Slashdot Mirror
Is Remote Keyless Entry Any Safer Than It Used to Be?
Clue4All asks: "The time has come for me to start looking for a new car to buy after the winter snows have come and gone. Every car I'm interested in seems to come standard with Remote Keyless Entry with all their models. Has this technology become safer since I last bought a car? I remember seeing a news story years ago about burglars receiving signals used to open garage doors, and Google turned up articles like this from a few years ago. Apparently, some keyless entry systems now use "code hopping," which changes the signal after each use, making copying the signals pretty hard. I've requested information from a few car companies as to whether they employ such technology, what are your findings? Are these safe? I ask because I live in an apartment complex, not that I'd worry about anyone living around me doing something like this, but the thought is still there."
I'll just use a jedi mind trick on the inanimate motor!
Seriously, ask the dealer. If the dealer doesn't know, make them find out or call the manufacturer. Someone should be able to tell you what type of security they utilize.
If they wanted to get into your car, which do you think they are going to do: Spend the time/money on a code grabber and wait for you to drive up, park, and get your code...or just break your window...or try the car next to yours that is unlocked.
First, to answer your question: remote keyless entry has become a lot safer in the last years.
However, this is not so relevant. When people want to steal your car, they will steal it. No anti-theft system is completely safe. Even when it is impossible to open your car, they will simply wait for you to open it. This means that the best solution is to discourage people from stealing your car. Buy a model that is not too attractive. Don't leave your car in unsafe neighbourhoods.
One last suggestion: if someone shows up and threatens you, just give him the keys. Your life is worth much more than your car.
My wife's Saturn is a 97 and it uses code hopping. In fact the car gets pissed off if you only use the key to open the door if the alarm has been armed.
In Republican America phones tap you.
Don't forget to ask for battery time when you are at it. If the batteries run out quick, you will get very frustrated.
Anything installed from the factory is bound to be the cheapest possible component. AudioVox makes alot of these factory units (the car companies don't actually make their own car alarms)...But it depends on what kind of alarm is being installed...if it's sold for under $40k, most likely it doesn't have code hopping...so do what I did and buy a vehicle without an alarm and simply have a good one installed by a local shop that warantees their service (no crap from Wal-Mart or Best Buy).
It's true that modern security system installation is nothing but a connection kit...some of em don't even have to drill holes...but they can still skrew it up if they don't know what they're doing...
In most cases you're talking about $99 for a factory installed alarm. And a good unit from Viper (500ESP+) that will have the code hopping feature is gonna cost you at least $300. The other advantages of a GOOD alarm system is that you can install modules like power window/sunroof and remote start (for automatics).
Anyhow, it's not really smart to rely on those factory alarms for security.
In anycase, if you are worried about remote entry locks for cars, maybe you should get a bike w/ a $35 Kypto lock, I hear they are a lot safer and definitely cheaper insurance.
-- ladies and gentlemen we are floating in space!
Here's a question I've never seen addressed:
What if you have multiple remotes?
If, for example, you've got two cars, each with their own garage door opener remote, and the remote uses code hopping, how does the 2nd remote know what code to use after the last time the 1st remote was used?
(obviously, it can't "know," which is the problem).
Do these things use some kind of challenge/response system, with a different challenge each time?
Or are you simply stuck with only being able to use one remote for any given device? (door, car, etc.)
Secondly, I doubt anything new could be much more unsafe than a mechanical key system. It takes me about 5 minutes to get into an older car, and a professional burglar will probably be driving it away faster than it takes you to find the right key.
If you have an alarm, again it will take me approximately 5 minutes to disable (about 7 seconds to disable the horn), and the professional burglar will probably do it a lot faster (since he has done it so many times before, and also because he doesn't worry too much about electrical insulation, etc...)
If you are really worried about people using a programmable IR remote to steal your car, you should shift the area of worry. I'll be happy to line up 20 people in less than half-an-hour who could easily steal your car without such advanced equipment.
Here's what you really should be worried about: Is my keyless system expensive enough for someone to steal it? Will someone steal my alarm? Is my car-stereo visible outside, and expensive enough to be worth the trouble? Do I usually keep my wallet in the front seat? Is my car much more expensive than my neighbours or workmates? Etc...
In the end, it turns out insurance companies have done most of this thinking already, so you could just ask them.
Although I usually do not recommend this approach, consider obtaining security through obscurity.
:)
:) I'm just a happy customer.
Factory-installed keyless entry / remote starter systems all come from the same company, so if you get a Dodge Intrepid with an installed system, it will be identical to every other Dodge Intrepid's system. If you're afraid of someone scanning the remote's codes to gain access to your car, consider getting an aftermarket system. They're abundant in today's DYI market, and every automotive store carries a few different brands. Most of them are likely to have varying circuitry, varying frequencies, varying communication protocols, which make it that much harder and impractical for a would-be thief to get a scanner for (instead, get a scanner that caters to a wider "audience", if you will).
Naturally, a thief bent on stealing your car might get frustrated with not being able to crack your remote's code, perhaps to the point of using a jimmy and scratching the precious paint job, or even using a blunt object and simply breaking the glass. But at least your car will still be there
Personally, I use a remote system from ICDynamics. It gives me remote start, keyless entry and trunk release options, and that's good enough for me. Gets good range, too (over 300ft), so I can start my car up from the comfort of my home on days like today (a few degrees below freezing).
No, I do not work for them
Have EVDO, will travel.
Economically, you'll save a lot of money if you buy a car at this time of year (at least in the US). Car sales are much lower in the November/December timeframe, and prices are lower to try and drive up sales. Dealers also have the incentive to clear their lots of the previous model year for the new one.
Granted, at least in the Northern US, there are good reasons to not buy a car just before winter begins (salt on the roads (due to snow) rusting out a new frame being the main one)
Zapman
Yeah, I trust car salesmen. What about you?
"yeah this here vee-hickle has 129 bit RAS Cryptology you'll never have someone copy the code."
Either way, I bet I can pop your car doors open in a few minutes with a coat hanger, just imagine if I had a slim jims and the right tools like a tow truck driver!
Actually, I felt kinda dumb when I opened the manual and it described how the code hopping work and what the chances are that you would hit another keyless remote with the exact same signature.
I've seen the same description in other japanese autos manuals and remotes. (haven't played with the american domestics for a while though)
Not only is the remote keyless entry unsafe, but driving cars is inherently unsafe. You could be struck and killed. Stay off the roads. Hide in your basement. Wear tinfoil.
In the Star Trek evil Mirror Universe, virtuoso cellist Yo-Yo Ma is gangsta hiphop star DJ Yo Ma-Ma.
Your big fear in life should not be whether a techo-cracker-thief is going to intercept your private wireless communications with your vehicle.
If your car is stolen, you insurance company will take care of it. That's why you pay them so much money each month. You can just buy a new one. Consider that you are helping the economy and the thousands of assembly line workers in the car industry by buying cars often.
I have an ask slashdot question myself: do your inboxes not have any better "Ask Slashdot how to wipe my ass" questions than this?
Boy, that will get my post modded to troll for sure. (tee, hee hee)
The Remote Keyless Entry systems that automobile manufacturers install as standard equipment are there for convenience not for any added security over and above the key/ignition electromechanical interlocks and the standard alarm systems. Those impediments and deterrents to theft would be there regardless of the little remote dongle. (As several others have pointed out, a thief is going to get your car if he wants it bad enough.)
Frankly, my RKE dongle can be a pain in the ass. Depending on how it happens to twist in my pocket against the rest of the keychain, I can set off the panic button by turning just the right way.
--- "It annoyed me, so I fixed it." -- Tom's First Principle of Engineering
Look, as everybody else has said, if someone's going to steal your car, they're going to steal it. If they're going to break into it, they're going to break into it.
... But you don't see burglers breaking into houses via the garage door very often. It's just easier for them to crowbar through the back door or find a house with an open window.
.. but no matter what it will usually knock your rate down a little bit.
To get into the car, the thief has several options: Intercept, record and duplicate the keyless entry's signal; jimmy the door lock by yanking the lock wire or an interior switch (very hard on most new cars, but still possible on a great many); go after the keyed lock on the door itself with a pick/what have you; or break the window. Anyway, the point is that even if the thief has all the gear to get into your car via the keyless entry system, it's not going to be very effective to use versus any of the other methods. It's the same with robbing houses. Too many people leave the door between the garage and the house unlocked, and the garage doors operate on a (generally much less secure than car) wireless RF remote.
Anyway, what it boiled down to for me was that:
1) pushing a button to unlock the car is a hell of a lot quicker/easier than turning a key.
2) I am an idiot and forget where I parked a lot. I can make the car beep at me, and it helps.
3) Having a car alarm of some sort brings down my car insurance a lot... i guess mainly because of my age and the car i drive
So anyway, I'd say go for it, but make sure that the system has some sort of alarm feature such as a glass break mic or ignition cutoff that would classify it as a tiny bit more than a remote lock/unlock button, or it's not going to help you with your insurance.
~GoRK
Alot of the makers now use imobilizer chips in their keys. Without this embedded chip, the car wont start even if the key matches.
Great idea, until you want another key made. Mr Keyman at your local mall will happilly grind you a matching key without the chip thus making the 4 bucks you just spent useful for only opening the doors. Now the kicker -- you need to go to the dealer to get a real key and get reamed in the ass for at least 50 bucks.
If your getting a new car, try to get the dealer to throw in a extra key or two.
good luck.
The Remote Keyless Entry systems that automobile manufacturers install as standard equipment are there for convenience not for any added security over and above the key/ignition electromechanical interlocks and the standard alarm systems.
Of course. My question was in no way related to other security devices of the vehicle, solely if using such a device on a fixed frequency was going to INCREASE security risks (it seems like wireless always is). But I guess the discussion goes whichever way it wants, no big deal.
Is your browser retarded?
Realistically, you are not going to see any increased security risk with a keyless entry system.
There are probaly a couple of hundred different codes transmitted over frequencies that will vary from car to car. I used to drive a very common car (a Ford Explorer) and never ran into a situation where my keyless remote opened up doors on another car.
Contrast this to keys. There are usually only about 15 different key combinations per model for many cars. To combat the problem of theives getting their hands on the keys to steal the car, most manufacturers have added an RFID token to car keys. If you start to open a door with a copied key, the ignition is disabled.
I suppose if you knew all the different frequencies used by the keyless transmitters, you could sit in busy parking lots and gather the lock and unlock codes. You still would not have the ignition key or the RFID of the igniton key.
But you would need to have alot of money to build the equipment, a good background in electronics, and a smart brain in your head. (Traits generally not carried by car theives) Who would go to all of this trouble to steal a stereo?? Especially when you can gain phyiscal access to the car in less than 45 seconds w/o any technical stuff!
Also, as a side note, large apartment complexes are wonderlands for thieves of all sorts. A transient population with relatively high income equals alot of unreported petty crime. Those cheap sliding glass doors make entry into the house trivial.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
With that said, you might try doing the smart thing - don't buy a car someone would want to steal. Remember, a vehicle is simply a way to get you and your stuff from point A to point B - the minute the vehicle seems like something that gives you an "image", you are lost. That isn't to say that you need to get a clunker or something, just don't buy for image. Furthermore, the best advice I was ever given as a kid was "Buy a vehicle that will for for you, instead of one where you work for it". My vehicle is a small pickup - should I lose my job as a programmer, I still have a vehicle I could (in theory) load up some lawn equipment in and do some yard work for cash until I get back on my feet, or deliver newspapers, or phone books, or haul trash, or throw wire boxes in and install network cabling, etc - hard to do that with another vehicle, but maybe your needs or work are different.
One note: buying a used car may be a better thing - my small truck is pre-1997, which I think is the year they went to the ODB-II system. This is the "On Board Diagnostic" system used by the vehicle's engine computer - it also reports back things typically using a reader. Here is the clincher - on ODB-I systems, you can read the codes yourself, most of the time doing nothing more than stick a jumper in a plug and watching a blinking light - other times by keying the starter switch in a certain pattern and watching the engine light blink. ODB-II systems require you to buy a reader, and unless you buy an expensive reader, you can only read one model vehicle at a time. Still, you have to spend some bucks for the reader. Another thing is that on ODB-II systems when you go get smog checked, if they are using the system, they simply plug in, and tell you if you pass or not. My wife recently had this done on her 1997 Neon, and she passed, but if she hadn't, the paper wouldn't have said where the issue was, and we would have probably had to take it to a mechanic to get it fixed - at least when you can see what emmisions are out of whack, you have an idea where to start (ie, O2 sensor, etc). Don't even get me started on ODB-III (which seems near Orwellian in scope).
Another thing would be to see if they will eliminate these "mandatory" systems that simply add to the cost of a new car and take it off the price. Save a little money.
Finally, instead of an expensive system, add an "old school" system - a second switch. Wire it inline with the starter switch. If you want, you can wire up a high-current contact relay in the system instead, and hook that up to the relay in the starter, so that current has to pass through both set of contacts in order for the starter to turn over. Hide the switch somewhere in the automobile where a thief typically won't look - under the dash is bad, but in the glove box, a cubby hole, under the seat, in the trunk - all good spots. Add a well visible blinking red LED to complete the system. Total cost in parts will be a few bucks, but would probably frustrate the hell out of a potential thief (of course, it might tick him off so bad that he destroys the interior of the car or something, and it wouldn't stop him from stealing the radio or anything - which is a good reason to keep the factory radio).
Ok, you may not like any of my answers, but my point still stands - a vehicle is just something to get you and your stuff from point A to point B. Whatever you do, don't get into the "buy a new car every three years" cycle - this is just a waste. Pay off your car, keep up its maintenance, and the thing should last you a looong time - my truck currently 8 years old, and has 115,000 miles on it - the only thing I am needing replacement on is a new fan belt and new tires, which will probably happen sometime this winter. I replace the oil and filter on it every 3000 miles (btw, get a "permanent" air-filter as soon as you buy the car - it will cost more, but in the long run you will save money on air-filter replacements after about 8-10 oil changes), replace the shocks when needed, flush the tranny and radiator every now-and-then, change the spark plugs and wires as needed, belts, hoses, diff gear oil (nasty stuff) - every 60,000 miles get the timing belt/chain looked at and replaced if needed (timing chains can go longer in between checks - see your manual - but they still need to be looked after). If you treat everything right, there is no reason your car shouldn't last for 200,000 miles or more.
Myself, I plan on keeping my truck until the engine dies - then if the engine dies, I might look into getting a new engine (has to be cheaper than a brand new truck, and better than a used truck that I don't know how it was maintained)...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
One thing i'm looking into for the alarm on my truck... Someone tried to get my truck a couple months back, luckily the factory alarm had ignition kill, or they'd be gone, all I lost was the radio and had to get the window/ignition repaired.. but I didn't HEAR the alarm because i'm in a condo complex and too far from the truck.. CodeAlarm has one alarm for 350 which you can plug windows/doorlocks/ignition modules into it, ignition kill, AND the remote beeps when the alarm goes off.. this is a MAJOR plus if you're living in a place where you can't always hear your alarm.. also, when it goes off, you'll KNOW it's YOURS.. that's the one i'm going to pick up.
-matt
Would you mind telling me what the object was that you put on that page that makes IE crash? Just satisfying a curiosity.
Still it slows them down. It is impossible to prevent a car from beling stolen ever. The poitn of an alarm, The club and other devices is to jsut slwo them down until someone else notices (and scared them away) or they get tired (and give up).
NO! NO! Please don't mod me, I'm too young to die a troll. *click* Oh the pain, the pain...
Look at his page with Mozilla or any other browser, or just wget the html file. It's one of many single lines of HTML that will crash IE on any NT-based system. Microsoft refuses to fix it, of course, because it's not a security vulnerability (yet). It's a shame, it even works in IE 6 SP 1.
Still it slows them down
For the five seconds it takes them to snip the steering wheel with a bolt cutter.
Your wrong.... it will take him at least 2 minutes.. youc an onyl way it off or use a torch. I tried cutting those babies with a bolt cutter.. no luck.
NO! NO! Please don't mod me, I'm too young to die a troll. *click* Oh the pain, the pain...
I tried cutting those babies with a bolt cutter.. no luck.
If you read my post carefully, you'll note that the bolt cutters are to be used on the steering wheel, not the Club. Like I said, five seconds.
A carjacking in Toronto was foiled because the victim's car had a standard transmission - none of the thieves could drive it!
And a standard costs less, weighs less, gets better mileage, gets better performance and gives you more control over the vehicle.
Haven't you seen that informercial for the AutoLock, or whatever it's called -- the one that locks on your brake or clutch pedal? They show that a guy with a small hacksaw can cut through the steering wheel and remove the Club in about 3 seconds. Now, I'm not saying anyone should draw any conclusions of fact from an infomercial. But consider that steering wheels are necessarily soft, as is the dashboard and all other objects you are likely to come into contact with in an accident -- certainly more vulnerable than the metal of the club.
I was talking about the steering wheel. Have you ever tried in person? I have. On a 1988 Blazer and on a 1992 Maxima. It took me about 8 minutes with a hacksaw. I do not know where you got your 5 second BS, but the fact is that the steering wheel is made out of re-enforced steel. How the hell do you think you can cut it with 5 seconds?? If it was just plastic ok... but steel? You ever tried using on a hacksaw on a pad lock? Ok same thing but the metal is thicker.
NO! NO! Please don't mod me, I'm too young to die a troll. *click* Oh the pain, the pain...
Now call me old fashioned, but just because your car now comes with a remote, there's no reason to actually use it. Why not just continue using the key as normal? That way you're not exposed. Of course, that won't work with cars like the new Renault Laguna that are only accessible with the remote. But the vast majority (at least here in Europe) still have a key. Use it. The remote is a useless gimmick anyway.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
I've never tried it, but I've heard that a strong person wearing gloves can brace their foot on the steering wheel, pull on the club, and break it at it's weakest point: one of the detents that the lock latches into.
At those points, it's probably about half the diameter of the rest of the club.
Actually, the real point of all these devices is to get the thief to move on to an easier car to steal, like, say, the one next to yours!
Steering wheels on all modern cars are soft to reduce chest injuries during accidents. Also I saw a neat little toy that a repo man had made, it consisted of two clamps that attached to either side of the club and a screw, he rotated the large arm on the screw twice and the club shattered in half, took about 10 seconds. I have also seen live demonstrations where a car thief would show a news reporter how quickly they could hack through the steering wheel, average time: 15 seconds. The fact is, stealing a car is becoming much harder because many cars now come with a chip in the key that interacts with the electronic ignition system so the car won't start even if they pop the lock. Look for carjackings to rise. Also more serious crooks now get a tow truck and tow the stolen car to the chop shop, no one even looks twice at a tow truck towing a car with an alarm going off.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
I think I know you in person... Is your first name Alex?
NO! NO! Please don't mod me, I'm too young to die a troll. *click* Oh the pain, the pain...
Nope
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
About the apartment vs. house thing - I understand completely.
I live in a complex and my car was broken into - I came outside to find the driver side door not completely closed and the trunk not completely closed.. no evidence of slim-jimming (dust on the weatherstripping was undisturbed and the strip wasn't streched, no scratches on the glass) - only the driver side door was unlocked so it's unlikely that power locks were used to get in (unless they bothered to lock the passenger door before they left). The funny thing is that they took 2 power inverters and a wireless keyboard, but they left behind the keyboard RECIEVER and the IN-CAR COMPUTER SYSTEM (worth more than everything else put together).
After thinking about it, I realized just how un-suspicious the whole break-in would have looked, due to the fact that it's an apartment complex. People come and go all night, and to see somebody getting stuff out of a car looks completely normal.
I need an alarm.
You can run but you can't hide, except, apparently, along the Afghan-Pakistani border.
No kidding. Securing wireless LANs is for pussies, too.
What is the best way to go about putting together an alarm system that's actually worth installing? I have a little sports car (240SX) that isn't worth much now but after various mods it'll be worth stealing. I had an IROC stolen from me in SF (go figure) with no theft coverage, good bye car. (IROCs are VERY frequently stolen there, wish I'd known that sooner.) I have hood locks on the car, so that makes it slightly more annoying to get into parts of it (no one is likely to steal my battery) and I'm contemplating a heavy steel plate to stop battery punches. What else can I do (besides the "hidden" kill switch, what an annoyance.)
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I don't know about any other model, but my '98 (post OBD-II) prelude is quite happy to flash out diagnostic codes when the "Service Check Connector" is jumpered properly. As always, RTFM
fqrley