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Laptop Fuel Cells Approved For Air Carriage
gilgsn writes "According to reports in BusinessWeek, the US Department of Transportation has ruled that a new fuel cell developed by US company Polyfuel can be taken on airplanes. The announcement clears the way for the commercialisation of fuel cells as an alternative to batteries in notebook computers. The use of direct methanol fuel cells on aeroplanes has been questioned as they contain methanol, which is flammable. According to Jim Balcom, Polyfuel's CEO, the US DOT said that a fuel cell designed by his company could be taken into aircraft cabins when it goes on sale because it contains a relatively low concentration of methanol. Fuel cells are viewed as a promising power source in notebook comptuers as they are instantly refuellable (using fuel cartridges) and will power laptops two to three times longer than standard batteries. Full Story." This will be more exciting news when the fuel cells are actually available.
A Wired article touched on this previously.
The neat thing are the carbon nanotubes used to drive these things. NEC is working on fuel cells for phones.
---
Interview with GoDaddy President Bob Parsons
Jim Balcom, Polyfuel's CEO, the US DOT said that a fuel cell designed by his company could be taken into aircraft cabins when it goes on sale because it contains a relatively low concentration of methanol.
Just one might have a small amount, but what about the person who carries a bag full of them? Initial excuse being that there will be only a few places to get these when they first hit the market.
Jesus saves souls and redeems them for valuable cash prizes
Maybe they can be refueled at the lavatory.
33 years old and still making potty jokes. It's sad, really.
Li-ion isn't the safest technology, When Lithium Ion batteries were first released 4 years ago(Sic!) they were actually banned from transportation on aircraft. Unsolved problems with batteries exploding violently resulted in the ban. [transair.com] Let's hope that some lessons has been learned and this won't happen this time around. Though, Li-ion batteries are still used today because of better safety regulations [nec-tokin.net] and even built in microprocessors to protect from overcharging. Lithium will still explode or overheat if charged at a too high voltage and if it catches fire, don't try to put it out with water!
The advantages of Li-ion obviously outweight the hazards and since fuel-cells don't seem any worse they will probably get accepted too. Apart from
better performance they might find a niche already because of normal batteries abysmal heat specifications. My laptop battery is not to be operated at temperatures higher than 35 degrees celcius, which really is impossible to achieve if you are using the computer standing on a desk. Not considering people in hotter countries or scientists at the southpole...
Look here for a more balanced story on battery technology [extremetech.com]
I'll buy a laptop that has a methanol fuel cell in it when I can plug my laptop into any wall socket to recharge my methanol supply. Sure methanol may last way longer, but the readily availiable supply of electricity far outweighs the benefits of the longer lasting fuel cell.
Bork!
it seems the guy in front of me has been bringing gas on airplanes for years... did this really need to go to court?
MARIJUANA, SHROOMS, X: ONLINE?! - E
We already allow people to accidentally carry on more dangerous materials such as containers under pressure, pocket knives, knitting needles, and illegal MP3s. What is the harm with someone finally having enough battery power to operate their laptop for the duration of a flight from LA to Hong Kong? Nothing.
Hydrogen is much less dangerous than everyone in the pro-oil community is saying. It wasn't even the cause of the Hindenburg fire, as the mythical tale of why hydrogen is bad says. If we are going to fly on planes with tonnes of flammable material under our butts, then what is the harm of having some flammable material in a much smaller quantity on our laps? If we outlaw everything that might catch fire, then we shouldn't allow fat people on planes, because their fat may liquify, and they would spontaneously combust.
Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
I can see it now - all those busines-class air travelers sitting with their laptops open, little puffs of steam bubbling out every few minutes...
That being said:
This could be a boon to the more adventurous computer users. Instead of having to drag a solar pack around, and a bag of spare batteries, a jug of methanol and you'll be set for weeks!
What will the new measurement be - MIPS/liter?
One thing to ask is, how much do these suckers weigh, and how big are they? If they're huge and huge they're not going to embraced by laptop users. The PDF file has a picture of a fuel cell (p8) that's the length of laptop. Some laptops still use big ones like that but many have made more compact batteries. Another page shows an external-type cell (p14), which might be nice for airlines, etc, but at the size given isn't anything hugely innovative.
The article also states that they power laptops 2-3 times longer than standard batteries. So what's standard? Between different laptops, and depending on activity, there can be a significant difference how long batteries last. A hard estimate of how long they last under normal conditions (no CD's etc running all the time) would be a lot nicer. Call me suspicious but they also say 2-3 times longer than standard batties. My laptop doesn't run very long at all on a few AA's (insert smiles here).
Lastly, just a poke at the article because I hate lazy editors:
also -notebook comptuers- it would be nice if the reporter could spell
Why the heck are they worried about flammable alcohol in my computer when the stewardess will give me two shots of 100 proof vodka that burns quite nicely?
This could turn into a big cottage industry for local stores. For $10 a month you could have a pair of fuel cells out, and once they are gone you drop them up and pick up two more. I sure as hell would pay the extra for the longer battery life.
First cars are going to electrical motors, now laptops are using fuel cells. Why not a diesel powered cell phone ?
Next thing you'll tell me is that there is like a tenth planet or something.
Damn slashdot. I used to be a normal person.
"One for you, one for me. One for you..."
One way or another, today's young go-getters are going to end up high on meths. Oh the canadian irony.
-- Proud descendant of semi-nomadic cattle-herders.
They don't seem to have a problem selling you bottles of vodka from the duty free cart...
You could make a pretty nice fireball with a couple of those.
I hope that some one comes up with a smalll enough package that it can be designed to fit into the variouse packaging design that diffrent Laptop makers have for there batteries. I would certainly purchase a fuel cell for my laptop.
True capitalism = lots of similar companies = jobs for everyone who wants one.
Screw the airplane--what about my lap? I mean seriously, an airplane is a lot harder to set aflame than my cordurouys.
---- El diablo esta en mis pantalones! Mire, mire!
of course .... and when your laptop power supply is running low just pop that call button ....
As much as I'd like to run my laptop on fuel cells, this sounds like a potential loophole for carrying far more-flammable fuels onto airplanes. Not that there are people who would go to the trouble of implementing something like that when they could just fill their shoes...
O.M.G -- To think that for all these years, I've been flying in airplanes accompanied by dozens of little 1-ounce TICKING TIME BOMBS in the beverage cart -- each one filled with a FLAMMABLE ethanol mixture!
I'm not stepping onto an airplane again until this situation is fixed!!!
(Hmm... I could offer to dispose of these dangerous articles at no charge to the arlines.)
Something about salt and a flash cube spring to mind
Look Ma no cabin pressure
... but this post doesn't excite me as much as it might have a year ago. The problem is that I fear laptops will sooner or later be banned from airplanes due to wireless interference concerns.
I've been looking at laptops lately, a lot of them have built in 802.11 and bluetooth. Problem is: how do you know if they are on or off? The average business user who has no idea what his/her laptop is capable of is expected to know to turn the wireless stuff off. Because of this there has been chatter about banning laptops all together.
It seems to me that air-travel should be a larger concern for mobile devices these days. My cell phone that has all these organizer and game features doesn't have an 'airplane' profile that shuts down the transmitters on it. Should laptops have 'Airplane' profiles too?
In any case, I know it's a little off topic. It's nice to see a company saying "we'll get this approved for use in the air", but arguably air travel is their target market. Personally, I wouldn't invest in them until I knew more about what the future holds for computing devices in the air.
"Derp de derp."
Here's a picture of a battery pack made up of A cells --
click here (from www.radicalrc.com)
You won't find single A cells at the grocery store, but they're still used in battery packs like this -- for laptops, camcorders, R/C planes and cars, etc. You use them when AA is too small, and sub-C is too big.
For more on the clinical side of methanol click here.
For the person that replied saying that methanol was in alcoholic drinks, there are some trace amounts of methanol in alchoholic beverages, as well as several household products, but the primary alcohol present is ethanol. While still technically a poison, it is not nearly as toxic as its chemical siblings and is easily metabalized into harmless byproducts.
FYI: Ethanol in labs is "denatured" with methanol to made it so it is too toxic to drink. (We couldn't have highschoolers hangin in the supply room drinking 199 proof now could we? ;) )
Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
And when did a set of box cutters bring down an airplane? Ahh I see the same way alchol causes cars to crash. Bad example?
And also the normal components inside of your computer are very carcinogenic, the recycled air in the cabin can be harmful, etc, etc.
A mildly poisonous (compared to, for example, household bleach) chemical like methanol won't do you any harm in a sealed container in quantities of less than an ounce, as in a laptop fuel cell.
May I also remind you that the ethanol you buy at the store is denatured with methanol anyway. You probably already have a good amout of this toxic stuff already sitting in your medicine cabinet. We deal with extremely toxic stuff all the time. For example, aspirin is much more toxic than methanol. Try eating 1 cup of aspirin. You'd die of liver failure.
We can't just let all of these irrational fears get in the way of advancement.
If you don't understand any of my sayings, come to me in private and I shall take you in my German mouth.
Geek 2
Geek 3
Geek 2
Geek 1
Geek 3
*** Sound of several minutes of apparent use of tools ***
Geek 1
Geek 2
Geek 3
*** Static (or various moans and cries with a dark voice rambling "Liberate Tuteme Ex Infernus"(sp?) if you're in a marcabre mood.) ***
Hate me!
However, if tehy do not last long, and users are having to swap them out constantly, doesn't that pose a fire hazard? (having 2 fuel cells per lap top toting passenger?)
When you think about it, the methanol is encapsulated and is a fairly small amount (50 mL maybe?)
When you order your shot of scotch on the plane, you have a flammable liquid which is not encapsulated at all, and is slightly more volatile than methanol.
If you don't understand any of my sayings, come to me in private and I shall take you in my German mouth.
i was thinking a little while back: "man wouldn't it nice if we had atomic power, like minature tokamacks or whatnot for cars, cd players, laptops, etc etc.
and then it hit me -- no way man, it would suck ass. when you can store enough energy to run a car for 50 years in the size of a gas tank, what happens if something goes wrong (as it obviously will) with the storage? if somebody *intentially* sets it off, etc?
there are all these scientists out there who are striving for higher and higher power density in energy storage -- but i think there is an end; not necessarily the "diminishing returns" end, but a "maybe it's not a good idea for a AA battery to have enough juice to power a cadillac" -- because when you get enough power density in everyone's hands, everyone will have the power to blow a whole lotta stuff up.
this will probabbly become the next great hurdle in energy storage -- and ironically it's not even a technical challenge, but rather a socialogical one.
My life in the land of the rising sun.
And used butane lighters to light their smokes? I imagine the amount of fuel in these cells is less than the amount of butane in a bic lighter, besides, fuel cells are not really a puncturable container that could spill its methanol (and let it light up)
I can't see direct-methanol fuel cells not making it to production and widespread use in all sorts of things from laptops to cars. They have all the positive qualities of regular (hydrogen) fuel cells, but they have a few more really significant advantages:
1. They're easily rechargable. Anyone can pour a weak methanol solution from a bottle into a fuel cell's reservoir, but not everyone has the equipment (or desire) to store compressed hydrogen in their home or car.
2. They're stigma-free. Mention hydrogen and the first thing many people think of is the hindenburg. While it's true that hydrogen was _not_ the cause of the disaster (entire thing was covered in flammable paint), many people think it is and will shy away from hydrogen-powered cars and appliances for that reason. As far as I know, there have been no significant disasters for which methanol has been blamed. (Disclaimer: I may be wrong.)
3. A weak methanol solution really is safe - it's not going to hurt you unless you drink it. (Methanol isn't drinkable alcohol, that's ethanol. Methanol is converted by the body into formaldehyde, the stuff you use to preserve dead things.)
smirnof wasn't a petrochemical
Obviously, you haven't tasted it. OOhh... maybe you'd like some Tvarski, or Dark Eyes, too.
The only good thing the commies did for Russia was to keep Stoly good. Yeah, the good Stoly is gone, but so are is the enormous, powerful group of smart people who wanted to kill us. I guess it's a good trade. I still miss good vodka, though.
And for all my ranting, I'm not a vodka snob. I'm a beer snob.
If you ran out of fuel, you could just ask the stewardess for one of those little bottles of vodka..
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I hate to see it so soon, but I gaurantee everyone here that we'll soon start seeing ad campaigns against these things in public. They'll be pushed by these same, uninformed opinions.
Sigh...such is free speech.
What's this Submit thingy do?
If you're talking about "rubbing alcohol," that's not ethanol...it's usually isopropanol. If you're talking about Everclear, it had better not be denatured.
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
If this is any more than vapor, this is excellent news for alternative transportation.
:)
Here's why: People have been working hybrid electric vehicles and decent batteries for decades. It was ONLY AFTER the cell phone and laptop boom that there was any significant advancement in rechargeable battery technology. So now we can make HEVs (and hopefully real electric vehicles).
If the idea of using fuel cells in laptops, cell phones, etc. takes off, we might end up with a generation of very useable fuel cells that we can apply to vehicle technology.
Of course, Detroit, Evil Oil Companies, and Starbucks will probably conspire and prevent this from happening
...of Osama saying "Hrblt k jethig Beowulf ad og" (Imagine a Beowulf cluster of thóse...)
+++ath0
Some laptops use as much as 70 watts of power. That's not much less than a human being uses at rest (such as sitting in an airline seat). Airlines barely circulate enough air into the cabin now to keep people from passing out. With fuel cells sucking up more of the available oxygens, airlines may have to provide more air--and they might not get around real soon to doing that. I hope it doesn't cause anyone serious breathing problems.
This is not nearly as disturbing as something I heard the other day.
.
.
The actually sell these little wooden sticks that are tipped with chemicals such that when rubbed against the box the chemicals ignite and, in turn, ignite the wood.
If you think that is bad, they even have special ones that will ignite when rubbed against any number of common items, such as the "zipper" on so-called "Levi's." (Which, I understand, are allowed on aircraft.)
The really amazing part is that these things will slip right past even the most astute airport screener and can be purchased at any grocery store without a special license!
I have heard rumors about a secret type of these things, which I hear are called "matches," though I don't know what it is they are supposed to "match," that are made from chemically treated paper. This type supposedly comes in "books" that are so small they can be easily hidden in the palm of one's hand, and are essentially undetectable.
We live in ghastly days . .
-Peter
PS: Rubbing alcohol doesn't explode, nitwit. Oh, and I don't know where you are from, but where I live "boosting" a car and "jumping" a car are two totally different things.
I'm starting to see how this is all going to pan out. Apologies to those who already figured it out.
so HP makes most of its money off of proprietary inkjet refill carts. It's the disposable razor model, where you get the printer for a song, but the supplies suck you dry. now with fuel cells, for the sake of 'safe transferrance' of fuel to the cell, the fuel cell supplier will sell you fuel packs in proprietary cases (probably with microchips (ala Epson ink carts) to deter 'piracy' (ie third parties)). The batteries will go for a song, and at $10 each the refills won't seem prohibitively expensive. heck, you could get a 10-pack for $70 at costco, most likely.
But use them day after day for your commute to work, use them on planes, on vacation so you don't have to lug a power supply (since you'll be able to buy them on demand all over the world, like film) and suddenly a huge new industry emerges, because we're too clumsy to put methanol into a compartment without NASA-level safeguards.
Yeah, I'm bitter, but this is how the world works. Things don't come to market because they're better; things come to market when people figure out how to get rich off it.
Kevin Fox
To pose a more important question, "Why recharge slowly, when you can refill directly and with less waste?" You want to wait for electricity being generated hundreds of kms away to slowly reorganized the chemistry in your battery, or just readd the needed chemistry parts, right there instantly?
Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
I'd prefer Ethanol as a fuel, at least if it can tolerate a small amount of water rather than requiring anhydrous. Airplanes could start carrying the full-strength Everclear (apparently the 192-proof is illegal in California, so we can only get 151 here, but I assume the real stuff is available.) (For non-US readers, this is 96%-pure ethanol, with the other 4% being water.) And unlike methanol, it's relatively non-poisonous. So while you wouldn't have a fuel line feeding directly into your laptop from the airline seat, it'd still be convenient, and you could drink the leftovers....
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Yeah, you're right. I can only hold two alcohols in my head at a time, for some reason. I realized my error after posting. I'm a nitwit too ;-)
." Comeon.
Anyway, correcting that fact doesn't change the conclusion.
"If only Peter hadn't accidentally opened his fuelcell, distilled the alcohol, vaporized it, mixed it with air, copressed it and heated it in a closed container . .
-Peter
I wonder if you could do an emergencey ethanol refill using an airline vodka bottle?
134340: I am not a number. I am a free planet!
In grade school physics class we made methanol and ethanol from wood. Taking what amounted to skinny popsicle sticks and heating them in a test tube we were able to get both methanol and ethanol out of it. Granted, this may not be the most economicaly efficient way to obtain methanol, but it's not strictly a fossil fuel derrivative.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Try take a 1.5v D cell and run steel wool accross the terminals. We used to start campfires that way back in my scouting days.
134340: I am not a number. I am a free planet!
Correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't most laptop batteries flammable - most seem to have all sorts of warnings plastered over them warning not to dispose by fire, etc...
,it's time to pour more liquid nitrogen over the CPU......
Then again, my laptop gets hot enough to fry an egg, but has yet to burst into flames... Speaking of which
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
He would love it more if it was powered by cocaine. He will of course veto the prezel powered fuel cells.
If you're talking about "rubbing alcohol," that's not ethanol...it's usually isopropanol.
It's usually isopropanol. But often, it is denatured ethanol. Rubbing alcohol is isopropanol. Denatured ethanol is usually just labeled "Denatured Alcohol." I've got a bottle of it in my bathroom right now.
If you don't understand any of my sayings, come to me in private and I shall take you in my German mouth.
Of course, there is another option -- one that doesn't cost anybody their civil liberties, and would actually be effective against plane hijaakers...
Simply build a thick metal wall between the pilot's cabin and the rest of the plane. Yes, you'd have to take out a few rows in first class to accomodate a separate pilot's restroom and a separate door so the pilots could get in and out, but once that was done, sneaking weapons onto a plane wouldn't do a terrorist much more good than sneaking them into, say, a shopping mall. The terrorists wouldn't be able to take control of the plane, even if the pilots wanted them to.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
"No, no, no. Don't tug on that. You never know what it might be attached to."
Yeah, or you could just buy a big bottle of methanol.
Actually, that was a fusion device called "Mr. Fusion." The key is to place it on the front of a DMC Delorian.
There are exactly 42,935,718 letter sized sheets in a square mile.
In Brazil, which doesn't have any oil, they have been producing methanol from cane sugar amongst other things.
Lufthansa provides 115vac for long haul in business.
As long as there are babies and children wailing on planes, there's too much damn oxygen in the plane as far as I'm concerned. Perhaps the drain of oxygen by my laptop will keep everyone around me quiet, and I can use my laptop in peace.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I can't quite remember how the refills worked, but I had the feeling they came in disposable bottles - are these bottles also OK'ed for taking on planes, or are we back to square one when they realize we have to check luggage to have spare power for the laptop when we arrive?
I'm personally not convinced it's going to be more convienient to find a fuel cell refill than a power outlet for the next 10 years or so. Even if the battery life is longer (which is great), when you're out, you're out and I don't want to have to play parent to my laptop and take a thousand bottles of "laptop formula" with me on trips to feed the thing.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The small quantities of methanol, and the dilution with water, means the risk is pretty low (you could cause more trouble, I guess, breaking out the lithium from your batteries and adding it to water - don't try this at home,folks).
For those who are asking, that article also explains why it is difficult to scale these cells up to automotive use.
One problem for the automotive industry is that methanol attacks many of the components of the current fuel distribution system, which is quite sensitive to the chemical composition of what it carries. At one time you could find carburetor conversion kits for some British motorcycles which included gaskets of different materials to handle this problem, and I tried this during the 1970s fuel crisis. Handling pure methanol without a standard fuel pump is not much fun, but it surely cleans out the carbon from the engine and the experiments were worth it just from that point of view.
And btw, rubbing alcohol WILL NOT WORK in your methanol fuel cell, neither will vodka.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
I'd take a wild guess that you're both right :)
The ethanol is denatured so that it is too toxic to drink, thus avoiding the taxes on alcohol intended for human consumption.
Preventing the flying-into-buildings thing alone is a damn sight better than the current system, and I would argue that it would partially prevent "old-style" hijackings as well -- there is nothing to physically force the pilots to do what the terrorists want. Yes, the terrorists could still threaten to torture passengers or blow up the plane, but in the final equation, the pilots could always just turn off the intercom and land at the nearest airport. These days, I think even if passengers were killed, this would be considered acceptable to allowing terrorists any control over an aircraft.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen Saving Private Ryan, so I can't comment on that.... but I think a plane the size of a 747 could probably carry a few thousand extra pounds.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
Relax, it's the battery that can run that long. If the battery is made in the size that fits in your 'puter, just buy it when it becomes available...
Actually, the most common non-scientific name for Methanol is "Wood Alcohol". This name derives from one method of producing it -- heat wood chips in an enclosed container and condense the vapor which comes off of it. IIRC, the same process works with most plant matter, which means you could fuel your laptop with distilled lawn clippings.
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?