Slashdot Mirror
Jobs for Students - Where Are They?
jtpalinmajere asks: "The past few years students like myself have found themselves in an ominously precarious situation. This is to say that the availability for jobs in the computer industry that are suited well for fresh meat graduates are dwindling at an alarming rate. Personally, I graduate this coming Spring and have been job searching for the past semester with little if any success at finding a prospective future employer. The placement office at my university hasn't been too helpful for many students in the CS department. The only companies that I have come in contact with that might consider fresh graduates are Microsoft and government agencies such as the FBI. If I can actually compete with the 76% foreign immigrant population of Microsoft then I might see that as a fairly good start, though the odds don't seem to roll in my favor. As far as the government is concerned, I'm simply not old enough for any job that gets paid more than minimum wage and has actual job security. Most of my job searching has been conducted through services like Dice and Monster. 99% of the jobs listed in these services require 2 - X many years of previous experience using Y software with a current Z security clearance level. I've even found one company that wants 10 years experience specifically with .NET -- go figure! I'm not looking for the dream job that everyone hopes to one day attain. I'm looking for a job that will simply get me into the industry with a meager salary large enough to sustain life. How many other students find themselves in my position? What are some opinions, particularly from our non-students, for soon to be graduates like myself?"
Did you do any internships while in college or coop? One of the most helpful job resources I found are my "ex-coworkers" and "friends of friends". If they like you and know you can perform good, people will keep an extra eye out for leads and/or possible openings.
Network...
Don't burn bridges...
Wear clean underwear...
?...
Profit
-- ladies and gentlemen we are floating in space!
That depends. Can you say "Do you want fries with that?"
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
The only companies that I have come in contact with that might consider fresh graduates are Microsoft and government agencies such as the FBI. If I can actually compete with the 76% foreign immigrant population of Microsoft then I might see that as a fairly good start, though the odds don't seem to roll in my favor.
I think you will find that the vast majority of non-US citizens at Microsoft, or any other organization that hire H1Bs for that matter, aren't fresh graduates, but were already experienced software developers before the H1B is granted. It would be very difficult under the terms of H1B to hire fresh graduates, as one of the conditions is that the holder must have skills that are not in ready supply in the US.
Therefore, these people are entirely irrelevant; you wouldn't be competing with them for an entry level job anyway.
50% of jobs out there arn't advertised.
Go to the employers directly, send in your resume. It shows initiative if you call a company and ask to speek to HR or the hirer, depending on the size of the company.
I work for a small company (im not out of uni yet) and have heard that small companies are good for jobs, but don't advertise much. I hear this stuff through the "channel". Network some Wetware and hunt down a job.
Being a (nearly-finished) student, I can vouch for the troubles that can be had trying to find a job in the industry at the moment. I was lucky enough to study a course (Multimedia) that has a year of work placement between 2nd and 3rd year. Our uni boasted a "100% placement rate" for these before my year (2001). Obviously things went downhill from there. I was lucky enough to secure a place (it wasn't my first choice) and hang on through the tough times. I kept working through final year and now have a full time job to go. I've also had 2 years experience at the same time (:
All I can suggest is that you seek out any opportunity to work while you study - the workload is heavier, but your chances of being employed at the end are far greater.
Ladies, form queue here -->
Even if an employer wants 2 years of experience, go for it if you feel qualified. I only had about 1 year of experience, all coop. I applied for a job that wanted 3-5 years experience, and I got it. Granted, I am getting paid a little less than the advertised rate, but it's a job.
.NET when looking around last spring. That's nonsense, and most people know it. Why companies do this, I don't know. Don't let it discourage you. If you really feel you are qualified, sell yourself anyway. Talk about why you are good for the job despite not having the desired experience. You have nothing to lose.
I remember seeing 5+ years in Java Enterprise Edition and 2+ years with
As far as the government is concerned, I'm simply not old enough for any job that gets paid more than minimum wage and has actual job security.
That's about right. My grandpa needed to be 18 and just graduated from high school to get a good job that could support a family. My father needed to have a 4 year degree for the same thing. I needed a degree and a few years of experience before I found a decent job.
At this rate our grandchildren are going to have to be retired before they can get a decent job.
This is America, damnit. Speak Spanish!
Get a temp job that starts to pay the bills. Let the firm know that you would prefer tech-area jobs. Temp work is the great back door through which the inept Human Resource director is circumvented.
If you like the place, and they like you, you will eventually get an offer for a 'real' job. Meanwhile, you will get to see all the different types of jobs there are: specifically, which places you really don't want to work.
While you're slumming in the mail room, you should contribute to some open source projects at home. Temp jobs almost never make you sign oppressive IP contracts. It will keep your skills up, and you will earn a reputation with your peers. Non-paid work is _always_ impressive on your resume. If a shop says "Hey, why are you doing OSS stuff?" you can say it was to keep your skills sharp while you found a 'real' job.
But don't write off the 'real' world. There's a far bigger, and hidden, market for people who know how to program. I started in environmental consulting, and one of our best consultants was a database guru. I recently automated table generation in a large report. Saved us a week of formatting time. Programmer is not in my job description. These types of jobs generally have a specific problem domain, which gives you a leg up when you want to move to a 'real' tech shop.
My father is a blogger.
http://thebigchoice.com
Advice on getting a job and graduate recruiters actively seeking fresh graduates.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
I was in the exact same situation -- job hunting for months before graduation, with no results. Admittedly, I was a B- student, so I can see why I wasn't the top of every list, but to not appear on *any* list?
Anyway, my success was in contracting. Talk to IT recruiters about filling small roles and assisting other contractors, that sort of thing. Just to get your name out there, and to get some actual after-school-experience. I was jobless for 3 months after graduation, then I did contract teaching (computer repair, network design, etc) for 4 months, then was hired full-time at the company where I'd been contracting most often.
YMMV of course. Good luck!
Make sure every one you know, from your aunt who works in health care to your drugie high school friend knows you are looking for a job, and has a copy of your resume.
Contact all your old employers, make sure they know also, see if they have any openings, or know of any, in the industry, send them an updated copy, and get letters of recomendations from all of them, even if it was a McJob.
Have samples of work to show prospective employers.
apply to a minimmum of 5 jobs a day!
Never use the auto submit for a job posted on a job board unless no other contact info is given.
Include a Cover letter with Every Submition.
use words in your cover letter that are used in the job description.
and last show up to the interview DRUNK!
--meh--
I know most CS students see it as "below" them, but most universities have a thriving IT department. Even getting a job at the help desk can be a *huge* boost in your career... a couple years of that, and you've suddenly got 2+ years of experience in the field. You don't have to stay, but it's a good place to start.
The real problem is waiting until you get out of college. IT departments in colleges are much more willing to hire students, because they can count more on the person actually sticking around if he's got two or three years of school left.
Lie.
.NET and 50 years of Java.
When you submit a resume to HR, talk about your 25 years of experience with
Just remember to bring a real resume to the interview.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
When they ask for "years of experience", they just want to avoid the wannabes who just popped out of 6 months community college, and know only what was taught on the blackboard.
if you take this "requirement" for what it *really* is, it shouldn't bug you!
... unless you just got out of a community college 2-month speed-learning program? ;-)
I always remember people saying "Oh you'll have no problem getting a job." "Oh you'll be rich" since I was an electrical engineering major. People never said that to Biologists and Mechanical engineers. Maybe now we in the tech industry just have to go through the process of finding a job, rather than a job finding us. Sure would have been nice if I had graduated 3 years ago, instead of 1, though. :) .I'm still working an internship from back-in-the-day and making pennies.
It all comes down to finding people you like, and that like you. I should take my own advice though..
Why stick up for big business?
Try like hell to get on somewhere to get "real world" experience. It makes all the difference when looking for a job.
It also helps to move to an area where jobs are plentiful. For example when I graduated I too couldn't find a job worth anything in Oklahoma. So I moved to Dallas. After working there and getting experience the jobs I wasn't qualified for in my home town area were now begging for experienced developers.
I also did lots of free work (software development related) in my spare time. You can always find non-profit organizations that need help and will give you a real project without the time constraints usually associated with a real job. This is experience and you'd be doing something good for your community (I still volunteer). Just make sure not to flake out b/c non-profit's get a lot of people who want to help but don't want to put forth the effort needed.
For more than 20 years, as a hobby, I've been helping friends re-write their resumes. I've noticed that one factor that affects the hiring of excellent students is that their resumes usually don't communicate clearly.
People are told that resumes should be only one page. That's not true. When you write any advertisement, you should write as much as you have to say. When you finish telling the entire story, stop writing. This advice is from the famous ad man David Ogilvy, who wrote Confessions of an Advertising Man , an excellent book that is, as you would guess, easy to read. Any library should have it.
Here are PDF examples of the before and after: Original student resume, with beginning corrections. Draft of improved resume, with formatting quirkiness caused by Microsoft Word. (My friend the student did the re-writing, using my suggestions as a guide. The improved version is current as of yesterday.)
It took maybe 10 hours to develop the information. I spent the time because I am a friend. It is easy to understand that a prospective employer would not spend 10 hours getting to know every person who sends a resume.
Notice that the original resume looks like the resume of thousands of recent journalism graduates. The improved resume is an advertisement that gives a complete picture of the person being advertised. The original expects the reader to do the work. The improved version gives as much as possible and asks as little as possible from the reader.
Like the friend in the example, many students have a lot of relevant experiences.
The book Executive Jobs Unlimited is old, but includes a lot of information that is relevant to anyone's effort to write a job-getting advertisement. Most libraries have this book.
A lot of the problems in getting a job are caused by the inexperience and ignorance of the employers. Employers are often no better than applicants at communicating. They often ask for qualities expressed by buzzwords. Often what an employer really wants is very different from what is communicated. Imagine the confusion when both the applicant and the prospective employer communicate poorly.
The most difficult kind of writing is writing an advertisement. The most difficult kind of advertisement to write is an advertisement for a person. The most difficult person about whom to write is yourself. Get help if you can. Write biographies of yourself, so that you will have information to use in the job-getting advertisement. Most people have difficulty believing they are as good as they really are, I've found.
If you are interested, it is okay to mirror the resumes, but the mirror must include a link to this original Slashdot comment.
Does MS really get 76% of their workforce from outside the U.S.? If true, then no wonder they don't mind trampling our rights and trying to enslave the population. They employees at MS may not have ever even read the Constitution or Bill of Rights.
Line up for your chip implants.
BC
...Honestly those of us who are already out here, and already have jobs(or have lost jobs due the current market)...don't need any fresh young talent to arrive and threaten out job security or ability to get/change jobs...I hear Biotech needs help...maybe there is time to redirect your major....
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
I go to a university that requires me to have 4 co-ops before I graduate. A Co-op is a paid internship in which I work for 10 weeks, 40 hours a week in my field of study. Since I am a CS major I must get a job writing code, developing software, etc. or it wont count towards graduation. It is incredibly difficult to find such a job. I plan to spend the break I have right know contacting as many companies as possible so that I will be sure to get a co-op in the spring. I really need the money.
If you would like to hire a computer science major to work for you check my resume.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
I hate to tell you this; but it is my observation that you may be looking at temping - A LOT - and holding down an additional part time job just to get situated as a recent graduate. I feel this goes for all fields. Unless you can hold yourself to the minimums (used ride, efficiency apartment, outlet store clothes) until you establish yourself; you may be out of luck.
I think one thing going against you is a lot of adults, regardless of their field, are going back to get their first or even second degree and very likely their Masters' because they are either currently unemployed or very worried about the security of their current job. I know that despite my experience I am ready to start night classes and finish my degree; and I'm far closer to 30 than you are.
That's even with a $28 an hour job - specifically because it is a consultant gig and I won't be making $60 thousand this year or next unless I can roll out of this position and right into the next one... and I'm scared that that won't happen. Yeah, scared. You get a bunch of hard working people afraid they aren't going to make it and they start exercising a lot of options to make themselves viable in a tough market.
On the other hand; there have to be a considerable number of IT jobs that aren't just support or "network engineering/administration" and the like. I know a kid that just finished college with his Comp. Sci. major but he focused on chip design and already has a cushy; if not extremely high paying right off the bat job in a clean room. At least his foot is in the door.
Don't count yourself out yet. Check with your [city/county government] employment service and don't forget your college likely has resources and internship provisions for you. My current contract is in a place I didn't think would be likely to have IT employment opportunities.
Last, forget the "TS SCI/Poly required" jobs, unless you go somewhere that indicates on the announcement they will hire you then clear you or clear you before you are officially hired like the State Department - they still need about 100 IT Management Specialists I think, and thanks to my stupidity a few years ago I won't be one of them right now (nothing criminal; just shouldn't have held a grudge after I left [non-classified] civilian government service). The 'you must have current active clearance' jobs are often most suited for military folks that will very likely never get out of a classified work environment - not that they would want to with some of the salaries they will get paid. Then again, maybe four or eight years in the service (with a college degree I don't think Officer School would be that difficult for you to get into) would do you some good and at least guarantee you a roof and meals; and maybe even help pay off your college bills. There's private consulting, government contracting, then defense contracting - and with this Homeland Security business they want everyone to have some clearance or other - odd that the more people cleared to access information the more likely it is that information will not remain secret, but that is another topic for another day.
Take what you want from this comment and leave the rest; but I wish you the best of luck. Keep your chin up and don't take it too hard that there are probably 4 or 5 thousand former Worldcom, Global Crossing and other IT/telecom employees vying for that same job. Sometimes youth works for you not against you.
I think with the interesting people, their lives can't possibly be wrapped up into a nice little package.
I guess I'm lucky to be living somewhere where you don't need much money, but I could *easily* live off of a full-time minimum wage job.
As it stands, I'm working several very part-time jobs, and covering living expenses pretty easily - had to take out a loan for tuition, but that's different.
I'm currently working about 10 hours a week at the help desk for my school's computer centre, getting paid to sing in a church choir, tuning a harpsichord for another university, and taking various freelance performing gigs where I can.
Of course, living where I am, I don't need (or want) a car, my living expenses total about $500 Canadian) and I'm generally pretty low-maintenance.
I have several friends with rather severe money problems - huge debts, damaged credit, etc... - most of whom make about 10 times what I do in a year. There's a point where you just have to look at how little you can live off of - do you really *need* that Xbox? Can you put off upgrading for another year? etc...
I pity those people forced to live in more expensive places. Almost any city in the States - and even more places like London - just paying rent on a small apartment can easily cost several times my total living expenses... Makes you wonder if it's really worth the trouble of living there.
Move back in with your parents... hope they still have a job so they can pay your bills... if you have any. The economy sucks right now... I've been having the same trouble you have... except I blew off college... I took two semesters and was like "this is worthless bullshit", so I ended up working.
I recently lost my job because I would not let my employer screw me (not literly, financially)... So now.. I atleast have the chance to have a love life... I only have car payments, cell phone bills, and other expenses that my parents are kind enough to pay for me.
Tip: Don't worry about it... You will find a job, In the mean time, focus on your love life.
1. Start working on business apps now. Your network battleship independent project may not impress anyone, but a substantial contribution to an open source workflow system might. Re-engineer some club website in J2EE or .NET just to see how it works. Try to get an understanding for the kinds of problems real applications solve.
2. Lots of companies will take a fresh college grad if it's the right kind of person -- they just don't necessarily advertise that on Monster (since they'd be neck-deep in unqualified resumes). Instead, they go to career fairs at selective universities. Try going to one of those or at least getting a list of attending companies. Then submit your resume directly with a cover letter that explains how you're ready to be relevant right away. (see #1)
My company has taken to only extending offers to people who have interned with us, provided that the work done was good work... Unfortunately, to intern, you have to have another year (or semester) of school to go...
Honestly, the people we have hired this way have worked out really well compared to most of the "cold hiring" - both parties pretty much know what to expect going in to it.
The moral? Make sure you intern somewhere you would like to work the year before you graduate!
(of course, I wasn't a college-hire here, came in during boomtimes...)
-- John
I hate to say it, but you should have dropped out and started working while the market was overly hot and they would pay good money for a programmer with demonstrable skill -- degree or no.
That's what I did, and four years later I have enough experience to give me some small kind of security. But then, I also have no degree, so I get filtered by HR that way. Fortunately, I've made enough contacts with people who are willing to vouch for me.
Of course, I'm kicking myself now, as I'm trying to go back to school. But, at least the university is always more than willing to take my tuition check, esp. in the slow market.
Don't blame me, I get all my opinions from my Ouija board.
You've still got time to take the GRE. You already live like a student. You are (likely) very familiar with your university's department, and your professors still know you well.
Start investigating graduate programs.
Worst case scenario: you take out some loans and hustle for part-time work. Best case scenario: they get you grant money or a teaching post, and you get your degree while they pay you.
It's crappy out here. You can always drop out of grad school when things start looking up.
I've even found one company that wants 10 years experience specifically with .NET -- go figure!
It's listings like this that should show you much you need to ignore the job requirements and just apply for everything you think you could do well and would enjoy doing. A lot of times the company will take you on if you can ramp up quickly and they'll save money by getting somebody less experienced.
play .now you know how all those factory workers felt. and why dont you tellyourself what geeks
awlays tell those workers? "well you just nbeed to learn more and work harder"
Try doing something else for a while. Can you write or edit? Do you have decent communication skills? Nonprofits, particularly smaller ones, are always looking for smart, well-rounded people because you wind up doing much more than your job description dictates.
This is not a bad thing: more than one person has backed into the computer industry by taking on tech responsibilities at a small non-IT company. After a year or two you have some decent experience, you'll be able to show that you can solve problems creatively (read: cheaply) and you might have a greater appreciation for the user's point of view than if you'd gone directly into application development from college.
Chris
M-x auto-bs-mode
One thing I took in college was a business administration minor. It was very boring, yet if I didn't have my current job, I could fall back on that. Maybe become a certified public accountant or something. Then use my spare time to code some GPL projects to keep from getting rusty. So if you can't get a job in the computer science field, get some job, and just hobby in the computer science field until things get better.
OTOH, you can always go back to the academic world as well.
I'm sure you won't listen, but computing is largely ruined in the US -- basically, Microsoft owns it and it will be doing everything possible to reduce employment and benefit levels, not increase them. Unless you're planning to leave the country after you graduate, I'd strongly suggest changing your major to something more profitable in the long term like biotechnology or furnace repair.
Dont be daunted by the often illogical 'experience' requirements. Most of the time, these are taken from boilerplate templates and guidelines that HR departments get or cook up themselves. A job posteing seldom has what the original author intended after it gets through HR people! Having been on the other side of this fence before, trying to hire people (and wasting my time interviewing way too many people who were completely unsuitable before I found some folks who were), I have to say that the job description folks post is every bit as sensitive in triggering interest on the part of applicants as their resumes are in triggering interest in employers. On the same subject, most management have, probably from their super-leet business schools, some strange guidelines in their heads of 'rules of thumb' that a guy of some degree of seniority should have foo years aof experience with such and such buzzwords. Your mention of one that asked for 10 yrs experience with m$'s .net stuff is a prime example. My advice: spend a few minutes to figure out what the employer _really_ wants, and send
him a resume anyway. Make sure you point out to him what you can do and make mention of projects youve worked on (if any) that give a hint that you are good at working on projects. Dont just shy away because you dont have a certain number of years experience. Often the actual interviewing or
even screening of resumes is done by people who _do_ know what they're talking about, in any well run organization at least. Good managers know to use their specialists to do their job.
... I managed to do it. No degree, but experience. I'm 21 and make decent bank and work in the middle of San Francisco for a very, very large employer. I can't stress how very important it is, especially in this market, to have experience. You said it yourself, after all. They want experience. Get a job at your computer lab. Get a job with a local PC repair company. Have SOMETHING under your belt that at least in some way reflects your knowledge 1) of your field and 2) knowledge of WORK.
So what is my answer to your inability to get a job? I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but get a job! Get experience! The average time for a college grad to find a job, when they have experience, is 4-6 months. It is an uphill battle, and I wish you luck.
True story...
Straight out of school I looked for jobs in the gaming industry. My first interview I was asked "What have you done that nobody else has ever done." I answered "Get my pocket picked by a hooker while she was blowing me behind a Pizza Hut dumpster." I was offered a job that afternoon.
Funny thing is, guys probably get their pockets picked by hookers all the time.
At this college, when MS collects people for
interviews, they only ask the people with Indian
last names. Anybody else is never considered.
It doesn't matter if you have a green card or not.
Guess if you have a green card, you'll get weeded out.
That would explain the number of incompetents that find
their way up there too.
Don't be afraid to take a job that you feel is "beneath you" at graduation if nothing better comes along. Believe me, it looks a lot better on your resume to see that you worked for $8/hr in some minor IT job than to see that you spent a year and a half sitting on your ass because there were no decent jobs out there.
I can think of two advantages that you have over the rest of the world.
1) You are young, can work hard and risk a great deal without worrying about the wife and kids.
2) You know how to live on the cheap.
Those two things make this an ideal time to start a business. And I'm not even thinking an IT business necessarily. The reason you got trained up in IT is because businesses need IT skills. Heck, no business can run without them and they are *the* reason why US productivity has done so well compared to the rest of the world the last two years. You can use those skills to run your own business too. I work in IT now, but when I started out I opened a photo lab. These were the days before a one hour lab in every supermarket, and people still went to stores that specialized in processing film. I wrote all the systems for the lab and that gave us an edge over the competition. Now, that said, we failed anyway because of the switch from large scale processing to automated processing in the mini-labs, but I don't regret it for a moment.
So, use those creative skills you have been showing in code to invent your own career. Prepare for long hours and an adventure to match.
I'm simply not old enough for any job that gets paid more than minimum wage and has actual job security. ... I'm looking for a job that will simply get me into the industry with a meager salary large enough to sustain life.
Aim low and you'll always reach your goals, eh?
I'm a second year CS major and I see questions like this all the time and it makes me wonder if I should change my major. What do those of you who recently graduated with a CS degree reccommend?
Well today is my second day at my new job and I'll tell you my experiences. All throughout school I worked at a local networking company gaining experience and certification. I attended a community college then transfered to a state university. My grades are ok, nothing to write home about. I graduated this spring and my previous employeer didn't have a full time spot for me, tough luck. I spent the months of June through late October in searching for work. I used the local paper, monster, net temps (found some part time work for beer mone) there), various websites from NY State dept. of labor, friends, former co-workers, and local career fairs. I don't know what the poster is talking about government jobs. THe only ones I found at the FBI wanted experience or big certifications like the CCIE from cisco. Not only that but you have to pass physical requirements as well. I applied there as well and the local office had gone through my app, but I wasn't going to hold my breath for 6 month process. New York state itself is so big and slow that application process takes a long time too. My current job I landed after I visited their booth at a government technology fair in albany. I gave them my resume and talked for a little bit. I got a call a month later about a different position and they wanted an interview. What's funny is that I went for 3 months without an interview and then I got 3 interviews in one week!
:)
So, I had 4 years of part time experience (technical and the more important non technical skills) with a college degree and it still took 5 months to land a job. This one is pretty sweet. I work with a few other laid back people and a laid back boss. Plus I have a nice 17" flat screen with a P4
I hope that helps. I felt compelled to write something since I had gone through the exact same thing the poster will go through. It wasn't that bad having the whole summer to mysefl though. Good luck!
Ben
(oh, don't beat yourself up over a "dream job." They don't exist! A dream job is getting paid for vacation. There might be the most ideal job, but you can't be that selective right out of college.)
imho...
After you graduate, I'd suggest working at least 8 hours a day looking for a job. It's hard work, but so is a job. There are a lot of books and websites with job-hunting tips. The newspaper and job sites are the very beginning. You need to meet people and to let them know you need a job without sounding desparate.
Some ways to meet people: mentor, teach, volunteer, temp, go to local user groups. Remember, you just got a degree in a field that most people are afraid of and have little experience with. If you had an English degree, it would be hard to teach or help people, since everyone took English in school.
And don't focus on just tech companies. Let's say you are interested in science and computers. Maybe you know someone who knows someone who works for a biotech company. Tell them you want some practical experience writing a database program (in Access or something) and ask them if they could use such a program for free. Work there for a few weeks (don't work at home). Now all of a sudden you know a bunch of scientists who think you are a computer genius (because they have no idea that Access is easy). Maybe they'll hire you, or mention you to their colleagues who actually are looking to hire someone.
And finally, think of it this way: if half of the graduates this year can't find a job, it means that you only have to be better than 50% of the people in your school. You're better than 50% of the people there, right?
The placement office at my university hasn't been too helpful for many students in the CS department.
Don't expect them to do much work for you. Actually, don't expect anyone to do work for you. Do it yourself.
As far as the government is concerned, I'm simply not old enough for any job that gets paid more than minimum wage and has actual job security.
That's false. My first job was with the government, and while I wasn't making a killing, I made good enough money to have an [ugly] apartment and a [cheap] new car. And it wasn't with a defense-related department, so there were no security clearances I needed to have or anything.
Most of my job searching has been conducted through services like Dice and Monster.
I think those sites are a good starting point, but you should spend only a small fraction of your time on them. The rest of the time should out of the house, walking the beat as it were.
Its just a few sheets of paper. Costs a few cents to make a copy on a printer. Less then $10 to print 100 pages. So print off a ton of resumes, make a few custom cover sheets, and hand them out everywhere. Its only your time. You might not have a good chance of getting a job at Bobs Ubercoding Palace, but you have no chance if they don't have your resume.
Deliver your resume to the places you want to work first. Then deliver your resume to the places you don't mind working at. Then at everywhere else.
If you have do get an interview, and don't get a job, ask what skills you are lacking. Then try to fix that. Also, donate some time to a good opensource project. Its resume padding. Dunno if it helps, but it can't hurt.
(Btw, by 'everywhere else', I have handed out over 60 resumes so far, and will probably be to 100 resumes in my job hunt when I'm done.)
"The problem is if you have been living the life style of someone who makes $60K..."
Maybe you should stop living beyond your means then?
Sell the house and buy a cheaper one.
Car payments got you down? Sell it, buy a cheaper one. You can get a good used car for $3000 or less. My '93 Dodge Spirit is worth less than $2000 now. It's old, it's high mileage, BUT IT RUNS and that's all that matters.
All this post amounts to is, "WAAH-WAAH! THE MARKET CORRECTED ITSELF AND I CAN'T KEEP UP MY OLD LIFESTYLE!"
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Also, in many of these cases, even if the experience they ask for IS possible, they won't get any responses with that kind of experience. So just try applying anyway.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
VAXaholic -- I recognize that nick from about 10 years ago. It's a unique enough nick that I don't feel silly asking: What school did you go to?
--JoeProgram Intellivision!
You might be able to try (as a recent college grad) for an internship. While internships sound like they should only be for students returning to school, it's becoming increasingly common to work as an intern even after graduation. If you do a good job, then you'll get hired full-time.
This is my situation. I was not totally sure when I applied for my current job whether or not I wanted to go to grad school immediately full-time or to get a job and start doing part-time grad school. The company I applied to was thinking about hiring me permanently, but in the end decided to hire me for the summer, with the possibility of continuing on.
It's November and I'm still here. I'm still officially on "Intern" status, but I no longer have an end date and my boss and his boss (up to the VP of Research) want to get my status upgraded ASAP. (Unfortunately, hiring is semi-frozen at the company). But having a semi-permanent internship with low pay is better than no job at all, and I have my foot in the door and a head start on my dream job once the economy picks up a bit and hiring becomes easier.
Note: I'm making far more than minimum wage, but still far less than the going salary for an EE.
And as the original poster said, even in jobs where "programming" might not be in the job description anywhere, even a bit of programming experience can be a BIG benefit. (I find myself whipping up a small Perl script every week or two.)
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Moving into the parents' house is a bit of an inconvenience love-life-wise. (Read: No privacy)
On the other hand, it's much more socially acceptable in the current economy to be living with your parents than it usually is. I'd say 50% or more of my graduating class are living with their parents - I'm considered lucky that I have a job.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
If all else fails there's always grad school. A Master's degree is useful and educational. Or you can tool around at home on some of you rown ideas/open source/certification projects.
IME this is bad advice: carpet bombing resumes isn't the answer. If you don't customize your resume to the folks you're giving them to, you might as well spam them. On the few occassions I was asked to sort through resumes my first filter for resumes was, "Is there any evidence they're responding to our ad?" If not, adios. If you're even not going to take the time to look for a job thoroughly, why would I want to hire you and trust you with some part of my business?
However, contributing to an open source project is a great idea. When people ask about your code, just send them to the ViewCVS repository and some choice links to the mailing list archive. It helps to give them a 30,000 foot view of the codebase plus some pointers to code you think would be relevant to the job you'd be doing there.
Chris
M-x auto-bs-mode
>Try to mix something biotechnology with your regular CS.
Yea, come up with a biological agent that sends H1-B's back to India (alive or dead) and all of a sudden computer guys will start getting jobs again.
Not that I'm bitter or anything.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
The proportion of lies in H1B resumes and the non H1B resumes are going to be the same. Both the parties do that to varying degrees. But for the H1B non-immigrant it would be much more riskier as the resumes and the candidate backgrounds are checked prior to issuing of visa.
Your attitude comes from misunderstanding or xenophobia.
Tat Tvam Asi
I finished my honours degree in CS at a major Australian university last week.
.AU; 4 years instead of 3, with a thesis taking up half of the extra year), about 3-4 people have jobs for next year. Maybe 5. Some of these aren't looking (they're going on to do higher degrees), but a lot are.
Out of the ~ 30 people doing honours (which is an extra year in
The big companies are hiring - IBM isn't taking anyone for IT in their graduate program, PwC isn't either, Accenture took about 5-10 people Australia-wide who are graduating now to start work in November 2003 - a year after graduation.
The small companies aren't hiring either - several of them had first level interviews, and then didn't do anything else because they decided not to take graduates.
I (and others) have had several genuine offers from people who would be happy to hire me except for current hiring freezes.
Personally, I have a temporary 4-6 month job starting in a few weeks, and I'm hoping that the job market will have improved by then.
Its not getting people interested in hiring me - I have a good academic record, experience on couple of OSS projects (although that seems to count for less here than the US, I think), an internship with a very large software company (who also currently has a hiring freeze), and so on. The problem is getting people interested who have the ability to actually hire anyone.
I see a lot of ads for jobs that employers don't seem to be able to fill. Usually, they have several specific requirements like "1 year experience with Swing 1.29", or "Java - must have 2 years experience with IBM VisualAge". Any decent C++ programmer could teach himself Java/Swing in a couple weeks, and learning a new IDE wouldn't be much of a challenge either.
I'd worked for a year in Java, and asked a recruiter if I should download J2EE and teach myself to use it. She said not to bother, because companies want to see professional experience.
The parent is right on the money, except that I think the stat is much greater than 50% in my area (East Anglia, UK).
There are basically four ways to go about getting a job:
In my experience, these are listed in increasing order of likelihood of success, and the first two options are way behind the other two.
My other advice would be to consider aiming for a small company first, particularly if you're good. You're much more likely to have someone technical read your resume and any covering letter you send, rather than to be filtered out by some buzzword-craving DB. If you write a good resume -- most people really don't, and I've posted advice on this subject around here before -- then so much the better.
You probably won't get a top notch salary at a small company, but you'll get a decent average for someone with your experience over the first year or two at most of them, and you'll get a much more personal experience from those you work for and with, which is good for developing your early career. Again, this is particularly useful if you really are good, either technically or in your attitude, as this is far more likely to be noticed in a smaller, more personal environment.
After a couple of years in the business, you'll have had chance to establish a solid track record with a company, and to see which skills are really useful and not just hype. If you choose to move on from there, you'll be much better placed than you are right now.
Final tip: do consider staying on and getting more qualified while the market is tough. NB: I'm mostly talking about serious qualifications, not random certificates from marketing departments, though the latter rarely hurt. I got a long way based not only on a good maths degree, but also on the one year postgrad diploma in CS I took to go with it. Aside from being a darned useful course, it distinguished me from other random graduates in my early career. If you can get some sort of funding or sponsorship to do such a course, so much the better, obviously. It gives you a way to ride out the current wave of poor IT recruitment, and good experience to boot.
If you're looking to do software development as a serious career, supporting skills in things like maths or management do no harm at all. If you're after sysadmin type work, you could do worse than having some electrical or communications engineering skills as well (and those random marketroid-driven certificates are probably worth something, at least in some cases). Either way, the extra edge does no harm.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I appreciate the link, but I think their example CV is horrible. (Speaking as someone whose mother is a professional careers advisor at a UK university, and so has had good CV writing drilled into him since forever...)
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I don't like to criticise, but I'd hesitate to recommend your rewritten resume as an example. Since CV writing is quite a personal thing, I'll just list my reservations below with the most serious first, and let anyone else look at both and decide for themselves whether they agree.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
It's only going to get worse, folks.
I graduated last year. The thing is, when I started my degree only 1 out of every 12 person who applied would be accepted. You had to *WORK*, you had to *COMPETE*, and the degree meant something.
The year after I graduated/left they increased their size eight times. So now in four/five years there's going to be EIGHT TIMES as many students looking for jobs.
I suspect my local Uni isn't the only in the entire world. People still think that the Tech industry is booming so they go for a degree. IT'S NOT.
It's getting to be a broken record of recent graduates asking "Waitaminute, where's my job?"
My best friend from Uni graduated fairly high, was one of the best low-level people I've ever met. After 8 months of trying to find a job he finally decided to join the army. BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING OUT THERE.
The tech industry is no longer calmoring to hand you a fat paycheque - get out now if you still can.
...Also, I didn't know Buggalo could fly.
As far as the government is concerned, I'm simply not old enough for any job that gets paid more than minimum wage and has actual job security.
So what? Take whatever job you can get that has you working in your chosen field. Don't worry about pay. Don't worry about job security. Take it, work hard, learn a lot and figure that the education and resume fodder are your real goal and any money you happen to make is just gravy.
That's exactly how the IT world worked when I started my career (89-92 or so, ramping up from co-op to full-time positions). Everyone knew that fresh graduates had to go out and get screwed for a couple of years, making peanuts and doing crap jobs until they'd proven themselves. Why? At least for programmers it's a simple fact of life that there are relatively few who are really good at it, and there's virtually no way to separate the wheat from the chaff. So, real-world job experience on the resume was invaluable.
Then came the Internet bubble and everyone "learned" that newly-minted CS graduates from Podunk U with zero experience were worth $80K per year. That was an aberration, and not one that is likely to happen again, because it makes no logical sense.
The job market for IT people isn't that terribly bad right now; it's just slightly slower than normal. To get a job you have to want it, you have to work for it, and you have to suffer a little to build the credentials you need to get it.
So, stop whining, suck it up and take that low-paying, insecure job and prove that you're worth hiring.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Search out privately owned companies and apply, even if they aren't advertising. What we're seeing right now is a lot of publically traded companies whose stock has dropped considerably in the last few years. These same companies have 1) lost a lot of capital and are 2) cutting costs in an effort to restore market capitalization. Both of factors lead to these companies not wanting to hire many, if any, new employees -- especially for entry-level positions.
However, the plus side is that many privately owned companies are doing quite well right now. They're gobbling up the best graduates and planning for the future while their public competitors merely tread water.
So ... do what many others are doing right now. Go get a job with a privately owned company that is beating up on its competitors right now. In another year or two when the industry evens out and more companies start hiring like they once did, you can jump ship as you like. However, remember this: it's easier to get a job when you currently have a job.
This sig is false.
Social Contract? I don't remember signing any Social Contract!
The skills I acquired from literature classes help apply in more ways than I would have guessed. Take office politics for example. Literature classes teach you to extrapolate a characters motivations for their actions. Those skills help you navigate tough situations where politics are in play. Half your job as a programmer is navigating office politics, so those skills are critical to long term success as a programmer. Other skills in literature like learning how to deconstruct a piece of literature, to expose the underlying assumptions and framework. All these skills are applicable to every job because things are never what they seem. If you know your career will be programming, then major in something else. You will atleast graduate with a wider range of experience than if you stuck with CS.
I'm currently in a B.Sc. (Physics) and I'm a little worried about what to do after. I spend a large amount of time sharing that worry with others in the program. I was told when I got into the program that getting a job would be just as easy as if I had a B.A.Sc. (Engineering Degree). What I've discovered is that this isn't true. Most people aren't ready to offer the jobs to a person trained in the theory, they want someone who requires no training and can be thrust immediatly into that job. I fully understand this reality. My training does to a certain extent very nicely parrallel the Engineering program (I still have large amount of friends from my first year in Engineering, so I find out what they are doing and compare it to what I do). But after spending some time speaking with my dad about how disheartening it's going to be when I'm going to have spent $30,000 on just tuition (plus living expenses and the time I've invested) over these last 5 years (4 year program + 1 in Engineering) I realized something, largely with his help: No one owes me a job! It's my responsibility to carve out my place in life.
Personally I should have realized this a long time ago. I left engineering for physics because I had a genuine interest in what I could learn. The concepts and theory's were captivating and I had this thirst to learn them. I'm in my program because I enjoy it, but at the same time I though that maybe it would provide me with a job to help pay off the loans.
While I was in school though I started a small business with a friend and started making money there. It helps to pay for school etc, but what it really made me realize is that if the work you want doesn't exist, maybe you should attempt to create it. I understand the yearning for a job to help pay off the loans, but really after thinking about it, no one owes that to me. I owe it to myself to find a place in society and to find my niche (which I kind of did, but I'm not sure if this will support me). And realistically opening a small consulting business is remarkably easy (well I didn't have much trouble, it's amazing how many resources are out there for entreprenuers, especially young ones).
Either way though, good luck it's a hard road to travel, but you're definitely not alone.
First off, these are my experiences based on looking for a job in 1993 in Boston (which was right before the tech boom, and at the tail end of the early 90s recession). This should be generally good advice, but I can't speak to its effectiveness outside a major metro area.
I lived and worked in Boston for 7 years professionally, never making more than $40k. In fact, I started out at $27k, and usually worked 70+ hours/week for the first 3 or so years. I lived in my own apartment, and paid all my bills without going into debt. It's not really that hard, you just have to be careful and put off anything not completely necessary (like buying a new car, going on major vacations, good furniture, et al), and consider your first couple of years as an apprenticeship. Learn how businesses are run, and suck up all the experience you can. That will give you much better leverage to move upwards around 2006 or so, to a job with less hours and probably twice the pay you started with in 2003. And employers will be willing to pay it then, as you've proven yourself. 10 years after graduation, I now make well north of $100k, and consider it the payoff for being overworked/underpaid for much of my 20s.
Best of luck.
-Erik
There are always four sides to every story: your side, their side, the truth, and what really happened.
Sounds like you are in the condition many students find themselves in. A degree in hand, no (or minimal) experience, and all doors closed to you.
How do you get experience, to get that job?
Well the answer to that question is around every community. Charities! Donate you skills and time to local non-profit ventures. Yes, it doesn't pay (much), but experience comes with its own set of perks and benefits.
There are many charities out there. From helping with a politcal campaign, to church based, to drug rehab. Each requires skills that employers are seeking and usually the charities are willing to accept all help offered. Charity work will gain you your experience, help the community, and provide valuable networking.
I have recommended students try this approach for over 15 years and have had a 100% placement rate in well paying positions many of which resulted directly from the networkign gained in the charity work.
Jobs are out there, you just need to be creative to capture them.
Gator/Claria is Spyware.
I just found a job through flipdog.com. I found that flipdog consistently had more listings than monster or dice for my areas. Come to think of it, I found my last job a few years ago on monster. So -- it can work.
I understand the point you are making about the speed-learning courses, but you snidely broadly denegrate community college and that's not appropriate. I recently took a semester of Java at the local cc and I can't imagine a better foundation (and for like $200!). The prof. brought real-world experience from a major corporation, along with a very thorough knowledge and great enthusiasm. CC can be a very affordable way to really learn something. w/out having to sit for a 4 yr CS degree.
Drexel is an Engineering school in Philly and has a co-op program (5 year) for 3 years of that you get a job in your field(a little tuffer now) for 6 months and go to school for the other 6 winter/summer. I truely believe thats the only reason i have a job now and my friends don't. While i was working in the "field" in the summer they were working drying cars or working on the Boardwalk/Beach i gained experience and learned how write a kik but resume and went on many co-op interviews and got all the kinks/butterflies worked out. And in Working, yes for the Government(FAA), for a co-op and then a consulting company all while still in school and making good $$$ a week i learned alot. Office politics, always keep busy, don't burn bridges ALWAYS come in a few minutes early and leave a few minutes late. Just the little things... all before i was 21 I'm 24 now and a full time consultant for 2 years now.
I guess this was a big plug for Drexel but the fact of the matter is.... this job market blows... and also. don't listen to the year requirements just apply for the job anyway, and be truthful during interviews. Tell them what you DON'T know... but want to learn really bad... short learning curve... bla bla.
Myself, as well as a few friends have all gone through this. A couple have been looking for at least 6 months (maybe not as hard as they could) for a tech job but can't land one. The best way to get some experience under your belt is to try to find some tech support work, be it at an ISP, or a small hardware company, whatever. It may seem like a kick in the pants to hafta do those jobs when you have a degree, but as others have mentioned, it's nearly impossible to get a job w/o real world experience.
As an example, a buddy who is still finishing up his AAS is CS just managed to get a job doing help desk at a hardware maker and he's starting at $14/hr. It'll be enough to pay bills and rent for him. Oh, and don't forget to check the local papers... it may seem outdated but there are still a few jobs to be had there (employer may get 1,000 reusmes but it's worth a shot, it's how I got my present job).
good luck
I am a nobody. Since nobody is perfect, that means that I am perfect.
I'n posting this too late to get seen... but anyway:
Have you tried searching off line? There was a time when people were able to find jobs without using the internet. People even found programming jobs BEFORE the internet existed. *gasp*
You need to be agressive. Call up companies that you'd like to work for, find the person in charge of the tech department, get them on the phone and sell yourself.
Physically walk into companies, and start talking to people who work there.
Go to networking events in your area. All over there are user groups, places where geeks, and people in charge of geeks converge. Find those places and bring your resume along.
If you're in college start going to alumni association meetings in your area and networking with people.
Call up head hunters.
There's more to finding a job than search on Hotjobs, Dice and Monster.
Cire
Three years ago people were DROPPING OUT of school to join companies that promised them 65k a year plus a new car as a signing bonus. Jobs would come to students who didn't even try. This was not good, because it lead us to where we are today.
.net and Windows XP. To get it you have to lie on your resume.
Now we have the other extreme.
HR departments are now looking for a lot of people with specific experience that is hard to come by, or impossible to come by. They are trying to find people who can do the jobs of two or three people or someone they don't have to train at all.
I saw one job listing that wanted a person who had 5+ years of experience with
I saw another that wanted someone who knew HTML, JavaScript, Perl, etc... but also wanted the person to have experience using mainframe systems left over from the 70s and 80s.
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
If you want a job, the *LAST* thing you want is a university degree! You cultish self-aggrandizing Masters and Doctorates are the FIRST to get the axe! And the LAST to get rehired!
WHY would anyone want to go to university, when in most cases a job you can get with a college degree is enough to live?
You have to brainwash *yourself* to go to university thinking it'll get you a job!
You can get your CS degree, move to india, get your $400/mo and live like a king!
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Hell I though people around here would see the logic in all this, but guess there are to many bleeding heart liberals around here
Where is the logic in supporting one class of people over another class of people?
Sorry pal, you are the commie, we are the capitalists. you are one being guided by emotions, we are the ones being guided by logic. You are the moron here.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
There are other parts of the world which would be happy to employ you. Those immigrants coming to work at Microsoft are leaving places.
"I've even found one company that wants 10 years experience specifically with .NET -- go figure!"
.NET not been around for 10 years? why post such ridiculous requirements if they are not possible?
is it just me, or has
While the economy in general is in a downturn, one of the few areas that's doing well is the housing market. The housing market is *hot* and demand/prices are insane. (One of the reasons I'm staying at my parents house for a year or two - To save money and hope the housing market slows down.)
Average sell time in my area is less than a week from listing to sale.
A house up the street from me sold *the same day* as it went on the market. It hadn't even been listed in the paper yet.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
After your resume manages to get through the hellacious world often known as, "The HR Bitchez!", and you land an interview..
You'll find you're often shot down.
Be sure to thank them for shooting you down. As in, thank them for their time, and allowing you to learn something about their company. (You did research the company, didn't you?!)
Few people do that, it seems. When those few do it, people take notice, and those few people suddenly have the advantage of their name standing out more from the crowd.