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Demise Of The Premier .NET community site
Seems like something has horribly gone wrong at ASPFriends.com. The site is being closed as a result of a break down in negotiations with Microsoft over support for funding this developer community forum which has over 73000 members who post over 12 million messages a month regarding MS development. The primary reason for this break down seems to be do with the contract that had to be signed to receive funding. I'm no lawyer and I've not seen the entire contract but it seems like it contains clauses which basically state "at our discretion, with 30 days notice we can terminate this contract and take ownership of your site".
Keep thinking MS is a community friendly company, see what happens.
...you'll get bitten eventually. Its a shame for these guys and somewhat shortsighted from MS's point of view as theres a chance they could alienate a large number of developers, surely the last thing you'd think they'd want to do. But as has been proved in the past MS only thinks about the bottom line, ie $$$$, and external developers don't shift Windows and Office in bulk.
You play with a tiger, expect to get scratched.
...
It's almost as if they are completely ignorant of the fact that DEVELOPERS are the only ones keeping Microsoft in their position, so -- of *COURSE* Microsoft is going to be aggressive about controlling them.
The only way to stop MS is to just *NEVER* write code for them. Ever.
They know this
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
This kinda shit happens simply because MS is run by lawyers and marketers, each and every time MS will choose short term gain over a long term beneficial relationship. Partners, developers, customers, MS will screw you over if it means they can make a quick buck.
And I use MS products for 90% of my development, perhaps it is time to pick up some books on competitors instead...
Wax-Museum Fire Results In Hundreds Of New Danny DeVito Statues
Good products are only a part of the overall make up of a good company. It is just too bad that this guy had to learn the hard way that, despite their public party line, Microsoft is only happy when they're in full control, running the show.
If you step out of line or play even one note off key, they kick you out of the orchestra and confiscate your instrument. Never mind that you paid for it yourself. They own it now.
I'm glad he didn't sign that contract, but I'm sad that he has to loose not only his years of work, but the motivation to support his community.
Even if it is a Microsoft community. Maybe some day he'll get into a better community with a company that will nurture his zeal.
Kalen D'arrie
First, he is ethical. Which is at the root of the free software movement.
I guess he could not see the kind of redmond actions his site is suffering right now because he must have blinded himself due to his total devotion and defense to MS products. Being the one to be hurt always make things easier to understand.
Yet, as he points out, he could go and get bought, or he could go on and continue to support his site that way, but prefers to shut it down due to ethical reason. Good man.
Second. He has built a serious community site through a lot of efforts which is also the core of the free software efforts. Apparently, redmond can cope with this kind of behavior (too independant for them, probably) despite recent speeches about community spirit.
Third, such a fine man, could be very usefull in helping some projects in getting what they lack, the kind of features that made this man stick to redmond so long. There must be something real in his praises of their products and too often, unix cultured people dont get that kind of "things".
But he still links to asp.net forums despite all they just did to him.
Well, he probably dreams in a "deus ex machina" Gates, coming down from his tower and putting things together, because he is "Doing the right thing and letting Ms know when its own employees hurt it's reputation is vital.". Yes, it must be "some employee", it can't be the compagny as a whole.
That is his flaw probably. He still dont get that what is happening to him is the spirit of redmond activity and has been the key to their success since the beginning.
Repeat after me:"extend and embrace; or strangle to death."
So we might see a redmond move to correct this situation, but it will be a one time pr move. The kind of "redmond make a deal with peru government" move.
What prevent Micro$oft from picking up the site after it is closed?
I remember a few years ago I was a beta tested for some MS software. Bored one day, i checked out some of the beta EULA, and was horrorfied to see that I agreed to let MS take my computer and all software at whim for testing purposes. Yep, they could take my machine away from me if they wanted too.
I quickly got out of the beta program after that.
So basically these guys made a website for ASP developers and expected Microsoft to be so thankful that they'll pay for it out of the greedyness of their hearts.
Sure, that could have worked:)
True warriors use the Klingon Google
This guy is complaining about what the MVP designation means...uh, no kidding it's politicized and inaccurate. It's a *marketing tool*. It has nearly zero real world utility -- it just gets MS free tech support workers. Hell, other companies should do this. "Maytag MVP".
Doing tech/dev assistance has always been amorphous. You earned the respect of the community through helping alone. Trying to control the process by controlling the database that marks people as "helpful" or not is doomed to failure.
May we never see th
Oops...because the contract wasn't signed, they can't force the owner to give them the database, so they can't get it without spidering.
I can't say that I don't give a fuck. I've just run out of fuck to give.
For those interested, Microsoft's response:b index=1&Pos tID=88049
http://asp.net/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?ta
I could not justify my existence if I were a turkey farmer. Would I terminate myself? Undoubtably, yes.
The big mistake this guy made was a completely natural one: he confused culture with market share. In our society we place almost no value on non-owner participation. No matter what something may mean to you personally, no matter how much energy you may put into promoting it, no matter how much the owners materially profit from your efforts, it's still 100% theirs and 0% yours, and they can take it away from you at a whim.
Companies love you to be a cheerleader for Version 1 until Version 2 comes out, then you are supposed to abandon Version 1 and embrace Version 2. Britney is out, Samantha is in. Your website must shut down. Not because you did anything wrong. They just don't need you any more. You were an asset, now your loyalty to their previous products is competition. You're in the way.
Save your loyalty and devotion for your family and friends, your ideals and your personal standards -- the parts of your culture that can't be owned by others or taken away.
"at our discretion, with 30 days notice we can terminate this contract and take ownership of your site".
Thanks for doing business with Microsoft. Behavior like this is the best way to get people to convert to open source. It was in my case. I was contracted to do a database for an embassy and when I took it to the embassy, page fault errors. Called M$, got charged for what was essentially their defect.
I switched to open source, and haven't looked back and I have happier customers.
I use these lists regularly. On more than one occasion, they have saved me countless hours (and days even) when I have had some sort of unusual technical question. In fact, these lists are somewhat of a "security blanket". The news groups are a lot slower, more impersonal. Back in the beta days, many of the MS project team would answer questions on the lists. I've personally corresponded with authors of books, presenters, and other experts. I'm going to be really bummed if and when they go down. I also find these lists very useful as a .NET User Group leader where I can announce my meetings in the community list.
.NET topics, and a great guy in general), Charles didn't want to accept the terms of the MS agreement (he went to MS in the first place because he could no longer fund the list- costs about $3K per month).
Anyway, I've kind of been taking a back seat and watching the responses. It seems like its basically a battle between MS and Charles Carrol, the list owner. Actually, Charles hasn't really said anything as of yet since he has been in Florida, but according to Scott Guthrie (the MS founder/expert on ASP among other
A lot of people are guessing he didn't want to accept because of one of the clauses-- saying how MS gets the list if it closes. A quote from Scott's email:
Over the course of the last few days, Charles has refused to reply to
our emails, and has immediately hung up on us the two times we've been
able to get through to him on the phone.
We've had a long association with Charles and respect the work he's done
with the community, so it's distressing to the team and to me personally
that Charles has chosen this path.
What is suprising to me is that a bunch of people on the list (over 70K people total on the list) are offering to pony up $20. Kloberg Mac, apparently a close friend of Charles, has said the following:
The reason Charles hasn't responded yet is because he's currently in Florida, teaching a class.
He wanted me to let you know, that although your willingness to save AspFriends is appreciated,
*** PLEASE DO NOT SEND ANY DONATIONS AT THIS TIME ***
I'm sure he will comment in more detail later...
Regardless of what happens, this is a MAJOR PR issue for MS. I think it needs to be resolved as QUICKLY as possible. A lot of people are starting to get really peaved at MS. I question why they got involved in the first place. Even though the group is obviously benefitting MS, I really don't think Charles should have went to MS. Getting money from MS (or any company for that matter) is going to have some strings attached!
Unfortunately I cannot think of a great solution to this. I suppose paypal donations are one way, but even that means there is no guarantee that the 3K bill would be paid each month. Requiring donations or a subscription means that you lose out on a lot of the experienced techies who are contributing as well as the newbies who are looking to learn. Losing either means a critical hit (techies in terms of answering questions, newbies in terms of growing the list).
On the other hand, if MS starts a mailing list, it will be percieved as totally biased and probably have stringent rules. Example: no bashing MS products or MS people. People want "freedom of speech" and an independent list means that.
Meanwhile, I'll be watching the activity and will try to post updates to this thread as it unfolds.
This reminds me of the realnames debacle with MS screwing the guy over although he was making a profit or possibly BECAUSE he was making a profit. MS make some very easy to use tools, most notably VS with VB and VC++ and ASP. However they are a bunch of thieving bastards and the way MS behaves one would that those scum in sales and marketing would gladly sell their mothers if it brought a buck or two into MS' tills.
It seems, given that the only two parts of MS to actually make a profit are the parts that have the world's computers in a vice grip, and the others that can't do the same lose atrocious amounts of money, that MS is actually shit scared that the last two bastions will fall also and they will start to bleed money and eventually die as a company. I think that MS can be trusted to fuck it up and try to squeeze more control out of customers even though that is the very reason the customers are leaving in the first place.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't "News for Nerds. Stuff that matters." Especially that last part.
Karma: Not Particularly Funny.
Yikes!
.Net development, I only study it to determine what sort of progress Microsoft is making with regards to its absolutely obsessive nature to destroy Java and "code reusability" technology that is platform independant.
.Net I was naturally interested.
.Net's components, but of Microsoft's seeming death wish with regards to how it regards its customers.
:-)
I am not interested in
But when I seen the side post about
I am continually surprised, if not left agast, by the continual self destructive nature, not only of the architecture and design of a lot of
Honestly, in my pursuit of companies during the past year I have started my own company with regards to software development, I always seem to find a post about MS that makes my sales job a dream.
That sales job is convincing companies to dump, what I consider "old school IT policy" and consider something I call Open Systems Engineering Best Practices. Which builds IT systems companies actually OWN THEMSELVES. Lots of companies don't even know they can do this, and are surprisingly shocked and astounded when I point this out and what it means to even HAVE an IT department in your organization with an OSE philosophy.
I think, in recent SEC filings, it is quite obvious, that MS would be in serious, if not fighting for its life, if it wasn't being protected by the US government. So far MS has been able to pay the bills in washington to the right people, so it remains a monopoly that is legal, and can fund itself in some of the worst economic times in the past 10 years in the US.
Meanwhile, I continue to Microsoft were it hurts, and more and more companies everyday are recognizing the huge Penguin ARMADA that is gathering in "Rebel Space" to take out the Microsoft Death Star.
We shall use the open source, and we shall prevail.
-Hack
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.