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When Theaters Make Ticket Mistakes?
justzisguy asks: "During the third week in November I purchased 'Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers' tickets for the opening show at a local theatre. The kiosk I was using said 18 Dec. 12:00 AM as the time of the showing. I decided to purchase four, which came out to be a very reasonable $5.50 (US) each. I found out today that my tickets are actually for the noon showing (12:00 PM) even though the tickets are printed as a midnight showing, caused by a glitch in the computers. I have a final that conflicts with me seeing it at noon, so it is essentially midnight or nothing. I went to discuss the matter with management and they referred me to their 'no refunds or exchanges' policy and showed me a sign which has now been posted on the kiosk that explains that 12:00 PM tickets are really for 12:00 AM. I really don't want to purchase four new tickets at an additional $3.25 each. So here's my question: What is the theatre's obligation to honor these tickets?" While I'm sure the submittor would appreciate suggestions on how he can get the theater in question to live up to its obligations, there is a larger issue at stake here you should think about. What should one do when they find themselves in this situation with other commercial entities?
But instead of editorializing my opinions, on this matter in-article, I'm placing them here, instead...
When a commercial entity makes a mistake, I believe that it falls on them to correct it via the most simple and expedient method available. A "No refunds or exchanges" policy shouldn't affect this simple rule since it was the commercial entity itself that made the mistake.
However, in reality things are much different, and hence, consumers are put at risk every time money changes hands. Why should such policies be legal even though it wasn't the consumers fault. Shouldn't the entity accepting the money have some form of obligation to the person paying them to get the service they intended?
Now, I can see the problems with changing shows like this (the show in question is T-16h:12m and counting, as I type this), but there are bound to be other folks who are in the same boat, and I feel that the theater should at least make a token effort to see how many people got screwed in this manner and whether trades between them would work. If they don't refunds should be provided for those who can't attend the time the theater imposed on them (not their tickets since the tickets state the right time!).
Of course, there is always the option of trying to sneak in using the existing ticket, but why should consumers resort to subterfuge to get what they intended to in the first place.
This, quite frankly, is Capitalism Gone Wrong, and I don't think there are any ready solutions, although I would be interested in hearing how the rest of you think.
Call the corporate offices and explain to them your vast disappointment in the lack of responsibility of the management of the theater. Explain to them that there are several theater chains that you can patronize and that, while this is your favorite movie-haus, you just can't patronize a business that feels it must make its patrons pay for their mistakes.
Also explain to them that the sign was placed after you bought your tickets. Be sure to let them know that, as somebody who really stands for personal responsibility, you wouldn't have brought this up had the sign been posted earlier.
Be sure to stress that you see several movies a year, sometimes up to two a month. Tell this story to your friends and let the management know that you're posting your experiences on a large forum that recieves millions of hits a day. You're going to post a follow-up so that the consumers you interact with on this forum (here) can see whether or not this is a theater they'd like to patronize.
Finally, tell us the theater company, the location and -- this part is really important -- what happens when you call them.
If they come back and say, "Tough shit," I'll stop my patronage right now.
Good luck!
There's so little difference between politics and jihad lately...
You must attend one of the showings, either one really although both would be good, accompanied by several boxes of live mice (I advise calling pet stores and getting snake food). Any types of insects you can collect are also good. Consider stink bombs, and recruit friends.
Another option is to get a number of those small "sampler" bottles of vodka and bribe the attendance of a number of homeless people, and hand out more vodka in the movie. I prefer mice because they are cheaper and less likely to stab you for the rest of the vodka.
Now that that's out of my system...
:)
As a matter of law, the theater is wrong. They can't later stick on the sign saying, "By the way, at this theter night means day." Even with the sign I think they'd be dancing on the edge of fraud. Mention this word to them, "fraud." You were induced to buy something that is worthless to you by their false representations. The only wrinkle is the discount price, which might theoretically have put you on notice, but I don't buy it.
As a practical matter, the amount involved is peanuts, which doesn't mean you aren't rightfully mad. It sounds like you explained things to them properly. Make sure you're talking to a real decisionmaker, as far up the chain as you can get. Write a letter even! Middle-lings sometimes like to assert their power unthinkingly.
The practical alternatives are not many. You could (1) picket; (2) badmouth them every chance you get; or (3) complain to the BBB and seek a settlement. I vote for #3.
Sympathies -- I hate being treated like that, as if their stupidity were my fault. (I wouldn't use that argument with them.
Problem solved.
Or argue with the manager, loudly, in the lobby, in front of lots of other people, untill he caves in and gives you a refund or exchange.
-73, de n1ywb
www.n1ywb.com
Time to switch to 24 hours time.
Thus they can put whatever letters they want on their tickets and it doesn't matter, because they said the "12:00" part and that was accurate.
I assume that you did because you bought it at a kiosk. You tried to address the situation with the theater, they didn't make it right, so the next step is to call up your credit card company. Tell them the story, and have them give you the procedure for disputing a charge. You'll probably have to write them a letter, but it should be pretty easy and painless.
Call Visa (or whomever) and ask for a charge-back. Tell them the theater refused to honor the tickets. They will refund your tickets. Just as importantly... Credit card merchants are evaluated on their chargebacks by Visa, et al. Too many (too high a ratio, or too many total) and they lose their merchant account. Once gone, it is virtually impossible to get back. Thus, MERCHANTS CARE ABOUT KEEPING CHARGEBACKS DOWN, which is one excellent incentive NOT to fuck your customers (at least those using cards). This mechanism is in place to protect people in similar situations... make use of it.
I should have thought of that! Argh! If the protection applies (there are some weird exclusions, like if you are away from home) then the credit card protection is a practical way to contest piddling sums. In effect, you pay a little bit for their help every time you use the card.
If dealing with the theater is beyond reason, act quickly with your CC issuer and get payment frozen pending resolution.
Good advice.
(He can still see the movie at midnight, but I recommend a non-Twilight Zone theater. Check for clocks running backwards, giant blinking eyes, that sort of thing.)
they are trying to screw you for their own convenience.
make a big noisy fuss right in the lobby at a time when there are lots of paying customers about. demand that they either refund your money or honour the tickets which you purchased in good faith. make sure everyone hears that the theater is not trustworthy.
don't make threats or swear a lot. you want the customers there to be sympathetic to you, so that the management looks bad to them, and you don't want to give them grounds to have you forcibly removed. don't let them lure you into some office out of public view; you want to give them bad publicity.
if you can't bring yourself to make a public fuss, then take the theater to small claims court for fraud. just suggesting that should make management decide that keeping your money isn't worth their time.
don't forget that they have cheated you. don't take it lying down.
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. -- A.E.
It's just a movie. Get over it and see it another day. I mean it's not Episode III for cris sakes.
I've hit Karma 50 and gotten a Score:5, Troll... I win!
at $3.25 a shot, im sure they are sold out.
im paying $5.50 a shot in Portland, or. consider yourself lucky.
-- Betting on the survival of the media industry is a serious risk. I advise investing elsewhere.
Let's put it this way. A reasonable person could misconstrue their "offer" therefore there is no obligation.
i never use those kiosks. i always go straight to the counter and ask a human for advance tix. here, I can actually get a student discount (if the theater has one), and check the tix right away and say "hey, these arent what i asked for..." Usually, they have a means with which to address it, like voiding that transaction and doing up a new one. Or at least, the person will feel guilty about screwing up and get it fixed for you.
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
Sounds like a perfect case for small claims court. You can submit a claim yourself and do not need a lawyer. You may have to wait a while to get a hearing scheduled but once that starts the whole thing is usually over in minutes. You should be able to get them to settle with you, because it will cost them more than 22$ in time just to show up and defend themselves.
Even if they do show up, having the printed tickets as evidence should give you an easy win.
Check out your local laws!
Skip the stupid final. What kind of geek are you?
www.HearMySoulSpeak.com
You mean you haven't already seen the movie on Kazaa?
j/k It is their error they should either have a movie at midnight or replace your tickets with another time. Putting up a sign after the fact is not a legal course of action for them, imho. It will protect them from people who purchase tickets after the sign was up but not when bought the tickets.
How you get those tickets I don't know. Hound them I guess or reschedule your final.
Honestly though can you really watch a 3 hour movie starting at midnight. Especially when you have a test to go to in 9 hours after the movie was finished. You apparently weren't to worried about the final to begin with.
Speaking from experience on both sides of the counter, the number one rule for "getting a refund" is to get angry. No venue wants an angry customer yelling in their lobby. On the other hand, quiet upset customers are perfectly acceptable. So don't be afraid to be loud and upset.
If I were in your shoes, I would
1) Show up at 11:30 PM - ignore the "12:00 midnight means noon" sign.
2) Get very loudly angry at the usher who says "there is no midnight showing." Start saying "I don't understand. I have tickets that say 12:00 midnight."
3) If the manager does not come over, ask the usher to get the manager.
4) Again, be loud and demand a refund. Say loudly things along the lines of "I have these tickets that say 12:00 AM. You're saying you don't have a film at this time. I want a refund for these worthless tickets." Be very upset. Refuse to be consoled.
I've used this technique when I've forgotten the credit card I used to purchase the tickets with. In both cases, the manager has told the usher to let me be seated.
You pay $3.25 for movie tickets? Where is this place? Outer Mongolia (no offense to the less developed economy of, or the peoples of, Outer Mongolia)? I'm playing that at least, it's the matinee price. For $3.50 a piece, I agree with another poster. Buy more of them ... that's what student loans are for. Or at least that's what I told myself when I bought my Quadra 840av.
I've worked way too much retail/serivce as a youth, so I've got a line on this one.
If the service/product you have been given is not up to par, or you have been cheated (our movie example is a great one), your first stop is the manager. If they are a good manager who is worth their pay they will take care of you, knowing that you are their paycheck.
If they are an idiot who is in retail/service management because they hung out too long and got promoted without merit you have to work a little. When they rebuff you, restate your position, and the importance of the issue to you as a continuing customer. If they still do not treat you properly, don't get mad and yell and scream. That makes you look like an irrational idiot. You want to make the manager look like an irrational idiot...
Go home. Look up another store in the chain/franchise. Call that store and ask for the manager. When you get the manager on the phone, tell them that you have a customer service issue where you were treated poorly and would like their help. Immediately let them know that it was not at their store but at a different location. This will take that manager off the defensive.
Then explain the situation, why you feel you were treated wrong, and how the manager responded when you went to them for help. Be sure to use that managers name. When you are finished telling them your story (and be brief, they have their own store to run) ask them if you can have a corporate customer serice number, and the store number for the other store if they can find it.
Usually the other manager will be more than happy to help you because you are not causing them a problem, or their store. They will tell you that you were treated wrong, how sorry they are, and then give you someone to call for further help. Heck, some of them will do it just to see their competetion for District Manager take a few knocks.
Now that you have the number to the real person you need, be sure to thank the manager who did help you, and tell them that all of your transactions with "STORE X" will be at their location from here out. They like that because it sounds like money in the bank. Then ask for their name/store # so you can tell the higher up's how well that manager did to help you despite not being a part of the problem.
Now, call the higher ups. Explain your situation. Be sure to tell them the name of the manager who screwed you, and the manager who helped you. Know what city each store/location is in. The store #'s if possible. Stay calm. From this point your case will be handled or escalated to someone who can handle it.
If you are feeling punitive, request that the store be audited. Most chains have 'secret shoppers' who go in and inspect things without identifying themselves. This can cause lots of troubles. Also give your area 'Weights & Measures' office a call. Tell them that the product they sold was not marked correctly (this was a BIG fine when I worked in California).
At the end of the day, if you can get someone at the corporate level, you will be taken care of, possibly given something extra for your inconvenience, and the manager in quesiton who did you wrong will have a note in their file that says "asshead to customer on xx/yy/20zz" which hurts their long time promotion status (don't feel guilty, jerks should not get promoted in a customer serivce industry).
Of course, if it's a mom & pop shop and not a chain/franchise, you are pretty much at their mercy. Slash their tires!
Grimwell - old, cranky, mean, obsessive
Where I live, tickets are about $9 apiece. I'd be REALLY pissed if they messed up my tickets. I'd really like to know if this is fandango or not, because they're the ones who handle online sales for my local theatres. ...and like everyone else has said, this guy should call his credit card company and get a refund.
Gabriel Ricard
When you sold you a "red" car, we actually meant "blue". See? We have a sign up that says "Red cars are actually blue". Sorry, no refunds or exchanges.
assert(birth_date<time-86400)
Every Clock I've seen that indicates AM or PM operates with 12 noon being PM and 12 midnight being AM. You don't call that standard?
This is where the Flaming Bag of Dog Poop system of justice is applicable.
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
Grow up, you Anonymous Coward. It's the principal of the thing. Yeah, maybe it's a little trivial for an "Ask Slashdot" but so what.
assert(birth_date<time-86400)
Burn it to the ground, laddie!
I also understand the tickets in question printed out with PM as midnight. That doesn't make that usage standard anymore than your (digital only!) clock example.
It seems to me, that justzisguy is the one that needs to grow up. The AC post was a bit over the edge but, the concept is on the mark.
Sounds like a perfect case for small claims court. You can submit a claim yourself and do not need a lawyer.
Please do all of us here at Slashdot a favor and don't just go to any small claims court -- go to The People's Court! Or any one of those televised court shows. And, for God's sake Man, wear a medevial costume in court! You're trying to impress the judge how badly you need to see this film! Nothing would say that better than dressing up like your favorite LotR character! Plus, it will make it more likely that your People's Court appearance will actually get aired!
Go for it! We're all counting on you!
GMD
watch this
He was planning to go to the midnight show, which isn't going to be over (including previews and ads) until close to 4 a.m., and he has a final exam at noon?
Hope it isn't an important final....
"One would assume you are proud of how you treat your customers, wouldn't you want others to hear what you have to say?"
Go to the theater, and ask to speak with the manager. Normally someone will get you him or her quickly.
Remember to always be polite and kind - you want them to think they are being good people
Tell the manager your story, as factually as possible. Tell him about the lack of the sign, and show him your tickets.
Tell him he can make a happy and loyal customer right now. If he refuses to honor/change the tickets:
* Tell him you will be writing a letter to
* Tell him you will be disputing the CC charge
* Tell him you will speaking with the Better Business Buereau in your area.
Companies really care about their CC ratings (chargebacks are expensive for them, and Visa gets awefully pissy to the merchent when they happen). They also care abotu BBB ratings. Alot. More than you might think.
Lastly, ask for the phone # of the managers supervisor. Everyone gets scared of people calling their managers.
12am is defined as the begining of a day. 12pm is defined as the middle of a day. in commerce, if not in nit-picking astronomy, that is what they mean.
When confronted with this ambiguous situation I have always taken PM to imply night and AM to imply day (yes, I know that's not really what they mean).
But don't take my word for it, a court in the US found in favor of a guy who got a parking ticket based on one of these ambiguous pseudo-times on the nearby no-parking sign. It was about five years ago, I think. Can't remember more details.
Hope the subject line doesn't make this sound like a fame. It was not meant that way.
Move on. There's nothing to see here.
Don't bother with the manager on duty, who probably has just enough authority to wipe his own ass. Write to the VP of operations or customer relations (big mega-chain), or general manager or president (regional / local chain).
The strategy is to make the reader believe that his theaters are about to get a liberal dose of bad PR, which no company in a highly-competitive service industry will risk. The tactic is to exhibit class, wit, and politeness to a fault (Patrick Stewart mode), in the course of making it explicitly clear that the company has done you wrong and owes you big-time for this affront. Subtle digs at the competence, intelligence, ancestry, etc. of staff and management are desirable as long as the aforementioned class, etc. is maintained.
Explain the circumstances in detail. State that the purchase of a theater ticket constitutes a contract (which it does), which is rendered no less valid or binding by their kiosk programmers' inability to distinguish noon from midnight, or by his staff's attempt to turn night into day with a disclaimer scrawled on a piece of cardboard (it probably was.) Mention the BBB, local TV news operations that love consumer-advocacy issues like this, the presence of a half-dozen competing theaters in the area (there usually are), etc. Close out by declaring that, while they have every right to maintain their no-refunds-etc. policy, your policy is to avoid like the plague businesses that rip people off through the biz's own incompetence, and you intend to apply same from this point forward unless reparations are forthcoming.
Oh, and, as an aside (especially if this is a national chain), note that you have already mentioned this incident on one of the Internet's most popular and respected tech forums, and that several hundred thousand avid movie-goers are interested in the outcome.
I suspect you won't have to wait long for an answer. A friend's S.O. wrote such a letter addressing a similar situation (dual literature / psych major; well-qualified to write complaint letters!) and ended up with a dozen passes, a letter of apology from the theater manager, and flowers!
You may or may not get (or want) flowers, but you'll probably be comped pretty well for your trouble. Not to mention the satisfaction of being able to redeem a bunch of freebies to the manager you know (and he probably suspects) was thoroughly bitch-slapped by his bosses at your instigation not long before.
Life is like surrealism: if you have to have it explained to you, you can't afford it.
See Subject.
Also give your area 'Weights & Measures' office a call.
Is this sort of thing in their jurisdiction? If so, then that's a really good idea.
In my experience, these guys have a lot of power, precisely because merchants have been pulling this sort of scam for centuries.
I found out today that my tickets are actually for the noon showing (12:00 PM) even though the tickets are printed as a midnight showing, caused by a glitch in the computers. I have a final that conflicts with me seeing it at noon, so it is essentially midnight or nothing. I went to discuss the matter with management and they referred me to their 'no refunds or exchanges' policy and showed me a sign which has now been posted on the kiosk that explains that 12:00 PM tickets are really for 12:00 AM.
So? You don't have a 12:00 PM ticket, do you? Or, if you do, then you can see the movie at 12:00 AM, like you want. Maybe you're making a big deal over nothing and you weren't clear enough when you talked to the manager. Take the shit out of your mouth and try again, there's probably a new manager there by now anyway.
I think the theater is sleazy - putting up that sign is an admission that they know their tickets are causing confusion - but it sounds like you were offered a reasonable choice: either use the noon tickets puchased at matinee prices, or pay the difference for the midnight showing and go to it.
Now, if they said you had to pay $8+/ticket for a second set of tickets, instead of just the $3+/ticket or so difference, that would be a different matter. But you can't reasonably expect them to offer the midnight show at matinee prices - even if you're an honest victim, you know there are many people who would deliberately exploit this policy.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
They actually made it so you cannot make your exam, although you really made an effort to help them correct their mistake.
Therefore, sue them for your damages:
an extra year in college (about 30000 dollars?)
income you will miss (the difference in salary between your student job and a regular job, another 30000 dollars). Tell them you will discuss terms, and maybe a settlement, but only when they come with a reasonable proposition.
the pun is mightier than the sword
I am dead serious here. Here in CA, it will cost $50 up front (court plus serving the summons) but you get it all back if you win. No doubt at all you will win if they did not have the sign up when you bought the tickets, so you WILL recover the money. Takes a couple of months.
But here's the reason you do this. As a college student, you might miss a class or two going to court, but they have to send someone in management, whose time is real money. They would be fools to actually show up in court, then lose, and have to pay all the court costs.
Make SURE they understand you WILL take them to small claims cxourt if they do not cough up the money, and that once filed, you WILL NOT settle for less than tickets + court costs.
Infuriate left and right
Crap like this really pisses me off: "We've got your money, now go screw yourself, sucker, because we can afford more lawyers than you can."
/.ers calling both the local theater and the national offices to enquire why they can't tell day from night, and more importantly, why they can't treat their customers right when they're fucked up.
So post the theater's name! Post the name of the chain!
And post a phone number for each, for the local theater and for the corporate office.
Name names! And give the phone numbers!
Let these slimy bastards realize, along with your $5.50 (or whatever) a public relations cost all out of proportion to their profit from screwing you.
Let them deal with dozens -- no hundreds -- of
I'm sick and tired of businesses feeling they can screw their customers with impunity. Let's give these smug bastards a slashback.
Have you, gentle reader, been screwed by some smug business? Of course you have. Now's your chance to strike back. Help this guy out, and get some of your dignity back at the same time!
Let them know you won't take it anymore!
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
I'm surprised at the little /. attention paid to the aspect of fraud. This is a criminal offense as well as a civil one. Granted, you're not likely to find a lot of sympathy at your local District Attorney's office (unless you find a lawyer who's also a LOTR fan). You have been defrauded, and even if the theatre agreed to exchange your tickets, the passage of time between the originally promised showing time and whenever the showing would be for a replacement ticket means you were still injured.
If you're looking for something to do during your break, I'd visit the DA or police and ask to file a criminal complaint. Mention the number of other prospective people that could have been scammed. This is a business, which means they have to have a business license. Send a copy of your criminal complaint to whoever registers businesses (usually the Secretary of State for your state) and whoever issues business licenses (usually the municipal government). Send a copy to the theatre district office (if they are a chain).
The suggestion to contact the Weights and Measures certification folks is a good one as well. Look for their sticker on the butcher's scales at a grocery or the gasonline pump next time you fill up if you can't find them any other way.
false advertising or fraud? I wouldn't be hasty to threaten them, and lots of other people are posting good alternatives on what action to take but this behavior seems clearly illegal. Many auction houses sell items "as is," meaning no refund and they get lots of telephone bids from people who rely on their description of the item. But when these auction houses clearly screw up on a simple description, many would refund the customer, (ie selling a computer monitor as a TV, a chevy as a ford, whatever) simply because they don't want to lose customers. I would think this would apply even more to the movies house, they sold you tickets for midnight (and not 'as is'), you, the customer, are not obliged to know about their internal screw-ups or quirks. They have to give you what you paid for, or refund the money. Frankly, I think the manager you talked to must have been a dick. Some movie I watch at the local Regal Cinema, during an afternoon matinee, the projector went kaput the last twenty minutes of the movie. What did the manager do? He gave the entire audience free run of the theatre (all the movies you can watch) for the rest of the night. And guess what? I can choose between 5 different theatres, where do I always go, Regal Cinema.
But the chances of that happening in the US are about the same as adopting the metric system anytime soon. Using 24-hour time (not "military" time as some call it in the US--the day doesn't have 2400 hours, plus skipping the delimiter tends to imply that the minutes are base 10) is simple, intuitive and unambiguous. It also makes calculating time differentials easier. Using 12-hour time leads to nothing but confusion and is counter-intuitive anyway: you go 9am, 10am, 11am, and then suddenly to 12pm. From a purely mathematical point of view it's messing up continuity.
I didn't notice anybody else commenting on this fact so I thought that I would let you know.
WRT the article, in certain situations, your ticket is a binding legal contract and if that contract says *12:00AM*, then well you get let in at 12:00AM.
Agreed. Call your credit card company. That should do the trick. If that doesn't work call the head office of the chain. Be polite, civil and firm. They misprinted tickets you should get your money back. Period. Also I can't believe the theater chain in question wasn't posted here. POST THE CHAIN HERE!!!! The /. community will certainly get a response, if you don't.
-Sean
And what're you gonna do? Bust into my house with tear-gas grenades and force it on me? Chrono-fascist.
He's bitching because they aren't honoring the matinee price for a midnight showing - they obviously were willing to take the extra $3.25 to exchange his ticket as he plainly implies. He's just trying to take advantage and complaining when they refuse to go along.
Let's suppose then that you spent, say, two hours total on this (thinking about submitting, wording it, etc). That's comes out to about $120, based on your hourly rate.
So, during all this time, you made enough money to buy 36 tickets.
My advice? Invite 32 of your close friends and immediate family (and of course include the other three people you were buying tickets for in the first place), buy them tickets, and have them chip in $13 for soda and popcorn. That should come out to about $0.40 per person.
There, problem solved. Next!
paraphrased:
eh, you want to know how to get a free movie, eh? you need a jar of moths, like this, and wait until the end of the movie, when you know what's gonna happen, eh... Then you open the jar, eh. All the moths will swarm around the projector light, and you start demanding that da' hosers who run the place give you a refund because the moths ruined the movie, eh...
can anyone else do a better job remembering that scene than I did?
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
Regardless of the pedantry, it was the cinema that printed 'AM'. If they're going to use ambiguous terms then they're going to have to accept the most logical way to interpret them, which is with "12 AM" being midnight; it wouldn't make sense to assume midnight as "12 PM", because "12.01" is clearly "AM".
Besides, using AM for midnight is a universally accepted standard. The poster is trolling for an argument.
And another point occurs: even if with formal logic "12 PM" midday was incorrect (which it isn't: midday acutally occurs instantaneously between 1159 and 1200), midnight, being defined as the beginning of the day, is indeed ante-meridian.
First of all, why is this trivial $13 dispute "stuff that matters??" Where is the adult supervision at Slashdot?
IAAL. You could take them to small claims court, but your time is valuable. I personally have a Dispute Threshold of $100. Any disputes less than that, I absorb my loss for the sake of economy. I encourage all readers to have and abide by a Dispute Threshold for the sake of your sanity.
If you are a homeless person or a college student, you may place a lesser value on your time and energy than I do, which is OK. If your Dispute Threshold is $12.99 or less, by all means spend the $50 and a day of your time and take them to court. Maybe you will learn something.
This seems to be prevalent in today's society. Everyone (yes, I know that's a gross generalization, but I don't see many instances to contradict it) seems to be looking for a way out of taking responsibility for his or her actions. Companies have teams of lawyers that spend all day looking for loopholes that they can worm through or bypasses around the problems they create rather than settle for an ethical/honorable solution. I've heard a number of people tell me that 'that's just business' but I disagree. These businesses are made up of people and those people set the standards of how the company responds to these situations. Yes, there are situations where the 'higher ups' are setting the standards and the rest of the employees are forced to follow along and no matter what you or I or anyone else does to improve ourselves, we will still find these situations. But as I see it, and this opinion may come from the glasses I'm wearing, you can't regulate ethics, and honorability. All we can do is regulate ourselves, and question whether or not we would enjoy being treated the way we are treating others. These are things, that I was taught while growing up, but I fear at this point that there are very few who understand this concept, and even fewer that are teaching their offspring these lessons.
Just look at some of the things that have happened over the past few years. One example is Ford and Firestone who got into a pissing match about who was responsible for the Explorer rollover problem. Rather than solving the problem, and owning up to any mistakes, they started pointing fingers. While I will grant you that I think there was a problem with the tires, I don't generally think I should have to worry about my vehicle being so unstable that it's going to flip if I have a blowout.
So, once again, we have to regulate ourselves, and remember that the golden rule in general is 'Do unto others as the would have done to you.' NOT 'do unto others before they do unto you.' Oh, yeah, and the golden rule really does apply to everyone, not just Christians even though I find very few follow it, including Christians.
'And all the monkeys aren't in the zoo Every day you meet quite a few...'
This would probably work better in combination with other approaches mentioned here than by itself, but it can be it can be quite effective if delivered with confidence.
If you decide to talk to someone at the theater and you aren't getting anywhere, ask them for their name. You could write it down to make sure they have time to reflect what you are doing (for bonus points: ask how they spell it). This can be quite intimidating as it somehow makes the other person feel as though he is your focus, rather than his employer. If it doesn't shake them, or they ask why you want it, casually say something about lawsuit and fraud, as though it was not a big deal for you to go to court. Give it a moment to sink in. You could imply that they still have a few minutes to rectify the situation.
If it looks like they are about to cave in, say that giving you free tickets or something is a lot easier for them personally, as it comes out of the theater's pockets and does not cost the person anything. If you go to court it is a major inconvenience for them getting to the court house for several hours, even if they are only called as witnesses.
This post is free (as in cheese in a mousetrap).
Just go to the midnight show and use the tickets anyway. What's the chance that the guy ripping the tickets will even notice?
You'll notice that 12:01 AM shows up in a lot of contracts and such, either to dispell uncertainty or because people aren't sure when the next half of the day starts.
... of course you always look and feel silly reporting that you've been undercharged ... charge me more, dammit!).
I have to admit I have trouble telling 12:01 AM from 12:01 PM, so maybe the 24 hour clock would help. But I'm American and no more likely to give up 12-hour time as to surrender the three-teaspoons-to-a-tablespoon nuttiness. This time thing doesn't come up too often, though, except with this person confusing the kiddie matinee with the night owl showing -- and quite pleased to pocket the surprise discount (technically that's wrongful, too, if he/she had any awareness that the problem was probably an error
Standing up for your rights is absolutely not taking advantage.
If I pay $5 for a ticket at one time, and they take my money, then that is that. We have made a deal, and both sides are morally obligated to honour it. If they didn't like it, they were free to decline my money.
If they later go back on the deal, then they are morally (and almost certainly legally) obliged to honour their original side of the bargain, or to offer suitable compensation. That might mean putting on an extra showing at the time indicated, or at least providing a full refund (and, if they're smart, complimentary tickets to another showing later on by way of apology), or otherwise making it up to their customers in some reasonable way.
Now, if it was a legitimate screw-up that they can't correct with, say, an extra showing, and if everyone has been offered a full refund and an apology, I don't think you can really complain much beyond that. If you don't like it, vote with your wallet. But the details aren't clear from the original story, and it certainly sounds like the theatre is pulling a fast one the way it's phrased.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
What next? How do I return an ugly sweater to Target? I bought a Big Mac and didn't get cheese on it? Grow up--you're wasting everyone's time with petty personal problems and eliciting a lot of armchair legal opinions from people who don't know what they're talking about.
All you gotta do is exchange one letter.
The time 12AM is unambiguous to anyone(in the USA at least) that knows how to tell time. Are we going to have to start issuing "clock licenses" now?
EDICT: No one may wear a watch or any other timepiece in public unless thay are 12(that's one more than 11, and 1 less than 13 in case you haven't passed your numbers class) years old or older and have passed a clock reader's ed class. 13 year olds may wear watches and tell time in public only while accompanied by an adult that has a current, up to date, and unqualified clock license. Furthermore if you don't have a clock license, you are not allowed to tell the time, or refer to specific times in public, nor enter in to any contractual agreements where time is a factor.
You think "Noon" is the way to clarify things? Well, "12 noon" is actually self contradictory most days. Since noon is defined as midday, or the time when the sun crosses the local meridian, on most days, the time "12 noon" doesn't exist. It never happens. 12 o'clock happens whenever the clock says it does, noon happens when the sun crosses the meridian.
What happens at "12 midnight" is left as an exercise.
Long ago a proper 24 hour clock was invented; and for good reason those that need to know the time, mostly to synchronize with others, started using it exclusively.
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.
- W. Wriston, former Citibank CEO
Wasn't this on FOX last Thursday, right after "When Planes Fall Down"?
"Tomorrow's forecast: a few sprinkles of genius with a chance of doom!" - Stewie Griffin
I appreciate that this was modded Funny, but there's a serious side to it.
Around the time I finished my degree, I went into my bank, looking to take out a loan so I could buy a car to get to my new job and put down the deposit to rent a place. I wasn't asking for a vast sum of money, and I had a contract in my hand from my future employer that would provide a reasonable guarantee of my ability to repay what I was asking for.
I was told that, while the person I spoke to understood my situation, the computer would automatically reject any application for a loan while I was still a student. Further, if he even tried just to see, it would damage my credit record, as a "loan denied" tag would get stuck against my name for years.
So, I thanked him for his time, and left. Two hours later I returned, having opened an account with an alternative bank who were more than happy to match or better every term I had with my existing accounts, credit card, etc. and were also prepared to offer me a small loan to get started with my working life.
I walked up to the front desk, and just about loud enough for the other few dozen people in the branch to overhear, I said that I'd like to withdraw the balance on both of my accounts, clear the credit card and then close all three, please. "Oh, dear," the lady there said. "Is there anything we can do to make you change your mind?"
Doubleplusooops. :-)
Guess what happened for the next five minutes, in front of a room full of customers... Actually, make that ex-customers. Two other people, presumably in a similar position to my own, promptly moved to the queue behind me and closed their own accounts as I left.
Sometimes, the only way to make a commercial entity see sense is to vote with your wallet. Other times, bad PR is far more effective. Either way, it pays to stand up for yourself using language they understand. Make sure you give word-of-mouth credit and customer loyalty to the good places as well, and between the two, you'll find your life gets far easier. :-)
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Scalp the tickets and go study. You cant see a movie that ends at 3 in the morning before a final the next day, you'll sleep right through your test. : )
Actually, the theater company and you are both in the wrong, them for the computer glitch, and you for trying to benifit from it in two ways. You wanted midnight showing tickets, pay the midnight showing price. Your price was for a noon showing. It seems like the best solution would be to pay the evening price, and be happy that you got tickets for the midnight showing. Would you not have bought them if they had been the $8.75 origninally? I realize that a smart theater manager would let the price slide, but sometimes humans are short sighted.
Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
Works great in person. On a phone, you'll probably find everyone in the call centre has "supervisor" in their job title, so they can shift you around to one of their equally powerless colleagues as a first move. Always get the name and job title of the person you speak to, and ask a black-and-white question about whether they have more power to help you than the last person you spoke to.
One of the funniest experiences I ever had was when a phone company, who had apparently gotten a contract to supply hundreds of student rooms but forgotten to hire the manpower to install it all, gave us the "call centre tennis" treatment. Someone looked up the (publicly available) contact details of their managing director, and called him at home at 9pm on a Saturday night to complain.
By 10pm we had two vans full of engineers out to install the phones for everyone in the block whose order was running late.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Let me get this straight. So you have a 12 PM ticket, and the sign tells you it's really for 12 AM, which is what you wanted in the first place. Or did you say that backwards?
Win dain a lotica, en vai tu ri silota
The Better Business Bureau is certainly not worthless in my experience.
I was stiffed on about $4.00 worth of candles from a well-known candle reatiler when the clerk forgot to put them in my bag as I paid for them. Customer service reps told me they could give me a replacement if I sent in my receipt. Now since it was such a small amount of money involved, I had thrown the receipt out and they said a replacement could not be made without it. They could never answer my question as to how me producing a receipt for them would prove that the clerk made the mistake. After all, couldn't I just make up a story about not getting my merchandise and then get double what I paid for, just by showing them a recipt?
Now I know someone is going to say it was my fault for not keeping the receipt, and the company can't just hand over free merchandise to anyone who walks in and claims they were stiffed. That's true, but I am the customer, and I am under no obligation to keep my receipt just in case they screw up. Why should their mistake cost me money? And who goes through all this trouble for $4.00 worth of merchandise anyways?
After being given the shaft I filled out a report on bbb.org one day when I was bored at work. I didn't expect much out of it, but a month or so later I got a check from the company in question for $4.00! I wasn't worried about the money, but the principle of it got me more mad than anything.
It's a shame that they lost a customer for life over such a small amount of money. I could be missing a Whopper at the Burger King drive through and get a replacement with no problem because most companies understand that people treated fairly usually will not try to screw the company in return.
That's the price for premiere tickets in Sweden. 100 SEK for the ticket, and 20 SEK just for the booking service. 120 SEK, and 9 SEK/USD. That's 13.33 USD. Of course, we get it at least 6 hours earlier, though :)
Attention programmers,
Unless you have a really valid reason for using 12:00 AM when referring to midnight, you should really consider using 11:59 PM or 12:01 AM to relieve ambiguity and prevent confusion.
Yes, it stands to reason that if 12:01 AM means one minute after midnight that 12:00 AM would be midnight, but people are stupid and seem to think it means noon. Even if they do figure it out, they will wonder, "12:00 AM Dec 18, is that one minute before 12:01 AM on Dec 18, or one minute after 11:59 PM on Dec 18?"
An even better solution is to adopt 24-hour time: use 0000 for midnight and 2359 for the last minute of the day. That way, people can grumble about having to learn to tell (metric?) time all over again.
Once and for all, let it be known that 12:00 AM, midnight, 0000 hours, is the first minute, the beginning of the day, not the end!!! Scream it from the mountaintops! Let it descend to the plain! May it echo across the valleys througout the land!
It's really stupid, when you think about it, to have the first hour of the day be named twelve. "The first shall be last and the last shall be first."
Give me my freedom, and I'll take care of my own security, thank you.
there is always the option of trying to sneak in using the existing ticket
With the right nib pen, a P can quite easily become an A... Given the right font.
Smoke em.
Keep your packets off my GNU/Girlfriend!
The fact of the matter is the theater people have the power to do quite a bit for you, and (in general practice), they realize just how valueless an additional screening of a post-first-weekend release can be. You won't get a midnight showing for opening night... they can't do that, and equally importantly that has a lot of financial value to them... Those tickets could probably be scalped for $500 dollars. However, they would probably be willing to compromise on a later ticket for that movie, and a ticket to a non-first run.
.99c. This is not programming, this is not a system, these are people. Some of these people have forgotten that they aren't programming, but most of them relish the little power which they wield... It's their prescious. Go back and talk to the manager, and simply don't walk away until a compromise has been forged.
They can... It all depends upon the emotional state of the person you are talking to. Having been on both sides similar equations, DON'T argue this in front of other patrons. You need them to cave in, realizing that it is easier to give in to your reasonable request than to continue to fight it. If they are in front of a group of people they are far less likely to A: be reasonable and B: show weakness. You want them to nod and go "OK, fine. here."
The fact of the matter is that the person behind the counter has a LOT of leeway in any industry. A friend went into a Starbucks and decreed that they liked the marble cake but that it should be one dollar. The guy at the counter said "OK," and made it
Or show up to the Midnight showing with your 12:00 AM tickets. The person taking tickets will usually be more reasonable than the manager. Or more negligent. Either way works for you.
-C
This Sig is a mnemonic device designed to allow you to recognize this author in the future.
There aren't any jobs out there so bag the final and get the super extreme jumbo large bucket 'O corn and enjoy the movie.
0. lightening took out our modem
1. 'bought a Data / FAX / Voice modem
at 'IT Warehouse' (last sale of Sat)
2. at home, found no jacks for headset/mic
(remaining from previous modem)
3. 'took new modem back to return it (next
business day, ie the following Mon)
4. IT Warehouse refuses to accept return
of product, saying that modem requires
a soundcard for Voice functions (ie
soundcard has jacks for headset & mic)
5. I show them modem box's System Require-
ments list (in which soundcard NOT listed)
6. IT Warehouse still refuses to accept
return of product for refund; clerk
makes insulting comment at end of
visit to shop
7. matter taken to Dep't of Consumer &
Business Affairs for assistance
8. (matter still pending)
---
How many person-hours have to be spent
when a business acts like this?
Compare to OfficeWorks (with a 30-day,
no-questions-asked refund policy) to
see how different it can be.
IT Warehouse has lots of stores, all
over Australia, so we're not talking
about a sinking mom&pop computer shop
Perhaps the modem's maker should be
given a chance to clear this up, in
a more satisfactory manner...
After my refusing to exchange the tickets for the "real" midnight showing for an additional $3.25 each and convincing another manager today that it was in her best interest to honor these tickets as purchased using several of the ideas that my fellow /.'ers came up with, I am proud to say that I will be attending the premiere showing tonight. I never received an apology and she maintains that she is going way beyond the call of duty in her correcting what was a "computer's mistake" (blaming some poor German programmers). I still do not feel like she truly values my continued business and I will have to decide if I will continue to watch my movies there, but for now I'm going to tally this up as a victory.
Thank you so much for everyone's support! You guys are awesome!!!
One week later:
Watch not actually 24k.
Watch not actually gold.
Watch not actually Timex.
Watch not actually watch.
Sorry, no refunds or exchanges.
And 11:59 pm comes right before 12:00 pm. That is easy!
Much simpler.
Call Management at the theater (as others have said), attend another show and yell "fire," become gainfully employed by the theater (on weekends) and urinate on the popcorn, write your congressman, picket like a teamster, complain to everyone that will listen to you, including those on /. :)
call this manager's mother and tell her what he did,
sue the theater,
marry the manager's daughter and pop out a couple more sniveling piles of $hit,
call your credit card company and let them resolve it,
or just go and kill yourself. Yeah, that'll work.
I also used to think, until a few weeks ago, that "2:00am is midnight and 12:00pm is noon". Then someone told me that was wrong. I stubbornly insisted that was right.
You can guess how well that worked out...
I Googled for a while, and read a number of apparently authoritive sources. It appears that "common knowledge" I had was wrong, and the only correct description of those times is noon and midnight. "12 noon" and "12 midnight" are also correct, though the 12 adds no information.
If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
7. matter taken to Dep't of Consumer &
Business Affairs for assistance
8. (matter still pending)
UPDATE:
9. By some coincidence, the above Dep't
rang me a few minutes ago & said
that the shop is now prepared to
accept the return of the modem &
refund my $ in full.
(Of course, the cost of the Certified
Letter with Receipt of Delivery may
burden... unless I care to sue them
for compensation in the matter...)
---
Say, has anybody in SA had any similarly
disappointing dealings with IT Warehouse?
Another IT friend tells me he's seen a
number of articles in the Trade Press,
that warn the unknowing would-be buyer
to stay clear of them, and I'd like to
read some of these articles for myself.
(The Dep't of Consumer & Business Affairs
can't tell me about other complaints, ie
unless they've "named" the business...
which they haven't done in this case.)
Australia could -really- use a Better-
Business Bureau in every capital city!
Perhaps an off-shore web-site would do
the job, in lieu... No, wait! The re-
cent [Gutnick] case brought a decision
suggesting that one could be sued here
even if the material is published off-
shore.
Perhaps we need a Good Consumer Law -
a bit like the Good Sameritan Law - to
protect consumers, who want to share
their experiences with a business, and
help to preclude others from falling
into similar holes...
1).They made the mistake 2).Sign wasn't there when you bought 3).BBB (They hate it when you call and tell on 'em) 4).Make a huge embarrassing situation in the lobby. 5)Introduce them to your little friend, and his baseball bat. and fuhgetaboutit!
I entirely agree with Anonymous Brave Guy, that it's really tricky to get a real supervisor. But there is a way around it! Here's what I do when I get stuck and need a real supervisor.
1) If possible, get the name of the person you're talking with.
1) Hang up on the current person (politely or angrily, your choice.)
2) Make up a complaint/problem that can be easily resolved (ie, you want to check your mailing address, etc.)
3) Be very pleasant, and when the person helps you, say "You've been really great. You're such a change from the other people I've talked to. I really appreciate it. Do you have a supervisor or someone I can mention this to?"
4) You'll be transferred to a manager without fail.
Just go in at midnight and go sit down. If they try to stop you walk right past them. If they physically try to remove you then woo-hoo big lawsuit. It just means that you will enjoy the next movie more. The only option that they legally have would be to call the police. If the police do show up how are they going to explain that your ticket which has midnight prinited right on it is not valid at midnight. The theatre may even get a ticket for a false report and if any local media gets wind of the whole fiasco then guess what, next time you go there will be a brand new manager. I would love to be in your position here because you can only win. PLease just go and watch the fun if they try to call the police. Basically the manager is just stupid because by law he has to honor those tickets because the time is printed on them. I say go and walk right in. Problem solved.
There is probably a state law on the books that covers such things. It may even be under a Bait and Switch or untruthful advertising law.
:)
You could have always shown up right before the theatre closed and demanded they show the movie showing your perfectly legally ticket, then demand a handsome compensation when they won't show it, like 16 tickets to a later show that you could go to with 15 friends
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
Guessing that "justzisguy" is a fairly smart, head-on-the-shoulders consumer (hey, he's smart enough to use Slashdot and know that LotR is THE movie), I would have to say that the theater's disclaimer sign about "12am being really 12pm" is not good enough of a warning to their consumers. He didn't see it, did he? Nor did the cashier "warn" him about the time misprint. Tickets are a receipt of service to be honored on the day and time printed on said tickets. If the theater's ticketing software cannot keep track of and print AM vs. PM properly, I'd say it's time for a software update and/or firing somebody for being a complete bonehead. What if some innocent Mom bought the advance tickets as a gift and didn't see the sign, wasn't warned by the cashier, and upon reading the print on the tickets confirmed that she had the right day and time? Then the kids get there and the tickets aren't honored because the tickets are fraudulent and the sign is obviously not visible enough to all ticket buyers? What a load of horse poopy!