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Nokia calls Wireless Warchalkers 'Thieves'

Mr]-[at writes "Nokie "has condemned as theft the placing of chalk symbols on walls and pavements at places where people can use wireless net access."" Ok I guess if you wanna be technical about it ;)

199 of 602 comments (clear)

  1. Well by lexcyber · · Score: 2, Funny


    Can I borrow some air from the nice people? - If I
    walk past?... pretty please..... I am just a humble
    human.... air... please.... ....

    --
    - To understand recursion, we must first understand recursion -
    1. Re:Well by SirSlud · · Score: 2

      Be fair. How else are they going to aquire the material they need to make their food?

      --
      "Old man yells at systemd"
    2. Re:Well by jc42 · · Score: 2

      Yeah, and on several occasions, I've seen people standing under a store's awning to get out of the rain. Not just on the public sidewalk, but even inside the store's entry way. This is blatant theft of the company's services and property, if you ask me, and it's gotta stop!

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
  2. Illegal chalking by Louis-Nap · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...in related news, primary schools have called for the banning of the underground childrens activity known as 'hopscotch', arguing that such wanton chalking of pavements could lead on to a life of bandwidth theft.

    --

    ===
    You know that guy who stole your girlfriend away from you in the summer of '95? He's going to die.
    1. Re:Illegal chalking by Hard_Code · · Score: 5, Funny

      Also, anybody found in possession of chalking paraphernalia will be arrested. Chalking may also lead to eventually writing with actual writing instruments, and in extreme cases to the authorship of manifestos on intellectual property and the destruction of the commons. And remember, when you chalk you support terrorism.

      --

      It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
  3. No, this is not theft. by BigASS · · Score: 5, Insightful
    How about we consult websters for a moment.
    Note: To constitute theft there must be a taking without the owner's consent, and it must be unlawful or felonious; every part of the property stolen must be removed, however slightly, from its former position; and it must be, at least momentarily, in the complete possession of the thief.

    Does not sound like warchalking cleanly fits the definition of theft to me.
    --
    - Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it.
    1. Re:No, this is not theft. by EvanED · · Score: 2

      It's closer to vandalism. But even that may not hold out. (I'm too lazy to look up the legal definition)

    2. Re:No, this is not theft. by N3WBI3 · · Score: 2
      Fits just great, if I go rob a bank but dont take all of their money I dont fit in this definition "It must be, at least momentarily, in the complete possission of hte theif".

      Now when someone uses a wireless network they are in complete possesion of some of my bandwidth for a time. Stealing bandwidth is unlawful, and they are directing resources away from my servers. Now the chalking itself is more like helping the theif.

      Try to justify it to yourselves however you want staeling is stealing, no matter how poor the security you steal from, and no matter how much the person you steal from has an abundance of what you steal..

      --
    3. Re:No, this is not theft. by N3WBI3 · · Score: 2
      Yes i've **STOLEN** money just like the people are **STAELING** bandwidth (bandwidth that others **PAY** for)..

      My post was not a troll, everyone here sounds like a kid trying to justify why he/she did something wrong..

      --
    4. Re:No, this is not theft. by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 2

      Its not really theft, but it could be tresspassing.

      Nope, the courts have held that EM-waves are generally covered under nuisance laws, not trespassing laws.

      If the business can show that its pipes were filled and that their access subsequently slowed down, they can probably sue under trespass of chattel, but it's unlikely that this is the case.

      Most likely though this would fall under hacking laws.

  4. Not Technical by FatRatBastard · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No, warchalking is technically *not* theft. You may argue that the act of mooching the bandwidth of the wireless access is theft, but the warchalking is, at worst, vandalism (graffitti). It is no more theft than someone selling a "guide to the stars' homes" (since a burgler could deduce that there may be things of worth in their houses and rob them)

    1. Re:Not Technical by NineNine · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, it's closer to somebody chalking sidewalks/streets in front of houses with no security systems. It's aiding and abetting thieves.

    2. Re:Not Technical by mocm · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Mooching bandwidth cannot be called theft, maybe fraud. As long as you don't take something physically away it can't be called theft.
      People just want you to think of it as theft, because of the natural (or better learned) aversion to such an act.

      --
      ***Quis custodiet ipsos custodes***
    3. Re:Not Technical by N3WBI3 · · Score: 2

      Stealing cable is theft by law, its no different.. If I steal cable from my $Provider, you dont lose your service do you? Whay is it theft??

      --
    4. Re:Not Technical by BradleyUffner · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wirel3ess networks have a set amount of bandwidth. If an unauthorized person uses that bandwidth without permission of the owner then tehre is less bandwidth available for the owner. That is theft, you are taking away something that someone else owns and they no longer have access to it.

    5. Re:Not Technical by nettdata · · Score: 2

      If an unauthorized person uses that bandwidth without permission of the owner then tehre is less bandwidth available for the owner.owner. That is theft, you are taking away something that someone else owns and they no longer have access to it.

      At some point people have to take responsibility for their own actions or inactions.

      If the company plugs in wireless networks that are insecure, then they are partially (if not mostly) to blame for the casual mis-use of their "freely available" network connection. For instance, if my laptop automatically configures itself to use the nearest, strongest wireless access point (Mac OS X does this), and it's someone elses network, then tough... that's their fault. I had no intent, nor did I do anything to steal connectivity. That is the default action of the OS, which is the same defense that most WAP installers use... "that's how it was configured out of the box". I'd say the onus is on the WAP owner to make an attempt to keep people out of their network.

      If I go out of my way to hack into someone elses network, then the intent to steal is there, and that is MY fault.

      At the end of the day, ignorance of the technology and how to implement it properly is no excuse.

      Also, this whole "open door to a house" analogy just doesn't work. Humans are not naturally pre-disposed to walk into the nearest house, while network devices ARE generally pre-disposed to connect to the nearest available network.

      But hey, that's just my thought on the subject.

      --



      $0.02 (CDN)
  5. I'm not usually complaining about these things... by Jugalator · · Score: 2

    ... but at least get the spelling of the header right. :-P

    --
    Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
  6. Well of course Nokia don't like it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Its like Microsoft declaring OSS & Free software "un-American", or the RIAA and MPAA complaining about P2P networks. It is a threat to their business models.

    Think about it; people have started to use Warchalking as a means to advertise and propogate open wireless networks. Geeks are setting up their own networks and chalking the area themselves, allowing people to use their nodes freely. Nokia is afraid that if warchalking becomes popular, it could threaten the uptake of the forthcoming 3G mobile networks.

    If Nokia made WAN gear, I'm sure they wouldn't be quite as vocal about it...

    1. Re:Well of course Nokia don't like it by Tune · · Score: 3, Interesting

      > If Nokia made WAN gear, I'm sure they wouldn't be quite as vocal about it...

      ...Or like their *friends* at Ericsson: Combining the two?
      (This more informative article is unformtunatiely in that awful language.)

    2. Re:Well of course Nokia don't like it by Reziac · · Score: 2

      And if a company is worried about it, why not secure the network a bit better, so every joe with a wireless setup can't walk past and use it??

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    3. Re:Well of course Nokia don't like it by 10Ghz · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Or like their *friends* at Ericsson: Combining the two [ericsson.com]?"

      You mean something like this:

      http://www.nokia.com/phones/nokiad211/index.html

      True, it aint UMTS, but UMTS isn't available yet.

      --
      Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
  7. Theft? by algernon7 · · Score: 4, Funny
    Only if it isn't their chalk...

  8. As humans, don't we have right to our airspace? by Plug · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Take an analogy, and call me in the morning. If TV signals leak (Videocrypt Pay-TV goes out unencrypted, for example), they don't call the people who turn on their TV and see "Oooh, unencrypted Sky" and watch it, theives - they fix the problem. A leak is a bug, something to be fixed.

    Why don't Nokia put more time and effort into convincing people to secure their wireless networks? It's my airspace too! As a citizen of {insert friendly first-world nation) I would like to think that I have some right to the cancer-causing radiation that is travelling through my head. If I choose to pick it, that's up to me. If it can go through walls, it's going through my head, goddammit!

    It's my airspace. These people are sending signals through our bodies. Even assuming it's 100% healthy (no trolls with stories about studies into cancer causes required), I don't have the right to attempt to listen to this signal?

    Perhaps the issue is transmitting back onto these networks should be illegal, but snooping shouldn't be. Turn on the encryption, smarten up and stop bitching at (white-hat) hackers for using technology in ways it wasn't originally intended to be used. That's how development works.

    1. Re:As humans, don't we have right to our airspace? by __aahlyu4518 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just because someone leaves the door open doesn't mean I have the right to enter.

    2. Re:As humans, don't we have right to our airspace? by teamhasnoi · · Score: 2
      However, the 'door' doesn't come to meet you, and radiate through your body.

      Otherwise, yeah.

    3. Re:As humans, don't we have right to our airspace? by radish · · Score: 2

      and it is *not* illegal to let people know that the door is open

      That depends entirely on your motivation for doing so. If it could be considered you were advising thieves where there were insecure houses, you could be guilty of aiding & abetting.

      --

      ---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"

    4. Re:As humans, don't we have right to our airspace? by Hard_Code · · Score: 2

      Actually it does...there are several laws, not sure if they are local or regional or national or what, but my wild speculation is that in most cases you will not be charged with trespassing *simply* by walking through an open door. That does not equate to a *right* to enter, but neither does it equate to a *crime*.

      --

      It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
    5. Re:As humans, don't we have right to our airspace? by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 2

      Just because someone leaves the door open doesn't mean I have the right to enter.

      Unless it's a store.

      The fact of the matter is that there are hundreds of years of history backing up the common sense notion that people don't want you coming in their house without permission. But that's just not the case with WiFi. Some businesses don't mind, others do. Obviously Nokia has interest in stopping the spread of P2P WiFi networks, and branding people as criminals is a good way to do it. But personally I disagree. In any case, we should come up with a simple request/response mechanism to allow computers to ask each other whether the network is open to the public. Whether or not the system should be opt-in or opt-out - well, that's ultimately going to be for the courts to decide.

    6. Re:As humans, don't we have right to our airspace? by nettdata · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Just because someone leaves the door open doesn't mean I have the right to enter.

      This "open door" analogy just doesn't fit.

      Human being are NOT natrually pre-disposed to enter houses, whereas network devices ARE generally pre-disposed to connect to the nearest/strongest WAP.

      If you install a WAP, secure it.

      Then, follow the intent.

      If someone purposely hacks into your network, the intent to steal is there. If a network device can/does automatically configure itself to connect, well, it's a piece of hardware... it has no intent of it's own, so there's no intent to steal.

      Ignorance of the technology and how to implement it is NOT an excuse!

      --



      $0.02 (CDN)
    7. Re:As humans, don't we have right to our airspace? by Fjord · · Score: 2

      Do know of case law that backs this up. I've heard both that you are not allowed to enter an unlocked house and that you are allowed to enter an unlocked house. I haven't been able to find any caselaw either way (findlaw's search engine blows about as bad as /.s).

      --
      -no broken link
    8. Re:As humans, don't we have right to our airspace? by KjetilK · · Score: 2
      No. It would have been neat if you didn't have to secure your wireless network, because it could then have been used as an emergency network if it was really needed.

      Bandwidth is a scarce resource, and will be for a very long time to come, so it must be managed wisely.

      The ideal world is not one would you would have to secure everything to hold on to it. The ideal world is one would people would have the social intelligence to stay away from things that don't belong to them. You could say I'm utopia now, but I don't think so: It is not hard to run away from a restaurant without paying. It is not hard to grab a newspaper from an outlet and not paying. Even so, few people are doing it, because they know it is wrong.

      Similarily, people should stay away from using the bandwidth of wireless networks where they're not wanted. That way, if a neighbourhood is covered, if somebody there needs emergency assistance for some reason, they can communicate this need. Otherwise, they will just be rejected as a possible intruder.

      As for your cancer, well, you need to read more physics.

      --
      Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
  9. Secure your network. Problem solved. by qurob · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Not entirely, but it would help get the freeloaders off.

    If you're going to be a wireless 'hippy', submit your location to an online database or something.

    I know places where I can plug into CAT5 or RJ45 phone lines, but I don't walk in to companies, pluggin' in.

  10. UMTS instead of WiFi... by Jacco+de+Leeuw · · Score: 2, Troll

    Of course, Nokia would rather want you to buy a Nokia UMTS phone which can be used on UMTS networks built by Nokia...

    --
    -------
    Warning: Slashdot may contain traces of nuts.
  11. Entrapment? by John+Paul+Jones · · Score: 4, Interesting

    IANAL, but I believe that if I left a few cases of beer on the sidewalk for a few days (discounting the skunk factor) and some or all of it disappeared, it would be regarded as "Shame on me" for not securing my property, and I would have no case.

    How is this different?

    -JPJ
    --
    Feh.
    1. Re:Entrapment? by sql*kitten · · Score: 2

      IANAL, but I believe that if I left a few cases of beer on the sidewalk for a few days (discounting the skunk factor) and some or all of it disappeared, it would be regarded as "Shame on me" for not securing my property, and I would have no case.

      But if you left them in your house, and forgot to lock your front door, and someone came in and took them (then left a sign by the road saying "this house is unlocked! help yourself!") then that would be a crime.

    2. Re:Entrapment? by DarkZero · · Score: 2

      But if you left them in your house, and forgot to lock your front door, and someone came in and took them (then left a sign by the road saying "this house is unlocked! help yourself!") then that would be a crime.

      Yet another stupid house analogy in a long line of "something on internet = your residential home" arguments. As always, it does not hold water. In this case, it does not hold water because the bandwidth that's being "stolen" is freely flowing through the airwaves, thus being available to anyone in the general area that cares to use it. Thus, a more appropriate analogy would be the aforementioned "object left on the sidewalk for a few days" analogy.

      The warchalker, despite the Slashdot headline, is really irrelevant in this case. The chalk is simply an alternative to booting up your laptop and taking the two seconds to look for it. It's really just a nice little redundancy that saves you one minute of battery time.

    3. Re:Entrapment? by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 2

      Where are you when we're arguing about whether or not spam is theft?

  12. Re:Theft? by Jugalator · · Score: 2

    Chalk symbol-free walls?

    Yeah, I agree it *is* silly...

    --
    Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
  13. Should be useful... by Black+Parrot · · Score: 4, Insightful


    Should be useful to security auditors. Get out and take a stroll around your site, and be alarmed at any chalk-up you find.

    And of course, do something about it.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    1. Re:Should be useful... by Rayonic · · Score: 3, Funny

      And of course, do something about it.

      Given today's security climate, that must mean... erasing the chalk?

  14. Thieves? by (trb001) · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I would imagine this poll will rate very similar to the file sharing poll...should Napster have been illegal? Most would say no, sharing files in itself isn't illegal, the downloading of copyrighted material without having paid for it is the illegal part. This is similar, the chalking in itself isn't illegal but the usage is.

    One thing to remember is that it may be illegal to chalk in some places. On many college campuses they have made it illegal to chalk the sidewalks advertising parties, concerts, etc. Stupid, but laws are still laws.

    --trb

  15. You can't steal something i fit is protected! by mustangdavis · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I can't believe this has been posted on SlashDot ... again!

    If a company doesn't protect it's wireless network by restricting MAC addresses, etc ... then I believe they loose their right to complain! IF they are really worried about theft, do something to protect yourself!

    How many businesses don't have a lock on the front door? Let face it, a lock won't keep EVERYBODY out, but it will kep 99.9% of people out!

    Instead of wasting time and money complaining about theft, why don't these companies spend those resources implimenting wireless security. It isn't that difficult to keep the majority of would be "hackers" (and I use that term VERY loosely ... my appologizes to those that really know what is going on) off of a network!

    Some common sence here people!

    1. Re:You can't steal something i fit is protected! by TheFlyingGoat · · Score: 2, Interesting
      If a company doesn't protect it's wireless network by restricting MAC addresses, etc ... then I believe they loose their right to complain!
      Keeping with your lock analogy, that's like saying that if a company doesn't actually make use of their door locks, that they lose their right to complain when someone walks in and takes their stuff. Furthermore, weak wireless security would be the equivalent of your house, which may not have a top-of-the-line security system, deadbolts on every door, and bars on all the windows? I agree with most of your comment, but companies that aren't bright enough to secure their network don't forgo any of their rights, and unauthorized use of their networks is, in essence, theft. On the other hand, warchalking has nothing to do with the use of their networks, so Nokia is out of its mind.
      --
      You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. --Winston Churchill
    2. Re:You can't steal something i fit is protected! by OrangeSpyderMan · · Score: 2, Informative

      If a company doesn't protect it's wireless network by restricting MAC addresses, etc ... then I believe they loose their right to complain!

      While you are entitled to believe this is the case, I assure you that it is not. Unfortunately, they don't lose the right to complain. Sure the insurance company may refuse to pay up for the loss, but from a legal standpoint they have every right to complain, and will.

      The only thing that is changing, at least here in Europe, it corporate resposibility for damages made to a third party using their network. They have an obligation to attempt to prevent their IT infrastructure from being used for illegal activities. If it can be proven that they did not have reasonable protection, and that lack of protection lead to their network being used to attack a third party, they can be held responsible for damages to the third party, even if the attack originated outside of their network, and only used it as a rebound. A good example would be the openssl worm last week that infects then "phones home" on 2002/udp to potentially take part in DDoS. If after this, a company didn't at least block outbound traffic on 2002/udp at the firewall (if for example the server couldn't be patched straight away) then that company can be legally responsible for the (its part in) the DDoS attack.

      --
      Try NetBSD... safe,straightforward,useful.
  16. Re:How is it different? by mccalli · · Score: 3, Insightful
    How is it any different than me sitting next to some one at a stop light and hearing their crappy music?

    Because at the stop light, you don't get to pick which CD they're playing. When connecting to someone's wireless network, at some point you're going to be making use of their resources (DHCP server, intranet, bandwidth, firewall...whatever).

    Not saying I agree with Nokia's description, but there is a difference between your stop-light analogy and warchalking.

    Cheers,
    Ian

  17. Duh by scrod98 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ...but if I watch TV, I am not provide less TV signal for other people to watch. Not the right analogy for bandwidth!

    --
    LETS DECOMPOSE & ENJOY ASSEMBLING
  18. Just like beggar marks by ites · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Once upon a time...
    when tramps abd beggars roamed the lands
    you could find strange marks inscribed
    in chalk, on pavements and walls...
    Tramps would write: "generous, number 12"
    or "tea and biscuits, this house"
    And occasionally, "back door sometimes unlocked".
    People who do not secure their networks invite theft.
    But people who steal are still thieves.
    "Warchalking" is not illegal - how can it be! - but it is immoral.
    Go get your own IP link, you bums! :)

    --
    Sig for sale or rent. One previous user. Inquire within.
    1. Re:Just like beggar marks by digitalsushi · · Score: 2
      --
      slashdot: where everyone yells sarcastic metaphors to themselves to understand the issue
  19. Re:How is it different? by squarefish · · Score: 2

    I would have suggested posting anonymously on this one- the RIAA is watching!

    --
    Creationists are a lot like zombies. Slow, but powerful and numerous. And they all want to eat our brains.
  20. Takes one to know one by dazdaz · · Score: 2, Funny

    What about Nokia's high prices for their mobiles, you could call them thieves too.

    1. Re:Takes one to know one by N3WBI3 · · Score: 2

      Stupid Class warfare mentality, you have a right not to use their service, you do not have a right to steal someone elses service...

      --
  21. Re:How is it different? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The equivalent would be if you were listening and as a result they heard less of their own music.

  22. Okay by Wrexen · · Score: 2, Interesting

    First off, it's "Nokia" not "Nokie"

    Second, learn how to use the right form of quotation marks

    Back to the point - what is so difficult about bolting down your wireless access point? MAC address filtering is available on pretty much every AP/router, and unless you're having LAN parties every weekend and can't be bothered to add each person's card, you have no reason not to have a secured point of access.

    Warchalking gave me a great idea - on Halloween, kids should bring chalk and mark the paths to houses - different symbols for "gives money", "gives soy milk", or "gives good candy"!

  23. death to war chalking! SECURITY! by Vodak · · Score: 3, Informative

    Are these peoples bandwidth thieves? Perhaps. But if companies are so angered by the idea of war chalking then maybe they need to spread the world to secure wireless connections. Company needs to secure their connections wireless or otherwise or quit there bitching. plane and simple.

    Most consumers will look for days attempting to get the correct piece of hardware for the cheapest possible price. Yet these same people won't even crack open the manual about the default security settings.

    So if your not going to get off your dead ass and secure your wireless connection.... suffer

  24. Warchalk is art by Get+Behind+the+Mule · · Score: 2

    I wonder if someone could get Professor Touretzky of Carnegie-Mellon to set up a "Gallery of Warchalk Art".

    Check out his Gallery of CSS Descramblers.

  25. insecure wireless AP's? by Anonymous+Custard · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Unless the company owns the land and airspace where the wireless network reaches, people should be free to stand on public ground and use their computers. If there's a hilltop in a public park from which you can see and hear a concert, or athletic event, is it 'stealing' to sit on that hill and enjoy the entertainment? Any network administrator that allows an insecure wireless signal to be accessible from a sidewalk should know better.

    Companies can't just say, 'we're going to leave this [money, confidential documents, unprotected wireless AP] right where any chump on the sidewalk can get at them, but you can't touch them cause Nokia says it's stealing' and call it a security plan.

    It used to be OK; things were too technical for most people to understand. Similarly, locking mechanisms on bank safes used to be simple; now they're as complex as any sci-fi fan could dream of. And in the computer world, there's no excuse for any security-by-complexity setup less than large-prime algorithmic encrytption.

    1. Re:insecure wireless AP's? by l1gunman · · Score: 2, Insightful


      Unless the company owns the land and airspace where the wireless network reaches, people should be free to stand on public ground and use their computers. If there's a hilltop in a public park from which you can see and hear a concert, or athletic event, is it 'stealing' to sit on that hill and enjoy the entertainment? Any network administrator that allows an insecure wireless signal to be accessible from a sidewalk should know better.

      No way can that concert analogy come even close. Sitting any distance away and listening to the music that drifts out from an outdoor (or indoor) concert takes nothing from the promoters, the band, nor the paying audience. That is a freebie. Using a wireless network resource clearly consumes a limited resource that *is* being payed for by the legitimate users.

      As for leaving their beer on the sidewalk... just plain dumb. But, didn't anyone else's mother teach them not to take what they KNOW does not belong to them?

      Yup, the network admin should know better, but that doesn't make it right to take or use what is clearly not yours. If I mistakenly leave my frontdoor unlocked, it does not entitle anyone to come into my house, use my bathroom, drink my water, use my lights or anything of mine without my permission beforehand.

      Why can't a community of otherwise intelligent (?) technical individuals distinguish the difference? This *is* a matter of right and wrong. "Because it's there" works for climbing mountains, but not in this argument...

    2. Re:insecure wireless AP's? by Darth_Burrito · · Score: 2

      This *is* a matter of right and wrong. "Because it's there" works for climbing mountains, but not in this argument...

      I agree completely, it's there does not necessarily work for this argument. When I buy something off of amazon.com, my computer represents me in a financial transaction. Amazon's servers represent Amazon by providing information and processing capabilities to enable the transaction. If I am sitting on a park bench and ask the people across the street for use of their wireless network, and a representative of their company/apartment/whatever authorizes me, how have I done anything morally or legally wrong?

      If I host an open website containing my social security number, address, email, and phone number with the idea in my head that only financial institutions will access this information... are you morally in the wrong for going to this webpage? Are you legally in the wrong? I personally did not grant you permission to view this information, but my computer, my representative in the data transaction did authorize you to view it.

    3. Re:insecure wireless AP's? by Fjord · · Score: 2

      Sitting any distance away and listening to the music that drifts out from an outdoor (or indoor) concert takes nothing from the promoters, the band, nor the paying audience.

      But Hillary Rosen told me it does.

      --
      -no broken link
  26. Theft By Confusion by DarkZero · · Score: 2

    Essentially, what we have here is a bunch of people putting stuff out for free and a another bunch of people putting the same thing out and not intending for anyone to take it. How is anyone supposed to tell the difference? Is the impetus on the user to try to differentiate between dozens of servers offering free bandwidth or on the servers to decide whether or not they want to give something out for free?

    To me, and while I know this analogy seems strange, this seems a lot like neighborhood garbage collection. If the guys on the garbage truck see anything near the curb, they take it. They don't know the difference between someone throwing out a chair and someone accidentally leaving a small piece of furniture outside for a few minutes. It is the responsibility of the homeowner to make sure that they don't leave anything out near the curb that the garbage men might accidentally take, not the responsibility of the garbage men to walk up to everyone's door and say, "Excuse me, ma'am, do we have permission to take this? I know you probably meant for it to be thrown out, but we thought we should wake you up to make sure".

    I know that hackers (in the broad sense of the word) often say that it is the responsibility of the network administrators to secure their networks rather than the responsibility fo the hackers to not invade open networks, usually with little justification, but in this rare instance, I think it really does apply. It's the responsibility of the network administrators to secure their network that looks just like the free ones and could easily be mistaken as such, just as the it's the responsibility of the homeowner that doesn't want their piece of furniture taken by the garbage men to keep it away from the street where they would mistake it for trash.

  27. Well, Okay... by stinky+wizzleteats · · Score: 5, Funny

    I guess it is theft. Warchalkers are performing wireless security audits for free, thus stealing from themselves.

    1. Re:Well, Okay... by ProfMoriarty · · Score: 2
      Hey ... now this is a business plan ...

      1) Walk around performing wireless security audits ...
      2) Send bills to the companies ...
      3) ???
      4) Profit!

      Hmmmm ... hopefully 3 isn't defending yourself from hordes of lawyers ...

      --
      Karma? Karma? I don't need no stinkin' karma.
  28. Theft? by miffo.swe · · Score: 2

    How can it be theft? If i toss my copies of my secret papers of off a tall building i cant really blame the pople below for spying if they read them. likewise i cant really blame someone if they snoop on my poorly configured wireless network.

    That aside i arent that impressed of wireless networks inside offices. Wireless is maybe god where people move around all the time but in an office people tends to work at the same place. It has its place but today everybody and his mother is installing it without thinking about pros and cons even a single second.

    --
    HTTP/1.1 400
  29. Re:Theft? by fluch · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...but if they leave their chalk lying around the street unatended, is it a crime to pick it up?

  30. WRONG!! by billmaly · · Score: 2

    If you don't want people borrowing your bandwidth, either don't use it, or employ encryption to prevent it. Don't cry theft when your half assed wireless LAN is used by others OUTSIDE of your building.

    However, if people use your access and cause havoc, different story. But still.....who left the door unlocked????

    1. Re:WRONG!! by NineNine · · Score: 2

      And if you don't want me using your car, you'd better keep it locked, booted, and use The Club. Otherwise, you left the door unlocked.

  31. What is theft? What is permission? by nuggz · · Score: 2

    Theft is when something is taken from the owner by someone else without their permission.

    Warchalking is not theft, using the networks they indicate may be.
    You are using someone elses bandwidth, however do you have their permission.

    When someone broadcasts TV or radio signals it is generally accepted they are giving you permission to use these broadcast signals.
    When someone leaves a locked car in a parking lot they are not giving you permission to take their car.

    Newspapers in a bin are free for the taking, those in a box accepting coins you are expected to pay.

    Is an open publicly broadcasted network a locked box explicity denying without authorization, or is it a public broadcast open to all.

  32. RTFA by IIRCAFAIKIANAL · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Nowhere in the article does it say that someone that simply chalks a sidewalk is a thief!

    An advisory issued by the handset maker said anyone using bandwidth without the permission of the person paying for it was simply stealing. ...

    Now Nokia has joined the chorus of criticism by saying that anyone who sits outside an office and uses a company's wireless network to do their own web surfing is stealing.

    "This is theft, plain and simple," wrote Nokia in its advisory.

    The company said that anyone using a company's bandwidth without permission is reducing the amount of a valuable resource available to the workers in that organisation. ...

    Nokia warned that if too many warchalkers log on together, the whole network inside a company could slow down.


    It says anyone that actually logs in is technically a thief. That's it. It does not say that someone that leaves a chalk symbol is with that act alone a theif.

    Let's pay attention to the distinctions, people!

    --
    Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.
    1. Re:RTFA by IIRCAFAIKIANAL · · Score: 2

      To be clear, what Nokia has done is indicated that logging into an insecure network (much like opening an unlocked door to someones house - someones gonna hate that analogy, but anyway) is an act of theft (they say, not me)

      and

      that warchalking is part of the scene

      and

      the people writing the symbols are often the ones logging into the networks (though that last comment is mostly suggested by the article and not explicitely written).

      --
      Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.
  33. Slashdot and BBC article are titled wrongly by Mr_Silver · · Score: 5, Informative
    Does not sound like warchalking cleanly fits the definition of theft to me.

    You're right, except that both the Slashdot title and the BBC title are wrong. Quote the BBC:

    Now Nokia has joined the chorus of criticism by saying that anyone who sits outside an office and uses a company's wireless network to do their own web surfing is stealing.

    "This is theft, plain and simple," wrote Nokia in its advisory.

    The company said that anyone using a company's bandwidth without permission is reducing the amount of a valuable resource available to the workers in that organisation.


    (emphasis mine)

    So actually, what Nokia is saying is that sitting outside a company and using their bandwidth is stealing and not actually the act of warchalking.

    --
    Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
    1. Re:Slashdot and BBC article are titled wrongly by Ctrl-Z · · Score: 2


      Well, yes. At the very least you would be trespassing and/or loitering. Many companies have protection from such theft of service.

      --
      www.timcoleman.com is a total waste of your time. Never go there.
    2. Re:Slashdot and BBC article are titled wrongly by lynx_user_abroad · · Score: 2, Insightful
      So actually, what Nokia is saying is that sitting outside a company and using their bandwidth is stealing and not actually the act of warchalking.

      That granted, it still begs a question. Suppose I run my wireless access point with the intention of providing free access as a courtsey to those who choose to access the net in my area. Are the people who access my AP thieves? If they arent; how do they know that they aren't? Have the people who warchalk the site done anything (other than minor graffiti) wrong?

      We can translate the question into a more common domain: If I read a newspaper by the light of Billboard, or shelter from the rain under the Tailor Shop canopy as I pass to the Butcher shop, or sip from a company's water fountain, am I guilty of theft?

      If I'm "accessing someone elses network wirelessly, where no authorization was required", am I a their, or a happy customer? And how am I supposed to know the difference?

      These are not "unauthorized users", because the AP can enforce authorization, but the entity which owns the AP has chosen (or is too clueless) to not require any. I can't think of a better way to distinguish between access which is being provided as a courtsey (and doesn't requite "authorization" and access which is "for use by authorized personnel only" and requires authorization.

      I don't agree with people who assert that the loss of service due to "people you didn't know about" using your network wirelessly amounts to theft. If you are responsible for a site, you can keep people from accessing it wirelessly if you want to.

      Many companies use fences and locked doors to keep Joe Public from going where they are not wanted, and cameras to keep track of who is going where in those cases where seperating the authorized from the unauthorized is not otherwise fesible. Similar tools exist for the wireless environment and they generally work even better. You just might have to hire a clued network admin (just like you hired a clued fence installer and survelliance camera installer) but the results are just as good.

      --

      The thing about things we don't know is we often don't know we don't know them.

    3. Re:Slashdot and BBC article are titled wrongly by Darth_Burrito · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Laptop: Hello, is anyone out there? Can I have an ip address please? Anyone?

      Wireless Access Point: Of course, here you go. The company I represent has configured me to route packets for you. Have a nice day.

      Nokia: Unauthorized Access!!! Thief!!!

      Wireless Access Point: Uh, oh. Am I fired?

    4. Re:Slashdot and BBC article are titled wrongly by killmenow · · Score: 2
      Many companies use fences and locked doors to keep Joe Public from going where they are not wanted, and cameras to keep track of who is going where in those cases where seperating the authorized from the unauthorized is not otherwise fesible. Similar tools exist for the wireless environment and they generally work even better. You just might have to hire a clued network admin (just like you hired a clued fence installer and survelliance camera installer) but the results are just as good.
      So if I don't put locks on my doors, when someone walks into my house and makes a 1-900 call on my phone, eats some of the food in my fridge, takes a dump in my crapper, sits on my couch and watches cable, and otherwise utilizes my home without authorization, they're not stealing right? Because, there are steps I can take and since I haven't it must be that I *want* people to do this. Or if I don't, it's my own damn fault for not being smart enough to put a lock on my door...and use it.

      I respectully disagree. Not putting locks on doors, building fences, or requiring authorization on WAPs may be a dumb thing to do because you *know* someone's going to take advantage sooner or later. But those taking advantage of my lapse in judgement are still breaking the law.

      Whether it represents trespass or theivery, I don't know. That seems a semantic argument best left to lawyers, but it's definitely wrong.
    5. Re:Slashdot and BBC article are titled wrongly by lynx_user_abroad · · Score: 3, Insightful
      So if I don't put locks on my doors, when someone walks into my house...

      That's not how wireless works. Your house does not continually broadcast to the street and other areas "There's a house here! Here's how you get to the front door! You'll need a DHCP badge to get any service from the butler, here's one you can use...", etc, etc.

      A more fitting analogy would be if you were to establish a public establishment (a bar, for example), advertise a grand opening, and then someone walks into your bar...

      and makes a 1-900 call on my phone, eats some of the food in my fridge, takes a dump in my crapper, sits on my couch and watches cable...

      Kinds changes things, doesn't it? Your bartender likely has a specific policy about allowing your patrons to make 1-900 calls, the fridge is likely behind the door to the kitchen, or at least behind the bar (both are understood to be access control mechanisms) but you probably don't mind too much about the peanuts on the bar, allowing others to use the WC is a given, so is sitting on the furnature and watching the telly.

      ...and otherwise utilizes my home without authorization, they're not stealing right?

      If they're doing it without authorization, then they're stealing. If they're doing it with authorization, they are your guests. Wireless (and other computerized) services offer you (as the host) a common, difinitive, simple, clear and automatic method to unambiguously differentiate between those you would consider thieves and those you would consider guests. All you have to do is use it.

      Here's another one of life's little secrets; if you want people to cooperate and do what you want, you have to at least tell them what you want. If I were to visit your house, I believe I'd find ample clues as to whether or not I'm invited in, if I can grab a beer from the fridge, etc. If I need to make a phone call, I'll ask. If it has to be a 1-900 call, I'll ask that too. Your (presumed) wireless access point can (and does) answer the questions my wireless card asks, and can implement whatever policy you (as the administrator) see fit.

      Because, there are steps I can take and since I haven't it must be that I *want* people to do this. Or if I don't, it's my own damn fault for not being smart enough to put a lock on my door...and use it.

      It's no different than assuming that people will see the actions you have taken and the steps you could have, but didn't take and deciding that you don't want people to do this. You can't expect people to read your mind.

      I respectully disagree. Not putting locks on doors, building fences, or requiring authorization on WAPs may be a dumb thing to do because you *know* someone's going to take advantage sooner or later. But those taking advantage of my lapse in judgement are still breaking the law.

      Then in the same spirit, I would respectfully request that you do leave some signal for those of us that might misinterpret your actions.

      If you don't want we accessing your AP, that's your call entirely. I have no intention to take that which you would not willingly give. But I don't read minds. If I honestly can't tell the difference between someone intentionally offering a service freely and someone inadvertently offering a service freely, I'm likely to interpret the situation in the manner which is most favorable to me. And I'd submit most people will do the same. A simple tech note in the broadcast saying "private access point" will stop me (perhaps not others) but if you won't even exercise that due dilligence, you must accept some of the blame.

      --

      The thing about things we don't know is we often don't know we don't know them.

    6. Re:Slashdot and BBC article are titled wrongly by kasparov · · Score: 3, Insightful
      So walking into other people's houses is fine as long as the door is unlocked right? Might as well make a sandwich and watch some TV while you're there too. Maybe take a shower, use the toilet, etc.

      Completely different. It would be more equivalent to shouting, "Hey! Will someone let me in their house?" And the person's butler (who they have given instructions to) opens the door and says, "Sure! Come on in!" There is no attempt at entering where it can be presumed that you should not. You merely requested an IP address from any source that would give you one. If someplace doesn't want "outsiders" to connect to their network, it is trivial to configure the access point to not hand them an IP. Merely turning on WEP (although completely insecure) would still show that "This network is off-limits."

      --
      There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity.
    7. Re:Slashdot and BBC article are titled wrongly by _Knots · · Score: 2

      Alright, this analogy is REALLY STARTING TO PISS ME OFF. It's wrong, plain and simple.

      Leaving your door unlocked actually requires somebody to attempt to open the door. Leaving the door wide open is slightly better because then it's easy to see with observation.

      The WAPs are actually *broadcasting* packets - the equivelant of "HEY! LOOK AT ME! I'M OPEN AND YOU CAN TALK TO ME IF YOU WANT TO!" It's like putting an active neon sign on your lawn reading "Yes, we're open!"

      And if your DHCP server is set up to honor DHCP requests from *anybody* - even moreso. Yes, yes, I'm sure you'll say that "oh, well, my fridge is set up to honor requests from anybody, so..." Sure, that's so, but a DHCP answer is more active than opening a door - it's actually transmitting a message saying "go ahead, talk to us!" - again, a sign on the fridge saying "Take anything you like."

      Please, understand that pushing what amounts to "yes you may use my resources" messages out the door means that, yes, we may use your resources. Deal with it.

      --Knots;

      --
      Anarchy$ dd if=/dev/random of=~/.signature bs=120 count=1
    8. Re:Slashdot and BBC article are titled wrongly by killmenow · · Score: 2
      You can't expect people to read your mind.
      That's true. And, as someone else already pointed out: permission cannot be assumed. It must be given explicitly. I submit that simply because a machine (non-sentient) adheres to a protocol and "answers" your laptop, one cannot logically equate that to explicit authorization. The machine does not know who you are. It does not *know* anything. It is just operating according to spec.

      It seems to me this argument that because the machine functions, it is "authorizing" you to use it, the owner must be authorizing it is a bit thin. I think your instincts can tell you in any given situation whether the owners are likely to want you to use their stuff (be it a bathroom or a WLAN).

      On your final note (who accepts blame) I'll have to agree with the rape analogy. What you're saying reminds me of people who think that because a woman dresses suggestively, acts flirtatious, and gets a little drunk that she bears some part of the blame for being raped. She doesn't. She ought to have known better, but because she didn't, it does not in any way make her the least bit culpable for getting assualted.

      No more than me driving like an ass makes me partly to blame for that guy waving his gun and taking shots at me on the highway.

      Of course, what this has to do with wireless networking and warchalking, I don't know.
    9. Re:Slashdot and BBC article are titled wrongly by analog_line · · Score: 2

      Yes, and the person who misconfigured the wireless access point.

      Merely connecting isn't theft. Using that connection to access bandwidth resources paid for by the company IS theft, without the company's permission.

      If a delivery driver drops some computers off outside a company, and they both go in to get help moving it inside, and you swipe one while no one is looking, they were pretty idiotic to leave their stuff unguarded, but doesn't make you any less a thief.

    10. Re:Slashdot and BBC article are titled wrongly by Dun+Malg · · Score: 2

      Many companies have protection from such theft of service.

      Actually, "theft of service" is a complete non-sequiter. Theft is the taking of real property, while a service is useful labor that does not produce a tangible commodity. One cannot steal that which does not physically exist. In this case, one might access servies without permission, but then that brings up the issue of implied consent. If they charged "unauthorized access", then Nokia et.al would have to explain why a node essentially broadcasting a message of "all are welcome" isn't implied consent. Better to simply label it "theft", because the law regarding theft doesn't consider implied consent except under very strange conditions. This may seem like a minor distinction, but it's very important. Calling it "theft" is an attempt to frame the transgressors as worse than they really are. It's like calling someone who runs over a cat a murderer.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    11. Re:Slashdot and BBC article are titled wrongly by nevets · · Score: 2

      I never liked the analogy of "going into someone's house is fine if the door is left open". It's used a lot when talking about scanning ports (where the analogy is way off). But here it is a better used but still wrong. The thing most desturbing about someone walking into my home is that they may do physical harm to me or to my family. Since I expect no physical harm from either port scanning or taking wireless ip for free, the analogy to me is just plain wrong.

      But I understand your point and my analogy would be that if you left your bike out on your driveway then it would be ok for someone to take it. This is theft just like the stealing of bandwidth.

      --
      Steven Rostedt
      -- Nevermind
    12. Re:Slashdot and BBC article are titled wrongly by Darth_Burrito · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Using that connection to access bandwidth resources paid for by the company IS theft, without the company's permission.

      Agreed. However, we let machines represent ourselves every day for monetary and data transactions. When a WAP boradcasts in a public medium and grants access to an arbitrary client, it is acting as a representative of the owners. Such a grant of access constitutes authorization of network use in the same way an anonymous ftp server authorizes upload or download of files to it.

    13. Re:Slashdot and BBC article are titled wrongly by Dun+Malg · · Score: 2

      That's true. And, as someone else already pointed out: permission cannot be assumed. It must be given explicitly.

      The problem with that argument is that it is totally false. There are innumerable instances where permission is assumed and because it's not given explicitly. Ever park in a parking lot? Use the bathroom at a mall? Browse around a garage sale? The law has quite a bit already regarding something called implied consent.

      I think your instincts can tell you in any given situation whether the owners are likely to want you to use their stuff (be it a bathroom or a WLAN).

      The law doesn't recognize "instincts", but it does reference the actions of Reasonable and Prudent people. Yes, a reasonable and prudent person will be able to discern whether consent is or is not implied at either end of the spectrum, but what we're really talking about here is the grey area in the middle. I'm sitting in Denny's and my 802.11b card goes green. There's a starbuck's across the street, a bagel shop next to it, and apartments past that. Where's the WAP? Dunno. It's not protected, so maybe it's a free service from Denny's. Or Starbuck's. Or some dude in his apartment. The point is, requiring explicit permission for WAP access is as untenable as requiring permission to use a shopping mall. If the door is open and people are inside, is it open to the public? If you want to keep people out, you have to excercise a little responsibility.

      .

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    14. Re:Slashdot and BBC article are titled wrongly by Ctrl-Z · · Score: 2


      Actually, "theft of service" is a complete non-sequiter. Theft is the taking of real property, while a service is useful labor that does not produce a tangible commodity. One cannot steal that which does not physically exist. In this case, one might access servies without permission, but then that brings up the issue of implied consent. If they charged "unauthorized access", then Nokia et.al would have to explain why a node essentially broadcasting a message of "all are welcome" isn't implied consent.

      Okay, this is all well and good, but what would you say if I tapped into the telephone box outside my home to get "free" service? I suppose you might say that it doesn't say "all are welcome" on it, especially if it is locked. But what if a technician left it unlocked and I decided to use this opportunity to make long-distance calls to Taiwan? Does the act of leaving the box unlocked constitute implied consent?

      Similarly, does an admin who doesn't know how to lock down their wireless network mean that his employer implied consent for the public to use the exposed bandwidth indiscriminately?

      In the end, if you steal a service from an individual or a company, somebody will pay the cost. Just because you aren't taking something from them does not mean that they aren't paying the price in the end.

      --
      www.timcoleman.com is a total waste of your time. Never go there.
    15. Re:Slashdot and BBC article are titled wrongly by DustMagnet · · Score: 2
      But *YOU* still have to tell *YOUR* laptop/whatever to search for the open WAPs, right?

      From what I hear it's the default in Windows to associate and DHCP with any access point on your channel if you never both to set your SSID (a common but foolish practice). I once read an interview with someone from Microsoft saying how he and Bill Gates used someones network without their knowledge. I wish I could find that link.

      --
      'SBEMAIL!' is better than a goat!!
    16. Re:Slashdot and BBC article are titled wrongly by kasparov · · Score: 3, Informative
      Still completely different. You are having to scan the "code" for the alarmed vehicle. You are in fact doing a brute force attack. Requesting a DHCP address is nothing of the sort. DHCP is a standard for handing out IP addresses. There is no authentication. It is designed to give out an address to ANY machine that requests it. For more information, see RFC 2131.

      Again, if some type of security is added (like WEP), then proactive measures have to be taken to "break in"--much like building an RF scanning device would be the proactive measure that you would have to take to disarm the car alarm in you example.

      --
      There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity.
    17. Re:Slashdot and BBC article are titled wrongly by bogie · · Score: 2

      Me at your door: Hello is anyone there?

      Your Door: I'm open, come right in. The people who own me left my configured in the open position.

      You: Burglar!!!

      Your Door: Uh oh.

      --
      If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
    18. Re:Slashdot and BBC article are titled wrongly by geekoid · · Score: 2

      nit pic:
      of course, there is only real loss when the usage hits 100% of there availble bandwidth.

      my opinion, if it's on an available to the public banfwidth, and there is no "no tresspassing" logins, then its fair.

      It would be unfair to the consumer to make themhave to just 'know' the difference between the free set-up the local wi-fi club sets up, and some companies wide open system.

      If you have a wireless system, use a password or perferable a secureid, and encryption.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    19. Re:Slashdot and BBC article are titled wrongly by nevets · · Score: 2

      Again I don't care for either of those two analogies because checking doors of someone's house still implies that the person doing so intends to do physical harm. I'm not worried about someone who port scans my machine is going to kidnap my children, but I would worry about someone who's checking to see if my home is locked or not.

      There's a big difference between having your computer compromised and having your children killed. And if you disagree then you are obviously not a parent.

      --
      Steven Rostedt
      -- Nevermind
    20. Re:Slashdot and BBC article are titled wrongly by Dun+Malg · · Score: 2

      Okay, this is all well and good, but what would you say if I tapped into the telephone box outside my home to get "free" service? I suppose you might say that it doesn't say "all are welcome" on it, especially if it is locked. But what if a technician left it unlocked and I decided to use this opportunity to make long-distance calls to Taiwan? Does the act of leaving the box unlocked constitute implied consent?

      No. For one thing, all the equipment and is plastered with "Property of [GTE|???-Bell|etc]". This, combined with the fact that we already have public phones and any reasonable and prudent person knows they aren't inside that green monument box by the road, and don't require a can wrench and buttset to use. The problem with WAPs is that they use radio, and it has been fairly firmly established that radio signals in public places are free for public consumption. Any exception to this is specifically legislated (such as the Cell band freqs).

      Similarly, does an admin who doesn't know how to lock down their wireless network mean that his employer implied consent for the public to use the exposed bandwidth indiscriminately?

      Frankly, yes. If you install a drinking fountain by the sidewalk, do you have any room to complain that passers-by are using it? How hard will the authorities laugh when you show up at the Police station with photos of people using your drinking fountain, demanding that they be tracked down and arrested for unauthorized accessing of water? The point is, the law is clear in a myriad of ways that if you place something in a public place, it is up to you to keep the public from using it (via locks, encryption, etc) if that's what you want.

      In the end, if you steal a service from an individual or a company, somebody will pay the cost. Just because you aren't taking something from them does not mean that they aren't paying the price in the end.

      This is entirely beside the point. Despite the fact that it costs money, there are indeed some people who give it away, either as promotional gimmickry or just because. Stating that it's not free for the provider says nothing about the provider's intent.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    21. Re:Slashdot and BBC article are titled wrongly by Dun+Malg · · Score: 2

      No matter how you cut it, it is stealing. Stealing MONEY. Not realized money. But money that will come out of the companies productivity and out of some bill somewhere.
      Maybe criminal tresspass, and criminal neglegance, would be more usefull? I still belive its theft. Plus the other 2. But thats just my opinion...


      I'm sorry, but your opinion (by dictionary and legal definition of "theft") is provably wrong. Actual money in your pocket (or its virtual representation in your bank account) is indeed real property. Money that you never made is NOT real property. The distiction is important because theft of real property is a criminal matter (that means jail is a possibility), whereas "lost wages/revenue/productivity" is handled in civil court (monetary judgement, NO jail). Please understand, I'm not saying that unauthorized access of network resources is OK; I merely object to the attempt to label it as "theft". The stealing of real property always results in one person gaining said property at the expense of the previous posessor, and as such is nearly universally regarded as a Bad Thing (though extenuating circumstances are occasionally considered). Intent is rarely relevant in cases of theft because, in the end, someone took someone else's stuff. Intent is, however, very relevant in cases of trespass, unautorized access, etc. While the old saying may be "ignorance of the law is no excuse", in cases like that it can mean the difference between a small civil judgement and 6 months in the slam. The problem I see is that Large Entities with Vested Interests are attempting to redefine the language to make their targets (WAP snoopers, CD/DVD copying folks) appear premeditatedly malicious. While they may personally think it's as bad a actual theft, no amount of PR flacking will make it actually be theft. It's like the opponents of abortion here in the states when they say "abortion is murder". This is provably false. Murder is the unlawful taking of a human life. Abortion is legal. Therefore, it CANNOT be murder. The phrase is intended to arrouse passions rather than argue facts (a tactic that makes me uneasy). I understand their opposition, but no matter how much they dislike it, it's not murder.
      I just want people to not buy into wholesale redefinitions of words. I hate to bring up something as worn out and hackneyed as 1984, but Orwell wasn't just whistling dixie about control of the language.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
  34. Right on: Public space = accessible to everyone by Tune · · Score: 2

    Or...

    Is it theft to listen to the music comming from a car passing by? Is it theft to look into a shopping window without the intent of buying anything? If so, I'd have to agree with Nokia, otherwise they're just talking utter nonsense.

    --
    Facts are stupid things -- R. Reagan

  35. They would not notice? by Elpenor · · Score: 5, Funny

    "Nokia warned that if too many warchalkers log on together, the whole network inside a company could slow down."

    They would not noitce, 200 people sitting on the sidewalk outside their building with laptops??

    Elp

    --
    "You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means..." Inigo Montoya
  36. Not theft by Diamon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Obvisouly you can't go prosecuting theft when you can't casually determine the difference between a network that is non-deliberately insecure and one that is deliberately open. It's like me putting my telephone outside my house with not restrictions on it and complianing someone used it to make a phone call.

    1. Re:Not theft by nuggz · · Score: 2

      Exactly, at my school there are a few "public phones" for free local calls.
      Basically just sitting out in the hallway are free phones, I don't see how this is much different from a broadcast network.

  37. Nokia has vested interests here.. by xtal · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm sure everyone is aware that Nokia isn't without a vested interest in what's going on here right? If the concept of freely available or at least tolerated wireless 'borrowing' catches on, it -will- hurt the adoption of horribly overpriced 3G solutions which they have an extremely large investment in seeing through. In many ways, a decentralized wireless infrastructure makes a lot more sense and it is feasible with things like 802.11 and the derivative technologies that will happen.

    It is definately in their self-interest to make this activity heavily illegal, but everyone should remember they are far from a casual onlooker.

    --
    ..don't panic
  38. Theft? by Ctrl-Z · · Score: 2


    Hmmm...I would think that warchalking would be closer to vandalism than theft. But then again, this isn't much different in my opinion than what happened to napster.

    --
    www.timcoleman.com is a total waste of your time. Never go there.
  39. Wireless Warchalkers call Nokia Idiots by ch-chuck · · Score: 2

    sounds like a good bizarro world anti-headline.

    'Crime' is basically whatever those bozos in congress say it is - for instance, tuning into and listening to analog cell phone conversations that come thru the wall of your house by using an old tv uhf tuner is a crime, because the US law says so. The law says so because the cell phone industry lobbied congress to make it so, so they could tell their customers, "Your conversations a re completely private, as guarenteed by federal law".

    Good lord, you won't believe what people talk about when they *think* they're having a private conversation - drug deals, endless babblings about relationships. I actually heard this yahoo call his wife from the truck and say, "Honey, I'm in desperate need of a blow job".

    --
    try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
    1. Re:Wireless Warchalkers call Nokia Idiots by NineNine · · Score: 2

      'Crime' is basically whatever those bozos in congress say it is

      Yes, it's called "civilization". Welcome to it. You must be new. "Civilization" is this thing where groups of people live and work together, organized by things called "governments" which make rules that everybody abides by called "laws". Luckily, there are many governments on the planet Earth that you can choose to live under.

  40. Satellite by nuggz · · Score: 2

    If you don't want me to have something, don't send it to me.

    And I think the courts are wrong.

  41. Re:From dictionary.com ... by N3WBI3 · · Score: 2

    Excuse me who are you to decide if your depriving them of service? Many companies use a great deal of their bandwidth.. If I walk into a bank and steal 50 dollars of 500k in their guess what... Im still stealing..

    --
  42. Re:Theft? by cybermace5 · · Score: 2

    ....wireless networks inside offices. Wireless is maybe god where people....

    Wireless is really cool and everything, but it's got a long way to go before it becomes a religion! Do you have your WAP in a little shrine?

    Although, religion usually is wireless....

    --
    ...
  43. Re:locked car by nuggz · · Score: 2

    In the UK if you can gain entry to a car that is unlocked or locked,you can have a sleep, or do whatever you want so long as you don't steal anything or damage the car.

    Convertibles must be popular.

  44. Well, they have a point by jht · · Score: 2

    Bandwidth is not free. I pay for x amount of bandwidth to my home or business. If someone mooches off that, they are taking a resource that I paid for and using it without my permission. That's theft.

    It's not like cable TV, where your decoding a signal doesn't take away from the service I paid for for myself. It isn't legal, but it's not hurting me. Ironically, it's kind of the exact opposite - stealing my service hurts me, but it doesn't hurt my ISP, because they already allocated the bandwidth to me and they're being compensated for it. Stealing cable TV doesn't hurt me, but it does hurt the cable TV company (you're depriving them of the revenue they're entitled to for stringing the cable past your house and plugging you in).

    As for my own wireless, I WEP it and keep the network closed. I have yet to see chalk in front of my house (I do see a lot of open networks in my neighborhood lately), but if I were sufficiently motivated to set up a firewall between my base station and LAN I'd proably open it up. I just lack the time or motivation. Having a 4-month-old has a strange ability to play havoc with your technical priorities... :-)

    --
    -- Josh Turiel
    "2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
    1. Re:Well, they have a point by Arcturax · · Score: 2

      Well, first thing, they should have this little thing called SECURITY in place to prevent the average Joe from accessing their network in the first place!

      If these companies would secure their wireless network they would not have this problem.

      --

      --Won't that be grand? Computers and the programs will start thinking and the people will stop. - Dr. Walter Gibbs
    2. Re:Well, they have a point by jht · · Score: 2

      Yes and no - they'd be less likely to have a problem if they secured it, but we all know that 802.11b isn't secure to begin with. That doesn't give someone the right to use it, though.

      If I leave my door unlocked you don't have a right to enter my house and use things. You only have that right if I invite you in and grant you permission. IANAL, but there's no way you could have a legal link that equates not protecting your wireless LAN adequately with permission to use it.

      --
      -- Josh Turiel
      "2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
    3. Re:Well, they have a point by Arcturax · · Score: 2

      Perhaps they should invest in having it fixed then? Certainly if it is not secure, someone should be working on a way to make it secure.

      I am not saying that the people doing this are justified, but it is like leaving your car windows down and doors unlocked in a bad area of town. You are just asking for people to take your stereo.

      As for 802.11, from what I understand, you can at least limit who can casually connect. The insecurity becomes a problem when you have dedicated crackers trying to break in, and that is why they should be actively pushing for fixes to the security flaws in the standard.

      --

      --Won't that be grand? Computers and the programs will start thinking and the people will stop. - Dr. Walter Gibbs
  45. What about... by Overzeetop · · Score: 2

    If I go around checking the doors of business which are on "public" property, and where I find one unlocked I put up a sign that says "this door is unlocked," is that illegal?

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  46. And you wonder why they call OSS people theives.. by N3WBI3 · · Score: 2
    Sreiously lets look at this. We piss and moan every time someone equated the Open Source culture with stealing, the RIAA and the MPAA call us theives (many of us are) and try to protect what they consider to be their IP. They go way to far, we cry bloddy hell about free speech, and point out that just becaus esomeone steals does not mean you restrict the right of someone who obeys the law

    Now something like this Nokia article comes along and what do we do:
    1) Play the 133t card 'Well if their network is that insecure they deserv to have bandwidth stolen
    2) Play the Word game '***TECHNICALLY** its not stealing because of x,y,z'
    3) Play the They can afford it card 'Well Nokia charges too much so they cant complain'

    Its pathetic and its beneath us, if we dont want to be preceived as theivs lets not act like them..

    Sorry for the rant, my 2cents..

    --
  47. Public Kiosks/Public Wireless by tarsi210 · · Score: 2

    Ok. Scenario:

    I put a computer, hooked to my company's internal network, on the front steps of the company. It's just sitting there with the screen on the Windows desktop. No keyboard, no mouse.

    All of a sudden, someone comes along, plugs in a keyboard and starts using the service. Should I be mad? Is he an instant theif?

    What's the legislation here, folks? What determines when something that is publically accessible is privately controllable? There has to be some point at which breaking past certain barriers is considered "illegal". If said computer on the front steps had a fence around it with a lock and a security login program on the screen, breaking past that seems a bit more illegal to me than simply coming along and using a very open resource.

    At some point, things that are private become public, too. Sidewalks, for instance. Maintained by private companies and people and available for public use. Defining that point is necessary, especially for wireless due to its nature of not staying between visible barriers.

  48. Our response to "nokie" by uncoveror · · Score: 3, Funny

    We, the wireless networking users, have taken Nokia's comments under careful consideration, and have issued our response. Thank you, and have a nice day. :)

    --
    The Uncoveror: It's the real news.
  49. Re:How is it different? by chill · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Listening to their music is passive. Using someone else's network consumes resources and possibly denies those resources to the company paying for it.

    Corporate Internet connections are frequently bandwidth metered or bandwidth limited. "Burstable" connections are where the price increases as usage increases. Your usage increases bandwidt and thus has the potential for increasing their cost.

    --
    Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
  50. We're focusing on the wrong question anyway by mosch · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The real question here is why does Nokia have an opinion on the matter, and why should anybody care what their opinion is anyway?

    They're not lawyers. They're not law makers. They're not chalkers. They probably aren't even getting chalked. So why does anybody give a flying fuck about their opinion?

    1. Re:We're focusing on the wrong question anyway by pclminion · · Score: 3, Funny
      So why does anybody give a flying fuck about their opinion?

      Because they're Finnish!!^$@!%^#$

      Dude, I said they're from Finland!!! And that's where Linus is from!!&!&^@%!

    2. Re:We're focusing on the wrong question anyway by glesga_kiss · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Very insightful. Wireless is anti-Nokia and is not in their interests. A nationwide community wireless network might destroy their investment in 3G. Alteriour motives methinks...

      Just wait until VOIP and WEP become big. Mobile phones as we know them could be obselete. It's all converging anyway...

    3. Re:We're focusing on the wrong question anyway by biglig2 · · Score: 2

      Well, Nokia are a major vendor of wireless networking gear, so they have an opinion. I expect Chevvy have an opinion on drunk driving, and Hershey an opinion on childhood diabetes.

      --
      ~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?
    4. Re:We're focusing on the wrong question anyway by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      I can tell you that the military owns a bunch of nokia firewalls. I doubt there's any conspiracy at work here, but you never know :)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  51. They do make WAN/WLAN gear by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 3, Informative

    http://www.linux-wlan.org/index.html

    Check it out. They make Prism2-based 802.11 devices.

    No 11b devices listed there, but I wouldn't be surprised that if they had classic 802.11, they have 802.11b

    If WAN rather than WLAN was not a typo, they make plenty of WAN equipment too. Check their site. http://www.nokia.com/

    http://www.nokia.com/phones/nokiad211/d311_speci fi cations.html - Slick, huh?

    A lot of cellular companies see 802.11 as augmenting 3G, not competing with it. Or more properly, 3G as augmenting 802.11. 802.11 for your 'net in the cities and 3G out in the boonies.

    --
    retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
  52. You have to wonder... by Arcturax · · Score: 2

    Why they don't just secure their fucking networks instead of bitching to Nokia and the FBI about it.

    If I left my car unlocked and with the windows down and my stereo gets stolen, the cops would tell me it was my own fault for leaving the car unsecured and probably not bother looking for the thief. So I think it should be the same with these companies. The FBI should tell them to secure their network and only come to them if someone forces their way in.

    --

    --Won't that be grand? Computers and the programs will start thinking and the people will stop. - Dr. Walter Gibbs
  53. Re:How is it different? by N+Monkey · · Score: 2
    The equivalent would be if you were listening and as a result they heard less of their own music.

    I suppose, being rather pedantic here, that the new listener being present would "reduce" the amount of music the original listener could hear simply because he might be absorbing some of the echo.

    Anyway, I think the original analogy was rather flawed. It's not the listening that's really the problem but that the new user has pulled up in another car with a loud stereo that is drowning out the original car's sound system.
  54. What About Deliberately Open Nodes? by mikeplokta · · Score: 2

    Does anyone know Nokia's position on warchalking to identify "community" wireless nodes that are intentionally open for all to use? Seems hard to equate that with theft.

  55. Do they know what "unregulated" means? by autopr0n · · Score: 2

    If they don't want people taking their bandwidth, then they should A) use WEP, or B) not use a band that's UNREGULATED by the FCC.

    I mean, how stupid can these people be? for a metaphore, imagine the 'commons' grazing land for cows or whatever (except practicaly unlimited in size). It's like nokia claming that people are stealing their cattle's food because you ride your cows in with their heard. or something.

    --
    autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
  56. nokia is stifling a move in the right direction by Khopesh · · Score: 2

    I have a previous comment that illustrates my point on how wireless networks will evolve that I will summarize here:

    basically, the future will see a free inter-networking of wireless networks.
    each network will, like the freenet, act as a router to carry on to the next network
    and even pdas (once battery life and antennae become more efficient) will route,
    allowing for chained connections in tunnels and other dead areas.
    companies like nokia will make money on the devices but not the services.

    I envision a future where there are no big towers, just lots and lots of nodes.
    this is somewhat similar to computer clustering:
    lots of small wireless routers can be more efficient than a handful of towers.

    --
    Use my userscript to add story images to Slashdot. There's no going back.
  57. Re:From dictionary.com ... by N3WBI3 · · Score: 2
    Or like cable/dsl companies complaining about people staling their service??

    This is theft..

    --
  58. Re:How is it different? by GMontag · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Because at the stop light, you don't get to pick which CD they're playing.

    Well, I can certainly make a request.

    When connecting to someone's wireless network, at some point you're going to be making use of their resources (DHCP server, intranet, bandwidth, firewall...whatever).

    A perfect example of an automated request process!

    Now, if you do not wish to honor my requests, for songs OR for bandwidth, then stop granting my requests. Simple as that.

  59. So, how do you guys justify this? by Tom7 · · Score: 2

    First, I doubt they're talking about "warchalking" (really, there needs to be a better name for this); rather, the unauthorized use of someone else's wireless network.

    There seem to be a lot of people here defending this use of someone's wireless network. How are you justifying this? I'll be the first to admit that legality doesn't always coincide with morality, and that words like "thief" and "steal" are used far more often than they should be. For instance, I don't think that copying software or MP3s or even ideas is "stealing" -- because the copying doesn't deprive the original owner of the right to use the software or idea.* In other words, (if you are familiar with "natural law") the resource is abundant, not scarce. However, bandwidth really is scarce!! Many small businesses (the usual kind that have open APs) have a shared T1 or worse, and some pay metered bandwidth. Unless we can determine that they really do have an excess of bandwidth or that they don't mind us using their service, how can we possibly justify this kind of thing?

    Some forms of illegal activity (ie, copying software) can be morally justified with a cogent argument, but we should really be careful not to let that extend to thoughts like, "Anything I like doing is moral in cyberspace."

    * I know this is a pretty glib argument, but that's not really the subject here.

    1. Re:So, how do you guys justify this? by SirSlud · · Score: 2

      > Unless we can determine that they really do have an excess of bandwidth or that they don't mind us using their service, how can we possibly justify this kind of thing?

      Personally, the onus is on the owner of property to spend _some_ effort in protecting it.

      Case in point: If I leave my television on my lawn, unlocked, it'll get stolen. The police won't do a thing about it, because they will contend that I put so little effort into protecting my personal property that it must not have been worth that much to me. They won't consider their own effort worth the cost of protecting my property since I did not do a minimum amount of work to protect it myself.

      As a warchalker, you can't tell for sure if somebody is actually providing a wifi access point au gratis or if some lazy admin at some company forgot to secure the wireless network. Is the network legal or illegal to connect to? Should the onus really be on the part of the connector?

      The owner of the property has a responsibility to use a reasonable amount of effort and care in securing their own property; or else the rest of society spends alot of money and time protecting the property of people who are too lazy or incompetant to do so. Ass we both know, humans dont like freeloaders, so I think in this case, people are right to whine and bitch about the wifi network owners laziness, incompetnance, or lack of education.

      --
      "Old man yells at systemd"
  60. Security tip for wireless administrators... by sterno · · Score: 2

    If you see warchalking, SECURE YOUR NETWORK.

    I mean damn, how much more obvious do network admins need this to be. If you see war chalking symbols at your location you know that other people know you are wide open. So FIX it and stop yammering about theft of service. It's illegal to break into people's houses, but people still put locks on their doors. It's called common sense.

    I mean really, they should be securing their network in the first place. Not doing so is simply irresponsible, and to get pissed off at people roaming onto their network is just passing the buck.

    --
    This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
  61. Lessons I learned in the Army by xidix · · Score: 2, Insightful

    When I was in the Army (specifically, in Basic Training), there were few things that would bring down such harsh retribution from the drills as an unlocked wall locker. A friend of mine once got pt'd to unconsciousness because he had a bad habit of putting the lock on his locker but forgetting to click it shut. He never forgot that lesson, and after that he would often run back to double-check the lock, just to be sure.

    This might sound harse to the uninitiated, but the philosophy was simple: thievery is the fault of the victim. If everyone would secure their belongings properly, there would be no theft (because there would be nothing lying around to steal). While admittedly simplistic (hey, the Army thought it up, how complex could it be?) it is a philosophy not without merit.

    People who install wireless networks should secure them, lest someone come along and take advantage of them. Of course, many will probably need to get pt'd a little before they learn that lesson. But you can't blame the drills for giving "corrective training" to bring your attention to the problem.

  62. Re:How is it different? by xyzzy-ladder · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Thank you for pointing this out. If I request an IP, and they grant the request, haven't I asked for and received permission? So what the hell are they complaining about?

    I'm only being marginally sarcastic.

    --
    There are two types of people; those who divide people into two types of people, and those who don't.
  63. Methinks nokia... by rediguana · · Score: 2

    is rather scared of the spreading of free wireless networks. Long term what could cellular-like mobile VoIP do to Nokia and their clients? I'd have to agree that is in the same class as MSFT complaining about OSS. I think they're scared.

    Rather than incorporating expensive high-margin hardware into a proprietary cellular network - such as Nokia provides, people can develop a wireless IP network instead. In NZ our telecom is working towards only becoming a wholesaler. What if people used their wholesale bandwidth, put up their own wireless drops, and some electronic company develops a VoIP mobile phone. Instant community mobile network. Oppps, no resellers either. Just wholesalers and users. This is definitely not a bad thing ;)

  64. Limp Bizkit by macdaddy357 · · Score: 2

    I did it all for the Nokie. The Nokie, the Nokie, the Nokie. So i'll tell you what to do with that cokie. You can stick it up your..

    --
    How ya like dat?
  65. We need a Better Analogy! by teamhasnoi · · Score: 2
    Would this be like a company having an electrical outlet that is not secured?

    Panhandler breakdancers can come and plug their Panasonic 'Super-Bass' Ghetto Blaster Mark 12 into it, and spin on some cardboard.

    They are stealing electricity; they didn't pay for it, however the company is at fault for not securing the outlet. Much like the reaction you will get from the insurance company if you leave your keys in an unlocked car and it gets stolen.

    The breakdancers are not depriving the company of electricity; the light in the executive washroom does not go out when the Panasonic 'Super-Bass' Ghetto Blaster Mark 12 gets plugged into the street level outlet. If the company notices the breakdancers, they can get a locking plate and put it over the outlet.

    If they do this the breakdancers may still show, but wont be ABLE to steal electrictiy. (Unless they bust off the cover, but then you get into the whole 'hacking' thing which I won't go into here)

    Warchalkers are guilty of nothing but graffiti. What Nokia is trying to do is foist corporate responsibility on citizens!

    Nokia doesn't want to be responsible for thousands of unsecured networks, so rather than help fix the problem, they are passing the buck to legislators who, as always will go after the symptoms. Which means that citizens will become criminals for nothing more than pointing out a problem.

  66. Re:From dictionary.com ... by N3WBI3 · · Score: 2

    Happens all the time (I am refering to tv not broadband) Many houses (such as rental properties) are connected to cable lines from previous people. You can crack open the box on the side of the house, play with the filter elements and allow the cable signal to pass through.

    --
  67. Re:How is it different? by Darth_Burrito · · Score: 2

    The person with the crappy music did not authorize you to listen to it, but the company's wireless access point did authorize you by explicitly granting you access to the network.

  68. wireless networks advertise themselves anyway by klparrot · · Score: 2, Interesting
    But if you left them in your house, and forgot to lock your front door, and someone came in and took them (then left a sign by the road saying "this house is unlocked! help yourself!") then that would be a crime.

    Well obviously the act of entering your house and taking your beer would be a crime. But is it a crime to leave a sign saying "this house is unlocked!" if you don't take anything?

    Nokia has condemned unauthorized access to wireless networks as theft, which slightly makes sense from some point of view (not that I agree with them). But to condemn warchalking as theft too? That's saying that leaving the sign is illegal. IANAL, but I don't think it is.

    It's my opinion that having an unsecured network effectively authorizes outside access. Any computer in range will detect the SSID, which is almost like advertising the network. It's a trivial matter to enable WEP, so these companies have no excuse to complain.

    I know WEP is not perfect, but by enabling WEP, a company has effectively said "this network is private," and in that case, attempting to gain access should be considered stealing. Also, any hacking of the company's local network should be (well it is) illegal. But simply using the AP for internet access? What's the problem? Just be polite and don't download hundreds of megs of warez and moviez, etc.

  69. Oh C'mon Taco by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 2

    You seem to have no problem calling Jonathan Hedley a theif, and what's he's done doesn't even affect you directly.

    <hemos_>Alterslash is illegal. And is violating copyright.
    <CmdrTaco> Oh, this is a real site?
    <CmdrTaco> Thats totally a copyright violation. [....] I wish people wouldn't steal.

    In any case, this is probably just shitty reporting, and what Nokia probably said was that "anyone who sits outside an office and uses a company's wireless network to do their own web surfing is stealing," not "warchalking". Or has the term "warchalking" changed to include those actually surfing as well? Damn Internet, new words get coined one day and their meaning gets perverted the next.

    1. Re:Oh C'mon Taco by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 2

      It might just be a much simpler option to affect his ability to do this, like banning his IP if he has a static one.

      Presumably he's getting them through a proxy or a very dynamic IP, cause he's been around for many months now. Maybe anonymizer?

  70. Re:How is it different? by SlugLord · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If a kid jumps into my swimming pool (which isn't fenced in) and drowns, I am responsible because a swimming pool is an attractive nuisance.
    I don't see any difference between the pool and an insecure wireless LAN, so I'd have to think the WLAN is an attractive nuisance and therefore the responsibility of the owner, not the so-called thief.

  71. What about other "escaping" resources? by batkiwi · · Score: 2

    If I stand outside their window at night reading a book, am I stealing their light?

    1. Re:What about other "escaping" resources? by Junta · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, take that analogy to its conclusion. It only justifies sniffing traffic leaking out. By using that wireless network for internet access (or any use infact) you are throwing stuff into their premises and consuming their bandwidth without permission. It is stealing, plain and simple.

      Just as leaving your door unlocked doesn't make it ok to come in, not protecting the network doesn't mean it's ok to exploit it. Administrators should secure wireless networks with extra care, but it is not the responsibilty of warchalkers to exploit that.

      All that being said, Warchalking is a hell of a lot more innocuous way of finding out that you are wide open than, say, corporate espionage. I came in for an interview at a company that operating in a single suite on the third floor of a building. I noticed a warchalking mark outside the premises and thought 'some company's administrator needs to get it together'. I get the job and find out they have an access point wide open. They had it carefully positioned in the middle of their small suite so they would get best reception. I mentioned what measures I thought should be taken and they said they didn't want to deal with the hastle on employee laptops and that they *knew* the wireless wouldn't extend beyond their walls. Some months later I was able to show them that I could connect from the ground outside the building, and then they let me enable 40-bit WEP. about as secure as a wet tissue, but better than nothing.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  72. Re:Dont lock the door? by arkanes · · Score: 2

    It's actually NOT trespass if your house looks like a commons - say, you designed it to look like a McDonalds, or, more relevently, if it's a coporate office building. The issue here really is whether or not, should you come across an unsecured network that allows you access without authentication, you should consider it to be closed or open by default. Alot of people are going to say that of course you should assume it's private and not go in unless you're invited, and that's legitimate. On the other hand, I don't like this habit we have of declaring things private and protected by fiat (cell phones, cable and satellite tv), and exepting the provider from any responsibility.

  73. Stuff on the Sidewalk by tgibbs · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Generally, if people leave useful stuff out on the sidewalk, the default assumption--barring notification to the contrary--is "free to all."

    I don't see how an unsecured network is any different. It is so easy to add password or other simple security that it is reasonable to presume that anybody offering network access to the neighborhood intends to do so. Of course, simple courtesy demands that one not abuse such a service--by sending out 10,0000 spams, for example.

    On the other hand, it is certainly theft to break into the network, no matter how rudimentary the security.

    1. Re:Stuff on the Sidewalk by Mike+Schiraldi · · Score: 2

      On the other hand, it is certainly theft to break into the network, no matter how rudimentary the security.

      Well, it's not theft, but it's something.

    2. Re:Stuff on the Sidewalk by ProfMoriarty · · Score: 2
      On the other hand, it is certainly theft to break into the network, no matter how rudimentary the security.

      Hmmmm ... wouldn't it be Breaking and Entering?

      Now ... changing that bit would be Destruction of Property ...

      and copying that bit would be Copyright Infringement ... or would it be Intellectual Property Theft?

      --
      Karma? Karma? I don't need no stinkin' karma.
    3. Re:Stuff on the Sidewalk by tgibbs · · Score: 2

      I put it in the category of "theft of services." It is generally accepted that the concept of theft need not entail actual loss by the victim--it is the act of taking/using something, physical or not, that you have no right to without the permission of the person who does have the right to it. For example, it is still car theft if I take your car without permission while you are on vacation, drive it around, and return it, fully gassed, exactly where you left it.

  74. Re:How is it different? by Reziac · · Score: 2

    Well, that brings up a question. Do these wireless networks leak into/interfere with one another??

    As to unauthorized use -- if the network is that insecure in the first place, what is happening to your corporate data??!

    --
    ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  75. If 3G takes off, they'll make more money with it.. by Svartalf · · Score: 2

    WLAN's cheap. 3G's not. The margins are better, etc. with the 3G stuff.

    --
    I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
  76. Fraudulently by nuggz · · Score: 2

    342.1 (1) Every one who, fraudulently and without colour of right

    I would guess that in people talk that would translate to something like.

    fraudulently - acting as another who would have different rights, ie any non-anonymous user.

    without colour of right - without permission?

    I would guess you could argue that.
    1 you are accessing without any misrepresentation, you are not accessing fraudulently.
    2 by virtue of their public broadcast they are giving permission for use

  77. pimping by Scrameustache · · Score: 2

    Is it also Nokia's position that dressing up as a pimp is prostitution, plain and simple?

    Seriously, I wouldn't want some yaya using my company's network without authorisation, so I would think that is they did they were stealing bandwith. But if you leave the door open, its your own fault.

    Hell, warchalking is a nice heads up to the company, it says "people use your network!". They should either block access, or better yet, let 'em do it and place a whole bunch of ads around the chalk marks : )

    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  78. Re:How is it different? by Quixadhal · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Agreed, but with one caveat.

    In a traditional (wired) LAN, if I were to install rj45 jacks in the outside surface of my building, at ground level, and someone walked up with a laptop and plugged in AND my dhcp server happily gave them an address and allowed them to use my resources -- is that really "theft"?

    I would say no. I have (perhaps unwittingly) created a public terminal and allowd people to share my network. Perhaps I didn't *intend* for unauthorized people to use it (maybe I had the idea that a salesman could stop by and download something without having to go up to their office, or some other equally stupid idea), but then again, they didn't *steal* the ip-address, nor did they *force* my router to accept their traffic. I gave it to them without bothering to validate their identity... Stupid me.

    Now, how is wireless access any different? If you are stupid enough to setup a WAP without restricting it by MAC address and/or using encryption, then you essentially have an open rj45 port on your wall. It would be theft if I asked for a dhcp address, you said no, and then I tried to hack my way in anyways.

    As another analogy, if I leave my car open and you get in and drive off, you're stealing because you deprived me of the use of my car. If I leave my car open and you hop in the back seat without my permission, you're guilty of trespass. If, on the other hand, you see a city bus with has no place to pay fares and no indications that you need to do so, how is it stealing if you get on and ride it? It costs the city money to cart your butt around... but if they're too dumb to charge you or keep you off, that's their fault.

    An unprotected WAP is like a big flashing neon VACANCY sign. Please don't try to pass YET MORE STUPID ANAL-RETENTIVE LAWS to make it a punishable-by-finger-removal crime... instead, learn how to secure your network and make your sysadmin do their job!

  79. Re:like spam by Scrameustache · · Score: 2

    Not really, they aren't bothering people and flooding their mailboxes with tons of stuff that they will have go through and filter. They are reducing the amount of available bandwith.

    Its not ok, I guess, but its not as bad as spamming them.

    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  80. Good idea by fobbman · · Score: 2

    Step 1) Raise red flags about WiFi theft.

    Step 2) Come out with a new service that helps secure WiFi.

    Step 3) Make lots and lots of money.

    People will buy your product only when they think that they need it.

  81. Nokia Went On To Say by Cylix · · Score: 2

    Nokia went on to say, they were quite displeased with the warchalkers or "thieves" efforts. Nokia said it would use all of its available resources to fight this growing problem.

    A community reporter asked if Nokia would be educating admins on proper security over wireless networks and how to take steps to defeat possible intrusion.

    A nokia spokesperson said that such efforts were futile and they would need a more proactive reproach to the situation.

    After a long winded discussion on the possible future ramifications, they unveiled their new tool to defeat warchalkers.

    Nokia has specifically trained these chimpanzee's to clean surfaces that have been chalked. The test program initiates in New York and will deploy 100's of monkey's across New York to deal with the existin threats.

    A Nokia spokesman commented, "We trained these monkey's to identify chalk and wipe it from the premise. They have been issued squeegies and a safe chemical substance that will remove the chalk."

    When asked what the monkey's would do for food the spokeman declined to comment. Later, they itterated there existed plenty of dumpsters in New York that would allow for the monkey's to forage.

    After the statement, NY's growing population of homeless vagrants began a protest outside Nokia headquarters. While no representative could be approached for questioning, they were definately angry about their food supply dwindling to those damned dirty apes.

    This was cylix d. kewl for krad news.

    --
    "You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
  82. Re:How is it different? by mccalli · · Score: 2
    Instead you catch it and punt it.

    ...thus physically depriving them of its use. That's the difference there.

    Cheers,
    Ian

  83. I think I speak for all of us when I say by gelfling · · Score: 2

    So What

    How is it Nokia's business what I do? I already buy their firewalls, one would think they would think this is a good thing.

  84. Re:From dictionary.com ... by N3WBI3 · · Score: 2
    No a better analogy would be going into the stadium and sitting in an empty seat (you are using some of the stadium capacity). When you steal cable or network access you are stealing some of their network capacity.

    Justify it to yourself however you want to its still stealing...

    --
  85. Re:Mod parent up, insightful! by Strog · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I can assume the door to your dwelling being open gives me the right to come in and eat stuff out of your fridge?

    Someone please post the parent's address because I'm hungry for some free soda and food.

    Poor security or not, it is still tresspassing. You don't have to have locks on the door for it to be tresspassing. I personally think a person is stupid/irresponsible for not securing their home/network/etc.

    You can leave your car in a bad neighborhood with the keys in it and the windows down. The law will prosecute anyone who steals it if they can find it. Don't be surprised if it is trashed/strippped/etc.

  86. In other news... by 0x0d0a · · Score: 2

    Hershey has decried wrenching caps off fire hydrants as vandalism. Sears has classified unfounded assumptions made by physicists as "dangerous". And MacDonalds is putting up billboards stating that playing overly loud music is "un-American".

  87. So you're saying I can pirate cable and DirecTV... by tlambert · · Score: 2

    "How is [accessing a publically accessible wireless network] different [from listening to the music coming from the car that pulls up next to you at a stop light]?"

    "It's passive".

    So you're saying I can pirate cable and DirecTV, because doing so is *passive*, since the calbes and the signals are already present.

    I guess this means I can run dump packets off a publically accessible wireless network, as long as I don't send any, right?

    Thanks, but I don't quite buy that theory.

    -- Terry

  88. Re:How is it different? by chill · · Score: 2

    Actually, you probably have RJ-11 jacks on the outside of your building. There are test jacks on the phone box that you can use from the outside.

    Yes, it is the responsibility of the company to secure their assets against thieves.

    HOWEVER, if I hop out of my car and leave it running in a public parking lot, NO ONE has the right to hop in and take it for a joy ride. That is a crime, pure and simple and unrelated to the use of gas, wear & tear and whether or not they got it back before I needed it again.

    --
    Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
  89. Re:From dictionary.com ... by jonr · · Score: 2

    You can crack open the box on the side of the house, play with the filter elements and allow the cable signal to pass through.

    But you don't crack anything open when you use wireless network. Better analogy would be if the cable socket would be wide open for the next inhabitant. (Physically and... well what's the word, accessally? :)

  90. Old days coming to the future... by Ektanoor · · Score: 2

    You stop for a second in the middle of the street. Just to take a rest or something else. Suddenly someone pushes you and you see a cop dressed in ol'style pharaon uniform crying to you: "Why the hell you stop by? Trying to warchalking? Keep moving you little bastard. I know you all. Just make the impression you jus'stop to rest and in a second you are stealing some more bandwith of a decent corporate citizen... Behind bars is the place for the scum like you. Go on! Go on! Keep moving!! If I see you again in my sector I'll not be so humble!"

    Well most of us may not remember or note that once upon a time not only in America but also all over the world, cops loved to hunt small gatherings of people and disperse them. In some countries a gathering of more than three people on the street would be considered a demonstration and they could be thrown to jail for that. Probably we still have some countries where such practices still exist... So the humour may not be so unrealistic...

  91. WarChalking is not theft! by Martin+Spamer · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Phone maker Nokia has come down strongly against warchalking. It has condemned as theft the placing of chalk symbols on walls and pavements at places where people can use wireless net access.

    How is WarChalking theft? It is not! This demonisation of WarChalkers in the mass media is akin to the ignorance of the distinction between Hackers and Crackers.

    I am a Computer Professional; I am also a WarChalker. I am not a criminal or thief. I have never stolen bandwidth or illegally accessed a computer.

    The first issue to remember is WiFi is public spectrum it belongs to everybody not to a particular company simply because they've bought an Access Point.

    Secondly most WarChalkers provide internet access via a WarChalked WiFi Access Point out of community spirit or as part of expermental community wireless projects.

    At first it appeared to me that some technically ignorant Nokia marketing droid had simple jumped on the sensationaist anti-WarChalking bandwagon as paraded in the mass-media.

    However as I write this it is becoming increasing obvious to me that this attack is more insipid. Nokia's problem is that cooperative community based Wireless Access Projects run by WarChalkers are competition that will in future destroy their existing business models.

  92. Re:So you're saying I can pirate cable and DirecTV by chill · · Score: 2

    It they're unencrypted, yes. If you have to bypass a security mechanism, like encryption or scrambling then it is illegal.

    I believe that is how the ruling worked.

    So, yes. If those morons don't lock their wireless networks you could probably legally get away with sniffing but not sending.

    --
    Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
  93. Why Nokia cares... by tlambert · · Score: 2

    Like the rest of you, I wondered why Nokia cares.

    Nokia makes 802.11, and other networking equipment; they also make 3G phones, and, finally, they are in bed with Covad: http://www.nokia.com/networks/mw1642/downloads/cov ad.pdf ...

    So why does Nokia care? Nokia cares because they believe that they will sell more equipment if connections can not be shared, than they will if connections are shared.

    -- Terry

  94. What "the ruling"? by tlambert · · Score: 2

    What "the ruling"?

    We are talking about an "advisory" published by Nokia, in which they call people who do war-chalking thieves... not the outcome of a court case.

    -- Terry

  95. Come on now ... by ninewands · · Score: 2

    Theft? I don't THINK so ...

    If access to a network is NOT restricted it should be considered an open invitation to outside users. After all, restricting access by MAC address is NOT rocket science and the tools to do so are included in the box with your shiny new WAP.

    It's the same principle as running a webserver on the 'net. If port 80 is open, it's an open invite for people to connect to port 80. ANY responsible net user knows that it is their OWN responsibility to restrict access to resources they don't want to share with the world.

    Look at it this way ... whose responsibility is it to ensure that their mailserver is not an open relay? Whose responsibility is it to ensure their anonymous ftp server is properly chrooted? It is the responsibility of the system owner, that is who!

    It is not theft to pick up money you find laying in the gutter, therefore, it is not theft to use bandwidth flying through the air. Companies and individuals who don't want to share their resources have all the tools they need to prevent unauthorized access, let them use them.

    Nokia is all wet on this.

  96. Re:And you wonder why they call OSS people theives by Raptor+CK · · Score: 2

    Well, if their network is insecure, they *do* deserve to have bandwidth stolen, and it should show up in their logs and monitoring systems.

    Then the sysadmin should be fired and replaced with someone who has some clue about network security.

    Let's face it. Damned near everyone will accept an offer of something for nothing. If I leave my front door open all the time, people are going to walk in. Some people might even take stuff. If I leave a phone in a publicly accessible place, people will start making calls.

    To hell with legality and morality, people want a free lunch. Just look at Digital Satellite hacks, cable descramblers, game console modchips, phone phreaks... Some of these are ridiculously easy to take advantage of, others aren't. For $30 on top of the cost of a laptop/handheld (and face it, no one who doesn't already have a portable device will give half a damn about wireless networking) I have the ability, though not the right, to walk about my city and access the 'net from any access point in range.

    If you don't want people stealing your bandwidth, then LOCK IT DOWN. If you're running a company and don't want your IT department giving it all away, then hire an admin who understands that. Stores have security guards, residential buildings have doormen, suburban areas have the neighborhood watch, networks have admins. Let them do their job, and the only wireless bandwidth available will be from those who want to share, and have a right to do so. Believe me, in most urban areas, that'll be plenty of bandwidth to go around.

    --
    Raptor
    "Procrastination is great. It gives me a lot more time to do things that I'm never going to do."
  97. Re:Mod parent up, insightful! by Squareball · · Score: 2

    Actually that isn't the same, because you're accessing the net. I think that their net provider has more of a cause to bust you for B&E right?

  98. What about me? by famazza · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Asking a wireless server for access and receive the requested access is against the law.

    Stealing my right to understand how a device works and build my own device (just the way I like: "Do it by yourself") IS NOT against the law.

    Stealing my right to buy a CD (cdda compatible) and play it in the ONLY cdda compatible device I have IS NOT against the law.

    Stealing my right to develop my own software and do with it whatever I want, even give it way for anybody who wants even see its source IS NOT against the law.

    Stealing the right of a country to solve its own problems, and decide it's time to change its president (dictator or not), without the agreement of the proper organization responsible for these cases IS NOT agaisnt the law.

    Accepting money and gifts from big companies to submit new laws following thir interests, instead of the people interests and freedom, IS NOT against the law.

    I hope to still have the right to disagree with things that I think that is REALLY wrong and MUST, or else we will become slaves of laws that were created by our own legal and political representants, representing others interests.

    --

    -=-=-=-=
    I know life isn't fair, but why can't it ever be un-fair in MY favor!?
  99. How are people supposed to know? by The+Good+Reverend · · Score: 2

    If I want to provide access to anyone passing by my home, I should be allowed to. The way I'd do this would be to broadcast my SSID and let anyone in range know that there was a network available. I could advertise in papers, online (newsgroups, local chat spaces, etc), but the best way to let people know would be letting the access point tell them.

    Now, I'm an individual doing this, but there are ISPs, corperations and small businesses who have decided to share their bandwidth. If connecting to their networks is made illegal (that seems to be the way it's going), how will users know which networks are there to be used, and which aren't?

    To me, it seems an open network, broadcasting it's SSID, and having no security isn't just an "open door", it's a "come in, have a drink, put your feet up" sign - I don't want to be breaking the law by connecting to a network that finds me. WEP is simpliest - not super secure, but it tells me, right off, "sorry, you're not welcomed here". I'm not looking to crack or do anything malicious, I'm just looking for a network connection. And since many nice people let me share, how am I supposed to know, when your network comes knocking, that I shouldn't shake hands and have a drink?

  100. Re:sharing by BradleyUffner · · Score: 2

    Ahh, I see, so if I lean my bike against a telephone pole without locking it and someone takes it without my permission there is no theft involved? I don't think so! It may not have been very smart to leave something unprotected, but it is still my property, and it is still theft.

  101. Re:sharing by Ctrl-Z · · Score: 2


    If I leave the door to my house unlocked and unguarded and someone walks in and takes my TV, is that not theft?

    Just because I didn't secure my house doesn't mean that I wouldn't be offended.

    --
    www.timcoleman.com is a total waste of your time. Never go there.
  102. Re:sharing by Ctrl-Z · · Score: 2


    I would ask you to please produce a police officer who would actually say this. Theft is theft, no matter how you look at it.

    --
    www.timcoleman.com is a total waste of your time. Never go there.
  103. Good Analogy by phriedom · · Score: 2

    Finally, a good analogy. There are so many bad ones here at /.

    --
    Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
  104. Re:sharing by Ctrl-Z · · Score: 2


    Remember: the ownice[sic] is on the owner, not the thief.

    But in this case, all of the guilt lies on the thief.

    --
    www.timcoleman.com is a total waste of your time. Never go there.
  105. US Broadcasting/Receiving Laws? by clf8 · · Score: 2, Informative

    I seem to recall hearing somewhere (can anyone help me out?) that in the US there is nothing illegal about receiving signals transmitted. So, technically, it's legal to listen in on analog cell phone conversations, police band, and what not. Were that data encrypted, then it is illegal to break the encryption to read it.

    The UK may be different, but I'm not sure what the illegal part is. Running dhcp to receive an IP address is not hacking. If you then attempted to get into their systems, that would be hacking. So as long as activities were kept to simply using their system as an access point and nothing more, I believe you're within your legal rights (in the US) (for now).

  106. RIAA vs. Chalk Lawsuit by zpengo · · Score: 2

    The RIAA has recently filed a lawsuit against Chalkmakers of America (CA), alleging that the primary purpose of the "chalk" device is to transcribe and distribute lyrics of copyrighted songs.

    --


    Got Rhinos?
  107. Re:And you wonder why they call OSS people theives by N3WBI3 · · Score: 2
    I am not saying that the sysadmin should not be booted out the door for no locking down has LAN/WAN, but that does not mean that taking their bandwidth is OK, its not, its friggen stealing.

    Blaming the company is absolutly pathetic, lame as hell. Its not for you to say 'I can take their bandwidth because its not locked down'. Ill clear something up for you, If you walk by my can and I forget to lock the door I am not saying its OK for you to use! If a guad falls asleep at a store its NOT, say it with me, NOT ok to shoplift, and if the head of my neighbord watch is on vacation please dont start a crime spree.

    --
  108. usage by phriedom · · Score: 2

    "chalking in itself isn't illegal but the usage is."

    Whoah there partner, you're making a bit of a leap there. If one were using the open WAP to break into a company's interior network and/or muck around with their computers, then that would be illegal. However, it is not at all clear that a WAP open to the public, used for internet access is illegal. Many people leave them open on purpose, and secure the intranet from the WAP. It is reasonable to think that many people and companies would not be concerned about the bandwidth used by a passerby on the sidewalk waiting for the bus. "Exploiting and open WAP" sure does sound bad, but it isn't necessarily.

    --
    Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
  109. Re:And you wonder why they call OSS people theives by Raptor+CK · · Score: 2

    At what point did I say that it was OK to steal the bandwidth? At what point did I even deny that it was stealing?

    Bandwidth (on a per company basis) is a finite resource. We both realize that. You're arguing with me on a point that I already agree with!

    The point is that *someone* is going to do it, and it has nothing to do with OSS. Damned near anyone these days can up and buy a card and steal bandwidth. Since it's going to happen, you DO YOUR JOB and stop it.

    I'm not about to shoplift, start crime sprees, etc. But why does it happen? Because of inadequate security.

    I *can* take bandwidth because it's not locked down. I just won't. I could also run about the streets with an assault rifle gunning down anyone who looked at me crosseyed. That doesn't mean I will. You're the one confusing ability with intent.

    As a sysadmin, I fully expect some idiot to try to weasel their way into my networks. When he does, I should hope that I've taken enough precautions to make sure he fails miserably.

    Back to your final response, if a guard falls asleep at a store, someone will try to shoplift. The guard will be fired. Does that get the stolen property back? No. If the head of the neighborhood watch goes on vacation and someone starts a crime spree, someone else will take charge in his absence.

    You can call it theft all you want, but just because you say it's bad doesn't mean people will stop doing it. The proper response is to take the proper precautionary measures. Reliance on some utopian ideals will ultimately get you nowhere.

    And once again, NO, it's NOT ok to steal. But it's still going to happen.

    --
    Raptor
    "Procrastination is great. It gives me a lot more time to do things that I'm never going to do."
  110. Re:And you wonder why they call OSS people theives by N3WBI3 · · Score: 2

    And your arguing me with something I agree with, you should protect your netwrok. My origional post was respoinding to the attitude some people have that its ok to steal if we can. Many of these people are the first to scream if DVD/CD's are made copy protected..

    --
  111. Funny story... by nettdata · · Score: 2

    I have a small development company with a couple of small offices in a relatively empty office building.

    More and more of our developers have been switching(TM) to Mac laptops, and they've been bringing them into the office. (We do 99% of our development at home, doing the "office thing" about once a week).

    Well, I've got a WAP set up in our office, but it's "silent" in that it only responds to devices that it's been configured to accept.

    Needless to say, I came in to a meeting and a couple of guys had new laptops, and they were happily surfing the net, checking their email, etc., wirelessly, which kind of surprised me, because, well, I hadn't set them up yet.

    Turns out that someone in the office building had just bought a new LinkSys WAP and just plugged it in, and the "go-find-me-a-network-connection" feature in OS X had automagically configured the closest available network connection.

    We proceded to pick up the laptops and walk through the hallways until the signal got strongest, knocked on the door, and offered our services in securing their wireless network. :)

    The guy was totally surprised.

    At the end of the day, though, I would NOT consider what we did to be theft, because it lacked the intent, and was a result of the other guys negligence in his configuration of his own tool.

    At some point, people have to take responsibility for their own action. In the same way that "ignorance of the law is no excuse", "ignorance of the technology is no exuse".

    --



    $0.02 (CDN)
  112. Not such a big difference... by tlambert · · Score: 2

    There's not such as big a difference as you imply.

    Several months ago, the cable company signed an agreement with my apartment complex, where they paid the aprtment complex some money in order to get the apartment complex to do two things:

    (1) Install cable outlets in the bedrooms of all apartments.

    (2) Rip down the roof antennas. ...so basically, yes, cable *is* comparable, as the signal passes over a medium that they put into my bedroom, and they've explicitly taken measures to block my access to any signals which don't.

    In any case, my argument was for access to broadcast signals, or signals in wires on your own premises, without an explicit grant of a right-of-way that would preclude you accessing them.

    In case you want to argue cable some more, I'll warn you that I can argue "attractive nuisance" for a live cable outlet in an apartment building, and I can argue the right-of-way exception on the basis of court cases in which TCI Cable and Cox Cable have strung cables over someonees yard to get cable to that someone's house, and had to remove/reroute the cable becuase they failed to use a legal right-of-way.

    -- Terry

  113. A lot of people are throwing around lame analogies by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 2
    ... but none of them are really valid. The fact is that the technospace you're talking about is different enough that simple physical analogies don't apply. The most common use of warchalk-directed access is transient and insufficient enough that most theft analogies don't apply (Yes, it's theft for me to pick a penny up off your sidewalk. Would society work if we tried to prosecute and prevent each instance of this?). The lack of security is so blatent that most lock/unlock analogies for physical space don't apply (Does having unsecured access for long enough establish an electronic easement?).

    In short, the only thing that all of this analogy blather does is muddy the waters when what is needed is a debate on what is the proper morality of access to a new object of this type. What are the societal costs of prosecuting versus non-prosecution? Is there a responsibility for society to protect stupid admins who won't protect their own systems? And so on. But stupid analogies of locks and houses won't get you there...

    --
    That is all.
  114. WAP makers sell a fundamentally unsafe product. by Pont · · Score: 2

    As others have pointed out, WAPs default configuration leaves them literally broadcasting the message "Here I am! Come get your internet access here." The laptop asks, "can I use your net connection?" and the WAP says, "Absolutely! Here's a key! Have a nice day!".

    Using these advertised services is in no way stealing.

    The ONLY reason there is any moral dilema is because we, as geeks, know that the WAP user may not have actually intended to have their WAP open to the public.

    WAP makers are selling a fundamentally unsafe product. They do it because it's the status quo. It's the status quo because it will cut into their profit margins if they have to handle support calls explaining to customers how to use their shiny new WAP. Right now, you buy a WAP, connect the wires, and you're good to go. Forcing the users to choose a security mechanism or explicitly make the connection public would generate more support calls and cut into margins. All the other WAP makers do it, so why should Linksys/DLink/BrandX be the first to annoy customers?

    There are two ways this can go down. Either the WAP makers can get together and simultaneously agree to ship secure by default (and raise prices or lose profit to compensate), or there will be a class action lawsuit that will force them to do it anyways.

  115. Re:And you wonder why they call OSS people theives by Raptor+CK · · Score: 2

    Ah, the old DVD/CD issue.

    Well, they shouldn't be copy protected, but that's just because I supposedly have the right to make backups, and use the data as I see fit for personal use.

    If they could somehow make it that I could make 15 billion copies of a song/movie that I've already paid for, but ensure that I'm the only one who can use those copies, I'd be perfectly happy.

    Anyway, no, it's not ok, as we both agree. And yes, resources of any type should be secured from improper use. However, I'll still stand in the anti-copy protection side, since everything that I see in place these days seems to limit fair use.

    --
    Raptor
    "Procrastination is great. It gives me a lot more time to do things that I'm never going to do."
  116. Re:And you wonder why they call OSS people theives by N3WBI3 · · Score: 2

    Yes you/I can say that because we think stealing is wrong, the people here saying its ok to steal have imho no right to complain about any security measures people take for their IP..

    --
  117. More analogies by Fjord · · Score: 2

    If I point my web browser at a web site and it returns a page with no authorization request, have I illegally accessed that site? If send subsequent requests to the site and it sends back more documents, am I illegally using their bandwidth?

    If I ftp to a site, and without seeing a message from the site other than "connected" use "ftp/my@email.adr" to log on, have I illegally accessed the site? If I cd around and pull/push a few files, have I illegally used their bandwidth?

    If I scan for a WAP, and I get connected, have I illegally accessed the WAP? If I then request the WAP to pass on my packets and relay my packets back to me, have I illegally used their bandwidth?

    --
    -no broken link
  118. fix 802.11b, stop whining by g4dget · · Score: 2
    I'm surprised they didn't call it "piracy" or "terrorism". Those are so much more dramatic sounding, and so much more popular with people who like to taint behavior that's legal or cover up their own technical ineptness.

    In this case, if the wireless standards had incorporated decent security, warchalking wouldn't exist. 802.11b, and the various products based on it, are the most incompetently designed products from a security point of view: lousy user interface (you have to type lots of weird numbers into dialog boxes before your system becomes secure), and even if you go through that, it still isn't secure.

    Nokia: fix your systems, don't blame others.

  119. Not theft - access is freely provided. by Aigantighe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No. It is not theft.

    The warchalkers are not taking anything. Rather, they are requesting a service, and it is being granted to them incorrectly. The decision to allow access to the network is made by an entity within that company. Normally, that entity's supervisor would be responsible for correcting it. In this case, the network admin.

    Imagine a waiter at a restaurant who gives extra food (or service) to those who ask. Management may not approve of this practice, but it is in no way the responsibility of the customer to not ask.

    Asking for a service is not a crime. Using a service provided illegitimately is not theft, unless an attempt has been made to mislead the provider. In this case, this has not happened.

  120. If it's not protected by Cyclone66 · · Score: 2

    then it's not theft.
    If you have to bypass security checks then it is theft.

  121. hmm? by Trepidity · · Score: 2

    And here I thought Nokia was based in Finland, rumored to be part of Europe...

  122. Sue Microsoft by drinkypoo · · Score: 2
    Microsoft makes an operating system which will attempt to renew its DHCP lease when it gets linkstate back. Therefore someone driving down the street while using GPS logging software and having an 802.11 card in their laptop may be transformed into an unwitting criminal as they detect open 802.11 networks!

    Holy shit, that's a good idea. Thank heaven for NT5.x.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  123. Re: No no no! by morzel · · Score: 2
    Given today's security climate, that must mean... erasing the chalk?

    No, that would be banning chalk from the stores using the DMCA; after which the geek community can set its hopes on Bruce Perens to chalk HP HQ.
    Go Bruce! ;-)

    --
    Okay... I'll do the stupid things first, then you shy people follow.
    [Zappa]
  124. Kinds of wireless networks by ces · · Score: 2


    There are many different attitudes a network admin can have towards 3rd party access via their WAP:

    1) Actively supports public use of their WLAN, probably put the warchalking marks around the AP. SSID is set to blank or otherwise indicate public access.

    2) Doesn't intend to offer public access but doesn't care when they find out it is happening. Usually these are home users or some small businesses.

    3) Doesn't intend to offer public access, has no real clue about how far their signal leaks or how easy it is to find a WAP left on default settings. When given clue, either begins to secure network or whines the g'ment needs to do something about these "evil hackers". Most open APs are in this category.

    4) Doesn't intend to offer public access, takes steps to secure network. Can either be totally private or a pay network like the one at Starbucks.

    --
    Happy Fun Ball is for external use only.
  125. Reception by fm6 · · Score: 2
    There's been some discussion in the U.S. about whether analog phone calls are "private" in a legal sense. Prosecuters have argued that they can use evidence they've gathered by listening in, while defense attorneys have argued that there's an "expectation of privacy", which means that the Fourth Amendment applies. There was a minor political scandal a few years back when an off-air recording of a conference call was published. Don't know if anybody was ever prosecuted for that -- but private wiretaps, even when they are conspicuously illegal, often go unpunnished.

    But it's all kind of beside the point. You can argue all kinds of analogies and parallels. Public information is free to those who find it; an unsecured access point is like an open door; putting data on an unsecured network is like having a conversation in public; etc., etc. The bottom line is that the U.S. courts have never been tolerant of unauthorized access to systems and their data, no matter how careless the owners of that data have been.

  126. Technical technicals by fm6 · · Score: 2

    Legally and morally, facilitating a crime is a crime itself. Sometimes it's a lesser crime, but not always, and it's never a much lesser crime.