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More Switching Stories
serendigital writes "Unix guru Simon Cozens wrote about his "conversion" story in the UK Unix User Group Newsletter. He touts: OroborosX and XDarwin. This gives you a rootless X server and Aqua-like window manager. He also seems to like the libraries: the NeXT approach of separating libraries off into their own subdirectories and separating out library versions makes for a much tidier filesystem arrangement than simply bundling everything in /usr/lib. One of the more controversial "differences" in OSX." And on the other side of the switch, there's Wil Wheaton does Mandrake.
Mandrake has been very good to me. I have helped many people i know move from windows to linux and Mandrake is about twice as easy as anything else i have found. With the latest version 9.0 its even better and i would advise checking it out. As much as people like to flame Mandrake for not being a "hardcore" distro i say i dont care. It is distro's like Mandrake that bring in new people and it was what i used to switch over.
unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
Most users don't care whether you're running FreeBSD or Linux underneath. What they see is the shell and the GUI.
And, incidentally, no, I don't find it a problem having only one mouse button.
;)
:)
Well, now we know he's been paid off.
Seriously, the more I hear about OSX, the more interested I get in trying it out. Who knows - my next PC might be a Mac
Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.
You don't have permission to access to this document on this server.
Apache Server at wilwheaton.net
Wrong button Ensign Crusher! :)
"They do not preach that their god will rouse them, a little before the Nuts work loose." Kipling, 'The Sons of Martha'
Apple will almost certainly never port to generic x86. Ignoring every other argument about whether or not it would be profitable for them to do so, Apple still needs Microsoft Office, and I promise you that the second that Mac OS X runs on generic x86 boxes is the second that Office development stops and the Mac's life support lines get pulled. (Don't get me wrong; the Mac's user base has been revitalized and the software lineup is infinitely better than four years ago when Office 98 was the rage, but if you think that the Mac would run without Office v.X in the business world, you've got another thing coming. As long as the Mac continues to have this dependancy, I will consider it on life support systems that are run by Microsoft.)
Meanwhile, if the idea of a very OS X-like environment on your box is highly appealing, stick your coding where you mouth is and go help the GNUstep project. They are improving every day, and ever little contribution that brings them more in line with OS X will help tremendously. Recently, two projects --LinuxStep and Simply GNUstep--were even spawned to create GNUstep-centric Linux distros. I am very hopeful that these will mature into a fully open-source desktop OS that is just as easy as OS X from a user standpoint and also returns the Mac's kickass development system to the Linux world. Go check them out, give them a hand if you can. And don't say, "It's not nearly complete enough"; it's a circular argument. The only solution to that is to go help.
One thing that's saved me a lot of headaches is having 2 boxes. Most people like windoze games anyway, so it works out nice to share your dsl/cable connection between a Linux variant and a MS gaming box.
It's pretty invaluable to have a backup system so you can goto google and find out why something crashed in Linux, or vice-a-versa.
Most broadband modems have routers installed nowadays, then just buy a cheap hub from Linksys to share the connection(or buy a Linksys router). Also it's very handy to buy one of those computer I/O switch thingies...it allows you to use one keyboard to control both computers(while sharing the monitor)...all I do it ctl-alt-shift 1, or 2 to switch back and forth between computers.
Anyway Wil's article mentioned the danger inherant in crashing your only connection to the web while experimenting(where to go for help when you can't surf?)...and he also mentioned the drawback of not being able to play windows games in Linux...if you can afford a second box, this solves both problems very nicely.
The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky
Stuff like this makes me wonder what some of the names of 24th century operating systems.
Microsoft apparently gets more powerful over the years, and decides to name it and all the companies it acquires "The Federation." Galaxy Class Starships run Windows 2.35k Service Pack 4.
(FYI: Klingons run Linux 3.5.7 kernel. Not much work has been done on it since the 22nd century, where the kernel dev team finally went bonkers and decided to started growing ridges on their heads. The penguin has been replaced by a Targ, and every year there is a festival which commemorates the burning of plush penguins).
This is the true reason Wesley left. He got tired of all the Computer Lockouts and Copyright protection. So he travels back in time to try and push Mandrake, changing the course of history into something that looks more like Firefly.
Oh God, all this acid is making my head hurt. I'll stop now.
/^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
When hell freezes over and microsoft goes out of business. There's a lot of reasons to stick with their own hardware system, Microsoft dominence being the biggest, but also because of Offix for mac.
If you really want OS X, stop wasting your money dropping new upgrades into your PC, and save some money to buy a new iMac. If after you have given the mac a reasonable effort (that is, not giving up the first time it doesn't behave like your windows box) and you still really don't like it, you can sell it again or return it and more likely than not get 90-100% of your investment back.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
Stop spreading FUD already :)
Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you already run the X server under OS X? I could swear you can Unless of course I'm misinterpreting what you said.As for the mouse, as has been said over and over and over and over, PLUG THE DAMN 12 BUTTON MOUSE INTO THE MAC
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
Apple's hardware is expensive.
;) While it is true that I could run Linux on my shiny new powerbook, I can also continue to do so on my shiny Thinkpad, which is just as solidly built.
It is understandable that they have to be a bit higher priced to support development costs, as their market is smaller, however the fact that I can buy a very capable product, often for half the cost of its mac counterpart is always the first problem I run across when considering the switch.
OSX is not free.
As much as Apple likes to tout their new position as open source loving folk, the fact remains that they will be charging for this OS. While I do not disagree with this business model, it feels as though Apple has taken a lot more than they have given back.
OSX is amusing.
Unfortunately, I think that after a few months with it I would long for a nice X server with WindowMaker. (more NeXT than OSX anyway
Steve Jobs scares me.
He does.
of a Sparc
Cake or Death? Cake Please!
Wrong, on Darwin, NeXT STeP, OpenStep and Mac OS X, the /usr/lib/dyld (which is like /lib/ld.so) can find the libraries if there are in /System/Library/Frameworks/XXX.framework/XXX, /Library/Frameworks/XXX.framework/XXX, ~/Library/Frameworks/XXX.framework/XXX, and /Network/Library/Frameworks/XXX.framework/XXX (not in that order though), so the LD_LIBRARY_PATH (actually DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH on Darwin/Mac OSX) does not need to be touched at all.
read dyld(1) and ld(1) for more information on how this is done.
I use click and hold. I rarely need to access a contextual menue. Since I always have one hand on the key board, the keyboard shortcuts work better.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
A horrid thing of a mouse with one button.
I'm on a mac, and I have a 3 button scroll mouse.
I don't mind the 1 button mouse, but that wheel thingy is just so damn cool, I had to go out and buy one.
Can't see why you couldn't do the same with your insane 12 button uber mouse.
You can't take the sky from me...
Since Apple's "Switch" campaign has been underway, there have been three different market analyses to claim that Apple's market share is even lower than it had been before. Giga Information Group says that Apple sunk to a new low of a mere 2.6 percent market share, while RedSheriff and OneState.com put it even lower, at 2.2 and 1.43 percent, respectively.
Apple, those Switch commercials are quaint, especially with the quirky music and all, but it's your own users that you're portraying as idiots. Your rejection by the marketplace reflects this. Better come up with a new ad campaign before those numbers drop to zero...
Any modern usb mouse/keyboard can work with a mac. Just plug it in. Scroll mouse and everything. I agree on mice. I go crazy if I use a computer without a scroll mouse. Just like a pc, if you do not like the default os then you can use linux. In the future when everything but drm-windows is outlawed, the mac might be your only hope for freedem. Linux will always be there. Instead of paying a ms tax, you just pay an apple tax. However with Darwin you can take off aqua and run a real unix if you like.
http://saveie6.com/
Wil linked this screenshot of GNOME, as an example of what the desktop in Mandrake looks like.
;-)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can see Alan Cox's fuzzy head over on the 'Projects' icon.. and prolific Linux hero or not, I can't see Mandrake coming with an Alan Cox icon.
mogorific carpentry experiments
open -a "Microsoft Word"
'nuff said.open -a "Adobe Photoshop 7.0"
Not that I don't support the development of open, Free alternatives, but when you want to use two of the most common and powerful commercial programs out there, tapping those commands into the Terminal does come in handy..
four nine eighteen twenty-7 thirty-nine forty-7 fiftyeight sixty-nine seventy-9 eighty-8 one-hundred-and-nine one-twenty
Everyone who isn't a trained actor looks like an idiot when a camera is trained on them. That's the point. Real, goofy, quirky, neurotic, normal people, not paid actors.
With two processors and an OS that natively supports multiple processors? Some how I doubt it.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
WTF? Are you stupid or something? Fastest G4 speed is currently dual 1.25 Ghz. OS X is UNIX my friend, take a quick run down to Apple's web site and actualy do some research before you spout bull shit.
ANd why is it that so many "geeks" thing the "hard to use" == better?
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
Two reasons for the mouse:
1) Newbies. Ever try to ddo tech support for s new computer user? Two buttons confuse them. One button makes things very easy. Click, double click.
2) The system was designed arround one button. You don't need two buttons to access the functionality of the mac OS. Therefore, it doesn't make sence to include two button mice. Those who are used to them and want them, should already have them, therefore they don't need another.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
It's up to 3 downloadable iso's now.
Wil. Not because he switched to linux, but because his story included a pointer to pr0n. Get your head in the game, Apple, you're losing serious points here!
--Jim
Also it's very handy to buy one of those computer I/O switch thingies...it allows you to use one keyboard to control both computers(while sharing the monitor)...
Your thinking of a "KVM" switch. The name stand for "Keyboard Video Mouse" and they do exactly that. Swtich your keyboard/video(moniter)/mouse. You can find generic ones for cheaper but its best to stick with a name brand such as Belkin or D-Link. Belkin switches will degrade the signanl less and are wortht he extra $10. You can find a 2 computer KVM switch for around $50 with cables or a 4 port from $75-100. They are mostly used in server environments where you have racks of computers but are being used mroe and mroe by home users such as you and me for simple multiple workstation environments. Remeber not to go cheap ont he box and cbaels though ebcause its still less tha the cost of a new keyboard/moniter/mouse and maybe a new desk/bigger room the list goes on.
unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
Yet works flawlessly with my two button optical scroll logitech. Imagine that!
If you are so hard set in your ways that something simple like a mouse will turn you away form a company forever, I doubt Apple wants you as a customer anyways.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
>Wrong, on Darwin, NeXT STeP, OpenStep and Mac OS /usr/lib/dyld (which is like /lib/ld.so)
>X, the
>can find the libraries if there are in
>/System/Library/Frameworks/XXX.framework/XXX,
>/Library/Frameworks/XXX.framework/XXX,
>~/Library/Frameworks/XXX.framework/XXX, and
>/Network/Library/Frameworks/XXX.framework/XXX (not
>in that order though), so the LD_LIBRARY_PATH
>(actually DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH on Darwin/Mac OSX)
>does not need to be touched at all.
Looking at the link you gave, it appears that it touches DYLD_FRAMEWORK_PATH instead. Same shit, different variable. And actually, if it doesn't find it in DYLD_FRAMEWORK_PATH, it *does* touch DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH, then DYLD_FALLBACK_FRAMEWORK_PATH, and finally DYLD_FALLBACK_LIBRARY_PATH.
You've convinced me, that sounds REALLY neat compared to just looking in LD_LIBRARY_PATH.
Matt
Meanwhile, if the idea of a very OS X-like environment on your box is highly appealing, stick your coding where you mouth is and go help the GNUstep project.
Why? I want a Mac for the fact that it's a mac: A unix like system that lets me get my work done yet still has enough of a market share to coexist in the company groupware system and even the occasional game (if frequently delayed) and no Microsoft Tax.
I don't see how Yet Another Freaking Window Manager for Linux is going to give the benefits the Mac does. Other things will, but it will require increased market share and a large userbase defacto standardization on a single desktop and window manager (Which can only start with a distribution like RedHat doing what it has done with Gnome/KDE).
Pricewise, Mac desktops are not all that bad (Dual 867 for $1600) but could still do with some price cutting. However, the real value is in the laptops, and they are -across-the-board- at least $1k too expensive. A 800mhz powerpc laptop with a 40 gig drive a 512 meg memory is $3200. A comparable IBM Thinkpad (1.2 gig, 512meg, 40gig) will be about $1400, and the 1.8 gigs only $400 more.
That $1800 difference sure makes the Microsoft Tax less odious.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo.
There's a version of Win NT that runs on PPC. and it failed miserably because no one who owns a mac would want windows.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
Weird microkernel? Mach? It's older than NT.
NeXT stuff under the hood? You mean the assorted UNIX libraries that provide the GUI and such? How's that different from KDE or CDE?
DPS hasn't been used since 1999 or so. The only thing that makes it UNIX is that it runs some UNIX commands? How is anything else more UNIX? Linux is less UNIX than Mac OS X if you want to be a pedantic jerk, really.
Hate computers? I love computers. Switch from Linux? I did. I want to have apps. I want to have a UI that doesn't make me depressed just thinking about it. I don't want to have to deal with the PC hardware every day. I switched and I couldn't be happier.
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
So it looks like a big mess, here it is:
:). If your a normal user and want to use it as a desktop os, then it's pretty decent. I use Windows, Linux, and OS X server (client also but rarely)... all for different tasks.
:). I'd replace Linux with windows already if it were not for the better interface + number of desktop apps of windows that i already use.
I've extensively used OS X 10.0, 10.1, and 10.2, servers and clients. If your truly serious about business you'll realize that optimizing and customising these systems are a big pain. With non standard everything... Also it's not actually BSD, but based on it somewhat.
If your gonna use a mac YDL is better imo
Windows: I've used it for a long time and it happens to be a excellent desktop O/S. It on ibm's Open PC Architecture (and has been since the 80s) so there's a lot of cheap and powerful hardware. Downside is that it is harder to use because of the shear amount of stuff for it.
Linux (RH 7.1 with a lot of RPM upgrades): I use this as a hobby/side business for a server of mine. Runs very well, Duron 1 ghz, 1 gig of ram. Hardware/software cost is a real issue here and nothing can compare. My hobby includes a site that get's over 600,000 pageviews daily
OS X Server: I run several of these for and educational institution (happens to be a rich school district). They've always been using macs and there was no way around it. I mainly run two webservers an apache (with PHP, MySQL) and a webstar (with Lasso, Filemaker). When configuring apache and bind, I had to use the terminal for everthing as Apples interface didn't include much to control apache and nothing for bind.
Hmmm... Pie...
Back in 1997 Microsoft invested $150 million in non-voting shares. Those shares were already sold at a tidy profit by MS.
> The idea that one button is "easier" is stupid.
Never worked support, have we?
Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems."
That said, if the Mac is right for you, then buy a Mac. I strongly feel that the wonderful hardware/software integration is a key selling point. However, since some people say that they cannot afford a Mac or do not like the proprietary aspects of Mac OS X and would like an open-source or free solution instead, I still think that GNUstep has tremendous promise if only it could acquire more developer resources.
Ok... normally I use SuSE Linux with Gnome for everything. But we do schools and schools do MACs so here I am with OS-X on my (messy) desk. Right next to me is my LCD monitor which can show me my Linux GUI or my Windows GUI. I can compare all of them with little effort.
What do I like about OS-X?
1. I like the size and convenience of the iBook. It has Unix on it and that makes it useful for me to carry to clients' sites and check out their network. Normally I carry a Linux laptop for this but the P-120 laptop (my wife's old machine) is too slow for a useful GUI.
2. I like the GUI. Heck, I was laying in bed the other night playing games on this thing and it was damn fun. (Well, fun for me, my wife was annoyed at the bleeps and whistles... sheesh.)
3, I like that it's Unix... BSD rocks (although I generally prefer Linux).
What do I not like???
1. Yeah, the mouse. One button. I like to surf using new windows for links and then close 'em down to go back for more links. A single-button mouse doesn't do this and it's a pain in the butt to carry a mouse with me.
2. One desktop. Damn! How can I work with only one desktop? On my Linux box I have 4 desktops; one for email/calendar (Ximian Evolution), one for web browsers, and two for misc apps I pull up (Open Office, GAIM, etc.). How anyone can do useful work without having multiple desktops (accessible with alt-F keys) is beyond me. Is there a way to do this on the MAC. I dunno yet.
3. The keyboard on this iBook bounces... some letters in words appear twice in a row. This annoys me. Although, to be frank, it might be just my untrained fingers on a new keyboard.
Generally, however, I like the iBook and I like OS-X. I would recommend this product to any client as long as the apps they need are available. But I'm not switching yet.
No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
Who in their right mind would buy it ? If Apple levels the field they CAN ONLY GAIN. I figure you guys are right though corporate politics being what they are...
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Only the first one is required. Cd's 2&3 have extras such as open office.
unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
You're arguably right about the Powerbooks (which are rumored to be updated soon), but the iBooks which start at $1200 are a much better value in most cases.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
Two points.
When it all comes down to it, you get what you pay for -- and it doesn't matter much if you buy from a high-end PC manufacturer or from Apple. So pick what suits you best!
And why wait for it to take off? My latest Mac OS X app Gridlock was an easy port to GNUstep. The non-UI code worked perfectly with zero changes; there were a few UI issues but they were simple to work around.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
I had Suse and Mandrake and Redhat all installed on the same machine at various times. Suse was, by far, the slowest/worst of them all. So, I guess everyone should listen to me now instead because I've just given unrefutable evidence, just like the poster, I'm replying to, right? :)
Seriously, Suse used to really suck bad on the hardware here - yeah, maybe it was bad hardware, but Mandrake/Redhat (hell even Caldera) all worked better than the Suse we had. Perhaps newer ones are better, but I couldn't even get Suse fans to admit (when they saw it) that it was bad, even though it was demonstrably bad.
creation science book
Since it sounds like Wesley Crusher, I mean Wil Wheaton, likes Mandrake, how about some Wesley Crusher, I mean Wil Wheaton games and utilities for Mandrake? He could provide his voice to whoever decided to code the stuff.
Here are some fictional examples I'd like to see:
1. Star Trek Dodgeball
2. TURN YOUR TEARS INTO BEERS : How to shed crocodile tears over plastic toys bearing your likeness, and tell stories about your used goods for extra cash on eBay.
3. MILK THE FORMER FAME : How to make an effective whine blog : the fans will buy into your propoganda based upon your former celebrity status.
4. King Wesley Desktop : Others may mock the next generation character, but with the KWD (King Wesley Desktop), every time you use your system you will be greeted with Wesley Crusher dressed in robes and crowned, holding a autographed Next Generation lunchbox. Wait, there's more! 15% of every purchase goes towards the: Why Is Spot Under The Bed? foundation. Help truly discover the reason Data and Geordie were peeking at each other underneath a bed all alone. The cat was surely a hologram, but sssssh! Results will be kept private.
5. The Next Generation Interactive! Reality Show. Watch as Wesley Crusher gets tossed out from his companions' group like Brainy from the Smurfs. Just like in the smurfs, it happens every episode!
That's a rather funny statement. In my experience, tech support tends to be almost as dumb as users. Its incredible how, the second you get away from the script or whatever it is that they use, they actively hinder your progress in solving the problem.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
We are the latest division of Apple's marketing department.
If voting were effective, it would be illegal by now.
Too small. Most ibooks are 12", and even the 14" is too small. I've got a 15" laptop, my next one will be 17".
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo.
If you compare a T-series Thinkpad (a far better comparison), the margin narrows.
Not if you want a fair comparison between computers of relative equal power. 800mhz PowerPC is about 1.2gig Intel. The 1.8gig thinkpad that you quote is not only significantly faster than the fastest Powerbook it's a not even a fair comparison to the 667mhz that you quote. Even so, it's still a full grand cheaper, and for no benefit other than the OS.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo.
Like many of the die hards in my office, I thought OS X was an improvment over Mac OS, but I stuck by my linux installation as my primary work station for quite some time. A couple of weeks ago- with the release of 10.2, I decided I would switch over on an experimental basis. With OroborOSX and XDarwin, as well as the Mac OS X developer tools, I'm pretty much sold at this point.
I now have a workstation that runs most (if not all) of the Unix ish apps I need to do my work, as well as the propritary applications I used to have to switch to windows for.
Sure, I still have three boxes on my desk (Linux WS, Mac g4 desktop, and cheesy little windows laptop) but I'm increasing using ONLY the OS X system. I'm pretty much sold - as are most of the other's on the engineering/it team I work with.
'course at home - I still run linux - but I don't need MS Office as much there. I'm still sold on Linux as a platform, all but a very few server installations I'm working with at this point are linux, and I'm not about to get rid of it all together - but the next machine I'll buy will be a tiBook (though if you're listening apple, we need a damed two button mouse)
\Drew National Data Director, John Edwards for President
>Jack Campbell spent about 30 hours and about a
>week's worth of research to gather his numbers.
He doesn't detail how he arrived at his numbers, which to me ruins any credibility in them.
>Even includes Linux, AS400, and mainframe OS and
>application numbers.
And ignores Netware, OpenVMS, MPE/IX, OS/2, DOS, System/36, and numerous others.
It would be easy to say these are all legacy platforms, but it doesn't change the fact that there is a signifigant installed base of each. The last numbers published by IDC (in 1998) reported an installed base of 10 *million*. Even System/36 still has a signifigant userbase, despite being superceded by OS/400 in the early 1990's.
>At the end of the article he also includes the
>hardware numbers per manufacturer over the last
>20 years for those people wanting to know those
>numbers. I will not tell you the results, you
>should read the article for yourself.
How about some more hardware numbers... The total number of Macintoshes ever produced is 54 million, of which only 17 million are capable of running MacOS X.
On the other hand, the PC industry is pumping out somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 million units A QUARTER. That's 120 million units a year. And that is only the Intel compatible machines.
Somehow the figure of 275 million installed machines is starting to sound a little low, isn't it?
And, to put that into further perspective, Apple is selling about 800k units per quarter. Respectable? Yes. Enough to put them in the top five manufacturers? Yes. But it is still only 3% of the total market.
Please note that I am not expressing an opinion about the value of the Macintosh platform, nor its long term viability. I just dislike people who present unsubstantiated statistics as facts, and that's what Mr. Campbell apears to be.
Matt
On a TiBook myself, and I mostly agree with you. This thing is nice, but far from perfect. Roughly following your points, first those you list as positive:
Now the ones you listed as bad:
One more thing you didn't mention but needs to be said... Free Software! Yes, the OS isn't Free, which is sad, but it's quite a bit closer than the Windows box I still had to keep on before, and it's a hell of a lot easier to port *nix applications to. Which is good for the user, and good for Free Software too, more ports and more eyeballs.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
Apple is (currently) ignoring Unix users! This is not merely speculation on my part.
No, it is either clearly false (see below) or non-falsifiable blather. Apple has engaged in substantial marketing specifically directed toward the Unix Market, for example by running Apple print ads directed to the Unix Market, complete with "/dev/null" unix jargon.
Reasonable people may differ with our anonymous coward about whether discounting his 1990 suggestion constitutes ignoring the entire Unix market, or whether he simply has an overblown view of the representattive constituency of his own design choices as compared to those of others.
I have worked Unix, Mac, Windows and other OS and development environments for decades, and don't find myself using the control key all that much more in any one as opposed to another, so I don't see this as a peculiarly Unix-centric issue. Even so, despite doing a massive amount of Unix and terminal work day by day on my prime ax, an Apple Powerbook, and having a zillion desktop and other machines around from which to pick, I just don't experience his pains. (I suppose I find the virtue of my wireless flexibility to walk around my world more significant to me than the slight trick of learning my fingers around a keyboard.)
Since when is a Gui "entertaining"? I mean, I realize that little animations and stuff for scrolling around on the dock (or whatever) might be fun for the first five minutes, I would certainly hope that apple users are brainwashed enough to pay $130 for that...
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
There are several versions of the Apple Unix-centric print ads available on-line.
One good reason would be because with the new Macs you can do all of that, with the possible exception of games depending on which ones you play, on one machine, without rebooting. Which is nice, particularly if that one machine is a TiBook you can take with you wherever you go.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
But under the surface, OS X also has some pretty big issues. It is quite schizophrenic about APIs: the BSD, Carbon, and Cocoa APIs really aren't all that well integrated. There are half a dozen different kinds of executables, with entirely different behaviors. Many applications see a Mac file system, others see a UNIX file system. OSA scripting doesn't work for the majority of applications. And Carbon applications ignore Cocoa preferences. Some devices are accessible through BSD-like APIs, others are only available through Carbon, some have Cocoa wrappers.
And the crown jewel of OS X, the GUI, is also a bit iffy under the covers. Quartz is an enormous resource hog and rather sluggish. The Cocoa API requires lots of manual storage management and manual layout management. Objective-C is getting rather long in the tooth and will not take the world by storm anymore (it was a nice idea in 1985, now we have better systems). In terms of usability, OS X is better than Windows, but it is still far from "intuitive" (all current GUIs, including Apple's, commit some grave sins), as you will quickly find out if you try to explain how to use it over the phone to non-computer users.
I like my Macs (and am typing from a Mac right now). But they are not replacements for UNIX workstations or Linux machines--they are replacements for Windows desktop machines. And Apple has their work cut out for them. Let's hope they'll clean up some of the mess under the covers. I think the more open source software they can use, the better for them. In the medium term, they might even be well advised to drop Quartz and Objective-C and adopt technologies more widely used in the open source world--I think Apple won't be able to keep up with Gnome, KDE, Ximian, and other efforts like that.
The biggest advantage of Mac OS X are probably still the hardware/software integration, brand, distribution channels, and surrounding infrastructure. Those, rather than amazing technical differences, are what make the Mac a good choice for many non-technical users.
But you're not? Let me see if I can pull some samples out of your post (and just this post never mind your rant)
and all of that just from a short post. So now tell me who's a fucking elitist bastard? People might actualy listen to you if you came accross as an intelligent, reasonable and thoughtful individual instead of a Bill Gates loving 13 year old with nothing better to do than look at porn all day.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
Why not just use a two button mouse. Obviously, people don't have problems with it. Obvioulsly hitting 'control-click' or 'click+hold+for+one+second' is more difficult/annoying then just using another finger. It's like they're trying to prove a point.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Wether or not they are 'supposed' to look like idiots dosn't change the fact that they do, and that people don't want to be 'like' an idiot wether they are or not.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
At 17 inches, that's no longer a laptop. Sorry, the whole idea of a laptop is portability. How the hell you you plan to fit a 17 inch laptop into a back pack?
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
I am on a tiBook (800)...
Things I like:
1. Unix unix unix. I am a programmer/admin for a bunch of unix boxes and 99% of my web applications etc. I am able to develop w/out any problems right on my laptop.
2. Good Java support. Finally.
3. Fast. I have heard complaints from other people, but my tiBook seems to run fine. It feels like it runs 2x faster than my G4 tower (466) and doesn't feel like a workstation when it's doc'd to my monitor and usb keyboard/mouse.
4. Da chit just works. I honestly don't have to monkey around with anything. I don't install hacks and wacks to make my windows different shapped or themed. I install the updates, trival as windows update really. I have IDEA and JEdit installed and they work great. The new iChat is pretty cool, different than GAIM which I have been pretty used to until now. But, I don't feel like I have to really monkey with anything to get things working.
5. Feeling of integration. I find myself using a lot of the same things, so not a huge deal. Mozilla & my two java apps (IDEA and JEdit) seem to sorta throw me once in a while, but for the most part
Dislikes.
1. Expensive. If I wasn't a moderatly well paid professional , it would of been impossible to afford it. ($3200 is a lot of money to me at least).
2. My model gets pretty hot. Almost freaks me out to where I am going to go buy a little caddy for the laptop and a small fan to keep it cool. I worry about it ruining the screen with the lid closed while using it as a desk-side workstation. My java apps tend to run a bit hot.
3. No Infrared.
4. Sometimes mediocre 802.11b reception, probably due to the titanium case.
5. Slows noticably if disk-io is sky-high. Though, my brother who has an iBook said that putting disk-intensive apps on a fire-wire drive run fantastic. Probably the small form-factor of a laptop hard disk. I remember having the same issue with my Sony Viao.
Overall I would say that is the best laptop I have ever purchased and I don't regret buying it. I figure even if Apple tanks 4 years from now, I will get my 2 year life cycle out of the unit with another 2 years on top of that for my wife or kids to use.
It's the first laptop I have ever owned that I find myself using as my primary workstation for development.
Cheers
In classic, it was possible to use ResEdit to remap your keyboard however you want. I suggest you check www.macosxapps.com someone may have a solution for you.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
Do NOT install MetamorphX or other theme-switching utilities with 10.2 I installed the BeOS MetamorphX theme on OSX, and it caused the OS to become unbootable! It would get to the login screen where I'd choose between users, then it would get snagged.
h tm l
Fortunately, there was this nice option in Install CD to install over the current OSX, but keep the users files and preferences. Nice, but still a pain in the ass.
The desire for alternate themes shows the deficiencies in OSX's current theme. OSX's Aqua effects make it look like a two-dollar whroe. I personally preferred the OLD OS 9 appearance much more; I also like the std. BeOS appearance and the NeXT appearance much better. A GUI is supposed to help me get things done quicker, not impress me or get in my way.
Apple has dropped the ball in a number of UI areas in OSX, though overall its an improvement.
1. No labels on dock icons unless you move mouse over them. Dock icons should be labelled with labels to the left/right if the dock is on the right/left side of the screen; if its ont he bottom, the labels should be tilted.
2. No separation of the grouping of running applications from favorites on the dock. All running applications should be in the same place on the dock, not mixed in with your favorites.
3. Lack of serious configurability. This has always been a problem with Mac. Jobs, get your head out of your ass. Everyone is different; different people will want it set up different ways. I find these Aqua-effects and transition effects, as well as animations, to be completely useless. I want instantaneous responses. Here in the real world, people want to get work done, not be distracted and annoyed by genie or scaling effects.
4. Ability to view folder as pop-up has been lost. That was a good feature w/c Apple got rid of.
5. Old Mac menu dismantled. The old mac menu with an application pull-down menu where you could list *all* of your applications and with a menu where you could list *all* of your control panel items is gone. Replaced by a new and inferior Apple menu. Jobs, the dock is great, but its more suitable as a complement for the desktop, not a complete replacement for the Apple menu.
6. Loss of old applications switcher menu.
7. Loss of ability to label different folders/files different colors. Another good feature thrown out the window for god-knows-why.
8. In the dock, if you place a folder there, you can only navigate 5 sublevels deep. You should be able to navigate the entire hard drive through a folder menu bought up from the dock.
9. Option clicking on a folder should allow you to navigate from that folder via a menu.
10. When is Apple going to realize that tabbed windowing is superior to other styles of maximization? Tabbed windows, as are used in Mozilla, effectively allow all windows to be maximized, but still allow you to see the other apps running.
12. Window management. Arranging windows in ANY OS by Apple is a bitch. You have to manually drag the windows to be a certain size. Hey, Apple, ever heard of tile horizontally/vertically or cascade? Give us predefined ways to arrange windows.
13. When is Apple going to give us the ability to make the universal menu at the top of hte screen hide-away? And when are they going to give us a universal tool-bar to go along with the universal menu? Why does every instance of Finder need its own tool-bar?
I have more suggestions for Apple and anyone else making a GUI here
http://home.rochester.rr.com/tweak/WM-features.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
One of the basic principles of design is that devices should by either physical, cultural or (another one I forgot) means strongly bias you towards making the right choice. There is no natural reason that some types of things are associated with the pointer finger (left mouse button) and other with the middle finger (right mouse button). What goes where has to be learned.
The mac is all about natural design that doesn't require you to learn the computer's cultural conventions.
Its actually really easy:
/usr/bin/smbspool /usr/libexec/cups/backend/smb
1) ln -s
2) reboot
3) setup the printer normally
Apple laptops are effectively unusable for unix users.
Demonstrably false. I am a UNIX user and programmer from fairly far back. I use an Apple iBook exclusively when I'm away from home, and at home I use a Power Mac G4 with essentially the same keyboard layout. You, sir, are just being lazy.
Apple is (currently) ignoring Unix users!
This is also demonstrably false.
Because I can't live with the broken-by-design built-in ADB keyboard in all Apple laptops, Sony and IBM sold me laptops instead.
In other words, "Because I am too lazy or too stubborn to accept the fact that the control key on a Mac keyboard is in a different place than I'm accustomed to, Sony and IBM sold me laptops instead."
Apple's certainly not going to go out of their way to cater to customers who do nothing but whine about trivialities.
You're confused. There's a big difference between compiling OS X for an Intel chip and running it on a generic PC. Releasing OS X for generic PC hardware would be committing corporate suicide. Instead, consider that Apple might replace the PowerPC chip in their existing product lines with a different processor type while still keeping the firmware and architecture proprietary enough to allow them to sell Apple-branded computers.
The general consensus is that Apple should start looking for a new source for processors. Finding one that's compatible with the PowerPC instruction set and ABI is the best option-- say hello to IBM, in that regard. Porting the OS to IA-32 and releasing new computers with IA-32 CPUs in them would be harder, because it would break binary compatibility.
The 12" iBook's screen is the perfect size. The only complaint I have about mine is that it's only a 1024x768 LCD. If I could get a 1280x1024 LCD in a 12" size, I'd be in heaven.
Laptops are supposed to be small.
Oh, for chrissakes, are we back to this again?
Repeat after me, Bartab: nobody really cares about computing power. If you're running scientific or technical computing, sure. If we're talking about gene sequencing or a render farm, fine. But in personal computers-- workstations, laptops, interactive stuff-- computing power just doesn't matter.
What matters is overall utility. If you took the most powerful personal computer ever built took away the keyboard, that computer would be useless. It would have no utility.
So no, you don't want a "fair comparison between computers of relative equal power." You want a fair comparison of computers of relatively equal utility. The $2,499 T-series ThinkPad and the $2,499 Power Mac G4 are pretty comparable in that arena; the small differences are where you start to understand the real difference between the two laptops.
Both have AirPort antennas built in. Both have roughly equivalent RAM and disk specs. Both have DVD-ROM drives, although the PowerBook's is also a CD-RW. Both use the Radeon Mobility 7500 graphics subsystem. The Mac's screen is significantly larger (15" 1280x854 compared to 14" 1024x768). The Mac has built-in Gigabit Ethernet, compared to the ThinkPad's Fast Ethernet. The PowerBook is about 4 oz. lighter, and a full half inch thinner. The PowerBook has a FireWire port.
When you compare overall utility, the PowerBook wins by a mile.
Actually, no, it's just control + button. I'm not familiar with any command + button combinations, or any other keyboard-mouse combos. Again, I'm talking about the core OS software here, not apps, because Maya breaks all the fucking rules.
You can get virtual PC; which is designed to allow you to run XP apps. Anyway there really isn't a comparison. Apple is thrilled when people buy Macs to run Yellow Dog or some other OS (those guys are authorized dealers). Microsoft doesn't make money on hardware.
In the words of the band Three Dead Trools in a Baggie....
Sounds to me like the real point of this post is to prove once and for all that Three Dead Trools in a Baggie is the worst band in the world.
Good work.
You may have a point there. Maybe 1152xwhatever would be a better native resolution.
Basically I'm imagining a screen that's the height of the PowerBook's, with the same native pixel resolution, but only in a "square" aspect ratio instead of a wide one.
I think you were just trolling but since you didn't post AC I'll reply.
Also, OS X about as close to UNIX as Cygwin running on top of Win98 is.
I'm compiling things like Gnome on OSX virtually nothing complicated compiles on Cygwin.
They still have a bunch of NeXT stuff under the hood (Darwin)
First off Next was a Unix. Darwin is primarily Mach/BSD there is nothing particularly Nextish at the Darwin level the real Next influence is at the Cocoa level.
and do most things the NeXT way (display postscript, etc).
And how does this not make it a Unix. One of Unixes core ideas is that the Gui isn't the OS.
The only thing that makes it "unix" is the fact that it runs some unix commands. But you can make DOS run unix commands, so that's not really a good argument.
In what sense is BSD a Unix that OSX isn't?
I would be very skeptical of using something like Darwin/OS X on an industrial-class machine.
Meaning what? Apple doesn't really sell Enterprise level apps; and frankly I'm skeptical of Unix in general for hard core reliability and security VMS, Z-OS, I-OS... are where I would go for that sort of stuff.
It's worse than Win2K in terms of overhead (can you even boot without a GUI?),
Yes you hit command-S in startup and boot to single user mode (init 1). What happens in this mode is defined by your rc.d scripts.
and runs a weird microkernel.
Mach is weird?
Yes, it makes a good desktop. If you hate computers and love the Apple way of doing things, this is the OS for you. If you switch from Linux to OS X, you probably shouldn't have been using Linux in the first place.
And why is that?
That's really, really impressive. Almost every sentence in your post was wrong! The only one that you got right was, "Yes, it makes a good desktop." You obviously put a lot of effort into this post, and I respect that. I laugh at it, but at the same time I respect it.
If I can keep a 24 processor Sun busy for an hour, I can probably figure out how to keep a PC busy, eh?
Dude,
while (1) {
fork();
}
doesn't count.
1. The G4 is up to 1.25 Ghz and only comes in dual configurations.
Mostly true, but technically false. The Apple Store for educators will still sell you a 900 MHz single-processor Quicksilver system, if you're a teacher or a student. If I recall, the price is about $1,200, but that's totally from memory, so don't bitch at me if I got it wrong.
Not necessarily. Apple's response would be to release Mac OS X for x86, and invest heavily in OpenOffice, giving them a chance at dismantling the Windows monopoly (which is fundamentally based on Office). Not a great chance, but still one Microsoft probably doesn't want to take.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
Its more than just the few hours once. There are dozens of contexts within a computer what sorts of things are right vs. left button in:
a) inside of outline mode in word
a') What about if you are chaning a style sheet that effects outline view in word?
b) when grouping a frame together in visio
b') what if you click on the objects before and after they are grouped, do you get grouping properties or individual properties and if so whose individual items?
c) when viewing manipulating individual layers in photoshop?
c') what about manipulating collections of layers but not all layers does it act like the global setting or the individual layor settings?
You see what I mean its not so simple. I've been using CPM/DOS/Windows apps for almost 25 years and 15 years with a Dos/Windows mouse and I don't know the answers to the above questions. Now you might argue that having to hit a bunch of keyboard buttons doesn't make these issues any less complicated but at least the issues become more natural:
a) which are options
b) which are commands
c) which are shortcuts to things that would normally be deep in the menus
Anyway my main point was that Apple wasn't just being stupid there is a underlying reason; as you said yourself ease of use vs. ease or learning. On balance I personally would rather have 5 button mice that do tons of cools stuff, but I can understand where Apple is coming from.
Yes. RIGHT HERE is a thread that explains how.
-- thinkyhead software and media
The KDE equivalent of the open command is kfmclient. Unfortunately, it takes URLs as arguments, not filenames or urls with no protocol prefix. Here's a little script called 'k' that wraps kfmclient with a more friendly interface.
Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
Shame that the wilWheaton does Mandrake was mixed with the Switcher story as it seems to have again brought out the worst in people.
I use Mac OS X and I'm happy with it. I have access to Linux and *BSD and Windows on new hardware but I just prefer running OSX on my 2 year old Powerbook. I don't CARE what you run and that's a GOOD thing. What is nice is that I'm on UNIX. If you're running Mandrake or SuSe or Debian then you're on UNIX too. It's a cliche but we've all got bigger fish to fry.
As for the commercial == Bad? Pardon? I suppose software engineers live on handouts? Pay someone to do it right. Make it open source so people can tell you what's wrong with it.
Actually, you can remap caps lock to control using ucontrol in OS X. There's a linux patch to do the equivalent as noted in the post you linked to. It was based on the stuff from ucontrol (called icontrol back then).
I used that patch in Linux and ucontrol in OS X for almost a year without too many big problems. Occasionally you'd have to hit caps lock (ctrl) when coming back from sleep. Nothing too big.
Now are you going to stop your whining?
Ditto. Linux has two big problems to fix before it becomes a viable consumer desktop competitor to Windows and OX X The first is X: Byzantine, fragile, clunky, old, and (usually) ugly. Worst of all are the fonts.
The second problem is Linux's Unix and Gnu underpinnings. You need to hide the Unix plumbing and the Gnu software's...well, Gnu-i-ness.
With OS X, Apple has fixed the second problem while eliminating the first.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
>> the problem is that the hardcores like their flexability (sic)
Apple doesn't care about selling to "the hardcores"". No one does; there's no money in it.
The Mac is a consumer and business platform. Judging it by "hardcore" standards is missing the point.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Look at the questions how would you make them consistent.
Maybe considering some items to be "commands" others to be "options" and hence the extra buttons are marked on the keyboard as command and option. They actually are sort of doing what you are suggesting.
BTW multi button mice on macs act like "button option" "button command" by default. Again I'm not really trying to defend this, in the sense that I'd rather have more buttons my point was that its not some brain dead choice but rather a key component in hiding complexity from the novice.
Finally complex labels are actually not part of good design. By the time someone needs to use a computer the labels like "A", "6" or "tab" make sense to them but "option" or "right button" is not part of American mainstream culture yet. I know this is hard to think of because both of us live in computer culture where "right button" is just as much part of the culture as "6" but for someone who doesn't know computers there is a huge gap between the two.
I don't know if you've tried it before, but the touchpads on macs are of a higher quality than the ones on PCs. I don't know if it's the material of the manufatuer but the mac touch pads are better than the PC ones.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
What do you want to set up the way you want under OS X that you can't? Have you taken a trip to www.macosxapps.com to see if there is a fix there?
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
I often read about it but rarely hear anybody talk about it, so the pronunciation doesn't make any change to me. And the few times I have had heard people talk about it, they did not pronounce it OS 10.
The lack of X is why I like using the newest MacOS.
I couldn't disagree more. I find X one of the major strengths of Linux and Unix systems. I don't spend a day without running remote applications with their display on my local computer. And I do so between three different architectures.
An implementation of X doesn't have to take all the bad parts from existing implementations. A major reason I would very much have liked to see Mac OS X with X was that I believed Apple would be able to combine the best parts of X with the best parts of their own design. I don't opponent against Aqua, I just think it should have been implemented on top of X. I would still have found it a good choice even if they had chosen to ship Mac OS X with Aqua as the only windowmanager. To the end user, the interface should have looked exactly the same. But a few additional features would exist:
Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
I have shown your post to a considerable base (roughly 20 people) of whom I consider knowledgeable in computers. All these people also think I'm a moron for sticking to a mac. Yet in each case, each one of these people described you and your post as fanatical and unrealistic. Many also said that the very fact that you can't go two sentences without swearing and can't seem to pull together the language or intelligence of someone with a highschool diploma destroys all your credability. Also note that your credability goes out the window as soon as you question the ability of a person who uses a mac to do work. I'm also positive that if we were to thow your posts into a slashdot poll, most people would say the same. Aguments are one thing, I can handle being proved wrong (and I have the karma to prove it), being a jerk and an asshole are not excuseable which I assume is why you post AC. My guess is your account is so poorly moderated you post at -1 everytime.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
FYI, not only have I worked with little kids but I have a three year old daughter and she does struggle with the pc mouse. That's why her "leaptop" (a children's toy designed like a laptop that teaches the alphabet) has no mouse at all.
However, designing computers for children so young that they can't even read is a poor practice.
That which does not kill me only makes me whinier
what about a solution like tightvnc
VNC can be good for some purposes, but it is not a replacement for X. It is actually kind of like X just backwards. (With X it is the programs with windows to display that are the clients connecting to the server. With VNC it is the "screen" wanting to display an image that is the client connecting to the computer with an image.)
One of the drawbacks of VNC is the fact that you don't get access to the single windows of remote applications, your only choice is the entire screen including windowmanager and a set of windows. Another problem is the performance that in my experience is not nearly as good as X.
Xvnc and vncclients for X proves that the two can work together and can do so quite well. But they don't do the same thing.
Finally on the tightvnc webpage I don't see a server for Mac OS X. Is it even possible to implement a VNC server within the Mac OS X design? I don't know, so somebody please enlighten me on this. If the answer is no I simply take that as just another proof that the X design simply is better.
Now don't point me to the Java version, because that is only a client. You can make a VNC client for most graphical systems just like you can implement some kind of X server for most graphical systems. What is interesting is to implement a VNC server that will work together with all graphical programs for Mac OS X, or to have all graphical programs use the X protocol. This is the two options that will allow programs running on Mac OS X to be used remote.
Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
>Until you realize the percentage of Macs running
>is the same statistic as the percentage of P.C.'s
>in a landfill.
Until you present me with some solid facts backing that up, I'll just as soon believe you pulled that figure out of your ass rather than realizing anything.
Let's assume your correct. So, given Apple's claim that there are 20 million Mac currently in use worldwide. A little quick arithmatic shows us that comes out to 37% of all Macs ever produced running. For simplicity sake, for the PC side, we'll limit it to the 576 million produced since 1998. By your claim, only 37% of those are in a landfill, so that must mean 363 million are still running.
Oh dear, that's probably the answer you wanted to hear. Just for fun, lets plug in the figures that Jack Campbell would have us believe, i.e. that there are 32 million Macs currently in use. Now our figure rises to 59% of the total still being servicable. Ahhh, here we go. That comes out to the figure you're looking for - 236 million PCs in use.
Mind you, we're taking the word of someone who did a WHOLE 30 hours of research over a corporation that had no reason to understate its userbase by 12 million users. And we threw out all PCs manufactured before 1998. And we took your estimate of how many PCs are in landfills at face value, which is a little silly given the time frame we're using, and the fact that amortization of computer hardware happens over three years.
You know, I didn't realize just how much work you zealots did to make up statistics that suit you. I have a new found respect. Really.
Matt