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More on the KDE League
An anonymous reader writes "Timothy Butler published a nice clean-up on the misinformations that were published by dep on Linux and Main. Most of what that has been alleged by Linux and Main turns out to be wrong. Especially, the KDE League has no obligation to disclose financial information. On dot.kde.org, Mathias Kalle Dallheimer, KDE e.V. president, explains that the KDE e.V would authorize the KDE League to disclose its books to the KDE e.V members. However, the KDE e.V is not the only member of the KDE League. Other members would have to approve this."
I am glad that these misinformations are not allowed to persist. It's tragic when someone else sets out on a PR war crusade against an Open Source project with the only goal of causing damage and mistrust.
Thank you Tim, Kalle and Slashdot for your efforts to combat this.
(Please browse at -1 to read this comment.)
Corruption in multi-billion dollar corporations. CEO's going down faster than a hooker on ephedrine.
Now, here comes the OPEN SOURCE book keeping. Does this mean we'll get to see the live, play-by-play webcasted extortion, with the source code to match?
god, getting people busted pwns.
I worry that this sort of thing feeds into the 'crackpot' image many in business seem to have of the community...
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
Dilbert may hold the answer
What a bunch of crap, just because someone posts an article that was actually researched OFB is a "KDE mouthpiece". Point out one part of his article that is factually incorrect. Can't do it, can you?
:P You want it, *now*, even though you have no right to anything at all.
How come you totally neglect the fact that not one thing in DEP's articles was true, including comments he attributed to the Delaware Secretary of State's office that they deny ever making, anyone in their office making, and are factually incorrect. Someone refutes a mostly imaginary FUD article and you say they are a "KDE mouthpiece". No one talks about making up quotes and facts, but still troll KDE when they did absolutely nothing wrong.
How about the fact that the Gnome foundation hasn't released their financials yet? You'd think you'd at least give the KDE League the same amount of time they get considering they started later, but no
This whole story is crap, and proved to be lies.
OfB demonstrated with actual facts (gasp!), on-record quotes from the actual responsible authorities (gasp!) that DEP lied and made up information he published in his articles.
Do you have anything factual to add, or do you just need more aluminum foil in your hat?
1. There is no IRS not-for-profit database. There is guidestar and http://wwww.guidestar.org/ does not always have the most up to date information. Often there filings are 1 or two years behind or might not exist at all.
2. If the KDE league is not a 501(c)3 then what the heck is the KDE league?
I believe the KDE leagues corporate filings should be available from the State of Deleware.
Yes, by definition
How about mentioning something useful ?. is KDE 3.04 is out, with several bugfixes (including two security advisories and several memory leaks in the libs).
Obviously the proper way to handle this is to start a New League. Call it the Gnome League, or maybe the Sawfish League. Let the KDE league play with themselves most of the year*, and the Gnome League play with THEMSELVES most of the year*, and bring the best teams from each league together at the end of the year for one big series. Sell tickets, get it on ABC or ESPN, it'll be great. Maybe you could get Don King and pugil sticks involved somehow, with Natalie Portman as sideline reporter girl.
*you know that is how they spend most of their free time anyway...
hmm... IMHO from the DEP atricle, it sounds like KDE and OFB are SOL, but WTF do I know, I didnt RTFM... and better yet, WGASA?
TTFN!
Humor Folks, enjoy it! =)
This is my sig. Its pathetic.
The KDE League bylaws clearly state that it is a nonprofit, and the article makes the case that it is not a 501(c)(3) organization. Is it, then, a 501(c)(6) organization (a business league)?
If so, there are, indeed, public disclosure requirements imposed by the IRS. See this page and read the last paragraph. Yes, this page applies to all nonprofits, including business leagues, as this page makes clear. If, in fact, the KDE League is a "business league", Dennis Powell (no matter how much of a jerk you or I might think he is, and believe me, I'm not a fan) was within his legal rights to ask for disclosures. He is not be entitled to the full books, but he is entitled to "the last three annual information returns".
If the KDE league is not a 501(c)(6) either, then I don't see how it can be a legal nonprofit at all, in which case they owe Delaware filing fees that haven't been paid.
You can't just say that you're an ordinary corporation that doesn't expect to make money. With such a status you have to pay filing fees to the state of Delaware, and Delaware is now saying that the league doesn't owe them. So which is it? Either KDE League has to pay Delaware or they have to give Dennis Powell their annual information report. One or the other.
If I'm wrong, then it must be the case that the KDE League has some alternate legal status that I'm not familiar with. If so, what is it?
I'm not saying this to attack KDE. KDE and the KDE League are distinct entities, and I'm not seeing any evidence that the KDE League is serving the interests of KDE's developers or users. Any responses should leave the personality or beliefs of Dennis Powell out, as they are irrelevant.
What is the KDE League?
Kind of like the Justice League of America, but without attractive people in leather tights, superpowers or monkeys.
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
What *I* don't get in all of this is - isn't the KDE League getting its money from private corporations (I see NO individuals in the members list, only corporations, several of which are rather large)...one of whom is KDE e.V. (Am I reading this correctly)? Who in turn says they've got no reason to believe anything funny's going on? It's THEIR money - if THEY don't think anything wrong is being done with it, why the heck does anyone who DIDN'T give them money care?
I've only seen one entity that actually ever had anything to do with the KDE League complain, and that's Shawn Gordon, whose company apparently USED TO BE a member (but are not any more, as far as I know. Unpleasant 'break-up', perhaps?).
I keep seeing comparisons with the Gnome Foundation, which is a completely different type of group. The Gnome Foundation, as I understand it, is directly involved in steering Gnome development - it's actually an official part of the Gnome project(s). The KDE League is purely promotional - to put it bluntly, the KDE League is a "Fan Club". They have no more involvement in 'steering' or otherwise influencing development than any other fan of KDE does.
It's also been pointed out elsewhere that $120,000 is a lot of money when it's sitting in a suitcase on your doorstep in the form of small unmarked bills, but it's a pittance when considered as a yearly budget for any kind of corporation. I think the highest-paid individual there is said to have been paid $36k/year salary to run it. Take out that, rent on facilities, purchase of equipment, and so on, and there's not much left...
Now, as to whether or not the KDE League is effective at DOING anything, I couldn't say. I do certainly get the impression that they've not been active at all (basically, as far as I know, they've spent the little funding they had by just merely existing, and not really accomplishing anything), but given that the unrelated-except-by-name-and-theme KDE Software projects (that is, the actual developers, etc., who have no relationship with the KDE League as far as I know) seem to be doing just fine without the KDE League's additional promotion, I'm not too concerned about it. For all I care, the KDE League could have spent all the money on cheap prostitutes, malt liquor, and pornographic videos featuring necropedobestiality, and it will have still done no more harm than wasting a few thousand dollars each from a handful of private corporations (there are 10 listed on the members page - if they all donated the same amount, that's a "whopping" $12,000 each. That's barely pocket-change to corporations like IBM and Fujitsu-Siemens...), who don't seem to even care what happened to THEIR money...
'Scuze the long post, I'm just utterly baffled at all the screaming going on over this thing. I could understand a chorus of "Ha, ha, member corporations, you wasted your money", but shrieking hatred of the sort reserved for Enron and Worldcom and so on just makes no sense to me at all...
Hacker Public Radio is our Friend
Is it so difficult to look at their site for the member list?
The monkeys, I assume, are in the Ximian League? :)
The KDE League is essentially a "fan club". It was formed, independent of the actual KDE software projects, to promote KDE.
It would be like ME setting up "The Microsoft League" in my basement, and selling Memberships to, say, Compaq, Intuit Software, Ziff-Davis, and a handful of other corporations who like Microsoft. I would have no direct relationship with Microsoft, I'd just be claiming I want to "promote Microsoft".
In this hypothetical case, Compaq, Intuit, etc. may end up having wasted the money they gave me, but it still has no effect on Microsoft...
Dennis E. Powell posted a somewhat sensational story claiming that the KDE League had ceased to exist, asking "what happened to the money?" and so on. (Several people have accused DEP of having a sort of 'vendetta' against KDE in general over political disagreements he had with people on a KDE-mailinglist-hosted-but-not-KDE-related mailing list (i.e. the 'all topics other than KDE' mailing list) - DEP had posted an editorial which began with an implication that maybe the "K" in KDE was there because it resembled a goose-stepping soldier) Andreas Pour of the KDE League posted a response to DEP's story on the KDE League saying, in essence, "It's merely a clerical error, we're getting it sorted out, and we really can't say much more without approval from our members". DEP posted a story in response saying (my interpretation/summary) - "Delaware says you're a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, so you have to tell us WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MONEY!". The most recent exchange here seems to be Pour saying "We're not a 501(c)(3), We called Delaware and they said A)They didn't say we were B)Nobody there should say were were and C)No, we're NOT a 501(c)(3)", and DEP's response that he "stands by his story".
As I posted above, I am puzzled why all the noise is coming out of this - it looks like what we have is a handful of rabid pro- and anti- KDE people all getting caught up in the sensationalism. The small handful of ANTI-KDE folks yelling because they want to discredit KDE, and the PRO-KDE folks yelling because they either feel they're being slandered or are worried that the KDE software projects are somehow being "ripped off" by the KDE League (presumably in the mistaken belief that the KDE League is analogous to the Gnome Foundation rather than merely a 'fan club'). The sheer volume of the screaming seems to be bringing attention from a whole mess or more normal people who are trying to figure out what all the fuss is about...
Disclaimer - the above is entirely my interpretation, except were indicated, and could very well be wrong. That IS how I see this issue, though...
Hacker Public Radio is our Friend
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Too much of all this KDE League Bunk is just hogwash.
Is anyone here, asside from myself able to make a couple of clicks and read for themselves?
It is VERY VERY clear that the KDE League is supposed to be a Public Relations front for KDE.
It is also quite clear that it is a not for profit, not a non-profit.
It is also quite clear that they are not working as a PR group and that moneys are being piped from for profits into the hands of a special few.
The State Attorney General of Delaware needs to be looking into this organization to see exactly what the story is and should be contacting the members.
I don't hold any stock in the companies that are members, but if I did I would be sending letters to the Boards of those companies asking for clarification.
One thing is for certain there's smoke and KDE League appears to be pulling PR pranks to pretend that it's just a low level fog, and nothings burning.
And before the legal dogs start barking at my door I want to make it clear that this is my OPINION, each of you are free to explore the facts and form your own.
> DEP did nothing but ask questions and make available information as it was presented and mostly what I saw was character attacks rather than questions answered.
Uh, the KDE league is a private corporation that has nothing to do with the KDE Project (i.e, KDE e.V) It doesn't need to disclose anything to you. Are you going to go and ask Microsoft, Dell, RedHat, and Intel for all of their private financial records?
> Perhaps my clients and I will be better served by GNOME and leave KDE to the thieves.
=troll
>How humiliating for KDE and open source!
=FUD
Number one, the IRS database is not exhaustive. You're not required to file for a letter recognizing your 501(c)3 status from the IRS for 15 months from the creation of your organization, or 27 with the automtic extention. You're additionally not required to file if your gross annual receipts are less than $5k.
Additionally, there are many types of non-profit organizations of which 501(c)3's are only a small subjection - non-profit organizations that are *ALSO* CHARITIBLE organizations. All IRS-recognized non-profits are tax-exempt, but only CHARITIBLE ones (501(c)3's and a very few others) can accept TAX-DEDUCTIBLE contributions.
Basically, the REAL question here is this:
Does the KDE League accept tax-deductible contributions? If yes, then they're likely required to have accounting information publically available (but not much - just their Form 990's), if not, then they're not.
Ultimately, it is up to the members of an organization to keep track of the organization's accounting (the rights of the members to access the accounting information is a matter of state law) and the people making contributions to make sure their contribution will be spent effectively when they make the contribution.
Not a member and not giving money and the organization is not a public charitible organization (which it does not appear the KDE league is?) Then its none of your business what they do with their money.
There seems to be a misconception that non-profit = public or that non-profit = charitible. Neither of those is true.
paintball