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The Internship That Students Drool Over
selan writes "The Baltimore Sun has a feature on Microsoft's internship program and why it is so popular with college students. Not only are interns paid, but they also receive the same perks as other Microsoft employees. At the end of the summer they are treated to a catered barbecue at Bill Gates's house and have a good shot at a full time job after graduation. You do not know the power of the Dark Side."
Sorry if it's a stupid question but I would have thought most internships are paid - at some level or another.
Or have I got the wrong view of this completely?
Matt Thompson - Actuality - Insert product here.
I have a good friend who interned an MS. He had a good experience, and was offered a job when he graduated. They pay interns very well, but they are expected to pull 55+ work weeks, and have no weekends. If you can get past the stigma of working for the Dark Side, it's a great opprotunity...
(Dell Guy Voice)
Dude, you're working in Hell!
Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.
more like an Intergration into the borg mother ship ;)
moo
I propose that we create our own intern positions (special sourceforge accounts maybe?), and at the end of the year they are all treated to a barbecue by Linus!
Actually I'm half serious. Perhaps we really should be taking on interns; it strengthens both persons involved in the relation and open source in general.
My wife worked at Microsoft for a couple of years, and they are a GREAT employer. In terms of corporate culture they really rock.
Their raises are always above average, their stock options used to rock (the stock has flatlined for the past 2 years, but before that it went up something like 50-75% ever year).
They have volleyball courts, stand-up video games in almost every hallway, pizza parties, great hardware to play with, great buildings, nice walking/jogging paths right near campus.
And everyone there LOVES Microsoft. They love being part of an org that's in the forefront of technology.
It's pretty amazing to see.
Anyone who hasn't should read Microserfs. While it may not be based on a true life story, it definitely captures the essence of Microsoft.
well.. i worked on open source in college.. $11 an hour... But I can sleep at night :P
...I don't see the problem. If it's secure paid work in these times, who cares? Hell, i'd do it.
"Oh no, a company is going to great lengths to make itself appear enticing to prospective employees".
Let me break it to you: These are hard times we are living in. A job is just a job. You earn your shit from 9-5 and get out of there, it's what you do to pay the bills so that you don't sit at home twiddling your knob all day bored out of your skull, so that you can afford a roof, to eat, and buy funky cool things.
Feel that power? That's mah MOUSING FINGER
Imagine that... a well paid internship with one of the world's largest companies, lots of perks, a pretty good chance of a permanent position with said megacorp, great perks, AND a catered lunch?
Yeah, I wouldn't take that position. That would be fucking stupid.
-- Minds are like parachutes... they work best when open.
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
The original article really doesn't tell us a lot that we don't already know. It seems to be there to plug Microsoft and their internship program.
On the other hand, an interesting point is bought up about smaller companies not being able to afford internships in periods of economic downturn. Does this mean that Microsoft, who are still recruiting strongly as ever, have an even better chance of picking up the cream of the crop? Of course... It makes perfect business sense, doesn't it? What I'd like to hear about are other, smaller companies and their recruiting schemes.
Not only does Microsoft fly you out to Seattle/Redmond for the 2nd round interviews (all expenses paid), they also give you an extra day to tour the city. Which is very nice of them.
Each interview tends to last 1 hour, like Rafi said and questions vary between positions. For Program Managers (PMs) questions are more scenario based, for Software Design Engineers (SDEs) the questions are almost all programming and algorithm questions. Most questions do not tend to have the "right" answers but the interviewers are looking at how the candidates think.
The Internship
Once an offer is accepted by the intern, MS takes care of all the traveling details. From the plane ticket, to the apartment, to the subsidized car rental (I'll talk about this more later), to shipping your computer and stuff to Redmond. Perhaps the most interesting perk is that MS will help you rent a car. Normally, a driver has to be at least 25 years old to rent a car, but with MS interns as young as 18 are able to rent cars. This eventually leads to many accidents a year, the costs of which are all covered by MS. :)
Interns and recruiters also team up to sponsor lots of activities to keep the geeks happy. Activities range from a Puzzle Day, a full day of team-based puzzle solving, to a scavenger hunt through Seattle, to a ski trip to Whistler (only a 3-4hr drive). Other perks also includ free membership to the posh Pro Club gym and a corporate card that offers special discounts to all the sights and attractions across the Pudget Sound area.
Personally, I had a great time as an intern at MS and would do it again in a hard beat. The only complaint I had was male intern to female intern ratio.
I interned at Microsoft up in Canada for high school, then they invited me back when I was in University. I got a job working for one of Microsoft's partners part-time while I was attending school, and during summer.
It was an amazing place to work, and I'd say as many as 20% of the employees there were interns (In MSFT Canada HQ).
The everyday perks were incredible, free drinks, 1/2 subsidized lunch room, laptop, iPAQ, yearly budget to purchase anything you want (that will help the company)... It was really amazing.
..... .. . what about: if you can't beat 'em; join 'em ?? I'm a hardcore slackware kind of guy and spent my last two years of university (honours comp. sci.) without ever touching a windows box, but I'd go work for them, in a heartbeat.....
Oh god, that woman is John Romero!
There's more info about the entire interview process and the positions on their MS College Website: http://www.microsoft.com
well, i'm not going to remember all of this well, so if someone could help me on this.
if you read "no logo", naomi spends quite a bit of time on microsoft's hiring and employee practices.
1. microsoft outsources a lot of it's employment to "temp" firms like manpower. this allows them to "hire" full time employees, who are never really given a contract. thus they don't have to give them any benefits, nor do they have a guaranteed job (so they're easier to fire). i _think_ i remember that it was said that microsoft only has about half of the people working for them on their payroll.
(1.5). i think i remember reading that "real" employees have different colored shirts than "temp" employees.
2. they don't hire they're internal postal mail staff, pitney bowes runs it.
3. capitalism creates a market, which allows us to purchase items without having to think about the process by which these items came to the market, as we are then only concerned with value. this allows for violations of human rights, destruction of the rain forest, and hairs in our soup.
help out.
I've got a stack of about 40 rejections sitting in my drawer right now, they are in response to about 160 resumes I've sent out in the last 5 weeks alone. An internship with Microsoft would be a great opportunity, regardless of the stigma. At this point I'm just looking for the internship, regardless of where and who.
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
"You do not know the power of the Dark Side".
Grow up, child! Even if it was sarcastic or in a wicked way ment to be 'funny', it's too pathetic for words. Microsoft is like any other company which wants to make money. Employees who work at Microsoft, do that because they get paid for what they do there, like people at Sun or IBM (or Red Hat).
Just because MS mistreats some of its customers, doesn't mean the individual employee there is a bad person, or worse: stupid, because he felt for the 'power of the dark side'. For once, keep marketingpoop and real life separated.
You should read "Proudly serving my corporate masters" by Adam Barr ( I believe he even is a slashdotter). Then you will understand that interns at Microsoft are not picked up at MacDonalds, but recruited at the finest universities and should pass a tough selection program. No wonder as a company they are treated as normal human beings: the best people know they are the best and will only work for... the best, ('best' can be different for a lot of people) so Microsoft will do everything they can to get them on board (like IBM, Sun and other companies will do too).
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
...and I apologize if this has been answered ad nauseam, but maybe any MS employees out there can answer: does Microsoft prohibit you from working on open source projects on your own time, even if they aren't related to the project you are currently doing at MS (eg. Windows developer working on the gimp or something)?
... barbecued at Bill Gates's house.
Never underestimate the appetite of the Dark Side !
A slashdotting - you get the stick first and then the carrot !
I was an MS Intern several years ago. (And was a MacPhile and OSS proponent the whole time.) It was probably the single best work experience I've ever had. And that's even after I mention that my boss and I clashed at every turn and I ultimately got a "no hire" recommendation, pretty much blacklisting me from ever working there again. You can hate the way they do business, or their FUD marketing or whatever you want, but at the end of the day, working there is like being an endowed researcher at the coolest, most well-funded university on earth, where they only let in the uber-smart. It was easily the highest concentration of smart people I've ever had the pleasure of being around. If someone had handed me a crystal ball and told me the shit the economy was about to become I would have kissed some serious ass and made sure I got an offer there.
This too shall pass.
According to a Sunday Times report the other day, Microsoft is the "best" UK employer. Scary quote from the article:
;-).
"We aren't the Moonies, but it is like a family. I met my wife, Moira, at work and when we got married the canteen even offered to bake our cake!"
I expect their children will automatically be indentured at the age of 16
Considering what they make their customers sign for a *tiny* bit of insider information, I can't imagine what they'd make an insider sign.
Well if you really want to know, I have an MS offer packet sitting in front of me. All the "scary" stuff is spelled out in a 3 page employee agreement. Here's a summary of the points:
1. Employee will not interfere \w MS's business interests or engage in activity that will interfere \w job performance.
2. Employment is terminable at will, by either party.
3. Nondisclosure agreement.
4. MS owns all copyrights developed during an employee's period of employment.
5. MS owns all inventions developed during an employee's period of employment, unless it was developed on employees own time, does not relate to MS business, and is not derivative of work done at MS.
6. Employees must declare all owned intellectual property\inventions\copyrights before employment.
7. Employment at MS must not infringe upon agreements \w prior employers.
8. Employee must return all materials\documents provided by MS.
9.One-year non-compete\non-solicitation clause.
10. At termination, MS can withhold money from employees to pay debts owed to the company for advances, overpayments, and company store.
11. MS is not responsible for loss of personal property.
12. Violation of any of the previous will be prosecuted if necessary.
13. MS will not pay attorney's fees if court proceedings are brought begun and they are related tot he employee agreement.
14. This agreement is governed by all applicable laws of the state of Washington, yada yada yada.
Sorry, it's pretty standard and boring.
Thank you. I think this is one of the first /. posts I've seen where the person doing all the talking actually has some experience of the situation.
I've spent some time in Redmond for meetings (WSI), and it looks like a cool place to work. I've also spent some time (and money!) in the company store, salivated over the nice plasma tv / media pc and felt a little geeky in the musuem.
From what I see and hear from my MS friends its a great environment.
Short answer: no.
If you do sign an NDA as part of a job contract, it expires as soon as your job assignment ends. You are free to use whatever knowledge you have inside your head. (Taking along actual source code with you is another matter. In that case, you are actually employed, and the NDA is in effect.)
(IANAL, so don't take this as legal advice.)
WWTTD?
I have a friend who interned with Linux. He had all the free beer he could download, but the company went chapter 11 before his internship was finished. They didnt pay anything (the OS is free, after all), but they are expected to contribute while they arent playing Quake. If you can get past the stigma of living with your parents, its a great opportunity...
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
9.One-year non-compete\non-solicitation clause.
One year non-compete with MS? Since MS is involved in just about everything, wouldn't this prevent working for most companies in the computer industry?
Paying workers as they learn is a relatively new phenomenon, and a direct result of the industrial revolution.
Back in the Olden Days, you often DID have to buy your way into an apprenticeship position where you could learn the trade of your choice. And then you might not get paid beyond room and board til you made journeyman status.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Wow, I never thought I'd say this, but I'm actually starting to like Bill!!!
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
I keep finding that I write a piece of code, and although it works, it would be so much nicer to have done it differently. Trouble is, it works. Company resources (i.e. me) are so much better spent fixing things that don't work at all.
My own code, I get to redo as many times as I want. This does tend to make it better, but it takes longer to produce. The same no doubt applies to open source. There's no real problem caused if people do reinvent the wheel.
Now, politically I'm not a big fan of Microsoft; but some people are I suppose, and I figure that this isn't a philosophy question. I'll put that aside for the moment. Also, I'd probably gladly work there if I were still into looking for a tech job (not that they'd let me in, the competition sounds pretty tight). It sounds like a pretty sweet gig.
:).
From a stability and performance standpoint on the desktop yes, newer versions of Windows are pretty damn good. I haven't had a BSOD that I couldn't trace back to a faulty device driver or bad hardware since before I started using NT4. Mozilla crashes with about the same frequency of IE (neither of which crashes very much). OpenOffice.org crashes a lot more than any version of office after Office95.
At the same time, from a security standpoint things are as bad as ever. Of all the machines on my network here, the only ones that have ever been compromised are the Windows boxes. All of them, at one point or another. I constantly worry about not exposing them to the outside world. I hit Windows Update at least once a week and my roommates usually do the same. In this regard we're much more careful than most Windows users, and we have the additional measure of hiding behind an OpenBSD NAT box. I'm at the point where I won't store any vital or private data on it.
I don't hate the Windows UI, though I'm much more comfortable in a UNIX environment. I like having a ton of high quality commercial software ready for me to install without jumping through a dozen hoops trying to get it working in Wine or having to resort to VMware. I like that all the games I want to play pretty much just work. In a lot of ways Windows is just fine, and in even more ways it's better than the free UNIX desktop alternatives (though the gap is slowly narrowing). What I can't stand is the fact that it's almost impossible for me to put any sort of trust in a box that runs Windows, no matter what I do.
Oh, and on the server it's just not even fucking close. I think pretty much everyone acknowledges that at this point, though.
You make a good point about the MacOS. Before OSX it was as bad as Windows95 on its worst day. Mac people are zealots that make the most rabid Linux supporters look like level-headed individuals, though, so they'd never complain within earshot of outsiders. Of course now they've got a desktop OS that the rest of the world wishes they had. Good for them. I'll rejoin them when I get a new job and can afford... things... again
Game... blouses.
I have been a Microsoft intern the past two summers. I've also accepted a full time position with Microsoft once I graduate from college.
:). It's a slight ego booster.
:)
Some interns have much better experiences than others. I would say a vast majority have a great time, both professionally and socially. I am one of them, although I know some that didn't have a good time at all.
Work is work as an intern. You're expected to gear up fairly quickly, but not so as to stress you out. You *are* an intern - Microsoft is not going to give you a job that is 100% mission critical. However, as an intern, you *can* make significant contribution to your group's products (You can find my name in the Xbox credits
I saw a post that said you're expected to pull 55+ hour weeks. This isn't true. You are required to complete your assignments. If that means you need to work your ass off, and you want a good review, then that's what you have to do. If you're an awesome coder and can get it done in 20 hours, good for you. Go drink the rest of the time
Corporate culture is great. Everyone is supportive about things like personal time, social lives, time off, etc. Morale is really high at Microsoft. Through the roof. The company just treats you right in many different ways.
Being a Microsoft intern was the first time I had a consistent, fulfilling social life too. Pretty much every weekend was a party and having fun around Seattle.
The party at Bill's house is getting to be a bit cliche. I suspect Bill doesn't really want to do it anymore, but he's expected to now. There are so many interns at MS that there are several parties over the course of a week.
On the other hand, it's pretty damn sweet to get to see the inside of Bill's house.
You should never take life too seriously - You'll never get out of it alive.
At the same time, from a security standpoint things are as bad as ever. Of all the machines on my network here, the only ones that have ever been compromised are the Windows boxes.
I agree that this is the case. Yet, a sensible explanation of why this is so is that more people write Windows exploits than Unix. Hence more flaws are found. The old adage of OSS is: debugging is fungible. Well so is cracking. Let's call that Alomex Law "cracking is fungible", as a consequence the most popular platform will be the most cracked. In fact as Linux continues to gain ground we'll see an increase in exploits (side note: about a year ago all our Red Hat boxes were cracked here).
In simple terms, if my goal as evil-cracker is to maximize disruption why would I spend hours pouring BeOS code that would give me access to four computers, when I can build upon readily available cracking utilities that can give me access to 90% of the world's computers?
Yup, I was one of them. I landed an internship for the giant in the summer of 2000. Here's my take on what happened:
;)
The Interviews: One phone interview with what I later learned was an HR rep took about 90 minutes. She mostly asked generic thinking questions, encouraging me to think aloud. Stuff like "If you could build your own movie theatre, what would it be like?" A couple of days later, I heard from an actual recruiter who said they'd like to interview me in person. At many of the larger schools, a Microsoft interviewing team will actually visit the campus, but in this case, they flew me up to Redmond. Got a sweet 4 day trip - one day to fly up, one day to interview, one day to hang in Seattle, and flew back on the last day. I will have to say that the interview day was without doubt the most grueling day of my entire life. I was directed to show up at campus at about 8:30 AM. Since I had been provided a rental car and hotel room about 3 minutes away, this wasn't a problem. I spent the first interview with another HR recruiter (Brian Schneider actually, who was quoted in the article). He mostly prepped me for the day, telling me to always remember who the audience was for anything I spoke about and to not worry about getting the right answer, just to talk through what I was thinking. I was then shuttled over another building, where the real interview process goes like this. You sit in the lobby, and someone comes out from the back. They take you back to their actual office and spend 45 minutes to an hour with you. After their questions, they lead you back to the lobby. There's two choices after that. If you did well, another employee will come and interview you. If you didn't, the next person to come out will call a shuttle for you back to the HR building, and your day is over. I wasn't that lucky. What they don't tell is that after every interview, the interviewer writes up a short spiel about you and passes the email thread along to your next interviewer. I spent the entire day in 5 interviews. They literally picked my brain to pieces. The only tough development question I was asked was how I would reverse a linked list and I wrote out some pseudo-code. (I wasn't, however, applying for a 'grunt' programmer position, although I do like to code.) The vast majority of the questions were "how you think" questions: how I would design an alarm clock with an unlimited budget, how elevator controls should work, justify my programming of a TV with 5 buttons. Also several "puzzle" questions which I usually had to think about but got an acceptable if not expected answer in the end. Everything was very laid back - the campus dress code is wear something, and everyone has carte blanch over how they decorate their office. I made it home after 6PM and pretty much just curled up in a ball and slept. They make it a point to get back to you in a week, and when they did, I was shocked at the salary. Let me just say that the article cuts the line a little low. (Although not everyone makes the same amount - you do better in a product group with an app that ships and makes money like Office or Windows, than you do in a business group that just manages internal affairs like payroll databases.)
The Summer: I had a blast. Every intern gets assigned a "mentor" who is more of a guide than a boss. You usually take a bit of his/her work and it actually gets assigned to YOU. Whatever decision YOU make is what stands. It's cool cause you can actually make a difference. Of course everything is still subject to peer review but I can recall some decisions I made. [Our product never actually shipped although some reincarnation of it may appear in the future...] The first day I showed up I had an actual office with my nameplate already on it and a computer hooked up and ready to go. I was free to do what I want, really. And contrary to the article, you work your own hours. Literally. I was provided subsidized housing and a subsidized rental car, as well as a pass card that would let me into any building on campus 24 hours a day 365 days a year. As long as I showed up for any meetings I was a part of, I could work as many or as few hours a day/week as I wanted. Still had to get the work done of course, and I did work some *long* weeks, especially when bug or demo deadlines were coming up. They also *threw* money at me. Every time I turned around, someone was dropping a "perk" off at my office... a designer fleece... a picnic backpack... cool stuff you actually use and not worthless corporate "gifts." Oh, and all the drinks are free all the time to all employees. The many kitchens are all constantly stocked with both a Pepsi and Coke fridge.
The Perks: We had free use of the buildings anytime. Quite a few times we hauled a DVD player down to a "conference room" (think small movie theatre size, not nonproductive-meeting-room size) and set it up on the giant projection screen for a movie night. I never got one peep from security, even when playing laser tag across the corporate campus from 11PM - 2AM with half a dozen other interns. Basically if you work there, have it your way. You have many of the same perks as full-timers as an intern. Free bus rides all over the city. This MS "benefit" card that got us and guests free or heavily discounted admittance to TONS of Seattle attractions. The MS shuttle system is designed to get employees to and from the separate buildings but they also make scheduled trips to various outlying areas. It's all free. Oh, and one of the best parts is the MS Company Store. Yes, every version of every software product MS has ever made is freely available on the corporate LAN, most of the time with those @$#& CD-keys disabled. But if you'd like a boxed copy with a real CD and that pamplet that passes as a manual these days, the company store has all current products at a heavy discount. Books and hardware are usually 50% off retail (I picked up quite a few of the Intellimouse Explorers) and software is 90 to 95% OFF retail. That means copies of Windows were $20-25, and full versions of Office were only slightly more. Felt good be legit for once.
The Barbecue: Yup, we went to Bill's. Met him, Melinda, and even the kids Jennifer and Rory. Played on their private beach. Swung on the swing set. Ate until we were gorged. Pretty much just hung out for the evening. The classic moment was when I had loaded my plate up (it's a buffet) and was walking back to my seat. A waitress passed by with a mouth-watering plate of the best looking fruit-topped cheese cake I'd ever seen. I immediately swung around, saying "I'm gonna make sure and get me a piece of that before it runs out!" The server just turned around, smiled, and said "Oh, don't worry, we never run out of anything." I was shocked but it turned out to be true. When I went to the dessert table later there was still plenty of everything.
The Secret: All in all, the intern program is lucrative so as to benefit MS, not you. An internship for them is basically an extended interview. They like to give internships to those who are one summer away from graduation. That way, if you do well over your three months, they can snap you up right after graduation. If you don't, well, they only lost 3 months worth of salary on you. It's all about finding the top talent.
I don't know why people are slamming college students that are interns at Microsoft.
First off, any job in this economy is a good job. The dot com boom is over and so are the 100K jobs where a pulse was the only requirement.
Second, when you have a big company like MS on your resume, the job market opens up a lot more, even in bad times. I worked at the "Evil Northwest Book, CD's and More company" and don't regret it one bit. After leaving that company I had a job in 6 weeks that paid 15K more a year. Having that those kinds of companies on the resume helps a lot. You can call me a whore, but you'll do it from the unemployment office.
Three, MS treats it employees well. I know of very few companies that offer all of the benefts and salary that MS offers. When it comes down to it, work is only about three things; Pay, Benefits, and Intresting work. MS appears to provide all three.
Linux O Muerte!
In case you read replies, I should warn you not to take them personally.
The vast majority of the people here read a great comment, nod or shake their heads, and carry on without replying. I was about to do the same, until I read some of the other replies you got... Don't take the anonymous replies from a few cruel jerks with too much time on their hands as opinions representative of the rest of the people on the site. Your comment was a great one, and at least the moderators showed their appreciation.
"I will take the Ring," he said, "though I do not know the way."
Microsoft has always been one of the Fortune top rated copmanies to work for. Up there with Adobe, WalMart, Wegmans, and Pfizer.
(granted they did have an issue with being sued by the part time people because those people apparently felt that the contract that they agreed to and signed... was unfair - not sure what ever came of that - perhaps with the downturn in the economy those people realized that they were lucky for their jobs and shut the hell up)
I have 10 friends that I went to college with that interviewed with Microsoft, and now 5 of them work there (they all got offers, 3 of them didn't want to move, one of them opted for grad school, and the last thought he had a chance at Apple or something... he didn't last I heard). (I can remember one of the guys wore Tevas, a shirt he had painted in that had holes in it, and ragged cut offs to his Microsoft interview, while some others debated on suits or not - he wanted to make sure that they were only going by his brain... he got the offer... and turned it down to go to grad school)
The guys that work there love it. And in the tech world (I guess only outside of slashdot), seeing that you worked at Microsft actually has some tech cred to it - I know of 3 guys that I went to school with that went on to start their own companies and the MS name on their cv helped get their funding.
I know a guy that works in their computer game department, and I know a guy that works in their XBox game department (I think it is slightly funny that they are even different departments). They each think it is the coolest job on the planet, and I'm not sure I blame them.
I find it really amusing that "everyone" here thinks MS is so evil, when in reality, they are one of the best companies to work for - and perhaps are even doing some things right - as much as it hurts the people here to think.
It is human nature to strive to be at the top, and to some extent, to resent those that sit at the top. Were Apple or Linux to rise up and dethrone the current MS position, the same people here would start griping about the exact same issues that MS is going through because they are side effects of beinga successful company.
and in true slashdot mentality, I'm sure this will get modded troll
There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
I grew up in Seattle and actually started working for Microsoft my Junior/Senior year of high school through their HS program. I then worked for the company for the three summers of my college years at the UW. All told I did 5 internships in 3 different divisions. In the end I decided not to work for Microsoft, opting for a smaller and highly profitable company in downtown Seattle.
:-)
I did however really enjoy my time at MS. It's a fun intern program. Microsoft knows how to party and for a college person it's an ideal situation.
However I concluded that my internships really didn't help me in the end. Also because I had been at the company so long Microsoft assumed I was garunteed to work for them after graduation. When I interviewed for FT my senior year recruiting did not listen to my desires. I was lied to about position availability and after battling with them for some time about various things when I showed up I was interviewing for a position in a group I had specifically requested not to work in. This is not unexpected though. If you give someone the perception that they have control over you they will often times abuse it.
Fortunatly I am happier now and am being given a level of responsibility MS would have never given me.
Everything you mentioned, happened to me.
Now, after 13 years at Microsoft I am 40 and retired. I am older, wiser and RICHER than I was then, and I busted my ass to get here.
I look back on those free drinks and subsidized lunch room with great gratitude, because until I vested, that was where I got most of my meals. I got most of my exercise on the soccer field and at the Pro Club. I got most of my friendships and sexual conquests from Buildings 9 through 22.
Now, I get to do whatever the hell I want to do, like sit here in my pj's at almost 10 in the morning and look down at all the poor souls waiting to get across the 520 while I can hop in my SeaRay when ever I need to cross the lake.
It was worth every hard, long, fucked up minute I spent on campus because the rest of my days belong to me.
Well, I guess you and me have a different view of the world.
You see, I know how to enjoy myself without needing to be excessively rich. I have lots of great friends who I see very regularly, I live within a ten minute walk of the beach, I go hiking and biking most weekends. I don't work late or weekends. I often get up at 10am on weekdays, because I'm my own boss. And I don't need to be a millionaire to do any of that.
Personally I would not sacrifice thirteen years of the prime of my life for the just for the sake of money. If you think that makes me an idiot, so be it.
As a percentage, though, there are a lot more competent women out there than blokes - I have been asked stupid questions by loads more guys than gals, even when you take the smaller number of gals into account.
If you're going to flame, at least have the decency to log in, asshole...
oh brave new world, that has such people in it!
I remember from school that one of their draws was that they didn't have a minimum GPA requirement for internships (just an all day interview process that was notorious for being difficult and tiresome). A bunch of the poeple that I knew that weren't proud of their academic accomplishments tried out for internships there. A bunch of others did have high GPAs, I'm just saying that one of the things that attracted students was that they didn't require a minimum GPA
> they are a GREAT employer. In terms of corporate
...
...
> culture they really rock.
> And everyone there LOVES Microsoft.
> Anyone who hasn't should read Microserfs. While it may
> not be based on a true life story, it definitely captures the
> essence of Microsoft.
I HAVE read Microserfs... a number of times actually. It seems as if you have not. Either that, or it went totally over your head.
The whole POINT of Microserfs was that the protagonists were absolutely miserable losers, unfulfilled and anti-social with no lives (and not to mention: perpetually cold and wet)...
Saying that Microserfs "captures the essence of Microsoft" is not AT ALL an endorsement of the place. Just makes it more likely that I'll avoid the place like the plague, it does.
Then again, you could just be trolling. I've mostly quit paying attention to such matters.
cya,
john
Imagine all the people...
"I got boring projects which I found it difficult to get motivated for, and which focused more on exactly the things in which I had little experience, rather than on one of my strengths. And I got seriously slammed when I made mistakes stemming from my lack of experience, thus further reducing my motivation. "
Instead of constantly playing to your strengths, I'd expect any mentor worth of the title to try to shore up your weaknesses.
It sounds like you did poorly on your assignment and, rather than looking to improve your skills, felt bad about it and wallowed in self pity.
Having more women around probably wouldn't have done anything to help that. If you're not willing to do things to improve your weaknesses (whatever they are) yet expect constant praise and adoration, don't be surprised when people don't want to work with you.
A Human Right
I'm a student. I've been actively recruited by MS. Was I drooling when I got my first email? No. I was having a difficult time coming to terms with it.
You see, I, unlike some people, actually act upon what I believe in. I believe that Linux is the future. I believe that MS has bad policies and intentions.
So I did what I thought best: turned the offer down. Perhaps I was a bit rough around the edges on my reply (probably burned a bridge or two), but I did what I thought was best. I ask that anyone who truly believes Linux is superior to do the same with any recruitment offers.... well, I suppose you could turn it down a bit more politely.
IWARS.
People, in general, disappoint me. Politicians even more so.
"m$ is evil and the people who work there are ignorant whores" and "everything m$ does is stolen from someone else" are among the beatiful pieces of FUD spread by the fine folks who advocate open source/free software. If your enemy looks stupid, it always makes you look good. Or at least that's how the theory goes, I guess.
But do share, if you obviously know so much about how Microsoft works on the inside. You must be a fountain of knowledge waiting to spring on the unsuspecting and undeserving Slashdot crowd. Tell us "how it is".
"What I *really* hate is the dichotomy of the usual requirement of a bachelor's degree (in CS usually) for work as a sysadmin in a decent org/compnay but the complete irrelevance of everything in college for the actual job."
... he asked a serious question, I'm giving a serious response. Nothing against those who can't/choose not to attend some form of college, it happened to be the correct path for me. To each his own.)
... you name it). The college I attend requires 3 Co-Op's before graduation, and they don't make exceptions, even in this 'shit job market'. Another stipulation of my major is they MUST be paid (the fundamental difference between the term Internship and Co-Op, the latter is paid.)
:)
In my personal experience, recruiters, managers, and co-workers have said that a college degree is highly desireable, as it ensures that a person has the aptitude to learn. The idea of getting a college degree, sort of transcends the tangible piece of paper you receive 4 or 5 years later. What I mean by this, is that most people learn MORE than just the classes they sit through, be it by group interaction, professors, or even trips to Canada, Vegas, whatever. I've been told that a college degree completes a person in ways that self study + high school degree can't. Diversity and 'well-roundedness' are things that companies emphasize, heavily. Massive amounts of technical knowledge, certifications, aren't frowned upon by all means, but it won't set you apart from others. Nothing is a guarantee, but companies probably feel more comfortable taking a shot on someone who can contribute both technically and non-technically in all experiences and aspects of life to corporate culture.
(This isn't intended to be a flame/troll
"I would like to hear from *anyone* who's had a real IT internship
I'm just frustrated that college and internships are so finely focused on the programmer, there's almost nothing for a junior sysadmin with his RHCE looking to learn a few things before being thrusted into a shit job market."
I'm a 4th year Information Technology student at RIT that has had several internships, at companies with sizes ranging from small to massive (think 60,000+). Again, these positions ranged from desktop support to building Sun E250's for production accounting servers. On the networking side I helped implement global VPN structure (Routers, switches, firewall's
I landed these jobs, by researching companies that interested me both locally and 3000 miles away. I tailored my resume on a company/job basis and clearly indicated how my 'skills' paralleled what it was I wanted to do. This seems blatantly fundamental, but this is where a lot of people mess up. I was also very aggressive in making and keeping human contact with whoever I came in contact with. This got me 2 out the 4 Co-op's with companies that didn't even have internship/co-op programs. I contacted them and literally 'socially engineered' my way into an interview. I've had a bad experience and several great ones. Finding a full time job, at this point will not be difficult, as I have several offers on the table.
What it boils down to is knowing what you want to do. Using monster and hotjobs, is a complete waste of time (especially for a co-op). I used them to simply get names of companies geographically not in my region. If you don't have a lot of experience, I would recommend starting at a smaller company, and working up to a larger one. You can literally watch the levels of productivity / bullshit corporate politics shift.
You either sink or swim....
Fluffer.
They're the guys who get the porn acteresses 'ready' for their next scene. Yeah, and they get paid too.
Just watch out for diseases, mate.
If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
But i think tah the current MS corporate culture will actualy bode well foe MS in global market. Currently, peopel from the nations you mentioned as real competitors for MS are grossly underpaid and over worked if you compare it to US standards.
MS only route to staying ahead in the international market is to do a HSBC. Where you start employing local peopel 'localise' your software. As such, with MS's image as an employer that will take care of you, you are more likely to leave whoever you work for to work for MS, allowing MS to skim off the best.
Hell, with my US$1.3/hr wage here in Asia, I'd jump at the chance to work for a company that will actualy feed me lunch on the lunch alone. Let's not even get into the rest of the perks.
Sometimes I wish I was a plumber, then I'd know how to deal with other people's shit.