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Help Wire Remote Laos Villages
rODbegbie writes "Lee Felsenstein is appealing for donations to help provide Internet access to remote Laos villages. The New York Times considered the idea one of the best in 2002, but they need to raise $25,000 to get this in place before monsoon season. Donations can be made using Paypal (mention that it's for "Remote IT")."
Would be more then happy to send them a bunch of CD's if that helps.
I can't even afford my wired connection, let alone anone else's wireless conection!
Sorry to be stingey, but I need to read
HallmarkOrnaments.Com
Reagan closed the book on that in 1983 when he retrieved some 300 POW's.
Do they really want to do this before monsoon season? I'd suggest after myself...less damage to the wires...
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
People need food and shelter before they can worry about getting online. I know that it's stupid to say that they should be donating something else, but...it just seems like there's a huge push to get underdeveloped areas on the 'net instead of taking care of necessities first.
This sounds interesting, but what is the total value proposition for internet usage to a bunch of village farmers?
--------
Free your mind.
I don't think that Laos needs free Internet connections. I think what they need is houses, and a literacy rate above 60%. How do expect a small village, only 60% literate, to know how to use the Internet? In a country where the phones to people ratio is well over 1:100, I doubt that the Internet will be of must use.
I'll repeat what I said about India regarding the Simputer: there are more important things than the Internet. You know, food, water, shelter during the monsoon season
Most people in Laos don't have computers or even a need for one. Why would internet connections be "one of the best ideas of 2002"??
Is it going to tear down the newly paid internet access and require more donations?
I hear there's lots of UXO left over there from the Vietnam War era too. What's your point?
Wah!
Is this project at the behest of the villages or an outside person assuming only positive things will result? Cultures have been quickly torn apart by ideas which seemed positive to outside initiators.
This is just rediculous. Couldn't we focus on giving them something a little more practical like, you know, food, clean water, and medical supplies?
I'm just sick of the techno-fetishism that's taking the place of true humanitarian efforts and generosity. These people don't need cell phones and microwaves, they need basic living supplies. Let them establish some hygenic standards and bring the infant mortality rate down, and we can worry about convenience later. Never mind that the health effects of wireless networks have not yet been studied in great detail. For heaven's sake, we could be sending these people to their graves with invisible radiation!
The PayPal thing is just insult upon injury. I'll make my donations by check, thanks, so none of my money goes to line the pockets of some hokey e-business that can't even protect its own databases (and doesn't claim to!).
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
The NYT article then explains that the villagers are powering their computers using pedal-power. I wonder how long it'll be before they use pedal-power to power their cell-phones and pda's?
And I wonder if the amish will start using technology like this? I know they are (mostly) strictly against electricity, but this could be a loophole.
Sex - Find It
I just came back from a small village in Mexico about the size of this one. They have internet access now, but I have to ask: Do these people really need it?
These people have gotten along fine without computers, why do they need them now?
Sure, it is a nice convenience for tourists when they travel to these areas, but you can't tell me indiginious people, such as these, truely need internet access or computer usage.
It is human nature to take shortcuts in thinking.
Remote Laos villages?
Sorry but speaking as an American, I'm more worried about wiring remote US villages and schools.
Geez, I hope that PayPal doesn't freeze their funds on them.
I can't say that I don't give a fuck. I've just run out of fuck to give.
I didn't realize that Henry Blodgett was now at the New York Times!
I am getting really fed up with these appeals to make the general population of either our nation or the world PAY for internet access for others. Internet access is *NOT* equivalent to food or health care.
I realize we all feel the internet is a miraculous invention that is "setting people free." I generally hold this view as well. But it is not a necessity!
This reminds me of all of the extra fees on your telephone bill that were put there by Al Gore. Yes, the "creating of the internet" that Al Gore takes credit for is largely the sneaky tax increases he jammed through Congress by adding numerous fees to your phone bill. That money is then used as welfare to (supposedly) give free internet access to low income folks. That is *NOT* the proper role of government.
Similarly, bringing internet access to the jungles of Southeast asia is *NOT* the role of charitable organizations and it is certainly not the type of project that should be gobbling up the limited funds charitable people have to donate to causes in the world.
Internet access is a part of a nation's technological and industrial infrastructure that needs to evolve organically along with the rest of its culture. You cannot take a country that is 50+ years behind the western industrialized world and plop down mondern internet technology. It makes no sense and it is a huge waste. If you want to help these countries economically, you need to help them get a basic economic infrastructure in place so they can actually grow in a normal fashion.
This kind of crap is frivilous, back-patting BS being done by people who want to feel like they are "making the world a better place." In truth, they are accomplishing nothing.
If you want to help out people in the 3rd world, join the Peace Corps.
-Michael
Threshold RPG
Yeah, as in one who farms substance? You know, like uncontrolled substances? You know, like opium? You know, like those farmers who supply the world's thrid-largest opium producer (Laos for you slow ones out there) with the opium which is often turned into heroin? You know, substance farmers!
Read an interview here. /there/ during the genesis of the personal computer revolution.
Lee was involved in getting public access terminals deployed in the early 70's in San Francisco, created the Pop 'Tronics "Penny Whistle Modem" project, and the highly collectible SOL-20 personal computer, member Honbrew Computer Club - this guy was
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
Can't you tell by the fact that he puts spaces before the question mark that he's not on an American keyboard? Which leads one to believe that he is not American? Which leads one to believe that he took the time to learn our language, and the least you can do is shut the fuck up when he says something that doesn't sound right, but is in fact right, you're just too stupid to realize it?
UXO represents sins committed (if you want to be harsh) by leaders of the USA nearly 30 years ago. Most in power then are now dead. Many in power now opposed the war then and did all they could to remove from power the leaders who supported it (does the name "Clinton" ring a bell?)
A living POW represents sins committed RIGHT NOW by the POW's captors.
Get the difference?
You cannot equate the actions/opinions of a person, group of people, corporation, or government with the actions/opinions of a country as an aggregate. I don't think Lee Felsenstein tried to destroy Laos and most people in it. Therefore, you have no evidence his opinion on Laos has changed.
I wish there was some there was some way that I could be outside playing basketball, in the rain, and not get wet.
At least remember their names, what they did and what is known about their fates.
And of course ... more of my opinion on the post ...
Like I said to mandrake (a company) and many before on the slashdot donation network, NO ... the only thing that I donate to is things I can directly control. IE scholarships, trusts, etc. I wanna know who I'm benifiting not the well dressed president of the NON-PROFIT organization. I still can't believe the black-tie events I've been invited to in the name of "Charity" ... I love the fact that "feeding children" requires a fucking charity dinner ... how about this ... invite everyone to a charity dinner and then don't have one, make them see what it's like to be hungry.
As far as internet in Laos ... laughable ... I would really like to see the benifit of this ... not from the begging for money site too. Plus ... $25,000 because grants won't come in time ... pretty optimistic about those grants coming in.
You all really have money to burn after the holliday season? Why dontcha look at what's happening in your own backyard. Call your old college and tell them you want to start a scholarship (they won't mind really). Education is the key to it all, don't care what you say.
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
I live in a large US city, 20,000 ft from the CO. My only option is dialup.
If I move to a grass hut in Laos, I get high speed wireless.
Yeah.....
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
Are any safeguards in place, such as installing servers with closed relays and a truely-enforced AUP?
From snopes.com (www.snopes.com/spoons/felsenstein.html):
So, you see, it's an urban legend.You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
I've spoken out before that this is just a bad idea. Laos is a land with almost universal illiteracy, poor health care and few utilities like electricity and sewers, and now Felsenstein wants to set up internet for the elite ruling classes. I doubt that your average Laotian rice farmer will see much benefit from the internet, he's too busy farming when he has time to spare from caring for his malaria-riddled children. He'd probably prefer something more useful like some mosquito nets or a refrigerator. Most of these people are living in Stone Age conditions and people expect computers will improve their lives? They'd be happy to just move up into the Bronze Age, let alone the Computer Age.
r asia/l ao.htm
Send your money where it will do the most good. Laos needs many things before it needs the Internet. Here are some charities that spend their money directly on real-world projects like improving literacy through education, better sanitation and health care, care for orphans, landmine removal, etc.
Darunee Fund for Education in Asia (Laos)
http://www.daruneefund.org/asiamerica.htm
Project Happy Child Laos
http://www.happychild.org.uk/nvs/appeals/eu
CARE
http://www.care.org
UNICEF
http://www.unicef.org/
Of course, these are URLS from just a few minutes of googling, after weeding out the religious nutcase missionaries. Give your money where it will do the most good, where it can save a life. Forget computers and the Internet. They'll come to Laos when the Laotians are ready.
Internet is like fortune cookie without rest of meal.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
Cabling is a bit premature and NOT doing them a great favor.
Apart from the need to address the lack of food, shelter, clothing, education, uh, "somebody stop the shooting please," telephones that actually work, telephone lines that can actually carry a signal, a country side as rugged as it is lovely, swampy as it is drowned by occasional monsoons, rats the size of corgis, insulation eating cockroaches the size of Norwegian browns and a host of other disadvantages.
Its not a good long term solution. WiFi is better.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Yes, there no effort to wipe anyone out. It is still kind of amazing that more bombs were dropped on Laos than the U.S. dropped in all of WW II. I suppose carpet bombing really just means 'softer bombing'.
Its a commentary on the dependablility of the information found on the internet.
Without a corresponding web of trust...
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
into the discussions of people who didn't bother to follow up the links, but, here's a little snip:
"Of course, there'll always be someone who'll argue that providing this kind of technology to the least developed countries of the world is missing the point: that we should, as Bill Gates said recently, be spending our money instead on medical and food projects. And, of course, everyone involved in the Jhai project suggests we should do that too. But it's notable that it was the rural villagers themselves who asked for ways to communicate and gain knowledge, not the foundation."
There's a certain first world reverse snobbery going on when you send them a bag of rice, they say "Thank you, but what we really, really want right now is some effective means of communication," and you reply, "Well you upitty little pajama wearing dirt farmers. After all we've done for you already. Here's another bag of rice. Now shut up and be greatful."
Please note that this project was founded by a person who participated in the bombing of Laos in the 60's and now wishes to do what he can to make up for it. So let's all ridicule the hell out of him, ok? What the hell would he know about what they really need anyway, just because he's out there in the jungle with them?
Beyond that this is one of the most seriously cool hacks I've ever heard of, by one of the most seriously cool hackers ever, who was creating underground network hacks before most Slashdot readers had diapers to piss in and invented the portable computer.
They're not just buying some shit from Dell and shipping it over. They're scratch building it to meet local conditions, including the computer and power source.
If I had the money I'd be delighted to give them the whole wad, and deliver it in person to Laos, just to be able to help with this puppy.
KFG
But something's not adding up here.
...if you read the article, it says that "This year, they're living in the 19th century; next year, they'll be in the 21st," meaning that they're doing this right now with pencil and paper, or by oral arrangement. Why a pressing need to move them into the 21st century?
1) We're delivering internet access to a remote country to remote villages in a far-east Asian country. Villages in that area (Laos, Vietnam, Thailand) consist mostly of small farmers and laborers who have probably never heard of the internet, let alone a computer.
2) The reasons the villagers need computers are (taken from the article):
a: a way to make phone calls so that they could communicate with relatives overseas
b: to secure local crop pricing information.
c: the use of small spreadsheets and simple word processing so that they could bid on things like construction jobs.
A sounds understandable. B...that would work as an excuse here in America, but it doesn't make sense for Laos. Remembering some old cultural information, most farms there are very small-scale (a few acres at the most), meaning that farmers wouldn't own silos. Along with the lack of huge harvests, there's seems to be no necessary need for them to periodically check up on crop pricing. And option C?
3) Expenses (again, from the webpage):
a: $1,000 One RT US-Laos Trip for One Technical Consultant
Why are we paying a "consultant" to set up a single computer system in a remote village? Typically, someone who volunteers the time and energy to undertake such an adventure finds ways of appealing to travel agencies to cut expenses so that volunteered dollars go further.
b: $1,500 One Complete Jhai Computer
Why in the world are they paying $1,500 for a computer system for "the use of small spreadsheets and simple word processing"? Sure, many readers might think they're just buying a "new computer" without knowing how to get cheaper deals elsewhere. But the supposed letter has some very detailed information: "...interconnected by Wi-Fi (802.11b) digital data links and coupled to the local phone system several miles away. Through this system VOIP (digital telephone) calls could be placed to the local phone lines..." If they have that technical knowledge, they should know very well how to set up a cheaper computer system (As cheap as $400 for a new Lindows system including monitor, etc) that will accomplish the same thing.
c: $2,500 One Complete Village Set-up
What the hell is this? "Complete Village Set-up?" I didn't know that we were turning this into a profitable business when it involves volunteered donations! I mean, seriously, look at this supposed "line-item" description of what the project costs:
$10 20 lbs. shipping costs
$25 Keyboard
$50 Headset
$75 Antenna
$100 Battery
$250 Bicycle Powered Generator
$450 CPU or Mountain Top Solar Panel
$850 Base Station
$1,000 One RT US-Laos Trip for One Technical Consultant
$1,500 One Complete Jhai Computer
$2,500 One Complete Village Set-up
$3,000 Relay Station
$25,000 The Full 5 Village System
This sure doesn't add up to $25,000! And why does the village need a solar panel if they're going to generate electricity with a bicycle generator?
This list keeps getting longer and longer. Why are they setting up a wi-fi network when much of Laos is mountainous and forest? That kind of terrain will eat up any 802.11 communication!
On top of it all, how are they asking for donations? Through PayPal. A slick way of getting easy money, and an easy way to bag and run.
Now, I could be completely wrong, and all this might be an actual true organization with good intentions. But as I said before, something just isn't adding up.
With their pie-in-the-sky beliefs. Lets go give some Laotians Internet access! Nevermind the fact that there is no health care, no sanitation system, little education, diseases and very little food. Grow up.
(http://web.media.mit.edu/~nicholas/Wired/WIRED
To be fair, Negroponte got the 'how' wrong (he thought satellites would provide cheap internet access), but the why is spot on. People talk about how you can't leapfrog 50-200 years of development to catch up to the industrialized world
We talk about helping the poor in the US or in Europe
--I'm involved as a major hobby/avocation in my life with survival/preparedness issues. The internet has a wealth of information that these people can put to practical use in a "low tech" lifestyle. As pointed out in the articles, they can get better quality weather information, and seek out better markets for their produce and handicrafts. Perhaps better resources to find better seeds or better hand tools, lotsa stuff. How about plans to make home made solar cookers? And even getting an extra buck here and there from selling their stuff more efficiently means a lot to them. They can also find out better ways to get clean water, better and cheaper building techniques, they can use the net as a remote school for their children, they can find new alternative energy sources and techniques,etc,etc. Folks from those regions who are now living abroad can now maybe communicate cheaper via chat and email to the folks "back home", another plus. It's part of the need for better transportation and better communication that everyone needs-not just already "civilised" people. You can't advance as a people-at least economically- without more modern transportation and communications, it's hardly possible, and a "start" has a "beginning" to it, this looks like one of those "beginnings" to me.
All in all it's a "good thing". I'm also in favor of helping various people around the world in so called "third world" and "second world" areas make a better living for themselves at home so they are less inclined to emigrate to the US, and the good will garnered by them knowing they received a little help and notice from rank and file joe sixpack "rich americans" might help to offset this growing mistrust and hate they are developing-at least they can "see" on the net what's going on around the world and not be forced to "guess" or only know what the local fatcat exploiters tell them. If all ya got is the local warlord giving you info, "something else" might help out-maybe anyway.
What would be kinda neat is one year from now, some guy in one of these villages gets an account here and drops a story about what happened, how it helped his village, etc.
AM radios are cheap and can convey information from market to farmer. They can run on solar power. Books are cheap, presuming the people can read. I've dealt with Laotian charities, they report the teachers ask for BOOKS and mimeograph machines. They want to teach people how to build water pumps and sewers, not nuclear weapons or computer chips. AM transistor radios and cel phones are very cheap, and require little infrastructure.
I've donated to charities for Laos, they asked for textbooks, transistor radios, and batteries so that's what I gave them. Now all of a sudden they need the Internet? Who put THAT stupid idea in their heads? Sometimes the hype and BS of the Internet just appalls me.
What, like Henry Kissinger?
Wah!
Unless I can be proven otherwise, I will assume that those technological resources will only end up going to the rich and powerful of those remote villages. I was raised in a poor remote area of Europe and I have traveled extensively throughout poor areas of developing countries and typically -- this is what I've witnessed.
Funny that you mention the Peace Corps...I have a good friend who just ended his Peace Corps tour in rural Thailand (about two hours from the Laos border). One of the main projects he worked on was writing grant proposals to fund a similar wireless infrastructure for hilltribe villages. In this case, it was mainly for use as an intranet. Having quick communication is basic economic infrastructure.
I'll add that all of this was initiated by the hilltribes themselves. They see the benefits of technology and will probably use them in ways we don't expect, probably in ways a lot more useful than our websurfing.
Yeah, it makes sense to be concerned about who is running a charity. The reason I got interested in this particular project is because Lee Felsenstein is running it.
Felsenstein's already got quite the track record:
He ran the Homebrew Computer Club, and helped kickstart the PC revolution. His framework let Woz and Jobs sharpen the ideas for the Apple in front of a community of peers. His framework for the club emphasises open architecture rather than competition between inventors, something that you still see in the PC world. Basically, he's doing for Lhaos what he and a few others managed to pull off for the United States a few decades back. Oh yeah, and I remember the folk who said that putting a computer in your home was "laughable", and he asked to "really see the benifit of [that]".
Felsenstein also invented the first cheap modem, the first portable computer, and the first community network.He wrote presciently about the "Commons of Information", years before most of us had even thought about these issues.
I reckon I owe him ten bucks in just paying my backdues for the improvements he's already given my life. If he said he was doing the same for the Invisible Underground Mole People, I'd give him the time of the day.
But he's not. He's doing it for Laotians. The guy who runs the Jhai Foundation, Lee Thorn, is an old Nam vet. In case you don't know this bit of American history, the US dropped more bombs on Laos than the Allies did on Germany and Japan combined. They're still trying to clean up the munitions and put their country back together again. Thinking about it, I probably owe them at least a buck, too.
You rant about going to black-tie events, but when somebody asks you for cash via a thirdy-party Website run out of a DSL line, you're suspicious. Too suspicious, even, to do some basic research on the implications.
Damnit, boy, that's why they do those fancy dinners. So that touchy guys like you can be reassured that this a proper "above board" appeal without you having to bother doing any original thinking. You think your local college spends money more wisely, just because it's a college? You think that the banker at your trust knows what's being done in your name? How much money do you think they wasted getting you to think this way?
I didn't say give to a college, I said give to a scholarship. Aid a student who is trying to better themselves through an education.
A trust in the name of the owner can't just be moved by the banker? That money is yours or the person who owns it's account to do with as they please, 9 times out of 10 to help someone or something.
I never said I gave to black tie events either. I think you completely missed my point so I'm not going to hide them in vague sentences of explanation.
1. Make a difference in your own backyard. Increase the level of living for your next door neighbors in turn making your level of living higher (push pull action). Don't blindly give to some project for a country that is poor because of poor decisions of the past (remember how young even america is).
2. Don't come to slashdot looking for money, historically slashdot has refrained from making itself into a pledge drive, but low-and-behold a new trend is starting
3. Screw LAOS ... I think we as Americans have done enough in that part of Asia as far as lives spent and money as well. I know who was on what side, but I think it's time that we as Americans give it a rest in that part of the world.
4. I'm a greedy bastard who worked for his money and I know that all you have to do to make as much if not more than me is get off your ass and try.
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
I agree that surfing slashdot is a poor substitute for food, shelter and medical care.
But consider that access to the net can help with many of the basic things. You may not have a doctor, but you can find medical info on the web. You can learn new and better ways to grow food and build shelter rather than whatever your grandfather was taught by his grandfather.
And not least, by knowing about what goes on in the world, you can become a better informed citizen and less of a clueless and easily manipulated pawn of whoever is in charge.
and education before we hook them on the web ??
I really think the digital divide concept just goes to show how little the politico's actually understand or care about the real world average working joe. Kids are starving on the streets without medical care and we are worried about email access ? Granted some of these problems can be partially address via electronic education but the fundamental problems cannot be solved by web access.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
n/t
So... 35 years ago you decided that the Laotians as a collective whole didn't need internet access and therefore none of them can have it now?
Unless Laotians age in a manner much different from us I would guess that many of them (especially the younger ones) weren't even alive 35 years ago.
Also: think of the way you were 35 years ago, did you pick up any new skills in the meantime? Are your technological needs and wants the same as they were back then? Why then do you assume that the Laotians were stuck in some sort of time warp where things haven't changed in decades?
... I now know where to send some of the $30 MILLION DOLLARS that my dear friend Mr. Mboto of Nigeria will be wiring to my account very shortly.
Tuus crepidae innexilis sunt.
I'm being a drag, yeah, but there ARE more important things that WiFi in Chong Mek.
And to be selfish for a moment (I am an American after all), how about cheap high speed access for ME? South Korea has 8Mbps for $38 a month. I get 768/128kbps for $50. Thanks Telecommunications Reform Act! (And yeah, I voted for the guy that signed that one into law...)
jX [ Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler. - Einstein ]
That's my whole point too:
"Primative Societies" don't really NEED anything, they just are. People living within those primative societies, on the other hand, do have needs. Some of them certainly need water, some need medicine (the sick ones, anyhow), and some, at least one I'm certain, need internet access.
Here is a group of people, out of the goodness of their hearts, supplying a need that someone, or a few people, or hundreds of people, have. Its obviously not the need that you feel is most important, or directed toward those you feel are the most deserving. You are neither the giver nor the receiver in this case, so I fail to see why you should have a say in the matter.
I live in a rural area of Indiana just 8 miles from a city. No broadband (except very expensive satellite - of which one provider is shutting down: DirectTV satellite internet) and no prospect for such in the future. How about spending a little in the USA to bring access up to even UK standards? The UK seems particularly adept among Western countries in working to get broadband access to its citizens (despite problems with BT). In this country (USA) there is no drive at all to the point that it is a nonstarter for the most part.
How about the country that created the internet get on the ball and provide access to its own citizens to at least the point of Western Europe? I wont even mention Asian countries like Japan and S. Korea (and Taiwan?) which put all Western countries to shame with their incredibly high level of high speed connectivity.
I WANT BROADBAND, DAMNIT! Sprint USED to have a wireless service available that I would have gone with but they aborted at takeoff.
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
"White hippie" comes in and suddenly the village decides it needs to upgrade its image for the world, and wastes its money on TVs and toilets.
Werd. The white hippies are the first step in imperialism and capitalist homogenization.
While I am sure my presence was felt, I was there as part of a personal project studying the effect of development. Watching the white hippies.
People who live in primitive (by our standards) tend to be informed by the local leaders. In many cases whom which by idiology are very hostile to the 1st world. Either because of economics or religion.
Hardly all one way though.
To be able to get a foot hold in these places and give a voice to these people, alot of unfiltered info can be passes back and forth. The result hopefully is fewer trips abroad of our troops to have to go blow up foreigners.
Which might well be a, perfectly rational, reason for these people being hostile to the "first world". There are still plenty of people in Laos who can personally recall being bombed by the USA over some political idiology.
My God, if they live in a monsoon area, wouldn't it better for them TO MOVE WHERE IT FUCKING DOESN'T FLOOD AND DROWN YOU??!?!?!?
The monsoon area covers a substantial part of the planet. Whilst drowning might be a risk abundent water also helps with growing crops (especially rice). People have been farming here for a long time...
AM radios are cheap and can convey information from market to farmer.
Or any other people who need to communicate.
They can run on solar power.
Or a foot/hand turned generate, even clockwork. A radio does not require being able to read either...