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Rambus Wins Case Against Infineon

rednoise writes "Yahoo is running a story about how a Federal Circuit Court in California (I think) has (unbelievably) ruled that RAMBUS did NOT intentionally mislead members of JEDEC when the committee was developing the SDRAM specification. RAMBUS' stock skyrocketed something like 57% on the news. This is very bad news for owners of computers."

85 of 379 comments (clear)

  1. Freedom to innovate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Thank goodness that the Microsofts and the Rambuses in the world are protecting the freedom to innovate. Why, if they ewre taken down, people would be forced to buy things from smaller companies which as we all know are totally incapable of innovation.

    Now I'm going to McDonalds for a delicious cheeseburger.

    1. Re:Freedom to innovate by foonf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Thank goodness that the Microsofts and the Rambuses in the world are protecting the freedom to innovate...we all know (smaller companies) are totally incapable of innovation.

      This is funny, but there is a problem with the (implied) argument. Rambus is not a very large company as they come, in fact it is basically a small fabless company which is totally dependent for revenue on licensing its intellectual property. It is nowhere near as large as Infineon (formerly the semiconductor division of Siemens AG), not to speak of Microsoft. Second, Rambus actually has designed technology...RDRAM is basically an original technology, and much more of a departure from conventional memory architecture than DDR or any of its competitors. Whether it is a better technology right now, in practice, is another matter, and there are apparently major problems producing RDRAM modules at the moment. Furthermore, no one disputes that the SDRAM patents that were at issue in this case were valid, and concerned technologies that Rambus actually did develop themselves.

      There are basically two things about Rambus that are reprehensible, though -- neither of them have anything to do with innovation. First, they didn't disclose their patents at the time they were on a committee that was designing the SDRAM technology (which they are now suing manufacturers of), and second, their current attempts to support themselves through royalties relating to this undisclosed patent. And the second, while disturbing, is not illegal.

      --

      "(Man) tries to live his own life as if he were telling a story. But you have to choose: live or tell." --Sartre
    2. Re:Freedom to innovate by BrainInAJar · · Score: 2, Funny

      Ahh, good old Tim O'Fish.

      A chipper wee lad he was... fell to the galloping consumption, he did...

      May God rest his tiny soul.

  2. Rambus Stock by Salden · · Score: 4, Funny

    Wow, I'm going to start a company and my goal will be to win as many court cases as possible. That'll pump up my stock price!

    1. Re:Rambus Stock by ender81b · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It had to be said....

      1.) Start a company.
      2.) Sue the living bejesus out of everyone
      3.) PROFIT!!!!!!!!!

      The sad thing is that apparently works...

    2. Re:Rambus Stock by refactored · · Score: 3, Funny
      Nah! Bad Business model.

      Become a Lawyer and make your goal to have as many court cases as possible.

      That's immediately a 50% increase in profit, you win whichever way the case goes, and you win double if they appeal..

  3. fuzzy math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    The company's stock soared on the news, rising $54.75, or 57 percent, to close at $11.69 on Nasdaq.

    Ah, Yahoo.

    1. Re:fuzzy math by generic-man · · Score: 4, Informative

      That was published by Reuters. Yahoo doesn't make news; they just rebroadcast feeds.

      --
      For more information, click here.
    2. Re:fuzzy math by Kallahar · · Score: 4, Funny

      Whew, thank goodness I bought their stock when it was worth -$40 a share! :)

      Perhaps the sentence was misleading on Yahoo's part. They should have said "initially rising to $54".

      But then again, look it up at it's stock today and you'll see that it started the day at $7.50, then rose to $12 on the news. I have no idea where yahoo got $54 from, but the 57% part was right.

      Travis

    3. Re:fuzzy math by ender81b · · Score: 2, Informative

      I imagine they missed a decimal point. Should've been 5.40$ I am guessing.

    4. Re:fuzzy math by JLyle · · Score: 3, Funny
      Ah, Yahoo.
      Hey, don't mock Yahoo just because their proofreading skills aren't as good as the Slashdot editors'.
    5. Re:fuzzy math by kmellis · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "The part I hate is when a company, I'll pick United Airlines because it's been in the news lately, has a low stock price and the headlines scream "United Stock Plummets 33%" when that 33% turns out to be a dollar, going from $3 to $2. Um, it's in the crapper already, why scream that the sky is falling? It's already all around your feet."
      Your second point doesn't follow from the first. Every stock that's $3 a share isn't necessarily a depressed stock. Surely you're not one of those boobs who evaluates a stock based upon their share price, and not their valuation? You're smarter than that, aren't you? The amount a stock per-share price moves in dollars is completely meaningless on its own.
  4. Which RAM? :) by B3ryllium · · Score: 2, Funny

    That's all fine and good, but I _still_ don't know which motherboards take what RAM ...

  5. The Decision Doesn't Say What You Think It Does by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    You might consider reading the article a little more carefully. It's being sent back for "reconsideration." Nor did the article say that the court found they did NOT perpetrate a fraud... it just said that it wasn't proven that they did.

    So, it's neither good news nor bad news for anyone but Rambus, since they're not dead in the water. Infeneon will have to keep going.

    1. Re:The Decision Doesn't Say What You Think It Does by AndroidCat · · Score: 3, Informative
      You're a loon. These judges are doing what they are supposed to do. That's what an appeals court is for. That's what the supreme court is for when it gets appealed further up the system.

      And note that they didn't completely reverse the decision, they just sent it back down, saying that both sides would have to prove their cases better. You did know that the right to a "jury of peers" doesn't always apply in civil court cases, didn't you?

      A case involving more than a billion is going to bounce like a hailstone up and down the court system. Get used to it, learn more about the law and your constitution, or move to a country that doesn't have appeals courts.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    2. Re:The Decision Doesn't Say What You Think It Does by deaddeng · · Score: 3, Informative

      when it comes to patent law, the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit (CAFC), which just overturned in favor of rambus, *IS* the supreme court. Infineon's next step is to ask the CAFC for an "en banc" ruling by the entire CAFC (not just a 3-judge panel); these are almost never granted.

      There is no point of constitutional law for the Supreme Court to review. Stick a fork in it-- this is over. The fraud conviction is overturned, and fraud was the basis for the FTC's antitrust case, which almost certainly just evaporated.

      The CAFC also threw out the Virginia court's claims construction and "Markman" and basically wrote their own, which could not favor Rambus any more if Rambus attorney's had written it themselves.

      The judge who wrote the majority opinion (there is one dissenter) is Raeder, who is the patent law expert on this court.

      --
      --- .085 as cool; proving that a little knowledge is dangerous
    3. Re:The Decision Doesn't Say What You Think It Does by t_parker16 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > The fraud conviction is overturned, and fraud was
      > the basis for the FTC's antitrust case, which
      > almost certainly just evaporated.

      based on previous statements of the FTC, this is just not true. they've said there is no overlap because their case involves market issues, which were dismissed from the infineon case when it was narrowed to jedec/fraud and ip issues. there's a significant difference between misleading a standards organization in a way that may or may not violate an agreement among its members; and the apparent fact that they withheld info about, and modified patent applications in an attempt to monopolize a market ...

      no?

  6. Federal Circuit Court by ajakk · · Score: 4, Informative

    The Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit is based in Washington D.C. They hear appeals from all Patent cases, and almost all of the judges are former patent attorneys. Because Patent cases are so rarely litigated, many district court judges make poor decisions on the law (especially in constructing claims) when they actually have to handle a case. The court overturning the appeal does not necessarily mean that Rambus wins the patent case. The court ruled that, in construing the claims, the judge defined 5 terms wrong. It is still possible to find that Infineon does not infringe the patents. The court also overturned the fraud charges because they felt that the JEDEC did not uniformly enforce their patent policy. This decision shows why it is important that these standards groups be very strict in composing and enforcing their patent policies so crap like this doesn't happen.

  7. Prevention? by gtada · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If there are any lawyers, can you tell us what can be done in the future to prevent a RAMBUS type of deception?

    1. Re:Prevention? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You just add clauses to the contract which, in this case, demand that RAMBUS has to state truthfully that they don't own any patents to the technology shared with JEDEC, and a subclause, that if they do or claim in the future, the patent rights will be transferred to JEDEC in case RAMBUS wants to claim IP (using a patent they shouldn't rightfully have, according to the above hypothetical clauses...)

      IANAL, but something like that.

    2. Re:Prevention? by Adam9 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sorry, not a lawyer, but keep in mind RAMBUS hasn't "won" anything. As one of the previous posters explained, the case was sent back because the earlier judge misdefined 5 terms.

      To answer your question, I think the legal process will solve this. (IOW, the threat of a lawsuit would prevent this kind of deception)

    3. Re:Prevention? by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 3, Informative

      RAMBUS had pending patents on this technology. The standards commiteee required disclosure of issued patents, but did not require disclosure of pending patents.

  8. Re:What's the big deal? by Verteiron · · Score: 5, Informative

    In a nutshell, Rambus thinks that they own (at least part of) the SDRAM specs. When their own RAM flopped due to being too expensive and not offering enough performance, they resorted to suing just about every RAM manufacturer around for using "their" SDRAM spec. Mind you, Rambus did aid JEDEC in defining the spec, but, as I understand it, lied about the availability of some patents that Rambus had so they could be incorporated into the "open" SDRAM spec.

    As soon as Rambus's real business began to suffer, they turned around and said "Actually, no, we changed our mind and now you DO have to pay us huge sums of money to use this spec that has now become an industry standard".

    So, it's bad for computer users because Rambus is going to levy huge "royalty" fees against other RAM manufacturers, and that cost is gonna get passed right back to us, the customers. Say goodbye to the $12 128MB chip...

    Arseholes to 'em, I says.

    --
    End of lesson. You may press the button.
  9. not a done deal... by AlphaSys · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Remember, the appeals court is just handing this back to the lower court for reconsideration. All the appeals court has said is the prosecution hasn't made a clear enough case. Also, remember the FTC is hard against RAMBUS in this:
    The FTC has asked an administrative law judge to rule immediately against Rambus, saying the company engaged in a campaign of "massive" document destruction at least partly out of concern that some internal documents could be used to press antitrust charges against the company and invalidate its valuable patents.

    Rambus maintains the document destruction was part of the company's regular document retention policy...
    Which leads one to wonder... what is that policy? Destroy it before the prosecution gets ahold of it? Sure they started shredding before the investigation, but then again, wouldn't you if you knew what you had done? I imagine the shredding began on the eve of the first injunction they (RAMBUS) filed!

    --
    Can I bum a sig? I left mine at the office.
    1. Re: not a done deal... by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2, Interesting


      > > Rambus maintains the document destruction was part of the company's regular document retention policy...

      > Which leads one to wonder... what is that policy? Destroy it before the prosecution gets ahold of it?

      Most corporations (other than the ill-informed Pa & Ma shop) have "record retention policies" that are primarily designed to prevent documents from coming up in lawsuits. The should more properly be called "record destruction policies"; you catch holy hell if an audit shows that you've been keeping stuff you should have destroyed.

      Your government probably has laws that specify the minimum amount of time certain types of records must be maintained.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  10. Re:How pathetic by naarok · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But that isn't the point. Yes, they have the patent. The problem is that they were part of the standards body (SDRAM?) that pushed for technology that Rambus was in the process of (?had already?) patented. I think it was Rambus's duty to disclose the patent when they were helping to set the standard.

  11. Re:How pathetic by iCEBaLM · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's not the issue, the issue is that JEDEC addopted the technology as standard and RAMBUS went behind everyone else's backs and patented it. Quoth the article:

    Infineon, of Germany, and some other technology companies have accused Rambus of tricking computer-chip makers into adopting technologies for which it held or was seeking patents for chips in a wide range of electronic gear.

    Antitrust enforcers at the U.S. Federal Trade Commission leveled similar accusations in a lawsuit filed last year.


    This is not a simple case of patent infringement that you seem to think it is.

    -- iCEBaLM

  12. Re:How pathetic by Telastyn · · Score: 4, Informative

    Umm iirc this case isn't because Rambus invented the iron-steel-copper interconnecting rails and patented them, it's because they invented them, got everyone to agree to make them the standard, retool their factories to make them AND THEN patented them, pretty much screwing them.

  13. Re:How pathetic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If you made a chip that ran at 10 ghz right now because of your skill with iron-steel-copper interconnecting rails, and patented it in September of 2003, and the following year Intel used the same process, would you like it?
    No!


    The fact of the matter is Rambus lied to the JEDEC. I don't care if they held the patent (a piece of paper that only has power because you agree it has power) for 200 years. They lied. And shame on you mods for seeing insight in that post. Unless you are so stupid that it truly was insightful.

  14. Re:Not very well written by Ponty · · Score: 2, Funny

    Once again, why? As someone who doesn't have a modern i386, I really don't know anything about that world of RAM.

  15. Serial Ram is the future, but..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's incredibly scarey when the company that actually owns the patent to the technology that is the future of RAM can't play fair with the other children.

    Not intending to mislead the JEDEC is no excuse to doing it. They either did or didn't. Try telling a traffic cop you didn't intend to speed.

  16. The terrorists have already won... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    "ANY BREAKFAST BAGEL SANDWICH" at McDonald's!
    Terrorist 1: "What are we doing here, Abdul?"
    Terrorist 2: "It should be obvious, Mohammad. We are getting sandwiches."
    Terrorist 1: "This place is a symbol of all that is evil about the West, Abdul. Simply being present here corrupts the soul. It is an abomination before Allah."
    Terrorist 2: "The clown is indeed disturbing. But the large purple fungus-man amuses me."
    Terrorist 1: "You know that is not what I am talking about. This place flaunts its degenerate Western values in the face of Heaven. It must be expunged from the Earth!"
    Terrorist 2: "Keep your voice down, Mohammad."
    Terrorist 1: "IT IS THE WILL OF--"
    Terrorist 2: "SHUT UP, YOU FOOL! DO WANT TO BE ARRESTED BEFORE...ahh, before we can order our delicious food? No, no, fellow citizens, my friend is simply agitated about the--ahh--swill served at that Wendy's down the street. Not like this fine establishment. No, no."
    Crew chief: "Welcome to McDonalds, sir, can I take your order?"
    Terrorist 2: "Ahh, yes. I will have a Big Mac, regular fries, and a large orange drink."
    Crew chief: "And you, sir?"
    Terrorist 1: "Hmm. What is this 'Happy Meal' item?"
    Crew chief: "That's a children's meal, sir. You'd probably prefer a larger sandwich."
    Terrorist 1: "ZIONIST WHORE! YOU WILL BURN IN THE FLAMES OF HELL!"
    Terrorist 2: "SHUT UP, YOU FOOL! He--He--He is a collector! He needs but one more Hot Wheels toy to complete his collection! Right, uh, uh, Sam?"
    Terrorist 1: "Yes, fine."
    Terrorist 2: "Right. Right. He will have the cheeseburger Happy Meal with a cold refreshing Coca-Cola. I am very sorry he became so agitated."
    Crew chief: "That--That's okay, sir. Your order will be ready in just a moment."
    Terrorist 2: "Mohammad, you fool. You must keep your mouth shut. Let me do the talking."
    Terrorist 1: "My name is not Sam."
    Terrorist 2: "I know that. We are supposed to blend with the Americans, remember?"
    Terrorist 1: "Do not call me by degenerate Western names, Abdul."
    Terrorist 2: "Did you pay no attention during training? Weren't you listening to--"
    Crew chief: "Number 23!"
    Terrorist 2: "Come on. That's our food."
    Terrorist 1: "Hmm. This meal doesn't look very happy. And the portions are very small."
    Terrorist 2: "Shut up, Mohammad."
    Terrorist 1: "And this toy car appears to be cheaply constructed."
    Terrorist 2: "Shut up, Mohammad."
    Terrorist 1: "What is this?"
    Terrorist 2: "Hmmm? Oh, that's the Monopoly scratch-off game. Scratch away the silver parts of the card and you win a prize, like food or money. Not like that, Mohammad. Use a quarter."
    Terrorist 1: "Hmph. More tools for spreading blasphemous Western values."
    Terrorist 2: "Use the edge of the quarter, Mohammad."
    Terrorist 1: "Oh."
    Terrorist 2: "Allah help me..."
    Terrorist 1: "A-Abdul! Look! Look! I won!"
    Terrorist 2: "Really? That's wonderful. What was your prize?"
    Terrorist 1: "It says I won 'any breakfast bagel sandwich!' You see? What is a breakfast bagel sandwich?"
    Terrorist 2: "They slice a bagel in half, then put eggs and meat inside it. It's fairly tasty. Better than the pancakes, I'll tell you that."
    Terrorist 1: "I can't believe it! Can I get it now?"
    Terrorist 2: "No, they only serve that for breakfast. We'll get one in the morning, alright?"
    Terrorist 1: "I--I--Oh, alright. It cannot be helped. I still can't believe this, Abdul! I've never won anything before!"
    Terrorist 2: "You'll have to try the sausage bagel. You'll love it."

  17. Re:How pathetic by FuzzyBad-Mofo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What if you sat in on a RAM standards body for several years, secretly filed patent applications for some of their experimental ideas, then abruptly broke ranks and started suing the members of the standards body for royalties on their own ideas?

    As I understand it, this is basically what Rambus did. IMNSHO, protocol-based RAM is a stupid idea, anyhow..

  18. Re:How pathetic--You seem to have missed the point by qnonsense · · Score: 4, Insightful
    • We are all so caught up in hating RAMBUS, that we fail to realize
    • they rightfully own the patent under U.S. law no matter how many other people violated it...
    That's not the point. The point is, that when the JEDEC (of which RAMBUS Inc. was and is a member) was working up the SDRAM spec, RAMBUS somehow "forgot" to mention that they already had a patent on something that was going into the spec.

    In other words, it's not a matter of RAMBUS rightfully owning the patent under U.S. law and it never was. It's a matter of RAMBUS implicitly giving JEDEC (and any user of the free and open JEDEC SDRAM spec) a free license to use that patent when they "forgot" to tell the group about this little patent they had.

    So yes, RAMBUS owns the patent. However, they gave up their right to enforce it when they misled the JEDEC into incorporating it into the SDRAM standard.
    --
    There comes a time in every man's life when he must say, "No mother! I do not want any more Jell-O!"
  19. Re:How pathetic by Verteiron · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's a different case, and here's why.

    At the time that the SDRAM spec was created, great steps were taken to make sure that the spec did not contain patented material, or that the company with the patent did not plan on pursuing royalties. Essentially, Rambus was asked if they had any patents relating to the SDRAM spec. Rambus said, basically, "Don't worry about it."

    So JEDEC happily went on to create the SDRAM spec in the confidence that all companies involved had shown good faith.

    Later, once SDRAM was everywhere, Rambus tried to make everyone switch to their vastly more expensive Rambus RDRAM. When no one wanted to pay for it, it looked like curtains for Rambus, right? WRONG!

    Rambus turned around and said "Oh, by the way, we DO have patents on stuff in the SDRAM spec, and now we're going to collect insane amounts of money because it's now the industry standard."

    The issue is not, and has never been, whether or not Rambus's patents are valid. The issue is that they acted in bad faith, violated several signed agreeements, and are putting large portions of the IT industry at risk to preserve their own sorry asses.

    So yes.. it's a different case.

    --
    End of lesson. You may press the button.
  20. Re:Killing you Softly with Rambus by anonymous+loser · · Score: 2, Informative
    The whole Playstation 2's lack of units during its release was partially their fault

    Explain how. Rambus does not physically produce RAM, nor do they sell RAM. They simply license the technology they came up with to other companies, who are responsible for producing the chips.

  21. What this means by Andy+Muldowney · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is very bad news for owners of computers

    Hehe...but not if you own some Rambus stock :)

    Anyways, this might lead to lots of other pending lawsuits and cases against Rambus getting settled. The district court judge is taking a lot of flack now for how this case was handled - jury persuassion, etc. Expect to hear more about this in the coming days.

  22. Re:Not very well written by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    This slashdot story is written rather poorly.

    You're new here, right?

  23. Re:How pathetic by Aleatoric · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I have no real problem with RAMBUS enforcing their patent, as long as it's clear that they are doing so fully legally.

    The primary issues (that I'm aware of) are that RAMBUS is accused of essentially hiding the existence of the patent during the JEDEC collaboration and whether what Infineon has done actually constitutes infringement.

    The current ruling seems to indicate that there was no fraud involved in patenting during the JEDEC proceedings, but even that doesn't necessarily free RAMBUS from the onus of proving infringement. Whether the patent itself was initiated fraudulently or not, there is still a clause in patent law that they cannot sit on the patent and enforce it at a later date.

    In addition, it would also have to be demonstrated that Infineon (among other potentials) were aware that the technology involved was indeed patented at the time the implemented it. There is a substantial legal difference between willful and incidental infringement. And if it is true that RAMBUS stayed mum about the existence of their patent, it's pretty clear that any infringement that may have occured before knowledge of the patents existence would definitely be non-willful.

    I'm certainly not up on all aspects of this case, and there are most likely facts and items that I have no knowledge of, but the general perception is that RAMBUS is using ambush tactics as a profit mechanism.

    I have no problems with the concept of patents, and I have no problem with those who hold valid patents, but I do have a problem with patents being used for ambush tactics and the like. Likewise, if Infineon really did willfully infringe, I have no problem with them being brought to task for it.

    Obviously, there will be more to come in this saga, so it'll be interesting to see where the dust settles.

    --

    Nunc Tutus Exitus Computarus.

  24. Re:Not very well written by norculf · · Score: 5, Funny

    I can't really say. So far, my PA-RISC workstations's performance has not been impacted by this ruling. Further reports as events warrent...

  25. EEtimes has a slightly better clarification by morcheeba · · Score: 5, Informative

    The EETimes article on this story has (besides a lot more meat) a bit of an insight:

    "Having framed the duty of disclosure in the above terms, the court concluded that Rambus did not breach its duty as to the SDRAM standard because none of the claims in its patents and pending patent applications reads on that standard," [legal analyst] Balto added.

  26. Re:Rambus versus Qualcomm by ahess247 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Actually, the SDRAM royalties it has sought are thought to be closer to 0.75%. It was on DDR-SDRAM, which Rambus considered to be a would-be competitor to its own Direct Rambus RDRAM, that Rambus sought a royalty of 3.5%. See this story from Electronic Buyers News in 2001 concerning statements made in the trial.

  27. Re:What's the big deal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
    We should just all use DDR ram then.
    That's the problem: DDR is just a "double data rate" [duel channel] version of SD ram. This is why it's sometimes refered to as "DDR SDRam". If they're able to levy royalties on SD ram, then they'll very likely be able to levy royalties on DDR ram. Considering the awful position their own overpriced Rambus ram (with 16bit technology) is, they'll likely be wanting to make DDR/SD ram almost as expensive to being more expensive than Rambus ram, which they'll do if they can get away with it. Considering how much Rambus ram costs, this could seriously increase the cost of both new computers and especially upgrading older ones.
  28. How was JEDEC deceived? by evil_roy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Surely this whole case represents incompetency of the standards body & their lawyers. Are patents discoverable? Is this not part of due diligence? I would expect more than a quick question in determining these things. I expect that proper checks are made and binding agreements reached before progressing. It sounds like RAMBUS did the wrong thing...but why were they allowed to get away with it. They should have been caught way back and these issues sorted out. To stand up in court and plead both ignorance and trust as a case will never work.

    1. Re:How was JEDEC deceived? by Edgewize · · Score: 4, Informative

      Patents are only public when they are finally approved. During the interim between filing and approval, they are not visible. These so-called "submarine patents" can be kept invisible for years, if you know the appropriate paperwork tricks. That whole aspect of the patent process is under close scrutiny and it is already much harder to pull off than it was a few years ago.

      But the point is that RAMBUS filed for a patent, then pushed their idea as part of the SDRAM standard so that when their patent was finally granted, everyone would owe them money.

      There is no amount of diligence or research that could have unearthed those patents during the approval process, short of torturing the RAMBUS representatives.

    2. Re:How was JEDEC deceived? by FuzzyDaddy · · Score: 4, Funny
      short of torturing the RAMBUS representatives

      Which is starting to look attractive to some people about now...

      --
      It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
  29. RDRAM vs. DDR by netdemonboberb · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Why is RDRAM a bad thing for computer users? I think promoting better technology is a good thing for users. If people promoted the better technology instead of the cheaper one, companies couldn't dump their obsolete products on the market in order to decrease sales of the better technology. If people bought a product based on its quality, we would have things like organic LED displays instead of truly obsolete LCD screens and CRT monitors.

    I don't know where to stand on the issue of who had prior art, but I have talked to people on both sides and they seem to both have valid arguments. I don't believe any of the companies involved are boyscouts. What I am interseted in is which is the better technology. Obviously, if you look at the specs of Rambus, you will see that although DDR 266 is just a lower stepping of PC133 Ram and the bus is double-pumped. Rambus, on the other hand, has a lot more going for it. Its bus has less traces and allows you to more easily have more than one channel. It is also capable of shutting off portions of itself not in use.

    If you look at a Tom's Hardware article It mentions that there is a limitation with using parallel designs due to uncontrolled impedence.

    Not to mention that memory benchmarks available on many sites show that DDR can't continiously maintian its bandwidth like Rambus can. Instead, its bandwidth is spurty.

    Also, Rambus has many new things on the backburner.

    Rambus memory has also become much cheaper. I believe in leaving the decision of whether or not
    Rambus infringed on patents to the courts and going for what is the best technology so you can give it a boost. What holds back RDRAM in terms of price is that there isn't enough being sold.

    --

    Volunteer Mozilla developer, RPI Student.
    1. Re:RDRAM vs. DDR by leerpm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "What holds back RDRAM in terms of price is that there isn't enough being sold." Exactly. Because the price is too HIGH for the average consumer. If there was a clear benefit to using RDRAM over DDR that *JUSTIFIIED* the price difference then consumers would choose to buy RDRAM. We have a free enterprise system. People will buy a product only when there is a net benefit to them. I suggest you read up on some elementary economics if you would like to understand a little bit more about why people don't buy overpriced products.

    2. Re:RDRAM vs. DDR by PCBman! · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This was about Rambus' underhanded tactics with JEDEC which required all members to put patents related to what they were pushing as far as SDR and DDR SDRAM on the table BEFORE they made the specs final. Rambus, however, didn't do that. Instead, they held onto their patents while helping all the ram manufacturers settle on the SDRAM and DDR SDRAM specifications. Later, when the market wasn't adopting RDRAM fast enough--and the memory manufacturers saw no need to get RDRAM licenses (only samsung was making them at the time), Rambus went out and started telling the same ram manufacturers they worked with that they had to pay licensing fees.

      Technologically RDRAM's fine with some weaknesses early on as far as the desktop platform (embedded was another matter). Had Rambus acted honestly from the start, this whole matter could have been avoided.

      --
      So, when's lunch?
    3. Re:RDRAM vs. DDR by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Informative
      On the other hand, interleaved RDRAM has the same peak theoretical bandwidth of interleaved DDR SDRAM one quarter its clock rate because RDRAM chips have one quarter the bus width of SDRAM chips. 800 MHz RDRAM would be the same speed as 200MHz SDRAM assuming both (or neither) are interleaved. Many if not most modern SDRAM controllers support memory interleaving, including my old abit board which isn't even new enough to run an athlon XP.

      In addition SDRAM has ~10ns latency, RDRAM adds 2-20ns (do I have my units right? it is ns yes?) because it is a serial infrastructure, meaning some chips on a RIMM are farther from the memory controller than other chips on a RIMM. Every chip on a DIMM is the same distance from a memory controller; In theory this makes boards more expensive and raises system prices, but the licensing fees (and higher expense of manufacturing RIMMs over DIMMs, though that is secondary) raise the prices considerably.

      The belief that RDRAM is a superior technology to SDRAM is at best a matter of opinion and at worst an absurd myth. It COULD be a more cost-effective technology, and for systems which involve a minimum number of RAM chips like game consoles, it is effective because you are paying a minimal amount for licensing in exchange for the company playing up the fact that you're using it in their console even though that has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with its suitability in a PC, coupled with the fact that you are using very little of it making it a small portion of your total cost... RDRAM makes great sense when you're not using very much of it (down in the ~16 MB range, where you only need two to four chips) but when you start putting it in PCs it has little to offer over DDR SDRAM; When it has an additional licensing cost to pay over an already inflated price for more expensive modules, it has none.

      The benchmark you cite shows better performance for DDR SDRAM on intel's solutions than on the athlon system, which leads me to believe that it is possibly cpu-dependent.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:RDRAM vs. DDR by woogieoogieboogie · · Score: 2, Informative
      The benchmark you cite shows better performance for DDR SDRAM on intel's solutions than on the athlon system, which leads me to believe that it is possibly cpu-dependent.

      That would be because the FSB on the Athlon system is only 266(133 x2) [333 (166 x 2) on the new Athlons]whereas the FSB on the P4 is 533(133 x 4). The P4 simply has more available bandwidth 4.2 GB/s versus 2.1 Gb/s [2.6 for the newer Athlons]. Read here for how RAM bandwidth is calculated http://www.ocsystem.com/calmemban.html also http://www.upgradingandrepairingpcs.com/articles/u pgrade12_02_02.asp .

      --
      ... Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed...
    5. Re:RDRAM vs. DDR by netdemonboberb · · Score: 4, Interesting

      >On the other hand, interleaved RDRAM has the same >peak theoretical bandwidth of interleaved DDR >SDRAM one quarter its clock rate because RDRAM >chips have one quarter the bus width of SDRAM >chips. 800 MHz RDRAM would be the same speed as >200MHz SDRAM assuming both (or neither) are >interleaved. Many if not most modern SDRAM >controllers support memory interleaving, >including my old abit board which isn't even new >enough to run an athlon XP.
      Theoretical performance doesn't hold up in practical applications. That is why there is SPEC. Besides, RDRAM is designed so that you can easily make it a multi-channel architecture:
      Quote: "By moving the core logic to the CPU and thus incorporating the Rambus Memory Controller as a part of the CPU itself, much of the current latency problems plaguing the technology will disappear. Both Sun's upcoming MAJC and the Playstation 2 are examples of embedded solutions with ondie RMCs. Another example is Compaq's upcoming EV7 (Alpha 21364), which also uses 8 channels to support massive bandwidth requirements and to keep latencies down (instead of accessing large volumes of DRDRAM in serial from a single channel, which would increase latencies)."

      DDR SDRAM is more complicated to design in a multi-channel layout because of timing and motherboard design complexity issues. Besides, DDR SDRAM can't sustain its peak bandwidth even close to as well as RDRAM. Bursting isn't sustained bandwidth.(Remember, to transfer a byte, you have to transfer a QWORD. To transfer the next byte, you have to wait an entire clock cycle). Therefore, it only really allows 1/4 the peak bandwidth in this case.


      A very old article from Ace's Hardware says: "The Rambus channel sends out the data twice as fast as the SDRAM, but the SDRAM can send out the first 8 byte without waiting, while Rambus has to transfer 16 bytes. As Rambus can send 2 bytes every cycle, it takes 4 cycles of 2.5 ns to transfer 16 bytes or 10 ns."

      Of course, this is regarding 800Mhz RDRAM, and 1066Mhz RDRAM is currently out.

      Also, not many applications only send 16 bytes at a time. For random access bursting applications, like servers, this is common. On the other hand, for 3d games, you want a sustained bandwidth to send all that data to the graphics card.

      The aforementioned site speaks of examples where DDR SDRAM would be better because of its lower latency. In those cases, though, RDRAM will still be adequate.

      Also, I'm curious to see any mentions of RDRAM versus DDR performance on newer chipsets.

      > The benchmark you cite shows better performance > for DDR SDRAM on intel's solutions than on the
      > athlon system, which leads me to believe that
      > it is possibly cpu-dependent.

      Since memory bandwidth depends on FSB, Intel systems should have an advantage.

      >The belief that RDRAM is a superior technology to >SDRAM is at best a matter of opinion and at worst >an absurd myth.

      Didn't see you try to refute the fact that unused cores shut down (great for power management).

      > RDRAM makes great sense when you're not using >very much of it (down in the ~16 MB range...

      Comparison: 1GB system.(Picking anything more would severely skew things in RDRAM's favor).

      PC3700 DDR vs PC1066 RDRAM
      source of prices: pricewatch.com

      Generally RDRAM comes with two channels, while DDR generally comes with one.

      PC1066 RDRAM theoretical peak bandwidth (2 channels)= 1066*2*2 = 4.3 GB/s

      DDR3700 DDR theoretical peak bandwidth (1 channel)= 466 * 8 = 2.98 GB/s

      Price:
      DDR (512MB modules * 2) = $145 * 2 = $290
      RIMM (256MB modules * 4) = $80 * 4 = $320

      Yes, the motherboards for RDRAM based sets are more expensive, but the memory appears to be bearly more expensive in this case for twice the theoretical bandwidth. The RDRAM 512MB is more expensive than DDR 512MB, but since you usually find RDRAM in higher-channel configurations, this isn't an issue. Comparing prices is difficult since you have to pair RDRAM up.

      --

      Volunteer Mozilla developer, RPI Student.
    6. Re:RDRAM vs. DDR by Have+Blue · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Too bad RAMBUS doesn't share your faith in their own technology. They didn't care which RAM was better, their plan was to hit DDR suppliers with ever-increasing licensing fees, forcing them to raise prices until RDRAM was cheaper than DDR, and take over the market that way.

  30. Decent Judges? by use_compress · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Does anyone know if it's standard policy to give these highly technical cases to judges have tried similar cases before or have some background in the area? It is unfair to the Judges and the litigants give these cases to Judges who have a weak technical background.

  31. Re:Straight from the article... by frankthechicken · · Score: 2

    Damn 15 minute delay, I thought I would be cool and say the fuzzy math joke first :(. Why is it unfair to be denied access to a university because you are black, but fair to be let in based on the

    Is there a fifteen minute delay on your sig as well, I'm hanging on tender hooks waiting for the rest, is it going to released in installments?

    Back slightly on topic how long is the delay going to be for the actual decision, and can Ranmbus afford to wait for the decision to come back?

    The judges sent the patent infringement case back to a lower court for reconsideration, saying it had failed to properly define five key technical terms.

    Does any one have any details on what the five key technical terms are? Could be interesting to see whether they are simply technicalities.

    The company consists of 180 people, including 130 engineers, 45 corporate staff and four lawyers.

    Is the other dude the stock holder?

  32. get over it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Everything's fucked. Cant people move on?

    Yes we're all going to be enslaved and humanity's probably screwed for another millenium. Geeks need to figure out how to obey the corporations and morons. Just live mediocre lives. It's not that hard, millions of people do it everyday. Maybe freedom and liberty is overrated. After all the Russians survived communism didnt they? (though it's true that communists werent well funded).

    Sorry. I'm not just getting depressed. I really think this is a losing battle. Is it that "geeks" cant connect with the general public? All over the world the fundamental concepts of freedom are being squashed and there's nothing we can do but observe it and say "damn, that sucks". Why bother?

  33. Re:is it just me or... by Fallen+Kell · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I agree it doesn't make sense. Even by assuming it is suppose to be "rising $5.475" to close at $11.69, $5.754 is not a 57% increase of $6.215 which is what it would have to have started at to close at $11.69

    It is also not a 57% increase in the assumption that the cloes value was $116.9.

    Yahoo should do better reporting, their own stock quoter lists shows the correct values "+4.25, 57% raise" Linked

    --
    We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
  34. Re:Better read... by LinuxGeek · · Score: 3, Insightful
    my .SIG is a great ironic comment on this whole affair, considering that RAMBUS prolly bought this verdict by smokin' Duh!bya's johnson.

    Such prose by a ./ reader! Did you happen to read the article before you crafted your witty response?
    The FTC has asked an administrative law judge to rule immediately against Rambus, saying the company engaged in a campaign of "massive" document destruction at least partly out of concern that some internal documents could be used to press antitrust charges against the company and invalidate its valuable patents.

    Does anyone grow weary of the uninformed bashing? The story is about these two paragraphs
    A three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit ruled 2-1 that a lower court had erred and that the evidence did not support part of a jury ruling for Infineon.

    The judges sent the patent infringement case back to a lower court for reconsideration, saying it had failed to properly define five key technical terms.

    No actual change of verdict on the rambus case, mainly a proceedural flaw. Where in this story is anything that justifies your comment about Rambus and Bush? Most of us eagerly await your evolution into a real human being.
    --

    Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
  35. Something doesn't seem right here by kien · · Score: 3, Interesting
    From the article:

    "In sum, substantial evidence does not support the jury's verdict that Rambus breached its duties" to disclose patents, the judges wrote in the ruling. "No reasonable jury could find otherwise."

    I didn't read the full decision of the court (and I probably wouldn't understand much of it if I did...I speak Perl, not legalese) but something seems wrong when a 3-judge federal circuit court can overturn the ruling of a jury with language like that. I mean, if the administration of the case was mis-handled or the judge screwed up...I could perhaps understand. Maybe someone more familiar or more enlightened could explain this further.

    --K.
    --
    Sig: Bad people happen. Try to avoid being one of them.
    1. Re:Something doesn't seem right here by AndroidCat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The 9-judge supreme court can overturn a jury. I think the argument before the appeal court was about the law, not the facts. Juries weigh the facts, judges handle the law.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    2. Re:Something doesn't seem right here by capologist · · Score: 4, Informative
      From the article:

      "In sum, substantial evidence does not support the jury's verdict that Rambus breached its duties" to disclose patents, the judges wrote in the ruling. "No reasonable jury could find otherwise."
      ...something seems wrong when a 3-judge federal circuit court can overturn the ruling of a jury with language like that.


      It's not at all unusual for an appellate court to reverse a jury's verdict. However, the standards for doing so are very high; it's not sufficient that the appellate court strongly disagree with the verdict, but rather that no reasonable jury could reach the verdict based on the evidence before it.

      In a sense, it is a procedural review, because a jury's finding that can not reasonably be based on the evidence generally means that the finding is on a question that should not have been submitted to the jury in the first place.
  36. Re:What's the big deal? by barc0001 · · Score: 5, Informative

    > but the effect of Rambus royalties is insignificant at best.

    Ah yes, the "it only costs us a couple of bucks, why worry" argument. So, when DRM laws get passed, and all the DACs on your sound card have to support DRM and they start costing $7 per unit on the sound card instead of a couple of cents, don't worry? And the same in the CD/DVD drive.. And then the video card makers find out about one of the partners in the AGP spec have a patent on something or other and video cards cost $15 more for "royalties", and then the network cards, and so on and so on, and then all together that brand new PC costs an extra $100 as a result of legislation and royalties, we just should suck it up because it's only a bit here and a bit there?

    >I read a while ago about the cost of RDRAM. The cost premium has not so much to do with Rambus royalties as it does low yields during fabrication.

    So that's the buyer's fault that they have an inherently less efficient production process? And almost nobody was paying Rambus royalties, because almost nobody besides a couple of Rambus' best friends was/is making RDRAM anyway, since DDR SDRAM is cheaper and faster.

    >The story mentioned that in the total cost of a 128 or 256 MB RIMM, some 3-5 dollars was the royalty.
    >This was also when memory prices were significantly higher per meg.

    The price of a DIMM on a per meg basis will not have any effect on the royalies that go to RAMBUS as a result. If a DIMM cost $25 before and $30 now, when its price would have dipped to $10, it'll still cost $15.

    > Maybe $3-5 pisses you off a whole lot, but in exchange for great memory design (RDRAM is damn good for P4) I'd say its a small price to pay.
    >I didn't here you complaining that Philips owns the CD standard.

    Maybe that's because Philips didn't sit on a council to decide what the next audio system to replace cassette tapes was going to be, secretly patent a whole pile of technology around CDs, then push everyone to adopt CDs, wait a few years for CDs to become firmly entrenched in the marketplace, bring out their own SuperCD(TM) format, watch it tank, and then turn to Sony and all the others who used the "jointly developed" CD standard for all of their devices and go "Hey guys, we've got this patent we never told you about on the CD format to do with X. As a result you all owe us $5 a player. Large bills preferred. Thanks."
    No. Instead Philips developed the standard themselves with Sony's help and both licensed it to everyone, up front, with clear and open terms . And, Philips is rather adamant about defending the standard as well. All of these "copy protected" audio discs aren't allowed to use the "Compact Disc" logo, you'll notice. Philips won't let them.

  37. Re:Not very well written by jazman_777 · · Score: 5, Funny
    This slashdot story is written rather poorly. For example you could have explained why it is a bad thing for computer owners. Only the statement alone looks a bit too little.

    You have to wait for the second posting of this news, at least. Just be a little patient.

    --
    Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
  38. slashdot considered harmful by Xtifr · · Score: 3, Funny

    The really strange thing (to me) is that back when I first met ChrisD (back when he was involved with SVLUG), he was as intelligent and insightful as the next fellow. Now he joins the /. editorial staff, and he suddenly seems to have lost the ability to read or comprehend. Is it possible that working as a slashdot editor can actually cause physical brain damage? :)

    Indeed, the jury is still out (as it were) on Rambus. They have won a decision, but not the case. The case is going back to the lower court.

    1. Re:slashdot considered harmful by On+Lawn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That brings up a very good question. I remember trolls imbedding wronchy stuff in otherwise informative posts just to laugh when moderators modded them up. Its not difficult, when we have 100+ comments a story, its rare that one will be completely read.

      What does having to choose from 100+ submissions a day do? I've had submissions get canned, half an hour before someone else's link to the same story goes up. I'm not complaining, but how do they decide and what does that do to a brain?

      Doing some moderation on K5, I can tell you that its gruelling after a while. I don't know how they keep up like they do. And now they are in the buisness of multi thousand word stories. A boon to sci-fi for sure, but a drain on editors.

      That might be one of the reasons I started my own site, I like the small-town atmosphere of a personal website. I like going out and finding my own content. Doing what these guys do has to be hazardous to the brain.

      I hope that by continuing this thread I will not be tempting the fate of these god-like but fallible figures.

      -----------------
      OnRoad: It gets you there and back again.

  39. Re:bad for computers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's so bad because you forgot the five letters that follow DDR. And those are S, D, R, A, and M. Double-Data Rate Synchronous DRAM. It's nothing more than faster SDRAM.

  40. Is it just me... by bob670 · · Score: 5, Interesting
    and I'm sure it is, but has the past 5-8 years of massively faster development slowly sucked the joy out of computing. The mega-corporations and scumbags like Rambus who deal in little white lies and gray areas are making this a joyless industry and hobby.

    Maybe if we would have slowed the pace, not tried to jump start the PC industry with clock speed wars and bus bandwidth statistics, and as an industry concentrated on elegant solutions, innovative design and bringing something truly new to the consumer the market for PCs and software would not have stagnated so brutally? It's more than obvious that the current approach failed.

    The massive interest in the first wave of iMacs proves that consumers are hungry for something new, but marketing clockspeed and Apple's insane need to keep prices high killed that movement. Maybe a glimmer of hope from Small Form Factor or Mini-ITX (which I sit and type from at the moment)?

    What the hell does this have to do with Rambus? Rambus is part of the brute force/clockspeed eccentric computing industry. They have zero interest in the customer or industry partners, just in money (I know, I'm a capitalist pig at heart too, but there's more to it then that). When their product doesn't sell, they sue their partners, partners gained under false pretense.

    So would the industry be better off if we were just getting to 2gHz? If DDR was just taking off in the market place? If Microsoft concentrated on fixing Windows 95 instead of pushing out incremental upgrades every 18-24 months? Would processor upgrades feel really substantial if the architecture were more elegant and devs more concious of performance? If Linux devs stopped trying to emulate the Windows desktop and feature creep and tried to break away from the desktop metaphor? Would it be a better industry (and would the consumer still be interested) if Apple had 30% market share and users really had alternatives?

    Yes, the market would be more fragmented and support would be more challenging. Yes, 3gHz is cool, but who needs it? Yes, XP is better than 95, but could we have gotten there in 2 upgrades instead of 5, and caught the security holes along the way. How cool would the Linux desktop be if KDE was built from the ground up not to be like Windows (flame retardent boxers activate!)?

    We would certainly have fewer 800lb gorillas, and a more interesting landscape. I think so...

    1. Re:Is it just me... by Infamous+Tim · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree, and I think the issue that you're really hit upon is one of quality vs quantity. The computer industries have been pursuing the latter strategy for quite a long time. When apple started to design chips that had less clock speed, took less power, and had more "muscle per clock cycle," the marketing dodos at Intel said "it's slower because ours has a bigger number" and customers believed them. The same is happening with the big AMD vs Intel battle. AMD had to rename it's line to this ridiculous 2400+ kind of stuff.
      Apple gave up on the clock-speed game and finally focused instead upon making beautiful products that the Apple fanatics would buy. I've never been a fan of their gear until recently, when I messed around on a Powerbook. I felt right at home in that BSD environment. I actually think that the computer industry should moving more in this direction. More towards open source, more towards beautiful and powerful products and not just pimping out hardware.

      --
      checking for libvirus... no
      ERROR, libvirus.so not found, terminating
  41. Full Story by doogieh · · Score: 4, Informative

    The decision was by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit in Washington, D.C. It is a special federal appeals court that hears patent cases and special federal issues such as takings, veterans affairs, and federal contract disputes.

    The outcome is surprising on its facts, as the documentation shows that Infineon had actual intent to deceive other members of the memory industry.

    However, the Federal Circuit now has a twenty year history of ignoring the law and creating its own jurisprudence in favor of strong patent rights. In the process, economic efficiency, fairness, and consumer protection have been lost.

    Although the court is limited to patents, it frequently rewrites antitrust law to exclude liability for patent misuse. It frequently revises claim constructions on an ad-hoc, nonsensical basis that is impossible to predict, often ignoring the patent itself, and almost always in favor of the patent holder.

    It has made invalidity harder to prove, requiring printed documentation of all elements of a claimed invention, and has limited obviousness to a very narrow set of circumstances where documents actually state that a patented combination is in the prior art. This is somewhat of an oversimplification, but it is unfortunately almnost accurate.

    It has expanded the realm of patents to include business methods (harming free enterprise by making the mere right to enter an industry subject to patent rights), genomes (which, while they already exist, are always useful for growing hair--by using this claim they can cover all uses for the genome), and algorithms.

    It frequently ignores federal procedural law, and has been reversed a few times by the supreme court on these grounds in recent years.

    While many on slashdot frequently cite the "Microsoft Patents 1 and 0" story from the Onion, the Federal Circuit has actually gone that far in real life. In a patent case brought by Excel Corp., the Federal Circuit affirmed the validity of a patent over a one bit flag used to determine whether two parties on a phone were using the same phone provider.

    Yes, Excel has a patent on a one bit flag (ones and zeros) when applied to phone networks!

    There is much more to say about this, but that is for another day.

    1. Re:Full Story by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 2, Informative


      However, the Federal Circuit now has a twenty year history of ignoring the law and creating its own jurisprudence in favor of strong patent rights.

      Perhaps, although my experience with this court led to a competitor's patent being invalidated.

      This court was established for a pretty good reason - prior to its existance patent appeals were tried in a wide variety of courts with little or no patent experience all over the country, with a mish-mash of quite inconsistant results. Stuff like venue shopping was quite common. The result was chaos in the extreme, and something like 90% of challenged patents were being invalidated by judges with little or no patent law experience. This meant that any company with deep enough pockets could run over the actual inventor almost at will, with little regard to the actual value of the patent.

      While this court may have gone too far in the other direction (in particlar in the area of business methods), the concept of a court of this nature, and the need to have more uniform interpretation of patent law was obvious at the time, and in fact this court has probably done more good than harm in the aggregate.

  42. Re:Good to know by barc0001 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    From what I can tell, Philips is one of the "good guys". Well, as much as a corporation can be a "good guy". At least I personally haven't heard of them doing anything outright evil. Also, Philips is not like the companies we're used to dealing with in North America. Being based in northern Europe seems to give them a bit of a more pragmatic outlook on things, IMHO.

  43. Re:Wrong .. see the docterine of lasches by SirSlud · · Score: 4, Informative

    You! Yes, you.

    Time to learn about Docterine of Lasches ... what is that you might ask?

    Well, its illegal to sit on a patent that you own, and purposely delay patent litigation for your own financial gain. If you didn't know about the infringement, then its fine. Not every company can act as a world-wide watchdog for patent infringers. But if you knew somebody was using your patent, and you held off on enforcing it for your own financial gain, there are precendents that make this illegal.

    Link and learn

    --
    "Old man yells at systemd"
  44. see the docterine of lasches (oops, link is here) by SirSlud · · Score: 3, Informative

    er, I'll learn to link, first .. but herer it is

    --
    "Old man yells at systemd"
  45. Read the decision online by ScottForbes · · Score: 2, Informative

    U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, Rambus v. Infineon Technologies [corrected]. If the site asks for a password, hit "Cancel" and the document (a 60-page MS Word file) should appear.

  46. I Saw It All in the 4th Curcuit Court... by TheWanderingHermit · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I was working as a videographer when Rambus went after Infineon in the 4th circuit court (Richmond, VA). I sat in on a LOT of depositions, both from Rambus witnesses, and from Infineon witnesses. I have to say the Rambus lawyers were always polite and wonderful to work with. The Infineon lawyers were always blowhards and bastards. If a Rambus lawyer had to delay a deposition, s/he would make sure the clerk and I were notified as soon as possible and, if we were already on site, would make sure we could get a meal if the delay would make us miss lunch or dinner. The Infineon lawyers went beyond ignoring us to being just downright rude.

    I have to say, compared to the legal issues, this is neither here nor there. I just found it interesting.

    On the other hand, after listening to deposition after deposition, I heard more than I'll ever want to know about JEDEC, Rambus, and anything related. Even to me, who works with computers but hasn't brushed up on electronics in years, it was clear, after several weeks, Rambus was hanging onto a thin thread and was basically bluffing.

    I remember one lawyer going on and on with an expert witness. He kept asking if a flip-flop was switch and if it could be considered memory. The lawyer kept badgering him for a yes or no answer. It got even more fun when the witness finally asked if he was talking about an RS or JK flip-flop. It was clear, at least to me (and I'm sure to the witness) that this lawyer had not even read the most basic info on electronics and memory.

  47. Re:How pathetic by rot26 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yeah, I don't get that. Surely that sort of thing should be illegal.

    I mean, talk about entering into a business deal in bad faith.


    "should be". Well, the world is full of "should be's".

    Unfortunately, the courts don't care about abstract notions like "right" and "wrong", it's all about the law, which is OFTEN "wrong".

    --



    To ensure perfect aim, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target
  48. $1 billion in royalties... by vandan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Glad they can afford to pay off the judges.
    The US justice system stinks.
    And don't even get me started on their foreign policy.

  49. Re:How pathetic by Natalie's+Hot+Grits · · Score: 2, Funny

    your example is a little different than actuality, here's what really happened:

    (RAMBUS's business model)

    1) Go to JDEC meeting
    2) sign a contract that says you cannot patent technology introduced into the JDEC specification, and you must reveal all patents you hold or are pending that may conflict with the JDEC specification
    3) Use JDEC specifications to produce a patent on memory technology. Also, introduce your (patented) ideas at the JDEC meeting and get it in the JDEC standard.
    4) ???
    5) Pofit!

    --
    Two infinite things: your stupidity and mine. But I'm not sure about the latter. If my sig offends you, I'm sorry.
  50. Re:Does "Suits at common law" refer to civil cases by Lionel+Hutts · · Score: 3, Informative

    "Suits at common law" does indeed refer to civil suits, but only those "at law."

    The more significant exception is the word "preserved": you are entitled to a jury trial only in those cases for which the common law provided one at the time the amendment was adopted. This makes the analysis of "at common law" extraneous, because only the law courts provided for trials by jury: the equity and ecclesiastical courts provided trials only by (their equivalents of) judges. (Equity courts heard, among other things, cases involving remedies other than money damages; Delaware still has a separate "chancery" court. The ecclesiastical courts heard divorce actions, and other stuff no longer relevant.)

    The seminal recent case interpreting the amendment is, in fact, from a few years ago on patent law. The trouble was, of course, that patent law in its present form did not exist in 1790, but the Supreme Court found the issue of infringement close enough to cases handled in law courts then. Thus, either the plaintiff or defendant may demand a jury trial.

    --
    I Can't Believe It's A Law Firm, LLP does not necessarily endorse the contents of this message.
  51. Re:How pathetic by FuzzyBad-Mofo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Actually, I was expressing my educated opinion on RAM interfaces, seeing how I happen to posess a degree in electronics engineering. I don't like the RDRAM design because serialization of RAM is a tradeoff on bandwidth; adding the necessary communications protocols will further restrict the flow of data. To offset the serial bottleneck, the clock speed must be greatly increased. This leads to greater heat dissipation, fewer units that pass QA, and ultimately, a less scalable solution overall.

    Yes, I do have a silly /. handle. That's what I get for using a ramdom name generator program. :/

  52. Rader's opinion by doogieh · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Judge Rader's opinion, in a nutshell, is that because the organization's rules were ambiguous then Rambus' conduct can't be said to be fraud.

    Unfortunately, Rambus' internal smoking gun documents show that they knew what the rules meant, and intentionally tried to flout them.

    This decision, which reversed a jury verdict on the basis of lack of evidence really is "beyond the pale."

  53. Fuzzy Math by PetWolverine · · Score: 2, Funny

    The company's stock soared on the news, rising $54.75, or 57 percent, to close at $11.69 on Nasdaq.

    So the company's stock rose $54.75, to close at $11.69...having opened at what, -$43.06?

    How can a stock price be negative? Does this mean that more shares were sold short than actually existed? So somebody borrowed stock, sold it short, borrowed it back, and sold it short again...

    --
    I found the meaning of life the other day, but I had write-only access.
  54. Won't be accepted elsewhere by Baki · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In Europe and also Asia Rambus claims won't be accepted. This might become an interesting precedent, where the US thinks it can rule the (economic) world by setting "standards" w.r.t. protecting IP, and the rest may get fed up with this selfcentered protectionist interpretation and implementation of IP laws.

  55. Re:Not very well written by Znork · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This has nothing to do with RDRAM. This is about DDR SDRAM. If Rambus wins these cases they can freely cash in royalties off DDR SDRAM. Which means you're gonna pay as much for DDR SDRAM as you do for RDRAM.

  56. Re:Not very well written by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I agree, someone's being either anal or a nazi. I also agree with the top-level poster =they (the authors) should have posted details as to why this is bad, but in regards to IA32, while the first time it was posted on the web may be 1996, my copy ob Borland C/C++ 3.1 came with an assembler opcode manual that mentions the ia32 instruction set, and this was circa 1991 :-)