Seagate Barracuda V Serial ATA Drive Reviewed

And I'll never never know by gazbo · 2003-01-17 01:03 · Score: -1, Redundant

what you never never never want to know when you know what you are-o.

Serial? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:04 · Score: 1, Funny

I always thought parallel was faster

*shrug*

Re:Serial? by ultrabot · 2003-01-17 01:11 · Score: 1

It's not. Think USB. Parallel data transfer is more error-prone.

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Save your wrists today - switch to Dvorak
Re:Serial? by jpop32 · 2003-01-17 01:19 · Score: 5, Informative

I always thought parallel was faster

Yes, provided they both run on the same clock speed. In this particular case they're not. :-)

When you ramp up the clock speed of the parallel bus you get all sorts of problems (synchronisation issues, multiple wires affecting each other's capacitance, inductivity and such). One way of avoiding those problems was UltraATA's 80 wire IDE cable. And that came with increased price tag, and didn't ultimately solve all the problems, it just postponed them for a generation or two.

The other way was to abandon parallel all the way and go serial. Since with serial (one pair of wires) you don't get any above mentioned problems you can ramp up the clock much higher, and thus get better thrhoughput, although you're transfering just one bit at a time.

At first it sounds counter-intuitive, but it just goes to how much intuition is worth. :-)
Re:Serial? by hamjudo · 2003-01-17 01:24 · Score: 3, Informative

Don't think USB, think gigabit ethernet if you want to think of a fast serial protocol.
Oh wait, too early in the morning. Was the USB comment a joke?
If you want a fast parallel protocol, think about trunking multiple gigabit ethernets. Instead of running bits in parallel, you run packets in parallel. You get more bandwidth, without having the timing issues of a bit level parallel cable.
Running multiple serial links in parallel is also a win for fault tolerance. If one cable is sliced, the connection is still up, just slower.
I don't expect to see multiple SATA cables to a single drive, but I wouldn't be surprised by multiple SATA cables to a RAID array.
Re:Serial? by mmol_6453 · 2003-01-17 01:32 · Score: 2, Informative

AFAIK, there's always one cable per SATA drive, all cables going back to the controller.

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Re:Serial? by stud9920 · 2003-01-17 02:39 · Score: 1

I always thought parallel was faster
Yes, but if it's already parallel, there's no point of building a Beowulf cluster of them.
Re:Serial? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 02:44 · Score: 0

Don't think USB, think gigabit ethernet if you want to think of a fast serial protocol.
??? Gbit Etherenet uses all 4 pairs of the cable = Paralel.
Re:Serial? by The_K4 · 2003-01-17 03:38 · Score: 2, Informative

You forgot the other big advantage.....nice thin wires that are easier work with in the case. I KNOW someone will mention the round ATA cables, but those don't bend so well. The S-ATA wires are more like the wires for the CD-Soundcard. They are much easier to work with. :)
Re:Serial? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 03:44 · Score: 0

And, no chance for us slashdotters... :(
Re:Serial? by minektur · 2003-01-17 04:09 · Score: 2, Informative

All 4 'cables' in my fiber-optic patch-cord? Not all the world is copper.

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Re:Serial? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 07:12 · Score: 1, Interesting

Now why couldn't they just have used Firewire without doing a knock off of it?

If they just went with firewire, we'd still need converters for about the same price, and with all that mass production, firewire would be the same cost.
The same ATA protocol can go over firewire.

Then we would not be stuck INSIDE the case; would only need 1 type of controller chip, and could do non-hard drive related things with those busses...
Saving us money, size, power, heat, on the motherboards!

Besides isn't firewire multiple frequency? Meaning that the 100,200,400,800 mbps serial speeds do not interfere with each other.

Question for the dumb among us (ie: me!) by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:05 · Score: 0, Redundant

Why is this serial stuff so much quicker than the older parallel connections?

Re:Question for the dumb among us (ie: me!) by CableModemSniper · 2003-01-17 01:08 · Score: -1, Troll

Well you see it all has to do with the latency of the ATA controller. Basiclaly in a Parrallel situation you have dual DACs vying for data flow control. It works, but it is incredibly slow. In the case of Serial ATA you have a single, very fat pipe, you should realize I am trolling, that lets a lot of data through very quickly. This unfortunatly cause some issues with file-locking under slower implentations, thankfully SATA controllers and HDD are now fast enough to overcome these issues. As always YMMV.

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Why not fork?
Re:Question for the dumb among us (ie: me!) by altgrr · 2003-01-17 01:11 · Score: 5, Informative

The problem with parallel data transfer is that, if you have lots of data channels running at the same time, you have to synchronise the arrival of all this data. It's very difficult to do this at high speeds (if you look at your motherboard you'll probably find a few places where the track wiggles back and forth to synchronise the arrival of data).

In recent years, it has become possible to run data connections at very high speeds - but only when you have only one data line. A USB 1.0 connection is comparable in speed to an ECP parallel connection, and there are far faster serial technologies nowadays.

--

Like car accidents, most hardware problems are due to driver error.
Re:Question for the dumb among us (ie: me!) by gazbo · 2003-01-17 01:11 · Score: 5, Informative

It's about synchronisation. In a parallel system, the controller has to ensure that there are no race conditions, as the data is flowing two ways and must be synchronised properly - deadlock is impossible, but race conditions are *very* common, which can slow the system right down. It is possible to write an efficient synchronisation algorithm (Dijkstra wrote an O(ln n) one, I believe), but it is processor intensive, so virtually all controller cards are without, offloading the task onto the CPU.
This is one reason why SCSI is so much faster/more expensive; all scsi controllers have this functionality so throughput is maintained even when the parallel data is clashing.
Whilst serial is theoretically slower than parallel, by removing these synching issues you can guarantee better performance in consumer-priced hardware. At the server end, SCSI will remain as price is less important than performance, and as I said, parallel is still more efficient if it has a decent sych algorithm *on board*.
Re:Question for the dumb among us (ie: me!) by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:15 · Score: -1, Offtopic

What's the big deal?What's the big deal?What's the big deal?

The big deal is:

Forget everything you know about /.! Slashdot is a mere shadow of itself.

A NEW SITE IS BORN - A NEW SITE THAT WILL RULE! Gentlemen, point your browsers to this address!

A new site for intelligent individuals! Spread the word!
Re:Question for the dumb among us (ie: me!) by Ivan+Raikov · 2003-01-17 01:16 · Score: 2, Informative

Why is this serial stuff so much quicker than the older parallel connections?

Parallel bus interfaces are much harder to get to work properly, because usually there are very small differences in the lengths of the individual wires in the ribbon cable and so the signal delay varies from wire to wire; so you have to design your controllers to account for these delays (and that's why there was so much voodoo magic involved in configuring early SCSI equipment). The practical limit of synchronous transmission rates is much lower for parallel than it is for serial. That's why Ethernet and FireWire are serial interfaces.

--
Bush Lies Watch
Re:Question for the dumb among us (ie: me!) by i+chose+quality · 2003-01-17 01:16 · Score: -1, Flamebait

RTFA

(when it's no longer /.ed)

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i am not at it
what a waste of ressources
Re:Question for the dumb among us (ie: me!) by kahei · 2003-01-17 01:19 · Score: 0, Redundant

It's not; the limiting factor is disk speed, not connection speed, and that's likely to stay true for a long time.

This is just an iteration of the general serial-parallell-serial alternation that comms technologies tend to go through.

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Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
Re:Question for the dumb among us (ie: me!) by Detritus · 2003-01-17 02:45 · Score: 0

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.

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Re:Question for the dumb among us (ie: me!) by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 02:50 · Score: 0

Stupid moderators. Informative because he used some fancy technical sounding words? Extrapolating (can I get a +1 informative for that one?) from the knowledge which most people exhibit in discussions about storage and communication systems, there will soon be a course named "IT Voodoo Priesthood" available at a college near you. Maybe even "The truth behind superstition: Does your computer really hate you?"
Re:Question for the dumb among us (ie: me!) by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 03:33 · Score: 0

I think you really mean: If you can't baffle them with brilliace, riddle them with bullets.
Re:Question for the dumb among us (ie: me!) by Dirttorpedo · 2003-01-17 03:44 · Score: 1

Only one device transmits on a parrallel bus at a time. (SCSI, PCI). Devices use some kind of HW based arbitration to decide whose turn it is. There are usually a couple of extra lines in the bus for this purpose. Traces on motherboards are the same length to prevent skew in the differential signals.
A differential signal has a pair of signals and the value (1,0) is determined by the voltage difference. SATA, SAS, Fibrechannel, and GIGe are all 10b/8b serial protocols that use a differential pair to send a signal, so board traces must be identical for these serial transports also. For more info contact your local EE.
Re:Question for the dumb among us (ie: me!) by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-18 06:44 · Score: 0

Oh cmon', I wanted to get upmodded for this at least *once* before it was suppressed :). I thought it was pretty good. I guess next time I shouldn't actually tell the mods I am trolling, I guess they read a little more carefully than that.

SLASHDOT KILLER IS HERE NOW! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:06 · Score: -1, Troll

Forget everything you know about /.! Slashdot is a mere shadow of itself.

A NEW SITE IS BORN - A NEW SITE THAT WILL RULE! Gentlemen, point your browsers to this address!

Finally a site for intelligent individuals! See you there! Spread the word!

Re:SLASHDOT KILLER IS HERE NOW! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:39 · Score: -1, Offtopic

Interesting... what software is that running? Obviously not slash, scoop or nuke.
Re:SLASHDOT KILLER IS HERE NOW! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 04:49 · Score: 0

lol I already know science.box.sk for almost 2 years!!
Re:SLASHDOT KILLER IS HERE NOW! by RyuuzakiTetsuya · 2003-01-19 10:22 · Score: 1

I'd hate to point out that Science.box.sk's main headline as of this writting is a headline that's been on slashdot for atleast a day.

--
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.

SATA not very useful now, is it? by squirmee · 2003-01-17 01:07 · Score: -1, Redundant

So you get drives that fit into smaller cases (the cable takes up less room). What's the big deal?

Re:SATA not very useful now, is it? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:10 · Score: -1, Offtopic

What's the big deal?

The big deal is: they make less noise.

Forget everything you know about /.! Slashdot is a mere shadow of itself.

A NEW SITE IS BORN - A NEW SITE THAT WILL RULE! Gentlemen, point your browsers to this address!

A new site for intelligent individuals! Spread the word!
Re:SATA not very useful now, is it? by toni · 2003-01-17 01:14 · Score: -1, Troll

SATA also gives better real-world performance (as opposed to more theoretical bandwidth) by enabling tagged commands, better bus-master transfer (both have been the real reasons behind SCSI's until-now superior performance), and gets rid of the ancient C/H/S addressing scheme, thus paving a smoother road towards ever larger and larger disks without having to invent yet another kludge scheme to make it work.
Re:SATA not very useful now, is it? by toni · 2003-01-17 02:54 · Score: 1

I guess giving technical facts is something the slashdot community is not prepared for, they consider it trolling. Oh well, you cannot please everyone.

And the obligatory quote... by Omkar · 2003-01-17 01:08 · Score: -1, Offtopic

640K should be enough for anybody.

Re:And the obligatory quote... by ackthpt · 2003-01-17 01:59 · Score: 0, Offtopic

640K should be enough for anybody.
That's system memory, you mean 30MB should be enough for anybody.
It's rather mind numbing to see the density of today's drives and recall when an entire information system ran in 128K Words (256KB) of memory and on two DEC RP04 88MB hard drives (I performed the offline backups myself, oof)
Besides, Gates denies ever making that statement, but more humorous, "The next generation of interesting software will be done on Macintosh, not the IBM PC."-- Bill Gates, 1984

--

A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar

Three Generations... by ackthpt · 2003-01-17 01:10 · Score: 1, Redundant

Three generations mean you can buy SATA three times. The SATA controller I have is only version 1. So I'll stick my neck out and suggest that 2 and three will parallel the release of their respective drives.

--

A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar

Re:Three Generations... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 02:40 · Score: 0

There have been about ten versions of the old paralel ATA too, dumbass. Are you saddened by the fact that the original spec has been extended from 3MB/s to where it is now?
Re:Three Generations... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 02:44 · Score: 0

I can't wait to put a Serial ATA version Nine drive, SATAN drive, in my computer!!!!

15-Pin Power Connector? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:10 · Score: 1, Interesting

What's all that about then?

Hardware monitoring maybe?

Is there some new power standard about to be unleashed on us?

Re:15-Pin Power Connector? by Max+Romantschuk · 2003-01-17 01:39 · Score: 3, Informative

If I remember things correctly this is to make it possible to run many different voltages (something like 3) to the drives, suitable for different sized drives.

The spec can be downloaded here (about 1 meg), if someone cares to verify my claims. It's all there.

--
.: Max Romantschuk :: http://max.romantschuk.fi/
Re:15-Pin Power Connector? by uradu · 2003-01-17 01:49 · Score: 3, Insightful

> 15-Pin Power Connector? What's all that about then?

That's what I thought, too, when I first saw the new connectors. It seems we're trading huge data and slim power connectors for slim data and huge power connectors. Why didn't they take this opportunity to move entirely to 5V drives, just like notebook drives, and have a single power connector? Yeah, they'd have to design entirely new drives rather than just slapping on new drive electronics, but it took long enough even as it is, so they might as well have.
Re:15-Pin Power Connector? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 02:58 · Score: 0

Yep, acording to the specs this is correct. Following is the text from the specs:

P1 V33 3.3 V power
P2 V33 3.3 V power
P3 V33 3.3 V power, pre-charge, 2nd mate
P4 Gnd 1st mate
P5 Gnd 2nd mate
P6 Gnd 2nd mate
P7 V5 5 V power, pre-charge, 2nd mate
P8 V5 5 V power
P9 V5 5 V power
P10 Gnd 2nd mate
P11 Reserved 1. The pin corresponding to P11 in the backplane receptacle connector is also reserved
2. The corresponding pin to be mated with P11 in the power cable receptacle connector shall always be grounded
P12 Gnd 1st mate
P13 V12 12 V power, pre-charge, 2nd mate
P14 V12 12 V power
P15 V12 12 V power
Re:15-Pin Power Connector? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 04:51 · Score: 0
Why didn't they take this opportunity to move entirely to 5V drives, just like notebook drives, and have a single power connector?
Can a 5V power connector drive a 7200RPM drive (current) or a 10000RPM drive (future)?
Speaking simply (I'm not an EE):
- I used to remembered playing with little DC battery-powered electric motors as a kid. With a 1.5V battery, the motor would spin slow. When I used a 9V battery on the same motor, the motor would spin fast.
Laptop hard drives are slow. Desktop hard drives are getting faster. We may still need 12V.

We need new power connector standards, though. Those bulky hard-to-fasten, hard-to-pull-apart connectors are such a pain. Most of my hand flesh wounds from working on computers happen when I'm trying to unplug a stubborn power connector and scraping my hand on case metal when it comes loose.

Serial ATA has a long way to go! by Angry+Black+Man · 2003-01-17 01:10 · Score: 0, Redundant

Of course Serial ATA is going to be great when they get all the kinks out but for now, the Seagate Barracuda is barely faster than the WD SE drives with 8mb cache (which is a bit cheaper for now).

--
the byproduct of years of oppression by the white man

Re:Serial ATA has a long way to go! by DrFrasierCrane · 2003-01-17 01:19 · Score: 1

Sounds terrific, but where's my reason to get version 1 when they have multiple versions planned? Why be an early adopter and then have it obsoleted?

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Re:Serial ATA has a long way to go! by Savage-Rabbit · 2003-01-17 01:36 · Score: 1

"the byproduct of years of oppression by the white man"

What??? Serial ATA??? :-D

--
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
Re:Serial ATA has a long way to go! by salamander_sjv · 2003-01-17 01:37 · Score: 5, Informative

The Seagate drives may be a tad slower, but if you want to build a home multimedia server that will sit in your living room, they have the benefit of being unbelievably quiet.

At 24dB, you have to put your ear to a Barracuda drive to hear it, whereas the Western Digital drives put out a whopping 39dB!
Re:Serial ATA has a long way to go! by Gothmolly · 2003-01-17 02:05 · Score: 0, Offtopic

1. Mark him as a foe
2. Let Slashcode moderate him off the page.
3. ??
4. Profit!

Of yeah, and in Soviet Russia, something something something...

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I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
Re:Serial ATA has a long way to go! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 02:35 · Score: 0

It's just a sig....
Re:Serial ATA has a long way to go! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 04:16 · Score: 0

Maybe, but with all my fans going I can't even hear my WD hard disks ;)
Re:Serial ATA has a long way to go! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 12:29 · Score: 0

Yeah, but a flame-bait one.

FIRST PAGE WIDENING POST ... ITS BAAACK! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:11 · Score: -1, Offtopic

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Re:FIRST PAGE WIDENING POST ... ITS BAAACK! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:21 · Score: -1, Offtopic

Was that supposed to widen the page or something?

If it was, it was as big of a failure at doing that, as you have been in everything else you have attempted in your pathetic little life...

Performance? That's not why I want it... by MartyJG · 2003-01-17 01:12 · Score: 5, Interesting

I'm not so much interested in the performance advantages of S-ATA, rather the fact that it finally kills off ribbon cables. It must be the most limiting factor inside any desktop PC. In my tower I have trouble making even long cables reach drives at the top of the case, so they have to be mounted halfway down. In my Shuttle XPC the cables are shorter, but even they have to be 'rounded' and routed around clips to reach the combo drive without taking up all the space inside. Other people complain about the airflow restrictions several ribbon cables cause inside a machine.

In short, I don't care that (Gen-1) S-ATA starts at 150mb transfer instead of 'older' 133mb. I care that it makes building a PC easier, more space inside future barebones machines and PC manufacturers can use more interesting cases than the usual rectangular stuff. I'm excited about the possibilities it offers right now.

--
insignificant sig

Re:Performance? That's not why I want it... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:22 · Score: 1, Interesting

This is something related to comments I've made a few times earlier. When it comes to customising machines, the exterior gets all the treatment, and the interior often ends up at best, a mess of glowing wires in the light of a cold cathode lamp. Some of the best custom cars I've seen have stunning hidden wiring tricks, so an engine bay looks to be just a block hanging in space, or a dashboard is nothing but 2 gauges and a steering column. It's a great effect for minimising visual distraction when creating a whole package.

Yes, I'm looking at the aesthetic point of view, which has some big possibilities - the less space taken with airflow-restricting ribbon cables is a huge bonus I can't neglect to mention either.
Re:Performance? That's not why I want it... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:25 · Score: 0

Seconded - the number of badly designed mobos I've seen that need you to twist the IDE cable round to get it to plug into your hard drive is unbelieveable.

Also, the advent of newer UDMA specifications (specifically UDMA66 IIRC) placed a more stringent limit on the lengths of ATA cables, which causes the problem you now have with cables not reaching. I used to have a PC in a tower case, with the CD drive at the top, because I could. Now I'm stuck with a midi-tower just to get it all to fit.
Re:Performance? That's not why I want it... by swb · 2003-01-17 01:50 · Score: 1

Seconded - the number of badly designed mobos I've seen that need you to twist the IDE cable round to get it to plug into your hard drive is unbelieveable.

Or worse, such as unkeyed IDE connectors on the motherboard either under the footprint of a PCI card or AGP card. Not only do you have to rip the card out to plug the cable in to begin with, you have to guess where pin 0 is, and if its the AGP slot the fsck'n AGP card has to go in and out twice when you orient the IDE cable backwards.
Re:Performance? That's not why I want it... by Surak · 2003-01-17 02:54 · Score: 1

Perhaps then, you would like a set of these?

Note that I have a set of those installed in my machine, but I didn't buy them from Thinkgeek (mine are blue), and I figure you could get them just about anywhere.

--
My journal has hot /. gossip.
Re:Performance? That's not why I want it... by AKnightCowboy · 2003-01-17 03:14 · Score: 1

You could always just get a Mac. Speaking of Macs, does anyone know of a PC case similar to the G4 tower case with a flip down side panel that holds the motherboard? That's just the niftiest case I've ever seen and I can't find anything like that in the PC world. Does Apple sue casemakers out of existence if they attempt to copy it? I'm not referring to the silly desk lamp Macs, but rather the elegant tower G4s with actual expandibility. :-) My PC looks absolutely archaic next to the G4 towers I've seen. :-(
Re:Performance? That's not why I want it... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 03:49 · Score: 0

I have only seen one G4 and that was in showroom. It was twice the price for 75% of the speed of a pc... And it didn't run very much software as compared to the x86 environment. Nice to look at, but... No.
Re:Performance? That's not why I want it... by iNub · 2003-01-17 04:20 · Score: 1

I think the closest you'll get is an . I've looked for this too. Please, prove me wrong somebody. I hate my PC's case.

--
"The image is a dream. The beauty is real. Can you see the difference?" -- Richard Bach, Illusions
Re:Performance? That's not why I want it... by iNub · 2003-01-17 04:23 · Score: 1

Whooooops.... Now we know I'm not a web developer. That was supposed to read: I think the closest you'll get is an Antec. Please, prove me wrong somebody. I hate my PC's case. ... Perhaps I should use the "Preview" button every once in a while. Mod down to taste. :)

--
"The image is a dream. The beauty is real. Can you see the difference?" -- Richard Bach, Illusions
Re:Performance? That's not why I want it... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 04:26 · Score: 0

Dell Precision 530 workstation has flip-open case similar to a PowerMac. Except that it opens sidewise instead of down, and the fit-n-finish isn't quite the same. It also costs as much as a PowerMac.
Re:Performance? That's not why I want it... by b1t+r0t · 2003-01-17 04:29 · Score: 3, Interesting

It must be the most limiting factor inside any desktop PC. In my tower I have trouble making even long cables reach drives at the top of the case, so they have to be mounted halfway down.
You really ought to look inside the case of a current PowerMac tower sometime, just to see how unobtrusive ribbon cables can be, if some though it put into the case design. They've done an amazing job of designing the thing to keep ribbon cables out of the way. Even the otherwise horrible 8100 case design of years ago had good cable routing.

--

--
"Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
"Open source is evil." - Microsoft
Re:Performance? That's not why I want it... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 04:34 · Score: 0

SATA is an industry solution for Dell and Compaq. Unlike 3117 c8s3m0dd3rz, they aren't going to ship machines with out-of-spec cabling.
Re:Performance? That's not why I want it... by Gogo+Dodo · 2003-01-17 09:06 · Score: 1

I agree that the current Power Mac towers have great cable management. (Actually, the case goes back to the blue and white G3).
Many of the high-end gaming PC companies like Voodoo and Alienware do a pretty good job at routing the cables, either with careful folding or bundling and wire loom. It's pretty impressive for a commodity PC case.
Re:Performance? That's not why I want it... by geekoid · 2003-01-17 10:16 · Score: 1

Obviously.
If you wanted performance, you would have bought SCSI. Which would have also solved your cable length problem.
Clearly, you want cheap.

--
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Re:Performance? That's not why I want it... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 12:00 · Score: 0

d00d... it's 1337, not 3117!
Re:Performance? That's not why I want it... by SmittyTheBold · 2003-01-17 20:58 · Score: 1

I'm excited about the possibilities it offers right now.

What...the same advantages of internal IEEE 1394? Yeah, that's been a HUGE success.

--
± 29 dB

Serial ATA Is The FUTURE! by BiggestPOS · 2003-01-17 01:12 · Score: 1, Redundant

1. Smaller Cables. 2. Hot Swappable :) 3. Small speed bump to 150 Thats all I can think of at the moment :/

--
What, me worry?

Re:Serial ATA Is The FUTURE! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 02:50 · Score: 0

Also, SATA allows cable lengths of up to 100cm. Paralel ata can do 80cm for the slow versions (I think you can do 33MB with 80cm, but it might be as slow as 16.6MB), and 40cm for the faster ones (66MB and up).

another review by gyratedotorg · 2003-01-17 01:14 · Score: 4, Informative

theres another review at storage review

--
Gyrate Dot Org - "Where high-tech meets low-life"

Re:another review by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:45 · Score: 0

Well, thats good, because it appears the server for this story died in short order.

Hmmm... I hope they weren't running on SATA drives.
Re:another review by jriskin · 2003-01-17 11:25 · Score: 1

Is it me or does Slashdot tend to ignore Storagereview.com? They tend to be one of the first to review a lot of new drives, as well as back when they first put up the Drive Reliability Database I don't remember seeing anything on slashdot about it (even after I submitted it).

Of all places, slashdot users are probably the best demographic to fill out such a database.

New power connector? by Pastey · 2003-01-17 01:15 · Score: 5, Interesting

This is the first review I've seen of the new SATA drives that made mention of this.

Anyone know why this was implemented? The article (now /.'ed) doesn't explain the reasoning, just that it exists. Why get rid of the old MOLEX? Since an adapter is included with the drive it doesn't seem that there are any new voltages required. What's the deal?

Is this just another one of those PITA upgrades?

Re:New power connector? by I+didn't · 2003-01-17 01:28 · Score: 1

It's required for the hot-plug feature I guess.
Re:New power connector? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:36 · Score: 1, Informative

Why get rid of the old MOLEX? Since an adapter is included with the drive it doesn't seem that there are any new voltages required.

The new connectors provide 3.3V as well. The first generation of drives will not make use of it.
Re:New power connector? by Zathrus · 2003-01-17 01:52 · Score: 4, Informative

So that you can do hot plugging. The current MOLEX connector cannot be used for this - first, it requires far too much force to connect or disconnect. Second, there is no guarantee of ground before any other pins connect. Third, there is no standard on where the power connector will be located in the drive bay or with respect to the data connector.

SATA fixes all of this.

Is this just another one of those PITA upgrades?

Frankly, I can't see how anyone would consider anything about SATA a PITA. Smaller, more flexible cable, no jumpers, no master/slave crap, and a standardized power connector. Where's the pain? (Ok, you'll pay maybe $20 more for the drive at first, but that pain will disappear shortly)
Re:New power connector? by ottffssent · 2003-01-17 01:52 · Score: 4, Insightful

> why new?

Hot-swap. The ground connectors are longer than the power connectors. This grounds the drive's electronics before power is applied - prevents potential differences from destroying delicate parts.

> why not old Molex?

Friction-fit Molex power connectors suck. Just ask anyone who has used one more than 5 times.

The new SATA power and data connectors allow the drive to be hot-swapped with a minimum of extras. The drives can be slid into protective cases or hot-swapped bare - a vast improvement over the bulky boxes required for current parallel IDE drives to achieve even warm-swapping.

--
High-speed Road Trip (18.000KPH)
Re:New power connector? by PhilHibbs · 2003-01-17 02:23 · Score: 1

This is the first review I've seen of the new SATA drives that made mention of this.
You obviously haven't been reading Tom's Hardware.
Re:New power connector? by salamander_sjv · 2003-01-17 03:01 · Score: 4, Funny

> Why get rid of the old MOLEX? Are you crazy? I can't think of a single electronic component that inspires hatred and loathing like every encounter with the Molex connector. Enough hatred to curse the fool that invented the damn thing every time I have to unplug one. The Molex connector inflicts pain on every disconnect, and its inventor deserves to be strung up by his thumbs. Wiggle, waggle, wiggle, waggle, aaaaargh just come out you little bastard, aaaaaaargh!
Re:New power connector? by clarkc3 · 2003-01-17 04:45 · Score: 1

The drives can be slid into protective cases or hot-swapped bare - a vast improvement over the bulky boxes required for current parallel IDE drives to achieve even warm-swapping.
and those of us using SCA drives sit there saying 'nice to see the rest of the world is finally catching up'
Re:New power connector? by toby360 · 2003-01-17 09:03 · Score: 1

MOLEX connectors are responsible for millions of tech hand scars across the world. *wiggle wiggle* *wiggle wiggle* *wig... THWAP!!!* -Bam your hand goes flying into a razor sharp heatsink or the sharp edge of a cheap case. Why get rid of the old MOLEX? Are you insane? Have you ever tried to take a molex out of some old drive? Those things are the devils creation and only cause pain (finger cramps/cut-up hands/Bruised knuckles) and untold amounts of frustration.
Get rid of the molex please!!
Re:New power connector? by thogard · 2003-01-17 16:34 · Score: 1

I figure it will be about 3 months after the S-ATA drive hit the shops that someone will start putting both the new power connector and the old molex connector on the drives.
Re:New power connector? by Kanasta · 2003-01-17 17:39 · Score: 1

I thought the point was the new connector would contain the data+power in one. I wonder why they split it into 2 cables again....

Wait to buy? by brejc8 · 2003-01-17 01:15 · Score: 2, Interesting

What do people think is going to happen to the price of old ATA drives once the serial drives kick in?
Are they gonna tumble down in price as the hard disk is usually one part of the computer that you move to the upgraded PC and so you will want to get the serial ones to ensure you can still use them later. This will make the old disks nice and cheap. (like SDRAM)
Or will the old disks become so rare that they are more expencive than the new versions (Like old EDO SIMMs).

--
Mouse powered Chips, Open source Processors and Lego

Re:Wait to buy? by ultrabot · 2003-01-17 01:24 · Score: 2, Interesting

My experience is that when you upgrade your system, moderately priced hd's are so much bigger than your current hd that it's hardly worth the trouble to move your old disk to the new system, except to transfer your old data to the newly acquired hd (and have around as a nice 'backup' drive).

I don't think parallel ATA driver will get any cheaper than usual. More probable is that SATA will remain an expensive option for a while, until it is the default option on new motherboards. At some point they will stop manufacturing normal ATA drives in high volumes, and they will get expensive as SIMMS nowadays.

--
Save your wrists today - switch to Dvorak
Re:Wait to buy? by Megane · 2003-01-17 01:25 · Score: 1

IDE drives didn't make SCSI drives any cheaper, did they? The logic board is the only thing that will change, and it will have a similar cost to regular IDE controller boards.

--
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
Re:Wait to buy? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:42 · Score: 0

Yes and yes.

Parent posting is rather myopic. All technologies have about four price points....

1) It's NEW NEW NEW and $$$$ $$$$ $$$$
2) It's NOT new tech any more $$$ $$$ $$$
3) It's old tech being discontinued, nobody wants it $ $ $
4) It's old tech that's not made any longer but a few people absolutely need it to keep their business afloat $$$$$$$$$$$$
Re:Wait to buy? by hatchet · 2003-01-17 01:48 · Score: 2, Interesting

When companies stop making ATA drives they'll get a bit cheaper. When they become rare(which will happen quite fast.. think EDO SIMM fast).. they'll be more expensive than SATA.
SDR SDRAM is still mass produced because lots of things use it. (handheld devices, portable mp3 players, ...) And technology is basically the same as DDR's (Actually DDR is SDRAM too). Most such deviuces do not need aditional speed DDR offers.
EDO SIMM is obsolette it isn't used much anymore.. SDRAM replaced it.

Great and not so great features by hcdejong · 2003-01-17 01:17 · Score: 2, Interesting

Yay! No more jumpers! The days of mechanical configuration are finally drawing to a close!

But why did they include a new power connector? Specifically, a 15-pole connector not used in any current computers, with only 4 power leads going into it?

Oh, and the 'review' reads like a press release. They claim independence, but are they really?

Re:Great and not so great features by stevewm · 2003-01-17 01:40 · Score: 1

The new power connector is required for hot swap capability. In the new connector the ground leads are longer than the actual power leads. Thus the ground leads will make contact first.

The new power connector is also supposed to carry a 3.3v line. However it will probably never be used in desktop PC applications.
Re:Great and not so great features by AlecC · 2003-01-17 01:45 · Score: 1

I think the 15 way connector is the *only* connector i.e. both power and signal. And it is desigend to be suitable for either cable connection, as currently, and backplane for hot-pluggable (raids, mirrors). If you are going to have one new connector, for the signals, why not make that new connector do everything.

--
Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
Re:Great and not so great features by geekoid · 2003-01-17 10:19 · Score: 1

"Yay! No more jumpers! The days of mechanical configuration are finally drawing to a close! "

yes, this way it will all be configured the way your operating systems tells you it should be.

If I do it mechanically, I know its been done, if I use software, I know that tge software says its done.

The power connector changed so they can hot swap.

--
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Re:Great and not so great features by hcdejong · 2003-01-17 21:00 · Score: 1

"Yay! No more jumpers! The days of mechanical configuration are finally drawing to a close! " yes, this way it will all be configured the way your operating systems tells you it should be. If I do it mechanically, I know its been done, if I use software, I know that tge software says its done.
Why would you possibly want to configure things like master/slave/CS? SCSI has shown that you don't miss anything by doing without. USB has shown that you don't miss anything by doing without SCSI's manual device IDs.
Yes, I know Windows sucks at automatically assigning IRQs and such, but that's an implementation problem, not a fundamnetal flaw of autoconfiguration. See the Macintosh: no IRQ settings, yet no problems.

SLASHDOT KILLER IS HERE NOW! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:17 · Score: -1, Troll

THE TIME HAS COME! THE CLOCK IS TICKING!

Forget everything you know about /.! Slashdot is a mere shadow of itself.

A NEW SITE IS BORN - A NEW SITE THAT WILL RULE! Gentlemen, point your browsers to this address!

A new site for intelligent individuals! Spread the word!

/. effect by lahna · 2003-01-17 01:18 · Score: 0

Seems that the server has already taken damage, has anyone mirrored this?

Re:/. effect by KDan · 2003-01-17 01:24 · Score: 2, Informative

Trust in google.

http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:AXz0ph7JjFsJ: www.explosivelabs.com/reviews/barracudav_sata/+%22 %2Bwww.explosivelabs.%2Bcom/reviews/barracudav_sat a/%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Daniel

--
Carpe Diem
Re:/. effect by pldms · 2003-01-17 01:34 · Score: -1, Offtopic

Ouch. That might be a record. Though I fondly remember the Apple Lisa 2 slashdotting. Now that was amusing, and horribly inevitable.

--
Slashdot looked deep within my soul and assigned
me a number based on the order in which I joined
Re:/. effect by MarkGriz · 2003-01-17 02:24 · Score: 1

Bah. The server probably has one of them there new-fangled "serial-ATA" drives the kids have been hollerin' about.

--
Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.

Seagate advertisement? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:19 · Score: 0

Portion of the article sound an awful lot like a seagate advertisement.
I'm not shouting "astroturfing!", but it really does seem pretty cheesy!

Down, down, down by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:19 · Score: 0

and here's google cache:

http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:AXz0ph7JjFs J: www.explosivelabs.com/reviews/barracudav_sata/+%22 %2Bwww.explosivelabs.%2Bcom/reviews/barracudav_sat a/%22&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8

SPREAD THE WORD! SLASHDOT IS DEAD! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:20 · Score: -1, Flamebait

THIS IS WHAT YOU'VE BEEN WAITING FOR!

Forget everything you know about /.! Slashdot is a mere shadow of itself.

A NEW SITE IS BORN - A NEW SITE THAT WILL RULE! Gentlemen, point your browsers to this address!

A new site for intelligent individuals! Spread the word!

YOU FAIL IT! by gazbo · 2003-01-17 01:21 · Score: -1, Offtopic

YOU FAIL IT!

SATA power? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:21 · Score: 0

The article wasn't clear about the SATA power "problem" ...Is the solution just a simple four-pin to fifteen-pin adaptor or do you have to get a special feed from the power supply?

Thomas

A NEW SITE FOR INTELLIGENT INDIVIDUALS LIKE YOU! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:24 · Score: -1, Troll

THIS IS EVEN BETTER THAN PENIS ENLARGEMENT!

Forget everything you know about /.! Slashdot is a mere shadow of itself.

A NEW SITE IS BORN - A NEW SITE THAT WILL RULE! Gentlemen, point your browsers to this address!

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What about USB? by Amsterdam+Vallon · 2003-01-17 01:25 · Score: -1, Redundant

I, for one, would like to take advantage of USB's much faster bus speed to overtake these rickety old serial and parallel hard disks.

Any other takers?

--

Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate. Ex-O'Reilly/MIT employee, now a full-time Google employee.

Re:What about USB? by Amsterdam+Vallon · 2003-01-17 01:27 · Score: 1

Just found the perfect product.

It's USB 2.0, even!

--

Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate. Ex-O'Reilly/MIT employee, now a full-time Google employee.
Re:What about USB? by jemhddar · 2003-01-17 02:15 · Score: 4, Informative

High speed USB is 480 megaBITS/second
which translates to 60megaBYTES/second

Serial ATA is faster.

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Re:What about USB? by karnal · 2003-01-17 02:50 · Score: 3, Insightful

Find me one disk that can push more than 40-50MB/sec and I'll give you a cookie.

So, Serial ATA would be faster, if the disks were faster.

--
Karnal
Re:What about USB? by nmg196 · 2003-01-17 03:13 · Score: 3, Informative

What are you talking about? USB is slower than SerialATA not faster... Much much slower in fact.

Here's a quick comparison

SerialATA 1.0 - 1.2Gbps (150Mb/sec)
USB 2.0 - 480 Mbps
USB 1.1 - 12 Mbps
Firewire (IEEE1394) - 400 Mbps
Parallel Port - 1 Mbps
Serial Port - 0.115 Mbps

Figures taken from the actual spec on serialata.org and from here.

Nick...
Re:What about USB? by nmg196 · 2003-01-17 03:16 · Score: 1

> SerialATA 1.0 - 1.2Gbps (150Mb/sec)

Sorry that's 150Mbytes/sec (MBps?) not Mbits/sec, to avoid confusion...

Nick...
Re:What about USB? by NineNine · 2003-01-17 03:17 · Score: 1

Perfect only if you don't mind buying a new one of these every year:

Warranty Period 3 1 year (USA), 2 year (Europe)

Opening the USB hard drive case will void the warranty

And that's not even mentioning that WD probably has the most unreliable, loudest drives on the market.
Re:What about USB? by nmg196 · 2003-01-17 03:19 · Score: 1

Except it's half the speed of a SerialATA drive and twice the price. That makes it 4 times worse in my book :)

Hardly perfect.

Nick...
Re:What about USB? by nmg196 · 2003-01-17 03:26 · Score: 2, Informative

> And that's not even mentioning that WD
> probably has the most unreliable, loudest
> drives on the market.

I strongly disagree with this statement. Unlike Fujitsu and IBM, Western Digital do not have the reputation of making unreliable drives.

Their new drives feature Fluid Dynamic Bearings and make almost no noise whatsoever (I have 80Gig ones in my computer). You can just hear it spinning up if you put your ear to the case, but I promise you it's silent from then on - even while it's moving the heads.

Nick...
Re:What about USB? by NineNine · 2003-01-17 03:33 · Score: 1

Well, I'm just speaking from anecdotal evidence of my own use and the people that I know. The last few WD's that I saw were in family members' computers and they had to be replaced because they were so incredibly loud. As far as reliability, I've lost many, many more WD's in my lifetime than Quantum, Maxtor, Conner, and IBM drives combined. That seems to be the consensus with my friends, also.
Re:What about USB? by Dirttorpedo · 2003-01-17 03:53 · Score: 1

A few more and a correction.

SATA 1.5 Gbps (not 1.2)
GIGe ~1.06 Gbps
Fibrechannel 2.125 Gbps
Serial Attached SCSI 3.0 Gbps (Coming soon)

FYI
SAS and SATA both share a physical layer and are roadmapped at 3,6,12 Gbps. 12 maybe hard but 6 is doable, maybe in 2006-7. SATA will lag behind mostly because of cost reasons, 3Gbps is possible today its just not cheap.
Re:What about USB? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 05:28 · Score: 0

8 meg cache

dipshit.
Re:What about USB? by nmg196 · 2003-01-17 05:46 · Score: 1

> A few more and a correction.
> SATA 1.5 Gbps (not 1.2)

No - I was correct! Please actually read the specification yourself if you don't believe me! It's here - look in section 2.2 on page 12(13 in acrobat).

It's definitely 1.2Gbps which equates to 150MB/sec.

1.5Gbps would be 187.5MB/sec which is wrong.

Unless of course you think there are 10 bits in a byte which of course there aren't - there are 8. Always.

Nick...
Re:What about USB? by Zathrus · 2003-01-17 06:17 · Score: 1

While you're right about sustained transfer rate, would you want to limit your interface to something that has a maximum theoretical transfer rate only a little bit faster than what's currently possible?

Even if you say "fine with me" realize that USB2 doesn't actually get anywhere close to 480 Mbps, but rather closer to 300-360. At that point you are affecting the performance of your drive.

I think the ATA-100/133 SATA-150/300/600 comparisons are equally vapid, but that doesn't mean I want to drop down to ATA-66.

Oh, and while it makes rather minimal difference, cache-to-host transfer speed is performed at the maximum possible transfer rate... it doesn't save you more than a couple milliseconds before the cache is exhausted though.
Re:What about USB? by Zathrus · 2003-01-17 06:22 · Score: 1

. Unlike Fujitsu and IBM, Western Digital do not have the reputation of making unreliable drives.

Says you.

WD had a reliability problem in the early to mid 90s. And until the recent debacle with IBM drives they were widely considered some of the most reliable drives available.

Every manufacturer has had drive lines that sucked, and sucked badly. Most of them handle it poorly. And they all have lines that work flawlessly for most users as well. If you look over the last 20 years the drive that stinks rotates between manufacturers, as does the most reliable drive. The end result? Buy the drive that's priced right, has good performance, and keep backups. Because it's not a question of if it will fail - it's a question of when.
Re:What about USB? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 06:32 · Score: 0

Actually, Serial ATA does transfer 10 bits for every byte. It's part of the serial encoding scheme that is used in order to encode the clock into the data stream and not have a pin dedicated just for the clock. So technically, SATA does transfer 1.5Gbps. However, only 8 of those bits are useful data when all is said and done.

This 8bit->10bit conversion scheme is an IEEE standard and can be found in ethernet as well as the new PCI-Express spec.
Re:What about USB? by DocZott · 2003-01-18 04:14 · Score: 1

You have to remember that 480 Mb is a THEORETICAL maximum throughput. If your USB 2.0 is tied to the PCI bus then you won't get beyond 133 Mb.

I ran into a similar problem with a PCI Firewire card between 2 computers. I coud only transfer at what the PCI bus limited me to.

--
The answer is 42.

2 questions about hot-swap by Libor+Vanek · 2003-01-17 01:25 · Score: 3, Insightful

I couldn't find out nowhere answers to this 2 questions:

- does ALL SATA adapters + disks supports hotswap?

- does SATA under Linux support hotswap?

And yes, I know www.serialata.org ;-)

Re:2 questions about hot-swap by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:32 · Score: 1, Informative

All compliant adaptors and disks support hot swap

linux will support hot swap as any other removable drive

the only current system without full compliance (I don't know why they do this consistently) are Apple Powermacs. They do not have hotswappable SATA.
Re:2 questions about hot-swap by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:42 · Score: 0

Dumbfuck retard. Powermacs are not 'SATA Compliant' in the same way my toaster is not SATA compliant, nor is my bathroom, or even my dick. Powermacs do not yet use any form of SATA
Re:2 questions about hot-swap by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 12:37 · Score: 0

My dick doesn't do SATA either. It DOES do Santa, however.

Has anyone used this SATA ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:33 · Score: 0

And how does it stack up?

Read Tommorow's News Today

Is anybody WORRIED about this? by WIAKywbfatw · 2003-01-17 01:33 · Score: 4, Insightful

OK, I'm not a luddite, I understand that progress is a Good Thing (TM) but am I the only one getting dizzy at the speed at which the hard disk drive industry seems to be moving?

In the last five years, typical hard disk drive sizes have increased more than ten-fold, transfer speeds have shot up too and prices have come right down.

The net effect of all these factors is that HDDs have now become commodities and many manufacturers - put off by both the shrinking profit margins available and the high investment costs of developing the next generation of drives - have left the business.

There are now only four major players left, and all of them are doing whatever they can to maintain profitability. Cranking up volume only works so far - there are only so many customers out there, especially in today's economy - so manufacturers have looked to cut costs elsewhere.

Two critical areas that seem to have taken a major hit are quality control and warranties. More and more drives (and in some cases, entire drive families) seem to be failing at every given opportunity. Meanwhile, the length for which they're covered has shrunk back from (typically) three years to the minimum one.

Sure, at the high-end, speed will always be appreciated, but how many of us run render farms?
The market is near-saturated (not everyone needs 200GB or even 20GB, because not everyone is a MP3/MPEG/whatever addict) and that situation isn't going to change any time soon.

I would be much happier with an industry that still has some real competition and offers customers reliable, well-supported products in five years time than one that has breakneck-speed products from top to bottom but which break down every five minutes.

For 99% of users, data integrity is the holy grail and everything else comes a distant second. I wish manufacturers would remember that.

--

"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg

Re:Is anybody WORRIED about this? by AlecC · 2003-01-17 01:50 · Score: 4, Insightful

For 99% of users, data integrity is the holy grail and everything else comes a distant second. I wish manufacturers would remember that.
Everybody says that with their mouth, but not with their wallets. When it comes to buying disks, people lok at Gb and average access time, and by the drive with the best combination of these. A few may worry about heat and noise. But people don't actually pay for reliability.
People who actually want reliability buy Scsi. The premium cost of Scsi drives is nothing to do with the interfaces - it is enchanced performance and reliablity. Check the warranty lives - IDE down from 3 years to 1 year, Scsi steady at 5 years. The manufacturers are trying to tell you something.

--
Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
Re:Is anybody WORRIED about this? by hyperturbopete · 2003-01-17 02:45 · Score: 1

Everybody says that with their mouth, but not with their wallets.

Yeah, for a fixed set of specifications (speed+size) they will buy the CHEAPEST product. Thus consumers PREFER the less reliable :-)

--
SUV's support terrorism !
Re:Is anybody WORRIED about this? by NineNine · 2003-01-17 03:14 · Score: 1

I'm really worried about it. That's why all of my machines now have at least RAID 2. Luckily, hardware-based RAID 2 is a cheap, easy, and very viable option for even the most basic PC's now.
Re:Is anybody WORRIED about this? by salamander_sjv · 2003-01-17 03:18 · Score: 1

Well the catch to the great price deals in my opinion is that it's time to face up to the reliability issue and pay for mirroring. I just set up a home server to relieve my other machines of perpetual disk space worries, and chose to buy two drives and a PCI RAID card.
Yes, I'm halving my potential storage capacity, but the chances of me losing my data have plummetted. Break in and theft is now my biggest data loss threat.
So yes, drives have got a lot cheaper and maybe they're a lot less reliable, but you can still set up a large amount of storage that's quite safe for relatively little money.
For those interested, my choices were the ACARD PCI 6880M with two 120GB Barracuda Vs (non-SATA). Nice and quiet, and gives me the (perhaps false) reassurance that quiet bearings will translate into longer life.
Re:Is anybody WORRIED about this? by ErikZ · 2003-01-17 05:23 · Score: 1

"Two critical areas that seem to have taken a major hit are quality control and warranties. More and more drives (and in some cases, entire drive families) seem to be failing at every given opportunity. Meanwhile, the length for which they're covered has shrunk back from (typically) three years to the minimum one."

I know a LOT about Maxtor's warranty service. This statement is misleading.

If you buy a Maxtor SCSI drive you get a 5-year warranty. If you buy the Maxline drives, you get a three-year warranty. (It's the model they sell to the stores, with the mounting hardware, the cables and the software. Says "Three year warranty on the box")

The rest of the drive lines have 1 year warranties.

So, if you normally get a bare drive wrapped in plastic that you got from some Internet distributor, most likely you'll be getting a 1 year warranty. Why do you think it was such a good deal?

--
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
Re:Is anybody WORRIED about this? by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · 2003-01-17 06:28 · Score: 1

Everybody says that with their mouth, but not with their wallets.

I disagree. I just bought a good ol' Seagate Barracuda IV, first and foremost because amongst other experienced home PC builders in the area, there have been lots of problems with every other make in the past year or two, but never a complaint about this drive AFAIK. It's slower than its rivals, probably cost slightly more, and isn't as big. It's also fast enough for me, big enough for me, and hopefully reliable enough to last as long as the PC it's going in. The warranty still ain't all that, which is annoying, but I've definitely put expected reliability before either price or performance.

--
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Re:Is anybody WORRIED about this? by jdoff · 2003-01-17 06:36 · Score: 1

Um, I don't think you mean RAID 2. Maybe RAID 1?
Re:Is anybody WORRIED about this? by Cyno · 2003-01-17 07:36 · Score: 1

Actually most people only started to use a computer in the last five years, so what do they know about how much harddrive space they'll be using later this year or next year or 5 years from now. Why did they get a computer? Probably because they wanted a typewriter than they could browse the internet with. But slowly they are learning that this device will be useful for storing their music and video collection. When they finally figure that out they'll need these 200GB drives. Or they'll need better compression.
Re:Is anybody WORRIED about this? by ttfkam · 2003-01-17 08:10 · Score: 1

Two critical areas that seem to have taken a major hit are quality control and warranties. More and more drives (and in some cases, entire drive families) seem to be failing at every given opportunity. Meanwhile, the length for which they're covered has shrunk back from (typically) three years to the minimum one.

Not true. While there have been some problems, by and large the reliability has increased. Does anyone remember the old Seagate 40MB drives? Can you honestly say that they were more reliable? What about the 540MB drives? I can recall quite a few lemons in that batch.

The truth is that many companies are reducing the duration of warranties for accounting reasons unrelated to quality. Drives are actually more reliable for longer periods of time. However, keeping sale information for every drive takes time and effort. While a great deal of this information is electronic, they must also have a paper bill of sale and other info from the retailers for tax purposes. The warrantee info on paper must be housed somewhere. Major hard drive manufacturers sell a lot of drives. That's a lot of paper. That means storage costs -- accessible storage costs.

It costs them quite a bit of cash to maintain those warranties. The shortened interval has very little to do with drive quality though despite the anecdotal evidence individual Slashdotters may present. (eg. Two people saying that they have had four drives fail in the last year does not a trend make. Think in thousands.)

For 99% of users, data integrity is the holy grail and everything else comes a distant second. I wish manufacturers would remember that.

This is what backups are for. No matter how good drives get, there will always be a need for good backups. A lot of people have CD-R/CD-RW drives. A few even have DVD burners. If your important data only exists in one place, how can you say that you consider it important? If you kept all of your important documents, money, and valuable goods in your car, no matter how reliable or secure that car may be, when that car breaks down, you will be screwed. The same holds true of your computer. Make copies. The drive manufacturers are largely a scapegoat.

And no, I don't work for any hard drive manufacturers nor do any of my friends and family.

--

- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
Re:Is anybody WORRIED about this? by nosferatu-man · 2003-01-17 08:21 · Score: 1

Completely incorrect. The differences between, say, a SCSI Barracuda and an IDE one are exclusively the interface logic. The drive mechanisms are identical.

'jfb

--
To spur "enterprise Linux," Big Bang, the distributed two-phase commit.
Re:Is anybody WORRIED about this? by AlecC · 2003-01-17 08:42 · Score: 1

I got that from the UK technical manager of one of the main manufacturers. The specs read higher (buffer size, avarage access). When scsi first came out, the cost difference in the interface was about $20. Now, according to a different manufacturers technical rep, the difference is sub-$1. My company buys Scsi drives in quantity, so the tech reps speak directly to us, and I write the scsi drivers, so I think I know what I am talking about.

--
Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
Re:Is anybody WORRIED about this? by NineNine · 2003-01-17 11:23 · Score: 1

Yup, I guess so... I use two drive RAID 1 systems like this one) because IDE is so damned unreliable.
Re:Is anybody WORRIED about this? by nosferatu-man · 2003-01-17 11:46 · Score: 1

Well, naturally a 15,000rpm UltraIII and a 5400rpm EIDE are going to have different mechanisms. The point is that a 7200rpm 2mb buffer SCSI disk and a 7200rpm 2mb buffer IDE drive will be the /exact/ same drive, modulo the (bolt-on) interface logic.

Buy SCSI for all the right reasons (superior performance at the top end, hot-pluggability, device bus density), not because the drives themselves are "better" than IDE ones. That there's a pricing differential is entirely due to the willingness of the marketplace to spend more on SCSI than IDE. It's soak, pure and simple.

'jfb

--
To spur "enterprise Linux," Big Bang, the distributed two-phase commit.

Reinventing the wheel by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:35 · Score: 4, Insightful

It's really sad to see everybody on a tech site like Slashdot cheering for a "new" technology that has, in fact, already existed for a long time.

Firewire. IEEE1394.

You can get Firewire hard drives right now. You don't have to wait for them. You can get Firewire enabled motherboards right now, too. Nice round, thin cables. Nice hotpluggable connectors. Faster transfer speeds (Firewire2 will leave SATA in the dust).

Re:Reinventing the wheel by Gothmolly · 2003-01-17 02:03 · Score: 3, Insightful

Except that the platters aren't any faster. The kind of connector you use is meaningless, if the disk can't feed you data faster. Give me a spinde which can kick 50MB/sec across the whole disk, and I'll start to care about the I/O it uses.

--
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
Re:Reinventing the wheel by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 02:08 · Score: 1, Insightful

ahh.. the better technology always loses.. like the betamax VHS battle..

firewire is so.. last year.. who cares that it's a universal bus standard.. and that its fast.. and that it works..

s-ata is better because... because.. it's new.. thats it.. it's mostly vapourware.. so it has to be better.. :rolleyes:

Isn't the preferred raid storage system on RS/6000's SSA? (Serial Storage Array)

This is nothing new..

wake me when you can get solid state memory for less than a slow mechanical device.
Re:Reinventing the wheel by JasonBee · 2003-01-17 02:32 · Score: 1

No kidding eh? I have been reading up on Serial ATA wondering aloud the whole time that FireWire was a slithgly better deal (Powered bus) anyway. FireWire bus not strong enough power-wise? You have an adapter A' la the Serial ATA power connector. Hot swappable, blah blah blah. Everyone here know FireWire...AND they just rolled out 800MBs Firewire! Why haven't there been any mentions along the ine of: Serial ATA: "Really cool but we already have onboard FireWire...let's comapre the two!" I fauly Apple to some degree for not championing FireWire hard enough in the wintel world despite its superior implementation and the fact that virtually every firewire device involves a FireWire to IDE bridge fo some sort. The power provisions are good too: FireWire devices can provide or consume up to 45W of power. Obviously regular Hard Disks will require the extra power but that's assumed.
Re:Reinventing the wheel by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 02:42 · Score: 0

Hmm, Guessing a troll, you would have to be pretty clueless not to know the Firewire hard drives, are just IEEE 1394 to the HDD enclosure, where it is converted to IDE, and the HDD is a standard (And normally just a 5400rpm drive at that) IDE HDD.

But for those that get caught.

Firewire = 400/800 Mega _bits_
SATA 150 = 150 Mega Bytes ( Time by 8 = 1.2 Giga bits)

Both assuming no protocol overhead (which there is)
Re:Reinventing the wheel by Lxy · 2003-01-17 02:46 · Score: 1

If I'm not mistaken, USB 2.0 is faster than firewire, and doesn't have all the patents tied to it. My new Gateway system came standard with USB 2.0, Firewire is a custom addon that's nearly unavailable on a desktop unless you build it yourself or buy a Mac.

--

There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
Re:Reinventing the wheel by hyperturbopete · 2003-01-17 02:51 · Score: 1

Firewire is great. I have some hopes that it will win out eventually though. For one thing, it's pretty well entrenched as a multimedia standard (think DV cams). This should give it the longevity to survive as a standard.

Of course Mac users have been enjoying external firewire HD's for a while now- theyre pretty sweet. Not sure if mac's use firewire inside the box (theres no reason not to though)

--
SUV's support terrorism !
Re:Reinventing the wheel by MikeBabcock · 2003-01-17 02:54 · Score: 2, Insightful

USB 2.0 is slightly faster than firewire (480Mb instead of 400Mb) but firewire has 800, 1600 and 3200Mb speeds in the pipe, as I understand it, for 2003. Even 400Mb/s is only 50MB/s and not the 133+ that serial ATA calls for. However, Firewire is peer-to-peer and therefore won't (ever?) get support from Intel because Intel likes technologies that are tied to CPUs (go figure). USB is host-based; you must have a computer to run it and so is Serial-ATA. With Firewire (also known as i.Link to Sony), you can connect an i.Link video camera to an IEEE 1394 hard drive and record to it; its really that simple.

If half the money that went into serial ATA went to realizing that IEEE 1394 could be improved to higher speeds, leaving consumers with one generic high-speed interconnect, we'd all be happier I think.

--
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Re:Reinventing the wheel by demon · 2003-01-17 03:56 · Score: 1

Not yet, but most of them have internal-only FireWire ports, and FireWire boot support (pretty much everything from the Yosemite G3 on, far as I know), so there's nothing stopping it.

--

Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
Re:Reinventing the wheel by jpc · 2003-01-17 04:30 · Score: 1

thats not true: firewire is much slower than SATA. It is rated at 400Mbit, but may actually achieve about a third of that. SATA is 1.5Gbit in the first release, and you will probably get that (it isnt a shared bus hence the firewire overhead).
Re:Reinventing the wheel by MagnusDredd · 2003-01-17 07:18 · Score: 1

Actually USB 2.0 is not faster than Firewire. The numbers that you are quoting are "Thoeretical Throughput". Reality paints a different picture. Every engineer that I know who has worked with both in laboratory situations (which generally are closer to theoretical maximums than real world situations) has stated that USB 2.0 generally tops at far below 480Mb/sec. and that Firewire is generally faster.

Furthermore, USB 2.0 is far inferior to Firewire in that it doesn't scale devices well. If you have two devices hooked up to USB 2.0 each device gets 1/2 the bandwidth. If you hook up 5 devices, each gets 96Mb of bandwith or 12MB/sec of bandwidth. What this means is that if you have a printer, scanner, webcam, a USB 2.0 Hub, and a USB 2.0 hard drive, each gets the same 12MB of bandwidth. It doesn't matter that the printer is not printing, the scanner isn't scanning, the web cam is only using 1MB/sec of bandwidth, the hub is passive, and the hard drive is maxxing out it's share of the bus.

Firewire on the other hand can have a DV camera (not sending information), a web cam using 1MB/sec, a scanner (not in use), a hub, and a hard drive which still can access 90+ MB of Bandwidth.

For cheesy non-bandwidth intensive things (mice, keyboards, printers (inkjet), crappy scanners, web cams, joysticks, keychain flash storage, et al) USB is a fine interface. I perfer USB for these things.

For something like DV cameras, high resolution scanners, hard drive enclosures, et al, Firewire is a superior interface.

I do not want a firewire mouse. Nor do I want a firewire keyboard.

While it is a possibility that Firewire could have been pushed to the point where it eclipsed the bandwidth ceiling on SATA, it's not designed to do the job that SATA is designed for. Firewire is not compatable with standard ATA drivers. It would require a reworking of the architectures (and BIOSes) of every PC mainboard on earth (except perhaps Apple). What this basically amounts to is that the amount you would have to pay to get the same amount of storage would go way up while the transition was taking place. Also I'd imagine there would be a bunch of buggyness while everyone rewrote drivers.

Basically most technologies answer a given need. USB meets certain needs very well (smart, very compatable, non-bandwith dependant devices). Firewire meets it's needs very well (smarter, somewhat compatable, bandwidth dependant devices). SATA meets it's needs very well (dumb, extremely compatable, bandwidth dependant devices)
Re:Reinventing the wheel by rmarll · 2003-01-17 07:39 · Score: 1

It's really sad to see everybody on a tech site like Slashdot cheering for a "new" technology that has, in fact, already existed for a long time.
Firewire. IEEE1394.

You can get Firewire hard drives right now. You don't have to wait for them. You can get Firewire enabled motherboards right now, too. Nice round, thin cables. Nice hotpluggable connectors. Faster transfer speeds (Firewire2 will leave SATA in the dust).

It's cost. It's the driving factor behind everything. FireWire cabling is expensive, the interface is expensive, the LICENCE isn't free either. This is an industry that lives and dies on fractions of a cent on the dollar. That is why SATA is the victor and 1394 isn't an option.
Re:Reinventing the wheel by harlows_monkeys · 2003-01-17 08:42 · Score: 1

Serial ATA is just slightly under twice as fast as Firewire2, and that is to each drive, whereas that speed is shared among all drives with Firewire.

However, that is not the most important reason that Serial ATA is better than Firewire for replacing ATA: Serial ATA is compatible with ATA as far as the software is concerned. A Serial ATA controller looks like a regular ATA controller. NO software changes are required in the OS. To go to Firewire, you need to get support in your BIOS for booting, and your OS. Quick, without looking, which Firewire controllers work in Linux? All Serial ATA controllers do.
Re:Reinventing the wheel by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 13:00 · Score: 0

You got an insightful for that?

Have you not even read the other posts?

How many people need to clearly state the facts before you open your ears?

If you are going to sleep until there is a 20 0 gig solid-state persistant storage device for $100, you might as well sleep on the freeway.
Re:Reinventing the wheel by Corrado · 2003-01-18 05:13 · Score: 1

Yes, you can boot any Firewire Mac with an iPod (Firewire MP3 player). It comes in really handy if you need to troubleshoot some weird boot problems.

Plus, it's just neat to boot a computer off of your MP3 player. :)

--
KangarooBox - We make IT simple!
Re:Reinventing the wheel by MikeBabcock · 2003-01-22 04:09 · Score: 1

I am aware of the fact that USB 2.0 is so bad at its bandwidth allocation; I was being as generous as possible while still favouring FireWire (gotta try and look unbiased).

That said, I'd like to disagree with your drivers picture -- the drivers for FireWire hard drives are already here; they're already stable. They'd just get used INSTEAD of the current IDE drivers (or even as well as).

The only change necessary would be the BIOS recognition of the IEEE1394 interface and its ability to boot the devices. I would guess that IEEE1394 chip makers would be more than willing to write boot bioses for their chips just as secondary ATA cards or SCSI cards currently work until the BIOSes understood them.

As far as "pushing" the ceiling on IEEE1394, its already under execution -- they were too slow to get started and probably don't have the funding, but like I said, SATA's money could have gone there instead. Hostlessness is probably too big of a deal to Intel though.

If I only had Bluetooth, USB and Firewire interfaces for peripherals, I'd be happy. Oh yeah, and its not Utopia -- we could all be there _right now_.

USB2.0 + Firewire cards:
http://www.usb-2-0.com/usb-2-0-firewire.ht ml

The MSI 845PE Max2 FIR motherboard has Intel RC8254OEM 10/100/1000 bit LAN, Promise PDC20276 RAID controller for dual ATA-133, C-Media CMI8738 6-channel audio, VIA IEEE1394 FireWire controller & Bluetooth support all built in.

For the Athlon lover, see the Abit AT7 MAX with 4 USB 1.1 ports, 2 additional USB 1.1 ports via PCI backplane, connector, 2 USB 2.0 ports, 2 additional USB 2.0 ports via PCI backplane connector, 2 IEEE 1394 Firewire ports, Audio jacks with S/PDIF-Out, 1 10/100MB LAN connector, but only 3 PCI slots.

--
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Re:Reinventing the wheel by MikeBabcock · 2003-01-22 04:17 · Score: 1

LaCie has 800MB firewire available according to this page. That said, firewire is already supported by all major OS's. Go ahead, buy a firewire drive and plug it into your XP box.

--
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)

Already /.'ed by mseeger · 2003-01-17 01:37 · Score: 0, Redundant

Does anyone know if there's a mirror somewhere?

Martin

StorageReview.com Review by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 01:40 · Score: 0

Storage Review is, IMO, the best site for hard drive reviews.

Seagate Barracuda ATA V, Serial ATA Version

And don't forget to contribute to their Drive Reliability Database!

Few pins != few voltages by mmol_6453 · 2003-01-17 01:48 · Score: 2, Informative

You can get multiple voltages from any difference in potential. (Voltage is just a term describing the difference between the charge density, or 'pressure' between two points)

For example, if I placed two 1 KOhm resistors in series between "GND" and "-12V", at the contacts between the two resistors, the voltage compared to GND is -6V, and the voltage compared to "-12V" is actually +6V.

However, due to resistor tolerances and Thevenin resistance, it's much more preferrable to have the power supply give a steady, regulated supply of -6V and +6V, if you need them.

--
What's this Submit thingy do?

Re:Few pins != few voltages by Brad_Silva · 2003-01-17 08:53 · Score: 1

That's not true if you have load on the line. Once you place load (that is referenced to ground), the voltage will drop closer to the ground voltage.

The situation you describe is only true when the current through the two resistors is equal, which is rarely true.

Brad
Re:Few pins != few voltages by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 15:40 · Score: 0

you must be an idiot.

??? Well... I don't know about that. by Ayanami+Rei · 2003-01-17 02:04 · Score: 4, Interesting

And IEEE1394 is just serial SCSI, so why bother with that technology, just buy Ultra-LVD SCSI drives, operators are available right now.

The point is serial ATA is a simple ATA-style replacement. The drives will be cheap because the controllers will be cheap.

Firewire (or SCSI) are not cheap. They are not an equivalent product. Sure, it's BETTER, but it comes at a price some are not willing to pay for an desktop, MP3 server or what have you.

--
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON

Re:??? Well... I don't know about that. by geekoid · 2003-01-17 10:31 · Score: 1

When ever somebody talks about hox expensive SCSI is, I have to ask:
How much did you pay for your sound card?
How much for your video card?

I can not tell you how many people will spend 100 bucks on a sound card, or 400 bucks on a 'just released this week' video card, then complain about the cost of SCSI.
which, by the way, would make video and sound cards, perform better.

--
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Remember SSA? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 02:08 · Score: 1, Informative

SSA had this years ago (up to 160 MBytes/s), as well as Fibre Channel. The only reason for not going serial was a large installed IDE base to be accomodated.

Re:Remember SSA? by AKnightCowboy · 2003-01-17 03:08 · Score: 1

The only reason for not going serial was a large installed IDE base to be accomodated.
What about the large installed base of SCSI, another parallel technology? Will SCSI be going serial soon as well?
Re:Remember SSA? by flahiker · 2003-01-17 03:14 · Score: 1

Fibre channel is basically seiral SCSI. Is it gonna make it? Who knows, it is up to the market. I know there is an innitiave toward iSCSI for SCSR over ethernet. I don't believe this is intended to be over the common network on your LAN but a separate one for storage.

Summary by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 02:09 · Score: 5, Informative

Alright so far most of the posts are misguided, so I'll answer a few questions. But first, this was mentioned in the slashback that is still on the front page. Please post any corrections.

1a. Yeah!, faster drives.
No. Find me a drive that can use PATA-100 to the max let alone PATA-133 and I'll be a very happy customer. Current drives do not use current capacity, the only time the bus becomes an issue is where you are bursting from the drive cache to the controller, which is not enough to really worry about except in certain situations (The same data is read continuously).

b. Yeah!, Faster drives.
No. Why a second point? The first point dealt with bandwidth. This one is for latency. Please remember that most SATA controllers on motherboards, etc (atm at least) are actually a bridging chip to a PATA controller. This incurs a slight latency delay. If you do a lot of small file accesses you will be effected.

2. Whats the point we already have enough speed?(ie I already know 1.)

a.The point is smaller cabling, making cases less cluttered, meaning better cooling, and easier to keep wiring neat and out of the way. Why no use rounded cables? You didn't think the cables where a ribbon shape for looks did you? The cables are meant to be ribbons to reduce the interference between each pair (limits it to the pair on each side). Rounding the cables causes all pairs to interfere with each other resulting in a much shorter maximum cable length before there are too many interference errors on the bus.

b. Point to point cabling, knock a cable loose, or have a misbehaving drive and you loose one drive. With PATA you can loose 2, or with SCSI you can loose up to 14 (Wide, not typically a problem on modern auto-terminating devices)

c. You can disconnect a drive from a powered controller without risking blowing the controller chip (Possible with PATA). Making removable hard drive cradles finally usefull on ATA systems.

d. Longer in-spec cable lengths. PATA cables (Sorry I forget the length off hand) can't reach the top 5 1/4" drive bay in a full tower case. SATA cables can. Why not use longer PATA cables? Cables longer than PATA spec tend to suffer badly from interference based errors, resulting in a lot of resends on the bus, sometimes causing bad data on drives.

3. The performance isn't what I hoped (or a WD JB is faster)

This drive isn't intended to be the fastest on the block, it is meant to be quiet. Seagate drives have the new fluid bearings, they haven't been the fastest on the block for a while now, what makes you think this one would be different?

I personally think this is a good drive to be first to SATA, as the people likely to appreciate the quiet drive would also desire the better air flow offered by smaller cables, meaning slower case fans, and a quiter PC.

4. Why don't they compare a PATA Barracuda V vs a SATA Barracuda V.

The PATA has a 2mb cache the SATA has an 8mb cache (and a slightly faster access time, by 0.6ms). They aren't directly comparable, the SATA version is obviously aimed to be the top of the line model.

5. The power connecters. The Barracuda V requires the same power voltages that current PATA drives do, so an adapter works fine. However it was intended to supply drives with multiple voltages (such as 3.3v, 5v, etc) so that the electronics can use a different voltage than the drive motors, reducing the power consumption of the electronics, and therefore the heat output. Some drives get very hot, and every little bit helps.

I think thats all.

Re:Summary by clarkc3 · 2003-01-17 04:58 · Score: 2, Informative

Seagate drives have the new fluid bearings, they haven't been the fastest on the block for a while now, what makes you think this one would be different?
Methinks you have never looked at seagate model ST373453FC - 3.6ms seek & 15k rpm - sure its not meant for a PC - but shows seagate can still make them pretty fast. Good points on the other stuff about SATA
Re:Summary by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 06:00 · Score: 0

I was referring to the top end IDE market.

SCSI drives are a whole different kettle of fish.

Noise doesn't really matter when the case/housing fans make twice the noise (This is typical in the server rooms where you would put a 15krpm drive).

Still, starting up a Sun 6 disk external Ultra SCSI array that's currently in the test cubicle makes an impressive amount of noise (Internal microcontroller, starts each drive one at a time), and thats with Seagate 10krpm drives.

SATA ???? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 02:11 · Score: 0

Interesting "problem" for Finns as we prepend the letter n to indicate possessive.

I for one will not use SATAn to connect my drives.

Re:SATA ???? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 02:57 · Score: 0

/pree'pend'/ (by analogy with "append") To prefix or
add to the beginning.

prepend /pree`pend'/ vt. [by analogy with `append'] To prefix. As with `append' (but not `prefix' or `suffix' as a verb), the direct object is always the thing being added and not the original word (or character string, or whatever). "If you prepend a semicolon to the line, the translation routine will pass it through unaltered."

Do you mean Append ??
Re:SATA ???? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 12:46 · Score: 0

Yep. I always knew you Finns were gay.

Do your worries translate to what you buy? by martintt · 2003-01-17 02:11 · Score: 1

You say 99% of users are primarily interested in reliability, which (although one of the 97.65% of statistics made up on the spot) is probably true.

You don't say that this has very little effect on what people buy. I don't currently know anyone who buys IDE hard disks with an eye to reliability. Most people I know just go on size to price ratio, next they either look at speed or they look at noise and choose a Barracuda.

Perhaps reviewers could try to test the hard disks to destruction to find how reliable they are, but even constant reads and writes to opposite sectors of the disk, interspersed with stopping and then respinning the disks would hopefully take weeks/months to kill a disk. Although its a rather dangerous thing to have out there does anyone know of any hard disk torture setups, or even what usually kills them.

I lost an IBM drive to a power spike caused by my desklamp (one of those funky 12v halogen ones with a lousy switch I'd put in the cable).
I've had a drive dead on arrival from scan.co.uk sent out with only two layers of thin bubble wrap. (-replaced no problem)
The only drive I've had die of natural causes was a quantum which serves me right for buying a "fireball"

So if no-one buys disks based on reliability because there is no information about this until it is too late and if waranties are usless to most users who need to buy another drive rather than wait 6 weeks for a replacement to be shipped to them, then whatever peoples holy grail is said to be this will have little effect on manufacturers.

TROLL ALERT! by Marx_Mrvelous · 2003-01-17 02:13 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Q: What does any of this have to do with the review, or serial ATA?

A: Nothing. This is a karma-whoring troll!

--

Moderation: Put your hand inside the puppet head!

Re:TROLL ALERT! by Marx_Mrvelous · 2003-01-17 02:53 · Score: 0, Redundant

I've got Karma to burn...

What MORONIC moderator moderates ME down while the obvious, senseless TROLL gets modded up?

Moderation: Drawing everyone to the lowest commond denominator (read: Idiots!!!)

--

Moderation: Put your hand inside the puppet head!
Re:TROLL ALERT! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 03:34 · Score: 0

We're not idiots. It has nothing to do with "unintelligent" decision making. It's *malicious* decision making. Against you. We all hate you personally, and so we mod you down.
HTH. HAND.

not meant to be a 'incredible performance jump? by kmurray24 · 2003-01-17 02:22 · Score: 2, Interesting

God forbid we get any kind of substantial performance leap all at once... Might drive the prices down too early.. ;)

No there going to rocket.... by oliverthered · 2003-01-17 02:26 · Score: 1

Look at the price of old ram, when serial ATA kicks in the demand for old IDE drives will drop, reducing volumes and increasing overheads. The price will go down for a litle bit to clear out ond drives and then climb.

--
thank God the internet isn't a human right.

But Firewire will never win by marm · 2003-01-17 02:43 · Score: 2, Informative

Faster transfer speeds (Firewire2 will leave SATA in the dust).

Firewire 2 = 800 Mbps = 100MBps

SATA = 150MBps

Firewire 2 faster? Don't think so. Sure, Firewire 2 will ramp up to twice that speed eventually, but so will SATA...

SATA is also a lot simpler to implement: chipset manufacturers can reuse most of their old, highly-optimized Parallel ATA controller core. Similarly, OS writers can reuse most of their old ATA drivers. SATA has less overhead than Firewire, it's designed for data storage and data storage alone, and it doesn't do daisy chaining.

Firewire's a nice technology, and it would work for hooking hard drives up internally, but it doesn't do the job as well as SATA does, it's over-complicated (and thus expensive), doesn't have the track record, and probably most importantly, has some serious political opposition (Intel anyone?). It's always going to be the Cinderella of the ball.

Playing with SATA by Deton8 · 2003-01-17 03:12 · Score: 4, Insightful

I'm playing with my first two SATA drives, and one thing I find very careless is that the connectors are very easy to knock off the drives. This is not a problem for me as I am designing a RAID box where they slide in, but for a PC, somebody is going to have to add detents or friction locks to these connectors or we are in a world o' hurt. By the way, my IBM SATA drives have the conventional Molex 4 pin power connector for legacy PC applications which you can use instead of the SATA power connector. Seagate was too lazy to put one on their drive, or maybe they need the 3.3V input on the SATA power connector which is not provided for on the Molex connector which is only 5V/12V. Oh, and one other thing, SATA 2.0 phase 2 which will be 300 MB/s won't help at all with performance until and unless the drives go past their present 50 MB/s native transfer rate. Hell, the 150 vs 133 vs 100 agrument of SATA vs PATA is silly when you consider the modest speed requirements of the drives being built today. Raw transfer rate only appears to be increasing 25% per year anyway, so it will be years before we even give a damn about the 150 MB/s "limit".

Re:Playing with SATA by Deton8 · 2003-01-17 03:14 · Score: 4, Insightful

Forgot to mention that the 300 MB/s stuff in SATA 2.0 is actually useful for another reason, when this becomes available you will be able to use SATA outside the box, and run a single 300 MB/s link to a port expander chip inside a external chassis, which will in turn connect to a bunch of 150 or 300 MB/s disk drives. So when you aggregate five to ten drives, the extra performance headroom is necessary.
Re:Playing with SATA by blueworm · 2003-01-17 03:43 · Score: 1

That's very true about the brick wall in performance we have with magnetic hard drives today. I don't know if it's possible to get the drive to go past 60MB/s read on 7,200rpm although I haven't used the cheetah 10,000 rpm ones yet. Probably aren't that much better. Now the controller only operates at 150MB/s right? I don't know much about SATA yet but it would seem to me that if they use one controller for two SATA "ports" then you'd only be able to get half the max (and a bit less of course) for both drives you had connected to that one controller....
Re:Playing with SATA by CaseyB · 2003-01-17 03:50 · Score: 1

somebody is going to have to add detents or friction locks to these connectors or we are in a world o' hurt
Just plug 'em in again. It's not a bug, it's just a built-in perpetual demonstration of the hot-swapping feature.
Re:Playing with SATA by blueworm · 2003-01-17 04:14 · Score: 1

Now that sounds like a reason to do it... I was going to say the only thing I could think of to use up the extra bandwidth would be raid of some type. SATA hubs eh? RAID for the average joe! :)

I'll stick with SCSI thankyou.. by Nonillion · 2003-01-17 03:27 · Score: 1

I have been using IDE drives for years, shure they have come a long way but I feel SCSI is much better. I have had several IDE drives fail months of years after purchase, but my SCSI drives in my Sun boxes still keep on working. And even the old drives in my Ultra 2 give the ATA 100s in my linux box a run for their money.

I'll gladly spend more for drives that have MTBFs of a 1,000,000 hours over IDEs 100,000 or so.

--
"I bow to no man" - Riddick

Its really a hardware issue by flahiker · 2003-01-17 03:36 · Score: 2, Informative

when you send data down a wire (copper trace or actual wire) at very high speeds It needs to be treated like a transmission line. The length of the wire and relative speed have to be taken into account.

Basically this means that rather than treating the wire as a fixed capacitance, inductance, resistance, it must be treated as a distributed system. Each dx has a dc, dl, dr. The longer the wire the higher the impedence. Now you have to take into account the bundling the wires ans assuring that they are all equal length and impedence. This is why IDE went from a 40 pin connector to an 80 pin conector. The data pin count remained the same, but the grounds increased.

Next you have to take into account the drivers and receivers. Each has certain variations in their physical properties. Taken as an individual, you minimize the tollerances. BUT when you add many of them in parallel, the tollerances add as well. The end result is that the overall speed is limited due to the summation of tollerances in the wire AND in the silicon. This is physics and no real way around it.

SATAn by sarum · 2003-01-17 03:53 · Score: 1

Intresting choice of name :)

--
-- / The whole history of this invention has been a struggle /\|/\ against time - Charles B

Big Brother by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 03:54 · Score: 0

No that's because these new drives replicate all their contents via a super-secret protocol back thru the power supply, and thru the power grid so the gubmint can monitor your computer activities better.

Laugh, that's supposed to be funny... hahahah. :-|

I'm MUCH more worried about... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 03:57 · Score: 1, Insightful

...rapidly, all of a sudden there won't be any any "legacy" IDE ATA100 or 133 drives available and all there will be is SATA drives with mandatory hardware DRM built in.

Perhaps they're called Explosive Labs because... by indros13 · 2003-01-17 05:09 · Score: 1

...their Slashdotted server has become a lethal frag grenade sending out molten shrapnel.

--
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.

Gen- 2 is backwards compatible with Gen-1 by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 05:12 · Score: 0

The specs for Generation 2 have already been releasd. Generation 2 is backwards compatible with Generation 1.

The degree of compatibiltiy between Gen-3 and other Generations is an open issue.

Why go to SATA at all? by evilviper · 2003-01-17 05:16 · Score: 1

its intended purpose was to make the industry transition seamless to allow time to mature the future generations of SATA.

Strange.

SCSI is here. Firewire is here. I should give a crap about SATA why? I think companies would do much better to unify standards than diversify, and leave the markets in limbo for months or years.

Hey, if they just used Firewire internally, they could have all tthe advantages they are working on, and be able to focus on improving firewire. In addition, internal and external hard drives would be identical.

In addition, they could focus on improving firewire, instead of starting from scratch.

--
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant

Re:Why go to SATA at all? by DeathPenguin · 2003-01-17 07:51 · Score: 1

Why SATA and not Firewire? Because SATA is backwards compatible with normal ATA. Not all motherboards support firewire, and asking customers to buy add-in firewire cards in addition to a harddrive for an "older" system that doesn't have a built-in firewire controller would drive the price up.
Re:Why go to SATA at all? by evilviper · 2003-01-17 08:47 · Score: 1

For one thing, I generally see Firewire cards cheaper than PCI ATA cards, so the price isn't a big issue.

Since SATA has different physical connectors, it can't really be backwards compatible. You will need to have an adapter... Of course, you can hook ATA drives up to firewire right now with an inexpensive adapter (ie. A stripped-down FW HDD kit), so Firewire could be said to be backwards compatible as well.

--
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Re:Why go to SATA at all? by mnemotronic · 2003-01-17 10:53 · Score: 1

SCSI is here. Firewire is here. I should give a crap about SATA why?
Intel wants you to use SATA. Intel wants Firewire/1394 to go away. Intel didn't invent 1394.
It's a shame really. 1394 & SBP-2 (the protocol used by 1394 drives) has queuing, hot-plug, auto-configuration, flexible topology (anything but a loop) and free beer. SATA, on the other hand, is cheaper because it's good 'ol ST-506 with a serial-parallel converter (Ok, maybe I'm a little to harsh, but the AT command set is truely horrible). The protocols stay the same (until queuing drivers are available). Manufacturers can get product out the door and see how things work in the real world (you ARE the beta test site, doncha know).

--
The Russians have won. They have made the world a cesspool of distrust, greed, fear and hate.
Re:Why go to SATA at all? by Vorgo · 2003-01-18 07:12 · Score: 1

I imagine what the advantage of using SATA is that the hard drives will still remain relatively cheap (as standard ide drives are now).
Whereas things like SCSI drives tend to be a bit more expensive.
As for FireWire I'll be the first to admit I don't really know much about it. However I do know that when I built a new computer for myself this past summer, I didn't happen to come across a lot of motherboards with firewire onboard. I'm not saying that firewire sucks, just that it doesn't seem quite as popular at the moment.

--
A new feature is just a bug waiting to happen. And vice versa.
Re:Why go to SATA at all? by evilviper · 2003-01-18 08:25 · Score: 1

I didn't happen to come across a lot of motherboards with firewire onboard.

I'm not sure what your point is. I didn't come across ANY motherboards with SATA on them, so Firewire has a clear advantage.

I would recomend you do learn more about firewire. Firewire to ATA adapters are quite cheap, and firewire's 400Mbps performs far better than USB 2.0's 480Mbps.

--
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Re:Why go to SATA at all? by Vorgo · 2003-01-18 16:09 · Score: 1

My point is not that SATA is already found on motherboards, but rather that I believe that they're going to try to put it in the same niche that ATA currently resides in, therefore bypassing the whole problem of getting widespread usage and acceptance (i.e. mostly standard on motherboards). Which is the problem that firewire experiences. Which is unforunete because, although it is arguably the better technology, it is not in widespread usage enough to be a "standard" feature on motherboards.

You seem to think that I argue in favour of SATA over firewire, when what I was really doing was giving my opinion on what I believe they're trying to do from a _marketing_ point of view. Don't get me wrong; It would be awesome if manufactures actually used a standard interface for a wider range of hardware, but in the real world what's best is not necessarily what becomes reality.

--
A new feature is just a bug waiting to happen. And vice versa.
Re:Why go to SATA at all? by evilviper · 2003-01-18 17:00 · Score: 1

believe that they're going to try to put it in the same niche that ATA currently resides in, therefore bypassing the whole problem of getting widespread usage and acceptance

I'm well aware of that. However, they could just as easily turn to firewire, and suddenly it would be replacing ATA, and maufacturers could kill two birds with one stone. Three,actuall... if you consider that many would not go to USB2 if they had to have firewire anyhow.

SATA has no advantages. When they decide to stick us with it, raising the prices and breaking compatibility, I think I'll just go to SCSI all the way, instead. Drives are fast, more reliable, under longer warranties, are nearly as inexpensive as ATA is currently, and it's had for many years all the things SATA is only now promising.

--
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Re:Why go to SATA at all? by MikeBabcock · 2003-01-22 04:12 · Score: 1

Check out a thread where this was discussed previously as well. Improving firewire is under way.

--
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)

I found two by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 05:37 · Score: 0

One. The 180GXP's outer-zone transfer rates weigh in at a respectable 56.2 MB/sec

Two. The drive more properly act like twins in WB99's transfer rate tests. Here both drives post an outer-zone score of 56.5 MB/sec

Does this mean you will give me two cookies? I like chocolate chip.

Oh, Yeah? by Kibo · 2003-01-17 05:45 · Score: 2, Funny

On the other hand, with every Western Digital drive you get a free white noise machine. Let's see Seagate match that offer.

--
--Jimmy has fancy plans; and pants to match.

The main driver for hard drive sales today by CrystalFalcon · 2003-01-17 06:17 · Score: 1

...is DivX.

In fact it's such a huge driver I'm surprised they don't sponsor video codec development and P2P infrastructure outright openly. I recently bought 400 new gigs to grow my media archive slightly; from what my friends and I talk about, I am not the only one who works like this.

So we're talking volume, volume, volume. Not speed. Not reliability. Not even interface technology. Volume. Higher numbers.

Am I just blind or has somebody seen a downright sponsorship? It would certainly pay them back...

it's the software by g4dget · 2003-01-17 06:34 · Score: 1

Serial-ATA is transparent to existing operating system software expecting Parallel-ATA devices. It can also be retrofit easily into motherboards and drives. None of those applies to FireWire.

FireWire has the same problem relative to USB2. It may or may not be better than USB2, but USB1 is ubiquitous and USB2 is mostly transparent to software--it's just faster.

Re: not meant to be a 'incredible performance jump by g4dget · 2003-01-17 06:37 · Score: 1

If they up the requirements too early, the SATA prices will be too high and people won't buy. That's why they start off with cheap specs that are barely faster and increase them later.

Effectively, the same happened with USB1 and USB2: it moved in because it was cheap and they later upped the performance.

Whatever the review says, it surely can't be by EvilSmile · 2003-01-17 09:08 · Score: 1

that: "This drive can make your site take on the /. effect" Get off the darned server and lemme read the review :).

Re:Perhaps they're called Explosive Labs because.. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 11:22 · Score: 0

This is the second time it has happened to us and we moved to good servers too :)

they make whatever you buy by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 12:24 · Score: 0

I only buy quality drives. I used to use only SCSI, but I switched a couple years to IDE.

I currently actively use about 7 hard drives almost every day (not counting at work or in my iPod). This is more than at any time during my life.

Despite this, I haven't had a drive fail since an old Quantum Grand Prix 4GB (3.5" full height, about 6 years ago).

Why? Because I don't buy junk. Drives are at least as reliable as ever AFAICT, you just need to be careful what you buy.

What I currently use:
180GB Western Digital
80GB Seagate Barracuda ATA IV in my TiVo (very heavy use)
80GB Seagate Barracuda ATA IV in my PC.
80GB Seagate Barracuda ATA IV in my 2nd PC.
80GB Seagate Barracuda ATA IV in my Mac tower.
60GB Western Digital in my Mac tower.
60GB Western Digital in my XBox

other good drives I've used.
30GB Seagate Barracuda ATA II.

Buy quality and companies will produce quality. Buy bad drives at rock bottom prices and see what they make...

Re:they make whatever you buy by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-20 23:42 · Score: 0

OMFG....and yet another lucky idiot rears his ugly head.

In 7 years, I have had 8 Maxtors and 4 WD drives fail on me...and none of them were 'low-end' purchases either.

Just freakin STOP your idiotic opinion-posting until you have suffered massive data-loss from an 80GB Maxtor ATA100 7200RPM model that you bought NEW back in the day and then had to deal with Maxtor's HD Diagnostic crap jerk you around.

just...forkin...STOP...ok?

*goes back to SKYY vodka shots and promptly blows off fact that this my first /. post in 4 years*

Re:Perhaps they're called Explosive Labs because.. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 12:49 · Score: 0

Moved to good servers? Oh, did you meen 'gooder' servers?

Controller cards cost +$100 by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-17 16:26 · Score: 0

If I was building a system where I had a choice between an additional IDE controller for more drives, or SCSI, I'd go with the latter(unless of course it was built into the motherboard, but that's neither here nor there). So you pay +50$ extra per drive... you gain reliability and speed. But in the same respect, I've configured many machines without SCSI and the performance is top notch with plain old UltraATA (master and slave, even!) Sometimes you have to avoid the crappier drive manufacturers, and make sure you OS is set up right (IE, it isn't 95-Me). Then you can spend that extra money you saved up on a graphics card that'll give you that 5 FPS edge and make you KING FRAGMASTER. Usually, if you have tons of RAM, it doesn't matter what kind of shitty drives (or nice ones) are backing it. As soon as everything is slurped into RAM, you don't touch the disk for a good long while. I had a Linux PC with 1GB of RAM that would sit all day with the drives powered down, while I happily tore at it. :-)

Re:Controller cards cost +$100 by Sunthalazar · 2003-01-18 06:43 · Score: 1

I'm not sure how it compares to Windows, or if there was a setting I could have configured, but one interesting thing I ran into was I had a computer with 2 GB of RAM (we were going to use it for large dataset studies) and while setting it up, I ended up telling WinXP that I wanted only 100MB for swap. Since to this point nothing big had been run, everything could have easily been run in RAM.
But running a couple of large applications in the background (Word and Mozilla IIRC) for a total usage of maybe 300+ MB, WinXP put up a nice little warning saying, "Out of swap space increasing size".
Which left me wondering why in the hell Windows was swapping. The only thing I could think of is that by some default XP swaps everything but the currently active programs.
By the same token I ended turning off swap on my Laptop which has 512MB since only once have I ever run low on memory (running a game with a lot of stuff already open, closed them and haven't had a problem since), and it responds much faster when switching programs.
Just an interesting Windows anectdote about improperly handled RAM.

GOOD POST by YOU+ARE+SO+FIRED! · 2003-01-18 03:52 · Score: -1

"Every manufacturer has had drive lines that sucked, and sucked badly. Most of them handle it poorly. And they all have lines that work flawlessly for most users as well. If you look over the last 20 years the drive that stinks rotates between manufacturers, as does the most reliable drive. The end result? Buy the drive that's priced right, has good performance, and keep backups. Because it's not a question of if it will fail - it's a question of when."

This is hands down the most insightful and true thing I've read here in a loooooooong time. Thanks for that.

Disabling swap, for your informations by moogla · 2003-01-21 16:54 · Score: 1

As Administrator:
Start->Control Panel->System
Then select the advanced tab, and click the "settings" button under performance.
Then select the advanced tab in the new dialog, and click "change" at the bottom under Virtual memory.

Select the radio button for no swap file. Reboot, if asked.

Wahoo.

In linux, issue as root:
swapoff -a
make sure /etc/fstab has all swap lines commented out too, so it remembers after reboot. ^_^

--
Black holes are where the Matrix raised SIGFPE

Last Post! by alpg · 2003-01-31 16:06 · Score: 0

"Linux was made by foreign terrorists to take money from true US companies
like Microsoft." - Some AOL'er.
"To this end we dedicate ourselves..." -Don
-- From the sig of "Don", don@cs.byu.edu

- this post brought to you by the Automated Last Post Generator...

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