throw the summer. This time take 2 computer science classes.
A schedule like this should get your through, while still allowing you a wee little bit of free time.
Keep in mind that you are going to live a very very structured life for the next few years as you work towards your degree. Sleep will become something you value, because you won't be able to do it as much as you'd like. Make sure you get 1 day off a week, or every 2 weeks. This is important, because it keeps you sane and the g/f happy.
Just my thoughts, and what works for me.
I've been working full time and studying for the last three years. I was intially full-time study and work for two years. My relationship with my GF died as a result tho. I took a year off study the following year and now have a deal with my employer to work 4 days a week on full salary, allowing one day a week to study part-time. The flipside of this is that i owe them i year of work after i finish study next year.
It is hard work but i enjoy it. I am studying multimedia and think its great!
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I refuse to have a sig... dammit!
Never give up sleep time for study time. During sleep your mind makes the transfer to long term memory. If you are not sleeping 7 hours, you might as well not study at all that day.
And get a good outside accountant. Nothing will go wrong with your business that you cannot fix by delegating, except your in house accountant stealing from you.
So, study, sleep, delegate and don't let the mice play while you are away.
If voting were effective, it would be illegal by now.
My advice is to find somewhere that really caters for people who are working as well as studying. Anywhere thats overly tough on deadlines is not going to work out for you. No matter how dedicated you are emergencies are going to crop up from time to time , and your livelihood is always going to win out over your studies. I started a mathematics degree with the Open University (Correspondance course with a good rep) this year, but i missed to many deadlines when the company i worked for went into liquidation, so I've given up for this year and am going to start from scratch next year. it was tough going , but if it had'nt been for the liquidation it would have been manageable. Maybe theres a similar flexible correspondance course that covers your area (as far as i know the open university covers just about everywhere see www.open.ac.uk)
"In Xanadu did Kubla Khan a stately pleasure dome decree"
I assume this troll was trying to be funny.
But 10/hr? Shit, in this economy I would happily take it. 2 years ago I would not believe I would say anything like this. But today sadly thats the reality. Oh and I bet a true paper MCSE certification with no other skills is not worth 10/hr. They are with minimium wage.
Well off to bed so I can start my 7/hr job at the bookstore. grrr
http://saveie6.com/
Do a few classes a term.
The rule of thumb is 2 hours coursework for every hour in class. So figure out how much time you want to spend a week, and do those many hours/3 until you graduate.
Focus on courses you really care about -- I'm much happier now that I've left CE for political Sciene and History. I'd do this stuff anyway, now I get credit for it.
You should realize that one Liberal Arts degree is as good as another, if your passion is something that is technically useless (Philosophy, Art history) you should major in that. You'll do well, and nobody really cares what the words on the degree are.
You may be able to save time by taking courses you already know -- if your business ws web design you might want to take a course on PERL. If you already know it you'll do well without effort; and if you don't you'll be doing training you should do anyway.
In short, you should focus on the shit you'd do even if you weren't in school. I read about politics for fun, so I do PoliSci. I don't do CompSci because I've never gotten around to reading any of my dozen or so programming books. You should also manage your time wisely -- but you have a business so tyou know about that.
It sounds like this guy found out its much more rewarding to work than to go to school. And doing both just plain sucks. There is no balance -- you pick one and do it seriously. Or you do your 40-50 hours a week at work and take a single class. Yeah, it takes forever, I went to school with a guy who spent about 10 yrs getting his BS doing just that.
I tried to balance school and work for a couple years, it didn't work. It hurt me in school and I was over stressed at work from my school demands. I finished college and quit working to do it.
Your mileage may vary.
dont be in a hurry to get your degree
and make sure not to take a huge class load
Working and studying at the same time seems to fit some people - for me definitely not. I tried working part-time for two years, after that I switched full-time job and stopped studying almost totally. Now I'm back at university because I want to get my degree. I suppose it weights more than work experience, at least in the long run.
...and it is defined as being able to clearly remember your goal at all times. Paper chasing has it's merits...such as a higher salary than someone who didn't finish the chase.
Without it, you are doomed to a life as a semi-pro.
Pick something and stay with it. (haven't we been around this tree once already this year?)
1. Be very clear on why you are going (back) to university.
2. Where do you think you are going to get the time to stay on top of your profession while also studying?
3. Have you spoken with the professors who will be teaching the courses you would be taking? Do you already know more than they do about business and technology? If so, what do you expect to learn from them?
4. Assuming you are currently on the bleeding edge of some technical specialties, expect to be obsolete when you graduate.
5. Don't assume there will be a job waiting for you when you graduate.
6. Don't assume your current customers will still be in business when you graduate.
7. Don't assume your current business will be viable when you graduate.
I believe BCIT (in/near Vancouver) has a computer science (I'm assuming that's what you are after, since this is /.) type program where you are required to get some "work experience" at around the same time anyway. The minimum work requirements are probably very different that what you are doing, but my impression is that it would generaly be very flexible for people who are working at the same time.
Have you seen if there are any places along those lines that would be an option for you?
...if you are in the u.k. then you'll probably not have that many hours...because over here we specialise in one subject. I did AI & CS and had about 20 or so hours most weeks (along with other work).
Now here's the fun part...I ran my own company too! (As well as dj'ing both over here in the U.K. and in Brussels, Belgium) It IS possible, it just requires that you have a timetable and STICK to it.
The worst thing you can do is mix up your social time (and remember university IS about meeting new people) and your work time. Have a set time for uni work, for work work and for play (all work and no play...etc.).
It's possible...just make sure that you give university the same attention that you do your company and socialising and you should be fine.
Good Luck! It's hard but rewarding.
I am NaN
I just graduated hs and am doing the community college bit this year because I never got around to applying to a 4 year college. I work 3 days a week(24hrs) and have 14 credit hours.
Working great for me so far. We see how I do next semester when the robotics season starts.
I went to University in order to get a good job. Now I have one, I dream of running my own company. You have your own company which by your admission is doing OK. Ask yourself why it is you really want to go back to school for a third time. You are older and have a business to run now. What could a degree change in your situation? I could understand if you were in a job and a degree could help your career prospects, but here that does not appear to be the case.
You need to do some soul searching. Don't get caught up in intellectual snobbery where you (or other people make you) think that getting a degree is somehow going to change you as a person or change the way people look at you. Don't be ashamed if people working for you have better qualifications that you do. The bottom line is that they are working for you, not you for them!
I think the current western trend to work hard, always biting into your free time, is the wrong way to live. That's just my opinion. If you think you can run a company and go to school and still have a fulfilled life (family, home, and love is what it's really all about, not your salary) then you go ahead. I will be the first to congratulate you if you succeed. But perhaps now the thing to think about is why you feel you need a degree if you are already running your own company. Strengthen your character and your interpersonal relationships, and take some professional qualifications / courses related to your line of work if you want, but why torture yourself about going back to school?
Also, bear in mind that a lot of responses here so far are probably from college students. They think (and they are right, from their perspective right now) that school is the best thing in the world. But school is not about getting a degree, it's about getting independance and working out a number of work ethic structures, logical thought processes, prioritisations, etc. The degree is just part of the process, and the better a degree you get is due to how well you organise, communicate, and learn (in an abstract sense) to use tools at your disposal.
So if you really feel you need a degree for your own self esteem, then go for it. But don't do it to the detriment of everything else, because you may find that if you ever get the degree, that your life does not change significantly. Anyone who thinks they are better than you just because they have a degree and you don't is clearly wrong, but you may not be old enough (or they may not be) to realise it. Perhaps something else is really at the root of your problems, and you need to search your heart to find out what your life priorities really are.
Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
you've quit twice allready, now your looking for a per talk about going back. I'd be willing to take a bed that you won't finish. Why are you going back? What is it going to get you?
I'm in the same boat you are, EXCEPT I'm getting my graduate degree I LIKE school. I suspect you don't and staying will be a pain for you, and unless the rewards are VERY great your going to leave again.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/sports/DailyNews/sh aq_graduates_001215.html
If Shaq can get his degree, you can too! The problem is that your free throws might suffer.
Many others have done it too, Steven Spielberg for example.
...going for your MSc or MBA on-line. I've got no official education whatsoever, and MSc in IT is officially a post-graduate thing, but based on my working experience I got into the program, and you sound like you've got enough experience. Check out KIT e-learning on http://www.kitcampus.com It's an officially recognized MSc or MBA through the University of Liverpool and it's designed for working professionals, so you can set your own pace and meet with your peers from all over the world. Don't know if this helps, but it worked for me ;)
it's strange that I do a academic counseling here. :)
:)
:)
First of all in view of your achievement you don't need a bachelor degree. All you need is an MBA(or EMBA depends on how good your business is). Some colleges require you to get a bachelor degree first, but some don't. Even if you aren't interested in this subject you might need it later - you need some sort of qualification when you are dealing with venture captalists, a bachelor degree might not be enough.
If you wanna learn things in a particular area you can go for some professional qualifcaitons in Laws, Finance and Account, etc.. If you've no preference at the moment you can consider Actuaries, which covers wide range of subjects and lead to profession qualifications(assoicate, fellowship, etc.). Even if you drop out of it in the middle, you can switch to CFA.
In order to avoid being mod off-topic, I covers some professional qualifications you can consider in IT: Java programmer/developer/architect, CISSP, CCIE, RHCE, etc. Avoid MCS* - no reason at all, just my personal preference.
I think the most important question that you have to ask yourself is not about hard or difficult university is. But actually where you want to go with your company. Are you happy with its position in the market place? Do you forsee a period of growth in the company or is the company at a point where there isn't much room to grow in the short to medium term.
The next thing you need to think about is the staff that you currently have. How much of your role can you delegate? For instance do you have a capable member of staff to meet with clients?
It isn't uncommon for business owners to want go back and get qualified but in the situation you're in you might want to consider a greater slant on business skills. After all, if you know what you're talking about technically do you really need a sheet of paper to tell you that?
Good advice ... if you want to limit your opportunities for advancement and salary limits.
In the REAL WORLD, IT experience is difficult to *measure*.
In the REAL WORLD, perception matters and first impressions count.
In the REAL WORLD, HR departments look at your level of education achieved, in addition to experience. For example, this is used to set starting salaries for new hires.
In the REAL WORLD, a college/university degree is a long-term investment. Having a good job (today) is no guarantee of security -- it is a short-term, short-sighted view of the world, in an industry still experiencing layoffs.
See ya in the food stamp line!
I did the first year courses of math+C.S. degree at the open university, while serving in the army at the time.
the nature of my army-service (artillery, which is like a semi-combat position) did not allow for regular schedule, so I needed to study with a flexible schedule, and study mostly by myself (which I like).
I found the courses in the OU clear, instructory and very well-intented (much more so than most of the profs I had to deal with later).
I propose to anyone which works, doesn't have a degree and considers it:
1) do it. you will benefit, period.
2) for the working person, or the young mother (very much a working person...) for which a flexible schedule is the best, the OU is the best option. it is actually designed for people with other constraints.
BTW, I am currently not affiliated with the O.U. in any way.
Working for necessity's mother.
Question why you need to go to University if you're already becoming successful. Taking your eye of the ball can be fatal to the operation of your company.
Secondly in the UK there are Open University courses which allow you to get a degree at home - You do about 90% of the work at home and attend the actual university for some workshop type courses - I'll be very surprised if there isn't an equivalent in the US (or wherever you live)
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
I'm studying computer science right now, and, well I'm not running a company, but I have started to work now and then as a freelance in webdesign. It's very small scale as of now, but it might be more. Personally, I couldn't do more than that, like running a company. I think it would take up too much of my time (i *could* do better at college...)
I guess it all depends on determination and what you want to get out of academic studies. I used to work for a bank, while trying to get a degree at the same time. Since I tend to have a more practical approach to work, I often couldn't see the benefits of my very theoretical business studies and focused on work. Eventually I quit the job and finished my studies with a one year full-time MBA course, which was just perfect for me. I got enough theoretical background, while getting a lot of practical input from a great variety of backgrounds, mostly from fellow students.
So, if all you want is the degree and the theories, by all means consider part-time courses, but if what you want is a broad knowledge and a network of people, you should opt for a full-time course, which will probably not leave you the time to successfully run your company.
Having said that, a friend of mine founded a company during his studies, eventually wrote his PhD thesis on the stuff he did in his company and is to this day, running the company, teaching students and doing research. He doesn't have much time for a private life though.
Hope this helps and good luck.
I feel so sig.
From what you said, lack of interest is what keeps coming up. I'm guessing that this is either lack of interest in the subject matter, or that the quality of education you're getting is insufficient to hold your attention. Either way, I think you're going to be a lot better off if you address either of those first. I'm in your position, and what I'm finding is that the classes I'm taking now (as opposed to then) have real-world applicability, and so I'm a lot more motivated and excited by the material. I can tell what is more likely to be useful to me and what isn't, and I can ask questions based on what I've seen and what I want to do in the future. If this isn't happening for you, perhaps that's the real problem to fix...
For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
yep i feel your pain, i'm probably worse off than you, i dont have any education or formal experience, and i pale in comparison to the real world experience of many here, but compared to pretty much any person in the local computer shops, i am a genius(which is sad, i'm not that much into hardware really), yet i cant even get a job at one of those.
for the record, i'm the biggest computer geek i know (in real life), and i make 6 dollars an hour flipping burgers. what a life.
I got my whole bachelor's working during the day and going to school at least four nights a week until 10 p.m. plus odd weekends (and sometimes having to drive 70 miles for the classes).
It can be done, just set that diploma as your goal and sort of coast along in the work -- doing your work, but not the "I'm working for a promotion or to expand the business" kind of work.
I do the hiring of IT people for my company and we laugh at your silly college degrees. It's experience that counts, not how many years you spent in uni sucking up beer and chasing girls. Most of the uni grads we have seen are crap, unskilled and overconfident. I have a team of 18 programmers and the only uni grad is the lowest ranked programmer on the team. It will be another 12-24 months before we can get him trained to a state where he can start to really make contributions to the team. We will be training him with a combination of mentoring, real world projects and extra study - by the end of which he will be a kick butt programmer because (and here's the crucial bit) we hired him because he had great *attitude*.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
Your question is asked a bit further down the path than mine, however I am in the same exact situation.
.....no i thought it was easy to work and go to school-- ***own a business? thats what cell phones are for***
Mine not due to boredom, but a drug addicted father whose "commitment" to providing his gifted (2 states say so) son with a top rate education forced yours truly to drop out of junior college and fetch a job.
Here I am 5 years and 300 hrs of tech school later squeezed between manual labor (restaurants) and automatic (or so it seems) certification (thank you test out, transcender) a published professor at the same community college I dropped out of (no joke-- I still havent a single credit, yet I have written curriculum for 3 classes I teach-- non credit, of course) in the midst of a career knowing i could be pretty dangerous with just a few more letters after my name.
My self gratification notwithstanding, can you tell me if it is as important to you as it is to me to get a degree? (or two?) I will tell you if i am to "live up to expectations" my future depends on it.
Lets say it is as or nearly as important- Can you not free up some space here, "take the bull by the horns" and do the nike thing? Did we go to grammar school in the same country?
***in class? i got some tech for ya-- VIBRATE MODE, 2 WAY TEXT MESSAGING, RELIABLE PARTNER--dont ask me which of the three are the most available or reliable-- i hate buzz words***
If it is not as important to you then rest on your laurels. Start with a class at a time and use that big noggan that helped you succeed in the first place to weigh your options. c'mon-- for an entepreneur of any magnitude that can last 3 years, weighing options is not rocket science.
(text can be such a useless medium for sarcasm)
for a straight up opinion (we know what we think of those) you will obviously be forced to adhere to an educational institution's schedule, so the best thing for your business is plan, plan, plan-- got a wife? or a brother? (seperated siamese twin would be best)...rule of thumb in business...when the wolf's away the sheep will play....i know thats what you are reeeally worried about, right?
now what the hell do i do?
Seriously man,
If you got the oppertunity to go back, take it. What is the nature of your business, do you have any staff you can trust to run things?
See, right now, me and all my chums are out of work, and it's been that way for a while (and not looking much better) I was a sysadmin for 7 years and was making 86k at my last sysadmin job without a degree. It was dot com times man!
The one universal thread between me and my other jobless cohorts is the lack of education. Your situation might have been different, but I chose the career path over school, as did many of my friends, but now we're beggin our families to help us out.. It's not industrious self reliance.
And damn those people with degree's that got the burger flipping jobs over us here in silicon valley. I'd take ANY job right now, I applied to the orchard supplies and the Mc Donalds, my wife doubled up, filled out applications, and applied again and STILL NO response.
It's hard as hell out there, i'm in a position where if I just had a burger flipping job, I could go back to school. Dammit.
--toq
Hi there,
I started a company with 3 friends two years ago. We were all in our 3rd year at University at the time (with one year remaining of our undergraduate degrees).
We decided that it would be sensible to have one of us at University (working part time for the company) while the other two worked full time. We knew that we could take up to two years "break" from study, so this seemed like a great idea.
It didn't really work though! One of us stayed on and ended up getting a lower mark that he would have done had he not had extra commitments. One year down the line my other colleague tried to return, but found that juggling the business and study was just too hard.
Two years down the line, it is my turn to go back, but I have decided not to. Both myself and my similarly uneducated colleague have been told we can graduate with ordinary degrees (should have been honours degrees), but that suits me fine. Employers may look at the degree and wonder why it is not honours, but I have glowing references from University staff (who have been very supportive, both of me personally and my company), and a CV/Resume that is bolstered with two years experience that "book learnin'" can never replace!
I have decided that if I do return to study later, it will be some form of business related course. Although my original study was in Computing and Electronics, I feel that the actual value of the study (beyond the preconceptions of employers) is not too great. I don't mean the course was bad or anything, just that I can learn the skill themselves in my own way, albeit I have no official proof of these skills.
Dunno if this is any help to anyone, just my wee story!!
Incidentally, in a shameless plug, please check out our website (though be kind on the /. effect!!). The company is called Amoza Limited. In fitting with a lot of the feeling on /. of late (especially in relation to new consumer electronics products like the Sony PVR and MS Mira et al) we are developing a bespoke thin client platform that we hope will be adopted by consumer electronics manufacturers to create the next generation products. The platform is designed to run on a home PC or a dedicated box (such dedicated boxes would be created by manufacturers for specific product ranges etc). It is capable of creating visual display remotely (in all shapes and sizes e.g. small screens for consumer products), and sending sound etc. but I won't take the shamless plug too far here!! Check out the site (and particularly the Concept Products section) for more info. Please feel free to send us feedback, as it is much appreciated (though sending us money would be appreciated more!!).
I used to need fifteen hours of sleep a night. Then, I completely cut sugar out of my diet. Not only did it make me more lively during the day, now I only need 6 - 8 hours of sleep a night, provided that I keep a regular schedule.
-M
Everything Solved, High-Quality Bugzilla, Perl, and Linux Services
Atleast here, the fact that universites for example get certain amount of government money per graduated student, helps the discussion. The situation in US might completely different - but still: convince a professor about the fact that you learn by doing. Ofcourse you need to (and you should, it's good for you!) complete some theoretical studies as well - but theoretical studies can be interesting as well, if you know it benefits your business. As result, you might see that you can complete your studies by 60% work and 40% extra, for example.
I had to drop out because a) I had no financial help from family and b) the University's accounting system was so fucked up is sent my loan checks back because I was not enrolled. Why was I not enrolled? I was in non-payment. Why was I in non-payment? Because the University kept sending my loan checks back. To get the bill collectors off my back I wound up getting a real job and taking a personal loan.
So here I am, most of the way there, and only a mountain of debt to show for it.
Do you REALLY want to run up extra bills? Do you REALLY want the equivilent of a mortgage on your brain? You had the god given sense to get out before it got too expensive.
Lets face it, a degree is no more than a sheet of paper the gets you in the door. You are the guy on the other side of the door already. Aside from pride, what are you intending to achieve?
Also note that colleges are bursting at the seams with echo boomers at the moment. Prices are sky high because there are literally boatloads of people chasing paper right now.
As for me, my present employer has tuition reimbursement. I am taking them up on it because a) my original University is 10 blocks away from my apartment (and 11 blocks away from my Office), and b) in an education setting a lack of a degree is keeping me out if certain positions, like Director. I have definite measureable goals to be reached by obtaining a degree, the means to do it, and the support of my Wife and Boss.
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
In the REAL WORLD, IT experience is difficult to *measure*.
In the REAL WORLD, A Cisco or MCSE etc certification gives more bang for the buck than any possible college degree.
That's not the way it works pal. You seem to have very conservative thoughts. College people are easy to find, every Joe Average can get a college diploma if he really wants. Colleges/Universities are full of average skilled IT people, lamers to tell you the truth. However, persons who have hacker's mindset are rare and they get hired, whether or not they have college diploma. Truly skilled people are HARD TO FIND! If you are truly skilled, it's not the job interviewer who asks 'what can you offer us', it is you who can ask 'what can you offer me? you gotta assure me pretty damn well that this is the job I want.'. Then it's pretty easy living.
Don't let anyone fool you. If you're rich and miserable you'll still be as unhappy as poor and miserable.
In my case, I started with computers when I was in high school and it seemed like a natural choice for college. I finished an associates degree and started working. 7 years of professional programming have taught me one thing. I hate computers. Or at least programming them. I thought long and hard and finally realized my true love is aircraft and space craft. I'm going to school part time (7 credit hours this semester) for an aerospace engineering degree while at the same time working full time as a programmer. (Oh and I'm married.)
First, decide what it is you want most to achieve happiness. Don't even start school until you decide that. Once you have, make achieving that goal your priority. Remember, we're talking about happiness here. If it means sacrificing some work here and there, it will probably be worth it in the long run.
Planetes
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promo Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitl
I suppose I'm in a similar situation. I'm at the tail end of my third university attempt in the past five years, and while this one has been a bit more successful than the others, I'm pretty certain I'll be leaving school at the end of this term.
... but it's expensive, often boring, and too far removed from all the other pies I've got my fingers in. I don't want to abandon it all together, but I'm certain I don't want to make it my singular focus for the next few years.
... go to school. If you're enjoying your work, but you really want to go to school, do both, part time.
I'm impatient. While I've taken some classes that are absolutely thrilling, for the most part I'm unimpressed with life as a full time student. In the last five years, I've managed to start a few successful businesses, I've done a lot of traveling, and have had generally free reign to pursue my interests and make something of them. I've been able to support myself quite well in nearly all of my ventures.
I enjoy working. I enjoy developing business plans. I enjoy making real money. I enjoy the risk of failure. I like the real world interaction, the respect, and the challenge of dealing with things that come up in "real life."
Granted, for a lot of people, the academic world is real life. For me, it's just another interesting project
What do I think you should do? If you're enjoying your work, stick with it, and make the most of it. Don't pay attention to the naysayers and their "what if the economy fails, how will you find another job, blah blah blah." If things go wrong and you can't find another job, go to school. If you're looking for something else to do
If you're in a good situation now, there's no reason to leave it, unless you think you could do better in another situation. Only you can know what your true priorities are, and given the amount of success you say you've had, I say that you can successfully trust your instincts with this decision.
You're most likely a younger guy like myself. Early twenties? Late teens? You've got plenty of years to "get your life together" before you start thinking about supporting a family and what-have-you. It's better to take the risks now, when you can afford to make a few bad decisions, than attempt to "do the right thing" out of some sense of obligation or guilt -- that's a sure fire way to end up burnt out and miserable.
It sounds cheesy, but I say follow your heart: There are tons of successful people with and without degrees, and what seems to count most is your passion and commitment to whatever it is that you find the most fulfilling.
Enough of my rambling. Best of luck to ya!
You go to college at nite to night classes. You get your degree much slower but it makes you available for your business during the day.
The other drawback is that you now have ZERO life. and if you have a family you will almost never see them, and/or you will lose them. The nightly bar scene is no longer an option excepto for maybe (if you're lucky) once a month.
Oh, and your burn rate just tripled.
If you can take the piled on pressure then go for it... Me, I won't. I have a 10 year old daughter and spending time with her is more important than anything else on this planet, including work, school, whatever.. But that's how my priorities are arranged.... Look at your priorities and see if school can fit in there.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Well I encourage you to get an a+ certification. Here in Las Vegas you can make up to 9/hr starting pay. Its not administration or anything fun but rather repairing and configuring pc's. It sure as hell beats flipping burgers and you can get basic health insurance and move out of your parents place. Exprience is what killed me after the .com crash when I was laid off.
Anyway I am off to finish my a+ and hopefully get out of the bookstore. Sadly these days, a+ is looked upon more then mcse wannabe's.
http://saveie6.com/
Hi there.
Reviewing the balance between work and school that I kept for the last three years, I came to the conclusion that my job almost always took higher priority. The following reasons for this situation are possible:
1) Tackling real problems on the real world is often more interesting than contemplating theoretical problems on the sphere of idealistic academic thought. Real problems are more complex, demanding, challenging, and much less clean, tidy and nicely-organized than academic material. The solution often surprises you, and of course there always is the immediate satisfaction of helping real people overcome a real obstacle, gaining the appreciation of you friends & colleagues, improving your material standing, etc.
2)When the coursed are particularly tedious, downright boring and utterly detached from any sort of reality, your job might become a handy excuse to neglect your studying. This is especially powerful in times of real (or perceived) crisis/emergency at work, but investing time in your work while neglecting school is an efficent way to avoid feelings of guilt and shame when failure follews inevitably at the footsteps of neglect.
I hope these insights will help you somewhat in your decision and the challenge you will face, should you decide to face it.
Only the ignorant says that knowledge is irrelevant or obsolete. That was never true, even though ignorants has said it for centuries. Knowledge is not a burden to carry, and there are always domains where it is applicable. Without the knowledge, you will of course not see the applications, hence you should not judge its usefulness without it.
The next step is to fear knowledge.
With fear for knowledge comes a society where people burn books in public.
Reality bites, go take a history class.
Hi, I am also in same dilemma. I completed my bachelors 1 1/2 years back. I got job offers from top tech companies in the world, but the bug to start a company caught me hard and put me in startup. The boom time was already vanishing but I thought I have capabilities and opportunities to achieve the success. So I refused to go for higher studies or not to take (so called) good jobs. Although I had strong inclination to go for higher studies in US, I dropped them all for a startup plan. I started by joining a startup (HOT and promising :-) as core team member and led the product development with all successes. But that startup closed with slowdown bell continuously ringing on its head. I along with the other two guys from that startup again started a new company in november,2001 and till date we have development a professional and value product (in KM field) which is creating interest in the industry and we are hoping to get funded very soon or at least have continuous revenue stream coming in soon. And all this is happening because we are getting a merger offer from another well established startup. So in short the future of the company looks bright, there is an opportunity, but the question is at what cost? I am strongly feeling that by going for higher studies in US (although I can't afford it, I will have to go hunting for TAs and RAs) I will be brightening my chances as entrepreneur also. Along with that I also feel that it's a right time to upgrade my skills and qualifications to start something new. I don't know how right am I by saying that a good education degree from US (preferably MS) will increase my chances, but I feel that to unleash my true potential I need to move ahead of this company (although this is my company) and try to do something big. The bug stops at what to do and when to do? Because the moment I join the new merger plan I will have to abide to the new service agreements of founders and which will not leave any space for another probably 2 years for my studies. I am damm confused with this all, and I would appreciate any comments, help and suggestions from experienced people (I am too young to be called experienced, 22). I can share more if anyone can guide me :-)
how do we do here around in france when some important guy wants to learn about something? yes, you got it, the society pays for him to learn. if you're the boss, then what's the problem? take one week every 2-3 months to go on course, so you'll learn whatever you like/you need, have time for your family/friends, and these formations are generally more rewarding than university, as they are generally not only theoric courses, and allow you to get some experience on the subject. after that, once you get smarter on the subject, you can use some of your spare time to read books and go deeper about it. then, you save time AND money, and you get to learn what can be useful for you.
irma trattino
eat.me at http://irmetta.free.fr
If this works for you, then fine. However there are a lot of organisations out there where, if you don't have a degree, you won't even get a first interview.
A degree shows a lot more than just drinking beer and chasing girls.
It shows (in the UK anyway) the ability to live away from home, work to strict timelines, fend for yourself, learn information that wasn't interesting to you, cope in unfamilar surroundings and, after all that, discipline yourself so that, in spite of the distractions, you're able to study and come out with a good degree.
To many people, myself included, a degree shows a lot more about a person than just they got a IIi in Computer Science.
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
Please follow these simple step instead.
1. Open a Hotmail account
2. Wait a couple of days
3. From all the junk mail you surely will have in your inbox by then, choose one whose subject line reads something similar to that of this post.
4. Follow the advice there.
Best regards,
Alex
(I mean, you obviously don't NEED a degree, it looks to me as you already have the knowledge you really NEED..)
I worked in some way or another for most of my time at uni, but for the last two years I was also director of an IT consultancy. To be fair I was quite slack about the whole thing, but I found that balancing the two was extremely draining, I'd get home after a day of work/study and have to do more work/study to keep up to date. It got particularly bad as finals and projects approached.
If you can avoid it, I would. University is just too much fun and too useful to waste time you could be spending studying or having fun with friends.
Chris "Ng" Jones
cmsj@tenshu.net
www.tenshu.net
I went to the university once, started working as a software developer and I quit school. Now I'm going back to school but doing it all through correspondence work. It's all on my own time, on my own schedule. I am enrolled at The American College of Computer and Information Sciences. Also the University of Phoenix does online degrees too as far as I know. ACCIS is fairly easy but you have to keep on doing it. It's easy to stop when you don't have due dates for anything. Right now I'm in 3 classes and you only have to turn in 1 assignment from any of your classes every 2 months minimum. Obviously you'll want to turn in more than that.... else computers will be obsolete when you graduate. :)
Anyhow... might want to browse the websites. Can't hurt to poke around. Feel free to e-mail me personally if you want to know more about it (or anybody can e-mail me if they want).
I've been working on my CS degree for over 3 years now (almost done!) with about about 7 years in the industry. I work 40+ hours a week and take 2-3 classes a semester at night. I'm also a homeowner and have a wife. In other words... I have plenty of distractions.
The secret is: A very rigid schedule and the discipline to keep it. This is my weekly schedule for this semester:
Monday: Work then homework
Tuesday: Work then Arch class
Wednesday: Work then Client/Server class
Thursday: Work then Java class
Friday: Work then stress relief (movies, club, etc.)
Saturday: Sleep in then homework
Sunday: Wake up normal time and do yardwork/household chores then homework
It was hell my first few semesters, but I got used to it. Now I wonder what I'm going to do with all my free time when I'm done with school!
Unless you are an extreme workhorse, I suggest a good balance of hours. I find that if you spend more than 24 hours focused on your job then your marks will suffer. But maybe you just want to skim by.
I'm a writer, a poet, a genius, I know it. I don't buy software, I grow it.
Well I have been in 3 different degrees, started with ComSci, liked it, then we had a strike which screwed my progress because I really tanked two courses badly...
Good luck I got accepted into Education, but then found out that I would need an honors degree to teach ComSci at high school... and that wasn't cool, with that level of education, why would I only teach... So I got out of education and headed back to ComSci...
But because scheduling conflicts I was unable to get into courses I need (stupid ComSci department), so I took History courses until I could get the needed courses...
Then I took a year off to work, which turned into 2, which then I finally returned back, and am now finishing my History degree...
Do I appreciate education... Yes, do I have real world experience... Yes... Am I set for a good job... I sure hope so.
Tournament Management Online &
College/University is tough. Especially when
holding down another job. You will have to
find the discipline within yourself to finish
this time; through thick and thin, and not
abandon ship when times get rough.
Those who make it are rewarded. Those who don't
get lower paying jobs. Then, of course, there
are the lucky ones. Hard work always pays
off.
And since you are your own boss, you should be cool to yourself.
I am a graduate student in cultural geogaphy, which means that my advisors and classmates care two shits about my work. If I complain that school is interfering with my job, I get stony looks from the professors and told to quit. Luckily, since I work in IT at the University where I study, I can just pop out of the office for class and seminars. How can I do this? My boss is cool enough to allow it. If you can find a situation that will allow such an arrangement, then go for it. My boss is allowing me the whole summer off (w/o pay, of course) to do my fieldwork overseas. I do consider myself lucky? Yes. But then again, you make your luck. Being good at what I do helps.
With regard to your situation, since you are your own boss, cut yourself some breaks. You have the unique luxury to do so.
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
I assume from the fact that you mention A-levels that you're in the UK. (Correct me if I'm wrong...) My experience is that CS taught at UK universities varies greatly. I decided to do maths instead of CS as an undergraduate degree, precisely because I expected to be bored senseless after looking at the syllabuses for several BSc/BA level CS courses at major universities. I've never regretted the decision to take maths instead.
I was, however, lucky enough to do a Diploma in CS at the University of Cambridge once I'd finished my undergrad degree. That was based on the undergrad degree syllabus, missing a few of the practical classes and some of the more advanced final year stuff, and compressed into one extended year. It was a very well rounded presentation, and while I didn't learn that much factually in some of the courses, it did open my eyes to several areas I'd either never have heard of, or never thought much about before (numerical analysis, functional programming and database design, to name a few). I certainly don't regret taking the Diploma either; it proved an excellent opportunity to sharpen up the skills I already had, and filled in a few gaps I hadn't realised I had.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I was refurbishing aircraft interiors when I decided to finish my degree in Fire Protection. My hours at work were running anywhere from 40-70 hours a week and I was juggling 12-20 credit hours per quarter. It wasn't easy and eventually something HAD to break. I made the choice that school HAD to be finished and I quit my job (they wouldn't work with me around my school schedule). I didn't regret quitting my job as I wasn't payed all that much anyway. Not much advice except that once you decide you can juggle owning a business and school and you make both of those vitally important to you, you'll find a way to make it work. I hope that you don't have the added pressures of familial obligations on top of all that. If you do, your significant other better be VERRRRRYYYY understanding.
Money not found! A)bort, R)etry, D)eclare Bankruptcy
Yep; it was something like 2 years before I got moderator privileges for the first time, but now I get them every month or so, I guess. Now if only I could find posts that were worth rating up but weren't already +5... :-)
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Since you already have a successful career, may I suggest that you study something that you like to learn more about rather than just go for a degree is CS?
Maybe take a bunch of liberal arts courses (music, theater, arts, theory, history, economics, political science, a foriegn language) and see if any of those agree with you.
I'll point to myself as an example: I write software for a HMO in Boston, but my undergrad degree is in Japanese Poltitical Science (my url above does read polsci after all). Why? Because I wanted to learn other things besides computers, and this gave me a well rounded education which helps me out with the ultimate goal: problem solving.
My master degree will be in CS when I bother to finish it.
III.IIVIVIXIIVIVIIIVVIIIIXVIIIXIIIIIIIIVIIIIVVIII
Since about 1995, I've been working full time (at least 30 hours a week, for the past 4-5 years, 40+ hours) and going to school part time (3-6 credits per semester, plus 3-4 during the summer), and it's worked out fairly well for me. It takes a long time to get a degree this way, but as long as you're enrolled at least part time every semester, your credits won't expire. Even if you only take one class a semester, every semester is progress towards a degree, and if/when you DO decide to go back full time, you'll be that much further ahead.
I went through the school the "normal" way. I went to high school then to college and now I am working. I did work 20-30hrs/week while in college and as a consequence I had very little social life(outside class that is) while there, but to me that was ok. I wish I could have just kept going and got a masters in cs, but I needed the money and had to move onto making some ;) Now, I am trying to make and save enough money so that I can go back to school and work part time.
Some questions I think you should ask yourself is why do you want to go back to school? If you are running your own business successfully will getting more schooling help? Perhaps you can concentrate on growing your business to the point where you can sell it or have enough free time to go back to school.
Just remember that while in school you only get out what you put in. The more time that you can put into learning by reading, and conversing with other students/teachers the more enjoyable experience you will have.
I am with the don't do it crowd. The world is so caught up in the degree mind set. What they really should be concentrating on is Knowledge. Beleieve me I work with plenty of Morons who have degrees. In the Computer field there is practically nothing that degree oriented schools can teach you that a good O'reilly, Sams, Wrox, etc... book can't and usually the teach yourself method is much quicker and comprehensive since its almost all real world use as you learn it. If we could the world to assign less value to degrees we would probably have more competent people in many computer field job roles. The price of admission would be to display competence...really the technonly field should be more like plumbing, and electrical work. Apprenticeships and such....
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
I have juggled day jobs and night school for years. Is simply surviving a measure of success? While it's possible to keep up the day work and studies, it seems the family and house keep always come in last. Those who love you are expected to understand and hang in there, and help out where possible, but there are bound to be difficult bumps along the way. If you are not married and have no kids, you are 10 steps better along than a lot of others who do this.
Also, eat well, take vitamins, drink plenty of water, and stay away from drugs and alchohol - a sure fire killer for any endeavor.
Hey, I'm a network administrator for a small power company (an REMC in Columbus, IN.. if you know the area). I also attend a community college. I go about 13 hours a week to school and I work about 20, the real trick with getting everything to work out is just getting the right amount of hours for each. Sounds like if you already own the company finding the good balance of work + school will be pretty easy.
I know how you feel, you want it - It might not be that important, but you just want to finish. I did it, and then went back again for a graduate degree. I just had to suck it up, reduce my free time, and get it done. You'll be so happy once you are finished...
>In the REAL WORLD, IT experience is difficult to
>*measure*.
Definitely.
>In the REAL WORLD, A Cisco or MCSE etc
>certification gives more bang for the buck than any
>possible college degree.
I disagree.
I can't speak to the Cisco certs, but I speak from personal experience when I say the MCSE is crap.
Quick! What's the maximum allowed length of a thicknet ethernet cable??!?!?!?!?!?
Clover Kicker, BCS, CNE, MCSE
First you have to be extremely organized. I filled my Palm calendar and task list with all tasks related to school, work and HOME (my wife doesn't like when I miss dinner dates :). You need to make sure nothing falls through the cracks. Establish a system and follow it to the letter!
Next, it doesn't hurt to have an understanding boss. You are lucky; you are your own boss so there is no negotiation. I have a very understanding boss that let's me flex-out early for classes and assignments. This is a must.
Finally, find a buddy. I am doing this with one other guy from my office. It helps a lot. I am also making friends at school. If I have to miss class for work reasons, your friends can get you through material you missed. They also function as a back up to your organization system.
I can tell you this much for certain, it is a great feeling to finally finish and walk across the stage and finally get your degree.
Best of luck to you!
They tell you how easy it is to get a university degree for your lifetime's work and achievements. I keep wondering what I got my PhD for...
Googlefight "Slashdot Troll" against "BSD is dying" 303:229. BSD thus cant die.
Not sure where you live, but if you are in western Europe, you can always sign up with the Open University.
:)
I am getting a bachelors degree in computer and mathematical science myself right now, while working for a tech company as a software engineer. This is working out pretty well, although I am only studying half time.
I think it would have been very difficult for me to do it any other way. I mean, I don't think I could have handled full time uni and work at the same time. One of my co-workers tried to do it, and after 1,5 years he quit. Basically, he just couldn't keep it up and in the end he choose uni over work.
My advice to you, try to study on distance, and don't throw yourself at it too hard. I mean, start by studying half time. If it goes well, then try full time. Good luck
That is usually the exception to the rule, especially when dealing with IT industry. To many people assume that because in IT you can do that, other professions are the same way.
Do you think anyone is going to hire you if you have never taking an accounting course, that just some experience running a lemonade stand is going to count? How about management, experience counts alot but a degree is often needed to get your foot in the door in the first place, noone is going to consider you for management just because, they need something to back their decision up.
Face it, IT is alot like manual labor, it is just putting your nose to the grindstone and just work. Someone willing to put in the time can make something of themselves, especially a smart person, but they are not going to turn into the CEO of a big company, you need that degree
No back on the subject at hand, if you really are looking to get a degree, ask yourself why, you have been to school twice and what ever reasons you had for going to school then were not enough to keep you there. You really need to understand why your going to school instead of is it possible. If you have a good enough reason, you can make it work
The folks at NSA might disagree with you - and by the way... they know all of your dirty little secrets....
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
I am currently in my senior year and running a VERY small online business. Though it isn't brick-and-mortar, it still requires time and maintenance, two things which I've been severely lacking in these past few months.
Running a business has been more hassle than I wanted, though not more than I expected. I just wanted to not go through life without having done most everything; now I can check off Sole Propietorship!
If you go back to school, make it your top priority. It isn't necessary to be successful (don't let anyone tell you differently), but once you're in, you really should make the most of every credit hour and everything else needs to take a backseat for a while. Remember, it's not forever. Okay, I'm done..
Forget the University of Phoenix... however, there are some good colleges offering distance education via the internet. A good one is Southern New Hampshire University ... www.snhu.edu.
There are many advantages to internet based distance education... the big one being that you can attend your classes when your schedule allows. Being an entrepreneur, I don't think you'll have a problem with the self dicipline required for such a task.
Take 2, maybe 3 courses per term and it makes a nice balance between career, living, and eventually getting your degree.
Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
I am only a dozen or so weeks away from finally finishing my degree, which I have been working on as I work full time for a little over four years. I work full time (45-50 hours a week) during the day and study at night. My employer has a decent tuition reimbursement plan, which I have taken full advantage of.
:) I average 35 hours of study per week, which I'm motivated to do, because it costs $275-300 per week to be in school. (company pays approx. 35% of that)
Holding a steady girlfriend is difficult to impossible, but school ranks higher on my priority list, so they have to understand that. I now have 5 years of real-world experience in tech, along with the degree, and because I have a carefully balanced schedule, my co-workers and boss get the impression that I'm super-organized.
It IS a big commitment, but I wasn't willing to sacrifice the experience while I sat on campus somewhere making little or no money. Now, I would not want to be graduating and trying to find my FIRST real-world tech job. In contrast, I have a very solid, reasonably-paying position where I am respected for my work, and 4-5 years of experience to boot.
Don't expect to sleep more than 6-7 hours a night, don't expect to be able to squander more than one evening out of 7, and don't expect everyone else to understand why you love this type of torture, but it's fun in its own way I think.
It's very good experience just to make it work, plus the education...go for it!
The most brilliant person that I knew in college (and there were a lot of brilliant people there) was my freshman roommate. He would go to bed at 1 pm and wake up at 6 am everyday. In the meantime I was going to bed whenever I felt like it an waking up when I could/had to.
Lasers Controlled Games!
Welcome to the world of higher education. Balancing these sorts of issues is what all of us full time work/school people have been doing for years. Yes, it's very possible, and very satisfying. Don't listen to the ones trying to convince you not to attend college, as most are just trying to justify their own lack of motivation. Your business may flourish, or it may deteriorate, but your education will never leave you. It will never lose value like a certification, and is very useful when dealing with businesses. As for myself, I work 50 hrs a week, and take a full load in graduate school working on a MS/MIS. Sure, it's very painful at first with a schedule that goes from 8am-10pm at night sometimes, but believe me, you get used to it after awhile. Go for it!
I am running my own IT company, Coldfire Studios, LLC (http://www.coldfirestudios.com) , and I finished THREE degrees in 7 years while functioning as the CEO of my company. Of course, I was only running the company for the last 3.5 years of my schooling ... I had all of my electives done before I started my company. I don't know if I could have taken all of the boring electives while running my company though. The electives took more time than any of my Math or Computer Science courses (I have a Ugrad in Math, a Ugrad in CS, and a Master's in CS). I also have a full-time girlfriend (now engaged), who was very understanding of my situation. That was VERY huge!
.... you will forget a birthday, exam, meeting, or something without it ... I GUARENTEE IT!!! During the times that you won't be ale to participate in the business, besure to have LOTS of work for your employees. Make sure that you have all projects planned out and that you have an alternative contact person for any PR events or situations that may arrise. You MUST remember that you can NOT do everything yourself during this time.
... there is NO WAY AROUND IT!!! Make arrangements to share notes with people or to do the "I'll attend Mondays, you go Wednesdays" deal .... and keep each other up to date as to exam dates and homework due dates. Be sure to get into LARGE classes when possible .... you'll get less homework or easier homework (profs don't like grading or making assignments for large classes ... exams will also be MUCH easier)
... it will NOT be easy! I had several days where I didn't sleep ... I went over 50 hours without sleeping several times during my senior year of my CS degree .... I took ALL 8 of the senior level courses in 2 semsters ... so if I can do that, you can strech it out over 4 years!
... all I had to do was monitor a few computer labs, take care of some servers and do system backups ... and that paid for my grad school .... which was kinda nice. However, having partners in this situation ws nice. They all were in school at the time as well, so we were all understanding of each other's position. But having partners that can take over for you during key periods is essential!! As I stated earlier, you can't do it ALONE!!!!
... I'll be more than willing to lend ya a hand if I can.
... but don't!!! You'll want to sleep .... DON'T!!! (well, sleep a TON on the weekends) You'll need LOTS of Mountain Dew. If you're not a high energy person with a TON of motitation, don't do this! You already have a company ... so don't loose what you have ... but having a degree in hand is a NICE safety net. In fact, I am currently working (full-time) for a University ... AND I run my company in the evenings. I still work 14 hours everyday (except Friday ... I take Friday nights off) and I work for my company on Sunday as well ...
.... after you do this routine for a while, you will have a hard time adjusting to "normal" life .... I get bored VERY easily now if I am not doing something CONSTANTLY!!! Working this much is like being on drugs .... once you pop, you can't stop! (just a friendly warning of what you might be doing to yourself ... it took me a year of people yelling at me to slow down before I recognized what kind of a problem I had ... have)
.... you WILL burn yourself out if you don't have a little fun sometimes ... and you might end up single ... the GF should be understanding, but she probably won't put up with not seeing you except on Xmas and during the summer). But remember, keep your eye on the prize ... IT IS WORTH IT!!!! I am seeing the light at the end of the tunnel already .... I WILL retire before I am 50!!!!
....
Karma: Terrible (mostly affected by really bad posts you have made and a really bad sence of humor. Poor spelling ability doesn't help either)
First, learn to deligate and plan! There will be a week here and there where you may not be able to spend ANY time on company stuff because of school due dates, so PLAN for them! Of course, there are also many weeks of school where there is nothing assigned or due, so be sure to use them WISELY! Also, GET A PALM PILOT or some sort of organizer that can remind you CONSTANTLY of EVERYTHING you have to do
Second, MAKE FRIENDS IN YOUR CLASSES!!! You're going to need to skip some classes
I won't lie to you
Actually, I started my company while I was in school because I had too much free time. It was also nice to work for the University for extra money while I did work for my company
If you have any further questions on this or how to juggle these routines, email me at adavis@coldfirestudios.com
BTW: It does take a tremendous amount of energy and commitment. You'll want to quit
Speaking of working 14 hrs per day
Also, when possible, leave time on the weekends for relaxation and fun (every other weekend at the least)
Just my $0.02
HallmarkOrnaments.Com
But the degrees aren't as overrated as all the various tech certifications... how many of you have worked with someone with certifications that still had no clue about their systems?
Personally, I work for a university, so I get to take classes, and they're rather flexible about my taking classes in the middle of the day, so long as it doesn't affect a production service.
... but hey, if you find out at the beginning, you can always drop the class, and not have to pay the full price, normally.
First off, remember that your schedule is going to have to follow a school schedule. I can't burn my comp/vacation time without having to consider how it affects my classwork. I can't take it over the summer, as that's when our crunch time for changing out systems is. As you're not working for a university, the summer issue shouldn't be as bad for you.
Anyway, back to the point -- go and talk to people from the college(s) you're interested in. Some might let you test out of classes (for a fee), and some are more understanding than others when you have to miss a class. Some schools specifically cater to what they call 'adult education'. Look for the ones with a good variety of night classes, if nothing else.
Talk to your professors at the beginning of the semester, and let them know what your situation is. Even just a little 'I might have to run in the middle of the class' is nice warning to give them. Some professors will be understanding, and well, others are complete pricks
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
I went to college, and paid for it as I went (expensive too). Working usually 30-35 hours a week and having an intense class load wasn't too difficult, but I had to make some concessions.
Not that I suggest it, but I was able to carefully lower my attendance in some classes as long as I understood the material.
During most weeks this wasn't a big problem (5 classes and work) becuase I got classes down to 2 days a week. Some weeks when you have all those projects due would really be taxing though.
I ended up doing the tradtional CS, starting a project the day it's due. Fortunately I was good enough that my outside class work was good enough to counter some of my lacking attendance.
Altogether, you have to plan ahead of time, pick an appropriate schedule (I always had 2 classes that I knew I wouldn't need instruction in), and work hard.
Good luck...
Tons, and I would Lump the Certs right in with the degree's...
I know lots of paper MCSE's who look at an actual NT/2000 Box and don't even know where to begin if the thing is down and in need of recovery....
Its really sad....
Again its real world, applied knowledge that should count, and the skill to use it that should matter....
Disclaimer: I do hold several Certs Including MCSE4/2000. I achived these for two reasons, I already knew what I was doing and my employeer paid for exams(they made it a goal on my goals sheet) as well as cut me a $100 check for each exam I passed, and a $750 bonus for achiving the final certs.
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
I worked ~20 hours a week and went to school full time. I discovered that I could not take more than 13 credits a quarter without failing classes. They kept pushing me to tkae that many hours, but I couldn't do it. My GPA suffered as a result. Do not let them push you.
You already have a good job, so don't rush college. (I was working fast food, so I needed to push). Take one class at a time, and don't worry about the degree taking 15 years to complete. Spend your time in the one class you do take wisely. Study hard, get As. You can get by on a C, but people judge you based on your GPA once you have the degree, and mine was not where it should have been.
How much do you need to work you buisness? It is really easy for someone in school to neglect their work when they one the company. Don't fall for that trap, you could find yourself without a degree and money when your buiseness failed. Sure you can bring it back, but that means leaving school. On the other hand, don't be afraid to cut your buisness back a little to give school more time.
I took me 12 years to get my BS in Comp Sci. Even though I had 8 years with IBM, the moment I got my degree my resume was accepted over and over as opposed to barely ever.
The best advice I ever got during that stretch was this, "You only have to get a C in your class, but you must get an A at work!".
That takes a lot of the pressure off.
Finally, I plan to return to college for a masters degree (completed in my early 40s), and again be able to easily remarket myself.
"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein
I'm currently working on my MBA. I have a full-time job, though I try to keep it at a straight 40 hours a week; I'm sure that running a 3 year old business probably requires more than that, though.
On the other hand, I have a wife and two small children. Any time outside of work that I'm spending on school I'm spending away from the kids, which is very hard.
I'm in an evening degree program, and I take two classes a semester (sometimes one, depending on the difficulty level). There are a lot of evening programs out there, even for the undergrad level. Some universities also offer accelerated executive programs, where you go to all-day Saturday classes instead of evenings; I imagine that that's more popular at the graduate level, though, as most executives would have undergrad degrees.
I'll be wrapping up in another couple of semesters. How is the business degree going to merge with my tech background? That's a question left to be answered (I aspire to be a tech entrepreneur). However, the experience of the program has been tremendous, and it's been worth the effort and expense for the knowledge I've gleaned. Has it been tough? Very. Has it been long? Yes. But, you just have to make yourself into the kind of person who sets long-term goals and keeps focused on those. Running your own business, it's very easy to start thinking only short-term. But if you can't answer the question of who that degree is going to help you become, and in a way that's meaningful to you, then you have no motivating factor to focus on.
What is your motivation for doing this? Make more money? Glean more knowledge? Keeping up with the former high school chums? Feeling a sense of inadequacy when you hire somebody who has more degrees than a protractor? Expanding your business? Changing careers? I'm not saying that I know what your motivation is, but if it's something shallow and reactionary, then yeah, there's no way that that will carry you through. You need to look at how this is going to mold you into the person you want to become and how it will benefit you long term.
And you need to make it clear to everyone who places demands on your time that you are committed to this, so if you can't go grab a brew or stay an extra hour at work, that's why.
No one I've talked to that's gotten their degree after they've gotten their career started has regretted it.
And that includes Steven Spielberg
But you have to get it done. Believe me, Even if you've run your own business or are a consultant. If you interview (as an employee not a contractor) gets to the point where they ask about your education and they found you havent completed 'any' higher education it will make all you experience appear less signifigant (they'll think you're lying and exaggerating). I'm finishing a BS in computer engineering, taking 3 classes during the day and working 20-25 hours a week as a programmer (pays well and low stress). There are no night schools for this curriculum in this part of the state so I'm stuck going to school with kiddies 6 years younger than me (annoying!).
:-). I never attended class but the professors where available to answer questions.
:-). Sure it's a comprimise but the consequences of not getting a degree while you're still young (and still have the motivation to learn) are worse.
:-). Friends, We'll they probably work too though try and get out of the house atleast once or twice a month.
First and foremost you must be disciplined. No fucking off and playing quake for an hour when you come home from work or even watching your favorite TV shows (tape em). School 'is' work, treat it as such and consider your HW and studying as an investment that will make you $$$. If you're running your own business then you should be bright enough to learn on your own. Take a few hours on the weekend to get ahead in the textbooks. If you can learn the books way of doing things and figure out what the author implies you may not even need to go to class. I did Calc 3 and Diff Eq this way. I was cool with the professors so he let me sign up for the courses, take the tests, and I got an A
#2) You shouldn't be working more than 20 hours in a during a school week. If you can't make enough money to support yourself and go to school, move back home to your parents (if possible) or move into the dorms. If you're worried aboutr having to roomate with someone jsut tell em (if you're over 21) that you plan to have beer in your room and because of that, no minors can live with you
#3) Get some SLEEP, Atleast 7 hours. Also learn to eat well and if you lack the time to prepare food that has proper nutrition then use a supplement (like ensure).
#4) Know your professors. They respect working students, especially working adults. The better they know you the more willing they may be to make a comprimise for you or even a favor.
#5) free time and women (or signfigant other). Both are comprimised and secondary to everything mentioned above. Don't have time for a GF?, then learn how to "hook up". College is a meat market for casual sex, It's the only plus I have being an older man but not too old
Finally, I've seen some posts pointing out that you mentioned a "lack of interest" and went on to say because of that you you dont need a degree etc etc. Let me tell you something. I nor any manager who knows what he's doing will not hire someone "who doesnt finish what he started". You can always find people to start a project. Finding someone that can stick with it and finish is a whole lot more valuable. That's what it means to have a 4 year degree.
Peter
www.alphalinux.org
I plan on working full time, taking on 2-3 classes a semester. Is it going to be hard? You betcha. Even with a full time girlfriend that requires overtime
Get you degree while your young. Thinking about dropping out to start the next whiz-bang company? Can it for the next 4-6 years and concentrate on school. You'll be glad you did.
Thought the point of college was to meet people, have fun, drink beer, play wiffleball, stay up all night, go on road trips, nap all afternoon stay up all night, play sports, watch crap TV in the dorm lounge while playing pool or ping pong, then cram like hell to finish papers. Sure beats working for a living.
I ran a family business for 18 years; I went back to school (DeVry) 7 years ago and received my Bachelors degree. It is difficult and time consuming, (don't plan on having any sort of life outside of work and school) but if you are persistent, and gut it out, the reward of the diploma will be worth the effort. Even though I had been in the business world for that long I still learned some new things that experience alone would not have taught me, and besides you can use your professors as a sort of free consultant to bounce your business ideas off.
The sum of our knowledge today becomes the reference point of our ignorance tomorrow.
Stay with the job. A degree is a worthless piece of paper. Hell, I should know, I have 2 of them and still can't find a job.
There isn't much advice I can give you other then budget your time, make time for school, make sure your employeer knows and is willing to give you that extra time. And just work your butt off, there is no "easy" way to juggle school and work. You are either going to be workng late, or working early (going to school before or after work) or working or going to school all weekend. Depending on how many courses your are taking and your work scheduale you probably won't have any free time. Just work/school/work/school. I doubt this helps, but it is what got me through.
I think the original poster was referring to the fact that programmers who graduate without work experience tend not to know very much that is usefull. Personally, I will not hire somebody without any actual work experience, except as an intern. Conversely, it is quite rare to actually require a degree, usually a couple of years of actual work is acceptable in its stead.
I'm a signature virus. Please copy me to your signature so I can replicate.
I am 24 and have been in and out of school for the past 7 years. The whole internet bubble fiasco pulled me out at 21, promising me cash out the ass. But as we all saw, that didn't last. With my experience, I have begun a small freelance shop doing all types of web, computer, and graphics related work. I also began school again. A degree is something that you can't lose unlike a job or a business.
Business has been increasing and it has a definite affect on school. To be honest there needs to be a balance. I am taking 12 credits this semester, two comp-sci courses and physics.
I have to admit, when I was just out of high school, I partied way too much in college. My view of college back then was that is was a place to drink until losing conscience and hopefully waking up next to a hot chick (never happened). Needless to say school suffered from that behavior.
Now on the other hand, I am doing really well. It is probably because after all my work experience, I know how to budget my time, and take my studies seriously. I truly feel that I enjoy school now. I am learning all types of things that work can't really teach you. All of my self-taught skills such as programming, networking, and graphics are being enhanced by the theoretical material I am learning in school.
If you have a business, don't let it go because of school. There is a way you can do both, but you just have to work just as hard at both.
All of my friends have graduated. All of my siblings. All of my cousins. Now I am on the way. This is my last year and now I am finally on the home stretch. It really feels good.
-Jay Amster
http://www.2genisues.com
Rutgers University
amtron amtronx@yahoo.com
Most people talk about options, but having a degree will open up more doors than you think. If you really want to have options, you can also look outside your own country. I am an American working in Montreal, Canada, and I would not have been able to get the work permit to work here if it had not been for my education. The company didn't care if I had a degree or not, but the government of Canada did. Getting a degree means you have just opened up the doors on a lot of jobs you never though possible. Don't think that a company will want to hire you even if you don't have a degree because of your skill set, in fact, legally they might not be able to.
Jason Lotito
Its very hard but you have to set your schedule outside class hours and even including study time. I noticed that including study time into my schedule on fixed days really helped me a lot.
The hardest part was trying to have a life outside school and work.
Most of all I make it very clear to my coworkers and boss that my time during these periods are off limits. PERIOD! they can't force you to work in these hours.
goodluck.
"If a show of teeth is not enough, bite
The next generation of person will support Familial Multithreading (TM). Important family and GF matters will be automatically time-managed to prevent conflicts. Advanced memory management will also prevent those awkward moments when she comes up and says "Do you know what today is?..."
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
I got my degree this way. I started in day school (like you) but after two years I decided to work during the day and get my degree at night (Drexel U).
For the next five years I went to night school all year round before I ended up with two BS degrees. It can be done but it's a lot of work. Now I'm working on a comp sci master's degree at NC State and holding down a full time job. Sometimes the courses are interesting and occasionaly even fun. However, most of the time it's just a test of your discipline.
I don't regret it for one minute. You'll be busy all the time. You'll spend years knowing that you have assignments due soon. It's a drag. However, getting your degree is critical in this profession. In a decade, it will be odd to find somebody without a degree. Also, with in influx of H1B employees who started with a student visa, you'll find more and more people with advanced degrees.
I was talking to a guy who's father is an Electrical Engineer. When he got into the profession decades ago when a degree was optional. As times passed he knew that he did not qualify for his current job. He knew that if he was laid off he'd be out of luck. Also, his co-workers looked at him a little differently because he didn't have a formal education.
Comp Sci is in the same position now. You can get by without a degree. However, it won't stay that way.
Do it, you need to.
Vanguard
That which does not kill me only makes me whinier
Seriously, AC is right. Do what you have to and get out of there, it's too expensive. Contact some headhunters and start doing a region-wide or even nation-wide job search. No, I don't think you'll pick up 86k again just being a sysadmin (unless you've got serious programming skills), but I don't think that 45-50k is unreasonable for 7 years' experience. Sure beats the 12-14k that McDonalds will pay you, and the cost of living will probably be much cheaper.
The problem, as you stated, is that your area is flooded with overqualified candidates. It's not going to get any better anytime soon. Go someplace where the competition isn't so bad; every city in the US needs sysadmins. Like AC said, set up a 5-7 year plan and start working it. Get that degree so you can go back to Silicon Valley.
Why don't you mod up some posts that are erroneously marked troll or offtopic? Usually these are bogus moderations, but once modded to zero they rarely bounce back.
There is a huge need for moderators to repair other moderators' damage, if you catch my drift.
As my father lik@(munch munch)...
That's what I'm doing right now... Talk about balancing work and school!
My Karma was at 49, then they switched to words. All that work for nothing!
I used the same word in my response, 'discipline'. It's not always going to be fun but a degree will be required in a decade or so. All you need to do is look at the other engineering professions and you'll see where our's is headed. Vanguard
That which does not kill me only makes me whinier
This sounds like sane advice -- much better than I thought he'd get.
:-)
I mean, asking for time management advice from people blowing time reading Slashdot?
May we never see th
If you go for an on-line program, make sure it is from a bona-fide accredited university - no degree mills. Also keep in mind that your instructors are used to teaching "regular" courses and dealing with full time students much younger (and more naive than you). They will make unreasonable demands of your time, and many will treat you in the condescending fashion notorious at universities (and distasteful to anyone with actual professional accomplishments)
Real world experience makes understanding the concepts much easier - you may be given some abstract topic and think, "oh yeah, I worked on something like that on project XYZ" while the topic will be entirely unfamiliar to your typical 19 year old with no real work experience.
Last point - if you are running your own company, you will have some time flexibility. If you are an employee, make sure your company buys off on the time commitment. There's nothing like having to drop a class because you employer sends you to Timbuktu a week before final exams.
"dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope"
heh...
...
i did that, graduated last january...
first thing i did with the free time was plan my wedding, a full time proposition in and of itself...
now... hrm... i'm starting to try to figure out what i would do with all this "freetime"... i did the work/school thing for like 4 years, and well... it was tough and i had no time...
i've got a lot more time now... and i'm just getting to teh "what do I want to do" stage...
thinking about music... or art classes... i dunno... something that doesnt involve typing
... hi bingo
That said, I would recommend going back and getting a degree to anyone. Of course, I would be a professional student if I could afford it. If there is any way to horde your money so you don't have to work while going to school, do it. Live on ramen noodles for a year, go to the library and read for entertainment, find a good employee to run your business while you go to school (of course you'll have to watch that carefully), and then just move into a dorm, apply for financial aid/scholarships, and live a real college student life (my wife vetoed that for me... no dorm). Anyway, I wish you the best of luck.
There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity.
Most Universities have no way to support someone who is a full-time employee and a full-time student. They will schedule all the classes during the day when you can't make it.
;)
My wife is currently getting her second BS in Computer and Information Science while she works full-time through the University of Maryland University College. They are a leader in online education, and you can take all your classes for this degree online.
Next semester she's taking Unix Systems Administration, and after that I'm going to give her root and let her admin our servers
Why would you want a degree if you already have a tech career? I went to college and got a degree in the hopes of getting a career, and that has not happened. It seems companies only want experience, which I cannot get. Additionally, if you look at Monster.com or any other job search engine, there are largely senior level jobs available. Why? Why don't people from within the company move up into those senior positions, and if they do, what happens to their entry level position? Is it eliminated, or do they recruit using other means?
I suppose it depends on the area you study, but I would focus on certifications. I've done countless interviews lately and none of them are impressed with my Bachelors degree, but all ask what certifications I have (which is none, as I spent that last 4 years studying liberal arts and other worthless shit to get an MIS degree, and now I don't have any money to take the exams because no one will hire me).
I would imagine a CS or Engineering degree might come in handy. Perhaps accounting, as there always seems to be jobs in accounting. I got a degree in MIS and couldn't get a job to save my soul. Sometimes I think it actually hurts me to have a degree (ie, I'm either underqualified or "overqualified", whatever that means, but never qualified.)
Something to think about: Before I got my Bachelor's degree, I was NEVER turned down for a job. Since I have gotten my degree, I've been turned down for close to a hundred interviews and jobs.
In summary, a Bachelors degree was a lot of work, costed a lot of money and has gotten me NOWHERE. If you must get a degree, don't waste your time on anything less than a CS degree.
what if you make enough money, don't care to make more, and are appalled at the thought of ever setting foot in another place where you pay people to take up your free time with useless shite?
I've always thought of my tech career as just a day job anyway. It's a good-paying day job, and I have no interest in furthering my formal education. One of these days I'll be in business outside of the tech sector and much happier anyway, it's just a matter of straightening out my finances first.
I work full time and I'm completing my second degree part-time. (My first degree was as a full-time student.) Once that is done I intend to obtain a Masters part-time as well. Clearly, I like school.
Last semester I was taking 2 courses part-time, planning my wedding, working 60+ hours a week F/T and house-hunting. It was a crazy schedule to begin with, and then when you add a psycho I had to work with and my parents driving me nuts over the wedding plans and 0 vacation time (saving it up for the honeymoon) and I nearly went insane.
I still got through it, sanity intact, so here's what you need.
Determination and Motivation.
You've said before that you've tried out school and then quit. You have to really want to do this. When everything gets hectic and crazy, the thought of quitting may look appealing. After all, in University, you're paying to work really hard -- at work, it's the other way around. Plus, when your livelihood demands more time then usual, it can be hard to push that aside to do an assignment, or keep up with the reading.
But I really love what I'm studying, and even the required non-major courses (some of which I never thought I'd enjoy) appeal to me, so the idea of quitting school never crossed my mind. (Quitting work, on the other hand...) And because I enjoy it, it's easier for me to make time for school.
Discipline.
So imagine you finish work-work for the day, and you're exhausted, and the last thing you want to do is read a textbook. Will you put it off until the next day? Procrastination is a slippery slope -- when you're tired, it's so easy to put things off, and then suddenly, you're pulling all-nighters. Now for me, all-nighters are usually very productive, but pulling too many of those is increasingly draining as you get older. It's only been 6 years since I was a F/T frosh, and already I can't sustain the same low-sleep schedule that I could then. Now I have to force myself to do things on a regular and sane schedule, get enough sleep, eat properly -- all these things help.
You've been able to start and succeed at your own business, which says that you probably have all of these within you. But the big question for you to answer is -- are you willing to apply the same determination, motivation and discipline to school?
I can spell. I just can't type.
Speaking from experience, I believe that if one wishes to successfully complete a degree, one must make it their top priority. Full time college [5+ courses at high level] leave little time for anything else unless you wish your grades to suffer. I myself put a business in hibernation so that I could concentrate on the schoolwork, which is nearly equivalent in time, energy, and stress of a full time job. Good luck!
I misread the headline at first, I thought it was On "Balancing Beer & College...".
Which let me tell you, is a very very difficult situation to be in, probably more so than this career you speak of.
There is a major difference between attending college and getting a degree. When I went to college after High School, I went to meet people, drink, and attend enough classes to get a degree. I changed my major several times and had no interest in any of the General Education (GE) classes the first 2 years.
The last 4 (yes, four) years is where I started to enjoy myself and have an interest in the subject matter. I attended classes because I wanted to learn.
I went back for my MBA because I was interested in the subject and I didn't have mindless GE classes to take. I did not go back for the piece of paper. I went back for the learning experience. The day I started the program, I found out that my wife was pregnant. I continued on through the birth of my son (conveniently timed during a semester break) because of my interest and the support of my family. I also left an easy job to start my own consulting firm which I have grown over the years. I continued with school because the courses interested me and were relevant to my life.
If interest is the problem, find a way to exempt out of the boring GE classes and work on the ones that interest you. Do not load up your schedule with an entire semester of crap. If you must take that lower division math course, find another course that helps you retain your interest during that semester. If you find yourself avoiding the material, find a way to make it interesting. Relate it to something in your life. Have fun with it. The degree is not the goal, learning is the goal. The degree will follow from that.
IF YOU ARE NOT LEARNING, YOU ARE NOT GROWING. You are only growing older.
Good Luck,
--Keith
I'm pretty much in the same boat... currently I'm taking a BSc. in Physics, balacing work and running a small business... I'm working because the business isn't large enough to provide a truely stable income, but nonetheless I know the feeling that most other people here seem to express... It's a rough go... but every year you will find yourself looking back and being proud of what you accomplished... at least I have and honestly that's what keeps me motivated... a sense of pride and honour in what I have accomplished/will accomplish...
;-)
the biggest problem I have found is how do you manage the major conflicts... realistically business doesn't stop because you have a test... and a test doesn't stop because you have a business... a job works a differently in that it isn't your head on the chopping block everytime, but in your situation you have to be the go-to-guy for your business and that more than anything is what is going to throw you... managing a schedule is an absolute necessity... do everything in set time periods as much as possible... routine will keep you on track and focused on what you need to do/have to do... last year (3rd year for me) I found myself losing routine because I was moving my schedule around so much and then I discovered I was overbooking myself a lot of times... the more you keep everything in a stringent pattern the less likely you are to have fall apart at the seams... albeit factor in some lag time into EVERYTHING you can (I try to space everything by about a 1/2 hour and I take work/homework with me to fill that time, if I get it)... because assignments always take longer than you thought and meetings run longer than they should, and everything always breaks when it shouldn't... and if stuff doesn't go wrong then lo and behold you will have free time
and as I said you need to balance the major conflicts, at some points you will have to drop something you just need to prepare for those decisions and not look back... I am willing to miss small tests/assignments for business emergencies, but major tests/major assignments come before those same emergencies... make sure your are comfortable with sacrificing both, because I assure you it will happen, and as a result your marks/bottom line will suffer...
as someone else said (and I'm sure a couple other people said, I didn't read all the posts) get sleep, and eat... these are essential to your survival... you need to ensure that you have both of these otherwise it becomes way easier to become distracted and then you find that you don't have the motivation to complete stuff you need to get done...
best of luck with it...
Hire me and you can have one of my degrees:
English
History
Music
Communications
And if you act now you can have one of my certifications:
CNA
CNE
CLP
SUN
This
I know this is a little late, but if you're smart enough, you'll read all these comments for good advice. Many of which are chaff.
First question to ask yourself: Why do you want a degree?
I think the only answer that would seem justifiable is "hot college aged co-eds". If you have a company that is "okay" (and that better mean "making money"), a degree does not help your career.
If however, your company is bleeding cash like a stuck pig, and you are looking for a job, getting your degree seems reasonable. Unfortunately, the time you spend in University is going to further detract from your bleeding company and it is going to go out of business even faster.
So, if you are currently living off the proceeds of your company's revenue, your best career move is to spend your time building your revenue stream. If you build that stream to the point where you can sell the company or "retire", then, by all means, go get that degree, so you can seem smarter in the eyes of others.
If you don't care what others think, screw it. Calculus is not going to help your bottom line. Neither is knowing how to write a compiler.
But I was burned out for years thereafter. Fortunately I'd made enough money that burnout wasn't a problem.
I am currently working for a tech company and attending school to complete a BS degree program. I have went for a lighter course load and a (one to two classes at most) and created a schedule to split my time between work tasks and school tasks (at least on paper) I also have adjusted my social life a bit so I have more time for school. I have been in school for about a year and a half and although its tough I feel creating a plan before I started was easier than trying once I am in school.
I withdrew the first time from lack of interest and literally just left to persue my career as a PHP monkey for a company several friends of mine were starting. Now, I understand your company is doing well, but let me tell you--if it doesn't do well, you're really going to regret not having your degree. I'm 20 and I just moved back to the college town I originally started Uni in and I'm hoping they're going to let me in without a struggle because of my poor GPA. The company I went for was doing fine for a good while, but then steadily became taking turns for the worse, and eventually I was laid off and because of how my sneaky boss worked things was unellegable for unemployement or anything. In the market right now, it's a real bitch to find a job (at least where I am, I'm still unemployed and about out of savings, feh) especially without a degree. Juggling full time work and night school is a pain--I left--but I promise you if you keep with it I'm sure it'll make for a great backup plan. Besides, you're the evil boss.. aren't you supposed to have slave workers like me to do work for you while you go to school? heh :D
-----
jonathan barket
Hey...I work at a respectable job.
I work in the music department at Barnes and Noble.
Nor have I smoked pot since 10th grade.
If you want to get a degree so you can tell people you have a degree, working and going to school at the same time is a feasible approach. Pick a night class or a distance learning program that will certify what you already know without actually challenging you, so your future employers can tick off the "has a degree" checkbox.
If you want an education because it's become important to you to gain knowledge for knowledge's sake and not for the piece of paper that comes with it, strongly consider going back to school only when you can focus on doing so without significant distractions. You need to make your education a priority if you're serious about it, not just another thing crammed into your day.
Like many other posters on this topic, I was smart but unmotivated and directionless coming out of high school. I went to college because that's what I was supposed to do and was miserable as a result. After changing majors 3 or 4 times and never finding something I was interested in I was eventually asked to leave.
I got lucky, career-wise, founding two of my own companies and riding the dot-com wave to success and money. But over time I began to realize and value what I missed by not getting a degree. I finally realized what I was passionate about and found a direction in which to apply myself.
I took a night course for a while concurrent with a job and could have continued doing so easily until I got a degree because the classes were so non-demanding - open book tests, turn your homework in any time before the end of the semester and no one cares if you show up for class or not. After having worked as a software developer for 8 years, the material in CS courses certainly wasn't new or difficult for me. But it wasn't enough either. At 31 years old I'm ready for education in a way that I wasn't prepared for at 17. Now I demand more, both from myself and the experience. So I'm dropping off the career path and focusing all my energy on getting into one of the most prestigious and challenging programs in the US.
You need to decide what's most important to you. If it's running your business, then by all means do that. But you'll be wasting your time and money while probably not getting what it is your looking for yet again if you're treating education as a hobby. If a formal education is truly your priority, act accordingly.
hell go all the way and get that MBA next! I can't believe how naive the postings on this forum are. Let's get real.
I dropped out of college after four years and have been in IT for eight years. The smartest, most productive people that I have worked with have all been college drop outs. This is across the board whether they are programmers, networkers, sysdmins, PMs or managers. These people tend to be the most motivated. Why? Because they are working in an industry that they chose and love. They didn't let a major dictate the type of work they would have to do for the rest of their lives. They didn't want to be limited by the useless classes they would be forced to take: FORTRAN, women's studies, interpretive dance, blah, blah, blah. They wanted to contribute now, not later. The (very profitable, well paying) fortune 500 company I work at doesn't require degrees to get into the IT department. They're more concerned with what you've done the past five years, not where you sat.
Why should I have to go $100,000 in debt and wait five years to work in IT? If you are in IT ask your professor when was the last time he/she setup a load balanced firewall for a fortune 500 company? When was the last time they architected a QoS solution? When was the last time they implemented a failover solution using BGP and OSPF? The answer will be never. IT professors do not work/live in the real world. They hide out in their little offices while the rest of the IT world (often open source) dictate their future.
A college degree is a piece of paper. It used to be that going to college was something prestigious. The GI bill after WW2 pretty much changed that. Anyone can go to college regardless of their GPA, intelligence, or finances. We have all been sold a lie that a college degree would get us a great job. Now that almost everyone has a college degree so they are telling us we need to get Masters or PHD to further distinguish ourselves. Sure some fields like engineering, medicine, or science should require degrees. By why should anyone need a degree to design websites, run a business, or paint? Don't fall for this trap.
Hey if you like college then have fun. But don't think for a second that you are something special, or have something that a non-traditional person doesn't. Are we so snobbish on this forum that we would only work with degree'd people? Then you better start wiping off that open source software you're using, because guess what, it might have been written by a college drop out! Eeeeek!
I just completed an accelerated MBA degree from a top-6 school while working a full-time job and married with 3 kids. Before enrolling, I was a high achiever at my work and an attentive parent. One semester in, I realized that I was suddenly not very good at anything--barely keeping up with work, only available for major crises at home, and struggling at school. The way to manage it: 1. Keep your eyes on the prize. You'll have to remind yourself and your mate often of why you are putting yourselves through this hell. 2. Concentrate on only the most dire need at the moment. Sure, school takes time management and discipline, blah, blah, blah. But a perfectly designed schedule doesn't jibe with real life. Whether you are up against the wall for a test, or at work, or your spouse is in tears, pick the priority that would be most damaging to your life if you don't fix it RIGHT NOW. 3. Give up on being perfect, or even very good, at anything. For a while, you are going to have to settle for "just good enough" to get through it. Good luck!
Find an accredited college that caters to working people. Ask people that attend how they like the institution before you apply. Is the education they are receiving worth while and are the professors competent. I am currently working in the tech industry 40 - 45 hrs a week and go to school Tuesday / Thursday nights. It's working out real well for me. I like my university a lot.
I am surprized that I haven't seen others mention this, but make sure you are getting the right education for you. People learn different, and you may of had a problem with the learning / study methods used at university.
/.er should enjoy is Steven C. McConnell's Top 10 Reading List.
There is a difference between difference schools, state vs. private universities, two and four colleges, polytechs, and distance education vs. correspondence. Research the options, and pick the right one for you.
In this day and age you do not need to attend classes in person to earn a meaniful degree, in UK, the Open University leads the way, and in Canada there is Athabasca University, I am not as familiar with US schools, but there is the University of Phoenix as well as many others.
Define your goal(s) of attending a post-secondary school. Also an idea for your career goals might be useful, but you need specific education goals. Write them down. I said, write them down. This is how you will evaluate schools, programme and course choices.
Is it just to have a degree? Do you want more a fundamential understanding (i.e. theoric) of computing? Do you want business skills? To become a better rounded software engineer? Understand business, so you can grow your own business? Get a MBA? Meet women? For technical training? To earn more money? Continue doing what you already do, or so you can do something new? Certification?
An university degree is suppose to be based upon a theorical understanding, which while being less specific (i.e. more abstract), is more lasting and will not be outdated every 3 years. That is the #1 source of frustration and confusion I see from young computer science students. An university degree is not a career training programme. You get to do the career training in your own time.
Make use of your electives, do not choose courses because you think they will be easy like "Rocks for Jocks" and "Clap for Credit", find introductary courses you will be interested in, and will benefit you either personally or professionally.
Most schools have some means of providing tours of their facilities, especially in the summer. Since this is an investment that will cost approx. $40,000, you should research this investment as being right for you. If possible, arrange a talk with someone from the department that you are looking at majoring in.
Bone up on time management and planning skills, and study skills if you find studying difficult. University is about learning, but unfortunately very little is taught about how best to learn (for you). Read Stephen R. Covey's The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People it will help in setting your priorities, and planning. To help learn about learning, John L. Adams book Conceptual Blockbusting: Care and Feeding of Ideas, and George Polya's How to Solve It.
Practice reading, seriously if you do not do a lot of non-fiction book reading, start doing some more. A list of books any
Don't try and compete with the younger, full-time students. Learn the information for the information's sake. If you own your own business, your GPA doesn't matter as much as a newbie just graduating. If you will sacrifice a few GPA points, you will learn the same amount of critical information, you just don't spend a lot of time learning the last 5% of what the professor likes/doesn't like for answers. You will find no difference between a 3.9 and a 3.0 for your purpose.
I learn more and faster on my own than I did in college. I am reading 3 books right now, and can learn faster (always have) on my own. Most of the people I know, the skill set they have they NEVER learned in college. Same with me. 12 years in "the field" and 90% of the skills I have I learned on my own. The rest I COULD have learned on my own :)
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
It's tough. To be honest, when you decided to drop out the first time, you made a mistake. There's a reason people tend to go to school FIRST and only start working AFTER...
I hope you won't end up in school for a decade, like most of my friends who are on that same path right now... My only advice is to sacrifice work for school if you have to (yes, you read that right). You will always have more job opportunities, but if you keep putting off school, you'll simply never reach the goal (i.e., the degree). Besides, having the degree opens up new opportunities for you.
My dad got "discovered" at a comp sci class at Pierce College about 1980. The teacher had a friend who needed a couple of programmers who were inexperenced (i.e. cheap) but could figure stuff out. My dad had messed around with TSR80's and whatnot plus the programming class was easy so the teacher recommended him and he go the job.
My dad didn't get a comp sci degree until 94 or so. He got jobs through friends but the HR depts didn't like hiring him without a degree.
So his advice to me was: Get the fucking degree. Jobs are harder to get then back in 1980.
Did I follow his advice? Nah, I've worked for three years doing web development at an advertising firm and finshished about 21 units of school. I'd have a hard time getting another job right now but so far I'm happy and it's working out.
Hollow words will burn and hollow men will burn.
Look at the salary surveys. What's the average income for someone just got out of college? Probably not 55k a year.
So here's the choice:
Four years in college, $40,000 to $100,000 in debt, average $25k to $30k starting.
One year on help desk, study at night, take MCSE test on side. MCSE average salary around $55k.
Hmmm not too hard of a decision.
Whether you love Micro$oft or not, or think all MCSEs are crap, you do have to admit that they have a good system that can give entry level people a foot in the door.
If you make a hiring manager feel like an idiot, you'll NEVER get the job. If your resume has stuff on it that he's never heard of, you'll never get the job..if you ran a company, and have LOADS of experience, you'll never get the job.....
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
I find it VERY difficult to go to college, when you have a mortgage, a wife and kids to support. I learn more on my own.
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
Is anyone out there successfully juggling running a company and studying at the same time? How do you juggle the two without hampering either due to lack of the right amount of attention?
Well, I've done it, and I work with a lot of engineering students that are doing it now. It's not easy. In my case, it nearly cost me my education, my company, and my state of mind. Now I help others avoid running into the same situation.
The problem isn't the hours or the motivation - it's not really a problem of juggling. It's the fact that you've made a commitment to your business, and now you're making a new commitment to your education. When the day comes - and it will come - when you need to pick one or the other, figure out now how you'll choose. A day will come when the business needs you and an exam is coming up. Will you let your staff solve the crisis without your intervention, or will you blow off the exam. Regardless of what you choose, you need to be okay with your choice the next day. These are things to figure out now. If you do this, and stick to it, you'll probably be okay. Juggling implies that you can run and do one, then run and do the other. You *will* hit a day that you can only do one and not the other. Be ready for that day.
If your business doesn't require you to have the degree (that is, you're getting the degree for you) then make the business your first priority. That'll mean that you fail an exam or a class here and there. Be prepared for that, and be okay with that. If you aren't, you'll find yourself overtaxing yourself and the result often is that you fail to meet any of your commitments.
This advise is pretty flexible. Got a family? Care about them? That's your commitment. They win over school as well.
It works in reverse. Got a commitment to Everquest? You have to choose between being a kick-ass Everquester or a person with a degree. At top universities about 15% of students stick to their gaming commitment and get kicked out. Trust me, I do it all the time. We work with students with jobs and families and medical conditions to help them through. The students that refuse to treat their addictions, we cut them loose. Sorry to say, but we don't want to be a $30k/yr gaming club.
Last bit of advice. Don't focus on Princeton or Stanford or MIT. They're not geared towards flexibility. That't not to say it can't be done, but it's much harder. Look for a large, state university that's got a strong continuing education program. You won't get the top school cache (which really doesn't matter anyway) but you'll get a good solid education. They'll be more understanding of your competing commitments, they'll have better course schedules (evening classes, etc.) and they'll have more frequent offerings of courses so you can stay on track.
Good luck.
>Look at the salary surveys
I don't think those surveys reflect the current economy. A lot of people can't find work, period.
I know a lot of MCSEs working crappy shifts at call center hell desks. They earn a helluva lot less then $55K.
>you do have to admit that they have a good system
>that can give entry level people a foot in the door.
Entry level people getting their foot in the door don't make big bucks.
The dotcom boom is over.If you want big money, computers aren't the right choice. Go to law school or go to med school.
I know this because I did.
Back in 1990, I started at Georgia Tech. I promptly was asked to leave (well, a year and a half later...) and I was forced to go hunt down a job.
In 1995, I returned to Tech. I learned a number of things along the way:
a) If you don't care as much where you get your degree from, there are respectable schools where you will learn many things that have schedules that are conducive to the working stiff. Tech wasn't one of those schools; it still can be done but it's tougher.
b) Going back to school is interesting: When I left Tech, I had a 1.1 GPA. When I graduated, I had a 2.8, and that's with all the failed classes and such from my first stint averaged in; my GPA across 1995-2001 was over a 3.5. There's a reason for this: Many people who go to college when they're supposed to are doing it for just that reason: They're supposed to. People who return to college are doing it because they want to. You will learn more, you will enjoy it more, and your GPA will show it.
c) Group projects are the bane of the working stiff. I've never worked for a company where if someone was trying to continue their education, that they couldn't arrange something (there are, of course, exceptions to this rule...) since it's easy to know when your classes will be for the next three, four, five months. People just get used to the idea that you're not going to be in the office from noon 'til 2 but that you'll be there earlier or later, and they deal. Group projects require time outside class, and all the traditional students don't want to waste their evenings on them-- which is what you have free. In some cases, you can work around this by simply being your own group-- with a professional work ethic and the knowledge you already have from doing it for real, you can often spend less time doing a group project yourself than collaborating. On the other hand, group work is an essential part of the academic experience and sometimes the whole thing is not an option-- be creative. You may be able to arrange group meetings via the 'net, for example.
d) I found it helpful to be flexible about my career path: while I really liked my job at HP, I found it helpful to take a similar full-time job down at Tech; when your commute to class is "walk downstairs" instead of "drive 30 minutes", many options open up. On the other hand, state universities pay peanuts. Once again, it becomes a question of deciding what's important to you.
e) Sleep is for the weak. (I'd like to sleep for a week...)
It took a while-- I took classes part-time from 1995 to 2001, plus I had about a year's worth of credit from my first attempt at school. But I'm glad I did it. I understand many things that I'd've never picked up "doing it for real". I learned a lot of stuff that's not ever going to be useful in my daily life but is really cool anyhow (I took lots of history courses as electives.) I'm glad I went back.
And you still have time to read Slashdot? Quite amazing. After life without TV, this site has become an addiction to me. The first step is admitting it.
I wonder if I've reached the 2 minutes since previous comment barrier.
What time is it/will be over there? Check with my iPhone app!
If only reality were this simple. While you may be correct that sleep and school are important, the reality is that running a successful business of even mild complexity is VERY demanding of the entrenprenuers time and energy. Delegation IS an important ability in business, but no honest business person will tell you that this is an alternative to being heavily involved in running a business, especially at the earlier stages. Rather, delegation is a supplement, to be used to leverage the entreprenuer's time as the company grows, but not in lieu of it. (Though when a company reaches a critical mass, the workload can lighten with a strong management team, the organization never runs itself) What you fail to realize is that in most successful businesses the entreprenuer is the ONLY person that has the knowledge of all the necessary areas to keep on growing it and is often the only one with the same level of concern. You may delegate to your accountant and various other managers, but there MUST be someone to coordinate it all, to make the tradeoffs, and the critical decisions. Bringing in a single qualified person in is generally not an option, because they don't grow on trees, and because the few that honestly are qualified generally either demand a large amount of equity and/or annual compensation--they simply aren't affordable. The workload presented to most entrepreneuers makes school look like a relatively light burden--it is the very unusual entrepreneur that can afford the time that you speak of.
There's a real difference in the effectiveness on your memory of REM sleep as compared to other sleep stages. If you aren't waking up from dreams, you're probably failing to commit things to long-term memory.
Also it is very important to actually do the things you learn in some way or another. For example: people often come in for interviews and they say, "yes, I know java, and design patterns, and all that" but when you quiz them on it they don't have the working knowledge, the know-how. They do know they can look at a book and find it, though. This is slower. Eventually some of those people will develop the working knowledge, and some will do so very quickly. But as an employer, it's better to pay a little more for the safe bet: someone who comes in with that knowledge.
While I can't speak to owning a buisness, I can tell you working as a consultant/Programmer and going to school is managable. You just have to be honest with yourself in assessing what you can handle when signing up for classes. People are tempted to load up on extremely hard classes to reach the end faster, but having a full load of work outside of school makes that *almost* unbearable (that is unless you don't mind going without things like sleep). Best thing to do is skip the advisors and go talk to a professor in your dept. about your goals and hash out the best plan of attack. (it is my experience that academic advisors try and discourage you from just about everything). I am currently finishing up my first B.S. in math, and will finish my second in physics next year. Its been rough at times, but the key is to not over extend yourself with your course load, and to be diligent in organizing your time accordingly. Most professors will work with you when things come up and you have to miss class, so long as you talk to them before hand about your situation. (not all will, but most are pretty understanding). One thing that has gotten me this far, is by meeting with my professors at least once ever two weeks or so, about homework, about anything.. just to leave the impression that your going the extra mile to understand the material. (90% of the time it pays off during grading.)
hope this helps.
You know, the sinking kind. Try having your degree and a moderate amount of experience but can't get a job. I learned alot from my time at a university, and I wouldn't trade it for anything. If you HAVE a job which allows you to go back and get a degree DO IT. In this economy (and this is going to make me sound uneducated here), and just leaving high school, DO NOT go to college. Get some experience first, then go back. I went to college right after high school and now couldn't find a job to save my life because I don't have ENOUGH experience. It's a horrible catch-22 but you can always go back and get a degree, you can't go back and get experience.
Visit www.seriouslythough.com
i sold my business and started working for someone else when i decided to go back to school. the problem with taking time off from your own business is that the grey matter wears out. running a business you've got enough to worry about that a lot of people out there can't handle it...college is the same. put them together and you've got to be more motivated than i am to pull it off.
- im just sick of fixing windows all the time -
Currently I'm working in school full time in night courses towards my Btech program, while running my job (Network Administrator) full time. On top of that there the occasional out of town trip i have to attend which can really throw things for a whirl. Also my courses have got to be some of the most boring on earth (not all just some)... Its a living hell sometimes... The best advice I can give is to live, go to school and work as close together as possible, driving around half the time is NOT fun.
;)
Lugging around a Laptop is also not much fun, I've managed to just bring a PDA to class with a nice rollout keypad for notes. Saves a lot of space and the hassle of lugging the laptop around, at the expense of some functionality.
Be ready to eat out a lot, well at least for me, it's just too much effort to cook your own food ahead of time, package it, eat it, bring home the containers wash... etc... running to the local sub shop is a lot easier. Whenever you do get at home, you probalby just want to crash anyways... goodbye social life.
Only drink coffee if you NEED it, otherwise its HARSH on your body after a few days.. I duno what really happens, but if you drink too much a few days in a row its gona mess u up good and ur gona feel like a sack of potatoes 24/7...
The only nice things is that Courses are often tax deductable and you can get your company to pay for a portion of it all.. After a while you'll build up a pretty library of fancy textbooks to fill your shelf
I'm currently running a company while being in school. The number one thing that you need is time managment. I have all my classes on Mondays and weds. I spend all day on campus, and do all my homework in between classes. Then I have all the other days of the week fully open to do work and what ever needs to be done. You might be able to do the same with evening courses, but I know with my business I need to work a lot of evenings. If you schedule your time right, you can definetly get it done.
Sig!
For what it's worth, Steve Wozniak (co-founder of Apple) finished his degree (I think at CSUN) years after starting Apple, making his fortune, then quitting Apple. His co-founder Steve Jobs never finished.
And of course, Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard and never finished -- but how often does Microfsoft hire programmers without degrees these days?
The bottom line is, whether you should get a degree depends on what you want it for. On AVERAGE a degree benefits most people financially, but having degrees is no guarantee of success, and not having one is no guarantee of failure.
--Robert (Ph.D., M.B.A., M.A., B.S.)
I am considering a similair boat ride.
:-)
:-)
:-)
Only this time around I am going to be like those nice snotty rich kids in college who can sit and study all day long, and not have to worry like I did about where my next meal, or if I was going to be able to have the money to pay for housing next semester.
You see, the intellectual challenge of attending and getting into college is just one aspect of the puzzle as a whole.
If you really are a smart person, chances are you probably don't come from a rich family that can afford to pay your way while you concentrate on playing the game, of jumping through the hoops to get into grad school....very hard to do if you were like me. (i.e. very poor, and very naive....a combination which made my college experience not very enlightening till I ran out of money...or went to debtors prison.)
I ended up quitting college and starting a company....well, several companies, actually.
After my third one, I have found success, in that I don't have to work now and I am still young...about 36. So...
I am considering, like yourself, storming the gates of academia, and not only using 15 years of experience in building and designing software, but also putting my considerable financial resources and gained free time to CLAIM REVENGE and teach those snotty 18 year olds a thing or too on the grade curve, now that the playing field is level.
Dare I say in my favor.
I however, have a fairly realistic point of view in life about things....which I will suggest you adopt:
First of all, whenever you want something in life, in this case a degree, that requires a deep time commitment, you have to give up something. Having it all is not possible. (I here the OOoooooo's in the audience.) Well it is true. Do you want to be mediocre? Then spread yourself thin. Do you want to be the best? Do one thing then, and do it well and better than anyone else. The better your focus, the better you will obtain it. So while Joe academic is at the movies Saturday night pounding on his date when he gets home, brush up on next weeks final exam, and spend more time in the prof's office and running the class material through some personal what-if's to understand not just all the angles from the class material, INVENT NEW ONES, and get those too with the spare time....
For me I have given up for the moment, what the next 6 years will bring. My goal is to go to GRAD school, which requires upfront some realistic thinking: I will have to be a cut above the rest of the academic slobs in my class, if I want to get into GRAD school. That requires MORE time, and more commitment than the average BS candidate will make.
So the question is: What will I have to give up to do that? Answer:
1) A slowed down social life for the next 4 years.
2) A change of my circle of friends, from professional to academic and not so bad, maybe even meet more new friends.
3) A hold on any romantic interests that infers.
For me, 1-3 was a no brainer, as I don't want children, and am an over achiever....which drives most women I meet nuts anyway.
But, in your case, you have tried going back to school more than once, and dare I suggest perhaps, you really aren't serious about it because you have failed to give up things in your life you value more than the degree.
I would seriously reconsider. Perhaps, you can find other forms of achievement just as secure or rewarding...(start up a different business in a different industry for example, like open a restraunt....etc.)
Nothing goes together quite as well as good food, and good coding.
Write a book? Isn't that what experience is best at doing in conveying knowledge to the younger who have yet to walk the road you have?
Writing a book is definately a intellectual pursuit I recommend. It also, requires lots of time and effort and focus.
Historically, it doesn't sound like you really want a degree? It will not buy you anymore security than what you already have, if you have seriously employed yourself and are successfuly at it. After all, employing ones self successfully in a field where by you can consider doing something else, is an expression of the ultimate achievement.
I think you are looking for a different challenge and to me, I don't think school is it. I think it is the fact everyone on Slashdot says, more education is always good.
Indeed it is, but not always for the same reasons. If you seriously built a company in this industry and you have achieved independance like I have, and employee PhD's like I have had, then getting a degree is questionable if you want to expand your background.
For myself, I am going back to school simply because I find it as something unfinished in my life, when at a time, I wasn't financially equipped to handle the year to year ongoing financialy requirements. That and my mom and dad dreamed I would go to college, and now that I just lost my last parent, I realize some of that dream I shared is incomplete.
But I don't delude myself, for one moment, I am going to discover something about computer science I don't already know, or somehow, will obtain information that will secure me financially or GOD FORBID, I have to work for someone else, simply by attending college.
That is a bunch of Bull, and don't let anyone here on Slashdot tell you, it is not possible to achieve knowledge without going to our finest institutions...
Most of the people who went to our finer institutions, of the 20th century, who worked for DECADES on some of the most secret parts of the Universe, essentially had thier entires lifes work INVALIDATED by a simple office clerk, who couldn't get INTO college. I am not talking about simple minded tasks of building a web site either here. This man fundamentally changed our entire view of creation and is the reason why we have our modern society. (i.e. HINT E=mc SQUARED)
If anything, the success I made over the past 13 years has made me permenantly UNEMPLOYABLE because I don't put up with "people who took the short bus to school" in a professional environment.
Those kind of people work for my competitors because I certainly don't hire them thank God.
But, in any case, I would seriously reconsider your reasons for going back too school beyond money matters, especially, if you say you are already financially independant enough to make that sort of commitment.
Hack
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
When do find time to be rude to Americans?
Too bad you didn't post with your real identity because you could be my twin. I left college years ago to pursue opportunities that wouldn't come again, I ended up as the I.T. Director for this $100 million company, then I went back and finished my degree at the University of Phoenix. I still have a strong, advancing career and I'm thinking of going back to get another degree -- as another poster said, they're just pieces of paper, like insurance.
The KEY is whatever strategy you take, do NOT let it significantly hurt your career. Good jobs like we have don't disappear as easily as some posters suggest, and it's damn hard to find a good job today, with or without a degree.
well... that's an idea you have. i'm not sure where you got it (personal experience?) but my psychology prof said something quite different (when i was in psychology). he summarized some studies on sleep and told us that, by incrementally setting their alarm clocks earlier and earlier, a large test group was able to reduce their sleeping time to 5 hours a night without any impaired day to day functionality. some people could cut it back to 4 and still feel great (and perform as well on whatever tests the experimenters subjected them to) and some could only cut it back to 6. in any case, the study (and the others like it) determined that there is no 'set' or 'fixed' amount of sleep humans, as a species, "need". as sleep time is gradually reduced, sleep also becomes more efficient -- more time is spent in the restful stages of sleep each night as a %. the simple truth is that people just enjoy lying in a warm bed for a long time -- even though it's not necessary to regenerate for that long. (i wish i could cite you some studies but i'm lazy) my prof himself managed to cut his sleep time back to 4 hours a night. the reason he stopped, eventually, is that he just had too much time on his hands in the early hours of the day and nothing with which to fill the time. frankly, i'm more inclined to believe my prof. he is one of the most skeptical and reasonable people i've met, and he's read a hell of a lot of studies. some day, when i can no longer afford to enjoy lying in bed for many hours, i will put these findings to use :)
mp3s by me
I have a day job as a network administrator, then on Thurs, Fri, and Sat I work as a DJ at a prominent nightclub in Houston. I also have a girl friend (but the advantage in that is she comes up to the club to see me, so i guess it's a bit less stressfull) and on Mon. and Wed. I go to school. I also like to go out sometimes too so I have no time for myself.
The point I think i was trying to make with that is that if you enjoy what you're doing, then it's not work, it's life. Work to live, don't live to work.
"Sometimes the most intelligent statement is the one that is left unsaid"
I am currently in year nine of nine for my BA/CS degree. I'm pretty sure that I've done all permutations of the work/schooling thing. Here is my history to date:
- Two years full time at Grove City College until I decided that their CS program was weak. (Good academics, otherwise.)
- Transferred to Taylor University for a year and promptly ran out of cash.
- Worked full time (well 70hrs/week) for Phoenix Contact, GmbH in the MIS group at their North America headquarters.
- Returned to Taylor University to run the university Computing and Systems Sciences department's network and take a class or to on the side. I worked for the university for three years.
- Hired by HP (nee Compaq) Took two classes correspondance through Taylor University World Wide Campus during the last year.
- Still working (as long as I can...
;) for HP and about to take my final two courses during nights at local colleges to transfer back to Taylor University.
My advice? I guess any of the above work... The most important thing is to FINISH WHILE YOU CAN!!!Not quite the same, as I'm a peon, and don't "run a company", but to answer your question ...
You go slowly, you do what you can. Going to school at night is the only way for me to get back into school, as I work 40+ hours a week. I'm taking two classes this semester, and I go home tired after work to study and do the homework.
Of course, my motivation isn't a degree; it's just to learn, and to try on new hats. I'm not happy unless I'm learning something, whether it's in the computer field or not. I was working so many hours, and so long, and doing such mind-numbing work that I didn't have the time or energy to study like I did when I was a contractor. Just the act of going to school brings structure to it.
It's a little wrong to say a tomato is a vegetable. It's a lot wrong to say it's a suspension bridge.
[T]he United States Open University officially closed on July 31st 2002.
A pity. IMHO OU is one of the best ideas in higher education.
If I was an american, I'd sure as hell protest about this: adult education is one of the most important methods of raising the educational level of citizens. It is also actually one of the best manifestations of the american dream
does anyone know why you americans abandoned this method ? is this a political thing ? did they get bought ? or was it that the ROI too low for the investors ?
I find it hard to believe there isn't a steady demand for the open-university's services in the US. Am I wrong in this?
Working for necessity's mother.
I just have one question for the original poster and those of you who are in a similar situation:
Was it worth it?
Now, I don't mean "Are you making more money now?" That much is a foregone conclusion. I mean, "Are you fundamentally a happier person after pushing yourself to the limit?"
There is way more to life than just money. If this is really what you want to do, and you are happy while doing it, cool. But we're only on this planet for a little while, and afterwards, that's it. The Universe carries on as you lie in the ground as bacterial fodder. Is it really worth skipping time with your SO and friends, or not reading a book you wanted to read or seeing a movie you wanted to see, or just not being able to laze about and think?
These all sound like really trivial things, but do you really want to be lying on your death-bed and think to yourself, "Shit man, I made a ton of dough." Maybe I'm just being naive, but I definitely don't want to end up like that.
Caffeine.....
Well, perahps PCP would help as well...
a cronicly ill 12 month old that needs 24 hour a day care, a preschooler and a home (cleaning, cooking, etc.) and going to University. however, I am only going half time.
True capitalism = lots of similar companies = jobs for everyone who wants one.
Many here have opined about what school will do for your earning capacity, and other other items, but none that I read answered your central question. Can you manage both school and work without negatively impacting either? The short answer is it depends on how you do it.
A bit of background. I ran a software company in the mid-90's and have run an oil & gas company (some working interest, but primarily royalty interest) since 1990. From 1996 through 2000, I also finished up my BS and then an MS in aerospace engineering. I am now persuing my Ph.D. in aerospace engineering. So what I am writing comes from experience, some of it gained in a less than enjoyable way at times.
The key is to answer to following questions. How much of your job responsibilities, and the time and control that go with those responsibilities can you delegate to others? How much control of your company do you want or need to maintain? Do you have competant people that you can rely upon to do a good job if you are around less? If you can't answer these types of questions affirmatively, going back to school until you can is a mistake.
One day you'll realize that your company is suffering if you try to go to school before you, your associates, and your company are ready. When push comes to shove, you'll let school have the short end of the stick because, after all, your company is what pays the bills. It's yours, a part of you. And letting it whither on the vine is impossible.
I will let others talk about balancing time, priorities, etc. The real question that you should answer is whether your company can be run as well as it is now with others taking enough of your responsibilities, and the time those require, so that you can begin to deal with the issues that are secondary: making time for studying and working.
Good luck!
Jim Hillhouse
jdhouse4@jdhouse4.com
Shelton Oil & Gas
Let us go to the stars, dream new dreams, and renew the embers of hope that have long since grown cold.
Read the subject line.
WFT is that all about? Email you if I need help? I thought you were busy! Go and give her another boffin' rather than replyu to a bunch of /. lovepuppies.
Face it, IT is alot like manual labor, it is just putting your nose to the grindstone and just work. Someone willing to put in the time can make something of themselves, especially a smart person, but they are not going to turn into the CEO of a big company, you need that degree/i> It's fairly obvious from this statement that you are not in IT, or if you are, you're in one of those menial positions that can be filled by degree holders. Programming is not like manual labour. It requires high degrees of business and analysis skills along with creative problem solving. It's worth pointing out too that accountants don't need a degree either. They can go into acounting straight from high school. There are professional accounting bodies that will provide accreditation to accountants.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.