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The Darker Side of Computer Recycling
Makarand writes "We all know that with electronics it is very difficult to be green. We leave
our computer waste in the recyle bin lest dangerous chemicals like lead and mercury
seep into our landfills. The more dedicated environmentalists make a trip
to the local recyling center where they may be asked around to pay around $15-$30 to recycle their old PCs. But guess what -- these 'recyclers' merely
ship 50-80% of this stuff overseas. The Mercury News has a
report on this ugly side of the PC industry which merely
exports the recycling problems instead of solving them."
eBay.
has a cousin who has some unpleasant health problems from living in a contaminated area where they do a lot of CPU recycling. It's a real disaster -- her cousin could tell you some stories, including the time that she found a piece of circuit board in her dinnertime meal (!).
/me turns head and looks at pile of old cases, containing semi-working bits and bobs.
$30 a piece? Thats more then it'd cost to send them to a random address with no return address on.
MPAA anyone?
Is how China is using the computers we ship over there!
It turns out they have a huge cyborg program in the works, and are literally turning their excess population in human/computer hybrids! They saw they Borg on Star Trek and were apparently quite impressed with their efficiency. Watch out! The Chinese Borg Army will be coming very soon!
Graphic article/pictures from the BBC:
article and in pictures
Speaking of shipping problems somewhere else... can we ship the RIAA execs there too?
---
Programming is like sex... Make one mistake and support it the rest of your life.
We have a problem. It is pollution of our local environment by decomposing (!) computer parts. The solution is to get rid of those parts so that our own environment is not hurt.
Easiest solution: ship it somewhere else.
The countries that we ship these things to are HAPPY to take them. It makes them money and it gives them spare computer parts.
If you think that taking away another country's means of existence is the right thing to do, perhaps it's time to sign up at your local anarchist hovel for the spring trip to the WTO meeting.
Trade that is welcomed by both parties is not bad. Just because third party interlopers feel the need to stamp and huff about it, it doesn't mean that it should be done away with.
I have been pwned because my
refurbishment!
How ironic is that?
I demand a million helicopters and a DOLLAR!
Yeah, we recycle PC's sir! *Takes old 486 DX2, reformats, slaps win 3.1x back on it, and slaps "$39.99 starter computer!" on it.*
We exploit them to create these devices and pollute their country when we are finished with them. I really despise what the world has become, despite all the wonderful advances we have made. I hope this is just a speedbump in our progress as human beings.
Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.
After trolling my local recycling drive, I came away with a 19" Dell monitor, a couple PII laptops, and other juicy stuff.
There were even a few resellers picking through the scrap as well.
One man's trash...
This is pretty heinous, if you ask me. Any time a business takes your money in exchange for some service and then doesn't follow through, an injustice is done. While this doesn't compare to that crematorium owner in Georgia who just dumped bodies in the woods, it is something to be upset over.
It's a great irony, though, that what is eventually done with these recycled computers is much "greener" than actually recycling them would be. Computer equipment is made from minerals and rare Earth metals such as silicon, glass, and copper, not to mention metal for cases. Recycling them involves separating and molding them into new shapes, which is an involved and energy-demanding process that necessarily creates pollution. The raw materials to build these goods from scratch, however, are often mined from the ground, and if the used products are placed in landfills, that's exactly to where they'll return.
While it's atrocious that companies should mislead their customers like this, I'm thankful that in this case the Earth is the greatest beneficiary.
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
I remember reading about this here in August.
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
.. but what is?
What can we do to eliminate the problem, or, at the very least, tone the issue down a little?
The hardware in question is either too far beyond repair, or to old to serve a useful purpose, so is it best to approach this from a toxic waste disposal point of view, slap an extra $100 onto the cost of your new PC, and treat old computing gear like medical/chemical waste?
I've always said we should just pack our garbage into a missile and fire it at the sun, and it seems like an even better solution now.
Some may say that the problems of the missile exploding and reigning fire and computers upon people is bad, but just think about it. If that thing explodes over your neighborhood. BAM! Computers for everone on the block.
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
Nothing has changed since the last time this was brought up or the time before that.
People need to understand that the countries that these parts are shipped to either A) Want them. B) Don't care about the damage they do.
I read the article, but there are no new insights into this at all. Take this quote for instance:
"``I don't know yet if I like this work,'' said Li, 30, who had been on the job about one month. ``But back home there are no jobs. There is no money. There is nothing to do.''"
That is the plain and simple truth to this. There is a market for this crud. They are making money by doing it. Is it the most healthy way of doing it? More than likely not, but it is a way to make money.
Someone needs to publish that link about the place in India that takes apart oil tankers. Big Karma boost in that.
If you work in Hickville, IA and get $35,000 a year that is a good paying job. Get that much in Cali and you are very near poverty. It is all a matter of cost of living per region. C'mon guys this is basic economics.
I hate people that dont have a sig
Here's another part of the problem:
Incremental upgrading is part of the drive that keeps the marketing-PR-coup of Moore's Law running.
I just finished a book chapter entitled "The Leapfrog Effect" that details some of the ways in which developing nations HAVE to run their technology into the ground before upgrading. They can't afford to make the incremental steps. In fact, as it turns out, neither can the so-called "developed world" - they just hide many of the true costs.
Upgrade when you have to, not just because you are bored and there's a new game out that needs incrementally better hardware.
STF
"The Leapfrog Effect" is a chapter in: Managing Globally with Information Technology (Sherif Kamel, ed). IDEA Group Publishing (in press)
With 3 486's and some RAM, it is easier than you think to put together a lightning fast X server and workstation. These machines can do real work...
Perhaps the emphasis should be on re-use before shifting to recycle. There are upstart geeks all over the place that have no money... and in other news Mr Smith just threw out a Pentuim I PC, or a Mac Quadra....
What makes a man want to be a mouse? (Python's Flying Circus)
I usually just give my old computers away somewhere -- what us geeks consider horribly slow and outdated can still be very useful to other people who can't afford/don't need state-of-the-art machines. What they do with them one they truely die, I don't know.
A Minesweeper clone that doesn't suck
Haha... ok so what your saying is we take the ground water and filter out the lead to use? Of course the elements exist but they are not in a position to hurt us. Your argument is basically that 99.9% of environmental scientists are totally off in thinking that chemicals getting dumped is a bad thing.
unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
I must be dreaming.
The person responsible for that word should be electrocuted right now.
Oh well, at least I know how to call that stuff in the recycle bin on my desktop.
my
...and whether it's batteries in Bangalore or PC's in Punguyng, the 3rd world is paying the price for our conspicuous consumption. This story has been battered around before, and I'm afraid it's just not news any longer.
Instead of recycling your old pc hardware, donate it instead through the World Computer Exchange. Hardware donations are a real boon to the people (especially children) of third world countries. Projects like the Goa Schools Computers Projects and the Digital Equalizer Initiative help provide the less fortunate w/such hardware and train them to use it, too. The DEI also accepts donations.
When the schools have finished with them, then where do they go ?
Semper ubi sub ubi
I called Dell a few days ago looking to get pricing information. It turns out, with their low-end offering in the Dimension line, you can choose Wordperfect Office, MS Office SBE, or MS Office Pro -- bt not MS Works. On a low-end PC. WTF?
So I called Dell, asking if they could override this and somehow install Works. The rep said: "No." I said "No big deal I guess. I have Office 97 Pro from an old PC which I can install instead." This got him revved up.
Rep: "Well, sir, that's not legal."
Even after explaining that I bought this product at a retail store, and told him that the old PC was being tossed because it was no longer working, I could hear that he still wanted to lecture me.
So I reiterated, "I'm literally throwing out this computer because it doesn't work -- my license therefore is unused, and I can install it on my new PC, right?"
Rep: "That's illegal. Throwing away a PC is illegal. You might be able to see if someone would take it for parts if you gave them $30 or $40, but you can't just throw it away. You might be able to ask the manufacturer to take it back."
I did know this already, and had planned to bring it to my local waste facility for recycling.
But here's the punchline...
Me: "It's a Dell. Will you take it back?"
Rep: "No."
Unintended Results From U.S. Hardware Dumps In Asia [2/25/02]
China Bans U.S. Electronic Scrap [6/1/02]
Recycling The First World, in the Third [8/23/02]
I seem to recall all of these had the usual accompanying photojournalism showing women picking through bushels of desolderied TTL gates and such.
(I'm not saying this is a dupe, I'm just pointing out previous discussions.)
I'm not in the least bit surprised, having read a few court transcripts of cases against recycling firms.
Make no mistake, waste disposal is about big bucks. For many materials such as chemical waste, waste oil, contaminated soil, and manufactured products such as computers, batteries and cars, the costs for recycling are enormous. Consumers, governments and environmentally-conscious firms know this, but are still often willing to pay the hefty disposal fees.
Enter the recycling company. They'll take your toxic waste in exchange for your dollars... and now they have a choice. They can actually dispose of the waste properly while making a small profit, or just dump it somewhere and make a ton of money. So, the oil ends up in the sea, the chemicals are dumped somewhere in Poland, the contaminated soil is diluted with good soil and used in horse riding arena's. The computers end up in China where the valuable items are salvaged by less-than-clean methods.
With the great anounts of money to be made in recycling by sweeping waste under the rug, it is no surprise criminal organisations have taken an interest, and are at least partly involved in a number of recycling firms. In Holland, reputed to be an environmentally conscious country, none of the larger recycling firms has clean hands, and have used any and all of the above methods to cheaply get rid of waste. It's not just the computers, people.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
Tech TV ran a great program on this some time ago.
Check it out here.
A co-worker of mine has a friend in China, and it is something that he really takes seriously. He actually wrote an article in our IT newsletter a few months ago, talking about the waste that we dump into Asia. All sorts of countries are doing this. Companies are paying to dump this junk off to the cheapest landfill. It is sick. It is something that we need to take seriously. Large ships take this stuff to Asia every day.
I also read that there are start-up companies that are trying to take this stuff and dismantle it properly. Recycling this stuff, and appropriately preventing serious toxic hazards.
The first way to start is simple... Don't throw this stuff into the trash. Landfills are becoming full of this stuff. Donate working computer stuff, or try to find a suitable recycling facility. It is important to realize that this can be done with all electronics.
The editor of that paper's favorite writer is Hg Wells
The reason why these countries take the waste and dispose of it poorly may be a little less obvious than you might think. The first step in economic growth and prosperity for a country like China (or Bangladesh for that matter) is agricultural production. They will make cotton and clothing, or wheat and grains. They can do this cheaper than anyone else because their labour costs are low. They export it to rich countries and that money they receive increases their standards of living.
Unfotunately the US (and Europe) is preventing the poorest nations on earth from entering the Agricultural market (remember agricultural export is the first step to development) because they have MASSSIVE subsidies on farm products and clothing.
Taking waste from industrialised nations will be the next big export (in effect) for these countries as they have been prevented from making a sustainable living in agriculture. We are driving them to accept our waste because we are protecting inefficient local industries.
An important thing to note here. I think the WTO is a good thing! The WTO is all about stopping these stupid agricultural sibsidies, so that countries like China can export their goods to the world. In turn that will mean they won't take our waste (because they won't need to). In the end that will force us to deal with our own waste problems! Unfortunately (AGAIN) the US and Europe talk about free trade only when it is in their best interests. When they realise that subsidies only hurt the poorest nations, and adjust their local industries accordingly, the world we be much better for these poor nations. The suffereing in the US and Europe will only be temporary. A few farmers will either need to improve the way they work to be MORE COPETITIVE or find a new career. This really is only a short term problem.
An example of a country doing the right thing in this area is Australia. They have come out this month and said they will abolish subsidies on imports from the 50 poorest nations on earth. At the same time local recylcing of things like IT equipment is starting to happen.
Some of the consequences is they are paying sugar farmers to change industries. Get out of the sugar industry. "We are not competitive. There is too much sugar in the world." The farmers get payed to find a new career.
Hang on a minute... this can be a Win-Win situation !!!
lounge around on the blue couch
I'd take any old computer! As long as it's a 486 or higher, it's still useful. Especially to a geek! Or give it to your child. Or just put it somewhere and use it as a typewriter. Or a print server. Or a regular ol' server. Or a file server. Or a router. Or a dildo. Er...maybe not the last one...but you catch my drift.
I mean, one guy's recycling problem is another guy's Can you imagine.. MOSIX cluster.
--
If you moderate this, then your children will be next.
I'm not an engineer, so this is an honest question... are there any substitutes for the toxins that go into PCs, like lead, mercury, etc?
If there are, perhaps we should be using those environmentally safer alternatives, even though they may cost more initially? Just like we've removed lead from our gasoline, maybe it's time we figured out how to remove lead and other toxins from our PCs.
There's 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Locking it up in the glass of a CRT is a pretty damned good way to keep discarded lead out of the water table. In fact, I can't think of a better one. Can you?
Dahlmann tightly grips the knife, which he may have no idea how to use, and steps out into the plain.
We have 'big trash day' in our city, they even take simi-hazardous items like old freezers and water heaters....
Once a year they even take old oil and other truely hazardous things....
What's the difference in an old PC?.. Besides licensing issues...
---- Booth was a patriot ----
...chances are I was the buyer. I'm becoming like NASA: buying old hardware in order to be able to run MS-DOS 20 years from now.
In Sault Ste. Marie, ON (Canada), we (Clean North) run a computer recycling event twice per year. We accept old components from the community (businesses, individuals, government) and charge them $1CDN (about 5 cents US) to take it. We get as much running as we can to give to other charities, or use for ourselves (we have an environmental resource room on the main street in town), as well as sell on the day of the event.
Anything else goes on a truck bound for southern Ontario, where we have an arrangement with a recycler to accept our shipment, and reclaim as much of the metal and plastic as possible.
This is the third story I have read about exporting the problem of dealing with this waste, however, those recyclers that we have dealt with in Southern Ontario have been most accomodating about telling us exactly what happens to the materials. At times, we have even had them pay the shipping.
Our last event was in October, and you can read about it on our web site.
Problem 1: PC/MAC lifespan is too short. Why not make computers so easy to upgrade that any grandma could do it without feeling intimidated. We're almost at that point now, why not promote this as a way to to reduce computing costs? Guess what?...most people aren't gamers and they don't want to fiddle too much with the hardware, but if they were convinced that it was easy and cheap to upgrade their current computer they probably would.
Problem 2: Computer manufaucters should be responsible for making computers more recycle friendly. Start an organization that makes computer product recycling standards and promote those eco friendly products.
Problem 3: Software that is not upgrade friendly (you know...those guys from Redmond). Boycott software manufacturers that aren't upgrade friendly or won't let you legally move your existing software from one machine to another.
"You helped our nation celebrate its bicentennial in 17 -- 1976." --George W. Bush, to Queen Elizabeth, Wash
Junking old computers is not the way to recycle them. A computer is only as obsolete as the software it runs. Here's some examples of how I have recycled old computers..
:)
2 386DX DNS servers
5 386-486 thin clients using a multitude of different thin client/diskless node configurations. PXES is a great distro for this type of use.
1 486DX Laptop + Trinux (Awesome network trouble shooting/ consoling tool)
1 100Mhz Pentium Sound server (just winamp + VNC + a soundcard)
I'm sure there's tons of other uses I haven't touched on, if you can think of any let me know! It might make a good ask slashdot article
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.
I see a lot of mis-guided and mis-informed posts on this subject. Not surprising really, since the waste 'recyclers' don't exactly advertise their business practices.
1) In most cases, the countries involved in importing PC waste *do not* ask for it. Recent case-in-point being China, which after banning the import of US PC waste *still* cops both US and non-US PC waste. The people don't want it*, the government doesn't want it. But the businesses can make a f*#ckload of money doing it, so it continues.
2) One previous poster has pointed out that the Chinese people *want* the waste dumps to continue, so that they may work. To which I say, "utter bullshit". If you're a techie and, because of the economic climate are forced to work as a dish pig in the local diner, does that mean that you *want* to work there? No. You work there because *that's all there is!* It's the same with the people in China and other 3rd/2nd-world countries who panhandle our old 286 motherboards in corrosive acid for the tiny amounts of gold on the traces.
3) For anyone who thinks putting this crap in landfil is a *good* solution (like one previous poster) - lead, arsenic and other chemicals that remain on PCBs and other PC parts can *kill* you. If you don't believe me, try regularly eating old-paint flakes that contain lead.
4) To all the people who cite refurbishment of old PC parts, networked clusters and the like: You must look at the entire energy chain before you can assert that refurbishment of old equipment is better than replacing with new. Five networked 486's are all going to need power. They're all going to give off at least some amount of ozone. Basically, they're all going to pollute when running. Compare this to the pollution and energy usage of the single Athlon 1GHz you would have replaced it with, combined with the energy cost and pollution generated by recycling the old machines properly. Once you have your result (and you better use a proper equation, not just some approximations), THEN you can talk about refurbishment being more environmentally friendly than proper recycling.
Janie took my gun...
I've pointed out the population explosion in the bay area many times, every time I bring that point up I get modded into oblivion... But fuck it, I got karma to burn...
:) geek cominucae continues) Since we're the teachers its up to us to show the y to the (quote"l4m3rz"unquote) the path to rightiousnuss.
/. ..... it requires some action.
First let me explain why I'm an expert on this. My family has lived in san jose since 1901, we started out here as immigrant sicilian ranchers, and over the years went from being just the fruitpickers to owning a lot of east side san jose, and now we own strip malls (w00t) I hang out on slash because during the boom, I was quite the sysadmin, and came to know this place.
Back to the subject of enviromental disasters...
My great grandfather, grandfather, heck even my uncles could go to any stream in the bay area and fish without worries of toxic fish with 3 eyes. Before milpitas became a great big office complex they would take their shotguns out to the duck blinds and get duck.
These days though, there isn't shit left. Guadelupe river has a big sign "DONT EAT THESE FISH POISONOUS" all along it's banks. They say it's because of the "quicksilver" (read mercury) mines that were prevalent in the almaden valley area, but those existed WAY before IBM, which sits along the coyote creek which is a feeder into the Guadelupe.
What does this have to do with recycling computer stuff? Well let me tell you....
Since i've pretty much been jobless the last 2 years, i've gone back to my second love of bicycle riding. Riding a bike is a lot differerent than driving a car because if you want to stop to look at something.. No big deal. Hit the breaks and stop for a minute..
Last week I was riding along almaden expressway when I saw an AT style case laying in the creekbed (Almaden expressway runs along the guadelupe) I parked my bike, walked over and decided to take a look.
It looked like an old pentium class PC, I whipped out my swiss army knife's phillips attatchment to see what was under the hood..
Well, there was definetly a p133 in there. Nice of socket7 to make it easy to pocket this little treasure. Ram turned out to be 4 16bit EDO ram modules totaling 64 megs.
Hard drive had enough oxidation where I didn't want it, same went for the floppy....
But the point i'm trying to make is here in SV people have been dumping this type of semi usefull electronic shit for years in our creeks, and the combination of population explosion with enviromental hazzards has really fucked up the ecology of SV.
Now moderators, (and rob, cause i know you mod my shit once in a while) please.. This is the god honest truth i'm telling here, any negative mods would be an injustice to the truth (isn't that what good journalism is about anyways?)
Compare San Jose ecological system with a close sister city like portland. Portland OR. has just as many bright talented people as SJ/SV (think M$) The health of their river and stream systems just blows doors over anything we have because they took the time to think ahead (should we whore ourselves out for business or should we keep quality of life in mind)
Here in SJ, people are basically dumping their systems in the creeks and steams. Maybe i'm just being a bit optimistic here, but since so many of us geeks are outta work right now shouldn't we do something about it??? Seriously folks, go download some "router centric" version of *nix, turn those old POS 133's into broadband routers for those not in know. WTF I can find any ISA 3com NIC at a surplus store for less than a dollar.
I love what I used to do, I loved edumucating people on just how they can get the most out of their pc's. In this day and age of firewire capture and such, we need to let people know that their old 486-pentium 200mhz still got some life left in them in the form of hella phat broadband routers that will not only protect them from the evil assholes of the internet, but will log it too (Soooooo much better than my old linksys router)
You know... this is our scene.. And despite GWB being a total cocksucking dickhead to technology (yeah i hear you GWB, u n daddy want oil) we put our faith, our geeky little belief in thing like fuel cells, organic LED's and the like because ultimately we know it's better.
I can't really comment much on the havoc IBM and other companies have wreaked havoc on our ecology, but I know what we gotta do to stretch out the "usefullness" of what we got. And folks, there are two ways you can fucking approach it..
A. educate people..
B. stick your head up your ass.
So my advice to all of you is, if you want to prevent this sort of crap from continueing, DO IT FOR FREE!!! seriously, I consider myself an out of work techno hippie. Set up that killer BSD server with no backdo0rz fo free. Fuck it, aint no shame in promotin yo name. Trust me folks, all the no-geek people out there will love it when you show them how they can use their sprintlink wirelesss dsl to link to an 20 gig archive of data being served over a wireless link. Just don't whine about it, do something!@!!!!!
Well, i hope I've inspired folks to do something instead of whining about it. Sorry u all but im on my second glass of wine and aint coming down. (still can type
Becoming an enviromentall activist on this subject requies more than post on
Yours Truly...
--toq
How similar is an interesting question- in each country it's a nasty job, but is there any information on the relative working conditions, the level of education of the workers as to the health and environmental issues, and the avenues of recourse for workers in cases of abuse? Any correlation with the degree of democracy?
Curtains for windows?
I helped start a computer recycling business (provided business, computer expertise, and moral support). My friend is still running the business after 5 years. The industry is going through lots of changes, however not once has he ever sent something overseas. In fact nothing ends up in the landfill. He is proud to exceed all epa, federal, state, and local guidelines. I cant imageing that shipping stuff overseas would save money. I also wonder if the origanators of the salavage are aware of how its being disposed of. At least everytime I hear of this story I cringe. Maybe its cause Im in the midwest, but dont know of any salvage operator that does this. I would be interested to hear from other people in the business. starjax
Locking it up in the glass of a CRT is a pretty damned good way to keep discarded lead out of the water table. In fact, I can't think of a better one. Can you?
Yes.
My argument is that 99.9% of environmental scientists are neither chemical nor physical engineers.
Unfortunately, the reverse is true. 99.9% of chemical and physical engineers are not environmental scientists.
Environmental science is hardcore - it requires chemistry, biology, earth science AND a specialised series of courses. I picked the university of sydney at random (high google page rank,) but the requirements are similar here at Columbia.
The environmental scientists know their chemistry - the chemical engineers don't know their biology, meteorology or geology, which is where the problem lies (I don't want to badmouth everyone in that discipline; I'm a molecular biologist but I make an effort to keep abreast of the broader context of my work. I know some chemical engineers who are quite savvy on what happens outside of a synthesis facility.)
The good and new comes from no quarter where it is looked for, and is always something different from what is expected.
The article said it is created there, why shouldn't it be returned there for recycling? They should do a better job of it, but that is really their deal, not ours.
They made it, we bought it, used it and sold it back to them when we where done. I have no problem with that. They should do a better job with disposing of it. I am glad it is there and not here!
Of course, this is all based on the fallacy that a nation REQUIRES an export driven economy to prosper, which is ludicrous. How did the United States or Australia for that matter prosper when they never have relied on agricultural exports as a foundation of their economy? The south had cotton and tobacco yes, but the north got by pretty well eating their own damn food.
It is an absolute MYTH that trade is a necessary part of a thriving economy. People need to create value locally. They can build better houses, create better laws, mine locally... They don't need us anymore than we need them, which in our case in the United States is not at all. We have always supplied our own people with all the food they need in abundance. The only reason we export food is because we produce so much.
We subsidize our farmers because we want to protect the agricultural way of life, and to insure we do not become reliant on a foreign source of food. There is nothing more damaging to a nation than to become dependent on a foregin source of key resources. If you think oil is a problem, food is much worse.
What you miss is these countries are poor because they have no system of justice or property rights. No one bothers doing anything like large scale agriculture or any other economic activity because there is no inscentive. These countries are subsistance farmers or they grow REAL cash crops like coca or the opium poppy. Everything else just isn't worth it. Most crops require careful cultivation and investment in the land to grow enough to make a profit. This investment is not feasible when a virtual anarchy exists.
Personally, I wish there were far fewer people in the world so the United States could become an agricultural economy again. I would join the Amish in a heartbeat if they didn't believe in god. I don't want to buy anyone elses shit, and I don't want to sell any of my shit. The world used to be that way, before this corporate fascist system of capitalism was implimented by the rich industrialists and their progressive puppets around the turn of the century. Now we are all just slaves, spending half our productive lives going through indoctrination in schools before we become employees in the system we call the global economy. I want my own life, my own future. I don't want to answer to anyone, and I don't want anyone to answer to me. It used to be this way...
I don't read or respond to AC posts
Sorry, but ... I need to say here that countries like mine (south America) and surely Africa are bigger technology trash cans? Is that new for you? If this is new I'm reading the wrong page.
Please post similar programs from other provinces and states. It's feels a lot better to donate computers instead of throwing them out.
And what would a /. posting be without my 2 cents ... ....)
(Boy, I can feel the flames on this one already, but here goes
From the article: They dip circuit boards and chips in acid to recover small amounts of gold, inhaling the fumes and dumping the acid into a nearby river that is dying.
We are not asking them to do that. I don't think Westerners should feel extremely guilty over these facts. Other countries have governments, regulations, and rules. It's up those goverments to actually create the safety regulations. We can ask, but they make the final decision. Sure we can stop "using" those countries for our own benefit as much as we do. I know North America does a lot of wrong for the sake of capitalism.
And also "migrant workers are paid pennies to crack open and sort the parts of monitors and circuit boards".
I am ignorant of the economical facts about those countries, but how do we know that it's as bad as it sounds. I mean, we live in the most prosperous nations of the world -- pretty much anything might sound bad to us. Might those pennies actually buy food, clothing, etc; maybe those are pennies they would not have otherwise had. If so then that's one good point amongst all the negatives. I'm just trying to say we need to look into every reported statement carefully before jumping to conclusions. Media outlets do love sensationalism.
It makes more sense when you realize that they already have their own huge radioactive disposal problem, and the marginal cost of a little bit more disposal is much less than what other, far more crowded European countries would be willing to pay to get it off their hands. They are the ninth largest country in the world with a population of 16 million, so there is significantly more room for waste disposal than in nearby Western Europe, which may be the region in the world most sensitive to waste disposal concerns of all kinds.
Just as in other environmental decisions, there are immediate and long-term goals that need to be balanced. Economic factors affect these decisions- an affluent community would rather have an expensive recycling facility, whereas an impoverished community would think it is nuts to spend big bucks on that and would go with the cheaper, traditional solution of a town dump, complete with perpetual tire-fire. These decisions are motivated by economic factors- given ample resources, most everyone would prefer a cleaner environment. But not everyone is willing to pay for it, so there ends up being disparity between decisions that affect the environment based upon local economic conditions.
Internationally, this comes as third-world countries which are happy to exchange cleaner air for lower-cost production which allows essential economic growth. Presumably, residents (or at least political representatives of residents) value the immediate economic boon over the long-term consequences. In the case of disposal, since there are already large waste-disposal issues of their own, the marginal cost of slightly larger waste-disposal issues apparently is outweighed by the massive price other countries would be willing to pay to get it off their hands. Unfortunately, decisions like these (trading in a long-term cost for a short-term benefit), are often political, and political decisions rarely favor long-term sustainable policies over short-term boons.
It's psychosomatic. You need a lobotomy. I'll get a saw.
Whoever modded the comment above Interesting or Insightful, shame on you. It is one of the funniest comment in the whole article!
The poster shows masterful command of the irony, satire and sarcasm.
In his first phrases he introduces us to the problem and to the ironical solution: "We have problem, the solution is to ship it somewhere else" (he is clearly aware that any of us here in Slashdot, bright sons and daughters of the information revolution, knows that in a closed system there is no somewhere else - he knows that when the king ships Hamlet to England the Bard is just using a dramatic device to make the play last a little bit longer).
Then he goes all the way to fine sarcasm: "The peasants over there will be HAPPY to have our junk" (we all know too that no one will be happy with heavy metal poisoning the drinking water and the soil for centuries - less obvious but still in context is the fact that the peasants over there may be poor but they are not stupid).
The he insults the reader calling him/her a no-good WTO anarchist - imagine interfering with such an act of christian charity. And making room for more laughs, he states that our poisonous junk is the mean of existence (albeit short) of someone else.
If I had to criticise something in the post, I would say he stopped too soon. He leaves untouched the whole matter of sending our nuclear waste to the same peasants, maybe telling showing them how to make fake jewelery that glows in the dark - wouldn't that be hilarious?
All things considered, the moderators lost a precious opportunity to give the poster his highly deserved Funny points. A real shame.
Yes, everyone can make intelligent choices within the confines of their scope of action. But what forces set the boundaries on their scope of possible action?
Curtains for windows?
...whether the software can be separated from the hardware depends on the licensing. On eBay you now have to get an old drive or motherboard in order to buy bundled stuff like DOS. Think of it as a crippled license.
:) Er, seriously, I would never violate a MS license, nor counsel you to do so, so MS lurkers -- go sue someone else....
However, if you destroy the old machine, you ought to be able to use the software elsewhere, on one machine. But who knows what wacky terms might be in your license?
As a practical matter you're not going to get caught. Just don't tell anyone....
P.S. Don't forget to swing by the store to tell that Dell salesperson what he can do with your old CPU. Dude! Get a Dell! My ass.
Ok, this is the THIRD TIME I've seen this comment posted on Slashdot. It's probably been posted more often than that. It is funny, in a way, but please at least update it.
Have a read on Vancouver Indymedia...
These organizations spread disinformation and hysteria, with the real intent of 1) stopping profitable business or 2) finding a high-leverage segment of the economy to burden with special taxes and fees. Why? To support their Marxian ideal of redistribution of income.
Most could not care less about the actual ecological effects. They want instead to make people living within a successful economic system, feel guilty that people living within a murderous and failing economic system can only make $0.17/hour.
A CRT screen contains phosphors, not "phosphorus". The U.S. Navy lists phosphorus as "highly toxic". Indeed - elemental phosphorus is nasty, but without phosphorus as phosphate, our metabolism would cease instantly. The confusion of the two words is either inexcusably ignorant, or deliberately fraudulent.
These people are loudmouth liars - they don't care whether they get ANYTHING correct, as long as they can gain more control.
Color CRT screen phosphors have no significant quantity of phosphorus in them. They contain Yttrium, Europium, Vanadium, Zinc, Sulfur, Silver, Copper, Gold, Aluminum, and Oxygen.
Some phosphors in older or specialized CRTs did contain Cadmium, which is toxic. Of course gazillions of tons of Cadmium go onto steel as corrosion inhibiting coatings, and Cadmium is fundamental to NiCd rechargeable batteries.
It is difficult to believe that the lead bound up in the leaded glass in CRTs is anything other than less hazardous than the elemental and exposed lead in solder in nearly every electronic device ever manufactured.
These shrill fraudulent twerps, leveraged through criminally ignorant, malicious, or ideologically aligned lawyers and regulators, managed, nonetheless, to make it impossible to simply throw away an old TV set or CRT monitor in California.
In the meantime, many of them are almost certainly hypocritically driving giant gas-sucking SUVs.
Oh, please. I don't know enough about early US history, but I certainly know enough about early Australian history to be able to tell that in Australia's case that's complete and utter crap.
Australia basically remained a prison colony until one British officer figured out that Australia was a damn good place to raise sheep and grow high-quality wool. The next big discovery was that there was a crapload of gold in various parts of Australia, which brought in a huge wave of immigrants. Many of those went into farming after the initial gold boom ended.
Australia's exports are still concentrated around agriculture and mining. The latest boom export industry? Wine. The biggest issue in negotiations on a free trade deal with the US? US agricultural protectionism. Trust me, agricultural exports are *vital* to Australia.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Its too bad the Merc was too busy spreading the bad news to spread a little good news as well.
Alameda Country Computer Resource Center is an excellent program, about 30 minutes from the Mercury's office, recycles and reuses, and installs Linux on much of what passes through their doors, and ships what they can't use to a special facility in Canada where it is smelted for valuable ores. (and no it doesn't get dumped in Canada, they have stricter laws about that kind of thing then we do)
Also they only charge $10 for computer drop off not $30, and accept a number of items for free. They publish a schedule of fees on their website.
The CBC TV investigative consumer news show Marketplace did a story on high-tech trash earlier this year.
They talked to Seattle's Basel Action Network, which made one of the earliest documentary videos of a cluster of villages in Guiyu, China, where 100,000 people live and work in what is essentially a giant computer dumping ground.
You can watch the report in Quicktime or in Real Video format.
Ultimately, it all goes back to the principle that "matter is neither created nor destroyed". There's a fixed amount on this planet, and all we can do is move it around and convert it from one form to another.
If it's profitable for parties here and in China for us to transfer some of this matter to their land mass, then that's where you can expect much of it to go.
Back in the days of the industrial revolution, the US wasn't exactly using clean methods of power generation and manufacturing, either. We had cities full of black smog and soot, and probably shortened the life spans of quite a few citizens working in those conditions at the time.
Nonetheless, those same cities seem to be much cleaner today. The black soot wasn't permanent. Perhaps more importantly, the things we learned about manufacturing and technology in that area allowed much progress that still benefits people today.
These environmental concerns always turn out to be "mind games", ultimately. Did the computer help accomplish enough "good" for society while it was in use to justify the pollution it will cause when it's melted down as scrap? What if it was used to teach thousands of college students, or by a charity that helps many people in dire need of assistance? What about energy saved by using newer, more efficient technology instead of continuing to use outdated and power-hungry systems (like old mainframes)?
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
I'd always wondered why a CRT display, most of which is filled with nothing at all, is so heavy. But I'm intrigued as to why recycling monitors can't pay for itself. 4lb of lead and quite a lot of copper must be worth something. OK, recycling the PCBs might not be such a good deal, but isn't it possible to set one off against the other? Does anyone have figures on how much the various bits of a dead monitor are worth?
Virtually serving coffee
According to the article, making a single computer chip takes a lot of chemicals (including hydrogen fluoride), and a lot of fossile fuel, making the process an incredible resource hog for what we get out of it.
There isn't much in the article about what happens to all the chemicals used though (i.e. how they're disposed of, if they're reclaimed/recycled).
"For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and Long Words Bother Me"
Well - If you live in the uk, and have old computer gear - with the exception of CRT's I can use it. Rip it to peices and use teh components to build robots.
Especially BEAM robots.
Of course the cases are then usable in the scrapheap for larger projects. Anyone here watch scrapheap challenge?
There are people I know to whom anything above a 100mhz p1 with 12mb is an upgrade....
Also you should check how much even older gear sells for on ebay. Theres always another use for stuff if you look hard enough.... I agree that one way or another, the manufacturer, and the consumer should share the cost and responsibility of recylcling the stuff.
OrionRobots.co.uk - Robots From sol
Agree. I'd just like to point out that the same thing occurs with cars, yet no one cries about the "toxic chemicals" that are in them. In fact, this is pretty much the M.O. for the "developed" nations: constantly upgrade your crap and pass on your hand-me-downs to the rest of the world. Anyone who's taken even a basic economics class can see that it doesn't add up.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"