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A New Protocol For Faster Web Services?
Roland Piquepaille writes "Jonghun Park is an Assistant Professor of Information Sciences and Technology at Pennsylvania State University. He says that a new protocol can improve Web services. Sandeep Junnarkar broke the story. "Jonghun Park proposed a method for sharing information between systems linked on the Internet promises to speed collaborative applications by up to 10 times the current rates. The protocol is based on an algorithm that lets it use parallel instead of serial methods to process requests. Such a method boosts the efficiency of how resources are shared over the Internet. The new protocol is called Order-based Deadlock Prevention Protocol with Parallel Requests." Check this column for some excerpts or read the CNET News.com article for more details. More information about Jonghun Park's works can be found at his homepage."
... send it to me in parallel all you want, dude. My crappy 14.4k modem is still gonna gimme a crappy 14.4k.
Wasn't this reportedly the theory behind the Irish Young Scientists Xwebs project?
Wasn't that what ISDN was meant to do?
-Mark
Great INVENTION there Jonghun. Too bad it's already been done.
I could find nothing about it on that dude's homepage, and the article is terse to say the least. Where's some actual information about this?
Daniel
Carpe Diem
Putting the entire story in the slashdot posting is an interesting solution to the slashdot effect. Of course the content is a little more bland....
I'd prefer if the article we picked had some actual information about the protocol... off to google....
I wonder if this is the idea behind the "revolutionary" yet proprietary SymDesk protocols?
Sigs are out of style, so I'm not going to use one...oh wait..
It might lessen the effects of /.ing
So what he's saying is that secure and reliable systems are slowing down the web??
Ever seen an ISS server, dude? Not secure and not reliable! Oh yeah... that's why Internet Explorer/ISS combos as so fast. So I guess he's right after all... sorry for the misunderstanding.
"The new protocol is called Order-based Deadlock Prevention Protocol with Parallel Requests"
He should've spent more time on the name, no one will call it by it's full name, and think of the acronyms:
ODPPPR
OBDPPPR
OBDPPWPR
It's bad for the system when no one can talk about it.
GL
won't that make things more unsafe/unstable too?
because http is plain simple, it is easy to determine where resides what functionality.
if systems become more connected and integrated into each other, won't that make it much harder to determine what is going on on your system?
i can imagine that msft will have a go at running parts on your system on their registration servers. this seems to me like another step towards DRM.
i understand that this is just a protocol, but if people will start interconnecting systems, there will be (security issues)++
Int
Jonghun Park is an Assistant Professor of Information Sciences and Technology at Pennsylvania State University. He says that a new protocol can improve Web services. Sandeep Junnarkar broke the story. "Jonghun Park proposed a method for sharing information between systems linked on the Internet promises to speed collaborative applications by up to 10 times the current rates. The protocol is based on an algorithm that lets it use parallel instead of serial methods to process requests. Such a method boosts the efficiency of how resources are shared over the Internet. The new protocol is called Order-based Deadlock Prevention Protocol with Parallel Requests."
First, there is this whole climate fuelled by RIAA/MPAA that makes the very mention of collaborative applications something criminal.
Secondly, if there is to be a non p2p media sharing usage for this protocol, it has to get industry support. Read M$.
This looks like a solution looking to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Where have we seen this before?
any innovation (though i'm not sure this is) can be used for good and evil. besides, if a worm's going to max out your bandwidth they can do it without this awkwardly named protocol.
Anybody who's done real database engineering knows the two points necessary to prevent deadlocks: (of course, most designers/programmers don't do this...)
1. Every process locks resources in the same order.
2. No process ever escalates a lock.
Enforce these two adages ruthlessly and you'll never get a deadlock.
So all this guy is saying is "Engineer your distrubuted databases properly." Woot.
only 10x because at 11x it would crash.
and now our web browsers will be 6x faster (but not 7x....) yay!
will it really improve porn download?
does this have anything to do with the science fair guy who made a web browser that upped your speed by 6x? (at 7x it would crash, of course)
That's called pipelining, right? We already have this in various protocol, including HTTP which is used quite frequently for various web services (think SOAP)
ATM networks have a high speed channel and low speed channel (I believe). We are implementing a new protocal in our systems at work. Basically data that needs to be blocked is sent on one channel and realtime data that cannot be blocked is on the other. The channel can be easily told apart by indicating it in th header of the message. Note this is different than have more than one port.
Yes but every time I try to see it your way, I get a headache.
And you'll notice the technology is for "Web services" not as in web pages, as in colaberative data bases or applications over the internet. Its not meant as a web server. And this protocol does have some advantages, as in the prevention methods of deadlock (read the article)
Jesus saves, everyone else takes full damage from the fireball.
You down wit ODPPP?
Yeah you know me...
This article is useless. This quote is the only information that is remotely informative in the entire article.
And to get to my point, the management of resource access is hardly the job of the protocol. It is the job of the underlying web Service implementation to deal with these issues. Why should the protocol even have knowledge of the the resource state?
Order-based Deadlock Prevention Protocol
Or in short OD2P, wich can be read as Ode To P, where P can be Park, as in Jonghun Park.
And obviously he "will seek to commercialize". seems like is not veru bright... Why would the world change from a working protocol to another? Just to make the said Park rich? Oh, right...
This is cool and schmool, but where exactly are the collaborating applications that need to share and lock resources across Internet? Locking is useful only in preventing concurrent access to a critical nondivisible resource. Of course, web browsers share servers, but they don't need to lock them (well, sometimes they "lock" them, but this is only a side effect known as "slashdotting"). P2P apps? I don't think they need to lock anything in order to share files.
A-ha! Web services! Ok, what web services? Have you ever used a distributed web service application that needed to lock resources? I thought so.
I am not saying that this protocol is bogus, but it will probably be useful for apps that don't exist yet, at least on the Internet.
There appears to be a common misconception that the subject being discussed here is simple web hosting.
This is not the case.
Web _services_ are a set of programmatically-accessible services implemented on top of HTTP, using a protocol like XML-RPC or SOAP. These web services are being used in current Grid Computing prototypes, hence the references to "collaborative applications".
The eventual aim of Grid Computing is to provide a means to expose resources (such as computational clusters, network links, visualisation suites, data-collecting instruments, SAN clusters, etc.); then, when jobs get submitted, the Grid infrastructure should automagically allocate resources for the task, taking into account what resources the submitter is permitted access to, what resources the job requires, what other jobs are already scheduled and potentially even what the monetary cost of using each resource is.
See also here and here.
You mean IIS -- "Internet Information Server".
....
The devil is in the details
-kgj
Translation:
Or something....
:: "I am non-refutable." --Enik the Altrusian ::
To set priorities that limit development in certain areas serializes progress and has the potential of slowing ptogress by as much as 10 times that of parelelized service development.
--CTH
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
And he expects to make it a Internet standard, right? I guess he missed the classes about Internet history and policies. Yes, the part about openess and "everyone can do it".
OBDPPWPR://www.slashdot.org
... ;)
that's a little too crazy
First there's Disneyland Tokyo, and now the Koreans are opening their own living-and-breathing dinosaur refuge?
Ladies and Gentlemen of the web page readership, I submit to you this that is not a sentence. The second verb, "promises", is not directly connected to either the subject (Jonghun Park) nor either of the objects (information, applications).
Really. It's better than any server that only goes to 10!
If it's already been done then his peers would have rejected his publications. Just because it sounds like something you've heard of doesn't mean that it's an inferior technology.
So long, and thanks for all the Phish
I'm going to get broadband to speed up my net connection.
or even better, read his publications. While deadlocks are deadlocks, his research isn't about databases but concurrency. If there wasn't technical merit to his work his peers would reject his publications.
So long, and thanks for all the Phish
If I combine this with the thing that the clever Irish teenager invented, XWEBS, does it mean that I can surf 40 times faster?
...can this protocol get you onto the Wired without the need for a computer? Does it lock into the Schumann Resonance of Planet Earth? Have I watched too much Serial Experiments: Lain on TechTV recently?
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
Hasn't this been thought of before? Small-scale parallel processing sounds a lot like the queues in SEDA:
SEDA Homepage
More data, damnit!
May be the answer is to stay away from http.
:)
Web Services is basically describing the kind of services run over http. Excessive services result in http request saturation and thus people has to find some ways to circumvene the performance problems.
The reason why people nowaday mostly rely on http is the laziness of admins in handling corporate security. Services like RPC calls multiply the complexity of administration and it'd be easier if we all target the request on a single channel - http, which most enterprise has already opened it for normal web servers. Web Services beat CORBA in term of convenience in depolyment, not in term of its technical merit. (for more information, see this comparison)
The article and the links followed are insufficient to tell what's inside this research. If he could really find a solution to http saturation problem, that solution can absolutely be applied to everything else. I'm pretty skeptic on it.
Does this mean it will be closed source, proprietry and all that jazz? I hope not.
...oh wait, it crashes. Better limit it at 10x speed.
Very true, however, I propose the following pronunciation:
... plus it sounds cool.
ODPPPr => Od-Tri-P or Oddtripy
Yep its three syllables, thats even beets Tcp/IP.
**AA: a bunch of mindless jerks who'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes
Wait wait, OD-3P-R?? What is that, the long lost love child of R2-D2 and 3P-0??
Park said that he will seek to commercialize the next generation of his protocol that he has been fine-tuning over the past year.
Why? Didn't he look at HTTP at all? The reason it was so successful and widespread was because Tim Berners-Lee did not commericalize it. If Park makes this protocol commercial, it will either not be adopted at all, or it will be bought and proprietized by Microsoft. Neither of those are particularly desirable. If he keeps it open and free, it could eventually garner as much popularity as HTTP. Tis too bad he cares only for getting a check.
Lack of eloquence does not denote lack of intelligence, though they often coincide.
Isn't this already present and is called FTP? (FTP is notoriously ugly when dealing with firewalls).
-- Sig down
The speed increase will be offset by the length of time it takes to type the url.
x xx
Hypertext Transfer Protocol
http://xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
versus
Order-based Deadlock Prevention Protocol with Parallel Requests
obdppwpr://xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Remember that you are unique, just like everybody else.
Yay! - Even more bandwidth for advertisers to clog up with free drug adverts and cheap penis enlargers.
Most developers of enterprise systems don't need this. Traditionally, the bottleneck of data driven medium-to-big apps is the database; Connecting, connection pooling, reading, caching, whatever.
.NET has similar bottlenecks, but I don't know, haven't worked with it.
I'm working on a large web-services product/project now using various J2EE technologies (JRun, Castor, Object Relational Mapping, Axis) and my biggest bottlenecks are the database (problem mostly solved through caching, and clustered caching), XML Serialization/Deserialization or marshalling/unmarshalling (problem solved using Castor XML) of the object graph to and from the SOAP body and Java objects, and simply the passing of large object graphs through XML protocols like soap.
Go read the server-side.com, or Bitter Java, they'll tell you what the common bottlenecks are, and this usually isn't one of them.
I assume
--Stupidity is Self Curing!
Any web service which needs to conduct a database transaction will potentially need to lock resources. It may be that the application is structured so that a request is a single transaction, but more complicated application may require multiple interactions, thus a longer transaction and the need for locking.
For instance, take a web-services application that allows you to edit an, I don't know, address book entry. You retrieve the address book entry in one request, and store the edited values in another. Now, if another instance of the application on another machine comes along and retreives and stores the same address book entry between your request and your store, then when you store, the previous edits are lost. Hence the need for locking. This is obviously a simple, contrived example. Believe me, I've laid awake at night because of the difficulty of distributed transactions.
-c
"If you are an idealist it doesn't matter what you do or what goes on around you, because it isn't real anyway."-R.P.W.
HTTP was designed to be efficient for cases where a relatively simple request is going to result in a relatively large result dataset. Distributed services don't follow that pattern. You often have a relatively complex request (save changes to customer information) producing a simple result (changes saved/lost.)
HTTP also was also designed as a stateless protocol, and does not have the facilities to ensure any time or order based serialization of requests and results. (Yes it can be cobbled in via back-end stateful servers and session context data, but it isn't used by the HTTP server itself to serialize anything.)
Abusing a simple protocol in order to make life "easier" for the network configuration and administration team is just a bass-ackwards way of dealing with things. Networks are an infrastructure service for providing information systems to business, as are databases, file servers, application servers, programming services, etc. Nothing ever seems to end up "easy" except with a loss of functionality, efficiency, or scalability.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
- Next Generation Internet
- Large Scale Networking
- The Xanadu model
- Common HTTP Implementation Problems
- Web Services Architecture Requirements
- etc, etc, etc
HTTP is a very primitive protocol. I don't know when or if it will be overhauled or superseeded, but if it is, it needs more than this suggestion, much more, lot's of work, planning, forsight, architecture and engineering.If he's talking about sharing, as in, websites.. the HTTP protocol can already easily work in parallel.. so umm.
I am not saying that this protocol is bogus, but it will probably be useful for apps that don't exist yet, at least on the Internet.
And when they do exist, they'll use XA, a (relatively) open protocol developed by IBM, which has been proven over decades of distributed, heterogenous transaction processing (banks, airlines, telcos, etc). You can already mix CICS, Tuxedo, Oracle and DB/2 transactions with XA. (Note to Slashbots: it's OK if you haven't heard of CICS and Tuxedo). What do we need some newfangled nonsense for?
Great, so you can handle 10 simultaneous web requests. That might decrease the latency for a client, but it won't increase the performance of your server. Just the opposite, it will degrade it as the same number of client requests now generate 10 times as many connections. With each connection consuming threads and traffic, say bye-bye to your rock solid web server.
This is an example of research without grasp of reality.
Nah just use odpp://www.slashdot.org/
:P
h do t.org/
Why you guys try to make it so complicated
Why not just:
orderbaseddeadlockpreventionprotocol://www.slas
Since we don't know (apart from some journo's brief and possibly misinterpreted summary) what Mr Park has come up with, there's really no point in either praising or condemning it.
oh brave new world, that has such people in it!
They think they've invented threading?
visit my page at
odpppr://interesting.com/odpppr.html . Thank you.
odpp://www.slashdot.org/
or odpp://slashdot.org as it *should* be...
the point of the domain name is a pun which is negated by people putting www. before it.
sheesh!
-- johnmc.
I used to be a Penn State. IST does not do computer science, MIS, or engineering. They are in some nebulous area of "social/e-commerce area". Given that they have a new building to finance and few grants, they are probably hyping themselves up to get some attention.
well, there goes the /. effect. Under new protocols, small webpages can get linked by slashdot, and still run the next day.
Why do I need this protocol when I already bought a Pentium 4 processor to make the internet go faster? :)
"It's a tarp!" -- Dyslexic Admiral Ackbar
Sure its all fun and games until you relize that it would be a serious pain in the ass to type Order-based Deadlock Prevention Protocol with Parallel Requests." OBDLPPPR:// to get to /..org
5 more internet protocols until we develop LAIN! :P
I fear odpppr://www... will never catch on, surely they could have thought of a better less uguly name?
phonetic triping
Note to Slashbots: it's OK if you haven't heard of CICS and Tuxedo)
... but I think I'll leave that kind of thing to pathetic losers and Indian sweat-shop workers for the time being.
Tuxedo? If I need some legacy TM that doesn't seem to have been improved since 1987 ("Threads? Why do you want threads?" - BEA salesbot) to integrate into my COBOL billing system I'm sure I'll be interested
Thanks anyhow!
"Yo, Mike!"
"Yeah, Gabe?"
"We got a problem down on Earth. In Utah."
"I thought you fixed that last century!"
"No, no, not that. Someone's found a security problem in the physics
program. They're getting energy out of nowhere."
"Blessit! Lemme look... Hey, it's
there all right! OK, just a sec...
There, that ought to patch it. Dist it out, wouldja?"
-- Cold Fusion, 1989
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