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The Internship That Students Drool Over
selan writes "The Baltimore Sun has a feature on Microsoft's internship program and why it is so popular with college students. Not only are interns paid, but they also receive the same perks as other Microsoft employees. At the end of the summer they are treated to a catered barbecue at Bill Gates's house and have a good shot at a full time job after graduation. You do not know the power of the Dark Side."
I'd give it all up just to score a FP.
Sorry if it's a stupid question but I would have thought most internships are paid - at some level or another.
Or have I got the wrong view of this completely?
Matt Thompson - Actuality - Insert product here.
I have a good friend who interned an MS. He had a good experience, and was offered a job when he graduated. They pay interns very well, but they are expected to pull 55+ work weeks, and have no weekends. If you can get past the stigma of working for the Dark Side, it's a great opprotunity...
(Dell Guy Voice)
Dude, you're working in Hell!
Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.
more like an Intergration into the borg mother ship ;)
moo
I propose that we create our own intern positions (special sourceforge accounts maybe?), and at the end of the year they are all treated to a barbecue by Linus!
Actually I'm half serious. Perhaps we really should be taking on interns; it strengthens both persons involved in the relation and open source in general.
My wife worked at Microsoft for a couple of years, and they are a GREAT employer. In terms of corporate culture they really rock.
Their raises are always above average, their stock options used to rock (the stock has flatlined for the past 2 years, but before that it went up something like 50-75% ever year).
They have volleyball courts, stand-up video games in almost every hallway, pizza parties, great hardware to play with, great buildings, nice walking/jogging paths right near campus.
And everyone there LOVES Microsoft. They love being part of an org that's in the forefront of technology.
It's pretty amazing to see.
Anyone who hasn't should read Microserfs. While it may not be based on a true life story, it definitely captures the essence of Microsoft.
well.. i worked on open source in college.. $11 an hour... But I can sleep at night :P
...I don't see the problem. If it's secure paid work in these times, who cares? Hell, i'd do it.
"Oh no, a company is going to great lengths to make itself appear enticing to prospective employees".
Let me break it to you: These are hard times we are living in. A job is just a job. You earn your shit from 9-5 and get out of there, it's what you do to pay the bills so that you don't sit at home twiddling your knob all day bored out of your skull, so that you can afford a roof, to eat, and buy funky cool things.
Feel that power? That's mah MOUSING FINGER
One of the offices, for instance, has a mountain scene painted on the wall. Another has red walls and a disco ball.
Disco ball? Please don't tell me that's one of the DISCO developers...
"I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy"
Imagine that... a well paid internship with one of the world's largest companies, lots of perks, a pretty good chance of a permanent position with said megacorp, great perks, AND a catered lunch?
Yeah, I wouldn't take that position. That would be fucking stupid.
-- Minds are like parachutes... they work best when open.
Considering what they make their customers sign for a *tiny* bit of insider information, I can't imagine what they'd make an insider sign. And what happens to 55 to 70 percent of interns that don't get hired?
I'm not sure I'd like to see "Interned for Microsoft" on a resume...it probably wouldn't be worth the legal hassle.
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
You know its not a bad job to work at Micro$oft, they are big and they are the leader on the desktop and has been so for a long time. I wouldnt myself like the idea to be working for them, but they got alot of brigt people, and I bet it can be real fun to work with those people. I do prefere that I can use a Linux desktop and program Java running on Unix boxes.. But thats maybe not for everyone.
The original article really doesn't tell us a lot that we don't already know. It seems to be there to plug Microsoft and their internship program.
On the other hand, an interesting point is bought up about smaller companies not being able to afford internships in periods of economic downturn. Does this mean that Microsoft, who are still recruiting strongly as ever, have an even better chance of picking up the cream of the crop? Of course... It makes perfect business sense, doesn't it? What I'd like to hear about are other, smaller companies and their recruiting schemes.
Not only does Microsoft fly you out to Seattle/Redmond for the 2nd round interviews (all expenses paid), they also give you an extra day to tour the city. Which is very nice of them.
Each interview tends to last 1 hour, like Rafi said and questions vary between positions. For Program Managers (PMs) questions are more scenario based, for Software Design Engineers (SDEs) the questions are almost all programming and algorithm questions. Most questions do not tend to have the "right" answers but the interviewers are looking at how the candidates think.
The Internship
Once an offer is accepted by the intern, MS takes care of all the traveling details. From the plane ticket, to the apartment, to the subsidized car rental (I'll talk about this more later), to shipping your computer and stuff to Redmond. Perhaps the most interesting perk is that MS will help you rent a car. Normally, a driver has to be at least 25 years old to rent a car, but with MS interns as young as 18 are able to rent cars. This eventually leads to many accidents a year, the costs of which are all covered by MS. :)
Interns and recruiters also team up to sponsor lots of activities to keep the geeks happy. Activities range from a Puzzle Day, a full day of team-based puzzle solving, to a scavenger hunt through Seattle, to a ski trip to Whistler (only a 3-4hr drive). Other perks also includ free membership to the posh Pro Club gym and a corporate card that offers special discounts to all the sights and attractions across the Pudget Sound area.
Personally, I had a great time as an intern at MS and would do it again in a hard beat. The only complaint I had was male intern to female intern ratio.
I interned at Microsoft up in Canada for high school, then they invited me back when I was in University. I got a job working for one of Microsoft's partners part-time while I was attending school, and during summer.
It was an amazing place to work, and I'd say as many as 20% of the employees there were interns (In MSFT Canada HQ).
The everyday perks were incredible, free drinks, 1/2 subsidized lunch room, laptop, iPAQ, yearly budget to purchase anything you want (that will help the company)... It was really amazing.
..... .. . what about: if you can't beat 'em; join 'em ?? I'm a hardcore slackware kind of guy and spent my last two years of university (honours comp. sci.) without ever touching a windows box, but I'd go work for them, in a heartbeat.....
Oh god, that woman is John Romero!
There's more info about the entire interview process and the positions on their MS College Website: http://www.microsoft.com
Well, we do now!
Karma: T-rexcellent.
well, i'm not going to remember all of this well, so if someone could help me on this.
if you read "no logo", naomi spends quite a bit of time on microsoft's hiring and employee practices.
1. microsoft outsources a lot of it's employment to "temp" firms like manpower. this allows them to "hire" full time employees, who are never really given a contract. thus they don't have to give them any benefits, nor do they have a guaranteed job (so they're easier to fire). i _think_ i remember that it was said that microsoft only has about half of the people working for them on their payroll.
(1.5). i think i remember reading that "real" employees have different colored shirts than "temp" employees.
2. they don't hire they're internal postal mail staff, pitney bowes runs it.
3. capitalism creates a market, which allows us to purchase items without having to think about the process by which these items came to the market, as we are then only concerned with value. this allows for violations of human rights, destruction of the rain forest, and hairs in our soup.
help out.
I've got a stack of about 40 rejections sitting in my drawer right now, they are in response to about 160 resumes I've sent out in the last 5 weeks alone. An internship with Microsoft would be a great opportunity, regardless of the stigma. At this point I'm just looking for the internship, regardless of where and who.
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
At Michigan, just about every minority computer engineering student was a Microsoft intern. Yet when I went out to interview for a full-time job there was not a single minority student out there. Microsoft uses their internship program to boost their diversity numbers.
...What are Mafia internships like?
Do you get all the fine Italian food you can eat? Do you get to drive a fancy black limo around? Do you get to cap youse friends who don' show youse no respect?
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
"You do not know the power of the Dark Side".
Grow up, child! Even if it was sarcastic or in a wicked way ment to be 'funny', it's too pathetic for words. Microsoft is like any other company which wants to make money. Employees who work at Microsoft, do that because they get paid for what they do there, like people at Sun or IBM (or Red Hat).
Just because MS mistreats some of its customers, doesn't mean the individual employee there is a bad person, or worse: stupid, because he felt for the 'power of the dark side'. For once, keep marketingpoop and real life separated.
You should read "Proudly serving my corporate masters" by Adam Barr ( I believe he even is a slashdotter). Then you will understand that interns at Microsoft are not picked up at MacDonalds, but recruited at the finest universities and should pass a tough selection program. No wonder as a company they are treated as normal human beings: the best people know they are the best and will only work for... the best, ('best' can be different for a lot of people) so Microsoft will do everything they can to get them on board (like IBM, Sun and other companies will do too).
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
I thought the White House was the obvious answer to the question...
I LOVED working there, despite the fact I knew previously about their business practices, they were the only company to accept me for an internship that summer (Apple, IBM, and a whole bunch of other companies said "no" and I don't know why). Well, as said before they treat you really well, and it's one of the best college experiences I had in a long time, now I just need to get a job with them! Although, now I have the urge to work for Apple for the summer, and I seriously think that working for them would damage my chances of working for any of the other, "rival" companies.
Somebody has to do it! Better them than I. I still have my soul and a life :))
-- Many men would appreciate a woman's mind more if they could fondle it
...and I apologize if this has been answered ad nauseam, but maybe any MS employees out there can answer: does Microsoft prohibit you from working on open source projects on your own time, even if they aren't related to the project you are currently doing at MS (eg. Windows developer working on the gimp or something)?
Sorry bout the coward bit, didn't want to whore or "taint" my excellent karma by admitting where I work...
I work at MS and have an intern who works for me. The interns get a great deal. Yes, they work hard, but most of them enjoy it and would gladly work harder if asked - I often have to tell my guy "go home, it'll still be there tomorrow".
They are treated with the same respect as a full time employee (albeit a junior one), given lots of responsbility (managed appropriately, that's just good management) and all in all get a great deal.
As a manager, I get a great deal. I get someone to do stuff which for me is crappy, but by crappy I don't mean fetch coffee, I mean stuff like handle client management for incoming bug reports (I work for an internal tools group), etc., fix simple bugs, etc.
And the company gets a great deal - they get to hire the best & brightest and know exactly what they are getting. Everyone wins.
(and before some wise guy says "you must be lying, it's not summer", there are internships outside redmond which operate on different schedules...)
... barbecued at Bill Gates's house.
Never underestimate the appetite of the Dark Side !
A slashdotting - you get the stick first and then the carrot !
I was an MS Intern several years ago. (And was a MacPhile and OSS proponent the whole time.) It was probably the single best work experience I've ever had. And that's even after I mention that my boss and I clashed at every turn and I ultimately got a "no hire" recommendation, pretty much blacklisting me from ever working there again. You can hate the way they do business, or their FUD marketing or whatever you want, but at the end of the day, working there is like being an endowed researcher at the coolest, most well-funded university on earth, where they only let in the uber-smart. It was easily the highest concentration of smart people I've ever had the pleasure of being around. If someone had handed me a crystal ball and told me the shit the economy was about to become I would have kissed some serious ass and made sure I got an offer there.
This too shall pass.
I'm doing my third internship this summer. Take out the names Gates and Microsoft, and all of the internships I've done are identical in "perks". Of course they treat interns well. Internships are only given to the students that companies are trying to "woo". I've gotten treated so well during internships, it almost seems like working might be a fun thing to do.
My best friend from college interned for a summer with Microsoft. I went out to visit him, and I have to admit that it would be hard to turn down an offer. They set you up with an apartment, pay you well, give you lots of nice perks, etc. Not to mention that (no matter what your feelings about Microsoft) the campus and the buildings are absolutely gourgeous, both inside and out. Nobody in a cube, everyone gets an office (that you usually share, but still). Probably the most interesting part was walking through a parking ramp. I don't think I've ever seen so many Jaguars, BMWs, and Mercedes in one spot in my life. It looked like a luxury car dealership.
But alas, they expect the interns to work like dogs to earn all of these perks. My friend didn't end up going back full time because he decided life is too short to donate it to a large corporation.
I just spoke to yet -another- person who's
volunteering, with an eye to getting a good
job later, in a State Gov't job.
What next? Will people in S Australia have
to PAY to work FREE in gov't offices?
Unlike SA, I just heard that a Melb. Uni
has got a very attractive scholarship
program to attract Australia's best,
from around the continent: Tuition-free,
Free flights home for breaks, a small
pile of cash for living expenses, et al.
(About what a grad student might expect,
but it's for undergrad's & they don't
have to teach or do research in early
years)
And now I wonder why I didn't take the offer. During my freshman year at college, I went to 2 MS intership recruitment seminars that were hosted at the college. Yes, it's Microsoft. Yes, they're Evil (TM). But at $25/hr as an intern?!?! Fuck, I wish I got that now as a fulltime employee. Granted that was all before the dot-bombs, and it looked like I could work wherever I wanted, so I declined. Boy I wish I took the summer off to do the program...
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.
>They love being part of an org that's in the forefront of technology.
They love being part of a cult that's deluded into thinking it's in the forefront of technology.
According to a Sunday Times report the other day, Microsoft is the "best" UK employer. Scary quote from the article:
;-).
"We aren't the Moonies, but it is like a family. I met my wife, Moira, at work and when we got married the canteen even offered to bake our cake!"
I expect their children will automatically be indentured at the age of 16
And ten years later at the next high school reunion, everyone will feel sorry for you since and your class mates (while poorer) had time to live their life (have family, friends, and kids) while you worked all your free time away at Microsoft.
Feel sorry for you?? Clearly you haven't been to your ten year school reunion.
They are the best ego trip ever for us geeks!
Turns out that the bimmer you are driving, which is non-distinct among the Benz kompressors and Porsche's carrera in your company parking lot is the best car of those in your class. It also turns out that you are making the most money. You are wearing the nicest suit and all the chicks that use to shun you drool over you. Odds are that you'll get some by the end of the night.
ymmv, asda.
> At the end of the summer they are treated to a catered barbecue at Bill Gates's house and have a good shot at a full time job after graduation
flipping burgers at the barbecue
Don't forget that Microsoft is one of the few companies that you will millionaire secretaries. If their secretaries are millionaires, it would only be logical that inters are not too far behind them. Maybe not millionaires, but the fact that you get to live off Microsoft for the duration of your time there and learn some cool stuff is not half bad. Not to mention the perks that Microsoft is still somewhat 'Bell Atlantic-esque' where they definitely hire really gorgeous secretaries. Bottom line: you get experience + monay + stare at hot chicks all day.
Philip Su, a University of Maryland alumnus, interned at Microsoft when he was in college and went back to work there. Su is now a lead developer on Microsoft's Tablet PC team.
"Microsoft has such a unique atmosphere," he said, "that once you're there and it clicks with you, that's the only place you want to develop software."
Scary...
Did you ever notice that *nix doesn't even cover Linux?
I know of very few disgruntled M$ employees. If anything, M$ raises the bar for other employers, at least in the areas where M$ has a physical presence. In this day and age of HB1 sweatshops and the Dilbert Academy of Mangement, we could use a few more employers like this.
But... Their growth rate has always required a steady flow of interns and recruits who become regular employees. We'll see what happens then the growth curve flattens out and they don't need more people. And then we'll see what happens when M$ actually begins to shrink. When you want to attract more people, you give them nice benefits and competitive salaries. When you want to downsize without handing out pink slips, the process runs in reverse. Nowhere is this easier to see than in the dot-com boom and subsequent meltdown.
M$ has already indicated that it's prices will be reduced to compete with open source; that lost revenue has to come from somewhere. The interns will "get it" first, then consultants, then regular employees.
I have a friend who interned with Linux. He had all the free beer he could download, but the company went chapter 11 before his internship was finished. They didnt pay anything (the OS is free, after all), but they are expected to contribute while they arent playing Quake. If you can get past the stigma of living with your parents, its a great opportunity...
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
and I would be like...cool you will pay me and I get a barbacue at your 40-million dollor house...
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
I went to Seattle to interview with Mircosoft in 1998. Most of my interview process consisted of games and puzzles -- so get yourself a stack of mind puzzle books, and read them. Then, during the interview, instead of shouting out the answer immediately, pretend to think for about 30 seconds, while contorting your face. Shout out Eureka!, and give the answer. It worked for me; they made me an offer a few weeks later. They didn't give me much time to decide, which helped contribute to me turning them down, but I digress...
at any rate, I flew in, rented myself a Mazda 626 convertible, and immediately went to the Kingdome. The Mariners now play baseball elsewhere, but I digress again.
I bought a $75 ticket for the game, about five $5 beers, and plenty of food. I got reciepts for all of it, and included it in my expense report. Sure, $110 is nothing for Microsoft, but it sure was fun to watch a game in style on their dime.
In short, if you go to Seattle on an interview, treat yourself well, and review mental exercise books. Go do some things, and expense them. They'll fork over the loot. Pretend to figure out the answers to their questions on the fly, even if you already knew the answer.
After all of this, turn them down -- for you know that, in the overall scheme of things, it just isn't worth it.
Support a few technologists in Washington.
One of the guys is *really* keen to impress, and nattered away all through the meal 'Bill, did you know...' etc. Eventually, Bill looks at him, drops his fork and says: 'Get out of my fucking house. You're fired.'
Same guy also said that working MS was not all milk and honey; there was a constant fear of Bill, who would stalk the campus two hours a day looking for people 'wasting his money'. Apparently the flip side is his wife, who smoothes everying over, apologises and rehires people!
Hey now, I'm going to work for them this summer. I happen to think the way things work is great. I mean, you don't get an hourly salary (you get a monthly one), but you're sure to learn a lot. Plus if you're really stressed out you can walk down the hall and play pool or x-box. I get a lot of crap for going to work for them, but it's definitely going to be worth it. Besides, I look for jobs for the learning experience, not the money.
A job at MS is the holy grail of co-op positions. The MS-resume-box is always overflowing. People have to put their resumes on the floor beside the box. What it boils down to is that whether or not you're offered a job or a return term, if you have MS on your resume you can write your own ticket. They hire only the best and brightest, and other companies know this. I have friends who have gone to work for MS for a term, and on subsequent terms they're picking and choosing between offers from all around the world. Of course there's always the substantial pay and benefits if that line of reasoning doesn't float your boat, and apparently they treat students REALLY well compared to a lot of places. Basically, if MS says "come to work for us", it's never a question of whether you want to...you WANT TO.
:)!
I myself NEVER use MS products unless I have to. I much prefer open source, both from a user and developer perspective. However, were I offered a job at redmond I wouldn't think twice about accepting. Hell...just use MS on your resume to get in with IBM (it's been done many times before
Paying workers as they learn is a relatively new phenomenon, and a direct result of the industrial revolution.
Back in the Olden Days, you often DID have to buy your way into an apprenticeship position where you could learn the trade of your choice. And then you might not get paid beyond room and board til you made journeyman status.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
I keep finding that I write a piece of code, and although it works, it would be so much nicer to have done it differently. Trouble is, it works. Company resources (i.e. me) are so much better spent fixing things that don't work at all.
My own code, I get to redo as many times as I want. This does tend to make it better, but it takes longer to produce. The same no doubt applies to open source. There's no real problem caused if people do reinvent the wheel.
Now, politically I'm not a big fan of Microsoft; but some people are I suppose, and I figure that this isn't a philosophy question. I'll put that aside for the moment. Also, I'd probably gladly work there if I were still into looking for a tech job (not that they'd let me in, the competition sounds pretty tight). It sounds like a pretty sweet gig.
:).
From a stability and performance standpoint on the desktop yes, newer versions of Windows are pretty damn good. I haven't had a BSOD that I couldn't trace back to a faulty device driver or bad hardware since before I started using NT4. Mozilla crashes with about the same frequency of IE (neither of which crashes very much). OpenOffice.org crashes a lot more than any version of office after Office95.
At the same time, from a security standpoint things are as bad as ever. Of all the machines on my network here, the only ones that have ever been compromised are the Windows boxes. All of them, at one point or another. I constantly worry about not exposing them to the outside world. I hit Windows Update at least once a week and my roommates usually do the same. In this regard we're much more careful than most Windows users, and we have the additional measure of hiding behind an OpenBSD NAT box. I'm at the point where I won't store any vital or private data on it.
I don't hate the Windows UI, though I'm much more comfortable in a UNIX environment. I like having a ton of high quality commercial software ready for me to install without jumping through a dozen hoops trying to get it working in Wine or having to resort to VMware. I like that all the games I want to play pretty much just work. In a lot of ways Windows is just fine, and in even more ways it's better than the free UNIX desktop alternatives (though the gap is slowly narrowing). What I can't stand is the fact that it's almost impossible for me to put any sort of trust in a box that runs Windows, no matter what I do.
Oh, and on the server it's just not even fucking close. I think pretty much everyone acknowledges that at this point, though.
You make a good point about the MacOS. Before OSX it was as bad as Windows95 on its worst day. Mac people are zealots that make the most rabid Linux supporters look like level-headed individuals, though, so they'd never complain within earshot of outsiders. Of course now they've got a desktop OS that the rest of the world wishes they had. Good for them. I'll rejoin them when I get a new job and can afford... things... again
Game... blouses.
I have interned a few times at Microsoft as a developer.
First, the pay is great as everyone else said. And you get a rental car for the term.
Workwise: it's a flip of a coin whether you get an interesting group with a cool project or a bland group that doesn't know what to do with you. The recruitors (Microsoft's biggest fuckups) will try to assure you otherwise, but it's not true.
The people at Microsoft are generally helpful. However, the biggest thing to keep in mind is that the only way to get ahead in Microsoft is to be much better than those around you. It doesn't matter if you're all geniuses in a group. You still have to beat them. So how do people do that? They give up their lives. 60 hour weeks are the norm for most developers I worked with, even as they go up the ranks. So they give up valuable time with their family to progress their career.
Interns do about the same amount of work, with most working at least 50 hours, and many 60 hours or more. Hang out with a bunch of Microsoft interns, and you'll notice that all they do is bitch about work. No big surprise there.
For full time, Microsoft snares new hires with a nice starting salary. The salary is high to begin with, but moves very slowly. Of course, now everyone knows that their stock options are useless, and you're never going to become a millionare again from them.
All in all, if you can get it it's a good experience, to see the pros AND cons of working at this unique company. I suggest going there for an internship, but don't sell your life and go there fulltime.
If I'm ignorant, please enlighten me with your vast knowledge! Explain to me how software from MS is rock solid and filled with imaginative features, there were not stolen from someone else. Please, I await your answer.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
I have been a Microsoft intern the past two summers. I've also accepted a full time position with Microsoft once I graduate from college.
:). It's a slight ego booster.
:)
Some interns have much better experiences than others. I would say a vast majority have a great time, both professionally and socially. I am one of them, although I know some that didn't have a good time at all.
Work is work as an intern. You're expected to gear up fairly quickly, but not so as to stress you out. You *are* an intern - Microsoft is not going to give you a job that is 100% mission critical. However, as an intern, you *can* make significant contribution to your group's products (You can find my name in the Xbox credits
I saw a post that said you're expected to pull 55+ hour weeks. This isn't true. You are required to complete your assignments. If that means you need to work your ass off, and you want a good review, then that's what you have to do. If you're an awesome coder and can get it done in 20 hours, good for you. Go drink the rest of the time
Corporate culture is great. Everyone is supportive about things like personal time, social lives, time off, etc. Morale is really high at Microsoft. Through the roof. The company just treats you right in many different ways.
Being a Microsoft intern was the first time I had a consistent, fulfilling social life too. Pretty much every weekend was a party and having fun around Seattle.
The party at Bill's house is getting to be a bit cliche. I suspect Bill doesn't really want to do it anymore, but he's expected to now. There are so many interns at MS that there are several parties over the course of a week.
On the other hand, it's pretty damn sweet to get to see the inside of Bill's house.
You should never take life too seriously - You'll never get out of it alive.
Prior to 2001.
This tech company just happens to still be profitable.
paintball
At the same time, from a security standpoint things are as bad as ever. Of all the machines on my network here, the only ones that have ever been compromised are the Windows boxes.
I agree that this is the case. Yet, a sensible explanation of why this is so is that more people write Windows exploits than Unix. Hence more flaws are found. The old adage of OSS is: debugging is fungible. Well so is cracking. Let's call that Alomex Law "cracking is fungible", as a consequence the most popular platform will be the most cracked. In fact as Linux continues to gain ground we'll see an increase in exploits (side note: about a year ago all our Red Hat boxes were cracked here).
In simple terms, if my goal as evil-cracker is to maximize disruption why would I spend hours pouring BeOS code that would give me access to four computers, when I can build upon readily available cracking utilities that can give me access to 90% of the world's computers?
...And, the bastards are giving them RIBS and POTATO SALAD! Oh, the humanity! Oh, the humanity... Poor little Johnny, we barely knew ye...
Farewell! It's been a fine buncha years!
while it is easy to jump on the young kids jumping to microsoft even though the company represents what is wrong with american business to so many of us, maybe it aint such a bad thing. consider that as time progresses these kids will rise through the ranks of microsoft corp to a position of power, and hopefully a few of them will retain the ideals of open-source etc. change from within could then occur. it would be even more likely to happen if the idealistic geeks would carpet bomb the shit out of microsoft by applying for these internships, employment in droves. at least one of them, if not more, is bound to make it past the scrutinizing interviews and maintain ones integrity while still reaching a position of power. it would be like a spy movie or something. anyone want to infiltrate the mysterious lair of scorpio. be careful not to become whom you pretend to be.
i would apply, but im a mathematician and dont know much about computers.
philanthropists need to realize there is a need for philanthropy in the first place
Yup, I was one of them. I landed an internship for the giant in the summer of 2000. Here's my take on what happened:
;)
The Interviews: One phone interview with what I later learned was an HR rep took about 90 minutes. She mostly asked generic thinking questions, encouraging me to think aloud. Stuff like "If you could build your own movie theatre, what would it be like?" A couple of days later, I heard from an actual recruiter who said they'd like to interview me in person. At many of the larger schools, a Microsoft interviewing team will actually visit the campus, but in this case, they flew me up to Redmond. Got a sweet 4 day trip - one day to fly up, one day to interview, one day to hang in Seattle, and flew back on the last day. I will have to say that the interview day was without doubt the most grueling day of my entire life. I was directed to show up at campus at about 8:30 AM. Since I had been provided a rental car and hotel room about 3 minutes away, this wasn't a problem. I spent the first interview with another HR recruiter (Brian Schneider actually, who was quoted in the article). He mostly prepped me for the day, telling me to always remember who the audience was for anything I spoke about and to not worry about getting the right answer, just to talk through what I was thinking. I was then shuttled over another building, where the real interview process goes like this. You sit in the lobby, and someone comes out from the back. They take you back to their actual office and spend 45 minutes to an hour with you. After their questions, they lead you back to the lobby. There's two choices after that. If you did well, another employee will come and interview you. If you didn't, the next person to come out will call a shuttle for you back to the HR building, and your day is over. I wasn't that lucky. What they don't tell is that after every interview, the interviewer writes up a short spiel about you and passes the email thread along to your next interviewer. I spent the entire day in 5 interviews. They literally picked my brain to pieces. The only tough development question I was asked was how I would reverse a linked list and I wrote out some pseudo-code. (I wasn't, however, applying for a 'grunt' programmer position, although I do like to code.) The vast majority of the questions were "how you think" questions: how I would design an alarm clock with an unlimited budget, how elevator controls should work, justify my programming of a TV with 5 buttons. Also several "puzzle" questions which I usually had to think about but got an acceptable if not expected answer in the end. Everything was very laid back - the campus dress code is wear something, and everyone has carte blanch over how they decorate their office. I made it home after 6PM and pretty much just curled up in a ball and slept. They make it a point to get back to you in a week, and when they did, I was shocked at the salary. Let me just say that the article cuts the line a little low. (Although not everyone makes the same amount - you do better in a product group with an app that ships and makes money like Office or Windows, than you do in a business group that just manages internal affairs like payroll databases.)
The Summer: I had a blast. Every intern gets assigned a "mentor" who is more of a guide than a boss. You usually take a bit of his/her work and it actually gets assigned to YOU. Whatever decision YOU make is what stands. It's cool cause you can actually make a difference. Of course everything is still subject to peer review but I can recall some decisions I made. [Our product never actually shipped although some reincarnation of it may appear in the future...] The first day I showed up I had an actual office with my nameplate already on it and a computer hooked up and ready to go. I was free to do what I want, really. And contrary to the article, you work your own hours. Literally. I was provided subsidized housing and a subsidized rental car, as well as a pass card that would let me into any building on campus 24 hours a day 365 days a year. As long as I showed up for any meetings I was a part of, I could work as many or as few hours a day/week as I wanted. Still had to get the work done of course, and I did work some *long* weeks, especially when bug or demo deadlines were coming up. They also *threw* money at me. Every time I turned around, someone was dropping a "perk" off at my office... a designer fleece... a picnic backpack... cool stuff you actually use and not worthless corporate "gifts." Oh, and all the drinks are free all the time to all employees. The many kitchens are all constantly stocked with both a Pepsi and Coke fridge.
The Perks: We had free use of the buildings anytime. Quite a few times we hauled a DVD player down to a "conference room" (think small movie theatre size, not nonproductive-meeting-room size) and set it up on the giant projection screen for a movie night. I never got one peep from security, even when playing laser tag across the corporate campus from 11PM - 2AM with half a dozen other interns. Basically if you work there, have it your way. You have many of the same perks as full-timers as an intern. Free bus rides all over the city. This MS "benefit" card that got us and guests free or heavily discounted admittance to TONS of Seattle attractions. The MS shuttle system is designed to get employees to and from the separate buildings but they also make scheduled trips to various outlying areas. It's all free. Oh, and one of the best parts is the MS Company Store. Yes, every version of every software product MS has ever made is freely available on the corporate LAN, most of the time with those @$#& CD-keys disabled. But if you'd like a boxed copy with a real CD and that pamplet that passes as a manual these days, the company store has all current products at a heavy discount. Books and hardware are usually 50% off retail (I picked up quite a few of the Intellimouse Explorers) and software is 90 to 95% OFF retail. That means copies of Windows were $20-25, and full versions of Office were only slightly more. Felt good be legit for once.
The Barbecue: Yup, we went to Bill's. Met him, Melinda, and even the kids Jennifer and Rory. Played on their private beach. Swung on the swing set. Ate until we were gorged. Pretty much just hung out for the evening. The classic moment was when I had loaded my plate up (it's a buffet) and was walking back to my seat. A waitress passed by with a mouth-watering plate of the best looking fruit-topped cheese cake I'd ever seen. I immediately swung around, saying "I'm gonna make sure and get me a piece of that before it runs out!" The server just turned around, smiled, and said "Oh, don't worry, we never run out of anything." I was shocked but it turned out to be true. When I went to the dessert table later there was still plenty of everything.
The Secret: All in all, the intern program is lucrative so as to benefit MS, not you. An internship for them is basically an extended interview. They like to give internships to those who are one summer away from graduation. That way, if you do well over your three months, they can snap you up right after graduation. If you don't, well, they only lost 3 months worth of salary on you. It's all about finding the top talent.
I don't know why people are slamming college students that are interns at Microsoft.
First off, any job in this economy is a good job. The dot com boom is over and so are the 100K jobs where a pulse was the only requirement.
Second, when you have a big company like MS on your resume, the job market opens up a lot more, even in bad times. I worked at the "Evil Northwest Book, CD's and More company" and don't regret it one bit. After leaving that company I had a job in 6 weeks that paid 15K more a year. Having that those kinds of companies on the resume helps a lot. You can call me a whore, but you'll do it from the unemployment office.
Three, MS treats it employees well. I know of very few companies that offer all of the benefts and salary that MS offers. When it comes down to it, work is only about three things; Pay, Benefits, and Intresting work. MS appears to provide all three.
Linux O Muerte!
inter-nerd?
While I can't speak from the female pov, I heard a good number of stories about ppl having just horrible internships and bad mentors. Unfortunatly I think some people just get the bad ones at MS. I'm sorry it didn't go better, or you didn't had a better group.
While neither of my internships were bad, the second was more enjoyable, the group just got along better and worked better I think.
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
In case you read replies, I should warn you not to take them personally.
The vast majority of the people here read a great comment, nod or shake their heads, and carry on without replying. I was about to do the same, until I read some of the other replies you got... Don't take the anonymous replies from a few cruel jerks with too much time on their hands as opinions representative of the rest of the people on the site. Your comment was a great one, and at least the moderators showed their appreciation.
"I will take the Ring," he said, "though I do not know the way."
Frankly, if you ship a bad product, middle and top management is ultimately to blame. That is not a free ticket to slacking off, but shipping bad code means that multiple layers of quality control has failed.
Stop the brainwash
Microsoft has always been one of the Fortune top rated copmanies to work for. Up there with Adobe, WalMart, Wegmans, and Pfizer.
(granted they did have an issue with being sued by the part time people because those people apparently felt that the contract that they agreed to and signed... was unfair - not sure what ever came of that - perhaps with the downturn in the economy those people realized that they were lucky for their jobs and shut the hell up)
I have 10 friends that I went to college with that interviewed with Microsoft, and now 5 of them work there (they all got offers, 3 of them didn't want to move, one of them opted for grad school, and the last thought he had a chance at Apple or something... he didn't last I heard). (I can remember one of the guys wore Tevas, a shirt he had painted in that had holes in it, and ragged cut offs to his Microsoft interview, while some others debated on suits or not - he wanted to make sure that they were only going by his brain... he got the offer... and turned it down to go to grad school)
The guys that work there love it. And in the tech world (I guess only outside of slashdot), seeing that you worked at Microsft actually has some tech cred to it - I know of 3 guys that I went to school with that went on to start their own companies and the MS name on their cv helped get their funding.
I know a guy that works in their computer game department, and I know a guy that works in their XBox game department (I think it is slightly funny that they are even different departments). They each think it is the coolest job on the planet, and I'm not sure I blame them.
I find it really amusing that "everyone" here thinks MS is so evil, when in reality, they are one of the best companies to work for - and perhaps are even doing some things right - as much as it hurts the people here to think.
It is human nature to strive to be at the top, and to some extent, to resent those that sit at the top. Were Apple or Linux to rise up and dethrone the current MS position, the same people here would start griping about the exact same issues that MS is going through because they are side effects of beinga successful company.
and in true slashdot mentality, I'm sure this will get modded troll
There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
anyone who is thinking about being an intern should watch the movie: Anti-Trust :)
Mmmm.... more ale...
Firings for attitude is stupid. If the guy can do the job he was hired for, leave him alone.
Or is it that he threatens you?
I grew up in Seattle and actually started working for Microsoft my Junior/Senior year of high school through their HS program. I then worked for the company for the three summers of my college years at the UW. All told I did 5 internships in 3 different divisions. In the end I decided not to work for Microsoft, opting for a smaller and highly profitable company in downtown Seattle.
:-)
I did however really enjoy my time at MS. It's a fun intern program. Microsoft knows how to party and for a college person it's an ideal situation.
However I concluded that my internships really didn't help me in the end. Also because I had been at the company so long Microsoft assumed I was garunteed to work for them after graduation. When I interviewed for FT my senior year recruiting did not listen to my desires. I was lied to about position availability and after battling with them for some time about various things when I showed up I was interviewing for a position in a group I had specifically requested not to work in. This is not unexpected though. If you give someone the perception that they have control over you they will often times abuse it.
Fortunatly I am happier now and am being given a level of responsibility MS would have never given me.
What I *really* hate is the dichotomy of the usual requirement of a bachelor's degree (in CS usually) for work as a sysadmin in a decent org/compnay but the complete irrelevance of everything in college for the actual job.
Internships are a good example
I would like to hear from *anyone* who's had a real IT internship, not a programming or project managing position. The closest I saw was my internship at IBM's Global Services Houston office where I was with the Infrastructure Group. They had to pull a few strings to get me in as well. And for what? While I was there, they didn't even let me *touch* a UNIX machine for anything remotely admin. They had me writing perl for Tivoli (the most god-awful overengineered system management product) and redesigning their internal web page.
I'm just frustrated that college and internships are so finely focused on the programmer, there's almost nothing for a junior sysadmin with his RHCE looking to learn a few things before being thrusted into a shit job market.
I'm graduated, and the best I could get was a local job in a podunk city in the bible belt admining a whopping 3 RH machines and windows boxes part time. And no, I can't move away to some tech-Mecca like VA,DC or Austin.
rrr
...they also receive the same perks as other Microsoft employees. At the end of the summer they are treated to a catered barbecue at Bill Gates's house...
What's the big deal? Linux interns receive the same benefits as Linux developers, and they get a fancy meal in a big house at the end of the summer. They just have to build the house first and then cook their own food.
Apple used to be much cooler, before they tanked.
Everything you mentioned, happened to me.
Now, after 13 years at Microsoft I am 40 and retired. I am older, wiser and RICHER than I was then, and I busted my ass to get here.
I look back on those free drinks and subsidized lunch room with great gratitude, because until I vested, that was where I got most of my meals. I got most of my exercise on the soccer field and at the Pro Club. I got most of my friendships and sexual conquests from Buildings 9 through 22.
Now, I get to do whatever the hell I want to do, like sit here in my pj's at almost 10 in the morning and look down at all the poor souls waiting to get across the 520 while I can hop in my SeaRay when ever I need to cross the lake.
It was worth every hard, long, fucked up minute I spent on campus because the rest of my days belong to me.
Well, I guess you and me have a different view of the world.
You see, I know how to enjoy myself without needing to be excessively rich. I have lots of great friends who I see very regularly, I live within a ten minute walk of the beach, I go hiking and biking most weekends. I don't work late or weekends. I often get up at 10am on weekdays, because I'm my own boss. And I don't need to be a millionaire to do any of that.
Personally I would not sacrifice thirteen years of the prime of my life for the just for the sake of money. If you think that makes me an idiot, so be it.
As a percentage, though, there are a lot more competent women out there than blokes - I have been asked stupid questions by loads more guys than gals, even when you take the smaller number of gals into account.
If you're going to flame, at least have the decency to log in, asshole...
oh brave new world, that has such people in it!
I have an advanced readers copy, and although the majority of it is dedicated to the interview questions that have taken many applicants for a ride, there is a good bit about how applicants are evaluated as they go from interview to interview.
(Maybe one of these days I'll bother to write a /. book review, but I'm much more interested in working out the puzzles!)
IBM's Extreme Blue internship program beats the sh*t out of any internship. 3 bright engg interns and one tolerable MBA intern developing new technology for a full summer. a lot of their new "on-demand" thingie has come out of that internship program.
charmer
I should not have called you an idiot. I apologize.
Thank you. Very gracious of you. Nice to see someone being civil on Slashdot for a change!
I remember from school that one of their draws was that they didn't have a minimum GPA requirement for internships (just an all day interview process that was notorious for being difficult and tiresome). A bunch of the poeple that I knew that weren't proud of their academic accomplishments tried out for internships there. A bunch of others did have high GPAs, I'm just saying that one of the things that attracted students was that they didn't require a minimum GPA
Are you trying to imply the Bill Gates is the "Dork Emperor".
I was an intern at MS last summer. I pulled ~45 hours a week. My manager said that he only cared that I got my work done. My recruiter and the other developers on my team said they were impressed that I had figured out how to balance work with a social life as an intern.
I decided at the beginning that I wanted to relax last summer, so I did. They don't require a strenuous work schedule, but they don't mind it, and interns usually try to improve their chances of getting hired by pulling one. My approach was to simply kick ass. Your friend probably should have tried that instead.
> they are a GREAT employer. In terms of corporate
...
...
> culture they really rock.
> And everyone there LOVES Microsoft.
> Anyone who hasn't should read Microserfs. While it may
> not be based on a true life story, it definitely captures the
> essence of Microsoft.
I HAVE read Microserfs... a number of times actually. It seems as if you have not. Either that, or it went totally over your head.
The whole POINT of Microserfs was that the protagonists were absolutely miserable losers, unfulfilled and anti-social with no lives (and not to mention: perpetually cold and wet)...
Saying that Microserfs "captures the essence of Microsoft" is not AT ALL an endorsement of the place. Just makes it more likely that I'll avoid the place like the plague, it does.
Then again, you could just be trolling. I've mostly quit paying attention to such matters.
cya,
john
Imagine all the people...
"I got boring projects which I found it difficult to get motivated for, and which focused more on exactly the things in which I had little experience, rather than on one of my strengths. And I got seriously slammed when I made mistakes stemming from my lack of experience, thus further reducing my motivation. "
Instead of constantly playing to your strengths, I'd expect any mentor worth of the title to try to shore up your weaknesses.
It sounds like you did poorly on your assignment and, rather than looking to improve your skills, felt bad about it and wallowed in self pity.
Having more women around probably wouldn't have done anything to help that. If you're not willing to do things to improve your weaknesses (whatever they are) yet expect constant praise and adoration, don't be surprised when people don't want to work with you.
A Human Right
I'm a student. I've been actively recruited by MS. Was I drooling when I got my first email? No. I was having a difficult time coming to terms with it.
You see, I, unlike some people, actually act upon what I believe in. I believe that Linux is the future. I believe that MS has bad policies and intentions.
So I did what I thought best: turned the offer down. Perhaps I was a bit rough around the edges on my reply (probably burned a bridge or two), but I did what I thought was best. I ask that anyone who truly believes Linux is superior to do the same with any recruitment offers.... well, I suppose you could turn it down a bit more politely.
IWARS.
People, in general, disappoint me. Politicians even more so.
"m$ is evil and the people who work there are ignorant whores" and "everything m$ does is stolen from someone else" are among the beatiful pieces of FUD spread by the fine folks who advocate open source/free software. If your enemy looks stupid, it always makes you look good. Or at least that's how the theory goes, I guess.
But do share, if you obviously know so much about how Microsoft works on the inside. You must be a fountain of knowledge waiting to spring on the unsuspecting and undeserving Slashdot crowd. Tell us "how it is".
at $4 per chicken, I can have as many BBQs as I want. Take that Bill Gates!
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
You mean they won't let you use your work time and work machine to produce software that they can't sell. Huh? God your right, microsoft is the dark side, I mean, I can't imagine a company that claims right to your intelectual property while you work there. Oh wait, ummm...every company I have ever worked for did that, because they wanted to make money.Companies that want to make money...how capitalistic and non American of them. Oh wait we are a capitalist country, and companies are supposed to want to make money, and I am supposed to work for them if they are paying me. Lone Wolf Hackers like yourself, should get a degree.
Anonymous Cowards - Oh God, How I hate you
Technically, most internships are paid, but only in a token sense -- maybe 8 bucks an hour. That wonn't even come close to supporting you in any major population center in America. That kind of money wouldn't even keep a Wall St. intern in neckties.
"Expensive" internships are one reason why rich kids still get the best jobs -- Wall St., Washington politics, Hollywood. Try living in NYC for a year, virtually unpaid, having to maintain a top notch wardrobe, being able to afford drinks and meals at the finest restaurants, all so you can enter and stay "in the swim." That's pretty tough for someone without an endless supply of family money, and with a mountain of debt from college.
The tech industry is *much* easier than others in this sense -- wearing Dockers is usually fine, and no one cares if you bring your lunch in a brown paper bag, or drive a crappy car. There's no need to be out schmoozing with co-workers and clients every night, running up huge bar tabs.
Honestly, one of the most appealing things about engineering is that it's devoid of all this crap. This makes it *much* easier to establish a career in than just about anything else, assuming you have the aptitude and ability. And anyone with that can make it.
I highly doubt anyone gives a rat's ass about selling their souls if they get to live the American Dream. And I really am not seeing selling software as a souless job. Want to talk price fixing, go buy some gas. Can you imagine if any other industry could jump it's price 20% overnight, sheerly out of whim.
Anonymous Cowards - Oh God, How I hate you
"treated to a catered barbecue at Bill Gates's house"
Anyone but me feeling the "Neverland" vibes here? Do they get to pet his pet monkey too?
Alright, im going to have nightmares tonight.
You cant fight in here, its a war room!
I can say that it was perhaps one of the greatest experiences of my life. Everyone, and i mean everyone, who i talked too about working for them love their jobs. The money was great, and i learned alot about not just programming and such, but how to be enthuastic about your job. I was looking forward to going to work, to work on my code, to having bull sessions about how i can improve my work.
The enviorment is the best....where what ever you want to work, jeans and tshirts are just fine. free soda/milk juice (but the coffee stinks)...come in pretty much when ever you want. The company is based off of a pyrmid structure, only one manager telling me what do to...I was 6 degrees away from Bill Gates (IE there were only six people above me until Bill), no 12 managers with their own agenda
About long hours...the policy is work as long as you have to, to do a job well done, and make all of your meetings (lots of meetings no matter where you are on the cooperate structure) some only need to work 40 hours, they can get done in that time (unless a product is going to ship), but I was encourged to work harder/longer just becuase of the atmosphere of the place.
EVen if you hate MS, if you can get an intership, do so. The money is great, so are the benifits, and you learn so much
Um... as an Arabic word, it has no "correct" latin-based spelling. Both are acceptable.
It's human nature to be jealous of those at the top. It's not human nature to hate those at the top though - hate or love comes from how those at the top act.
People generally admire Harrison Ford, but if you saw him take a bat to your car your opinion would differ from most. So it is with tech people and Microsoft, where the general population at large really has no negative experience per se with Microsoft (having been trained that computers crash all the time and software should be inconsistent). Technical people get to see the way they acquire success at the expense of other companies, and develop the dislike so well evidenced here.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
How only an AC responds with that advice.
I commend the kid for sticking to his morals.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
"But do share, if you obviously know so much about how Microsoft works on the inside. You must be a fountain of knowledge waiting to spring on the unsuspecting and undeserving Slashdot crowd. Tell us 'how it is'."
I never claimed to have ANY information about how Microsoft works on the inside! I also never said, "m$ is evil and the people who work there are ignorant whores" or "everything m$ does is stolen from someone else!!!"
Can you even read?! Do you always make up quotes to support your utterly unsupported posts?!
I asked a question. Someone responded back without supporting their position. So I responded back. You're response has nothing to do with that, whatsoever. If you cannot simply respond to what's posted, (which appears to be pretty simple to do), do us all a favor and DON'T post.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
If you are not evil and happy about it, you are fired!
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Despite the sucess of certian secret sauses, community sharing is how cooking has worked forever.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
If you can say that you probably deserve to work there. Hey, anyone can make a mistake and let their integrity get in the way of making a living. You are young and seemed to have learned a valuable lesson. Too bad you were not as clever as all those folks you admire at M$, you might have figured it out earlier. Don't worry, someone else will understand your potential and buy you.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
I worked the MS Internship in the Summer of 2001 as a tester with Windows Media Division.
The benefits of the Internship are like no other I have ever seen. It pays VERY well and there are no state Income taxes in Washington (surely a selling point for those who stay on a Full-Timers). Great software discounts allowed me to replace that book full of CDRs with legitimate software. MS bought me a $300 Bike to get to and from work (could have opted for a subsidezed car rental, but you get to keep the bike) and paid half of my rent (rent was $1000+ for my furnished place). If I worked late, I often had diner provided by the company. There are arcade games in every building, along with free Soda and Juice. There were great facilities for pickup sports games on MS campus. Seattle is a GREAT city with lots of fun stuff to do. To boot, MS even paid the TAXES on all of these benefits straight to the IRS for me.
Couple that with the fact that Interns at MS get REAL work and not some cheesy side project and you can see why so many people want the internship and why so many stay. Personally, the "real work" that I was given didn't interest me very much. In addition, I like working for smaller companies where I am crucial to success rather than working as a cog in a giant machine. Also, the environment there is dog eat dog. I like to let my work speak for itself. In my experience at MS, if you didn't speak up about what you've done, somone else would.
Your problem is that your sending out 160 resumes in the space of five weeks. The resume readers know how to filter out generic submissions and you do yourself a disfavor by not taking a couple minutes to add some details tailored to the position you're applying for, even if that results in sending out "only" 100 resumes within 5 weeks. Do some research on each company and have that knowledge reflected in the resume, even if it's just something you skimmed off the "About Us" page of their website. Even the most well-crafted generic resume is still generic. Convince the reader you want and are qualified for the specific position. And follow up on your submissions.
Yes you did! You know, because the correlation between the people they hire and the fact that "their software sucks" is a sure sign that you must know what you're talking about!
I also never said, "m$ is evil and the people who work there are ignorant whores"
Yes you did! If what they produce "sucks", then by your admission they must be ignorant.
or "everything m$ does is stolen from someone else!!!"
Yes you did!. To quote: Explain to me how software from MS is rock solid and filled with imaginative features, there were not stolen from someone else
Can you even read?! Do you always make up quotes to support your utterly unsupported posts?!
See above.
I asked a question. Someone responded back without supporting their position
That was not a question. It was redundant flamebait. And the AC that replied to you has as much need to substantiate his position as you did when you "asked" your "question".
do us all a favor and DON'T post.
Sure thing.
The idea is to give your manager no reason to label you as a "no-hire", because if that happens, you are done. She should have kept her comments to herself until or unless her work improved, then (along with a good reputation) had her issues addressed.
What you've just defined is a coercive workplace where substandard conditions (abusiveness, sexism, pay, etc) are expected to be accepted in order to get to whatever the next level is (permanent job, raise, promotion).
I agree with the pragmatic angle of it (I've bit my tongue more than once), but I also have a real problem with the idea that we're supposed to just be quiet and accept it because there's a reward at the end.
Abusive behavior of any kind should never be tolerated by any employee or any business for any reason. Unfortunately I think that each place has its threshold of abuse, and people that complain below the commonly accepted threshold get marked as "whiners" when in fact they're doing the business a favor, since its the failure to speak out that keeps the attorneys busy.
Fluffer.
They're the guys who get the porn acteresses 'ready' for their next scene. Yeah, and they get paid too.
Just watch out for diseases, mate.
If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
You betray your bias. No one is going to convince you because you've decided to not be convinced. There's plenty of online resources which detail Microsoft's features (imaginative, stable, etc) and you should be competant enough to find them. A review of the upcoming Office on ZDNet would surely discuss new features, and comment on their "imaginative"-ness and stability. I would guess that most of your Microsoft-related reading to date has been on Slashdot, or sites with a similar outlook. You likely choose to read those sites, and those sites only. When you do come across a pro-Microsoft writing (such as this news post), your mindset is one of disbelief and extreme skepticism, not of objectivity.
If Microsoft hires the "best and brightest" college graduates, then why does so much of their software suck and why is all of it utterly devoid of any imagination?!
These statements are completely subjective. Saying that all of Microsoft's features were stolen from others is just as proposterous as claiming that all of them were completely original. You could make the same (clearly vacuous) claims of General Motors, Ford, Honda, etc--after all, no one company invented the internal combustion engine, automatic transmission, or rack-and-pinion steering themselves. All parties in any industry make innovations, and all parties borrow on each other's work. The phenomenon is known as progress.
You do demostrate ignorance, as your posts lack objectivity, factual evidence or finesse. A well-formed post, with some logic to support your stance, would help convince others in the future.
I'm a former MS manager.
You should never manage anyone. You show an abysmal knowledge of good management, and you suck as a human.
From your post, you believe that:
You should have been way too busy to be concerned about sexist comments in the intern newsgroup
- internal news groups set up for interns should not be used.
If you complained to HR about ANYTHING as an intern, you sealed your fate that day.
- Reporting abuse to HR about anything is a fireable offence. Interns should just shut up and accept anything that is thrown at them.
Your complaint seems to be much more focused on interpersonal relations then on your WORK
- Personal relationships don't matter at work.
There are no bad jobs, just bad employees.
- There is no such thing as bad jobs, just bad employees.
Here is a realitity check for you:
- Internal news servers are set up to be used and are part of your company policy. If such groups are being used to harrass females, they should complain.
- That interns should have to put up with any amount of sexual harrasment or assault and not complain is just wrong and illegal. This isn't software we are talking about, but real people potentially suffering real abuse. You may not sexually harrase people yourself, but your attitude condones it.
- Personal relationships do matter at work. It matters because it effects how we view and enjoy work. Any good HR person should be able to tell you that. Any good manager should know that it matters.
- There are workers in Indonesia being paid $1 a day to make shoes for some company. They often working 12 hours day every day, sometimes with a gun pointed at them. Explain to these workers that they should not whinge, cause there ain't no such thing as a bad job, just bad employees.
- That she decided to tell us about personal relationships at MS when she worked there does not mean she did not work, did not try, or did not learn. But it does show why she didn't enjoy her job.
I can understand why you posted anonymously, as I doubt if MS knew your real views they would allow you to remain as an employee. I hope that most MS managers aren't like you. I doubt they are.
I have seen at least one manager go to jail for condoning sexual harrassment. I have personally been involved with at least two managers being fired for abusing their employees.
I sincerly hope you get taken down some day. If you really believe your views are acceptable, tell us who you are. Then we can see if your company agrees to.
Yea, the only way I would follow that and drop the idea of the startup me and my friends are thinking of doing is if Bill Gates called me on his Cell Phone during an live TV Broadcast and asked me and one of my friends to come to the campus and look around.... Other then that, no game.
(Score:0, Interesting)
hey I think they make crap, prop up new bad products with the revenues of old bad products until they become the bad standard, I think they're the people who refused to comment their code in Intro to CS in college, in short they are one of the worst things to happen to the computer industry since its inception -- but I can be bought!
where'd my typewriter go?
I find it really amusing that "everyone" here thinks MS is so evil, when in reality, they are one of the best companies to work for - and perhaps are even doing some things right - as much as it hurts the people here to think.
True. As long as you do what Microsoft asks, they don't have a problem with you.
Easy.
- Scott
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
It seems that they wouldn't get much through the door, though they seem the most likely to be creative problem solvers. They're the ones that try to figure out a way to minimize the amount of actual work that they have to do, which is typically reflected in the grade. My resume would suck ass if I were just coming out of college.
They should administer some kind of multi-faceted IQ test. Sorry, all of you poor test takers really show your ability to operate under pressure. I never worried about tests, it was the required homework assignments that always did me in. Of course, I doubt MS is gonna want to hire full-fledged hacker types. They prefer to have their choice of the amateurs.
</FLAME ON!>You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
>It is unfortunate that teachers will bear this loss when they are already >struggling to keep pace with inflation.
Look on the bright side. This might solve the 'teachers all retiring at once' problem we've been hearing about all these years. Similar investments could solve the nursing shortage too.
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I enjoyed my internship there, but declined the full-time offer for a variety of reasons, the two main ones being that I did not want to work my butt off 60 hours a week (yes, this is what I put in as an intern, worked on the weekends too), and I was working for myself at the time, and wanted to roll the dice on that. In the end, I'm glad I did not do the full-time job with MS, I've had much more fun, freedom, and success going it on my own that I would have working for MS. In fact, in choosing to go it on my own I had the opportunity to close the circle: I sold some software I wrote (the complete source code and intellectual rights) to MS about a year ago.
The internship at MS was sweet, though, $4k a month, IIRC, flex hours, all the Diet Cherry Coke I could drink, my own office for most of the internship, I was given a real project to work on... unfortunately I was the sole developer/product manager, so I didn't really get to work in a team or form any sort of relationship with regular MS employees, but it was neat to be able to start a project at its inception and work on it through deployment. (FWIW, the project was a notification system for the Office team to allow developers/testers to sign up for notifications when certain builds were complete or certain other criteria were met.) The BBQ at Bill's house was pretty sweet, the HR chicks were pretty hot, and intramural basketball was hella fun.
I could not justify my existence if I were a turkey farmer. Would I terminate myself? Undoubtably, yes.
The reason this article was so intriguing to me is that it reaches to the core of the human condition. That is: When a person has wealth beyond their wildest imagining shoved in their face, nine times out of ten they will sell their mother to a whorehouse for it. People who understand the social trends that are occuring with regard to intellectual property mostly view MS as evil. While it's true that MS is just another corporation who's aim is to make money, their agenda flies in the face of the way many feel the world should be. A world of computers controlled by the MS monopoly will never be free. The interns who go to work for MS understand this, but they don't care because they need to make money and they want a new car. At the end of the day they are able to justify any actions of their corporate parent as being beyond their control, but the fact is that they contribute. How can we say that the work we do doesn't reflect our values? Everything we do reflects our values. I hear the hard luck stories about how any job is a good one in this economy, but they are ridiculous. There are choices out there that may not make you rich, but might be the right thing to do. I know what it's like to be poor, and government cheese gets old, but if that's the only choice you have: be poor or do the wrong thing, the choice should be clear. I know I need to provide for my daughter, and right now I'm working two jobs to do it, but at least she'll know that her dad took care of old people and DD people, and didn't contribute to a world where she can't say what she wants to say and do what she wants with her things in her own home.
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People here should be concerned with their own performance
Then, explain the poor quality of your output. Thanks.
I'm a former MS manager.
I note with interest the word "former". Employee morale, is one of the keys to productivity. By your attitude you no doubt have managed to damage this within your group. No one can assess the cost in lost productivity and even lost employees that likely have resulted.
If an intern went to HR, it was an act of great bravely, for the very reason that you mention--that doing so may risk putting someone's job in danger. Doing so, then, was an unselfish act that helps the many who were afraid to speak and the many who will follow.
Donate background CPU time to fight cancer.
But i think tah the current MS corporate culture will actualy bode well foe MS in global market. Currently, peopel from the nations you mentioned as real competitors for MS are grossly underpaid and over worked if you compare it to US standards.
MS only route to staying ahead in the international market is to do a HSBC. Where you start employing local peopel 'localise' your software. As such, with MS's image as an employer that will take care of you, you are more likely to leave whoever you work for to work for MS, allowing MS to skim off the best.
Hell, with my US$1.3/hr wage here in Asia, I'd jump at the chance to work for a company that will actualy feed me lunch on the lunch alone. Let's not even get into the rest of the perks.
Sometimes I wish I was a plumber, then I'd know how to deal with other people's shit.
Rafi and I lived one floor away when I was at UMD. I can't believe he went to the dark side, though. :(
If you don't want to hear people bash Microsoft, I suggest you start hanging out in a society of Albanian goat-herders. They probably haven't had the experiences that most Slashdot readers have.
And what exactly would be YOUR experiences with Microsoft? You know what you read in the news, and you know what you have heard on Slashdot. Nvidia has also been hit with SEC charges, as many other major companies. AC's argument is valid. If this where another company, say AMD or nVidia, you would cut them a lot of slack. I personally find anti-trust violations a lot more tolerable than lying about your earnings. Are you going to whine about all the other companies that have been convicted of crimes?
Your personal vendetta (as of most slashdotters) is against Microsoft. It's just like how you rant and rave about how Hollywood is so evil but you hype all the Matrix movies.
I also read the news and I see things like the BSA and Trustworthy computing, both of which indicate that Microsoft is continuing in the same fashion. Outright lies backed up with armies of lawyers.
What makes these lies in the first place? Do you have a hard and fast definition of "trustworthy computing"? My dog is trustworthy, but he still might pee on your rug. You have opinions not facts. You go off saying how evil MS is and how they lie, but you don't give real examples of outright deciet! "Trustworthy Computing" is like "A+ Auto Repair"...if you don't think it's "A+" does that mean they are lying? Of course not.
Everything you have said is based on emotion and not reasoning.
Winning the lottery, participating in a pyramid scheme, or joining the next Microsoft are not viable life plans. For every Microsoft employee that made it, there are hundreds of employees at other companies that worked as hard as you did and didn't make it. In fact, for every Microsoft employee like you, there are probably half a dozen Microsoft employees now that aren't doing any better than anybody else employed by a big company.
So, count your blessings and thank your stars for your good fortune.
>my job is to make my OWN manager look good,
No. Your job is to ensure that your team meets the goals set forth for it, whether or not it makes your manager look good. Key to that is high morale among your team members. If your main goal is making your manager look good- you will have crappy products, pissed off employees, and eventually you will be fired.
I've worked for people with that attitude. They are lower than dogshit.
Clippy doesn't work here. Please spell/grammar check the posts yourselves.
"I can speak for myself and some of my friend..."
"I had a great time as an intern at MS and would do it again in a hard beat."
I internerd (Score:5, Informative)
Then you will understand that interns at Microsoft are not picked up at MacDonalds, but recruited at the finest universities and should pass a tough selection program.
Also because I had been at the company so long Microsoft assumed I was garunteed to work for them after graduation.
This space intentionally left blank.
I interned over summer 2002 with the mac business unit (aka macbu, and that's pronounced mac-boo for the record) as a program manager. First off, I did work 60 hours a week minimum. And it was worth it. The real trick here is that ms does not require you to be stuck in an office from 9 to 5. I did most of my work @ a starbucks and a tullys near campus (in the town center for those who know). The amount of work you do, in many cases, is a direct result of the amount you want to do. I worked as much as I did out of choice. I still managed to have a social life on weekends, and I even met a wonderful girl as part of the deal (she's an english major and does not work for ms). The culture of individual groups can vary greatly. They are as unique as their employees. I would recommend an ms internship to anyone with the inclination. The work is hard but rewarding, and the perks are out of this world. Also, it bears mentioning that the bill bbq is only open to people who will be graduating in the next school year. 2002 was the first year with this policy. It was instituted due to the increasing number of interns. Finally, the intern newsgroup mentioned in other posts is never worth reading. It tends towards being as bad as browsing slashdot at -1.
iRooster, the Mac OS X a
Every Friday, Microsoft will treat you to the Friday fest - free food and free unlimited beer. Yes you heard that right - every friday... They will take you out to trips, pay for your tickets for ball games, sponsor white water rafting trips and what not. I don't think after this experience there was a single one of us who hated MS anymore (and trust me, most of us were extremely anti-MS to begin with).
Apologies for C&Ping the bulk of that, but.... I'm not clear what you're trying to say here?- That you thought beforehand that MS were cheapskates and you liked them after all because they weren't?
Or that you didn't want to work for them because of ethics/principles/something, but they bought you off with lots of free goodies?
It's not too clear. Fair enough, I can understand an MS-hater going for an internship for curiosity/experience's sake, but what does the last bit tell us beyond the fact you like goodies?
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
No-one with any kind of basic education in operating systems design could *possibly* be "pro-microsoft". I've never even heard of such a thing amongst clueful people. Only PHBs, bean counters, web developers and other assorted retards who equate "computer" with "MS Word".
... C++ or Java will do. Or maybe just something from Knuth :) That'll sort the "Where's Visual Studio?" weenies and dot-com "web developers" from the people who actually know what the fuck they're doing!
if we had MS's version of everything it'd be much easier for him to do his job.
Yes, he's an MCSE, and he can't do anything without "clippy the paper clip" around to help him. Get rid of the moron, before he does some real damage.
yet is so hasty to criticize all that is non-MS
I guess, since all my colleagues have *actual* degrees, it's quite hard for me to imagine anyone really taking this position, unless they were playing devil's advocate.
Wierd. Just make sure, at your next interview, to ask a ton of hard technical questions. Doesn't even have to be about Unix
It was my experience while I was in college that most larger tech companies offer compensation for their interns. I worked for Honeywell for the 4 years I was in college, and they paid me a pretty decent salary, AND they put me up in a corporate apartment during the times I worked for them. I also accrued benefits based on the amount of time I had worked for the company like any normal employee did. A lot of my other classmates had jobs like this.
I think internships are completely different outside the techie field though. The company I work for now pays the interns we have in to work on our network, and the programmers, but the graphic design artists we have for interns are not paid, they just get jobs to add to their resume.
The difference between the paid and unpaid internships I think is this: in a field that puts more emphasis on past accomplishments (like graphic design or journalism), college kids take internships for the "experience". And in a field where you either know what you need to do or not (like programming or networking), you have provable skills that can be the basis for hiring.
OK, now that I've rambled on entirely too much, I'm going to go back and keep reading other opinions