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Using Bacterial DNA For Data Storage

NPV writes "January ACM Communications has an article on the use of DNA in genetically modified bacteria to store information. This is an attempt to achieve the ultimate in archival storage (one of the modified bacteria can tolerate 1000X more radiation than a human being). Now just suppose that the "junk DNA" in the human genome is the documentation package for the machine code. Who wrote that manual?" Here's the article abstract.

93 of 211 comments (clear)

  1. Of course its junk DNA... by packeteer · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I mean these bacteria have evolved for millions of years to be as streamlined as possible and yet i a few short years we can figure it all out and more. Also we can make it better of course.

    --
    unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
    1. Re:Of course its junk DNA... by zatz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not like copying some extra genetic material is that expensive for the cell. What's the selective disadvantage in having some superfluous introns (non-coding regions) in your DNA?

      We may not immediately be able to make natural organisms "better" in terms of natural fitness, but we can still make plenty of modifications which are beneficial to us. We can do it even without the use direct genetic engineering; we call that "domestication".

      --

      Java: the COBOL of the new millenium.
    2. Re:Of course its junk DNA... by packeteer · · Score: 2

      And of course domestication has never been anythig but pleasent for us. All i am saying is thatfor thousands of years scientists have been very wrong and we keep fixing that. Sometimes we find things that are most likely right but i dont think we get too exited and assume we know it all by now.

      --
      unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
    3. Re:Of course its junk DNA... by 0x0d0a · · Score: 5, Interesting

      To be entirely fair, they were using a brute force mechanism and dealing with a changing, hostile environment. We can use a controlled environment.

      Yet I don't see this hitting the market in the next ten years.

      I remember about eight years ago an article about how the future of storage was going to be in a frozen solid containing bacteria that change shape when a certain intensity of light hits them -- two lasers, each with half the requisite amount of light, would shine in to cause the bacteria to change shape where they met. Terrabytes in a little cube. Never happened.

    4. Re:Of course its junk DNA... by marshac · · Score: 2, Informative

      The thing about 'junk' DNA is that it's not junk at all. When you remove the 'junk', the organism dies. It's just junk until we find out what it really does.

  2. Gaia by Scaba · · Score: 2

    It reminds me of the planet Gaia in the later Foundation books of Asimov. Memories stored in all living things and in the very planet down to the molten core.

  3. Who wrote that manual? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Who wrote that manual?

    I think the important question is... who has IP rights over it?

    1. Re:Who wrote that manual? by mlush · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The Raelians, duh!

      Ha! Raelians can't read biology and think p53 is a new gene (first published 1984) that makes evolution impossible, cos its a DNA repair enzyme, which makes mutation and hence evolution impossible (1).

      Which is true in that DNA repair exists and p53 is involved in it (although its more involved in getting cells to commit suicide if there feeling a bit precancerous), but it won't stop genes mutating as all it does is checks/corrects DNA base pairing sometimes correcting it the wrong way creating a new mutation

      (1) under Evidence -> Science & Future -> Alt theorys of Evolution.... (F***ing frames)

      PS Being involved in human gene nomenclature I feel duty bound to mention p53 approved symbol is TP53.

  4. Who wrote that manual? by zatz · · Score: 5, Funny

    The Raelians, duh! That's how come Clonaid is so far ahead of other human cloning efforts... they read the documentation.

    --

    Java: the COBOL of the new millenium.
  5. No spy! You can't have it (swallow) by jpt.d · · Score: 2, Insightful

    .... ....

    Doctor, my stomach hurts! .... ....
    (1 year later)
    Plague Plague Plague!

    --
    What we see depends on mainly what we look for. -- John Lubbock Now search for that bug slave!
  6. Great! by Travoltus · · Score: 5, Funny

    So when one of these engineered bacteria wipes out the human species, and some alien species comes along and ganders a look, the bacteria will be carrying a precise record of how we humans fscked ourselves.

    --
    --- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
  7. Cheating possiblities by joelt49 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Disclaimer: I am not advocating any behavior whatsoever here :) Just think: We could store entire textbooks in our DNA. The professors would have no way of taking it out of us. That would be interesting. Not only that, but we could but tons of info there. The only problem is that we would need a way to access it.
    This is interesting though. What if the entire human population became just a storage bank? What if EVERY LIVING THING on Earth became part of this bank? That would be an interesting scenario. For now, though, I'll just stick to normal HD's. A big problem, I suppose, is in changing the data. I wonder how many bacteria they had to go through to get it right.

    1. Re:Cheating possiblities by baryon351 · · Score: 3, Funny

      ...and making backup organisms would be more pleasurable than waiting for a tape unit to finish whirring

    2. Re:Cheating possiblities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      So, a French Kiss becomes file-sharing.. Omigosh! MPAA and RIAA are not going to like this...

    3. Re:Cheating possiblities by justzisguy · · Score: 2, Funny

      Maybe not quite a storage bank...more like a computer. The greatest computer in the universe! Designed by Deep Thought for a few white mice to determine the Ultimate Question(TM) to the Ultimate Answer(TM) all so they could profit on some talk shows.

    4. Re:Cheating possiblities by CSG_SurferDude · · Score: 2

      The beowulf cluster allready exists....

      They found out the answer is 42....

      Then they made the cluster to find out what the questions really is.

  8. hmmm by zachusaf · · Score: 5, Funny

    so much for P2P networks, if anyone wants the new Apache release, I just sneezed.......

  9. Uhh, perhaps not. by smoondog · · Score: 4, Interesting

    (one of the modified bacteria can tolerate 1000X more radiation than a human being).

    I haven't read the article (don't have access to where I am) nor have I thought about this subject much, but one question I have is how the authors keep the sequences under selective pressure. DNA sequences are only conserved over many years if evolution needs them. Non-coding regions (So called "junk-DNA", poor choice of words, btw) would easily mutate into other sequences. One could imagine sequencing many cells, and infer the original sequence, but this gets more expensive as time goes on (as the number of sequences you need to sequence goes up).

    -Sean

    1. Re:Uhh, perhaps not. by iconian · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It seems more like the non-coding region uses the coding region to get itself around. "Life" as we define could just be a means for the non-coding region to reproduce itself. In other words, we could just be containers for these so-called junk regions.

    2. Re:Uhh, perhaps not. by smoondog · · Score: 2

      Actually this is not quite correct. As I understaand it, Telomerase shortening is a system engineered in the cells. Turn the system off, and telomerases don't shorten anym more. Mutations, on the other hand are difficult to prevent. This is because DNA damage happens spontaneously and often. This DNA damage makes fidelity very, very difficult. Our cells spend a lot of time preventing this.

      -Sean

  10. Don't wash your hands... by dagg · · Score: 2

    Because if you use your new computer after washing your hands with anti-bacterial soap, you could kill all the little buggers.

    --
    Sex - Find It
    1. Re:Don't wash your hands... by orthogonal · · Score: 2
      Because if you use your new computer after washing your hands with anti-bacterial soap, you could kill all the little buggers.

      Let me save /. some time and effort here:

      1. [Please insert one of

      smelly unwashed ego-maniacal GNU/lixux anti-Stallman
      or

      smelly un-washed Moutain Dew-swilling linux geek
      or

      smelly never-showering always-surrendering Frenchman
      'will be the only ones able to use this bacterial memory'
      joke here.]

      2. ???

      3. Profit.

  11. In other news... by pVoid · · Score: 5, Funny

    Scientist have discovered that humans and all life on earth was just a discarded bacterial disk drive from a geek with pimples living in his mother's basement 5 million light years from the solar system.

    1. Re:In other news... by Exiler · · Score: 2

      That's a little harsh, we may be rare in the real world but we do exist.

      --
      Banaaaana!
  12. So that's why by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Funny

    I think the back of my fridge has the Library of Congress.

  13. There is a kind of bactera by autopr0n · · Score: 5, Interesting

    That keeps four copies of it's DNA in rings and error checks constantly. They're probably using one of these, as it happens to be very radiation resistant, I'm guessing they used these, and so the mutation rate would be very, very low. So it wouldn't keep forever, but would for a very long time.

    You could also put error checking (parity, checksums, etc) so once you found some bactera you could check to make sure they had the right version and not a mutation

    --
    autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
  14. Bacteria Have No Introns and Other Considerations by mustermark · · Score: 5, Informative

    Just to be clear, no non-coding segments have been found in bacteria yet (last I heard). So putting data in as 'junk-DNA' in humans is quite a bit different from interrupting a fully functional bacterial DNA segment with the data to be stored.

    Also note that the introns in eukaryotes are highly mutable (look up 'tandem repeats' if you have the inclination), so the fidelity of the data would be sacrificed by putting it there. The longest lifetime for the data would be achieved by tricking the replication machinery into thinking the segment was an exon, which would involve tying it to a functional protein that would be absent were the sequence to be mutated.

    Duplication of the data would also work, but it would only hammer down the probability of mutation, since the probability of a point mutation of a base at the same location in two widely separated sequences is roughly 10^-18 to 10^-17 per year for exons.

  15. The "Junk DNA" by bahwi · · Score: 2

    I'm sure the Junk DNA in the human genome, if they have anything to do with the Secret Message of Pi, or the Intelligence In Pi, then I'm sure it's written in the English Alphabet because that's what our Alien(Raelian?) ancestors wrote in. Haven't you seen Star Wars or Futurama?

  16. The Manual by E-Rock-23 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Who wrote that manual?

    And where the hell did they hide it? I've been trying to figure out the human race (more specifically, the female of the species) for years. Chicks are always telling me to RTFM, so hurry up and fork that thing over so I can get ahead (bad pun intended) in the world!

    --
    Blog Prophyts - Right On, Man
  17. What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "the ultimate in archival storage (one of the modified bacteria can tolerate 1000X more radiation than a human being)."
    What kind of comparison is that? Are human beings presently used as archival storage in irradiated areas?
    Seems that the punched metal tape the Army uses for ultimate reliability is the way to go. Even if the stuff rusts, is radioactive and glowing red, you can still read it.

  18. No, you mean a virus by autopr0n · · Score: 2

    Actualy, I think you just don't know what you're talking about. But you could 'overflow' (I think) the non-coding region and overwrite a part of the bacteria's DNA with the DNA for a virus, and perhaps the virus would come alive once that bit got read.

    hrm...

    --
    autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
  19. We wrote the manual! by SHEENmaster · · Score: 3, Funny

    Don't you people watch the outer limits?

    I'll probably write this code in sometime in the future. Human cloning is stealing and I will sue your ass for infringement.

    --
    You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
    1. Re:We wrote the manual! by Styros · · Score: 2

      Don't you people watch the outer limits?

      I'll probably write this code in sometime in the future. Human cloning is stealing and I will sue your ass for infringement.


      Yeah, but then someone will hack your code, call it DeDNA, post it onto Kazaa, and then it's all down hill from there.

  20. After much testing... by Rui+del-Negro · · Score: 3, Funny

    Scientists have concluded that they can use a bacteria's DNA to store the complete description of... a bacteria. Revolutionary.

    What I really want to know is, can the same be done with the DNA of a bug? Because if it can, I'm going to buy some MSFT shares...

    RMN
    ~~~

  21. Re:Bacteria Have No Introns and Other Consideratio by Rainier+Wolfecastle · · Score: 5, Informative

    I think that you may have your terms a little mixed up. An intron is the DNA between exons (coding regions) in a gene. i.e.

    junk---junk---junk---exon-intron-exon-intron-exo n- --junk---junk---junk.

    The junk DNA often referred to is mainly intergenic DNA, and this is where most of the non-coding DNA is found. This also makes up the majority of the eukaryotic genome. Prokaryotes (bacteria) do contain intergenic DNA, but no introns.

  22. kind of ironic isn't it? by circletimessquare · · Score: 2

    because the reverse has been true since before we were human beings. that is, virii (i know, not bacteria, but certainly the same thing under the rubric of "bad guys" in the most pop science sense) have been storing their info in US since before we were human beings.

    it's only good hollywood movie justice that we should play switch up and start storing our information in THEM. ;-)

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  23. No, you didn't steal someone's yogurt by kfg · · Score: 3, Funny

    You just ate the entire sum of human knowledge. Nice work Sparky. Now you might want to go looking for a Tums and start polishing up your resume.

    KFG

  24. Re:dna in violation of dmca by fucksl4shd0t · · Score: 2

    It is only a matter of time before this becomes a violation of the DMCA.

    Now that you mention it, all the President has to do to get his way with contraceptives is get a law passed that says that every person immediately gets copyright over their DNA (grammar?). Then contraceptive devices themselves and even talking about them would be a violation of the DMCA.

    --
    Like what I said? You might like my music
  25. The Matrix... by darekana · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...if only the machines had used the humans for data storage!
    Morpheus coulda pointed to a SAN/NAS box!

    Instead they make a duracell commercial and mumble about the "human body generating more bio-electricity than a 120-volt battery and over 25,000 BTUs of body heat."

    Ok I'll quit ze bitching... it was spiffy anyway.

    1. Re:The Matrix... by isorox · · Score: 4, Funny

      ...if only the machines had used the humans for data storage!

      Just remember to feel sorry for the guy that gets slashdotted

    2. Re:The Matrix... by Wraithlyn · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yeah.. the fundamental reason why the machines kept the humans alive (energy generation) is a completely absurd contrivance. That always bugged me, but not enough to ruin the movie. It does force an unreal (In addition to surreal? Whoah...) feeling to the whole movie, makes you go, "OK, we're in comic book/fantasy land now". It's somehow not as gritty and dark as it could be if you could actually believe machines might eventually enslave (breed, really) our entire species in a virtual zoo for a reason you could actually swallow.

      They coulda used some wonky vague ass stuff about the machines figuring out a method of harvesting the untapped power of the human consciousness and I would've been happier... the mind could generate the power itself somehow (emotional energy perhaps?) or maybe act as a conduit for drawing energy from extradimensional space. It would also give em a reason to stimulate and develop helathy human brains via their Matrix simulation instead of just keeping em doped all the time.

      --
      "Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
    3. Re:The Matrix... by lameland · · Score: 2, Funny

      My complaint with it was, if all they needed was body heat and electrical impulses from our nervous system, why use humans? Why not use a large, stupid animal like cows?

      The matrix would have been easy as hell to code: a big field, lots of grass -- that's it. I don't think you'd have any bovine Keanu Reeves breaking out (although a cow that knows Kung-Fu would be pretty damn funny).

    4. Re:The Matrix... by matrix29 · · Score: 2

      ...if only the machines had used the humans for data storage!
      Morpheus coulda pointed to a SAN/NAS box!


      I think that was some of the subtext of The Matrix movie. Humans were used as storage and processing as well as batteries and capacitors.

      Remember the "power from fusion" line? Where exactly would you dump the extra electrical output until you required it later? You'd store it in a stable chemical form (catalytic thermal salts) or highly combustible forms (gasoline or hydrogen).

      Why else would the A.I. even BOTHER keeping the humans alive in the first place unless it was required to do so for its own survival. Note that The Matrix guardians were seeking the keys to the "Zion Mainframe" so they could "leave this world". That means it was trapped there because it could not leave of its own free will.

      I assume the sequels will go into more detail on this. Of course I COULD be reading the subtext wrong and misinterpret the "Zion Mainframe" as a mobile computer storage & processing ship in place perhaps of a worldwide space defense system in orbit or on the moon (thus preventing The Matrix's A.I. from leaving the planet in a more literal sense as all attempts to leave end up with it being shot from the sky).

      --
      "Face it, a nation that maintains a 72% approval rating on George W. Bush is a nation with a very loose grip on reality.
    5. Re:The Matrix... by Dirtside · · Score: 2
      ...if only the machines had used the humans for data storage!
      Yeah! Then we could make a Beowulf cluster out of Beowulf himself! Erm, wait...
      --
      "Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
    6. Re:The Matrix... by Kaz+Riprock · · Score: 3, Funny

      . It does force an unreal feeling to the whole movie, makes you go, "OK, we're in comic book/fantasy land now".

      Right...the leaping from building to building, spider robots, and 'faster than 5 speeding bullets' were fine...it was the human battery plot that made it seem like fantasy...

      --
      Mordor...a magical, mythical land where women are more rare than dragons--but where every man would rather find a dragon
    7. Re:The Matrix... by Wraithlyn · · Score: 2

      "Right...the leaping from building to building, spider robots, and 'faster than 5 speeding bullets' were fine...it was the human battery plot that made it seem like fantasy..."

      Well yeah, actually it was fine... :) The power jumping and bullet dodging and stuff merely took place in a SIMULATION. The Matrix. AI controlled virtual reality with a direct brain interface. Certainly conceivable within 40 years or so. And, the "spider robots" well, if you accept AI, designs like that, centuries from now, should be simple.

      But using human bodies to generate more energy than you put into them? Sorry, can't buy that. That's not a question of being too far-fetched, it's simply not mathematically possible.

      --
      "Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
  26. Bacteria dna code? by fucksl4shd0t · · Score: 2

    So, they decode some of the bacteria dna at some point thinking that maybe there's some important information left there, and they come up with:

    #include "stdio.h"

    void main(void)
    {
    printf("Hello, world!\n");
    }

    Now just suppose that the "junk DNA" in the human genome is the documentation package for the machine code. Who wrote that manual?

    The article posting was obviously just someone using it as a steppingstool to push their own preconceived notions of science upon us. I declare the article a troll.

    --
    Like what I said? You might like my music
  27. Re:Bacteria Have No Introns and Other Consideratio by skeedlelee · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Just to be clear, no non-coding segments have been found in bacteria yet (last I heard).

    My first impluse was that this is way off. I'm used to working with plasmids where frequently like 60% of the sequence is junk. They use E. Coli and D. radiodurans in the study mentioned in the article. A brief survey of E. Coli K12 (the parent of most common lab strains) sez that about 5-10% of it is non-coding. The old initial reference claims about 11% is non-coding, but a good chunk of that may be regulatory. The radiodurans genome is about 9% non-coding. The up shot is that there is actually a fair amount of 'junk-DNA' in (at least the Coli) bacterial genomes. Not a lot by human standards but enough to be able to squeeze in a chunk here or there if you're careful.

    Another impulse was 'gad... that made it into Nature!?' (the journal, the article cited is a self congratulatory summary of their Nature paper). A lot of it follows a well duh kind of reasoning. 'Well duh' science is often the really good kind, but I wasn't particularily amazed by this. The DNA manipulation methods are beyond standard now, the only really clever thing was proposing the use of radiodurans as the host. Even that was sort of obvious (a blazingly well studied organism that is transformable). The DNA -> text using a 6 bit space? Well if you've ever designed linker regions in proteins I'm sure you were at least thought about spelling out you name or something in amino acids (unless your name is BOB). In part this is because every one learns the amino acids by doing stupid things like spelling out their name. Few people actually do this, mind you, as it usually would have some deleterious effect, but the point is I'm sure they weren't the first ones to try something like this, probably just the first to get funded to do this explicitly. Their big addition was to come up with a 3-letter code that includes all the letters and, ooo, punctuation. Then they spelled out bits of 'It's a small world.' My point is that it's not that far fetched and a bit surprising (to me) that it made it to Nature.

    As to the utility of these things for information carriers... Mutation would be a problem in the long term. Sure radiodurans would survive nuclear war (these guys put cockroaches to shame) but they do it using lots of mismatch repair and recombinatorial repair methods. These are not perfect repair systems, they can and frequently do introduce many errors, especially in non-essential DNA space. Tying it to a functional protein isn't a bad idea, but unless the added sequence adds some survival advantage it won't enhance the lifetime of the measage (ie. if uncorrputed data gives an advantage then it is statistically less likely to propagate). Also, as you mentioned, the bacterium might notice long chunks (they're using 100 characters here) of useless DNA and excise it. For that kind of text, it might be better to just etch it into stone or something, at least you have some hope of seeing it intact in 2000 years.

  28. Since these are bacteria, it'd probably be like: by Dthoma · · Score: 2

    #include <sys/types.h>
    #include <unistd.h>

    int main(void)
    {
    int i = 0;
    for (i = 1; i <= 20; i++) {
    fork();
    }
    return 0;
    }

    /* Whatever made you think that bacteria wouldn't be ANSI compliant? */

    --

    Note to M1-ers: a curt but otherwise insightful message is not "Flamebait" or "Troll".

  29. what's kinda neat about that junk dna... by tfoss · · Score: 2
    Now just suppose that the "junk DNA" in the human genome is the documentation package for the machine code.

    On a more realistic note, that junk DNA is probably more like a revision history of life. Many scientists are of the opinion that a significant portion of the junk DNA is really the product of virus infection way back in the evolutionary tree. Many viruses can copy their DNA into the host's genome where it will be propagated throughout life, and potentially into offspring. If this infection happens in the wrong section of a host's genome, the DNA is never read and while the virus doesn't propagate, its DNA will. Do this over a time scale of millions to billions of years and you get a lot of leftover virus DNA hanging around silent.

    So basically, some large percentage of your DNA is really just virus turds.

    -Ted

    --
    -=-=- Quantum physics - the dreams stuff are made of.
  30. Prankster-prone technology. by Anand_S · · Score: 4, Funny

    "All right. Which one of you bastards put the penicillin in my hard drive?"

  31. Re:I wonder what bacteria would look like by orthogonal · · Score: 2

    I wonder what bacteria would look like if we were to store Microsoft[']s code in its DNA. Then give it a year to see what pops out.

    After a year, a new EULA pops out. If you want the Service Pack that fixes the compromised immune system DNA, you have to agree to the EULA, which installs the auotmatic apoptosis DNA, forcing what the EULA euphemitically calls a "planned obselescence of all cellular function" just in time for the rollout of MS-DNA 2010.

  32. Is there a connection here? by euxneks · · Score: 2

    So would Bacteria that had better information kill out the other bacteria with lame information?
    Sounds like a primitive form of Slashdot ratings!!

    --
    in girum imus nocte et consumimur igni
  33. Junk DNA isn't the manual for our genetic code... by Dthoma · · Score: 2

    ...it's the statically linked libraries!

    *ducks*

    --

    Note to M1-ers: a curt but otherwise insightful message is not "Flamebait" or "Troll".

  34. Its NOT junk DNA... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
    Its the CVS repository


    _

  35. Re:this idea was proposed in NYT millenium issue by jericho4.0 · · Score: 2
    Isn't it the final reason given for the existence of the human race in 'Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy'? That humans were created to carry a message accross time in DNA, but the reciver of the message had already known the content?

    Unless I'm totally wrong, of course.

    --
    "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
  36. Re:Since these are bacteria, it'd probably be like by giel · · Score: 2

    #include <sys/types.h>
    #include <unistd.h>

    int
    main(void) {
    fork();
    main();
    }

    /* It should be written like this: simple, accurate and destructive. */

    --
    giel.y contains 2 shift/reduce conflicts
  37. Old technology... by Anonvmous+Coward · · Score: 2

    People have been storing data via bacteria for as long as I can remember. Without fail, my mother always knew when it was time for me to bath.

  38. Reminds of that STTNG Episode by cosmosis · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Reminds me of that Star Trek episode The Chase, in which Dr. Galen, Captain Picards old Archaeology professor, found genetic data-blocks from various species around the galaxy stored in the junk portion of each species DNA, including our own. When a sufficient number of these data blocks were put together it completed a stellar map, identifying the precise location of the original origin of life on out planet and countless others. The jury is still out on the Panspermia Theory, but my own hunch is that there is lots of intelligence out there vastly older and greater than we are.

    Planet P Blog - Liberty with Technology.

  39. Great, we get a memory fault and.. by RumGunner · · Score: 2

    Hello, Black Plague!

    .

  40. Great by Cyberllama · · Score: 2

    Now you can write a virus that actually infects you. . .

    The right data "saved" creates some sort of deadly super-bacteria.

    Ok, maybe not. But it still seems like a bad idea for reasons I can't quite think of right now. . .

  41. Duplicate? by sheriff_p · · Score: 2

    I thought we'd already had the story about funny comments in code? I remember reading: // +5 Wand of obfuscation! hee hee

    in George W Bu... ooops, I've said too much

    --
    Score:-1, Funny
  42. The Matrix wasn't all that good by 0x0d0a · · Score: 2

    Seriously, what was *up* with that? I was thinking that too much was being made of the movie -- okay, good and new special effects, okay, grab a pretty basic philosophical idea, have some detailed fight scenes. And that makes it a great movie?

    I started laughing out loud when they did the power generation explanation.

    And when they started doing the "phones mysteriously transport you in and out of the Matrix" bit, the image that came to mind was the people first adapting to phones and thinking people could do things like poison them or reach through the phone across the phone line.

    I mean, as tech movies go, *Tron* was more plausible. Does none of this come off as *stupid* to anyone else?

  43. Can tolerate lots of radiation, but... by billstewart · · Score: 2

    Keep it away from penicillin, and harsh chemicals, and mutation-inducing tobacco smoke (as opposed to head-crash-inducing smoke for older disk drives.) And the term "computer virus" acquires a whole new range of meanings....

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  44. Instead of bugs in the code... by clickety6 · · Score: 2

    ... we can now have code in the bugs?!

    --
    ----------------------------------- My Other Sig Is Hilarious -----------------------------------
  45. The 'dog-ate-my-homework' of the 21st Century... by Cruciform · · Score: 2

    "But teacher, my homework mutated!"

  46. Re:quaternary vs. binary by reverseengineer · · Score: 3, Informative

    IAAB too (not the same one as above), and I have to say, sorry, you're wrong. Yes, adenine (A) pairs with thymine (T) and guanine (G) pairs with cytosine (C), but bases are not restricted to one strand of a double stranded DNA- A and T or G and C can be found in the same strand. In fact, there are some regions where sequences consisting of A's and T's or C's and G's together play a critical role, like a sequence of TATAAT (or similar) called the TATA box, which is recognized by RNA polymerase, and leads to initiation of transcription. Usually, all 4 bases are present in each of the two strands, and since there are three bases in each codon, 4^3, or 64, possible different amino acids can be coded for from a single codon. Now, there are only actually 20 amino acids that are coded for (there are a few exceptions to this that depend on specific context), so a few of the possible codons can be used to code for a stop in protein translation, and there is a redundancy built in called "wobble" that allows correct translation despite certain slight mutations.

    Now, although there are two strands in most DNA molecules, only one actually codes for proteins- the two strands are sometimes referred to as sense and nonsense (or antisense) strands. Both are involved in replication, however- a DNA helicase splits the two strands, each acts as a template for a new complementary strand. And both can and usually do contain all four bases, with the concentration of each base in either strand being totally independent. Since the two strands in a double helix are complementary, the amount of adenine must equal the amount of thymine and the amount of cytosine must equal the amount of guanine in both strands . In fact, recognizing this relationship led to the realization that complementary base-pairing occurs. The original IAAB is correct though- the genetic code is indeed base 4- although nature has chosen to not use it to its full potential (i.e. code for 64 different amino acids) in favor of building in some redundancy.

    --
    "FDA staff reviewers expressed concern about the number of patients who were left out of the study because they died."
  47. Re:quaternary vs. binary by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 2
    Well, correct me if I'm wrong mister IAAB, but ATG&C are paired with another. I don't remember which is paired with which, but let's say that A and T are paired, and G and C are paired. This would mean that A-T mean the same thing, and G-C mean the same thing, which results in you only having base-2.

    Let me club you on the head with some ASCII art:
    AAAAATTTATTTAAAAAAAAA
    TTTTTAAATAAATTTTTTTTT
    According to your argument, this sequence contains no information.

  48. True .... but what message to send?? by mlush · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Your right about Nature, to me its more New Scientist article (I recall seeing a paper in Biotechniques about encoding text in DNA some 5-6 years ago I think that was for copyright messages)

    Mutation may not be too much of a problem as you could reconstruct the data by sequenceing many different strains of the bug (sort of bacterial TCP protocol if the packet is corrupted sequence a different strain)

    What I'd like to know is what sort of data would you send? Encoding the data would be a bit of a fiddle.... but extracting the data would be a expensive, soul destroying project, reqireing late 20th early 21st centuary tech and if target decendants have that sort of tech there must be better ways of sending messages./P

  49. DNA and the secret of life by Bazman · · Score: 2

    Armando Iannucci had a comedy show on UK TV. In one sketch he explained how scientists were sending him his very own DNA code in weekly installmants, in the form of strips of paper that he was pasting up on his wall as a sort of decorative frieze. He explained how DNA contained the secrets to life, and the camera panned round the lengthening strings of letters as Armando read them off:

    ADDGCTCTCTDONTPISSITAWAYAGGGDTTDONTPISSITAWAYGGG CC

  50. The aliens beat us to it by sjames · · Score: 2

    All we have to do now is search the junk DNA in our own genome until we find that the encoded message reads:

    First Post!

  51. Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda.... by Dynedain · · Score: 2

    Crap....I knew I should have patented the idea when I had it....

    Talk about a great way to smuggle/hide data....in your own DNA..

    --
    I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
  52. Junk DNA isnt junk DNA by Zapdos · · Score: 2

    Research shows a gene repair role for the so called junk DNA. The junk DNA can jump to chromosomes with broken strands of DNA, slip into the break and repar the damage. This is an essential function in keeping the cell alive.

    ref Nature Genetics, 1 June 2002, pp. 159-165

  53. Sorry there are intron-like things in prokaryotes by upstateguy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Just had to throw in that there *are* non-coding intergeneic sequences (akin to introns) and bunches of other non-coding goodies in prokaryotes including bacteriophages such as T4 (look back to the mid-80's).

    And if you consider RNA editing (where the wacking out or modification of nucleotides prior to translation), you gain a tremendous amount of flexibility in the smaller genomes of these bugs.

    Of course, the long term storage they're looking at is best done by the spores of gram positive bugs, like Bacillus subtilis. When they're in this non-replicative stage, there is little chance of sequence alteration. And by having, some 10^8 spores around, even if there were a few mucking things up, the majority would maintin the original sequence.

    But engineering a bug to not alter sequences is much more difficult than knocking out RecA. :-)

  54. Re:Jesus fucking christ on a vibrating bed. by matrix29 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Nobody believes in 'junk DNA'. It's a stupid media buzzword. Ask any geneticist, any at all, whether they consider 'junk DNA' to be a misnomer or not. If the unknown equaled "junk", there would be no scientists. Go figure.

    This has to be the 434340930493rd article where the presenter considers himself clever because he sees an insight... that everyone else does, too. Give it up. The abstract is interesting, if lacking in news or useful information, but its presentation is nothing but annoying.


    The easiest way to disprove the "junk DNA" is to remove the "junk DNA" and see if the organism still works. Take for example a computer program where "junk code" is removed. If the program still runs then the code might not be important. However, the "junk code" could be comment code not removed by the compiler, error checking code (which will not activate unless the program hits an overflow then all heck breaks loose), or even just graphic data which would allow a program to run (but with a corrupted image display).

    The basic truth of "junk DNA" is that unless somebody has a "decompile into a higher level language" device then removed code could case all sorts of things to go GOOEY later on when certain conditions are met. Heck, if we look back at the early days of BBS protocols you'd remember the FOO junk padding code at the end of many ZIP files just to compensate for buggy data transmission protocols. That padding allowed a certain amount of send errors at the end of a file to be tolerable while keeping the important parts of the file intact.

    --
    "Face it, a nation that maintains a 72% approval rating on George W. Bush is a nation with a very loose grip on reality.
  55. Documentation in junk DNA: by Brian+Stretch · · Score: 3, Funny

    /* I know, I know, I should write more unit tests, but I've only got six days until my long vacation on the 7th and I'm not taking homework with me. Oh well, if I missed anything, it'll evolve. */

  56. So I don't jave a cold I have a database? by crovira · · Score: 2

    I've heard of having infectious ideas but...

    --
    MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
  57. Um... by argStyopa · · Score: 2

    Isn't anyone else worried by this?

    I mean, five minutes before they finally translate the data coded into these junk DNA, the Vogons are going to destroy Earth to make way for a Hyperspace Bypass.

    Well, at least Arthur will survive.

    --
    -Styopa
  58. Re:Bacteria Have No Introns and Other Consideratio by Rich0 · · Score: 2

    The longest lifetime for the data would be achieved by tricking the replication machinery into thinking the segment was an exon, which would involve tying it to a functional protein that would be absent were the sequence to be mutated.

    I think there might be a slight error in reasoning here. The mutation rate in exon DNA is probably about the same as the rate in most other regions of DNA. The reason you don't observe that many mutations in these regions is that this DNA tends to be very critical to the proper functioning of the cell, and if it changes the cell is going to be at a disadvantage, and is likely to die out. I don't think there is much evidence that cells control the mutation rate of coding sequences specifically. (There are known exceptions - such as genes used by animal (including human) immune systems which are intentionally scrambled during early development to ensure that animals can generate antibodies to just about anything, and that each individual has a unique set of cellular markers that identify cells as belonging to "self" (and hence not subject to immune attack). This is why organs from even close family members can be subject to rejection.)

    Of course, bacteria don't have introns, so the better analogy there is coding and non-coding regions of DNA.

    Here is the problem in a nutshell: The coding DNA in bacteria is HIGHLY optimized to do its job in the best possible way. If you want to store data in this region you would have to alter it somehow. There are two ways you can alter it:

    1. Changes that do not affect the biological interpretation of the DNA (called silent mutations).

    2. Changes that do affect the interpretation of the DNA.

    If you do #1, then there is no selective pressure for the mutations to stay around - they can mutate back just as easily as they could in non-coding DNA.

    If you do #2, then your new DNA is going to have a biological affect. It will either confer an advantage or a disadvantage or will be neutral. If it confers a disadvantage the cell won't be able to compete against the natural strain of the bacteria. I think you'd be hard-pressed to come up with a sequence that confers an advantage - bacteria are probably the most efficient machines on the planet and it is unrealistic that you're going to be able to come up with an algorithm that systematically improves them while being able to code information into their DNA. If the mutation is neutral you then have the issue of random mutations wiping out your data as in scenario #1 - the mutants wouldn't be at a disadvantage.

    The only way you can create stable sequences of DNA is to ensure they confer a selective advantage to the cell. The existing processes of mutation and natural selection have pretty much guaranteed that this isn't going to be easy to do - if mutations that confer advantages were trivial to generate they'd already have been generated in the past.

  59. Great. by jafiwam · · Score: 3, Funny

    The perfect match between biological weapon and porn collection... puts a whole new meaning to the phrase "Infected by Anna Nicole Smith" don't ya think?

    Open Source software downloaded by a simple handshake or sneeze!

    Then, when Microsoft gets in on the new industry (2 years too late as usual) all life on earth will be wiped out by an unchecked buffer overflow in blank bacteria media as it is sequenced by default when accessed by any device.

    Seriously though, I wonder what the maximum storage capacity of something like that would be? How much data could be packed into a bacteria sequence? Would there be a really high read/write time to sequence the DNS? What about seek time? "Godammit come back here you bug!"

  60. Re:Reminds of Gel Packs by lugonn · · Score: 2

    The Enterprises Gel Packs are living tissue that is part of the computer memory. Never said if they were Bacteria or Neurons though.

  61. A new excuse not to go to work by Control-Z · · Score: 2

    "I can't come to work today, I had my machine apart and accidentally inhaled some of last year's financial reports, and now I'm sick."

  62. Good grief--this got past the ACM editors? by g4dget · · Score: 2
    For very long-term storage and retrieval, encode information as artificial DNA strands and insert into living hosts. As vectors, bacteria, even some bugs and weeds, might be good for hundreds of millions of years.

    It's inappropriate to refer to organisms as "bugs and weeds" in a biological context, not because it might hurt someone's feelings, but because it is biologically meaningless.

    The idea itself is old and has been bounced around by SciFi writers as well as scientists. Whole stories have been written about ancient civilizations or space aliens encoding messages in DNA.

  63. Re:Bacteria Have No Introns and Other Consideratio by mustermark · · Score: 2

    I think that you may have your terms a little mixed up. An intron is the DNA between exons (coding regions) in a gene. i.e.

    Note I never said that introns were junk-DNA, and I don't even like that term. Perhaps I should have said 'non-functional' vs. 'functional' DNA.

  64. Re:Bacteria Have No Introns and Other Consideratio by dillon_rinker · · Score: 2

    For that kind of text, it might be better to just etch it into stone or something, at least you have some hope of seeing it intact in 2000 years.

    Photolithography on aluminum plates for long-term data storage. It's been done.

  65. Re:Bacteria Have No Introns and Other Consideratio by mustermark · · Score: 2

    My first impluse was that this is way off. I'm used to working with plasmids where frequently like 60% of the sequence is junk. They use E. Coli and D. radiodurans in the study mentioned in the article. A brief survey of E. Coli K12 (the parent of most common lab strains) sez that about 5-10% of it is non-coding. The old initial reference claims about 11% is non-coding, but a good chunk of that may be regulatory. The radiodurans genome is about 9% non-coding. The up shot is that there is actually a fair amount of 'junk-DNA' in (at least the Coli) bacterial genomes. Not a lot by human standards but enough to be able to squeeze in a chunk here or there if you're careful.

    This is fascinating. Still, I wouldn't say that regulatory DNA is 'junk'. And the other small fraction whose purpose is not understood may well be functional, right? It would be an interesting experiment anyway.

  66. Re:Sorry there are intron-like things in prokaryot by mustermark · · Score: 2

    And if you consider RNA editing (where the wacking out or modification of nucleotides prior to translation), you gain a tremendous amount of flexibility in the smaller genomes of these bugs.

    Are you sure about RNA editing in bacteria? The rate of ribosomal attachment to a free RNA strand is very high, and it is unlikely that you can preserve the free mRNA long enough (without a nucleus) to edit it. At least that's the dogma I was taught. If you know a way, then please tell ...

  67. Re:Bacteria Have No Introns and Other Consideratio by mustermark · · Score: 2

    Your #2 was what I was implying. Bacteria have such highly optimized genomes that inserting a data storage sequence would most certainly change the evolutionary fitness of the organism. In that way, you can possibly escape mutation degradation. In eukaryotes its much trickier, but there are plenty of highly conserved locations in the genome. Take the histone proteins for example.

  68. The Nature connection by alienmole · · Score: 2
    Another impulse was 'gad... that made it into Nature!?' (the journal, the article cited is a self congratulatory summary of their Nature paper).

    What are you referring to? In the article that appears in ACM Communications, it says:

    " Nature magazine reported a study [1] resembling the first part of our effort - encoding meaningful information as DNA sequences [in a naked DNA strand...] In fact, a naked DNA molecule is easily destroyed [...] Our solution is to provide a living host for the DNA that tolerates the addition of artificial gene sequences and survives extreme environmental conditions."
    The cited Nature article has a completely different set of authors (Taylor, Risca, Bancroft) from the ACM article (Pak Chung Wong, Kwong-Kwok Wong, Harlan Foote). Based admittedly on the authors' own claims, the ACM article seems to go significantly beyond the Nature article (the latter sounds like as much a test of the US Postal Service than anything else!)
  69. Re:Bacteria Have No Introns and Other Consideratio by Rich0 · · Score: 2

    Bacteria have such highly optimized genomes that inserting a data storage sequence would most certainly change the evolutionary fitness of the organism. In that way, you can possibly escape mutation degradation.

    I think you missed my point (or I didn't explain it well). If the addition of the data changes the evolutionary fitness of the organism, it is almost certain that it will be in a negative way. If that is the case, then your new organisms will tend to mutate back to the state they started in if possible (though that will be slow). If released into the wild, your engineered bacteria would be overrun by wild-type bacteria, which don't have the crippled genes.

    As far as histones go - just try to introduce a non-silent mutation into an exon of one of those genes. They are likely to be VERY picky about changes, and you might be lucky to get anything to grow at all...

  70. Re:Bacteria Have No Introns and Other Consideratio by Dirtside · · Score: 2

    I'm curious; has anyone tried removing all the "non-coding DNA" from a bacterial DNA sequence, and then seeing whether the bacteria function normally? Or do we think it's noncoding because we never see it get used?

    --
    "Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
  71. Re:Bacteria Have No Introns and Other Consideratio by mustermark · · Score: 2

    I think you're exactly right. I was assuming that a way could be found to make the organism fitter w/the addition of the data. I admit that would be extremely hard (if not impossible), but it's the only assumption we can work on, since even silent mutations can be eliminated by genetic drift (in small bacterial colonies anyway).

  72. We're just storage for supa-smart aliens by ziriyab · · Score: 2
    Now just suppose that the "junk DNA" in the human genome is the documentation package for the machine code.

    Or maybe our DNA is being used as storage for some supa-smart aliens -- probably ones who can spell super...or galaxy's ;)