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Mandrake Appealing to Community, Again
An anonymous reader writes "It seems that MandrakeSoft's short-term financial problem is worse than was thought. A new page on the Mandrake web site says: 'Everyone who is concerned with the company's future is encouraged to read and distribute the following message. In order to reach the next release, MandrakeSoft currently needs to raise cash, and quickly complete the Increase of Capital.' Darn, and I thought they were almost over this hump. Looks like a good time to help recruit Mandrake supporters for the Club."
they made money with selling the box distros, but that is certianly not enough for all the iso downloads. they make a soild distro, so giving them some cash would be good.
Isn't Mandrakesoft a COMPANY? Why should we help a company? Is this "Charity for Corporations Week" here?
I am a 31 year old male virgin and I really, really need to lose my virginity this year. At this point I don't care if you're a guy or the world's skankiest geekette. If you are willing to finally make me a man, please reply to this post with your address. I'll fly over next week.
Mandrake should either go non-profit so they can beg for money without being an embarrassment, or shut the doors.
slashdot broke my sig
IMO, Mandrake is about to get thinned from the herd. And it'll be too bad, since they've provided a lot of leadership in terms of desktop Linux, but I think we're all a lot more realistic about business realities than we were a few years ago.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
I remember my first Linux Distro... It was Mandrake 6.0. It is the best one I've ever used, for it's bare-bones Red Hat compatability and ease of use. They are missing the boat by trying to compete with people like Red Hat because they know they can't steal Red Hat users. RH users are dedicated to RH and usually revere Mandrake as child's play. Mandrake needs to re-evaluate their position and make themselves a Linux for the working man who doesn't have the time to sit around for hours making it work.
I think there approach is very smart in the Free Software community: in just a few year they succeeded to become one of the most popular Linux distro which very small means. For instance there are currently one of the most downloaded Linux distribution: http://download.com. It would be a pity that such great project disapears now. I wish them a very good luck and happy christmas.
But why continue to throw money into toilet? It's already started flushing man, get out while you can. When a company begins a downward spiral like this, the first instinct it to start throwing some money into it, putting out fires here and there. However the damage is too much and without a huge investment, and I'm talking more than the Slashdot community could ever raise, its going to continue all the way down.
A second point to be made in this is Mandrake is a company. When they start begging for money like this to save the company, I want to see a plan. I want to know how my money is going to help. What they have is way to vague.
Our current cash needs are approximately 4ME ($4M USD). This level of cash infusion would resolve outstanding debts, cover the expenses needed to become profitable, plus secure an extra amount to satisfy the needs of future growth.
What kind of outstanding debt? Is my money going to pay for those 1,500 dollar Aeron chairs the executes who are already being paid 6 digit salary are sitting in? Is it to cover "corporate meetings" held at the Sheraton or some other overly expensive restraunt? Those are the things that bother me the most. I'd be more than glad to help a company that is going under due to the pressure of the market, but I want to know why they got to where they are now. Is it because of a sincere inability to raise profit and lower required expenses? Or is it because the executives demanded fresh squeezed juices while they sit back in an Aeron chair.
I'm not saying Mandrake is like that, but I know plenty of companies that are to be overly cautious about investing any money into a company about to go bankrupt.
..There's a-dooin's a-transpirin'
Flash: MandrakeSoft's Future
Many of you have followed the evolution of MandrakeSoft throughout the past few years. Everyone who is concerned with the company's future is encouraged to read and distribute the following message.
Despite the many financial challenges of maintaining a fully open source business model, MandrakeSoft has always followed the Free Software approach, but in this normally joyful holiday season we are experiencing a serious short-term cash crisis.
In order to reach the next release, MandrakeSoft currently needs to raise cash and quickly complete an Increase of Capital. Please take a moment to read this important message at the Mandrake Linux website: http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/future.php3
We know you may have read our previous appeals, but if you are truly concerned about MandrakeSoft's future, now is the time to mobilize and help spread the word.
With the holidays upon us, a great way to spread some "Linux cheer" is by offering the gift of a MandrakeClub membership. The Club is a great way to support MandrakeSoft, and to help others too.
Sincerely,
The MandrakeSoft team.
By my watch, with the amount of money that Mandrake has already spent, they should have the absolute best commercial distribution of Linux available. There should be no question as to the performance of Mandrake compared to any other commercial version. They should be kicking ass and taking names. Unfortunately, the only ass they're kicking is the collective behind of the Linux community, and the only names they're taking are followed by credit card numbers.
Meanwhile, we're a non-profit company that produces the absolute best-of-class general-purpose audio compression codec in the world, proprietary or otherwise. We've been through recessions and poor economic times before; Hopefully we'll live through this one, too. Everybody and their brother has a Linux distribution; Why don't you support the smaller projects that actually make a difference?
Emmett Plant
CEO, Xiph.org Foundation
509 Pepperidge Ln
San Antonio, TX 78213
rawr!
My company, UG-WebDesign, uses Mandrake Linux. I use Mandrake for the Web Server that runs our primary site along with several of our Clients sites. In addition, I also setup Mandrake Linux to run as our internal E-mail server.
:)
The setup we are currently using is Mandrake Linux 9.0 running MySQL 3.23.52, Apache 1.3.26, and PHP 4.2.3. Along with the we are running Postfix and the IMAP server for our internal E-mail.
We originally started with Mandrake Linux 8.0, but tried several competing solutions including FreeBSD 4.7, RedHat 7.2, RedHat 8.0, and Windows XP Professional. For our needs, we finally decided to return to Mandrake Linux as the best of choice. With this, we gave Mandrake Linux 9.0 a try and haven't looked back since. Our main reasons were that Mandrake Linux was the fastest, most stable option for us as our Hardware is slightly aged. We see minimal slow-downs even with steady work loads. This is especially noticeable when comparing Mandrake Linux to the Windows XP server we tested. The Windows XP server couldn't handle more than a few simultaneous connections before seriously beginning to slow down the entire network.
We will continue to use Mandrake Linux 9.0. At least until the next Mandrake release.
...like maybe Gentoo, if we're gonna talk distros? Having done several installfests, my university LUG has had consistent problems with various versions of the Mandrake distro on a variety of pretty generic, stable hardware. Mandrake used to have a rep for ease of use and a slick installer, but these days all they're known for is bloat and instability, at least in my circles. All corporate wellfare issues aside, put your money where the product is; in the Linux realm, that means RedHat for everyday use and Gentoo for power use. Mandrake can go hang.
While I am a fan of the "Club" concept, let's find out if it is any good.
If anyone that is a member of this "club" is reading, can you explain to those of us who aren't what is good (and bad?) about this club?
Thanks!
"To make a mistake is only human; to persist in a mistake is idiotic." Cicero
They weren't maintaining so many websites...
k estore.com// www.mandrakeexpert.com/s es.com/w .mandrakeuser.org//
http://www.mandrakesoft.com/
http://www.mandra
http://www.mandrakeclub.com/
http:/
http://www.mandrakebizca
http://www.mandrakeforum.com/
http://ww
http://www.mandrakesecure.net
http://www.mandrakeonline.net/
Karma: The shiznight, mostly because I am the Drizzle.
I'm about to quit bothering with Mandrake anymore. They removed their 486 distribution from the mirrors! It's nearly impossible to find now. I burned a CD of the 486 7.0 distro, and the next month it was gone. I use it as a simple way to put moderate functionality into some of these 486 boxes I have lying around. It runs ok on 486's around 50MHz+. However, I tried to go find txt_bootnet.img for it, and everything had vanished. Redhat 6.0 bootnet disks nearly work, and I did find something on a mandrake-CLE server in Taiwan. Don't know if it works yet.
If Mandrake wants people to like and buy their distribution, they shouldn't actually go through the effort of wiping their old distributions out of existence. I though some of the ideas were pretty neat, but won't buy a distro that not only completely drops support for older systems, but makes sure you can never get the old distro again.
Anyone want a mandrake486 cd? I'll burn you a CD free and send it for price of Priority Mail postage ($3.20). I'll only send out ten total, just want to make sure other people have it, so it won't completely vanish.
...
So now when Amazon isn't going to make their quarterly profit they should turn on the amazon 'donte now' buttons and we'll all save them out of the goodness of our heart?
Oh no, Playstation 2 is behind schedule cuz it costs too much, donte money now!
this is a bit on the weird side folks. maybe it's the codeine i've been taking for my surgery but this just don't work for me.
As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.
This is simply a matter of a company asking for a bail-out. The fact that it's a linux distro is simply tugging on your heartstrings, in the hopes that the plea will tug on your purse-strings.
What this all boils down to is you have to decide how many chances you feel Mandrake should get. How many times will you give money to an entity that, although they make a nice product, seems incapable of balancing gains and expenditures. This is merely a business decision, one which occurs daily. The strong survive, the weak die out.
Don't throw good money after bad. Your money will not save Mandrake. Instead, it will wind up in a few lucky creditors' (and their lawyers') pockets after bankruptcy proceedings.
If you have some money that you want to donate to a good cause, pick one where it will do some good. I don't care whether it's the Salvation Army or the EFF, but be effective with your donations. Let the market take care of the less effective corporations--that's what it does.
I'm sorry, but "we swear things are looking up" isn't going to cut it. Exciting new announcements? Come on, this vague language worked in the dot com era.
Let me spell it out for you guys: show us graphs. Show us numbers. Let's see your exact plan for ending your reliance on our philanthropy. I wanna know what your assumptions are.
The only data points I have right now are:
- You sell something that you also give away for free, with little obvious value-add in the for-sale version
- Your business model, despite mumblings otherwise, has relied in the past on the goodwill of the community
- The goodwill of the community is running out
What did you eat today? http://www.atetoday.com/
Who are we trying to kid? Slippery slope. There are too many commercial linux distro, with not enough to distinguish them and just not enough market to sustain all those jobs. You know it, I know it, we all know it, we just delude ourselves otherwise.
Some commercial linux distros are going under, and Mandrake is showing all the signs that it's going to be one of them. Ask yourself this; if you bail out Mandrake (again), do you acccept that means that someone else will go under instead?
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
By March 2001, the results of this strategy showed a marked decrease in income, while expenses increased by 400%. At its worst point, MandrakeSoft's "burn rate" was approximately 1.5 ME/month ($1.5M/month). As a result, it was soon decided to remove this experienced management team and to refocus the company's activities strictly toward Linux.
So, because they've made poor business decisions in the past (to include hiring bad management and throwing away money) we're supposed to support them? Give me a break! Sheez, by this logic, someone should just pay off my credit cards and give me a house (any takers?).
Feel free to mark me as troll.
..the recent announcement by Sony & Matsushita, and their plans to develop Linux into a more suitable system for the home entertainment market.
Mandrake has (in my opinion at least) always been more comfortable in the home / desktop environment (sorry, but I dont believe in using X windows, and graphical tools to admin a Linux server) - perhaps Sony and Matsushita could look at some kind of buy out for Mandrake, and put their expertise to work for them instead?
"Hey! Unless this is a nude love-in, get the hell off my property!!"
This has been my random message of the day (tm)
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I think it's best we look at Hollywood to answer this little problem. What happened when George Newman needed money to save his UHF station, U62? Why, he sold shares in the company.
Why should someone donate $50 or whatever to Mandrake and see the same benefit as the guy who donated nothing?
Now all they need is Stanley Spidowski's Word Processing program pre-installed as well as Conan the Librarian's File-Sharing client.
try the edditor 'ed', i've heard good things about it.
-- free as in swatantryam - not soujanyam.
RedHat posted its first profit ever last week. I don't recall them ever asking for donations. Maybe they should buy Mandrake and dislove it/convert their user base to RH 8.0.
Karma: The shiznight, mostly because I am the Drizzle.
I feel like mandrake has earned my money. With Redhat on the path to becoming the next Microsoft, I feel like there need to be more distros available and mandrake staying in business is a big part of that.
Since I regularly use Mandrake, I try to buy the distribution CDs for major upgrades. The price is well worth it, especially if you get the DVD. When I download the ISOs instead, I answer 50 or so support questions on mandrakeexpert.com for free. Since other people pay to ask the questions, this is a way I can indirectly support the product. My point is don't be a leech. If you use the product, find some way to contribute, monetarily or otherwise.
This space intentionally left blank.
...and in Soviet Russia, 10 years ago realizes you!
-pyrrho
I haven't so far, but I will since I use Mandrake on a few machines. The price is a hell of a lot better than the price of WinXP, and they don't try to force any registration or similar thing on You.
A feature that I really like about Mandrake is the "urpmi". I don't need to register anywhere, just point out where the upgrades live (on some ftp mirror) and have a "urpmi.update -a ; urpmi --auto-select --auto" in my crontab, and my system will be up to date and I don't even have to care.
I even upgraded my 9.0 system to a 9.1 (the devel-version) this way. All I had to do was to point the urpmi to the devel-version and it took care of everything.
I really hope they make it.
Want to be a stable node?
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. -- Harlan Ellison
I can't speak for others, but I've tried to approach Mandrake about business partnerships in the past, and they never respond. They've got a phone number in the US which is never answered, and 'fill out this form' pages never get responded to. There may in fact be many other companies that would like to do business with Mandrake for mutual benefit, but they're probably way too focused on just desktop linux development to consider anything else (and, while their distro is OK, it's not really much better than anyone else).
:)
RedHat specifically is branching out into training and vertical markets ('advanced server', 'rh database', etc). I don't see Mandrake really trying to address any specific need beyond not pissing off the general linux community. That's just not enough to make a profitable business, imo.
If anyone from Mandrake actually reads this message, please email me at michael@tapinternet.com. Thanks.
creation science book
I got the karma to burn and after dealing with a very crashy server, I got the angst to burn as well.
I swear . . . you people amaze me. You cry a river over Palladium and litter these message boards with cheers when some country decides to go Linux. You hate Microsoft - yet - when the most user friendly desktop distro is in financial trouble - you scorn them. I mean - wtf? If you believe in the cause and a major leader is having problems - you help them out. You help them out not because you want something in return, you help them out to keep the movement alive. And don't give me this market philosphy bullshit either. If you really believe that shit, stick with MS.
I swear you people are incredible. You cry so much about the DRM thing yet you make it invetiable by turning your back on Mandrake. You're just proving to everybody (including the RIAA, MPAA) that you just want a free lunch. Nothing else. Nothing more.
Go ahead - flame me to death and knock me down to the -1 country. I don't give a shit.
Or RedHat, Mandrake provides a service. This is their business.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I've read quite a few opinions here moaning about how mandrake is merely a company and that they don't really do anything positive for the community.
Actually they do a hell of a lot for the community and it is clear that most of the negativity here is coming from people that know nothing of mandrakesoft.
1. Mandrake pays supports many full time developers who work on open source software such as KDE, PHP-nuke; the linux kernel, CUPS.
2. New mandrake distributions are always available for download immediately (usually before the box sets).
3. The mandrake-linux distribution is all free and opensource software.
The real problem is perhaps that they should only offer iso images to club members. I've been using the mandrake distribution since I started using free & opensource software several years ago and I never bought a copy. I was never interested in a box set. The mandrake club has given me and others like me the opportunity to pay for the work done providing us with a distribution we like.
Unfortunately, it seems that amongst all the people who happily use the mandrake distribution iso downloads, there aren't enough that feel a moral obligation to support mandrake by joining the club. This is unfortunate - dispite all the heckling here, their distribution is the most popular of the desktop orientated ones, and in my opinion, rightly so.
I think that I will just buy a hat and 30 shares of stock.
Give a man handouts every time he asks and he becomes dependent. A little tough love a year ago and maybe mandrakeSoft makes it out okay. Sorry but are you a business or a charity?
Well I wont blame them because they're French-even the French can run a business ;-P
I will blame Mandrake. Lets see...pay to use it via purchasing it out-right, or signing up for subscription service called "A User Club" if you donate $60 you still can't get the new StarOffice 6.0 (Who cares I like Open office) then "we need money for 9.0" Get released, and as we know they always release a Beta as the final...more time passes, "Oh crap what happened to the money?"
Sure we can say it happened because of 9/11 that seems to be the catch all, but as many people stated how does a company burn through so much money? I would want to see how they spend the money, and I mean a detailed record rather than three lines of info. Plus they are a company, they even have stock for jehibu Christmas! A company that has stocks issued and is asking for handouts is in a bit of trouble, kind like Loki in the day eh?
This SIG pulled due to lack of funding. (This damn war is costing too much!)
Stop making excuses.
IF you dont like the software they make dont subscribe, just like if you dont like AOLs software you wont subscribe to AOL, and if you dont like Cable TVs channels you wont subscribe to this, and if you dont like Redhat network you wont subscribe to that,
but please do not complain about the business model, you know this is the same Model redhat uses and the only model which works.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
If you use their software why shouldnt you support the development of this software?
Are you an idiot?
You subscribe so that you can get more of the software you value.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Mandrake is in a short-term cash crunch. They are approaching profitability, but they won't get there without additional funding. Kind of like the marathon runner who collapses dead within strides of the finish line.
Mandrake's plea is directed at people who have downloaded Mandrake's products for free and liked them. Clearly, not everyone belongs in that category. But, it's OK for Mandrake to ask people to give back something for the wonderful stuff which Mandrake has done for us.
Yes, Mandrake recently screwed up people's preorders badly, including mine. That's because they were forced to lay off a lot of people, in order to shrink their losses. They have a chance to be profitable, but they need a little help.
How this is different than LWN.net asking for help is beyond me (although I'm sure there are plenty of smart-alecks waiting in line to tell me). Mandrake provides free goods and services, and all they're asking for is that people who have benefited from them will consider giving something back. After Mandrake is gone, then SuSE will be the next one to go under. Then, we can all rejoice and run Red Hat.
Even Red Hat has only JUST NOW broken even, and they are the ones with the inside track to all the enterprise installations.
Why not give Mandrake a little help, so they can make it to the break-even point? If you haven't checked out the new Mandrake Club, it's worth a look. The multi-language support is truly extraordinary. I compare it to slashdot, in terms of a paradigm shift.
I'm a standard club member, and I purchased the DVD for the last release, so I think I've done my part to support my favorite distribution. Have you?
You donate money to Redhat when you subcribe to their services, how is it any different than subscribing to Mandrakesoft?
It works for Redhat because Redhat targets a userbase thats not filled with greedy chumps like you who want freebies.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Redhat gives away the code and the OS. So you say you'd pay for a redhat subscription in one moment (a donation to redhat) then in the next sentence you dont donate money to for profit corps?
Do you work for Redhat?
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
As a qualified investor, I was throughly unimpressed by the presentation (for want of a better term) on the Mandrake webpage referenced to in the article. As a user of Red Hat (my first distro back in the day), later Mandrake, M$, and other products, I can state that my confidence in the future of Mandrake, and it's current management, have diminished. I'm not sure if it is even legal to advertise for shares like that: "If you are a qualified investor who would like to participate in the current round of financing, please contact (email) with the amount you wish to invest." Ummm, would you happen to have a prospectus lying around? The whole page looks like someone banged it out late at night while sweating and trying to ignore that ache in the pit of their stomach. I formerly recommended Mandrake to friends who wanted to get into Linux because it was easy abd friendly, but that is no longer the same this day. And if they are as shakey as they appear, then to purchase something intangible (like services) make be a very poor investment, in my opinion. And that's unfortunate, for like the apparent demise of the Russian space program, innovation, however incremental it may seem at the time, will be forever retarded.
I'd much rather give to beggars in the street...if you can't stay in business then get out
Your project is unique, as far as I know, and genuinley useful to lots of people. I fail to see how another Linux distribution, that when I tried it (version 7.0) was more or less a RedHat knockoff, is any sort of huge benefit.
So people, if you are feeling the urge to donate to free software, give it to the Xiph guys. No matter what OS you use, OGG is available to you, and it's GOOD at what it does. If Mandrake dies, well, then they die and we are limited to only the other million and a half Linux distros. If Xiph dies, we don't get updates to Vorbis, and none of the rest of their projects come to be.
They should just say "Only club members can Download Linux Mandrake, Join the Club or Leave the site"
This is what you want isnt it?
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
If I wanted Red Hat Linux with some ugly-ass icons, I'd... well I guess I'd make some ugly-ass icons
You should ask for your money back!
My Red Hat came with an ugly-ass desktop called Bluecurve!!!
Call me old fashioned, but I like a dump to be as memorable as it is devastating - Bender
I'm starting to think the "???" part of their business plan is "beg for money". Clearly, charitable donations have become part of their business plan.
The little respect I had for them the first time they -- a friggin' for-profit BUSINESS -- begged for my money has completely dissipated. To me, MandrakeSoft has become nothing more than a corporate Linux gnat that won't leave me alone.
Take your coffee can and go beg somewhere else. Do it quickly before you give all legitimate Linux businesses a black eye.
Note the graphs on the linked page,
obviously generated in excel (and not
gnumeric). One way to cut costs is to
use free software.
Why don't they just have membership drives twice a year, like PBS? That way they can waste tons of money producing content noone watches, save a few brie eaters who'll write their donations off against their taxes?
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
from the announcement, they need $4M to pay off outstanding debts. why would individual people want to pay off debts to other businesses? let mandrake the company go under, and it's software survive (since it's open source, the distro can be picked up by private individuals, or a new company, or somesuch), alleviating the $4M debt. screw the corporate world.
I have my own distro in the works, it's called Prometheus (used to be called SimplyGNUstep). I have never fooled myself into thinking that I could make a million dollars (or any amount really) from making it.
I do have one idea though...
I have been thinking that for the next release, which will be at the beta level but still usable, to package the install cd-roms in some nice fashion and auction them on eBay.
The cost to do this would be about $5 a set. It would involve putting nice labels on the cd-roms (install and source disc), a little quickstart booklet, and a nice, labeled DVD type case.
I was thinking of starting the bid of these at $10, which will gurantee I will make $5 a copy, which seems fair to me. Any bids over $10 will be distributed among opensource organizations. Since Prometheus is totally dependent of GNUstep, a large percentage would go to them, as for the rest, who knows.
This way, there is an easy way to pay for a nicely packaged product, plus, you can donate as much as you feel like donating.
On another note, I wish there was a central web-site one could go to learn about donating money to opensource projects (maybe there is one already).
Donate $300 to bill gates.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
But apparently it's not working for them (it is for RedHat). That's all I am saying. There may be a few too many for-profit Linux distributors out there (at least considering the current market shares of Linux) and it's gonna be survival of the fittest. In other words, MandrakeSoft will most likely go.
It they are so appealing, why do they always have to beg for money?
..but my unemployment insuance is running out fast. Hey, maybe I should start my own distro and beg for funds. heh
If MandrakeSoft is in such dire straights, then what's all this about? Just last week revenue was up 31%, operating costs down 42%, and they were giving themselves a big pat on the back. And now they're asking for handouts again? What?
Subscribe to transgaming instead
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Mandrakesoft gives you free access to download software, they freely allow a programmer to work on KDE and the Linux Kernel, they freely give you a website, Mandrake Expert, Mandrake Forum etc,
You cant donate some money to keep these free services? I guess you dont really want them.
If PS2 were giving out free games why not donate $60 once in a great while?
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I need Karma, real bad man. Please mod me up. I promise I won't waste it on first posts this time. Com'on Mr. Moderator, won't YOU PLEASE HELP ME!!!!!!!
Seriously, it's too bad Mandrake has come to this. I suspect they'll be gone soon for all of the reasons mentioned in the posts above. I actually installed it once, didn't see any reason to use over RedHat which IMO is the defacto commercial version Linux now.
You know you're a geek if you've ever replied to a tagline.
If you don't use Mandrake, it's not worth saving, plain and simple. If you use Mandrake, and you like it, then getting Mandrake through this rough patch ensures that they'll be around for you to use their next release.
Numerous polls show that Mandrake is the favorite desktop distribution by a wide margin, so there are clearly a lot of people who use Mandrake and like it, and if Mandrake goes out of business, they're all going to be moving to SuSE or Red Hat. Clearly, there are reasons that so many people opted to use Mandrake in the first place, so SuSE and Red Hat are going to be a step down for many.
I am a standard member of the club, and I purchased the DVD set of Mandrake 9.0, because it was worth paying for.
While that sounds harsh, and i fully admit they have contributed to the 'community'..
But the fact remains they are a FOR profit company.
If they cant turn a profit, then they dont have a viable business plan and shouldnt be around. Regardless of what market you are in.. be it GPL, or cars, or even street drugs.
If they can, then more power to them, and hope to see them on the other side of the resession..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Yeah. Sounds like a real solid business model.
Reality:
Mandrade could make money selling distros by following the OpenBSD model, copyrighting the ISO images and not making them available for download. Alternatively, they could write proprietary installers and configuration tools that are not open source, witholding those from people that download the OS components. What they have now is a losing business model that will only get worse as more and more people have access to broadband.
Let them eat cake.
Slashdot? Oh, I just read it for the articles.
Replies like the one the parent poster has received are the number one obstacle to any Linux distro making it big on the desktop. "RTFM" and dumbass inside jokes are going to send hordes of potential Linux users back to Windows. Maybe you taught yourself everything by reading man pages -- well, good for you. For most people, an informative answer to a reasonable question is one of the most useful and encouraging possible resources in making the transition to a new platform.
To answer the question: nedit and xemacs are two pretty decent GUI text editors that run on Linux. nedit is probably easier to learn if you're coming from the Windows world, but if I were you I'd put the time into learning xemacs, since it's descended from emacs, which is one of the standard text editors in the Unix world.
Also do at least learn a little bit about vi (type "man vi" at any Terminal prompt) since it's a) very simple for quick, in-place editing, and b) on just about every distro of every type of Unix machine.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Shouldn't it not matter if they go out of business or not?
I thought the whole point of open-source is that buyers were not tied to any one particular company for proprietary software.
So how much of Mandrake's disto is proprietary and when are they planning to release it as open source so it isn't tied to their poorly-managed company?
Just my 2, but if they really deserved your money, they'd be totally open-source and it really wouldn't matter whether they stay in business or not. If a lot of their worthwhileness is tied to proprietary software, then it's best to let them die so that their proprietary software doesn't proliferate.
evanchik.net
I swear you people are incredible. You cry so much about the DRM thing yet you make it invetiable by turning your back on Mandrake. You're just proving to everybody (including the RIAA, MPAA) that you just want a free lunch. Nothing else. Nothing more.
Have you considered that the number of folks who complain are so few they can't support Mandrake? That the number of people who prefer Mandrake over some other distro are too few? Maybe it's just the Darwinian process, a Linux mutation that was not viable. I have nothing against Mandrake, it's a fine distro, I happen to prefer a different distro. I support my primary Linux and BSD distros, I don't support the "others" that I just download, tinker with a little, but don't really use. Perhaps my sentiments are the norm and there are few ingrates and no conspiracy.
No one. Look at the map, the closest match it had was Pepperidge Cv, not Ln. No such place.
The early affection of the slashdot crowd for Mandrake was always mystifying to me, and by the looks of the up-modded posts on this thread, it looks like a few of them have finally figured out that they've been had. Pity it didn't happen a few years ago.
:)
Meanwhile, projects that actually contribute something unique to the community, as opposed to Yet Another Goddamn Shoddy Distribution, languish. I've donated to the Ogg project; have you?
Emmett, any timeframe on getting vorbis support into the iPod?
News for Nerds. Stuff that Matters? Like hell.
While most commercial distributions are turning partly-proprietary, Mandrake has always followed the all-GPL/FDL route. Of the commercial ones, only Red Hat and Mandrake remain as really free(dom) operating systems the way the GNU project intended. I don't think they're out of line asking for support when they provide you a free distribution. Look at it as a service (we all know where free software companies should be able to make their profit, right) - you pay for the development of the software. Mandrake is in distress because it's users are mostly desktop users that don't need any support services because they can get the help they need from other places.
:)
The Club also provides services for Mandrake users, you do get something in return for your money. I don't know of any other place you can have discussions/get help/read news about Linux and Mandrake in particular in almost 20 different languages such as Esperanto (!), Japanese and Finnish. There is the RPM-voting system for packaging new versions of software the club members request, the discounts for various products (not only Mandrake's), and some other smaller things. It's also nice to have our very own MandrakeSoft employee answering questions, being generally helpful and continuously coming up with ways to improve the service. Thanks Deno!
Recently the members got to interview the new CEO, the article gave insight to what Mandrake could develop into if it survives. The answers are only available for club members currently but some interesting tidbits are that they're going to focus on providing even more services for the club members, making Ximian GNOME part of the distribution as suggested by a club member (which I think all distributions should do anyway, instead of coming up with tons of different looking GNOME desktops) and developing new software on demand.
I suggest you take a look at the MandrakeClub site and look at what it offers before putting this down as "Charity".
signed,
A happy MandrakeClub member
I don't know if anyone can find it, but I remember reading an article that pretty much outlined the above as the cause of the dot-com bust.
1) small company grows into medium-sized one under original founder.
2) board decides that current CEO/management aren't "qualified" enough and replace them with their college friends in order to "grow the company".
3) new CEO/college friends hire more college friends at bloated salaries and spending quadruples.
4) company goes under.
5) everyone wonders why.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
But I'll keep my current subscription active.
This initiative so soon after the last one, especially since what they got last time was yearly subscriptions, is a little disheartening.
I agree with the other posts saying this request is just too vague and doesn't explain where all the money that was raised last time went to.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
I've purchased three Mandrake box sets in the past few years, as well as a couple from SuSE and RedHat. They all do the same job, and are roughly comparable for features and support. If only 10,000 copies of the pack are sold per year at $75/ea at a $50/pack profit (far less than it should be), that should be bringing in 500,000 per year. They are asking for 4,000,000 in donations above that.
Lets assume I've wildly underestimated their sales by 500%, and they're actually making 2,500,000 in box-set profits. That is still only 38% of their current cash-burn rate of $6,500,000 per year. (The alternative is that they are only covering less than 20% of costs from sales income, which even the most asinine of managers would realize is a failed business.)
At $100K/developer plus another $100K/developer to cover overhead, corporate income tax contributions, etc., $6.5M would cover 32 well-paid staff.
I "rolled my own" distro last year over 3-4 months of 2-3 hours/night (i.e. 15-20 hours/week), ending up with every feature and package that I use under Linux. If I can come up with an installation by myself in that short a time, there is absolutely no way I can see Mandrake requiring assets beyond:
That is still only 23 staff members, roughly 15% of whom are grossly overpaid ($100K for a shipper is more than even the most obscenely bloated union salary would reach for the skills required.)
What are the other 9 staffers doing? Or are their staff that hideously over-compensated and unskilled that they need nearly a 50% incompetancy overhead?
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
but not Mandrake. Mandrake is here to make money. As such it is a swim or drawn situation. Sorry, no lifesavers.
I'm sure mandrake was hoping everyone had forgotten. From the Mandrake website, May 2001:
May 22, 2001
In order to quell further rumours regarding MandrakeSoft's alleged
pressing needs for financial liquidity, recent layoffs of part of
its senior management team and planned layoffs in its Development team,
MandrakeSoft Co-Founder, Chairman and CEO Jacques Le Marois explains
that "former CEO Henri Poole and himself mutually agreed on the
management change over a month ago as a result of a divergence of views
regarding the Company's strategic outlook.
Le Marois further points out that "MandrakeSoft's prospects have never
looked so good: In 2000, Linux-Mandrake took #1 slot in US Linux retail
sales (Source: PC Data). The recent management changes and refocusing
of our strategy on our core distribution and related online and offline
services have allowed us to make major savings and we are on course to
break even within a few months. The announcement of the latest release
of the Linux-Mandrake operating system - version 8.0 - has met with
unprecedented success, both in terms of user adoption, which is made
obvious by the hundreds of thousands of versions downloaded from our Web
site since the announcement, and in terms of positive media coverage and
pre-sales to our business partners throughout the world. The imminent
launch of MandrakeStore, our online store, will create a solid new revenue
stream: we've already pre-sold thousands of PowerPack Editions
online.
In addition, there are already more than 35,000 registered users on
MandrakeExpert and MandrakeCampus, which represents massive revenue
potential for us going forward: we will shortly be introducing an online
'tipping' system, allowing users to reward those Experts who provide them
with useful responses to their Linux-Mandrake related questions, and
MandrakeSoft will take a commission on each transaction.
Besides, a paying user registration system to MandrakeExpert will also
shortly be introduced, which represents yet another source of revenue
for the Company". Le Marois concludes that "all these positive elements,
together with the fact that we have built a very large individual and
professional user community at very little expense, and have an experienced
and highly committed management team to execute our strategy, are playing
in our favour for our plans to IPO in the coming months, so watch this space!"
Public support and a charity model may be very reasonable approaches to funding the development and maintenance of free software. After all, the supposed rationale for free software is unlimited public benefit. The idea of making a profit from it only crept in with the relatively recent open source fiasco. Open source proposed a poorly thought out and completely non-quantitative business model that has dragged down every company of significant size that's tried it. You can't make money selling software that can be given away for free. It's just that simple.
I think organizations employing the charity model would do better to seek corporate or government grants rather than appealing to their traditionally tight-fisted technical constituency, though. Certainly trying to play both sides of the fence, incorporating as a for-profit company but then asking for donations, is not going to make any friends or confer any credibility.
From what I can see in the discussion here, there are people who are insisting that we support Mandrake because it's apparently our obligation to do so, no matter what we think of the company's business practices or their product, because they're a Linux company and, well, we need to support Linux.
This is a specious argument at best. I don't give money to a company just because I believe they're "doing the right thing" -- especially not if they're doing the right thing in the wrong way. I believe in supporting the company that does the right thing for the right reasons and in the right ways. I use Windows, but I owned stock in RedHat (until recently, due to me rearranging my portfolio) because I wanted to see at least some money go towards one of the better-managed and -executed competitors.
Another thing people have pointed out: what if we do bail them out, and they just dig another, even deeper hole? They haven't done a very good job of managing themselves in the past; why should we stick our necks out for them now?
On a side note, some other folks in the same thread have mentioned rolling their own micro-distros -- a very good idea, especially if you get a distro that solves very specific problems. I'm still looking for one that a) installs cleanly, b) doesn't require 3 CDs of bloat to be functional, and c) has an elegant interface that I don't have to employ guesswork to use. Irony of ironies: Mac OS X was about the closest I ever got to that.
Honorary Member of Jackie Chan's Kung Fu Process Servers
In spite of the very unfortunate way MandrakeClub is "advertised" (ahem), MandrakeClub is not a charity, but a service.
I am in charge of MandrakeClub, and i have worked very hard for last 12 months to build that place into something really special.It isn't finished yet, but it is indeed on a good way to become by far the best "service" for private users and small companies.
I wan't bother you with the details (as if someone would care to read anyway), but there is a whole bunch of people there who are really happy to be Club members today, so I must have done something right after all.
I know that everyone on Slashdot is telling you that Club is no-good, but maybe you should just go there once, and try to build your own meaning.
OK, it wan't be a very excitiong trip (site is not made for anonymous users, and it is in fact even quite unfriendly towards them), but maybe you could still get a feeling that it isn't "just charity" by browsing trough FAQs, and looking at the discussion in the "future" forum on MandrakeClub.
Okay. So they say they're almost to the point of breaking even, which implies they've paid off a great deal of their debts. They say they have a solid business plan for the future.
If that were true, then they should be able to simply borrow money from a bank.
Yes. That's how banks make money -- they loan money to businesses with a good plan for earning a profit, and then recoup the investment with interest. The company uses the profit they earn to pay the loan balance.
If Mandrake can't get a loan, do you really believe in their Not Very Specific At All plans?
San Antonio, TX 78213
John Romero's address?
What kind of woman are you?
The other distros, lets see, how many newbies can install slackware or debian?
Thank you.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Its watered down and fake, its not very flexible, they dont listen to or care about the community,
Linux Mandrake actually listens to the community.
The only linux community for newbies is mandrake, debian is too hard, Lycoris is too much like windows to be considered linux, and Lindows is totally corperate.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Mandrake hangs on my machine during the install so I can't tell much about it... but I do know that it took me a while to figure out the location of CD images (true for other distros as well). Yeah, I am sure it is obvious to all of you, but it was not to me. And manuals in all Linux distros tend to skip obvious things! And these are exactly the things not obvious to newbies like me.
As a side note -- vi is a strange editor. Not to say bad, but strange -- having to actually do something (switch to insert mode) in order to start typing makes it really weird for me. I am really used to emacs, so I would recommend that. I also heard really good things about kate.
This isn't some video game or cool toy like Newtons or some shit that we want to succeede. If it truly is a "cause" to anyone, then it's a cause about philosophy, not market dominance. It's about Free versus Proprietary, not market versus market. Mandrake is on our side, but they're just a corporate trapping on top of the "cause". Their survival is nice, but not necessary. Frankly, if they -- a supposedly for-profit organization -- need to beg for cache, then we'd be better off giving our money to a charity like the FSF. At least they won't vanish if the donations turn out to not be enough.
The enemies of Democracy are
Lot's of good companies go out of business because they didn't have the cash at the right time. Their business model is strong and they have friends in high places (WalMart?) to make them a success.
While everyone is entitled to an opinion, I find it interesting that several posters are dismissing Mandrake's software as "crap."
I've been a loyal Mandrake user now for a few years now. While Mandrake has put out a few substandard releases, Mandrake has also produced a lot of good work over time. With the latest releases of RedHat and Mandrake, Mandrake still installs okay, Redhat doesn't. Perhaps they are *all* bad.
Also, Mandrake has employed a lot of open source folks over time. If you are using Linux today, chances are you've probably run more than one or two lines of code that were written by someone in that "crappy company."
I'm tired of Mandrake going to the well too. Still, if open source software has a chance, it needs a way to pay people. Sure, we all donate some of our free time, and that's great. Producing a world class distribution isn't *only* a free time affair though. Notice that the most popular distributions are not maintained by a bunch of guys in their living rooms in sweats.
It is fine if you don't want to donate, but I don't see why we need to be "anti-company". Mandrake made some mistakes in the past and they had some bad management. They are trying to pull themselves out of it though. A negative review on Slashdot pulls a lot of weight with some folks. Hopefully when you anyone posts they aren't simply letting their "hurray open source, down with the companies!" mentality get the better of them.
-M
mdk is simply asking for money without providing much extra value. the 'subscription' to RHN is a defined value-add - priority access to tested update packages.
If MDK was smart, they'd say the $60/year ($5/month) buys access to priority servers to URMPI update packages tested for your MDK version. That's easy to understand and define, and adds value to everyone. A 'club' just *sounds* childish, and is not at all a 'professional' image, regardless of what it may offer.
Whenever I've tried the 'mandrake update' in the past it NEVER works - slow as hell, and the 'mirrors' are generally in Europe. There are very few North American mirrors, and the interface locked up a lot. Iron out Mandrake update, provide commercial URPMI servers, and I'd pay $60/year for that, as would others I know. Until then, there's not enough value add anymore with MDK.
creation science book
make me appreciate the not for profit distros that much more. This community was built out of the love for software, not the love of the dollar. I remember when I "bought" my first version of Linux (Slackware in the back of one of Pat's books that I purchased to learn a little more about VI) I was able to download the next version without feeling guilty -- or that if I did not sign over my allowance -- the Patrick would go hungry and Linux would die. You know what people -- granted a little eye candy and a few extra memory sticks required things are not that much better today. The only thing different is that all these new guys code with dollar signs in their eyes and not a itch in their souls. Not once have I ever heard Linus ask for my dollar....yet he seems to be doing pretty good for himself. FOrgive me if I sound bitter....It has been a long day.
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
You can't just shove someone through a three-week training course and have them fix Linux boxes, you need people with some degree of skill.
You can if all machines are running the same version of something (MDK8.2, RH7.1, etc). You don't seriously think someone who supports 'Windows' can cover all nuances of 2000, XP, NT4, 98SE, ME and so on in 3 weeks, do you? A 3 week course would cover basic troubleshooting of one system. 'Reboot' is a common troubleshooting technique as well, which would be perfectly reasonable to most people (not to most techies, but more 'average' users who don't expect anything else)
creation science book
The other distros, lets see, how many newbies can install slackware or debian?
//e came out (which I knew inside and out -- knew ROM entry points from memory and did a LOT of machine code programming).
Knowing how dedicated Debianites are, I'm sure this will get modded to troll immediately, but...
I'm not a newbie. I was taking classes in assembler back in the early 80's. I've been working with computers since the late 70's, in high school, and I've had a computer on my desk ever since the Apple
I had to set up a new system last week. I spent 2 days trying to get Debian to install. If it asked for Disk 1 and I mistakenly put in Disk 2, and hit return, then put in the correct disk at the error message, it wouldn't even acknowledge the correct disk. I checked all my CDs to make sure they were readable in the drive I was using, but not once, in 2 days of trying to install Debian did I have a successful install. Every single time, whether I installed from the network, or from a CD, it kept telling me it couldn't get all the packages (and this was a basic install with the basic X-Windows and KDE, not something with a lot of extra programs). I tried the floppy install, following directions, and it still asked for the CDs (not when it was asking for debs sources -- at the beginning). If it installed, X wouldn't run. It did not talk well with my ATI Radeon A-I-W. And forget it even realizing I had a firewire card! I had really wanted to set up a video system under Linux and all my Debian loving friends have been swearing on how good Debian is.
2 days and not once did I get a working install that could recognize my hardware and give me X w/ KDE. So after all that, I decided to try Mandrake 9.0. It worked perfectly the first time. I went to the Penguin Liberation front and got the commands to add RPM sources and all the extra programs I needed (like Cinelerra) installed perfectly. My firewire card worked and for the first time I could capture video in Linux, as well as getting MPlayer to play DVDs.
Mandrake got skunked by venture capitalists who "knew better." Right now I'm still in the startup stage of a business. Money's coming in, but it's paying off startup costs. Mandrake has won my loyalty and I can tell you that within the next month I'll be buying the most complete version of Mandrake 9.0 and will continue to do so with each upgrade they offer. Why? Because it just works! I use the computer as a tool to do work, not as a tool to create tools to make more programs to do more techie stuff with Linux. I use it as a tool, and Mandrake works as a tool. Plain and simple.
Newbie or not, Mandrake is a solid distro and a great tool if you want to actually use your computer to get work done. Such a company deserves our support if we ever want to see Linux prosper on the desktop.
Debian sure isn't anywhere close to the "just install it and it works" stage yet.
Xiph could have followed a similiar route that Mandrake did. They hired the wrong people and made some bad decisions. I realize you are bitter, but your post does not help the situation.
I find that Mandrake is a step ahead of the other distrobutions in general polish and usability. They are also closer to the ideals of the Free Software Foundation than any other distrobution.
Mandrake has made a difference for me. I probably would just be using windows at this point if it hadn't been for Mandrake. This was back with version 7.0 that was just a RH clone, but with better hardware support. I have purchased just about every release since then. And I consider them to be a good investment.
The Linux world will be a poorer place without Mandrake. This call for help was directed at the existing community of Mandrake users. If you do not want to support Mandrake, then don't. But don't use your position to degrade them and discourage others from supporting them. That makes you a very ugly person in my eyes.
I have also supported other small and medium projects. With that attitude, I am not inclined to support Xiph though.
Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
Rather than try to use the Windows Ctrl-V type pasting, use the X method of pasting where you highlight text and middle slick to paste where the cursor is. (you can also use both left and right mouse buttons to simulate a middle click if you have only a two button mouse.) Useing the X paste will work fine with an xterm and console editor.
You might try bluefish for an editor. There are several editors, some of which are not installed by default, so you might check your installation cds. IF you use the GUI install tool, it will organize by category and give a description of items before you install.
Lastly, invest a little time into learning a console editor. Make sure you know the basics of vi just in case. I personally use joe, but I know enough about vi to edit a file if I am stuck on a strangecomputer or forgot to install joe on mine.
Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
"Call me stupid, but the ide of having tens of identical apps installed doesn't appeal to me"
Ok, stupid, here's my response.
Mandrake has a mystical, well-hidden feature during the installer called 'expert mode'. With this unbelievable mechanism, you, yes you, can CHOOSE what packages get installed and what packages are OMITTED. Wait. It's not hidden. It's the 3rd thing it prompts you for.
Don't blame a distro's bloat or duplication of apps on the distro, blame it on yourself. Even gentoo would be bloated if you did emerge mozilla ; emerge galeon ; emerge phoenix ; emerge netscape ; emerge 10 more browsers. Clicking on the default everything like so many windows installs has taught you isn't the answer. Linux has 'choice'.
OK it's now (at the time it happened) Dec 10 2002 Mandrake 9.0 has been out for over 2 months. But what happened? Well even though SuSe and Red Hat both came out a month later it seems that the stores here in the Silly-Con Valley are still empty of Mandrake 9.0 oh yes there are still a couple of copies of 8.2, and people who are wondering why Mandrakes 8.2 is so far behind RedHats 8.0 (as far as kde etc go.) So what happens people download the product. Then once it's downloaded they don't need/want the boxed set... heck if you are a club member you get to download the "extra's" anyway so.. ah heck I'll just wait for 9.1 and see if that boxed set comes out... it's only a couple of months away right?
What does this show... simple economics rule #1. before you can sell something you have to have something to sell. It's now Dec 20th.. I went to Fry's today to get 9.0 boxed, the guy in the store said the 2 or 3 boxes they got sold right away and he doesn't expect any more till next year... And people wonder why MDK is in trouble....
I'm sorry, I'm to tired to be witty at the moment so this message will have to do.
"And you should leave Microsoft, DRM, and all of the other /. buzzwords out of this -- they are not relevant at all to the topic."
Funny, I always thought that MS, RIAA, and MPAA had crappy business models because they depend on controlling the masses when freedom appears to be an innate human condition. I guess the fact that they make billions of dollars automatically makes these "good" business models in your book. And how exactly to explain this to your children?
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
I know their page lists investor information too, but to me that looked as if they where only interested in people with much bigger pockets than mine or most other linux community members.
I got my start in Linux using Mandrake 7. The distribution was easy for a newbie like me to set up and I wasn't doing anything too terribly advanced. Dealing with RPMs wasn't even the biggest of my worries. I was on a dial-up connection, so all the added stuff ("Crap" as many others would call it) really helped to open my eyes to the world of open source software when I wasn't free to just download whatever I felt like. After their first call for help, I subscribed to Mandrake Club for $60. It was money well spent because without Mandrake I probably would've been coerced into paying far more for the latest and greatest from Redmond. So thank you MandrakeSoft for making such an excellent distro for "people like me" to learn on.
I'm on broadband now and have since moved on to the Gentoo distribution, so Mandrake won't be getting money from me this time around. However, my mom is still trying to learn the basics of Linux. When I get a chance to see her next, I'll put Mandrake 9 on her box and see where it goes from there.
Browsing through the posts at +5, slashdot is beginning to look more and more like people forgot there's more to free than beer.
Sad really.
Blearf. Blearf, I say.
Yepp, just another post from a happy Madrake Club member:
Remember: You get StarOffice for free, if you are a silver member. You can vote for the most important missing rpms. You get really good support. You get some rather big discounts on things like VMware, Tramsgaming stuff, etc.
It's REALLY worth the money IMHO and a wonderful way if you prefer ISO downloads to their CD boxes (the download is available sooner (which IMHO may be one reason for their financial problems) than the boxes and I want the money to go to Mandrake directly instead of 30-50% to Amazon or some other reseller, the CD maker and the book printer.)
And remember: Mandrake is a lot more open source friendly and fair to the community than e.g. OpenLinux.
Bye egghat.
-- "As a human being I claim the right to be widely inconsistent", John Peel
Nice Troll! Kudos to you!
No sig for the moment.
So if the true core of mandrake's distro is completely open-source, then they may be best off going bankrupt, and reemerging under a different name.
I don't think Linux will suffer a black eye from their financial failure. Bankruptcy is too common an occurence in the computer industry to be truly shocking anymore.
And the open-source nature of the software will show that bankruptcy does not strand customers of open-source. As long as the software is open, it can and will continue to be maintained by those who need it.
I feel for Mandrake, but they tried to make a quick buck and failed. I don't disparage that, but fortunately, with open-source, their financial mistakes don't have to impact their technological success.
evanchik.net
"No need to get sarky." I'm guessing this means sarcastic, and there's no arrogance involved. When people like yourself offer discouraging words about a distro, out of ignorance, you scare others away from trying it. There are a wealth of resources for newbies, particularly for Mandrake users. It's not a nightmare getting help at all as long as you avoid dalnet on irc.
Complaining that you'd spend many hours doesn't absolve you from doing it. If you want it trimmed down, do it. Every package describes what it does in the Mandrake installer, you just click it when you're selecting/deselecting it and you'll get a nice description. Now that you're armed with 20/20 hindsight, perhaps you can offer clues to others that may try it in the future.
I agree with your last statement though. Choice can be a double-edged sword.
If they cannot remain a profitable organization then let it die already. Man I really hate to say something like that but enough is enough. No amount of money is going to fix flawed management.
Got Code?