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What's Worse for Hard Drives: Heat or Vibration?

gottabeme asks: "I turned on my computer the other day and all of a sudden the BIOS said the S.M.A.R.T. status was "Bad: backup and replace." The drive has continued working in PIO mode (instead of DMA) long enough for me to get a new drive and copy everything over. When I finished copying and put the new drive in the cage where the old one was, I realized that the fan at the front of the cage which was keeping the drive cool to the touch was causing a fair amount of vibration to be transferred to the hard drive. The other 7200rpm drive without a fan was pretty warm, but had no vibration at all. The bad drive is only a few years old, and I've never had a drive fail on me in around 10 years of computer use, until now. And until I got this case and drive I'd never had a fan blowing on a drive before. Who knows what caused the problem, but all this has made me wonder: Which is worse for a hard drive? Heat that's fairly warm to the touch, or constant vibration from a case fan right next to it? Any readers care to offer their experiences and knowledge?"

146 comments

  1. easy answer by fateswarm · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    "What's Worse for Hard Drives: Heat or Vibration?"

    CAPACITY!

  2. Vibration is probably the worst by stevew · · Score: 4, Informative

    Vibration is probably the worst enemy to the drive since it can send the head crashing into the drive surface. Modern drives have a pretty high shock rating, but this is substantialy reduced if they're operating. Even then they are considerably better than they were even 5 years ago.

    That being said - head is more an issue for the drive electronics than it would be for the physical drive.

    Summary - drives have moving parts - they wear out for lots of reasons. Vibration and heat should be avoided to prolong their service life.

    --
    Have you compiled your kernel today??
    1. Re:Vibration is probably the worst by ed1park · · Score: 1

      Here's some food for thought...

      The person is interested in the vibration from cooling fans.

      What about the 300+ watt surround sound systems with mega sub woofers playing mp3's, dvd's, etc?

      Are there natural resonating frequencies to be avoided? Or just low bass frequencies in general?

      I believe there may have been a previous "ask slashdot" that attempted to address this issue.

    2. Re:Vibration is probably the worst by Webmoth · · Score: 1

      IMHO, I don't see how fan-induced vibration can cause a head to go crashing into the platter. It's just not significant enough to do this. A good swift kick on the other hand can certainly do some damage. A good swift kick on your computer can, too.

      That's not to say that fan vibration is not a problem. It indeed may be. The vibration, though small, won't have enough displacement to crash a head, but it could be enough to induce excess wear on the bearings in the drive. This in turn could cause the platters (or the head) to wobble or bind, eventually leading to seek errors, even a head crash. (Think: if the platter's wobbling, the data's physically not where it should be.)

      But no, fan vibration won't directly cause a head crash.

      Probably the best solution is to look for a smooth-running fan and shock mount it.

      --
      Give me my freedom, and I'll take care of my own security, thank you.
  3. Vibration by TheCrimsonUnbeliever · · Score: 4, Informative

    Vibration is the killer - knocking heads about all the time - Heat is something that can be bad - but only in extremes (70 C+)

    Move the fan - Or screw it in better to kill the vibration

    1. Re:Vibration by unitron · · Score: 1
      "Or screw it in better to kill the vibration"

      In many cases that just couples the vibration to the chassis better. However, if the fan is vibrating the hard drive severely enough to cause damage then there is something wrong with the fan.

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

    2. Re:Vibration by Oculus+Habent · · Score: 1

      Damned if I can remember what they are called right now - been up too long for that - but they are like rubber washers on crack. Using them to mount fans will significantly reduce vibration.

      Of course, if you have the time, you can use this same principle to isolate the drive, or drive cage, from the chassis.

      Doing this could not only reduce the vibration experienced by your drives, but you can probably reduce noise.

      Sorry for the vague post.

      --
      That what was all this school was for... to teach us how to solve our own problems. -- janeowit
    3. Re:Vibration by Keith_Beef · · Score: 2, Informative

      nice bright yellow polyurethane Silentblocs?

    4. Re:Vibration by Martok7 · · Score: 1

      Vibration definitely is the killer here. Most people just screw in their drives with 2 screws. Everyone who can install a hard drive should have enough brains to figure out that it needs to be as secure as possible.

      --
      I never liked you
  4. Heat vs. Vibration by david4286 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In one of my computers with relatively low ventilation, the relatively old (only 4-5 years) harddrive is in perfect condition. However, in my newer computer, things weren't as perfect. I have a fan on one of the drives (rather loosely conneted, open to vibration), which recently began to malfunction.

    However, I believe that the cause of this was overwork and stress on an old and rather weak drive. Have you recently put excessive stress (such as copying entire file systems) on the drive? In all, it seems that heat hasn't played a major factor in disrupting quality in my experiences.

  5. Silly question by MerlynEmrys67 · · Score: 3, Informative
    What is stopping you from replacing the fan, replacing it with a low vibration replacement and then you have low heat, AND low vibration.

    The other thing is newer drives seem to be quite a bit more prone to failure than drives even 5 years ago, don't know if that is because of cost reduction, or higher speeds

    --
    I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them
    1. Re:Silly question by KDan · · Score: 1

      Certainly true. In my ten years of computing I've had... let me count... 1...2 drive failures. That's out of maybe a dozen drives. The ones which failed had capacities of respectively 8.6Gb and 4Gb.

      Since the 8.6Gb one I don't trust single hard drives as a reliable storage medium anymore (ie I backup all my mp3's onto CDs). Daniel

      --
      Carpe Diem
    2. Re:Silly question by gottabeme · · Score: 1

      Well my case is an Antec SX830, and the fan mount in the hard drive cage is just a plastic snap-in holder. It sure is convenient, but perhaps in the end it's not as good as screw-in mounting. It doesn't hold the fan tightly, so it's a lot easier for it to vibrate.

      --
      "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
    3. Re:Silly question by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you need to modify the fan mounting. You could make up little brackets, or just use hot-melt glue on it. Hot-melt glue is usually strong enough to hold things but weak enough to be peeled off.

    4. Re:Silly question by massive-cow · · Score: 1

      2 failures out of 12 drives? That's a 16% failure rate - no small number!

      --
      Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. - Dijkstra
    5. Re:Silly question by Martok7 · · Score: 1

      yeah no joke. Those aren't good stats. I have been working with computers for 12 years and have gone through numerous drives (more than I can count), and I think my stats are a good deal lower than that. The only ones that ever crash are the work-horse ones. But we expect them to crash every so often. I have rarely ever seen a standard computer users drive fail (unless it was because of old equipment). It seems to me we can expect around 3 or so years for hardware after that your chances of failure are high.

      --
      I never liked you
    6. Re:Silly question by KDan · · Score: 1

      Well, maybe I'll be lucky in the future as I've used up my statistical bad luck for the next 10 drives at least :-P *hopes*

      Daniel

      --
      Carpe Diem
  6. Heat/Vibration by H4326137 · · Score: 1

    I don't think that either of those should cause any problems.

    1. Re:Heat/Vibration by H4326137 · · Score: 1

      If you move the fan that is.

  7. Solution: Don't use front fans by Tuxinatorium · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A single 120mm fan, or two 80mm fans in the back, in addition to the power supply fans, are enough to provide plenty of air circulation and keep everything well below temperature tolerances, unless your case's front ventilation passages suck. I don't understand why the heck people try and put 5 or 6 loud fans in their case to drop the operating temperatures from 34 degrees to 30 degrees when the damn things were made to operate up to and above 50 degrees.

    PS: For those who can't grasp the obvious, yes, I'm talking celcius here. The Imperial system should be abolished because it's so damn inefficient to work with. But that's another rant for another day.

  8. I'm sure it depends by MattCohn.com · · Score: 1

    I'm sure it depends on the drive and situation, but think of it this way. Would you want your data that's spinning round-n-round at 7200 RPM hot to the touch, or would you want it vibrating, possibly throwing off the constant spinning? I'd say fan be damned, keep it still.

  9. My experience has been heat by Zeio · · Score: 3, Informative

    My experience has been that heat causes more problems over the long haul. Also, any time a hard drive is at an angle from level that isn't 0 or 90 degrees that is very bad. As far as vibration goes, I usually make an effort to fasten the drive firmly to the case (use all 4 screws), so like a seatbelt, this would prevent the hard drive from vibrating much unless the whole case it vibrating.

    The new Cheetah 15.3 drives are double the density per platter, faster, give off less noise and dissipate less heat then previous generations. Less heat dissipation is the most impressive attribute moving forward. Any time you do see fast server drives implemented by vendors or in storage cabinets you notice the ventilation is superior, and that they suggest operating them in environments under 80 degrees F. (I prefer 72, low humidity).

    The asics and electronics on the drive probably like cold temperatures rather than low vibration, and the speed of the platter's rotation created a gyroscopic effect meaning you would have to jar the drive well beyond the specified maximum (hard drive manuals list a maximum G shock while in operation). If you are vibrating the dive out of the specified limits, most likely a conservative figure, you are essentially intentionally trying to damage the disk.

    --
    Legalize the constitution. Think for yourself question authority.
    1. Re:My experience has been heat by neitzsche · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Also, any time a hard drive is at an angle from level that isn't 0 or 90 degrees that is very bad.

      I agree! I once mounted a 40GB drive 180 degrees (in the last possible space in a small case) instead of just buying a new case. It died in about a month, I presume due to the grease settling the wrong way, and no longer lubricating the bearings, indirectly increasing the heat.

      So these days, I won't mount a hard drive at 90 degrees either. It's worth $60 for a new case, to ensure they are mounted at 0 degrees.

      --
      "God is dead." - Frederik Nietzsche
  10. Vibration is worse by Haroldo · · Score: 1

    Vibration is something you may want to avoid as much as possible. Heat isn't such a problem with disks IMHO. You might have to worry though if you live in a country where environmental temperatures are 30 or more degrees C.

    --
    Read between the lines while parsing.
    1. Re:Vibration is worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As I write this, the ambient temp is 40 C and I've never had an HDD problem. God knows what the temp is inside the case, I've never tried ot monitor it. Qld, Australia

  11. trick question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Trick question... heat is vibration.

    1. Re:trick question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes, heat is molecular vibration, at molecular scales.

      Macroscopic/mechanical vibration also causes heat, in a thermodynamic sense.

      So what's your point?

    2. Re:trick question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So wouldn't the only correct answer be Vibration then? So whoever said Vibration first wins, everybody else go read strongbads email or something.

  12. My take by jsse · · Score: 1

    Which is worse for a hard drive? Heat that's fairly warm to the touch, or constant vibration from a case fan right next to it?

    Leakage of inert gas inside. A well-made drive can endure heat and vibiration you mentioned, but it can't stand a single day after its gas leakage(can live a week if the leakage is not severe).

    The cause of it might be extreme mishandling, but most of the case is the faults in the manufacturing process.

    1. Re:My take by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What do you mean by this? Harddrives _require_ gas inside to function. The read/write head actually flies on a cushion of air that is generated by the rotating platters.

    2. Re:My take by unitron · · Score: 2, Informative

      There is no inert gas inside a hard drive, it's just plain ol' air, albeit extremely clean air. Hard drives have a vent (which is a filter with extremely small holes) which allows the air pressure inside and outside of the drive to remain equalized.

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

    3. Re:My take by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should listen to those two other posters. Hard drive platters don't operate in a hermetically sealed environment. They NEED air -- so long as it's clean.

    4. Re:My take by renecarlos · · Score: 1

      >Hard drives have a vent (which is a filter with extremely small holes) which allows the air pressure inside and outside of the drive to remain equalized.

      Hmmm, I guess there are two types of drives then. A former supervisor of mine flew an experiment on a NASA U-2. The drives had to be in a pressure box, even though we were still a ways from the vacuum of space. The problem was that the HD's cases would bulge, just enough to screw up head tracking.

    5. Re:My take by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can only vent through the filter so fast; the case might be strong enough for the difference between Death Valley (or whatever the lowest spot in the US is) and Denver, but rapid ascent to the edge of space could cause trouble.

      Someone might've made ruggedized, mil-spec drives that were wholly sealed; who knows?

    6. Re:My take by plsander · · Score: 2, Informative

      It is the lower of density in the atmosphere.

      Remember, HD heads "fly" above the platter -- if the air pressure (density) is too low, the head does not produce enough lift and will crash.

      Most HD specs will list an altitude or pressure range where operation of the drive is supported.

  13. Heat or Vibration? Neither! by 0x0d0a · · Score: 2, Insightful

    5400 RPM drives -- avoid both the heat *and* vibration problems.

  14. Don't know for sure... by adamjaskie · · Score: 1

    ...but I would think vibration would be worse. The drive heads sit very close to the surface of the platters, like, less than the thickness of a human hair IIRC. Heat could be bad, but the level of heat you are talking about (warm to the touch) I don't think is going to hurt anything. What you really have to worry about heat-wise is if it is HOT to the touch, so you cannot comfortably hold your finger there for an extended period of time. I know that in the case of vibration, it depends on the direction of the vibration. If it is paralell to the platters, it is not as bad as perpendicular to the platters. If the vibration is enough to cause the heads to contact the platters (head crash) then it would be quite bad indeed. However, it is more likely that you simply had a defective drive, that would have failed anyway.

    --
    /usr/games/fortune
  15. RAID. by 3-State+Bit · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Ever since those big drives started dropping like flies (IBM ones I think? It was all over slashdot) I vowed that if my primary computer ever becomes a desktop system again, it will have at least mirrored RAID. (I just mean raid-0).

    I've had way too many hard drives fail in my lifetime. (Three).

    And I'm only 19.

    What a sad, sad, world.

    So, yeah.

    1. Re:RAID. by Hex4def6 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Raid 0 is not real Raid. That doubles the speed of data transfer, by using 2 HDD, and pretending its one. You probably need Raid 0+1, which has speed benefits, and redundancy. It means of course 4 HDD, all identical...

    2. Re:RAID. by decep · · Score: 1

      I do not mean to be picky, but RAID-0 is not mirrored. RAID-1 is mirrored.

    3. Re:RAID. by maunleon · · Score: 1

      If you have raid-0, you will have an awful surprise the next time your drives fail. ;)

      Unless you can restore your volume somehow, you will lose all the drives that are raided together, since, surprise, you have absolutely no redundancy.

    4. Re:RAID. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You just showed your age, and ignorance.

      As the other folks pointed out, your luck is only overshadowed by your lack of knowledge.

    5. Re:RAID. by codingOgre · · Score: 1

      Raid 0 is not real Raid

      Umm, that is completely false. RAID(Redundant Array of Inexpesive Disks) has multiple levels (1-7), multiple combinations(1+0 or 0+1), and all of them are valid RAID configurations by definition.

      That doubles the speed of data transfer, by using 2 HDD, and pretending its one.

      BTW: You can use any number of disks(implementation specific) and do RAID 0 (I have 4 disk RAID 0 sets at work).

      You probably need Raid 0+1, which has speed benefits, and redundancy. It means of course 4 HDD, all identical

      RAID 10(1+0) is better because you stripe the mirror sets instead of mirroring the stripes. You can have only 1 drive fail in a 0+1 scenario (one disk fails and the mirror fails over to the other stripe). In a 1+0 scenario you can have 2 drives fail (as long as they are on different mirrors).

      --
      Space may be the final frontier, but it's made in a Hollywood basement. --Red Hot Chili Peppers, Californication
    6. Re:RAID. by 3-State+Bit · · Score: 1

      i was going to look it up, but figured, whatever. I've only ever done raid-5, with various numbers of disks (3-5, but only at work). i thought I remembered that raid-0 meant "not really raid" in terms of the idea that you get no speed increase, only redundancy. i.e. I thought I remembered the mnemonic: raid-0: Not really RAID, just mirroring.

      Rather, it means "not really raid" in terms of, it's not actually (r)edundant -- you only get a speed increase (from striping) without redundancy. (Obviously,t his interpretation makes more sense than my lapse in memory).
      Because I didn't stop for a second to look up my usage (as, obviously, I would before building a raid configuration), no fewer than FIVE people corrected me (no one wrote anything else) on this one number (writing zero for one), including one who said that my bad luck is surpassed only by my stupidity. (Not knowing that MIRRORED raid is raid 1 and STRIPED raid is raid 0, off the top of your head, you STUPID goddamn MORON. I hope you get FIRED for your gross INCOMPTENCE. YOU, sir/madam, are a professional LIABILITY.)

      Yeesh.

      So, yeah: I love slashdot.

      I love you I love you I love you.

  16. Don't worry about either by KevinIsOwn · · Score: 4, Informative

    The problem probably was niether vibration nor heat. Harddrives are made so that they can withstand high g-forces. Some review sites have said you could throw a harddrive against a wall while it is running and it would be fine. How true this is, I don't know, but I know fan vibrations are no where near large enough to cause a problem. While continued fan virbrations theoretically could be bad, fans don't vibrate all that much. I've used fans missing fins (don't ask!) that virbrate like crazy and never had problems (Not for long though, I generally replace those with non-broken fans)

    Heat is one of those things computer geeks fear most. We all want to get it as low as possible. Well let me tell you a little something about harddrive heat: Unless you have a drive spinning at 10,000 rpm or higher, you really have nothing to worry about. If HDD's weren't meant to withstand a bit of heat then you would be hearing about a lot of unhappy customers. My hdd's are warm to the touch, but that is fine, they are well within the limits. Now if it burns your finger when you touch it, then you are probably going to be having problems with all the other components in your computer as well.

    Harddrives die. And they die often. If you haven't had one die in a long time, then you have been very lucky. I've had 3 drives die on me in the last 2 years. Granted 2 were IBM Deathstars, the third was a different brand. They weren't all that hot and they did not have any fans vibrating near them too much either. They just die, HDDs are not as reliable as many of us would like. (Can't wait for solid state hdd's :) )

    If you decide that everything I have just said is crap and want to take the paranoid way out, that's fine! You know what they say: Better safe than sorry!

    So here's what you should do:
    1. Get some grommets for that fan. They will reduce fan vibrations to practically nothing. They'll also make the fan quieter too! You can pick these up from PCMods: http://www.pcmods.com/details.asp?ProdID=20
    2. Get a HDD cooler. They will cool your hdd a lot more than a fan that's blowing air over it will. While I'm at the pcmods site, I might as well link there. If you shop around you will probably find better prices. Lower end cooling solution: http://www.pcmods.com/details.asp?ProdID=46 Higher end: http://www.pcmods.com/details.asp?ProdID=452 (Even has an LCD!)

    I just want to stress this again: You don't NEED these two products unless you have an ultra-fast SCSI hdd. Your hdd should be well within its limits with some small vibrations and a bit of heat. But if you want to spend some money, I'm not about to stop you!

    1. Re:Don't worry about either by Roadmaster · · Score: 1
      Some review sites have said you could throw a harddrive against a wall while it is running and it would be fine.
      .

      Well, they're dead wrong. I kicked a computer about 2 weeks ago while it was turned on. One of the hard disks failed, ended up with lots of bad sectors, plus it lost all the data we had on it. So no, they won't be fine, altough at least it wasn't rendered completely useless.
    2. Re:Don't worry about either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the case of IDE drives I've noticed that it actually generally takes quite a bit to cause them to fail. For instance, WD requires a diag code from their software before they are happy to accept an RMA, it just smoothes out the process. So not uncommon practice is when one encounters a bad drive that just keeps managing to make it through the diag, you smash the sucker against your desk in such a manner that the entire office hears a loud bang, then rerun the diag, you do however need to be careful that physical impact marks don't show.

      It usually takes several such wacks before you can cause damage substantial enough that the diag finally fails.

    3. Re:Don't worry about either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WHat the hell did u say?
      i think u just made up words and phrases, cause i have no idea what any of it means

    4. Re:Don't worry about either by twilightzero · · Score: 4, Informative

      *Insert standard disclaimer: I work for Western Digital tech support*

      Gee what's your name? I'll be sure to put a note in your case file in the WD call tracking system that you intentionally damage your drives and should never receive an RMA again ;) That point aside, an error code is NOT at all required to RMA a drive. Quite often we get people calling with drives that won't run diags at all, in which case it's ridiculous to require a code. We WILL encourage ppl to run diags if we think it may be a problem not with the drive itself. A classic scenario is someone receiving bad sector warnings from Scandisk. This definitely does not mean the drive has bad sectors, only that scandisk can't read the data at those points (most likely the result of corrupt data). Besides, you can always do an RMA through the web site, which doesn't require any type of code - there's a field for it but you can just leave it blank.

      Now on to the main topic, the problem you had here was definitely heat. Only an electronics failure would cause the drive to run in PIO instead of DMA like that - if it was a physical failure with the platters or somesuch caused by vibration, the drive would run at DMA but you'd get no data. Possibly the asic that controls data transfer got a bit fried and was no longer able to signal at top speed. Instead of quitting outright, the drives are all backward compatible all the way down to PIO1 and such and are programmed to drop their transfer speeds down if they encounter a problem at the higher speeds. So logically, (if...she...weighs the same as a duck...wait wrong explanation...) this particular one was probably a heat problem.

      Now, let me touch on a few more I saw floating around in this thread:

      1) No, do NOT throw a HD against the wall while running, your data will be gone faster than you can hear the clunk.

      2) It doesn't matter what orientation you have the drive mounted at, just so long as it's mounted SECURELY (read: 4 screws and to a metal enclosure that's grounded).

      3) Vibration is BADBADBAD for a drive. While it may not cause outright failure immediately, it will cause a huge number of misreads and retries on the drive, thereby slowing down the overall performance of the drive. This is one of the things that's driving the overall industry move to fluid dynamic bearings (FDB) - they cause much less vibration and therefore contribute to the logevity of the drive. And if the vibration is getting bad, it WILL cause the heads to touch the platters momentarily. Now the drives are designed with this in mind and have an extremely thin (several atoms) layer of lubrication on the platters. But don't encourage it if you value your data.

      Any other questions you want answered, drop me an email :)

      --

      "Christ what a design! I could eat a handful of iron filings and PUKE a better emergency pump than that!"
    5. Re:Don't worry about either by shepd · · Score: 1

      Might I suggest you buy an electronic fly swatter and test it against the drive's circuits next time?

      Shouldn't leave any marks, and should guarantee the drive won't be able to return any codes at all. :-)

      --
      If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
    6. Re:Don't worry about either by squeakygeek · · Score: 1

      (Can't wait for solid state hdd's :) )

      Then they wouldn't be called disk drives, now would they?

    7. Re:Don't worry about either by gottabeme · · Score: 1

      Thanks a lot for replying. As it so happens it is a WD drive, a WDC400BB-32CLB0. I don't suppose you are Ken? :) I talked to him on the phone on Thursday. He was very nice and helpful, although the only solution to the problem is of course a new drive.

      It's interesting that you mentioned that you thought the problem was caused by heat, but the thing is, I had a fan blowing directly across the drive (mounted at the front, blowing air evenly over the top and botton of the drive). When I put my finger on top of the drive, it felt cool, as if it was not even running. That's what lead me to ask this question, as I thought vibration would be less likely to cause an electronics failure as it appears I had, but vibration seems to have been the only thing that could affect the drive, as heat was just not there.

      The vibration was mild of course, but since the fan ran all the time, it was constant, so over a couple of years...it made me wonder.

      (I'll e-mail this to you also, since you suggested, to make sure you see this. Thanks again for replying.)

      --
      "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
    8. Re:Don't worry about either by GigsVT · · Score: 1

      Electronics fail. Sometimes for no reason.

      A sample of one is never ever enough to conclude anything statistical. Hard drive makers fully expect to get some percentage of drives back within a certain time frame. They just attempt to balance the cost of better electronic components against the cost of RMAs within warantee periods. Now, what the move to 1 year warantees implies about this balance, is left as an exercise for the reader.

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
    9. Re:Don't worry about either by KnightStalker · · Score: 1

      No kidding. I had a hard drive fall off the top of a computer once while it was running (carelessness). $4000 later, we got the data back on CD-ROM...

      --
      * And remember, it's spelled N-e-t-s-c-a-p-e, but it's pronounced "Mozilla."
    10. Re:Don't worry about either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great... Now could you tell me why WD800ABs make horrible thunking sounds and spin up/down at random?

      (Seriously! My best guess has been a fairly.. zealous.. undercurrent protection circuit, but I never had a chance to try a fatter supply, and the old Pentium it's in doesn't have any fancy voltage monitoring. Am I warm?)

    11. Re:Don't worry about either by StressedEd · · Score: 1
      ...and have an extremely thin (several atoms) layer of lubrication on the platters.

      Wow! I have always regarded hard drives as something of an engineering miracle. They always strike me as far more rugged than I would expect they could ever be! I guess this helps!

      --
      Be nice to people on the way up. You will meet them again on your way down!
    12. Re:Don't worry about either by zatz · · Score: 1

      A classic scenario is someone receiving bad sector warnings from Scandisk. This definitely does not mean the drive has bad sectors, only that scandisk can't read the data at those points (most likely the result of corrupt data).

      If scandisk can't read the data, that means that the drive didn't return any. The driver or BIOS (depending on where you run scandisk from) aren't going to make any judgments about whether to pass on what they get from the controller. It means that not only does the drive have bad sectors, but it couldn't even detect the problem while the errors were still correctable and transparently remap the sector.

      It's the job of the disk to keep the data from becoming "corrupt". There is nothing I can write from software which will cause scandisk to report new bad sectors.

      --

      Java: the COBOL of the new millenium.
    13. Re:Don't worry about either by dissy · · Score: 1

      Thats odd, windows/dos's included scandisk doesnt actually scan disks.. it scans filesystems on a partition of a disk.

      If you scandisk a linux or bsd partition for example, it will fail saying the sectors or even the whole disk is unreadable, which is true in the extent that scandisk scans FAT filesystems and is not finding what it expects.

    14. Re:Don't worry about either by zatz · · Score: 1

      Last time I used scandisk, the media test seemed to be a simple read test for each sector in a partition/slice. It does also do filesystem verification, of course, but that is a separate pass which can be turned on or off independently.

      I'm not even sure how you could instruct it to perform any tests on a non-FAT partition, as you instruct it where to work by giving it a drive letter. If there was a way, I suppose it might get confused and try to read from nonexistent sector addresses. But what kind of user would have a non-DOS partition and try to scan it with DOS tools, and then complain to the manufacturer when that failed? The comment to which I replied seemed to be saying this was a common occurrence!

      --

      Java: the COBOL of the new millenium.
    15. Re:Don't worry about either by twilightzero · · Score: 1

      *shrug* IANAFAE (I Am Not A Failure Analysis Engineer) (come to think of it - I'm not even an engineer!), all I can tell ya is what I see. I'm not sure why the data gets corrupt, but I see several a month where scandisk reports bad sectors, but if you back up the data and low level format it (read: write zeroes, I'm not going to go into an explanation of why you can't do a real low level format on an IDE drive) no errors are found and when the drive is repartitioned/formatted, scandisk is happy as a clam.

      As the post above this mentions, scandisk is a filesystem check utility, not a hardware diagnostic, so it's actually quite easy to fool into thinking that there's a problem with the device when there really isn't. On the other hand, the utilities from the HD company (us, Maxtor, whoever) are decidedly NOT filesystem checkers; even more, they're totally filesystem/data independent. They check only that the hardware of the device is functioning correctly, not that the data in any given place makes sense to any given system.

      --

      "Christ what a design! I could eat a handful of iron filings and PUKE a better emergency pump than that!"
    16. Re:Don't worry about either by EatHam · · Score: 1

      Electronics fail. Sometimes for no reason

      That's exactly why I started listing "Entropy" on my RMA forms.

    17. Re:Don't worry about either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Can't wait for solid state hdd's"

      Cough up the bucks, ya cheap bastad - I've been playing with solid state drives since 1995, and they are sweet (and pricy).

      Go look at www.bitmicro.com - they offer 155GB IDE drives in the 3.5 inch form factor. I believe that is the current capacity champ. There are other makers, too.

      Of course, that 155GB drive is $28,000, and doesn't provide any better performance than a simple IDE RAID!

      I use them with Fibre Channel, where it does make a difference. Of course, my HBA is $1300, too.

    18. Re:Don't worry about either by twilightzero · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you're on the right track. The drives do have pretty tight undercurrent protection, and will do exactly what you describe when not getting enough juice. I'f you're running anything under a 300 watt with more than 1 other drive in the system (and I'd doubt you're running anything over a 250 with the system you describe) then it's rather likely that's what's going on. Although to be sure I would suggest hooking it up to another computer and running some diags on it just to be safe. As I've said before, IANAFAE (I Am Not A Failure Analysis Engineer) :)

      --

      "Christ what a design! I could eat a handful of iron filings and PUKE a better emergency pump than that!"
    19. Re:Don't worry about either by twilightzero · · Score: 1

      Trust me, the more you know about them, the more you see it's a miracle they operate in the first place ;) Sometime I'll write an overview of how the heads and servo controller know where your data is on the drive - it's pretty insane and a hell of a lot of guesswork...

      --

      "Christ what a design! I could eat a handful of iron filings and PUKE a better emergency pump than that!"
    20. Re:Don't worry about either by zatz · · Score: 1

      Ahh, so what you are saying is that bad sectors can sometimes be *fixed* by overwriting them. Yes, this is true. Several years ago, I had a disk which was slowly going bad; I performed a sort of weekly preventive maintenance by remounting it read-only, reading and rewriting each sector on the disk via the /dev entry, and then mounting it read-write again. I had noticed that I was getting occasional read errors on rarely updated files, and this cured the problem for a while. However, the disk was still defective, and my userland hack was just a stopgap. Ultimately some areas became completely unusable, and I retired it when I could afford a replacement.

      If scandisk reports a few read errors (on a DOS partition, given the posts above), it's almost certainly a media problem. Sometimes trying to read the same bad sector several times will eventually yield correct data, especially on older drives. That doesn't mean it won't eventually degrade past the point where you can do that, or that the media will not develop the same problem in the future. The magnetic layer may still lose its polarization over time in that same spot, due to a subtle manufacturing flaw, or perhaps the track alignment will continue to drift until some areas develop read errors when not periodically refreshed.

      --

      Java: the COBOL of the new millenium.
    21. Re:Don't worry about either by plsander · · Score: 1

      They would revert to the old IBM name - Direct Access Storage Device (DASD).

    22. Re:Don't worry about either by xsbellx · · Score: 1

      Actually DASD were not solid state (3350's and 3380's sorry I cannot remember any other models). Typically, they came in one of two flavours, mountable and non-mountable (mountable meant you could change the media/diskpack). The non-mountable group was broken down into two sub-catagories. The first was fixed-head and the second mobile-head (sorry I cannot remember extacly what the IBMism was).

      The non-mountable devices were/are very similar to todays harddrives. A stack of magnetically coated platters accessed via electronic heads. The fixed-head group offered remarkable performance as there was NO armature required to move the head to the correct track. Instead the device was built with one head per track. This resulted in only rotational latency. Even as 3600RPM devices, they offered concurrent access that is only approached today by RAID configurations. One the down side, they were VERY pricey and most likely consumed the same energy as a clothes dryer.

      So this brings up the question, what would cost to produce a low-RPM, fixed-head harddrive for todays PC's? Given todays storage densities, it would seem the cost of the control mechanism required to correctly position the head must be a significant portion of the cost of the drive.

      --
      If VISTA is the answer, you didn't understand the question
    23. Re:Don't worry about either by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      (Can't wait for solid state hdd's :)

      One of the serious problems that solid state storage has is that the transistors which hold the data lose their capacity to store information after a few hundred thousand writes. So sorry, to date, hdd's are more reliable.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    24. Re:Don't worry about either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We had some drives that we had to bang hard edgewise against a table before they would work. They were 6 years old and the drive heads would definitely(that's the correct spelling-look it up) stick to the platter if they've been off for more than a day. We normally left the machines running, but, once in a while, we had to turn them off, either to vacuum out the 1/2 inch (1.27 cm) layer of dust inside or do some other maintenance. Invariably, they would not come back on if we've turned them off too long. Whenever the disk poduced errors, we turned off the computer yanked out the drives and banged them hard against the workbench and 99% of the time that got the drive going again. We eventually replaced 15 of the 120 drives, but the rest kept running after 6 years of use. Upper management finally got us money to replace the machines, now we don't have to do that anymore.

    25. Re:Don't worry about either by twilightzero · · Score: 1

      Yeah what you're describing is known as "stiction". Happens when the lubrication on the platters gets old and sometimes begins to break down. The heads will stick to the platters in the park position and prevent the motor from being able to spin. By knocking the drive, that frees the heads and the motor can turn again and raise the heads.

      --

      "Christ what a design! I could eat a handful of iron filings and PUKE a better emergency pump than that!"
    26. Re:Don't worry about either by The+Pim · · Score: 2, Informative
      but I see several a month where scandisk reports bad sectors, but if you back up the data and low level format it (read: write zeroes, I'm not going to go into an explanation of why you can't do a real low level format on an IDE drive) no errors are found and when the drive is repartitioned/formatted, scandisk is happy as a clam.

      What happens here is actually really simple. When the drive notices a dead or dying block, it can use one of its "reserved" blocks instead, and enter the substitution into a table somewhere. Except in one case: When asked to read from a dead block, it can't just return bogus data: it has to admit that there was an error. When asked to write to a dead block, on the other hand, it can do the remapping, write to the reserved block, and nobody will ever know the difference.

      It's rather counterintuitive until you think it through (or better yet, get a bad block and try it!). My intuition was that writing is "harder" on a flaky disk than reading, when in fact it's much easier for the disk to cope with a problem writing. Similarly, a problem reading is much less likely to signal a dying disk than a problem writing. A problem reading just means that there is one bad block somewhere on the disk; a problem writing probably means that all of the reserved blocks are used up (having been mapped to other bad blocks), so there's nowhere left to write.

      --

      The evaluation of an action as 'practical' . . . depends on what it is that one wishes to practice.
    27. Re:Don't worry about either by sxpert · · Score: 1

      So this brings up the question, what would cost to produce a low-RPM, fixed-head harddrive for todays PC's? Given todays storage densities, it would seem the cost of the control mechanism required to correctly position the head must be a significant portion of the cost of the drive.
      That sounds about right, considering the 10 EUR difference between a 60 and a 120 G drive in the same brand/series ;-)

    28. Re:Don't worry about either by harrylackapants · · Score: 1

      Hmmm... I think no one spoke about putting your cigarette lighter under your HDD while operating and see if it fails.

      My question to you would be: You wanna say that it will heat that much to cause damage under normal operating conditions? If yes, how come up to 7200 rpms drives I never saw one single drive which requires explicitly to have a cooler?!? My assumption is that if a HDD requires space around it too be cooler, it should say so in the manual. If it needs a cooler to stay inside nominal temperature interval it should state so in the manual or come with a cooler on it in the first place. Or at least deliver a crystal ball in the package so I can guess what the builder had in mind and what should I do to keep my drive alive.

      And I would be amused to see what a court of law would say about a company refusing a RMA based on overheat, as long as there is no clear requirement about installation of a drive in means of space or cooling.

    29. Re:Don't worry about either by Hanji · · Score: 1

      I think he's implying that he can't wait for some sort of solid state hdd that won't break down after a few hundred thousand rewrites.

      --
      A Minesweeper clone that doesn't suck
  17. Both are bad but not really. by atgrim · · Score: 1

    Turning the system on and off all the time is bad as well. Power surges for the device powering up and also shutting down. I had a Seagate 15K rpm Cheetah that recently took a dump. No special filtering, no real cooling scheme to speak off. It ran for 4 years almost to the day. Then during a load of windows, it said bye-bye. Found out the motor crapped out.

    IMHO, I don't think that the conditions drives are subjected to in everyday home computers will make that much of a difference. It would take continued extremem heat or continued extreme vibrations to really affect the drives perfomance or longevity. The vibrations from an 80 mm fan would not be enough to really be a determining factor. Might be ancillary but I don't think so.

    --
    Your actions in life will determine your children's future.
    1. Re:Both are bad but not really. by chunkwhite86 · · Score: 1, Informative

      Turning the system on and off all the time is bad as well.

      Well, your half right. IDE drives are designed for MANY power on/off cycles (as the typical home or office PC is turned on and off at least once a day) but not for continuous operation. SCSI drives on the other hand are designed for continuous operation, and NOT for many power on/off cycles.

      I had a Seagate 15K rpm Cheetah that recently took a dump. No special filtering, no real cooling scheme to speak off. It ran for 4 years almost to the day. Then during a load of windows, it said bye-bye. Found out the motor crapped out.

      I'm willing to bet it's because you turned your PC on and off each day, and you didn't have adequate cooling. The original 15k cheetahs were DAMN hot and without active cooling, they ran above the manufacturer's operating spec. Remember, SCSI drives are designed to be in Servers where noise is not an issue, and they expect to be cooled with fans! And before some AC jumps in with a "your full of crap!" post, I'm a data storage engineer for a large storage vendor so I know what I'm talking about.

      Your 15k cheetah BTW should have a 5 year warranty. Not sure if that was voided because you probably overheated it or exceded it's rated number of power on/off cycles.

      --
      I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
    2. Re:Both are bad but not really. by atgrim · · Score: 1

      Actually, my systems run 24/7. I do my best never to turn them off. Thanks for the info on the warranty. I will check seagates site. I thought 4 years was pretty darn good for a hard drive. Another question: Is running IDE drives 24/7 bad for them when, as you say, they are designed for multiple power on/off cycles?

      --
      Your actions in life will determine your children's future.
    3. Re:Both are bad but not really. by chunkwhite86 · · Score: 1

      Another question: Is running IDE drives 24/7 bad for them when, as you say, they are designed for multiple power on/off cycles?

      I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's bad for them, however the motor in most IDE drives is not as robust as the motor in most SCSI drives is. This is a significant portion of the additional cost of a SCSI drive (the more robust motor).

      In your specific case, the motor probably crapped out due to heat. Newer drives using the fluid bearings produce less heat (and noise) but the 4 year old cheetah's have standard ball bearings. I use the Lian-Li aluminum PC cases for all 3 of my home PC's (which BTW have a mix of 10k and 15k SCSI drives - no IDE for me) due to their dual cooling fans in front of the drive bays. Even when packed with 15k drives, these fans keep them cool to the touch. (I have no affiliation with Lian-Li other than being a pleased customer.)

      Heat really is a big enemy of 10k and 15k SCSI drives since they run so warm. Have a look at large enterprise storage solutions from HP, IBM, EMC, or Sun. They have dozens of very loud noisy fans blowing many many CFM of air over the drives. I used to work for Compaq/DEC and the drive carriers in their enterprise storage systems had been revised several times as faster drives became available over the years. The reason for the revisions was to provide a better cooling solution to cope with the increased heat of the faster spinning drives.

      Just my personal experience here with keeping drives cool: I currently have 12 drives (10k and 15k) that I keep powered on 24/7. I've had these running for a little over two years now, and not a single failure. I attribute this partly to the good cooling that they all receive.

      Good luck!

      --
      I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
    4. Re:Both are bad but not really. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0



      Wow that's very interesting you've had a 15k cheetah for 4 years considering they've only been available since the latter half of 2000.....

    5. Re:Both are bad but not really. by cdn-programmer · · Score: 1

      I don't know about on/off cycles because I never power machines down. Generally I try to use hich quality drives too.

      So, a pair of 350MB full height ESDI drives are still running. I got them 2nd hand out of a VAX in about 1991. I gave that system to my brother in about 1995. They are Maxtor's.

      Next I went into some 2GB Seagate Hawks 5400 rpm drives (cost about $1500 each - 5 year garantee) and some micropolis 5400 RPM drives. All are still running but they are now powered off. I'm using some old 3GB Seagate 5 1/4" 43400's. These are still fine. I think they have been more or less in continous service since about 1991 or so.

      They were purchased when the 43400's first came out.

      Well, the Seagate 410800N's were a disaster the first year they were out. I sold over 100 of them and every one died. I was going NUTZ on the rma's.

      Meanwhile personally I started using Fujitsu IDE's. None of my Fujitsu IDE drives has died.

      In the SCSI world we went to IBM's and Maxtor's and ended up pretty much dropping Seagate because they screwed the channel and we couldn't get them.

      We also handled Quantum but these were the high end SCSI drives.

      Of all of these drives, practically none failed. The Seagate 18 and 23 GB drivers were solid as a rock and to the best of my knowledge all made it through their warrenty period... If any had died we'd have been doing RMA's.

      The last drive I bought is an 80GB Seagate IDE. Its still has a 3 year warrentee but I do worry about the newer products.

      Since we were used to handling drives that cost up to about $5000 CDN my preference would have been for the manufactures to make a premium quality drive and bill us accordingly.

      There is so damn much havock when a drive dies that it would be better to pay an extra couple hundred bux.

      For instance - we charged for the RMA's just to cover the time we wasted. Imagine the disruption in the client's offices. I've seen client's almost in tears over dead drives back in the Seagate 410800N days.

      These were the failing 9GB drives. None of the work that was on those drives was ever backed up because it never made sense even though the drives had a high failure rate.

      It literally takes HOURS to back up to tape (say an exabyte) and DLT's weren't out back then. So even though the clients had literally dozen's of exabytes - when the drive died they reloaded the raw data and reprocessed, and sometimes lost their family life and holidays to do it.

      I know some will say "Why didn't they use Raid?" and the answer is that some did. When you see over 100 drives in a Raid set you get an idea of how much storage they needed.

      Well - Seagate solved the problem in the 9GB 410800N's and the reliablility on everything came up. I've seen very very few failures over the last few years.

  18. Re:Solution: Don't use front fans by Polo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's common knowledge that for hard drives, temperature and drive life are inversely proportional.

  19. Hammers. by stienman · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Definitely hammers.

    Aside from hammers, though, heat and vibration, taken together, cause serious problems.

    The systems I work on, however, have to deal more more heat than vibration. Badly made hard drive motors, such as those in late model Fujitsu hard drives, create ton of heat - you would burn yourself on them if they didn't have a fan.

    If your drives are below 60 degrees celsius (hot, but you won't get burned) then you really don't need to worry about heat.

    Vibration is not nearly an issue with today's computers as it was when items were socketted to printed circuit boards and connectors were manufactured to loose tolerances. Now everything is soldered, and if it isn't soldered it uses a tight connector that requires forces measured in kilograms to remove.

    Vibration is rarely an issue. Even in a hard drive where magnetic and air forces keep the head microns away from the platter, vibrations are still measured in G's - not fractions of G's. Prolonged constant vibrations can cause increased wear and tear, but not by a lot. In order to make an operating hard drive crash it's heads with the vibration of a fan, you'll have to attach it to the equipment tie down point of an industrial cement kiln fan, and attach a 50lb weight to one of the blades at the edge. Even then, I'd bet on the heads not crashing before the fan bearings break. You're piddly little fan is no match for my flying head air bearing technology!

    So, in short, take care of the heat first, but only if it's very hot. Don't worry about warm. If your fan is vibrating then it needs to be cleaned. If you've cleaned it and it is still vibrating, get a new fan - they aren't expensive.

    If you're playing the cost tradeoff game then you're playing it wrong. When the question is "What's cheaper: a new vibration free fan, or replacing my hard drive every other year..." the answer is always the new vibration free fan.

    Lastly, expect new hard drives to last exactly the length of their warranty, regardless of how you treat them. The profit margin for hard drives today is so thin that it's not worth making one that will last longer than the warranty.

    -Adam

    1. Re:Hammers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but if you drop your HD from about 4 feet above onto a concrete floor, odds are good that the drive is TOAST, even if the heads are "parked" and it is well not on.

    2. Re:Hammers. by danielrose · · Score: 1

      Now everything is soldered, and if it isn't soldered it uses a tight connector that requires forces measured in kilograms to remove.

      But force isn't measured in kilograms, it's measured in newtons!

      --
      i hate pansy republicans
    3. Re:Hammers. by Tackhead · · Score: 1
      > In order to make an operating hard drive crash it's heads with the vibration of a fan, you'll have to attach it to the equipment tie down point of an industrial cement kiln fan, and attach a 50lb weight to one of the blades at the edge.

      Attention case modders: I believe we have a challenge. *g*

  20. Re:Solution: Don't use front fans by Skapare · · Score: 1

    My drives are cooled by 3 small (40mm) fans right in front of the drive itself. It's a mounting bracket for 3.5 inch (88.9 mm) drives to fit in 5.25 inch (133.35 mm) drive bay and includes the fans in the bracket assembly. The temperature drop on these is enormous, going from "can't touch for more than 2 seconds" to "can hardly tell if they are on". It's more like a drop from 70 degrees (158 F) to 20 degrees (68 F). Fortunately the vibration is quite small (can only hear it, not feel it) and I haven't had a drive die in these assemblies, yet (9 drives total across 5 machines going 3 years now).

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  21. Re:Solution: Don't use front fans by shepd · · Score: 1

    >It's common knowledge that for hard drives, temperature and drive life are inversely proportional.

    On a logarithmic scale, I certainly hope. Otherwise, why did the 10 year old Full Height SCSI server drive I dug out of the old parts bin at my college work, considering parts of it outputted enough heat to burn me?

    --
    If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
  22. Sounds like someone forgot to oil their fan... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All those cheap 3rd-world manufactured fans need oil. Most only have enough in them to last a few months, if you're lucky.

    Buy some light machine oil (not WD40 or other degreaser) and apply it in the oilwell underneath the sticker on the reverse of the fan.

    Problem solved. Money saved. I have fans 5 years old that, when properly oiled, are totally silent.

  23. Question: Hard Drives used in car Mp3 Players by jhayworth · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I've seen here where people have mounted desktop hard drives on their side to avoid the read/write heads from banging against the drive platter.

    Laptop Hard Drives?

    What kind of a hard drive configuration would you use in automobiles?

    Just curious,

    -- Joshua

    --

    Linux is only free if you consider your time worthless

    1. Re:Question: Hard Drives used in car Mp3 Players by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been using a 60 GB 5400 RPM desktop hard drive (Maxtor IIRC) as an in-dash MP3 player in my car for a year and a half now. It's been subjected to extreme heat and cold, and normal road vibration (I spin it down if I'll be driving off pavement) with no complaints thus far. I figured I'd use it until it encountered problems, then switch to a more shock-resistant laptop drive, but... no problems yet. I'm surprised. I pull it out and run Scandisk on it every couple of months, but no errors thus far.

      (knocks on wood) :)

      Cheers
      Kev

  24. Re:Solution: Don't use front fans by Tuxinatorium · · Score: 1

    Well, in my Antec SLK3700 case, there's constantly a 5mph breeze blowing past the hard drives, with just one 120mm back fan plus the power supply and some good vents in front. If your case doesn't get enough ventilation because the vents aren't big enough, make them bigger :). No reason to add to the noise with a front fan.

  25. Re:Solution: Don't use front fans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Imperial system should be abolished because it's so damn inefficient to work with. But that's another rant for another day.

    It's bad form to assert something and run away. Not that I necessarily disagree with you, it just doesn't exactly flag you as an intelligent and well-thinking individual.

  26. Try SpinRite by mbstone · · Score: 1

    Don't forget to run SpinRite on the drive (after replacing or otherwise dealing with the fan), you might get a few more years or sectors out of tha sucka. [SpinRite, as you probably know, can magically transform bad sectors into good ones.]

    1. Re:Try SpinRite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SpinRite doesn't work on modern drives that handle remapping on their own.

      It's just overblown scandisk, unfortunately.

  27. Re:Solution: Don't use front fans by duffbeer703 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Give me a break. The metric system is a system of measures designed by committee.

    Celsius temperatures are just a hack to make it easier for people to switch from the standard systems.

    If you are going to be a measurement elitist, go all the way and add 273.16 to all celsius measurements.

    PS For those who can't grasp the obvious, yes, I'm talking Kelvin here.

    --
    Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
  28. Re:Dear Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    4> ....
    5> Profit!

  29. Re:Solution: Don't use front fans by ogre2112 · · Score: 1

    Holy shit! An Anonymous Coward with a valid point!

    (Bow) (Bow )We're not worthy! We're not worthy!

  30. Re:Solution: Don't use front fans by PurpleBob · · Score: 1

    Shall I point out that the SI (what is most frequently meant by "metric") uses Kelvin and not Celsius?

    --
    Win dain a lotica, en vai tu ri silota
  31. SpinRite Only Does FAT(32) by gottabeme · · Score: 2, Informative

    Great, if you use FAT or FAT32. If you use NTFS, Linux FS's, etc, SpinRite won't work. You'd have to move all your data off the drive or partition in order to use SpinRite. $90 for a program that won't do anything but FAT seems a bit much nowadays.

    --
    "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
  32. Rubber bands are the solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    When I finished copying and put the new drive in the cage where the old one was, I realized that the fan at the front of the cage which was keeping the drive cool to the touch was causing a fair amount of vibration to be transferred to the hard drive.
    I keep my very, very hot Seagate 7200rpm 80gb hard drive cool with a huge ex-PSU fan. It vibrates like heck. So I suspended it under my hard drive with 4 rubber bands and twine: the rubber bands stop any vibrations from reaching the case and therefore damaging the hdd.

    Just make sure the fan isn't hitting the IDE cable, and change rubber bands every so often when they start to fall apart.
  33. Personal Experience by JWSmythe · · Score: 3, Informative

    Well, here's what I've learned from personal experience. I've bought no less than say 300 drives over the last few years, for servers and workstations.

    We'll start with what lives longest.. Machines that we have in our colo's, kept under 75 degrees F, and they are very rarely moved. Some of the machines don't have physical interaction for over a year at a time. These live virtually forever.. We've had less than 1% failure rate over 5 years. We've retired more, simply because they're no longer big enough for our purposes, rather than because they've failed.

    We recently shipped 20 of those old drives from New York to Los Angeles, via FedEx. They were all working at the time they were shut off, and packed in a shipping crate. I've only tested 4 so far. 2 were completely dead.. One wouldn't spin up. The other spun, but "knock"ed, and was completely worthless. The other two worked fine. So, the physical abuse of just being shipped was enough to kill them.

    Now, consider the drives that haven't been in nice colo conditions. Some have been in offices where the staff seems to think 80 degrees is cold. At 80 degrees F, we have something like a 25% failure rate over 1 year. 25% of the machines will have a drive failure in a year. I can only name off two machines in that environment that haven't had a drive failure in 5 years, one of them being an extraordernarly cooled case (6 case fans, plus 2 small fans on each drive).

    In one environment, the staff insisted on keeping the temp at 90 F.. This was mostly because they knew the machines would fail at about 90 F, and they didn't have to work if their workstations crashed. Funny, that business went bankrupt.. Besides over a 30% drive failure rate, they also managed to cook the rest of the parts rather randomly. Motherboards would simply stop working, power supplies would get toasted, and CPU's with good CPU fans would just drop dead.

    In a computer store I worked in, when Quantum had first released their "BigFoot" drive series (5.25" wide, and maybe .5" thick), they were shipped to us as OEM parts in large boxes. There was formed sponge foam around them to keep them seperated. The shipping department would receive them, and pull them out two at a time. If we heard them "clack" into each other (it's a distinctive sound), we could pretty much guarantee the drives were both dead. Poor Quantum, they got so many RMA's from that store on those. I think we only had a 50% survival rate. They were nice drives though, in the fact that you could stack 4 of them in two 5.25" bays.

    There are always the rare exceptions that are always quoted as fact. One guy would tell everyone about how he has a machine with a SCSI drive running for 10 years, with no fans at all.. Ok, but it's not very good statistical sampling. A sample group of one doesn't show much.. Over hundreds, we get a better picture.

    So, yes, keep your drives cool.. If you don't, it will have a shorter life span.

    Don't shake your drives.. Hard impacts (less than 2" drop is enough) can destroy it, either damaging the controller board, or bumping the heads into the platters. The space is rather small (see the discussions a few months ago about removing the tops of hard drives. Smaller than a piece of dust). Constant vibration can have the same effect as a good impact. Harmonics can be evil.. Just ask any aircraft engineer.

    --
    Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    1. Re:Personal Experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Both are bad for hard driver,i work for large storage company.We cook our drives at 50c for about three weeks in env chambers that ramp temp and volatge and vibrate the drives.New drives over 5400 rpm now have anti shock system to help heads from head crash.Heads are flotaing less then with of human hair over the drive plater.Also i seen not one mention of drive cpu contoler on the drive itself. This part dies about 50 persent of the time before drive will make the dreaded clunking nosie.Most drive failures are from the silocon grease in drives going bad from dust over time.This what called a sticky drive and will spin up with small tap of screw driver when cold.

    2. Re:Personal Experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You didn't have to knock two Quantum Bigfoot drives together to make them fail... They were more than happy to fail all on their own.

      We had about a 75% failure rate on those drives over a two year lifetime. If they had a 50% DOA rate prior to my seeing them, then I'll bet Quantum lost money on those drives.

    3. Re:Personal Experience by JWSmythe · · Score: 1


      That's probably why they stopped making them.. From what I heard, the big platters were a bad thing.. They were so wide and thin, they could bump into each other pretty easily.. A little harmonic vibration, or physical bumping was hard on them.. But, they looked good. :)

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    4. Re:Personal Experience by Skater · · Score: 1

      Those Bigfoots had a pretty bad reputation all around. I think I have the last known working Bigfoot drive, a 4 gig model. I just retired it a couple weeks ago, but only because I needed more disk space in that computer.

      (I remember reading a computer column where the author said something along the lines that every time she had any computer problem, everyone always attributed it to the Bigfoot drive, no matter what the problem was!)

      --RJ

  34. WD the best, but unavailible. by braddeicide · · Score: 1

    Ahh, good old western digital, if only we could still get them in Australia. I've been trying my best, but so far i've ordered them three times from three different companies and each one has lost/stuffed the order :( i've been trying since before christmas.

    found out today that my adsl company has no record of my order either :\

    I'd definatly like to see an online western digital shop.

    1. Re:WD the best, but unavailible. by twilightzero · · Score: 1

      Well I don't have TOO much info to that end, but what I was able to get from one of our people in sales that the distributors in Australia are Westan, Acheive, and esystems or you can view the list here. Sorry the info's a bit sparse, this really isn't my area :P

      --

      "Christ what a design! I could eat a handful of iron filings and PUKE a better emergency pump than that!"
    2. Re:WD the best, but unavailible. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i work at electron flow in ormond, melb, we order wd's from westan, we only have trouble getting older models i.e 400bb but we can still get the other wd's /shameless plug
      our ph is (03) 95767877
      if u still have no luck finding drives gimme a call, my names anthony

  35. Re:Solution: Don't use front fans by Skapare · · Score: 1

    The problem is the cases are too small and don't even have a place to put a fan in the back. And even then, there would be the problem that there are too many holes in the front which are not in front of the drives.

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  36. Vibration is worse but... the most enjoyable... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You haven't seen vibration problems until you've tried to make a PC that bolts into a "hum-vee"! Damn those Hummers have a lot of vibration! Ofcourse they are more fun than your average car too.

  37. Re:Solution: Don't use front fans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, you shall.

  38. Re:Solution: Don't use front fans by InadequateCamel · · Score: 1

    I think his point is that most of the world does not use Imperial measurements, and the scientific community definitely does not (with some exceptions, of course), so why is it still around?

    The Celcius scale is more straightforward than the Farenheit scale, while the Kelvin scale is more tedious to work with. If you need a really stable scale that won't change appreciably in different environments then Kelvin is the scale of choice.

    Hence, for accurate measurements & calculations we use Kelvin but for everyday work, ie. "reflux solution at 120degC", we use Celcius. Another reason no one in science uses pounds/ounces or feet/yards because it is easier to work with units that follow a base 10 system.

    And what is the problem with having a system of measures designed by committee? That doesn't mean that there isn't good reasoning behind most of the choices!

  39. One Vote for Vibration by ReidMaynard · · Score: 1

    Once, years ago, I was lazy and only mounted a hard drive with one screw. It vibrated like crazy, and died after about 9 months. Thank goodness for those 5 year warentees :-P.

    --
    -- www.globaltics.net

    Political discussion for a new world

  40. Re:Solution: Don't use front fans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Offtopic (and nitpicky, thus AC), but it's 273.15.

    273.16 K is the triple point of water (0.01 C).

  41. Re:Solution: Don't use front fans by nobody69 · · Score: 1

    Give me a break. The metric system is a system of measures designed by committee.

    Much like a blind pig sometimes finding an acorn, sometimes committees get things right. Or do you think that making an inch dependent on the size of 3 seeds (why 3? why not 1, 2, or 5?) and making a foot 12 of those (why not 10? why not 14?) and a mile based on 52xx of those is the only logical why to do it? The metric system's advantage is that it is based on easily remembered numbers (water freezes at 0, boils at 100), and on powers of 10. The only reason it seems hard is that we aren't taught it when we are kids, so we try to translate it as we go.

    --
    "Bugger this, I want a better world." - Jenny Sparks
  42. Re:Solution: Don't use front fans by Tuxinatorium · · Score: 1

    Yeah, that's what I hate about the imperial system: too many superfluous and pointless units, all having different conversions to the next larger unit. It's a lot more complicated and less efficient to work with than metric. Ex: ton = 2200lbs, lb=16oz, oz=42grains? Volume-- hogshead = 55 gal gal=4qt=8pt=16cup cup=16fl.oz fl.oz=4?Tbsp Tbsp=3tsp and I can't even remember how the hell you convert cubic inches to fluid ounces, if there is even an integer conversion, which I doubt. There's no systematic approach to it. All the units and conversions are arbitrary and trivial.

  43. Vibration kills quickly. Heat kills over time. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The read/write heads on your hard drive float just above the spinning platter. A strand of hair would completely jam the head-platter gap. That said, a vibration (or shock) could send the head slamming into the rotating platter, causing damage to both. If your case is warm, the drive could fail, but after a much longer period of time (I'm talking warm here, not burning hot). The faster the drive the hotter it becomes, I've heard that heat output from a drive approx. quadruples for every 2x increase in rotational speed.

  44. Re:Solution: Don't use front fans by duffbeer703 · · Score: 1

    The customary system has much more convenient units than the metric system...

    The rigidity of the metric system leads to absurd units... a cup is like 253 mL, 1/3 of a liter is 333 mL, etc...

    The units may seem trivial, but really make intuitive sense. a foot is roughly the length of a man's forearm. customary units are designed to be divided or cut into fractional parts. people think in terms of "one-half" or "two-thirds" not .33 or .4

    --
    Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
  45. Re:Solution: Don't use front fans by Tuxinatorium · · Score: 1

    The customary system has much more convenient units than the metric system... The rigidity of the metric system leads to absurd units... a cup is like 253 mL, 1/3 of a liter is 333 mL, etc... The units may seem trivial, but really make intuitive sense. a foot is roughly the length of a man's forearm. customary units are designed to be divided or cut into fractional parts. people think in terms of "one-half" or "two-thirds" not .33 or .4 I don't think many people are dumb enough to have trouble converting fractions to decimal, i.e., 1/3 L = 0.333L = 333mL. And the coversino from cups to mL is irrelevant because all conversions between different systems of measurement come up with weird numbers like that and if we were all using metric it wouldn't matter anyway. Try converting a cubic yard into gallons in the conventional system... it's a pain in the ass. There are no easy to remember equivalents for converting from cubic distance units to volume units in that system. But in metric it's extremely easy because 1ml = 1cm^3 and all the unit conversions are base-10 (so you don't have to memorize a whole lot of bizarre and unsystematic ones like 1 mile = 352 rods, 1 rod = 3 yard = 9 feet = 108 in

  46. Are you smoking the crack? by BillX · · Score: 1

    There is no 'inert gas' inside a HDD that can leak in or out. Essentially all consumer HDDs operate in normal air at normal atmospheric pressure. (The HDD even has a breather that allows in filtered air from the outside, so that the drive can equalize with the external pressure. Manufacturers vary, but the filtering typically comes from a paper filter and/or a "maze" (like the lines at Disney World) that impedes the flow of dust and particles into the drive.) The motion of the heads combined with the Winchester effect tend to sweep any particles that do get into the drive toward the outside edge of the platter.

    --
    Caveat Emptor is not a business model.
  47. My experience by Punk+Walrus · · Score: 1
    I have hard drives go bad for only one reason: shock. I work with hundreds of rack mounted systems, many which overheat, and I get RAM and circuitboard problems a lot because of it... but I have only lost a hard drive due to physical vibration or shock, and we're talking hundreds of them.

    I just lost an almost-new 60GB Deskstar because the power screwdriver I used to mount it slipped, and spun into the drive with a hard smack (one of those 1 in million chances). Six bad sectors. Hard drive utilities identify it as physical damage. I have also dropped a drive here and then in my years, and while most of them worked fine afterwards, the only ones that didn't were attributed to a recent jolt right after it was proven to work fine. Even the old MFM drives.

  48. Heatsink by phorm · · Score: 1

    Which makes me wonder, why not install heatsinks on hard drives? They shouldn't be getting *really* hot to begin with, and being that many old CPU's only needed a heatsink, a hard-drive should be happy with that.
    With an angled heatsink, you get dissipation without vibration - enough that the internal circulation of the case should be able to take care of the rest.

  49. Re:Solution: Don't use front fans by yuri+benjamin · · Score: 1

    I'm glad Tuxinatorium used metric and celcius measurements, because they're all I know. I don't see why I should learn a measurement system that's only used in UK & USA just so I can participate in /. discussions. I don't know why duffbeer703 thinks it elitist to use measurements that most of the world understands. Maybe duffbeer703 was trolling.

    --
    You make the mistake of thinking you can educate the fundamental stupidity out of people. You can't.
  50. Superstitions by dpbsmith · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Drives fail because the interactions of the marketplace and the technology seem to have equilibrated on drives that are cheap and unreliable. The failures occur for a variety of reasons. Some are known to the manufacturer but won't be disclosed to you. Some are _discovered_ by the manufacturer (bad batches of parts) and _certainly_ won't be disclosed to you until so many fail that it becomes a public scandal.

    From the end-user's point of view, it's all random and there's not much that can be done about it.

    You can't convince me that a well-engineered drive has such a thin margin of safety that it will have a long life at 70 degrees and fail frequently at 80 degrees. (If temperature is that much MORE critical for drives than for other components, then why don't PC's have better cooling systems and overtemperature warnings? And why are they designed to let drives be mounted in close proximity to each other?)

    You can't convince me that a drive that is doing so many seeks that it is making fizzing, buzzing head-seeking noises most of the day, creating its OWN vibrations) is going to drop dead because the fan next to it isn't vibration-free.

    Because the mind abhors a knowledge vacuum, we all create our own superstitions about drive life. OUR drives won't fail because WE (pick one) a) keep our systems powered 24 hours a day to prevent power-on stress, b) religiously turn off our systems when not in use to keep down operating hours, c) open the case and vacuum out dust and clean air filters every 60 days, d) NEVER open the case because it's human handling that does the mischief, etc. etc.

    Don't blame the victim. Drives just fail and it's not your fault.

    1. Re:Superstitions by brewmaster64 · · Score: 1

      It's probably superstition on my part as well, but I've felt that drives get "used to" a certain opertating mode, i.e. they are religiously powered down when not in use or they are operating continiously, etc. Like the bearings wear in a certain way or something. Then the normal mode changes, and boom, you start getting errors.

      Then you can be like me, and have your one year old daughter turning your system on and off, and on and off. That didn't help my 4 year old IBM Deathstar drive which just died.

      --
      Brewmaster64
  51. Re:Solution: Don't use front fans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Real men use cubits, stone, talent, score, ....

  52. Re:Solution: Don't use front fans by sxpert · · Score: 1

    The rigidity of the metric system leads to absurd units... a cup is like 253 mL, 1/3 of a liter is 333 mL, etc...
    and the use of both systems at the same time yields to planetary probes losses and all (zillions USD worth)

  53. Re:Solution: Don't use front fans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Another reason no one in science uses pounds/ounces or feet/yards because it is easier to work with units that follow a base 10 system.

    At least, easier for humans. Computers prefer base-2 oriented units.

  54. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  55. Re:Solution: Don't use front fans by lommer · · Score: 1

    The thing is, it's extremely easy to convert from celcius to kelvin and back (just add/subtract ~273 degrees) because the units are the same order of magnitude. Thus, it is perfectly acceptable to define both scales as standards. To conver from Celcius to Farenheight however not only involves addition and subtraction, but also converting the magnitude of the unit (1 deg. F != 1 deg. C).

    As for all the other units, using imperial is just a boneheaded and stubborn refusal to accept a more universal and practical system.

  56. Hah hah! by chaobell · · Score: 1

    Inert gas leakage! I'll have to remember that one. Ranks right up there with the Magic Smoke and Sand-Fleas-In-The-Network-Cable stories!

    ...you were just being facetious, weren't you?

    --
    This is a Chao. A Chao says "Mu."
  57. Re:Heat or Vibration? Neither! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They also avoid that speed problem people seem to have.

  58. Apples. by Astrorunner · · Score: 1

    Oranges.

  59. I Guess... by Blueice88 · · Score: 0

    This two Things damage the hard drive.The HD is a very important part in a computer.And for who Could buy a Hard Drive Maxtor,and too buy a very good cooler, like the ADDA. Was the best thing to do.Best regards. Blueice88

  60. Re:Solution: Don't use front fans by drinkypoo · · Score: 1
    My hard drive (formerly hard drives) is mounted right behind a ~5" high-speed fan at the front of my 4U rack case. (I got it not so much because it was rackmount as because it was aluminum and quite large meaning no straining to get my large hands into tight spaces. Rackmount was just bonus.) However, the disk itself is in a removable cage which holds it sideways (both for space considerations and for airflow) and the cage has rubber isolation between it and the rest of the chassis.

    Keeping your drive at room temperature significantly extends its service life. This is why people make cases like this.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  61. Hard drives are a source of vibration? by Brian+Stretch · · Score: 1

    After replacing an IBM 60GXP series drive with a Seagate Barracuda V, besides eliminating the last high-pitch noise generator in the PC I noticed that the sides of the midtower case vibrated less, I assume due to the layer of sound dampening foam inside the drive package, with a major assist from the fluid (?) bearings. I guess the lesson is that things spinning at high RPMs need replacement or something to compensate for their speed?

  62. Re:Solution: Don't use front fans by marc_gerges · · Score: 1

    People used to the imperial system may think in two-thirds or four-fifths or similar fractions. People used to the metric system do have a similar feel for .4 or .6. A 'metric' cup or glass by the way is around .2 L.
    I always bake my noodle when somebody describes thickness as 41/64th inch, and it never occurs to me that this size would have thickness variations between 5/8 and 21/32.

  63. What happens when you heat a magnet and drop it? by Inhale · · Score: 1

    What happens when you heat a magnet and drop it? It loses it's magnetisim. What happens when you heat magnetic media and vibrate it? It degrades. Reduce both the heat and the vibration.