P2P Services Speak Out Against Gnutella2

Since Napster is dead.... by Economist · 2003-03-02 04:37 · Score: 2, Insightful

... P2P is already divided in too many protocols and such.

Re:Since Napster is dead.... by Coke+in+a+Can · 2003-03-02 04:49 · Score: 2, Funny

"Since all we're interested in is legitimate non-pirated music and software, why n-"

Whoawhoawhoawhoa, who said we're not interested in piracy?
Re:Since Napster is dead.... by Goldberg's+Pants · 2003-03-02 05:02 · Score: 1

None of the three recognize Gnutella2 as true Gnutella

Jesus... GROW UP! Way to speak like politicians...
Re:Since Napster is dead.... by samhalliday · 2003-03-02 05:04 · Score: 3, Informative

Peer to peer search clients in general just suck.
I agree, anytime i search for anything these days, all gnutella comes up with are about 100 files out there all called exactly what i want, but containing some kind of advertisment in surprise. Yeah, i can block that persons IP and stuff... but, there is so much false stuff floating around out there now that its not even worth the effort.
I hear figures which say P2P and napster kill off the music indutry, but in my own personal experience, i have seen quite the opposite: pushed by hearing new music for the first time in a long while, my father bought the only cds he has bought since they came out last year, and many of his friends also. i have also been on ICQ and asked friends, on the other side of the world "you hear so-and-so yet?" yeah, search on napster... and within days they have ordered the CD (which may or may not be sold locally in their country.).
i dunno where all these figures have come from, nobody prefers to listen to music through crappy computer speakers, they buy CDs to go in decent stereo systems when it is good enough...
Re:Since Napster is dead.... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-03-02 06:30 · Score: 1, Insightful

Diversity is a GOOD thing in the climate of M/RIAA.

Expect a defacto standard...

MS p2p SDK
Re:Since Napster is dead.... by larry+bagina · 2003-03-02 06:40 · Score: 2, Funny

Since all we're interested in is legitimate non-pirated music and software
+5 funny. Or is it -1 Reality Distortion Field?

--
Do you even lift?
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Re:Since Napster is dead.... by macdaddy357 · 2003-03-02 11:31 · Score: 1

Gnutella has been as useless as the tits on a bull from the outset. People who are whining that you shouldn't "fix what ain't broke" don't get it that gnutella is badly broken. Gnutella2 can only be an improvement.

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How ya like dat?
Re:Since Napster is dead.... by petrus4 · 2003-03-02 19:20 · Score: 2, Interesting

Can someone please explain to me why unity is always considered mandatory??

I really don't understand what is supposed to drive genuine innovation if we demand that everyone (as much as possible, anywayz) is under one banner and doing the same thing. Why is having many different P2P protocols a bad thing? I always thought that this kind of diversity meant that, even if eventually there had to be only one, having large numbers initially would better facilitate the selection process.

Read Darwin, people. Genuine technological development does not come about from rigid unity, but rather just the opposite. You have as many different prototypes, re-interpretations, code forks, or versions of whatever it is you're developing as possible. That way the most suitable model/s for the task are identified over time. The relevant salvageable features of the less suitable models can be taken and added to the more suitable ones, and the less suitable ones eventually fall away by themselves...naturally.

This goes back to the entire Linux vs Windows question, where the thing people complain about is the idea of only having one system (Windows) where they can't make any of the decisions concerning the operating system for themselves.
To me it makes a lot more sense if you don't just have Windows OR Linux, but rather that you have Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, the Mac OS, AmigaDOS, and so on, and if they all have their attendant fan/developer base. That way each system has it's particular use or area of strengths, and work continues on developing others for other uses as well. It also means that the user is free to choose what he/she thinks is the best system for the task at hand. Things get done, people are happy, freedom is maintained, and the world keeps turning. ;-)

If you have a singular or monolithic model, this doesn't happen...instead we very often get saddled with frozen, unchanging dinosaurs. Is this really what we want?

I thought everyone used Kazaa by bushboy · 2003-03-02 04:40 · Score: 4, Interesting

I can't remember the last time I ever considered Gnutella as an operable and useful P2P application.

It was a mission to connect and even more of a problem to actually download useful content !

Unless you were a l33t bandwidth wh0r3, it remains to this day, a useless p2p application.

Kazaa on the other hand actually works !
On a low bandwidth pipe, you can still obtain large files, even if it takes you a week to do it.

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A slashdotting - you get the stick first and then the carrot !

Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by Cheesy+Fool · 2003-03-02 04:51 · Score: 1

Kazaa only works on Windows.

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Hail to the king, baby!
Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by 0x0d0a · 2003-03-02 04:58 · Score: 4, Informative

I can't remember the last time I ever considered Gnutella as an operable and useful P2P application.

Try gtk-gnutella out of CVS. Gnutella these days is a very, very different beast from what it once was (thanks to lots of work on the part of the GDF), and its performance is *far* better than it once was.

The reason Kazaa doesn't work for everyone is because it's the last remaining closed P2P protocol. Linux folks can't clone it (and it's extremely difficult to reverse engineer the authentication stuff) because of that, so Kazaa isn't available for Linux.

I've found that Napster for music, eDonkey for large files works pretty well.

I wish more people used oggs, though...

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May we never see th
Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by moonbender · 2003-03-02 05:02 · Score: 1

It really sucks for single MP3s. Albums, okay, but single songs, terrible.

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Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by Cheesy+Fool · 2003-03-02 05:04 · Score: 1

Did you even read the article?

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Hail to the king, baby!
Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by OverlordQ · 2003-03-02 05:08 · Score: 1

Dont use Kazza use Kazaa Lite, Kazaa sans-spyware.

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Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by elmegil · 2003-03-02 05:15 · Score: 2, Interesting

only if you count 5 billion copies of Britney as "many many times more".

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7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by Jsprat23 · 2003-03-02 05:16 · Score: 1

Hear, hear. GTK-gnutella is absolutely wonderful. I can get stuff faster than I can burn it. :-p
Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by freestyle-fiend · 2003-03-02 05:23 · Score: 1

Direct Connect has many times more content than Kazaa, but that doesn't mean that it's right for everyone. In much the same way, Gnutella might be more useful to some people despite having less content.

Personally though, I find that none of the protocols can be truely useful until it is possible to search them all at once (or if people all chose to you the same one). Where p2p really comes into its own is finding stuff that I can't get elsewhere (if I really want something that is in the shops, I can buy it). If I have to try OpenNap, Gnutella, Fast Track, Direct Connect, IRC, Usenet, etc. every time I want a rare recording, then I don't get very much.
Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by Shade,+The · 2003-03-02 05:35 · Score: 4, Informative

Um, I'd say his point is that Kazaa only works on Windows. If a person does not use Windows, then they can't use Kazaa, and therefore it's not a choice for some people. How difficult is this to understand? Therefore some people are doubtless interested in Gnutella. Especially since it's gotten quite a bit better, recently.

Gtk-gnutella works quite nicely, I've found. Downloaded all of Trigun and half of Hack Sign from there so far. I even managed to find some Maaya Sakamoto MP3s. Not that I downloaded them, for that would be illegal and bad. *Ahem*. Anyway, the only Anime I couldn't find reliably was Outlaw Star, so I grabbed that from IRC.
Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by peter_gzowski · 2003-03-02 06:03 · Score: 3, Informative

I've found that Napster for music, eDonkey for large files works pretty well.

I assume you mean KaZaA for music...

Just a few comments on your comment. KaZaA (Lite) works in Linux under Wine. The KaZaA Lite site even links to instructions on how to get it working. The fact that KaZaA is a closed protocol is not the reason it doesn't work for everyone. No one program is going to work for everyone. KaZaA works for most people I know, from the indie rock fans, to the hip-hop fans, to the jazz fans.

eDonkey is good for large files, albeit slow. I've been using BitTorrent for a lot of my large files (the latest buffy and anime fansubs) lately, although I don't know if this counts as P2P.

I took your advice and grabbed gtk-gnutella (there was a recent release, so I didn't see the need to get the CVS). I'll have to use it some more, but it seems like the same old beast to me. Will give it some more time, though.

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"Now gluttony and exploitation serves eight!" - TV's Frank
Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by Dylan+Zimmerman · 2003-03-02 06:38 · Score: 1

Actually, KaZaA lite still has the distributed computing project, the spyware, and any number of other nasty bits of code last time I heard. My understanding is that they just replaced one of the DLLs that was used mostly for advertising with a dummy DLL. That in no way reduces the amount of spyware in the KaZaA executable itself.
Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by NineNine · 2003-03-02 07:00 · Score: 1

P2P really needs to have a critical mass of users to be useful. That's why I say things like Gnutella are relatively useless. There's not a critical mass of users that makes it easy (or fast) enough to find what I want. Sure, Fast Track may have 5,000,000 copies of a Britney Spears recording, but I've also had great luck finding what I like. I've got a nice little collection of WW2 era big band singers going now. And, there are enough different kinds of FastTrack users now that it's not all one kind of music, either. I'm also steadily working on my 1980's music videos collection with Fast Track, and so far, I've been able to find everything that I've wanted.
Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by John+W.+Lindh · 2003-03-02 07:16 · Score: 1

Just a few comments on your comment. KaZaA (Lite) works in Linux under Wine.
People who seriously claim that have never used Kazaa under WINE. Gnutella may have its problems but Kazaa on WINE is just ugly.
Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by einer · 2003-03-02 08:26 · Score: 3, Informative

Um, I'd say his point is that Kazaa only works on Windows. If a person does not use Windows, then they can't use Kazaa, and therefore it's not a choice for some people. How difficult is this to understand?

Kazaa Lite runs under wine.
Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by esanbock · 2003-03-02 08:29 · Score: 1

But he's too l33t to install Windows! Actually this stupid fucker probably only runs Windows, but won't admit it on /. because he's too l33t.
Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by Microlith · 2003-03-02 11:00 · Score: 1

That's nice.

Now go buy Trigun, .hack, and Outlaw Star and COMPENSATE THE CREATORS.

Or are you just another damned leech?
Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by Arty · 2003-03-02 11:07 · Score: 1

The reason Kazaa doesn't work for everyone is because it's the last remaining closed P2P protocol.

There's one more left: WPNP (WinMX).
2.x has been disassembled, and a plugin for Lopster has been written.
But no one could use it more than a few weeks: Frontcode changed the WinMX auth routine in 3.x, which hasn't been disassembled until now.

There's even a sourceforge project (LinMX), which, of coure, hasn't released anything until now. Maybe some of the slashdot readers out there have the skills to help it out...

WinMX also doesn't run in WINE. For me personally, on the other hand, it doesn't matter, the OpenNap networks have far more TB out there than anything proprietary.
Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by evilviper · 2003-03-02 13:17 · Score: 1

I agree with you... I had been using other Gnutella clones for some time, and they quickly began to return less and less results, and far fewer downloads ever completed. I installed the CVS version of GTK-Gnutella and it Gnutella was rejuvenated. With all the bandwidth controls and compressed connections, I can keep the upstream bandwidth usage down without lossing any functionality. It also allows me to keep it on longer, since I don't need to exit just to give some more bandwidth to other apps.

Swarming et al do a good job of finishing more downloads, and speeding up the process most of the time as well. I'm a convert. I was astonished by the improvements that have happened since I last used it.

My only objection would be how it wastes so much screen space with borders and the like.

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Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by wasteve · 2003-03-02 15:19 · Score: 1

I don't have wine working at the moment but I had WinMX working in Wine about a month ago. It was fairly stable and I could leave it up for a couple of days before it crashed. I suspect that is just as good as what I'd get running it under windows.
Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by peter_gzowski · 2003-03-02 15:23 · Score: 1

I use KaZaA Lite under Wine, and it's not pretty, but it does the job. Gnutella has its problems AND it's ugly. Maybe it's just I don't like the GTK look of gtk-gnutella. Maybe if somebody made me a kde-gnutella...

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"Now gluttony and exploitation serves eight!" - TV's Frank
Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by Rares+Marian · 2003-03-02 17:46 · Score: 1

You mean Qt-tella and such is available i think.

Gtk = default dev lib for GNOME
Qt = default dev lib for KDE

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The message on the other side of this sig is false.
Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by Shade,+The · 2003-03-02 18:38 · Score: 1

How would you suggest I go about buying .hack? It isn't availiable yet outside Japan. Outlaw Star has been shown on Cartoon Network, and Trigun will be shown on Cartoon Network, since they now have the broadcasting rights. Since I'm subscribed to that channel, and will be for some time, I've already compensated the creators in question through my subscription fees.
Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by Shade,+The · 2003-03-02 18:47 · Score: 1

I have an version of Windows 98 on my machine, but I really can't see the point in using it. As hard as it might be for you to understand, some people actually prefer using Linux over Windows for more than idealogical reasons. I use Linux because I like it more than Windows. For me, Linux is better. In fact, whenever I boot back up into Windows, it always annoys me how limited the GUI actually is. Whilst I could use Kazaa, that would mean rebooting and languishing in Windows for several hours, which is a bigger hassle than I really want to go through.

Of course, I realise that from your tone you're either a troll or a moron, so I doubt this reply will make any difference to you either way.
Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by esanbock · 2003-03-02 19:56 · Score: 1

I was just trolling... don't take it personally.
Re:I thought everyone used Kazaa by Shade,+The · 2003-03-05 15:15 · Score: 1

You're not meant to admit it! :)

How does one "block" hostile clients? by McCart42 · 2003-03-02 04:41 · Score: 3, Interesting

I would think that it would be fairly trivial to get past any blocks of a certain P2P agent (with an upgrade of the software, that is)...is there some information about the protocol that makes each client unique, and constantly so; i.e., upgrades to the software cannot change this identifying bit of the protocol for the client?

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"I may be quite wrong." - Socrates

Re:How does one "block" hostile clients? by rampant+mac · 2003-03-02 04:43 · Score: 1

" How does one "block" hostile clients?"
Cock-blocking?
I see your P2P is as big as mine!

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I like big butts and I cannot lie.
Re:How does one "block" hostile clients? by 1nv4d3r · 2003-03-02 04:46 · Score: 4, Insightful

Any client can lie in the next upgrade, so a good option is usually to block based on behavior. In other words, no matter what client you claim to be, if you send me more than x requests/second for longer than y minutes, you're disconnected.

The other benefit of rules like this is that you don't discriminate one bad client; you discriminate against actions that hurt the network. As long as it plays nice any client is fine.
Re:How does one "block" hostile clients? by John+W.+Lindh · 2003-03-02 07:12 · Score: 1

There is NO possibility of reliably blocking hostile clients. You look out for a pattern in their user-agent, messages, anything - they can change it easily. You try to count the queries they are sending, - they simply drop connections often or even claim that some else originated a query and they are merely passing it on. This has been discussed often and lengthy but you simply cannot protect an open network against malicious clients.
Re:How does one "block" hostile clients? by Rares+Marian · 2003-03-02 17:48 · Score: 1

not perfectly, but yes you can protect the network. Crimes happen but we still hire more cops on the street.

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The message on the other side of this sig is false.
Re:How does one "block" hostile clients? by John+W.+Lindh · 2003-03-02 21:27 · Score: 1

There is no way you can detect some of those hostilities except by the increased overall query traffic. A node can not keep track of the number of connetion to the network another node keeps. That's simply impossible. You can say you won't allow more than X queries in N minuetes but a hostile client would simply disconnect after sending those X queries and you wouldn't know if it is really a hostile client or if the connection just failed...

This guy is a developer? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-03-02 04:41 · Score: 4, Informative

From the GDF:

"......You could have just left it alone...but unfortunately you decided to have yourself added to the...
[flames=on]
RETARD LIST! YOU F#$@ING IMBECILE! I DONT EVEN NEED TO ARGUE ON THE MERITS WITH YOU, BECAUSE YOU ARE THE **ONLY** JACKASS WHO OFFERRED TO IMPLEMENT G2 BEFORE THE SPECS WERE RELEASED! GUESS WHAT DUDE! YOUR CLIENT SUCKS A BIG FAT DONKEY'S DICK! NO WONDER MORPHEUS DUMPED IT LIKE THE STEAMING HALF COILED TURD THAT IT IS!
[flames=off]......."

This guy is a developer? That's pathetic, this looks like something a ten year old posted.

If you are wondering what client he is speaking of, he is talking about Gnucleus.

Re:This guy is a developer? by vadim_t · 2003-03-02 06:30 · Score: 1

I don't see why he can't be a developer.

I mean, it's not like the ability to write code somehow grants you any other skills, like social intelligence.
Re:This guy is a developer? by John+W.+Lindh · 2003-03-02 07:09 · Score: 1

It's nothing I haven't already seen among developers. It seems to be quite common on certain - ahem - open source devel mailing lists.
Re:This guy is a developer? by grumpygrodyguy · 2003-03-02 07:24 · Score: 3, Funny

This guy is a developer? That's pathetic, this looks like something a ten year old posted.

Maybe he's a ten year old developer.

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The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky
Re:This guy is a developer? by smd4985 · 2003-03-02 09:56 · Score: 1

I'm just shedding some light on the situation since I interact with the author of those posts. His actions may seem childish, but given the terrible form of the MP people I can't blame him from losing it. When you see your hard work stolen by a bunch of two-bit criminals (the Shareaza folks) - people you have TRIED to reach out to and compromise with, only to be lied to repeatedly - you can get a little hot under the collar.

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smd4985
Re:This guy is a developer? by Anenga · 2003-03-02 10:48 · Score: 2, Interesting

No, they are childish and unwarrented. There aren't any excuses for that behavior.

If the GDF would of acted mature in reaction to Gnutella2 when it was first proposed to the GDF, then this would of never of happened. Gnutella2 would of replaced Gnutella1 and remained "Gnutella". Or at least the GDF could of discussed G2 in a technical context, which did not happen.

No "hard work" was stolen. Shareaza did not use GUESS in any way to create G2, so I hope that's not what your implying. Sure, G2 uses some things discussed within the GDF. But anybody can suggest concepts, but it's not as easy when you go and try to code it in.

Look at GUESS. How long was that discussed? Now that's dropped for "Outdegree", something Gnutella2 came up with.

The GDF needs to let their death-grip of the Gnutella throne go and accept Mike as a legitimate contributer trying to help.
Re:This guy is a developer? by Visceral+Monkey · 2003-03-02 12:18 · Score: 2, Interesting

This guy acts like an ass all the time apparently. If you consider that he's trying to make money with his software you soon realize he's cheesed because this other guy came in and scooped him and the other sleeping beauties on several features. Where they came from really isn't important, they fact he did it in record time without co-towing to them is what set him off more than anything else. More power to those who innovate and actually get something done rather than talking about it forever. If the other guys can out innovate/feature this guy's client then I'd support them; it's all about the best working client. So slap a tampon between your legs, stop crying like a woman and get busy guys.

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*Fortitudo, aequitas, fidelitas.*
Re:This guy is a developer? by cpeterso · 2003-03-02 15:07 · Score: 1

hmm, sounds like an average day on the Linux Kernel list.. ;-)

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cpeterso

He said, she said by christurkel · 2003-03-02 04:45 · Score: 1

While there seems to genuine issues here, I get the impression that neither side is being entirely forthcoming on this situation.

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CDE open sourced! https://sourceforge.net/projects/cdesktopenv/

Re:He said, she said by christurkel · 2003-03-02 05:19 · Score: 1

I read 700 wpm. I can pretty fast, you might say.

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CDE open sourced! https://sourceforge.net/projects/cdesktopenv/

unfortunately... by rebelcool · 2003-03-02 04:48 · Score: 4, Interesting

kazaa cannot locate 90% of the rare music i look for.

If you want popular or semi-popular things, kazaa works well. For rare things, you might, if lucky, find one person somewhere who has it and it almost always returns 'Needs more sources'.

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Re:unfortunately... by crazyprogrammer · 2003-03-02 08:10 · Score: 1

For rare things, you might, if lucky, find one person somewhere who has it

I looked up rare on m-w.com, here's the thrid definition.
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rare
3 : seldom occurring or found
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If you are looking for a rare file, you will probably only find one or two people who have it regardless of what p2p software you use.

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"the fax machine is nothing but a waffle iron with a phone attached to it." - Grandpa Simpson
Re:unfortunately... by CainX · 2003-03-02 11:17 · Score: 1

There is a p2p app where you can find only good music. J5 will turn up more files than Nsync. However, it's a small community and we'd like to keep it that way. I'll just say if you care enough it's not impossible to find a music message board that will tell you what it is. I'd appreciate if no one posted it here.
Re:unfortunately... by CainX · 2003-03-02 13:31 · Score: 1

Very nice, I apologize for making the fatal error of assuming the world was devoid of assholes.
Re:unfortunately... by Grahf666 · 2003-03-03 10:26 · Score: 1

The issue at hand is the p2p network's ability to find the one or two people on the entire network that have the file you want (and as an added bonus, to find those people and their files even if they are offline, and to queue the download until they come online... eDonkey and its variants do this afaik). As I understand it, a GnutellaNet client requires progressively more bandwidth (a very expensive resource) to search a larger portion of the network. KaZaA, with it's more centralized design, can search the entire network easily with far less of a bandwidth cost (correct me if I'm wrong in some way on this differentiation). This searchability/bandwidth consumed ratio seems to be pretty important to the usefulness of a p2p client, and is one of the reasons why I think Gnutella kinda sucks.

Vinnie is a pathetic troll by Anonymous Coward · 2003-03-02 04:50 · Score: 5, Informative

Here's what happened today on the Gnutella Developers Forum

Vinnie says Shareaza is damaging the Gnutella network. Well, his own words are blackening the public's view of ALL Gnutella developers. He himself should be banned from Gnutella, period.

Consider this: most people do not visit the GDF group. So when Vinnie makes an ass out of himself, most people just see his words, and assume that he represents all the other Gnutella developers. People see Vinnie flaming, spewing insults left and right. What are people supposed to think?

Vinne, it\'s alright to make points such as "Shareaza is flooding the network with requests." But when you say things such as "YOU ARE A F#$@ING MORON YOU GODDAMNED SON OF A WHORE," you have gone way past the line.

"I've tried being civil"
If such behavior is what you define as civil...

"I suggest other developers "
Wait, Vinnie, you make it sound like you represent the WHOLE Gnutella community. However, this statement makes it sound like there hasn't been a complete agreement yet, and that this is more your own personal opinion. Has an official decision been made or not?

"YOUR CLIENT SUCKS A BIG FAT DONKEY'S DICK!"
So this is what Gnutella developers are like? Freely bashing other people's work and insulting them when all they have done is try to improve the network. I guess I'll make sure to avoid Gnutella developers at all costs, they sound nasty. Or maybe it's just Vinnie.

Last question: why have I not negatively responded to Adam Fisk? Because he has been civil. You have not.

Re:Vinnie is a pathetic troll by eyeye · 2003-03-02 08:59 · Score: 1

vinnie sounds like Richard Morrell! Although Morrell doesn't quite match this guys creativity.

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Bush and Blair ate my sig!

lost end-user focus by 1nv4d3r · 2003-03-02 04:52 · Score: 4, Funny

When did we lose focus on creating the greatest Porn2Pr0n system possible?

These guys should stop bickering and ask themselves every day:
- How can gnutella deliver more pr0n, faster, with more accurate search results?

I know I do, and I don't even develop P2P systems.

Re:lost end-user focus by Saeger · 2003-03-02 10:29 · Score: 1

Actually, the video clip the AC speaks of is the most disturbing thing I've seen to date, and I've seen a lot of very gruesome things over the years, so it's not easy to shock me.
Search for "unknown russian soldier" if you think you're desensitized enough to witness a soldier rasping for breath after getting his throat cut out then head cut off.
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Power to the Peaceful

I think that it's reasonable, though by 0x0d0a · 2003-03-02 04:54 · Score: 4, Insightful

For a protocol where the peers matter so much, Gnutella works surprisingly well. That's been because the developers worked together very much to keep things going properly and sharing improvements ahead of time to let everyone adapt.

Shareaza broke that.

It doesn't really *matter* as much as these people make it out to be, because almost nobody *uses* the damn client, but it's really stupid that they took the "Gnutella 2" name, which really is deserved by the coalition of developers that shared and worked together.

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May we never see th

Re:I think that it's reasonable, though by julesh · 2003-03-02 06:12 · Score: 1

For a protocol where the peers matter so much, Gnutella works surprisingly well. That's been because the developers worked together very much to keep things going properly and sharing improvements ahead of time to let everyone adapt.

Shareaza broke that.

That's because the kind of improvements Mike wanted to make couldn't be done with that kind of model. They're things that you just can't know about until you've tried them, and a public beta was probably the only way of making it work. Of course, maybe he should have prioritised the documentation of the protocol over the post-beta releases, but that's just one side of the argument. Others would say users are more important than the other developers.
Re:I think that it's reasonable, though by Istealmymusic · 2003-03-02 06:15 · Score: 1

Quick, someone register Gnutella7.com!

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"The lesson to be learned is not to take the comments on slashdot too literally." --Vinnie Falco, BearShare
Re:I think that it's reasonable, though by Wonko42 · 2003-03-02 07:18 · Score: 2, Insightful

Shareaza broke nothing. Have you used Shareaza? It has an excellent implementation of both Gnutella 0.6 (which every other client uses) and its own Gnutella2 protocol. You can use them both at the same time, meaning that you're a part of both networks. Nothing is being broken. Other Gnutella users get the benefit of your file collection (and vice versa), and other Shareaza users get the same benefit but without the scaling issues (and vice versa).
Of course it was a daft move for Mike to call it Gnutella2, but so what? The guy had written a damn good protocol based on Gnutella, and a rose, by any other name, is still a goddamn rose.
Re:I think that it's reasonable, though by John+W.+Lindh · 2003-03-02 07:20 · Score: 1

That's because the kind of improvements Mike wanted to make couldn't be done with that kind of model.
That's simply not true. Mike claimed that on the gnutella developer forum as well but he could not come up with a single feature that could not be implemented as well using the old protocol OR requiring only slight alterations to the existing model.
Others would say users are more important than the other developers.
If Mike were interested in the experience of his users he would go open source and collaborate with other developers to improve his software.
Re:I think that it's reasonable, though by Herr_Nightingale · 2003-03-02 10:13 · Score: 3, Insightful

Gnutella is broken, as anybody comparing FastTrack to (your choice of Gnutella servant here) can attest. It's slow, downloads have a completion rate that is barely usable, and even advances like swarmed downloads don't work very well. Here, try this.. Kazaa Lite is the clean version of Kazaa. Then try this. Limewire is relatively popular, and wholly commercial.
You can post your findings here.

I've tried Shareaza too, and it's faster and has a nicer interface than the other Gnutella servants. It's not, however, on a level with Kazaa yet.
You'll notice that this whole debate over the legitimacy of Gnutella2 (or Mike's Protocol, as Vinnie likes to call it) has two distinct sides: on the one hand, you've got the COMMERCIAL developers, including Vinnie Falco, LimeWire, and Xolox; on the other hand, you've got Mike Stokes and Gnucleus.

What this article fails to mention is that the registration of Gnutella2.com is the real issue at stake. The commercial interests are pissy because they've been one-upped by an upstart, as they see it.

Gnutella 2 is deservedly named, and clearing away the cruft was the only way to improve Gnutella. Mike Stokes clobbered the adware vendors with Shareaza, and did what they were all afraid to do: start fresh, start clean, and start out on a level with the current state of the art P2P applications currently available. I applaud the guy for having such guts. He registered the name, and he deserves to keep it. F*ck the spyware perpetrators.
Re:I think that it's reasonable, though by 0x0d0a · 2003-03-02 14:54 · Score: 1

Shareaza broke nothing.

When I said "broke", I was speaking only of the tradition of working together that the Gnutella developers had in the past.

--
May we never see th
Re:I think that it's reasonable, though by 0x0d0a · 2003-03-02 15:19 · Score: 1

This isn't just a commercial thing -- Raphael wasn't thrilled either, and gtk-gnutella isn't commercial.

--
May we never see th
Re:I think that it's reasonable, though by Istealmymusic · 2003-03-04 12:05 · Score: 1

Man, I'm glad my name isn't Quick right now.

--
"The lesson to be learned is not to take the comments on slashdot too literally." --Vinnie Falco, BearShare

Re:Spellcheck by Dave2+Wickham · 2003-03-02 05:16 · Score: 1

You missed "Gnultella" ;).

ShareReactor. by Grendel+Drago · 2003-03-02 05:47 · Score: 4, Informative

One word.

ShareReactor.

Complete, well-ripped releases. Most of the good stuff is in the forums. Sure, it's slow during peak hours, but that's a small price to pay for knowing that everything will arrive, intact, full quality, checksummed.

Also, eMule is a really nice-looking client.

--grendel drago

--
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca

Re:ShareReactor. by Ashran · 2003-03-02 06:06 · Score: 3, Informative

One word: Usenet
Nuff said

--

Before you email me, remember: "There is no god!"
Re:ShareReactor. by soupdevil · 2003-03-02 06:21 · Score: 2, Insightful

eMule is not a bad client, and currently there's a lot of interesting content on the donkey network. But central servers will be the death of any P2P network. FastTrack is already secretly negotiating the terms of their own demise with Hollywood. The donkey network will be next.

Only serverless p2p has a chance to survive long enough to develop enough non-infringing users to withstand the lawsuits. Right now Gnutella, Gnutella 2 and Overnet are our only choices. My money (and my own content) is on G2.

Check out www.leeware.com for non-infringing content available through the G2 network. And check out www.sharelive.com for a G2 site similar to ShareReactor.

Oth.net by Grendel+Drago · 2003-03-02 05:50 · Score: 2, Informative

For really weird or rare stuff, I check out oth.net. It's a search engine for ratio FTP sites. Some of them are scams. Ignore these. Also good for music videos.

--grendel drago

--
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca

So have you used it? by soupdevil · 2003-03-02 05:56 · Score: 2, Interesting

Mike may be young and naive, and a bit arrogant. But Shareaza is the most robust, feature-filled Gnutella client there is, and he did it all by himself. That's impressive.

FastTrack is proprietary and under attack, the donkey depends on central servers and Gnutella is stagnant. Assuming Mike releases the specs this month (as he's promised), we'll have an open source, server-free, super-scaling, global searching P2P network. We've never had one, and that's exciting.

The fact that Shareaza is free as in beer and free as in of-spyware/addware is just a bonus.

Re:So have you used it? by koh · 2003-03-02 07:23 · Score: 1

Assuming Mike releases the specs this month (as he's promised), we'll have an open source, server-free, super-scaling, global searching P2P network.

Open-source ?? Should I understand that Mike declared he would open the complete source code of Shareaza as well as the MP specs ?

AFAIK this is not the case. May you be so kind as providing a link ? And mention the licence used ?

--
Karma cannot be described by words alone.
Re:So have you used it? by soupdevil · 2003-03-02 07:37 · Score: 1

I said the network would be open source, not Shareaza.

Mike has said he will release the G2 specs this month.

Is there another free client? by Jay+Maynard · 2003-03-02 05:58 · Score: 2, Insightful

I use Shareaza because it doesn't bundle any adware, doesn't bundle any spyware, and doesn't do anything but file sharing. BearShare still has adware in it. Are there other clients that don't include the crap and still provide the function? (And no, I haven't touched the timeout settings, nor do I intend to.)

FWIW, BearShare's complaining seems motivated at least in part by the fact that Shareaza is out there potentially taking away its revenues...

--
Disinfect the GNU General Public Virus!

Re:Is there another free client? by sabNetwork · 2003-03-02 06:35 · Score: 1

Exactly, this is what the other P2P applications should imitate. Shareaza took the existing Gnutella network and turned it into something useful. After you use it for five minutes, you'll know what I'm talking about. What originally took hours of searching on Limewire now takes a few minutes with Shareaza/Gnutella2.

Shareaza is not planning on keeping the Gnutella2 protocol a secret. This is simply a marketing tactic; keep it secret long enough to lure new users, then release the spec. Seeing how Shareaza is the only P2P product that isn't making money (no ads, no spyware), I think they are entitled to be a little sneaky.

This being said, I hope that Shareaza releases the Gnutella2 spec in good time. Gnutella2 is the only way that competing P2P networks can compete against KaZaA.
Re:Is there another free client? by NathanBFH · 2003-03-02 07:40 · Score: 2, Informative

I don't know about Xolox or BearShare, but Limewire is open source, and the cvs version does not contain adware. http://www.limewire.org if you are interested. It's not as convienient as just downloading from the website, obviously, but it does get you an ad-free version of the client.
Re:Is there another free client? by Rares+Marian · 2003-03-02 20:20 · Score: 1

What marketting tactic?

If you are concerned about network standing up under the stress, then you can see this is a self-destructive tactic. Keeping it secret means that only a few people can benefit from development. The purpose of a client is to provide a good user interface. The purpose of the technology is to provide good service. In the end you end up with bastardized clients that meet neither goal very well.

If it were open from the beginning, then the day Mike's Protocol chokes on its own enthusiasm, people can fix it or they could throw all that development down the drain to go back to an open fixable system.

Reality has limits. It's not wise to rush to crash into them but to know how to manage them.

Networks are much the same.

--
The message on the other side of this sig is false.

Oh dear... by MP3Chuck · 2003-03-02 06:05 · Score: 1

"None of the three recognize Gnutella2 as true Gnutella and worry its propritary protocol will divide the Gnutella community"

<sarcasm>OMG Wouldn't that make getting illegal music/movies/software more difficult? WTF!!!11 </sarcasm>

--
Who doesn't like free music?

what a soap opera! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-03-02 06:11 · Score: 2, Informative

The problem with Gnutella and GDF is that it's a true soap opera with a few developers, that do not like each other that much. Well, as long as e.g. Bearshare can take control and distribute it's spyware, all of it's own proprietary extensions or seperation of the Gnutella network were fine. There are so many selfish facts and quotes from GDF developers in the past... I can't take them serious anymore! For example read what "holly" Bearshare developer states:

Vinnie (who owns gnutella3.com) has said that Bearshare will be "moving forward with our own proprietary Gnutella 3 technology". He has also stated that "Our goal is not to block Shareaza from the network, but rather to give their users the worst possible experience so they will stop using the application. I'll leave it up to your imagination as for the methods we will employ". Some reports say that a block may already be in place in the latest version of Bearshare.

From http://www.slyck.com/news.php?story=90

Civil war among Gnutella developers is not somthing new!
Every good client hiting Gnutella was usually accused being bad or crap. Once it was Phex, then Xolox, today it's Shareaza. Even well integrated features like 'swarmed downloading' were once rated "bad" from those developers who didn't have it in their own clients - now it's standard in every client. Bearshare has a long tradition of hidden features (not available to other vendors) or in suddenly blocking one competitor. Is there any Gnutella client that wasn't blocked or bitched in the past? I doubt that.

It's a long history of bitching against each other... not efficient work but indeed amusing. New ideas on the GDF looks more like "eat it or die" than a detailed and productive discussion. Other ideas are optimized for marketing instead for technology... Limewire decided to call it's superpeer concept "Ultrapeer" to make it look better than other P2P systems (even though it wasn't even reliabale - is it today or does it need more patches called GUESS2, GUESS3 HYPERMEGAGUESS?).

Of course there are exception! I'd like to name two: For exmaple one open source developer, John from Gnucleus, has written lines and lines of free code. Continously implementing new features while at the same time avoiding (the worst) GDF fights. For example, the Gnutella protocol documentation at http://rfc-gnutella.sourceforge.net/ mainly from Tor Klingberg & Raphael Manfredi - which was started long after the big ones had there userbase already (no papers prolly to keep new developers away and to increase greedy spyware businees plans? *asking*). I hope those guys and also Shareaza keep their motivation to innovate and help the Gnutella community. For those who believe the latest Bearwire hype (Bearwire = Bearshare + Limewire business alliance), I suggest speak with some other developers.... log on to irc.p2pchat.net ... AFAIK some Gnutella clients run a home channel there and you can meet develoepers as well.

I recomend to read the GDF archives and please poste some of the most funniest quote. Let's make a Gnutella soap opera best of. :)

Greets, Mark

PS: I wonder why Xolox sneaks to the side of Bearshare and Limewire. strange. well, must be one rules of a true soap opera: suprising changes or dead twin brothers popping up from nowhere.

Re:what a soap opera! by grumpygrodyguy · 2003-03-02 07:48 · Score: 1

As long as greed or fame is the fuel for development, there will be no real progress.

It's no coincidence that Linus Torvalds grew up in socialist Finland, and from that upbringing went on to do the work he did.

The U.S. is just not capable of producing people like him.

--
The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky
Re:what a soap opera! by esanbock · 2003-03-02 08:48 · Score: 1

Comments like that only aid the Linux terrorists.

Trust by bluelan · 2003-03-02 06:23 · Score: 1

Some guy has developed a closed source, closed protocol P2P client that he wants me to run on my system.

Morpheus
LimeWire
KaZaa
Blipster
NeoNapster
IMesh
Grokster
...

Sure, I'll run his app. I'd loan him my car keys too, if he wanted. I also like to let people hit me with a baseball bat, repetititively. I'm just that type of guy.

1) Lock 'em in
2) Spyware
3) ???
4) Profit

--

I used to be a narrator for bad mimes. (wright)

Re:Trust by julesh · 2003-03-02 06:45 · Score: 1

Actually, he's developed a closed source P2P app and promised to open the specs when he's finished writing them. But everyone's too impatient for that.

1) Lock 'em in
2) Spyware
3) ???
4) Profit

I don't think that's what he had in mind....
Re:Trust by bluelan · 2003-03-02 07:26 · Score: 1

It's entirely possible that he intends to release his specification publicly, even though he's already missed several self-imposed deadlines for doing so. Until it is released, you'd really have to trust the guy as a friend to trust his client.

--
I used to be a narrator for bad mimes. (wright)

This is how MS is going to conquer P2P by thehunger · 2003-03-02 06:25 · Score: 2, Insightful

In 6-12 months from now, if anybody asks how Microsoft managed to conquer the P2P marked so fast, simply point them back to this thread to show them the state of quibbling between all the other players.

What they should have done is gang up against Microsoft with open standards and inventive forward thinking and not simply try to use P2P as a scheme to get rich quickly.

Re:This is how MS is going to conquer P2P by julesh · 2003-03-02 06:47 · Score: 1

Have you actually looked at the MS P2P app? Come on, that conquer anything? You gotta be joking. Its basically MSN messenger for groups with all the bells and whistles. It allows you to push files to people who you've invited to connect to you. I don't see it going very far...

My Experience by Anonymous Coward · 2003-03-02 06:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

I used to use Limewire all the time, but it was written in Java so it was (a) slow and (b) had its own set of menu/window widgets, which made it a pain to use. The only files I ever found were popular music that I didn't need, Futurama episodes (okay - that part was good), and faked porn files that had links to paysites encoded inside.

I switch to Shareaza. It's small. First thing I notice is that the user interface is GREAT. Seriously, you have to be smoking crack to think its user interface is bad. It keeps me informed about my searches, uses the OS' native widgets, is FAST and best of all, I have never seen so many responses to my searches. Whether that is becuase of "Gnutella2" or something else I don't know, and don't care. When you're trying to download movies of Anna Ohura at 3am, you want what works, it's that simple.

And Shareaza doesn't include spyware crap.

Re:Spellcheck by p24t · 2003-03-02 06:35 · Score: 1

remember, stuff in italics is quoted from the submitter.

Just skip ahead and go to Gnutella3. by Kjella · 2003-03-02 06:36 · Score: 1

Remember Windows 2.0?
IPv5?
No.
Just go straight ahead and skip it, just make sure you agree on something better :)

Kjella

--
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings

Re:Just skip ahead and go to Gnutella3. by kenthorvath · 2003-03-02 11:49 · Score: 1

Remember Windows 2.0?
IPv5?
No, but I remember C+ ... whatever happened to that anyway? Damn c++ comes along and everyone forgets about the good ol' days ;-)
Re:Just skip ahead and go to Gnutella3. by Anders1 · 2003-03-02 13:14 · Score: 1

Remember Windows 2.0?
Yes.

Propietary??!! by cosmosis · 2003-03-02 06:38 · Score: 1

Perhaps I have not kept up with the latest P2P developments, but its almost impossible to imagine how Gnutella2 could possibly be Propietary. How is this even possible, that a new standard for a P2P protocol of all things, a systems that is decentralized without authority being propietary. Is this some kind of joke or a nightmare?

--
www.enthea.org

Re:Propietary??!! by soupdevil · 2003-03-02 10:57 · Score: 1

G2 is not "propietary" (sic). The initial G2 client, Shareaza, is proprietary, and was created by the creator of the G2 protocol to prove it would work.

Now that he's proven it will work, he's finalizing the G2 specs, which he has said he will release this month, which will make Gnutella2 a completely open protocol.

Re:Pings & Pongs, and the Gnutella Protocol by John+W.+Lindh · 2003-03-02 07:00 · Score: 1

As everyone here knows, the biggest problem with Gnutella is the sheer amount of bandwidth that each servent uses by just trying to "actively" discover hosts by using pings and pongs--but is this method really necessary?

Gnutella has stopped using Pings/Pongs that excessively almost two years ago. Today most of the bandwidth is used for routing queries and queryhits.

Gnutella is currently scaling infinitely. But it does and will never be able to let one user search the entire network. On Fasttrack or any other decentralized p2p network not a single search will ever reach more than a certain network horizon. The challenge is to increase this searchable horizon as much as possible. Clients sending many, many queries reduce this horizon because the more queries are sent, the sooner they will be flow-controlled. The only solution to this problem is, that every client says: "I'm just going send so many queries that are just as long-lived to find one or two hundred results and then I'm going to stop to free resources for others."

If there are many selfish users/clients searching for as many results as possible you can as well forget the whole open network thing. The most exciting idea behind Gnutella is that everybody can connect to it. This is its greatest strength and its greatest weekness at the same time. We will see if the world is ready for such a network or if it will go down the same road as Socialism ;-)

Anyone ever heard of Gnucleus? by MrChris007 · 2003-03-02 07:04 · Score: 2, Informative

I can't believe that when I searched the list of replies to this article there is no mention of Gnucleus. Not only is it open source, but there is not spyware or anoying pop-up ads in the program. I have used quite a few different Gnutella clients and I have found gnucleus to be one of the better. Sadly, they don't have a linux verison, but you can get the source and probably figure out a way to make it work on Linux or you could just run it in on linux using a windows emulator like Wine.

Re:Anyone ever heard of Gnucleus? by OuD · 2003-03-02 12:31 · Score: 1

Gnucleus may be good, but so is gtk-gnutella and mutella.
Gtk-gnutella has all the features I need: swarm downloading, blocking of bad (hammering) clients, SHA1, bandwidth throttling, ultrapeer support.. the works. Oh yeah, and an iptables-like filtering system with which one can create fairly complex rules to auto-download/auto-drop certain files selected with regexps etc.. (check for tutorials on the gtk-gnutella site for this one, it takes a bit of getting used to)
Mutella OTOH has no swarm downloading or advanced filtering (I think) but is console based, which has its advantages (think "screen" on remote server).

Lies, bloody lies! by John+W.+Lindh · 2003-03-02 07:35 · Score: 1

Vinnie (who owns gnutella3.com) has said that Bearshare will be "moving forward with our own proprietary Gnutella 3 technology".

That was more or less an empty threat, as Vinnie admitted later on BearShare. There are no concrete plans from BearShare's side to create a proprietary new protocol.

Even well integrated features like 'swarmed downloading' were once rated "bad" from those developers who didn't have it in their own clients - now it's standard in every client.

It was rated "bad" that Xolox had implemented a proprietary sub-protocol for its swarming without discussing it with the other developers.

Limewire decided to call it's superpeer concept "Ultrapeer" to make it look better than other P2P systems

Not true. Ultrapeers were initially called supernodes. The name was changed because they are working slightly different. Supernodes are indexing the files of the leafs, Ultrapeers aren't.

Of course there are exception! I'd like to name two: For exmaple one open source developer, John from Gnucleus, has written lines and lines of free code.

And so do LimeWire, gtk-gnutella, mutella or Phex. Shareaza however is completely proprietary.

For example, the Gnutella protocol documentation at http://rfc-gnutella.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net] mainly from Tor Klingberg & Raphael Manfredi - which was started long after the big ones had there userbase already (no papers prolly to keep new developers away and to increase greedy spyware businees plans? *asking*).

Crap. The papers have always been available at the GDF yahoogroup and at LimeWire.com. You didn't even have to join the group to download them so it did not take a Raphael Manfredi or a Tor Klingberg to document the gnutella protocol.

hope those guys and also Shareaza keep their motivation to innovate and help the Gnutella community

Shareaza chose to create its own proprietary protocol instead.

Open source project on windows: Gnucleus project by SailFly · 2003-03-02 07:37 · Score: 1

I used to contribute to this project, and enjoyed learning about the protocol this way. Today, I have little time to give in this area, but wanted to share with those who haven't come across:

Gnucleus

--
Suncoast Linux - Sarasota, FL

Timing. by Grendel+Drago · 2003-03-02 07:54 · Score: 2, Informative

Well... NNTP servers cost money, at least decent ones do. Also, there's the retention problem. What, you wanted last year's Buffy episodes? Sorry, those have been swept off the server for months now. ShareReactor releases may occasionally lack sources, but ask on the forum and someone will reshare. Anything on the mainpage will have sources, even if it's months old.

--grendel drago

--
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca

Re:Timing. by Ashran · 2003-03-02 14:43 · Score: 1

Well you can use a cheap unlimited bandwith server for your main downloads (www.usenetserver.com) and use a premium server for fills (www.easynews.com)[also has a global search and ~50 days rentention].
If you're nice and do a REQ someone will do a 'reshare' as well ;)

Granted you wont get everything, but you might not find it with with ShareReaktor either.

Counting the total amount of data aviable - i think usenet will still win.

--

Before you email me, remember: "There is no god!"

Hybrids. by Grendel+Drago · 2003-03-02 07:59 · Score: 1

Well, ShareReactor works just as well with Overnet, since the peer-to-peer communication part is identical and the links work just the same, partial file sharing, blah blah blah. Also, see here. Future versions of eMule may support Overnet as well as server-based communication. The lastest eDonkey does. (The 'hybrid'.)

Anyway, ed2k servers are pretty easy to set up, and it's not like they all live in the basement of the ed2k Corporation, Inc, a la Napster.

--grendel drago

--
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca

P2p linux client Question? by makoffee · 2003-03-02 08:04 · Score: 1

So far I han't found a p2p client that I like for linux yet. Right now I'm using giFT, but do any of you /.ers have any ideas?

--
-makoffee

Re:P2p linux client Question? by WWWWolf · 2003-03-02 13:12 · Score: 1

So far I han't found a p2p client that I like for linux yet. Right now I'm using giFT, but do any of you /.ers have any ideas?

giFT =) After napster's demise the only p2p app that has worked for me right out of box and worked well...
Mutella seems pretty nice, but I would avoid its web UI. Bad Mac imitation.
Re:P2p linux client Question? by Bitsy+Boffin · 2003-03-02 15:58 · Score: 1

Overnet, the sucessor to Edonkey is my client of choice at the moment, I was using KazaaLite under a VMWare windows install but I dropped that a month or so ago and just use Overnet under Linux now.

--
NZ Electronics Enthusiasts: Check out my Trade Me Listings

Re:Spellcheck by srirams · 2003-03-02 08:27 · Score: 1

its taco. what more can you expect from him other than dupes.

Alternative to Gnutella2 by mattficken · 2003-03-02 09:06 · Score: 1

I recently started a project on sourceforge called G8 (http://geight.sourceforge.net/). Its goal is to modify Gnutella to become the Search Protocol for the internet. This will take the place of search engines and will be able to find content that search engines miss. The proposed network architecture is similar to Ultrapeers, except the new 'Routers' route searches only to those routers or servants that they think will most likely have the information. This allows for developers to test new search algorithms, doing for searching what open-source has done for software. Further, by legitimizing Gnutella into a standard protocol, it will be difficult for ISPs to filter or block it out. If you value your ability to search the internet and your ability to use Gnutella, I ask you to help this project. Matt Ficken (mattficken@users.sourceforge.net) http://geight.sourceforge.net/

Mike's response by soupdevil · 2003-03-02 09:16 · Score: 3, Informative

Check out this thread on Shareaza's forum if you want to read Mike's thoughtful response to Vinnie.

http://www.shareaza.com/forum/viewthread.aspx?ID =5 138

easy solution by acidrain69 · 2003-03-02 09:34 · Score: 1

The gnutella developers need to get their asses in gear and rename what they were developing Gnutella3. And continue to publicly shun Shareaza. And pick apart it's implementation.

I think shareaza has a right to make improvements to the software, but I don't think they have any right to take the gnutella2 name.

--
-- Having a Creationist Museum is like having an Atheist place of worship

Re:Lies? Truth, nothing but truth! by John+W.+Lindh · 2003-03-02 09:36 · Score: 1

No. The papers were a complicated mix of old documents and new additions (most not documented nor indexed).

You are an idiot. And I'm not even going to bother explaining to you in detail why those papers are not complex at all for the experienced developer.

Even worse, you had to search a path through old v0.4 specs, old GDF postings and finally reading open source code (to reverse engineer what the core communication does). Then you had to test your own Gnutella code against other clienst and ask on the GDF why it doesn't work with client x or client y.

Most of those questions came from dim-witted school boys who thought they could be the next Shawn Fanning because they had read "A Beginner's Guide To Visual Basic". Most of them didn't even bother to read the specs carefully.

AFAIK G2 was never planed nor designed nor announced as a proprietary network, so your false rumours are wrong.

Look up the meaning of the word 'proprietary', please.

Bittorrent by harmonica · 2003-03-02 10:00 · Score: 1

eDonkey is good for large files, albeit slow. I've been using BitTorrent for a lot of my large files (the latest buffy and anime fansubs) lately, although I don't know if this counts as P2P.

Sure, you are (potentially) downloading from several people and, at the same time, uploading to several others. Relatively centralized (but that's why it works so well, IMO).

Re:Bittorrent by Anenga · 2003-03-02 10:58 · Score: 2, Interesting

The problem with BitTorrent is that it's system is flawed. When you close the window after downloading, your not sharing anymore. Thus people often find they can download 80% of the file and can't ever get the rest. Thus, only downloading 0day releases within a few days of their release is only when BitTorrent works well.

Also, you can't search on BitTorrent. You have to find websites to download from. If the website gets shut down, so does the ability to get the files.
Re:Bittorrent by harmonica · 2003-03-02 11:35 · Score: 2, Informative

Thus, only downloading 0day releases within a few days of their release is only when BitTorrent works well.

True (from my limited experience), but it still is p2p, even if it is specialized.

Also, you can't search on BitTorrent. You have to find websites to download from. If the website gets shut down, so does the ability to get the files.

Yes, but again, BT is a specialized p2p tool, not flawed. It cannot (and probably never wanted to) replace protocols like those used with Freenet or Gnutella.

The design goal was to make big files available to a relatively large number of people who know exactly what they want, with everyone participating in sharing the load.

But you made me think about a definition of p2p. I would probably come up with something very general.

A slide I found suggests that there is no consensus on the term. searchNetworking has a more precise definition. Hm, I'll do some reading...

mutella by akb · 2003-03-02 10:01 · Score: 1

I love mutella for its terminal client and web interface.

Re:mutella by Anenga · 2003-03-02 10:44 · Score: 1

Don't use Mutella! It re-queries the network every 60 seconds and is bringing the network to it's knees (Gnutella1 that is, G2 is unaffected).
Re:mutella by hageshii · 2003-03-02 11:24 · Score: 1

Ugh! Yeah, I found out about this and notified Max, the lead coder for Mutella. He says he's sorry and is going to fix that in the next version.

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.sig: No such file or directory

BearShare's creator is foolish by M3wThr33 · 2003-03-02 10:03 · Score: 1

Limewire and Xolox's creator's were very civil discussing it. Bearshare's guy actully posted a rant on a forum with SEVERAL cuss words and went out of control. That's why I've been banning BearShare users when they try to download from me. I want that program to die now. I don't care how good it is. If the creator can't be mature about it, I can't support it.

the bottom line... by havaloc · 2003-03-02 10:04 · Score: 1

...is that Shareaza is free of ads and spyware, and give the end user the best experience that can be had on any Gnutella class clients. That's what matters in the end.

I'm also sorry I supported Limewire twice by purchasing the pro edition to support their efforts. Wasted money. Live and learn I guess.

Vincent / Bearshare by rsax · 2003-03-02 14:27 · Score: 1

It's really hard to take this Vincent character seriously considering how immature he seems to be. I mean come on, try proving your point(s) without calling other people "son of a whore". That is just plain stupid. And lets see: Shareaza.. free, no spyware, no adware, works better, better interface, stable. Bearshare, Limewire on the other hand: spyware, adware, and not as refined as Shareaza. Who's spyware/adware revenues are being hurt here? With that being said, the Shareaza author should redeem himself too by releasing the full Gnutella2 specs, after all, he's using the "Gnutella" name. Then again, gnutella3.com seems to be registered by the immature Bearshare author and who's said that gnutella3 protocol will be proprietary.. blah, what a mess. All I know is that if Shareaza starts bundling any spyware then it's back to ftp/irc exclusively for me.

Re:Vincent / Bearshare by Ziviyr · 2003-03-02 18:41 · Score: 1

I got dibs on gnutella4.com!

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Someone set us up the bomb, so shine we are!

My favorite P2P.... by mbourgon · 2003-03-02 15:58 · Score: 1

Is the NNTP protocol. NNTP Peer to NNTP Peer, and then I grab the files from them. Works well, especially keeping SVCDs on the BTVS episode I just watched on TV. a.b.m.b-v-s

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"Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples

WinMX by jjga · 2003-03-03 03:37 · Score: 1

Another excellent (although only available for Windows AFAIK) P2P system is WinMX.

funny by No-op · 2003-03-03 05:15 · Score: 1

Mind you, moral arguments about operating systems sound rather humorous in the context of which application lets you steal content faster :)

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EOM

Not quite 50 days by fendel · 2003-03-03 08:46 · Score: 1

More like 32 days right now, at least in the groups that I know of. Nothing to sneeze at, anyhow.

And some ISPs have decent news servers. Mine has good completion but lousy retention. If I want to grab anything there, I have to check the newsgroups just about every day. Still beats trying to download SVCD video on my $10-per-6-GB Easynews account.

Easy! by Rares+Marian · 2003-03-03 09:14 · Score: 1

So then...

You can prevent abuse!

You just said the hostile client closed the connection.

Also, it can be improved thusly:
1. Allow no more than Y querries total from the whole net.
2. At the time that it happens, find the average querries per host based on a minimum unit of difference between each host in descending order of querries. This is to prevent those who try to buddy up in overquerrying from raising the average.

3. Ignore those below the average.
4. Add up the totals of all those above the average.
5. Using that same difference unit, get group totals to find the most common ones (buddies or accident they cause trouble either way).

6. Reorder them according to those group totals in descending order. This way the ones most likely to respawn are blocked. We're not the morality police here, just the fairness police. If some harrassment is happening that isn't killing the network, it isn't worth taking away from feature development. Argue it in the discussions not in the code if it's a "small claims" case. We can add features to make sure the abuse isn't killing users' individual connections.

7. Find the average of these.

8. Ban the top 2/3s over the second average for an hour
9. Disconnect the bottom 1/3 over the second average (it'd be great if we could just suspend and any client that refused to suspend would be banned for days).

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