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MA Dept. of Revenue consider Linux
hansroy writes "Massachusetts Department of Revenue is still using Windows 95 on the desktop. Faced with upgrade costs of $500-600 per user, they're considering Linux at about one-third the cost. This comes at a very good time, as the new governor of MA is making significant budget cuts this year."
there are some people who should be forced to use Windows?
Humorous signatures are over-rated.
I gotta say, what's cheaper?
1. $600 for WinXP
2. Putting Linux on all the machines, configuring them to work interoperably with the Windows machines, and retraining everyone?
No idea which really is cheaper, but I wouldn't automatically say "Linux is cheaper". Training costs money. Interoperability work costs money.
-Erwos
Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.
or they could use koffice which isn't compatible with anything.
lol
Running on 95 at this point is a good example of actually getting use out of your hardware and software. If you don't have an absolute need for the newest, snazziest, fastest machine in the world with the latest and "greatest" (YMMV) operating system and software, then don't bother. Having them consider linux is the best thing they can do, since even if a vendor drops support, updating one's system is free if you do it right. Imagine being an administrator of an all-Gentoo government department...you could easily update everyone from your own desk via terminal emulation, simultaneously from your office, while maintaining that humming little pentium II (if that high) buzzing in the corner as a portage download mirror for speed...
ah, a man has gotta have a right to dream, eh?
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
What's the reason for their upgrade? Windows 95 + Office 95 is still a decent combination and probably does more than what 99% of their users will ever need. Security isn't too great out of the box, but it's not that hard to configure the clients and/or a firewire in a sane manner.
I don't understand this "we must upgrade" mindset. If the wiz-bang product worked wonders when it was new, isn't is still working just as good today? My office recently replaced hundreds of P3/933 machines (running Win2K + Office2K) with P4/2.5G machines running WinXP + OfficeXP. Aside from the different default color and button theme, nobody really noticed a difference.... other than having to migrate files to the new boxes. The new machine rollout wasn't needed and was expensive... but the IT department said it "NEEDED TO BE DONE".
I don't get it.
A government? Cutting the budget? Will wonders never cease?
Most governments would just jack the taxes through the roof.
masshightech - 10 comments and dead
The problem is, of course, retraining. Windows-esque KDE environments can go a long way, but there are all those little niggling things that can throw a user off. THat's not to say I'm not behind them switching to Linux, I thinkn it's an excellent idea if it does what they want it to do, I'm just saying they have to consider all those small things you might think of at first.
I am a filthy pirate.
They will need to spend a lot on ram and processors to be able to run Openoffice
I'm guessing you mean faster processors. It doesn't take SMP to run openoffice. But hey, what do you expect from a troll, intelligence? bah!
or they could use koffice which isn't compatible with anything
It's compatible with more than koffice. Word isn't compatible with much other than word. If Koffice is all you're using, why the fuck do you need it to support word?
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson
There was an excellent overview of the Linux on the desktop issue at OSNews some time ago.
Personally, I feel that if they get pretty good hardware (800 to gigahertz range to run Gnome or KDE without glitches) then they wouldnt need that much training. Maybe just a bonus to the IT guys for answering some questions but that would be all.
So, indeed, Linux does cost less and it will cost even more less in the future with the 2.5 and 2.6 solving many many problems. First thing that pops into my mind would be ALSA in the kernel - no more messing around, just build the kernel and be done with it. Excellent!
You make an excellent point. In the short term Linux might not be cheaper. In the long term however, what is going to be cheaper for continuing upgrades, given that the retraining (which might be minimal) only needs to be done once, but you have to pay Microsoft every few years.
Lasers Controlled Games!
I think that web server is running Windows 95 as well.. judging by the speed at which it was bought to its knees :)
What I'm curious about is what software they plan to run on their desktop. If it's the standard office package then cool. If they run, like some public agencies do, canned software they they may have issues with getting that ported or finding alternatives, which isn't so cool (unless the alternatives are equal or better in useability and performance.)
Still have the brown screen. Looks grim.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
hopefully it works for them. most companies are so tied to windows and x86 they couldn't get out for anything near $200 a seat. they would need custom software to interact with their old data in proprietary format. many would need custom software just to allow them to continue working because no open-source software or even linux software is available to do the things they need for their business.
for example, i use a 3d cadd package (solid edge) to model parts and make drawings. as far as i know, the closest thing for linux is the army's brl-cad. which isn't very close at all.
in addition, our parts database has pdf's, doc's, xls's and such as part of the oracle database. there is a web frontend, but what good is it if you can't open the microsoft attachments.
there are many other layers of shackles in place, and there is no way anyone would easily be able to change platforms.
linux may work in this situation where the switch is from windows 95. any place the dor switches to will require new file formats, new programs and more training for everyone. so there is no net loss directly associated with switching to linux in particular.
When every word you say is recorded, it's not hard to find stupid things that were said by leaders.
"I created the Internet"
"I may not have been the greatest president, but I've had the most fun eight years."
"Just try to imagine what it would be like to be 300 million years old." -- President Clinton in Ashe County, N.C. He was speaking on the banks of the New River, which scientists say is the oldest river in the United States.
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
"Microsoft bigots" is how Scott Akers describes users and administrators who won't consider so-called solutions outside the Microsoft realm.
"For them, it's 100 percent Microsoft and that's the end of the discussion," said the chief administrator of technical support for the Massachusetts Department of Revenue, a government entity with 3,500 users. "I feel like there should be an alternative to Microsoft. My intent is to make it free, and it's looking extremely promising."
To that end, Akers is advocating a DOR switch to open source/Linux, and he speaks of the possibility with the fervor of an activist. Charged with the technical direction of DOR, he talks about "altruistic decisions that have to be made" and the fiscal need to "embrace the open source solution."
Open source software is distributed under licensing terms that make the source code available at no cost, and through Linux servers, push word processing, spreadsheet, slide presentation, e-mail, Web browsing and slide presentation, all without the licensing fees charged for applications, most notably, Windows. And with DOR currently using Windows 95 and Microsoft not budging on per user licensing costs of between $500 and $600 a seat, Akers sees open source/Linux as the best solution for the Commonwealth's DOR, which processes information related to all taxation, underground storage tanks and child support.
"My intention is within 12 months to start rolling it out to users," he said. "The state has been stalled for two-and-a-half years on a licensing agreement with Microsoft. (Open source/Linux) would cost about a third."
Not to mention allowing Akers to get at the source code and customize the software to meet his department's needs.
Rebecca LaBrunerie, product manager for Microsoft's worldwide licensing, said the software giant is working with DOR and other state agencies to convince them of the benefits of Microsoft. Those benefits, she said, include familiarity, ease, application and productivity.
She also reminds that licensing costs are linked to "buying behavior;" in particular, the more a customer buys and upgrades, the bigger the discount.
Purchasing software insurance is also an option she said may be in the state's best interest, adding that switching to new programs always involves new training costs.
"But we encourage our customers to look at all their options," she said. "That's what they should do."
One of those options seems to be licensing, Akers said.
"Microsoft now wants annual licensing schemes. That's a whole different paradigm," he said. "We've been on Windows 95 for six years. If we'd been paying a licensing fee, we would've been paying a lot more. That's where the rub comes."
A rub, coupled with a tight economy, that may give Morgan Lim's company the push it needs. Co-founder and director of sales for Chelsea's Open-PC, Lim designs, integrates and sells desktops, laptops, video games and servers with pre-loaded Linux, offering the open source choices of Red Hat, Mandrake, Lycoris or Suse. Lim is targeting the little guys with not a lot of resources.
"We're very, very glad to be in this place," said Lim, adding a deal with DOR would be the "breakthrough" Open-PC needs.
"The state has no money and Microsoft is not budging," he said. "It's a stuck-in-the-mud situation."
A situation he claims he can fix by getting DOR onto open source/Linux for about $200 a user, about a third of Microsoft's $500 to $600.
"Desktop is the battlefield," he said. "That is the big story. The kind of thing Microsoft would pay attention to."
Lim is also training IT professionals to master open source/Linux through Boston University's corporate education center, while proselytizing about reduced cost, reliability and independence of proprietary obligations. He points to Amazon.com, Oracle and Merrill Lynch as large-scale Linux converts, and he notes that the MIT computer lab uses Unix or Linux and that IBM has invested many billions of dollars to support Linux. Sun, Oracle and Hewlett-Packard have also announced Linux support.
Meanwhile, as Lim tries to capture the smaller New England market, he's sold Akers. Open-PC has the go-ahead to bring a pilot program to DOR, allowing state IT professionals to "see it work." DOR skeptics want to see if Linux Open Office will allow for exchange of information with Windows systems, something Lim says is happening in his office and elsewhere.
"We use a mixed environment to simulate a work environment and we've been doing this since last year. It all works," he said. "Take the Microsoft exchange server out and the licensing costs go away. And you can upgrade whenever you want. I just think we live in a framework where people think anything free can't be good."
Akers concedes that some of the open source/Linux options are "not easily navigated" but is confident he and his staff can master it, as Lim promises support. Like all open source businesses, support is the business, given that by definition, open source software cannot be bought and sold.
And if the state likes the pilot program and later secures the funding to implement it across the board, by then open source/Linux bugs will be exterminated, Akers predicts.
"It could be two years from now, but at that point, we could have a simple solution," he said. "It's still very much up in the air. We're doing the pilot application, then we'll ask for some real funds to prove the whole Linux-based (system) will hold together. But again, there's a lot of religion involved."
New England Microsoft representative Alison Kenney points to the company's "shared source initiative" for partners and educators. Lim describes it as "partial" and "selective" open source, adding "you either are or you aren't."
Meanwhile, Lim's predicting an Open-PC-DOR deal will be the catalyst for change.
"Right now the state is very poor and Linux is very mature," he said. "We're doing a very good business. I think open source is going to grow bigger and bigger. The technology is there, but the mind-set is not there."
Yet.
HEy, everythings working fine, why dont we cut the IT departments budget......
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
That isn't to say UI can't ever be changed (I'm not arguing against progress, nor making any comments on whether XP's approach is progress), but the "familiarity" argument for staying with MS is total bullshit.
The "ease" argument is bullshit too. You have to turn off the firewall that comes with XP to use Win98's SMB printer. Yeah, that's really intuitive and easy. Today, somebody paid a couple hundred dollars for that "ease."
Applications: this one is true; you might be locked into MS. Tell your vendor you want the next wave of custom apps to be platform independent. It is inexcusable for most business software to not be super-portable these days: PYTHON ROCKS and there's almost nothing it can't do (well, not counting realtime stuff, like monitoring the neutron rods in your reactor ;-). And I'm sure
the Java and perl guys have something to say as well. If your vendors are
still creating unportable apps, either find other vendors, or at least
tell them that their decisions are costing YOU money.
BTW, I mean that about portability. Don't trust Linux either. Just be able to use anything and then whatever platform comes out on top .. will come out on top. I don't see Tux's flippers shaking with
fear over that prospect.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
A) Ballmer should be booking a flight to MA right about now?
B) So I understand that the state estimates that they will have to pay $300 per new PC, with no cost for Linux? Who wants to be that Ballmer will now offer to sell the state XP licenses for fifty bucks a pop.
Now what's going to happen next is going to be intereting. Microsoft will argue that fifty bucks a pop would still be cheaper than the cost of retraining their orkers.
That's absolutely true. The only realistic way I see for Linux to be a viable option here would be either if:
A) The state intends to load Linux on their existing, aging PCs, thus eliminating the hardware costs alltogether, but were this true the story would've reflected that
B) The state was so scrapped for cash that even the fifty bucks per XP is too much, and they do not consider retraining as a budget line item
C) The state is smart enough to realize the monetary value of vendor lock-in. The greatest savnigs the state will realize with the Linux solution, of course, is the elimination of vendor lock-in. That's something that Microsoft will desperately try to avoid mentioning, but their popular trick is to first act as if they're going to give away copies of XP at rock-bottom price, only forgeting to emphasize that the "fire sale" is only for the first two or three years of the annual XP subscription license, and after the honeymoon is over, you bend over, grab your ankles, and start shitting out XP license fees...
With the consistent budget cuts without appropriate allocation of our furthering dwindling budget, that probably isn't too far from the truth.
I definitely hate the "Install Linux, Problem Solved" crew, but one can only hope that MA doesn't keep sticking their heads in the sand with the budget crisis.
Depends on which one is a one-time cost, and which one is recurring every 2-3 years.
Training the users to jump from Office 4.2 to Office XP isn't a small feat either.
And upgrading Win95 era workstations (~200Mhz Pentiums) won't be cheap either. The right version of Linux won't require much of an upgrade.
Great wide open (source)
03/10/2003 08:54 AM
By Elizabeth Dinan
"Microsoft bigots" is how Scott Akers describes users and administrators who won't consider so-called solutions outside the Microsoft realm.
"For them, it's 100 percent Microsoft and that's the end of the discussion," said the chief administrator of technical support for the Massachusetts Department of Revenue, a government entity with 3,500 users. "I feel like there should be an alternative to Microsoft. My intent is to make it free, and it's looking extremely promising."
To that end, Akers is advocating a DOR switch to open source/Linux, and he speaks of the possibility with the fervor of an activist. Charged with the technical direction of DOR, he talks about "altruistic decisions that have to be made" and the fiscal need to "embrace the open source solution."
Open source software is distributed under licensing terms that make the source code available at no cost, and through Linux servers, push word processing, spreadsheet, slide presentation, e-mail, Web browsing and slide presentation, all without the licensing fees charged for applications, most notably, Windows. And with DOR currently using Windows 95 and Microsoft not budging on per user licensing costs of between $500 and $600 a seat, Akers sees open source/Linux as the best solution for the Commonwealth's DOR, which processes information related to all taxation, underground storage tanks and child support.
"My intention is within 12 months to start rolling it out to users," he said. "The state has been stalled for two-and-a-half years on a licensing agreement with Microsoft. (Open source/Linux) would cost about a third."
Not to mention allowing Akers to get at the source code and customize the software to meet his department's needs.
Rebecca LaBrunerie, product manager for Microsoft's worldwide licensing, said the software giant is working with DOR and other state agencies to convince them of the benefits of Microsoft. Those benefits, she said, include familiarity, ease, application and productivity.
She also reminds that licensing costs are linked to "buying behavior;" in particular, the more a customer buys and upgrades, the bigger the discount.
Purchasing software insurance is also an option she said may be in the state's best interest, adding that switching to new programs always involves new training costs.
"But we encourage our customers to look at all their options," she said. "That's what they should do."
One of those options seems to be licensing, Akers said.
"Microsoft now wants annual licensing schemes. That's a whole different paradigm," he said. "We've been on Windows 95 for six years. If we'd been paying a licensing fee, we would've been paying a lot more. That's where the rub comes."
A rub, coupled with a tight economy, that may give Morgan Lim's company the push it needs. Co-founder and director of sales for Chelsea's Open-PC, Lim designs, integrates and sells desktops, laptops, video games and servers with pre-loaded Linux, offering the open source choices of Red Hat, Mandrake, Lycoris or Suse. Lim is targeting the little guys with not a lot of resources.
"We're very, very glad to be in this place," said Lim, adding a deal with DOR would be the "breakthrough" Open-PC needs.
"The state has no money and Microsoft is not budging," he said. "It's a stuck-in-the-mud situation."
A situation he claims he can fix by getting DOR onto open source/Linux for about $200 a user, about a third of Microsoft's $500 to $600.
"Desktop is the battlefield," he said. "That is the big story. The kind of thing Microsoft would pay attention to."
Lim is also training IT professionals to master open source/Linux through Boston University's corporate education center, while proselytizing about reduced cost, reliability and independence of proprietary obligations. He points to Amazon.com, Oracle and Merrill Lynch as large-scale Linux converts, and he notes that the MIT computer lab uses Unix or Linux and that IBM has invested many billions of dollars to support Linux. Sun, Oracle and Hewlett-Packard have also announced Linux support.
Meanwhile, as Lim tries to capture the smaller New England market, he's sold Akers. Open-PC has the go-ahead to bring a pilot program to DOR, allowing state IT professionals to "see it work." DOR skeptics want to see if Linux Open Office will allow for exchange of information with Windows systems, something Lim says is happening in his office and elsewhere.
"We use a mixed environment to simulate a work environment and we've been doing this since last year. It all works," he said. "Take the Microsoft exchange server out and the licensing costs go away. And you can upgrade whenever you want. I just think we live in a framework where people think anything free can't be good."
Akers concedes that some of the open source/Linux options are "not easily navigated" but is confident he and his staff can master it, as Lim promises support. Like all open source businesses, support is the business, given that by definition, open source software cannot be bought and sold.
And if the state likes the pilot program and later secures the funding to implement it across the board, by then open source/Linux bugs will be exterminated, Akers predicts.
"It could be two years from now, but at that point, we could have a simple solution," he said. "It's still very much up in the air. We're doing the pilot application, then we'll ask for some real funds to prove the whole Linux-based (system) will hold together. But again, there's a lot of religion involved."
New England Microsoft representative Alison Kenney points to the company's "shared source initiative" for partners and educators. Lim describes it as "partial" and "selective" open source, adding "you either are or you aren't."
Meanwhile, Lim's predicting an Open-PC-DOR deal will be the catalyst for change.
"Right now the state is very poor and Linux is very mature," he said. "We're doing a very good business. I think open source is going to grow bigger and bigger. The technology is there, but the mind-set is not there."
Yet.
Not to ask the obvious, but why upgrade?
I mean, if the computers were built for a specific purpose, and they're still used for that purpose, why upgrade?
Reasons to upgrade:
1.) Your programs require more system resources. This is fair. We were using QuickBooks from ages ago until they stopped providing tax tables for our version, forcing us to upgrade *grr* and the new version has new bells and whistles so that it bogs down the P-90 w/ 32 megs of ram.
2.) You want support from Microsoft. But, then, if you really wanted to install all the updates for windows 95, wow. That's a lot of updates, probably adding enough to your system to bog it down alone.
But, then, why not upgrade the hardware and install the same copies of Win95? You'd be surprised how many programs will work with win95.
Or, how much do new copies of windows 98 cost? I don't know if they're still available, or how that works. You may have to do the MS stupid "upgrade to downgrade" thing.
If you want to keep windows there are lots of alternatives to look at. I say this because developing new software for linux and training your average high school grad 40 year old secretary to use linux won't be cheap. Something like RedHat 8 is intuitive, but it ain't perfect. Keep in mind that intuitive doesn't mean everything - familiarity is much more important.
I'm all for linux, but I'm also all for lowering the TCO. And i know that over time, linux is definately cheaper. But, then, how many politicians look long term? You look short term so that you get re-elected. Long term politicians get voted out of office.
~Will
sig?
You need training for windows XP, configuring the machines to work with "interoperably" with XP costs money. You're not talking about Linux vs Win98, its WinNT (5.x) There's a lot of money to be spent and even more to be wasted. Being a resident, I'm sure that's what we'll end up doing, spending ten times what we should for "upgrading"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signature_bloc
A little off topic, but IMHO government is the servent of the people. When times are bad they should be the first to take a loss, and when times are good government should be the last sector to recover. CA could especially take a hint.
It would take a lot more ram and processors to support Windows XP and Microsoft Office.
The usual question will come up ... are they really considering Linux, or are they just proclaiming it to grab the Evil Empire's attention, hoping to be offered deep discounts on the new version of Windows?
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
While I am very skeptical of the pro-linux argument that this is $600 versus "free" due to TCO, note that for the $600, that probably means $600 for an upgrade of software that is meant to similarly last another eight years or more.
Given the subscription basis of MS software, it will likely require additional infusions of cash every few years for upgrading software.
On the other hand, maybe rather than the state doing the purchasing and maintenance in house, they should consider out-sourcing their entire IT department to a private company who can get more flexible and cheaper contracts for sofware and hardware.
If I were a resident of the fine state of MA I would be very concerned about any or all of my personal tax info leaking. Linux on the desktop is bound to improve their security posture.
'ta
BIG DIG
Any questions?
I really like the "if it is not broke dont fix it" group here.
We are talking about windows 95.. Guess what? It is broke. It has a MTBF of about 180 hours,
The product is no longer supported by the manufacturer. This means no more security updates. Windows 95 was never a very secure networked computer OS. I am sure that the Massachusetts Department of Revenue, could use some security.
Get a free ipod.
% Americatown is themed with a random assortment of United States politics and
% pop culture. Each table is shaped like a state. The Simpsons sit at
% Massachusetts.
Homer: I can't believe they stuck us at Taxachusetts! [points to table] Hey, you know, I once knew a man from Nantucket.
Bart: And?
Homer: Let's just say the stories about him are greatly exaggerated.
Waiter: Howdy gangstas! I'm average American Joe Salaryman waiter.
Bart: These prices suck! 10,000 yen for coleslaw?
Lisa: Don't you serve anything that's even remotely Japanese?
Waiter: Don't ask me; I don't know anything! I'm product of American education system. I also build poor-quality cars and inferior-style electronics.
Homer: [cackles] Oh, they got our number!
I'm on a road shaped like a figure eight; I'm going nowhere but I'm guaranteed to be late.
A company I used to work for had around 6 users on terminals connected to a Unix box. I was experimenting with Linux at the time and was taken aback by these users who had been running tape backups, as root, from the command line years before I ever did!
:-
Anyway - the point!!!
People will use *anything* at work. If the average user is sat in front of a well controlled desktop with easy access to the software they need, they'll care "not a jot" whether it's Linux, Windows or "Whatever"-soft (bought from "Whatever" local company who can supply the goods cheap enough).
As long as the Linux desktop crashes *less* than Win95 (ahem) then at least this may be an another outlet which exposes Linux to the average person in a positive way - as long as they can get stuff done on it.
In businessess I have worked in, price has always been the deciding factor and this might just be where Linux has the perceived edge to the business. Maybe business is the (indirect) way to the user desktop?
..I'm really guessing(have not read the article yet either) but, I would imagine that retraining really only means in this instance learning a new similar app, perhaps three of them, and that's it. They'll have some office-like app, their database/accounting, and whatever email thing they will use. And coming from 95, I bet most of them would be looking forward to something new, which might make it easier, enthusiasm tends to do that.
That's because it's kompatible with everything important, knothing ;-)
The server is on it's way down from The /. effect.
Posted anonymously, so not to look like a whore.
Great wide open (source)
03/10/2003 08:54 AM By Elizabeth Dinan
"Microsoft bigots" is how Scott Akers describes users and administrators who won't consider so-called solutions outside the Microsoft realm.
"For them, it's 100 percent Microsoft and that's the end of the discussion," said the chief administrator of technical support for the Massachusetts Department of Revenue, a government entity with 3,500 users. "I feel like there should be an alternative to Microsoft. My intent is to make it free, and it's looking extremely promising."
To that end, Akers is advocating a DOR switch to open source/Linux, and he speaks of the possibility with the fervor of an activist. Charged with the technical direction of DOR, he talks about "altruistic decisions that have to be made" and the fiscal need to "embrace the open source solution."
Open source software is distributed under licensing terms that make the source code available at no cost, and through Linux servers, push word processing, spreadsheet, slide presentation, e-mail, Web browsing and slide presentation, all without the licensing fees charged for applications, most notably, Windows. And with DOR currently using Windows 95 and Microsoft not budging on per user licensing costs of between $500 and $600 a seat, Akers sees open source/Linux as the best solution for the Commonwealth's DOR, which processes information related to all taxation, underground storage tanks and child support.
"My intention is within 12 months to start rolling it out to users," he said. "The state has been stalled for two-and-a-half years on a licensing agreement with Microsoft. (Open source/Linux) would cost about a third."
Not to mention allowing Akers to get at the source code and customize the software to meet his department's needs.
Rebecca LaBrunerie, product manager for Microsoft's worldwide licensing, said the software giant is working with DOR and other state agencies to convince them of the benefits of Microsoft. Those benefits, she said, include familiarity, ease, application and productivity.
She also reminds that licensing costs are linked to "buying behavior;" in particular, the more a customer buys and upgrades, the bigger the discount.
Purchasing software insurance is also an option she said may be in the state's best interest, adding that switching to new programs always involves new training costs.
"But we encourage our customers to look at all their options," she said. "That's what they should do."
One of those options seems to be licensing, Akers said.
"Microsoft now wants annual licensing schemes. That's a whole different paradigm," he said. "We've been on Windows 95 for six years. If we'd been paying a licensing fee, we would've been paying a lot more. That's where the rub comes."
A rub, coupled with a tight economy, that may give Morgan Lim's company the push it needs. Co-founder and director of sales for Chelsea's Open-PC, Lim designs, integrates and sells desktops, laptops, video games and servers with pre-loaded Linux, offering the open source choices of Red Hat, Mandrake, Lycoris or Suse. Lim is targeting the little guys with not a lot of resources.
"We're very, very glad to be in this place," said Lim, adding a deal with DOR would be the "breakthrough" Open-PC needs.
"The state has no money and Microsoft is not budging," he said. "It's a stuck-in-the-mud situation."
A situation he claims he can fix by getting DOR onto open source/Linux for about $200 a user, about a third of Microsoft's $500 to $600.
"Desktop is the battlefield," he said. "That is the big story. The kind of thing Microsoft would pay attention to."
Lim is also training IT professionals to master open source/Linux through Boston University's corporate education center, while proselytizing about reduced cost, reliability and independence of proprietary obligations. He points to Amazon.com, Oracle and Merrill Lynch as large-scale Linux converts, and he notes that the MIT computer lab uses Unix or Linux and that IBM has invested many billions of dollars to support Linux. Sun, Oracle and Hewlett-Packard have also announced Linux support.
Meanwhile, as Lim tries to capture the smaller New England market, he's sold Akers. Open-PC has the go-ahead to bring a pilot program to DOR, allowing state IT professionals to "see it work." DOR skeptics want to see if Linux Open Office will allow for exchange of information with Windows systems, something Lim says is happening in his office and elsewhere.
"We use a mixed environment to simulate a work environment and we've been doing this since last year. It all works," he said. "Take the Microsoft exchange server out and the licensing costs go away. And you can upgrade whenever you want. I just think we live in a framework where people think anything free can't be good."
Akers concedes that some of the open source/Linux options are "not easily navigated" but is confident he and his staff can master it, as Lim promises support. Like all open source businesses, support is the business, given that by definition, open source software cannot be bought and sold.
And if the state likes the pilot program and later secures the funding to implement it across the board, by then open source/Linux bugs will be exterminated, Akers predicts.
"It could be two years from now, but at that point, we could have a simple solution," he said. "It's still very much up in the air. We're doing the pilot application, then we'll ask for some real funds to prove the whole Linux-based (system) will hold together. But again, there's a lot of religion involved."
New England Microsoft representative Alison Kenney points to the company's "shared source initiative" for partners and educators. Lim describes it as "partial" and "selective" open source, adding "you either are or you aren't."
Meanwhile, Lim's predicting an Open-PC-DOR deal will be the catalyst for change.
"Right now the state is very poor and Linux is very mature," he said. "We're doing a very good business. I think open source is going to grow bigger and bigger. The technology is there, but the mind-set is not there."
Yet.
I'm guessing you mean faster processors. It doesn't take SMP to run openoffice. But hey, what do you expect from a troll, intelligence? bah!
No, he meant processors. Not as in multi procs for one system, but as in multiple machines. Obviously it's not newsworthy if Mass. is upgrading one machine. He meant multiple machines, processors with cost over many machines.
It's compatible with more than koffice. Word isn't compatible with much other than word. If Koffice is all you're using, why the fuck do you need it to support word?
Because word is the world standard for written documents in the professional business world. Hate to break it to you, but where I work, we don't have but 2 windows machines, and one running VMware, out of about 80 computers. We get lease documents, legal notices, business proposals, ad nauseum, in word or excel format. If you can't read it, you limit your professional image and connectivity.
K-office is compatable with k-office. Open/Star office at least has basic word compatability and functionality.
Please, microsoft may suck for their draconian EULA's, their extremely high prices, their business model, etc. But they make a good office suite. Plus, like it or not, it's the world standard.
Touche, troll. Touche.
~Will
sig?
Basically, as the process and tools improve and more information is not only just available but EASILY available and organized (and written) well then the more you will see moves like this happen in the world. If your goal is to strike out at MS simply because you hate them then well you might get what you want. If however, your goal is to promote an actual free market system that promotes quality craftsmanship over cute advertizing and other gimicks then you are in luck as well.
As the market begins to show even more signs that it is tired of shoddy and sloppy software at massively bloated prices and requirements then you can bet MS will respond. Those that hate MS will not like this... those that simply wish to have choice and quality (and reasonable prices) have about a 33% chance of liking it. 33% goes to MS successfully using its FUD machine and strong arm tactics to sway the weak willed to once again set up an empire of bloatware and crashware. Crackers will rejoice at this as it will be literally a virtual playground. The last 33% goes to the very real possibility of government intervention (most likely all under a nice soft blanket of "good intentions" at least initially). Government needs no explanation just as human physiological responses and limitations need no explanation into modern context if one studies history... some things just are, the wise learn to avoid, adapt and overcome.
And money too!
--I'm just amazed all the time when I read you "need" a 1 gig or larger mghz rating to be cool or something. I'm runnin linux just great on an old 200PP machine, the only real thing I had to do was stick some more ram in it. For workers/clerks in an office? No massive full upgrade or new computer is needed I would think. And even if they *think* it's needed they should milk those older machines dry, this is the age of cutting costs and getting efficient. Innovation is great-where it's REALLY needed. The OS upgrade to linux? Yep, I think it stands a good chance of being a smooth move for them. But the hardware? Unless there's a specific graphic need or some other exotic task, there's no real need.
Sick of gentoo zealots throwing plugs in completely unrelated topics? Me too!
Sick of people being dicks about other people's choice of distribution? me too!
My maternal grandmother is considering the possibility of switching to Linux. Citing increased budgetary pressure from her retired lifestyle, she thinks moving to Linux might save enough money to get her dentures professionally cleaned. Truly this means Linux is well on its way to being the #1 Operating System on the PLANET!
Oregon is moving toward passage of a measure that would direct all government agencies to 'consider' open source products when making IT procurement decisions.
While that is not an outright requirement, cash strapped states will invariably start looking deeply at their commitments to proprietary software.
My state government is screwed. We are the home of the Beast.
"Rocky Rococo, at your cervix!"
With better information and ability of individuals to provide a check on mass media, this will create standards that go beyond price. It's great that people consider Linux because it's cheaper than Windows, but perhaps that's not the full story of what's going on.
Linux wins on two fronts. Not only is it cheaper, but it's also better. Let's use an analogy of food as an example and consider Microsoft as the McDonald's of the computer industry. Just about everyone goes there every once in a while. It has cheap prices, and the food tastes good, just like Windows used to be relatively cheap, and looked good too. It served the lowest common denominator.
Now, however, we have this new kind of food coming out, and a new consciousness about health, nutrition, the environment, first, and price in a very distant second. This food _simultaneously_ redifines the playing fieild in terms of both price and quality. Sure, it has some way to go before it's complete, but the people that are aware of the ingredients going in absolutely know that it will crush other competition once it comes out of the oven. It's composed of the most fantastic, nutritious, tasty, ecosystem-friendly ingredients. Some of us are tasting the ingredients going in, and while the end users (or customers) are saying "we don't want a meal composed of just boring x", we respond, no, this is just one ingredient in the most fantastic potluck ever conceived.
Those that don't bring something to the table may eat anyway, but if they are allowed to bring something to the table, it should be at least as good as what's already there. Some redundancy is ok, like two different types of the same dish, but overall people try to coordinate so that there can be sufficient variety to solve the main categories.
We can get the basic requirements out of the way, and then start allowing for more specialized dishes. Then, certain people can start skipping producing meals if they have an idea for a dish that requires much more time to prepare, but will be an incredible treat once it arrives.
If meals can be taken care of, maybe other types of goods can come next, and people can skip producing for meals as long as people trust that they're producing other goods. We may not require perfection in terms of allocation of services, but be satisfied with evidence of effort. It all depends on the infrastructure to coordinate such a feat. Perhaps this is what we're working on now.
Hmm.. nice new 2.5Ghz machines!!!
;-)
That's why it happened. Well, maybe not..but it's an interesting conspiracy theory anyway.
Speaking as an lowly web developer, I was very pleased to have my machine upgraded from a 733 to a 2.4GHz during the upgrade of the rest of our users. I'm only text editing!?!?! DivX is *much* better now though.....
It's the senior geeks who like having the latest and greatest who make the final descisions to upgrade though, so maybe there is something in it after all...
Just don't blame lowly me, ok?
Look, enough is enough. How many stories about X considering a switch from win* to *linux are going to be posted by Slashdot editors ?. This is just ridiculous. First of all, GNU/Linux is enough into the mainstream as to waste time with "potential users" stories. Second, and more importantly, many companies, governments, agencies, etc., try to fscking negotiate with MS for a discoung and this is way they announce that they are "considering" Linux. I mean, come on, this is not a secret ! Let's get real. Let's talk about real users using Linux for real. There are plenty :-)
What's it going to do? Stop BSOD'ing because it can't phone home to the mothership?
It's not like it's an evolving platform that users aren't familiar with. It's damn near a decade old.
If it's working, why upgrade? Seriously. Why?
And M$ is finding out with WinXP that folks hate the upgrade merry-g-round. Notice that the next version of WinXX is Win2003? XP was/is a flop that corporate/gov't buyers shunned. Because the don't need to upgrade. But M$ probably thinks (hopes?) that it's the childish Fischer-Price interface.
They wouldn't need the upgrade if the voters had struck down the DOR during the last election.
I've hit Karma 50 and gotten a Score:5, Troll... I win!
If the DOR is thinking about it, then so much the citys and other public / goverment offices. As soon as one jumps the ship, the others will follow.
Just hope they know what they're doing.
III.IIVIVIXIIVIVIIIVVIIIIXVIIIXIIIIIIIIVIIIIVVIII
I work for the MA Dept. of Public Health.
/never/ go for this. They will have a hissy fit a the thought of having Linux on the network, as it's too 'insecure'. Next, MA Govt. has a massive Exchange system going on, I doubt Linux/SMTP will plug into this nicely, WAN people (who also do a lot with the Exchange system) will also have a major issue with this.
I forsee a lot of problems with this. The state WAN people, will
Also, why oh why after pushing for years over at DPH for a Linux standard (big step for adoption), DOR is going to start doing it? Feh.
Again, I am not speaking in any official sense, just my gut feelings. I do hope they pull it off though.
Objects in the blog are closer then they ap
Why upgrade to anything? Windows 95 should work fine as a basic workstation to do whatever writing and reports you need. I can't see why you would need to upgrade to anything. I guess I can see how it would be a big deal to the nazish open source zealots who are appalled by the use of evil closed source programs. But all in all there really is no reason they should need to upgrade. Seems like a waste of the state's already feeble funds.
./ disclamer for the thin-skinned: Btw, don't get me wrong. I am an open source advocate myself, but some people get a little nuts about it imho. But feel free to +1 troll if you must.
-
http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares
Not so fast with Linux Terminal Server Project you could just purchase one heavy duty box and run terminals on all the existing hardware. Also, CodeWeavers CrossOver Office would let you run MS Office remotely within Linux. Personally, I'd maintain a base image on the PCs from a central server but I'm sure there's more than just Office to consider here. What other apps do they use inhouse and can they be run without the need for Windows?
Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws-Plato
One P4 computer can serve dozes of linux X window terminals terminals, smoothly running the latest OpenOffice and Evolution replacing MS Office and Outlook, and saving productivity loss because of better uptimes, less software failures and virus inmunity.
Even if they have 10BaseT, LTSP.org will work OK 8)
If they're still using windows 95, how old is their hardware?
They probably want to buy some new hardware.
Even $500 can get you a pretty good new PC these days.
I agree support is not needed. But almost all IT departments everywhere are too afraid to let go of support contracts, even if never used, for the simple reason that if there is even one problem then they will be blamed and fired.
That's why perfectly working systems that could run for years more get upgraded and thus degrade in usefulness.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Come on, the MA Dept. of Revenue? It's news when an entire government switches to Linux, but do we need to hear about every little subgroup that considers the switch? How about a yearly round-up of Linux's use in government instead?
And the lights all went out in Massachusetts.
160,000 Join Massachusetts Do-Not-Call List
Massachusetts Appealing Microsoft Ruling
given the recent law passed in Massachusetts, which prevents people from just throwing away old computers and monitors....
Pretty impressive...
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
If you dont have workstations to make test, you can still have fun looking at a simple examplethis is NOT exactly how ltsp.org works, but you can look at the little windows running simultaneous X sessoins with simultaneous open office documents and web browsers working at the same time from the same machine.
More workstations? more RAM, the cheapest NEW computer is well over the regular specs for a good server, there is absolutelly no better solution.
Typos in the subject suck the most.
The third group, system administrators, don't really count. True, they have the highest learning curve, and they're success if often tied to a particular platform, but since they're upgrading from Windows 95, they're screwed no matter what you do...
In short, the greater the number of power users, the more of a problem you will have. I'm guessing MA Dept of Revenue has a lot of data entry clerks, accountants, lawyers, and bureaucrats (all group 1 types). The people who maintain the databases and manage the data (group 2 types) will be greatly affected, but they'll probably be pleased to get away from Win95. And as usual, the SysOp gets the shaft.
My father is a blogger.
Consider the long term and it's effect on training. Retraining staff is definitly a short term expensive but over the course of, say, 10 years I think it would be a wise investment. I hear many people argue over the costs of running linux systems compared to running windows systems, and with 90% of computer users (and techies) familar with one and not the other it is easy to argue that Microsoft maintenance costs may be less. But imagine if Linux continues to pick up users (and techies).....the software cost won't be rising and the training costs can only decrease.
I'm had enough of references to people/companies *considering* one thing or another.
Actions speak louder than words. All this *consideration* to me is just a bit of smoke and mirrors to get Microsoft sales team to give them a better deal.
If I was just about to purchase thousands of Windows licenses, before I met with the Microsoft sales droid I'd also be sreading the FUD that I'm *considering* Linux.
Think about it.
There is an option to leave one old windows 95 machine on the network with VNC running as server and logged in as guest user.
any user can then run:put the password and convert any files from weird propietary formats to an MS format that open office can handle.
A little web server with related help, and you are all set to let users help themselves 8)
so that we can all admire its stony security.
Ah, how soon they forget....
- The IP stack can be remotely crashed.
- Unencrypted password hashes are sent across the wire.
- The password cache can be decrypted and read by anyone on the machine.
And this is just off the top of my head.
The important thing here is that weaknesses in the networking protocols are not just bugs that can be fixed, they're design flaws. Microsoft just have not backported the most recent RPC stack to W95, so there's no way you can get proper network security. (Why would they bother? It's not like they care about customers who haven't paid their upgrade tax.)
- Upfront Cost (This is what I see and what I pay).
- User Friendlieness (I want to think I am at least getting someting for the money).
- Stability (I dont want to loose company productivity much).
- Speed (I want the program do more and in less time then my old program).
- Small Size (I dont want to buy new harddrives).
- Security (I am a small buisness who want to hack into me anyways or I am a large buisness and I am behind a firewall).
- Platform independence (We use X and we need it to run on X and there is no imeadeate plans to change).
This is a really a sad set of orders because this order is a very short sided view on the software they want. I normally recomend this order for Best TCO. (The () are my view on why these are important in this order)If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
... during a town meeting. He was a very smooth talker, along with Lt. Governor Kerry Healey, but the way he wants to reduce the state defecit is by cutting local aid. That's the primary mechanism in his plans.
True, he made many suggestions, like reducing the number of state owned SUVs in favor of Civic Hybrids, but he drives a state SUV himself. Also, I never saw anything come of many of his "common sense" initives to reduce state spending.
So, while I would love to see Linux replace '95 for the DOR, I wouldn't assocaite it with Romney's desire to reduce spending. Don't get me wrong, he's a good governor, but I still wouldn't coalate the two.
CitrusTV (http://www.citrustv.net): the Nation's Oldest & Largest Entirely Student-Run Television Station
Installing Linux won't get rid of all your problems. It'll trade your current problems for a brand new set of (hopefully much nicer) problems. -- Like "what do we do with the money we saved on Licensing? (Software development? tax cuts? (better) training?). You'll also have the obvious change-of-platform issues, but possibly less so than going from '95 to XP.
(I still can't get over the idea of having to worry about getting permission to upgrade my RAM...)
OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.
Just boot the current win 95 machines as they are from a floppy, from a CD-ROM, from the hard drive or from an EPROM chip attached to the lan card, no more modifications to the clients
The server will just have enough RAM to handle the load because the cheapest NEW processor is just overpowered 8)
mitt's gubanatorial campaign is currently negotiating with m$ over unlicensed software provided by a company closely associated with his son and the mormon church.
I've always thought this "retraining cost" argument was a ruse.
I mean, what exactly are the retraining costs when the majority of users utilize maybe three applications? On the whole, office workers don't utilize "advanced" features available in the software anyway.
For example: how many secretaries are using Word Styles to author documents? Even though Word Styles are available, and take some amount of training to understand, if they're not being used, why worry about it?
What it boils down to is the applications. If those applications are available, and operate in a similar way, it doesn't matter what platform they are running on. The overhead involved in user training is much ado about nothing.
Now, don't get me wrong, there's a number of reasons why continuing down the Microsoft treadmill could make more sense (for now). But retraining isn't one of them.
Notes From Under *nix: blas.phemo.us
Being Taxachusetts, you would think they would just tax the surrounding states to cover their licensing costs!
-- Many men would appreciate a woman's mind more if they could fondle it
No wonder our (Massachusetts) economy has been in the shitter for years! We have Windows 95 handling our financial data! I thought it was all due to shitty politics and shittier politicians, but now the real culpret show up: Shitty software!
"There is no knowledge that is not power" -Mortal Kombat 3
You have obviously never worked for a company that actually cares about the money they spend. Most companies that actually survive have asset and expense control. This would be one of those controls.
But then again, there is always publishing applications with citrix, so I suppose its viable...
I just wonder if their support costs are going to be higher. Finding 5 competant people to do Linux desktop support (and retaining them) might not be easy (or cheap).
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
What about Palladium? If every new PC shipped is a Palladium system, then MA will just have to switch back to Windows anyway.
This space left intentionally blank.
I wish I had a buck for every time I asked a secretary what operating system their computer runs and they answered "Office 2000".
/mnt/winserver/docs.
Can you imagine training these people?
Secretary to IT person: Where are my documents?
IT person to Secretary: They are on
Secretary to IT person: What drive letter is that?
IT person to Secretary: AAARGH!{jumps out a window}
Yeah, i'm sure linux will be MUCH cheaper.
-ted
Office 97 runs fine on Windows XP Pro.
typical (uninformed) "linux bigot" (not you, the other guy).
For most businesses the cost of the actual software is only a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of technical support for the software over the years. Truth be told, your average user has an easier time and needs less help using Winblows and it's proprietary applications than Linux. This is mostly because of familiarity with the products at work and most likely home as well. So for a business, especially one with many non-technically savvy employees as I'm sure is the case here, it may make more sense to just pay for Windows.
Microsoft should hire me. I can write code that doesn't work faster than the guys they have doing it now.
I went to the link in the /. story. Isn't that a picture of the guy who busted Mitnick?
Best Buy can have you arrested
I'm sure that is what Microsoft 'teaches' in their classes, but that doesn't make it the law of the land. If you actually sign a License Agreement with them then you are correct. If both parties agree to a contract it is generally enforcable. But if I BUY a Gateway with Win98 on it I am perfectly within my rights to seperate the parts and dispose/reuse them as I see fit since I didn't LICENSE anything. So long as I do not violate Copyright I'm clear since I don't live in a UCITA state that makes click wrap EULAs enforcable. Whether I can break the copy restrictions in XP to exercise my rights and not violate the DMCA is a matter that the courts have yet to tackle.
;)
Remember, a click wrap EULA isn't worth the photons it is painted on your eyeballs with in most of the world, even if Bill sez so or Balmer leaps around the room yelling "Licenses, Licenses, Licenses".
And I'm even in the clear when I buy surplus OEM licenses at flea markets (1st Saturday in Dallas for example) since I never signed the OEM agreement. Now Dell & Compaq probably ARE in violation, but that is between them and Microsoft.
Democrat delenda est
How many times have you heard the saying, "Money Talks,and Bullshit Walks"?
Well, here we have a story in which a smart administrator has become fed up with Microsoft's assertion that "the more you spend, the more you save." "Software Assurance" is an insult to even the feeble minded, let alone astute individuals in IT and upper management.
The economic crunch is getting very crunchy now, and the more people hear about the virtues of Open Source software, the more they ask themselves, "Could it work for us?" We will be seeing many more stories, soon, in which IT managers tell Microsoft to take their BS for a long walk. But be ready - - Microsoft WILL respond with lower prices because they can, and have, used predatory pricing before. You can't underprice Linux, but you can make people think twice about switching. Still, it's going to be fun to watch.
It's only funny until someone gets hurt. Then, it's hilarious.
The cost of training the average user isn't that big of a deal. How hard is it to click on an icon? I understand that they do some of that in Windows also. All word processors work in a similar way. A spreadsheet is a spreadsheet. Email is email.
All staff have to be trained at some point to use all these things. Clicking in Windows or clicking in Linux, it is about the same. Training to use a word processor under Linux is no more expensive than training to use a word processor under windows.
The real training is not so much with the average user but with the support staff. Linux is very different under the hood than Windows. But again staff must be trained and retrained every time that Microsoft upgrades their server software. The new active directory is way different than the normal domain model.
The question is not whether the training is expensive the question is do you want to train to use Linux or Windows.
With Windows it seems like you get lead by the nose down the path of expensive proprietary software. That doesn't happen with Linux.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
Seems the cost of the software is only part of the TCO for an XP upgrade. What are the chances of XP running on those old Win 95 machines? My guess is that $600 figure includes the hardware upgrades necessary to run XP bloatware.
A good friend of mine is an IT manager for a government agency and he has told me quite a bit about it. In his County which contains a major city all the computer and network maintenance is contracted out. The only support the internal people do is for custom written or in-house software. Of course they do handle the simplest issues so the county doesn't have to pay $300 an hour to have someone explain to a user that she can't plug an outlet strip into itself.
But my point is that finding people to do Linux desktop support is as easy as calling several service vendors and getting competetive bids. Then it is the vendor's responsibility to find and train good people just as they do now. And the people the vendor sends over with Linux expertise are likely to be more technically astute than the average numbnuts they keep around to suppport MS Windows shops.
First off, to say that everyone only uses Office and email programs is naive. The Office and Email is the easy part, especially with outright knockoffs a la Evolution. But many govt. entities will already have huge investments in 3rd party line of business applications that are Windows-only. Replacing _these_ kinds of programs (not office and email), and the subsequent loss of productivity and poor customer service is what makes retraining expensive. Also, should they just trash their business relationships with these companies who may not have the means or demand or desire to create a port of their programs?
:)
Secondly, in many state and local governments, employees are required by the state or the feds to use particular software for reporting, fund transfer, etc. Sometimes the other government entity only supplies Windows binaries. Their support even on their own Windows programs ranges from grossly incompetent to altogether nonexistant. Throw trying to run it on some other platform into the mix and they are not even going to talk to you. This isn't something that lower-level government entities have any say in. They can't choose to not use these programs, especially when it comes to funding.
Thirdly, IMO the choice and quality of 3rd party apps for other platforms just isn't there yet. If you have a large group of talented engineers that have used Autodesk products for years and are well-versed and highly efficient using them, what products could you offer them as an viable alternative? (and maintain a straight face).
I'm just amazed that Windows 95 was such a long-lasting solution in Massachusetts. MS should be commended for continuing support for W95 as long as they did. Well I gotta go now; I have to go upgrade all my Redhat 7 boxes that EOL this month.
As long as time has any monetary value above zero, something that requires time can not be free.
People can have more surplus time than money and still consider their time worth something. Only in the case where you consider your time worth nothing (for whatever reason) can Linux be truly free.
Of course everything else requires time, too, and they don't just have costs, they have benefits presumably, so that's where total cost (and value) of ownership calculations need to begin.
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
At the company I work for, we were in a similar boat with many old Windows 95 installations, with replacement hardware only having drivers for Windows 98 or higher, and so on. Last summer we made the decision to move from Windows to Linux based primarily on the Windows upgrade cost.
The replacement consisted of RedHat Linux (7.x until 8.x came out), Gnome, OpenOffice and Mozilla. The choice of RedHat over other distros was made more because the other techs were new to Linux too and I might not be there all the time. The servers still run Slackware >:)
The results have been great and the staff had far fewer problems than expected and interestingly 98% of the tech calls that come in are from the on the road sales guys having problems using XP, which came preloaded on their laptops.
--- Commission free trading & free stock up to $500 - use http://share.robinhood.com/kelvinp6
" I have to agree. I work for the Insurance Board for the state of Alabama, and I have personally worked with the WAN/LAN support people. They are very set in their ways in Alabama as well (ie.: we were forced to buy 10BaseT ethernet equipment because the WAN folks said that nobody can purchase anything that runs faster than 16mb Token Ring). "
This is were a strong LEADER, plus the weakening economy come into play. Someone who can say "IT SHALL BE DONE" and make it stick. The economy as well as previous successful Linux deployments, puts pressure on the IT departments to justify their decisions, instead of relying on the status quo for their continued existance. Those who change will be here when the economy turns around, the ones who don't will be just another statistic in an already crowded unemployment line.
She also reminds that licensing costs are linked to "buying behavior;" in particular, the more a customer buys and upgrades, the bigger the discount.
Ignorance is freedom, etc. etc.
goodie!
there's no place like ~
We're talking about Mass, here. It's pronounced "retahded."
"we were forced to buy 10BaseT ethernet equipment because the WAN folks said that nobody can purchase anything that runs faster than 16mb Token Ring"
"This is were a strong LEADER, plus the weakening economy come into play."
It clearly appears that they do indeed have a strong leader in their IT department. Someone who can make a decision, make it stick, and nobody with any authority questions it. Some IT manager doesn't have a whole department of folks saying "you are wrong, and you need to reverse your policy, because it is counterproductive and detracts value from the organization". Naming names. Well-reasoned correspondence to decision makers.
Instead these people obey the rules and whine about it on slashdot. Cowards.
This is what i'm finding really frustrating with Red Hat now. (and why I love my Debian boxes) I was looking into RedHat network and talked with a sales rep. All RedHat X.x releases are only going to be supported for 1 year from release date, including SECURITY updates. This basicly means if you are supporting a few dozen machiens (and your lazy like me), its forced upgrades once a year. No promises of clean upgrades or backwards compatibility mind you.
:P
UNLESS you go with the Advanced Server or (to be announced) Workstation. These run as much as MS server licences, but you get 5 year durability and support.
Blech.
Hate it when I can't remember my password
"Replacing _these_ kinds of programs (not office and email), and the subsequent loss of productivity and poor customer service is what makes retraining expensive."
You mean, as opposed to the wonderous productivity, and great customer service we're getting from government now? What planet did you say you were from?
Mit Romney's adversary in the gubernatorial race (Shannon O'Brien) used Staroffice on all their hardware to cut costs. I know this because I supplied all the computers.
Nothing really newsworthy, I guess, it's just late and I'm bored.
"We get lease documents, legal notices, business proposals, ad nauseum, in word or excel format. If you can't read it, you limit your professional image and connectivity."
So have one install of openoffice to route office documents through to save as a format Koffice can read. This should work until Koffice gets its own filters. Also, you could politely request that people submitting such things submit them as RTF or PDF documents. What's wrong with that?
"K-office is compatable with k-office. Open/Star office at least has basic word compatability and functionality. Please, microsoft may suck for their draconian EULA's, their extremely high prices, their business model, etc. But they make a good office suite. Plus, like it or not, it's the world standard."
If everyone keeps treating them like a world standard, they will be forever. Someone has to begin the move away. I say if their EULA sucks, their prices suck, and their business ethics suck, I don't want to do business with them. Politely ask people who wish you to consider their documents to send them in an open format, and just be ready to process the ones that don't comply through openoffice. Don't cave in to the monopoly just because they make a good product, and ignore the rest of what they do. They'll keep right on doing it. They need to hear the $ vote walking away - nothing else has any meaning to them. Maybe it is hard to do that, but that's all the more reason to do it. Don't let Microsoft control how you do business. Good products do not excuse or justify bad practices, and Microsoft has to be taught that lesson. Not teaching it will only make things worse.
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
When every word you say is recorded, it's not hard to find stupid things that were said by leaders.
Maybe, maybe not. But when you're a fucking dumbass and every word you say is recorded, it's guaranteed:
"I understand that the unrest in the Middle East creates unrest throughout the region."--Washington, D.C., March 13, 2002
"I want to thank the dozens of welfare to work stories, the actual examples of people who made the firm and solemn commitment to work hard to embetter themselves."--Washington, D.C., April 18, 2002
"Over 75 percent of white Americans own their home, and less than 50 percent of Hispanos and African Americans don't own their home. And that's a gap, that's a homeownership gap. And we've got to do something about it."--Cleveland, Ohio, July 1, 2002
"There's no bigger task than protecting the homeland of our country."
"The federal government and the state government must not fear programs who change lives, but must welcome those faith-based programs for the embetterment of mankind."--Stockton, Calif., Aug. 23, 2002
If you have no command of your native tongue, you can't communicate. If you can't communicate, you can't be an effective leader. The man is a hopeless dunce. Some things are beyond defending.
Also, this "inventing the Internet" bullshit has been explained time and time again. Only a partisan hack willfully ignorant of the record would persist in spreading lies like this so long after the 2000 campaign.
Don't get me started on Quayle, either.
--
Freeper Logic
The cost of training the average user isn't that big of a deal. How hard is it to click on an icon?
This proves you are an idiot, or at least inexperienced.
Let's say you want to do a spreadsheet. You see a login screen, white on black, that says:
Red Hat Linux release 7.3
Kernel 2.4.9-31 on an i586
system login:
This is friendly? Where's the icon? Ok, so you figure out how to login, and you see this:
[user@site.com user] $
Again, where are the icons? You finally figure out how to get into XWindows, you get XWindows set up, and let's just be nice and assume that you have Open Office set up.
You have a printer there. How do you set up the drivers?
You'd be amazed at what a big issue printer drivers can be. Many printers are listed as working through an emulation - which means that the capabilities of the printer are shorn down to the lowest common denominator with another printer. Of course, your epson lq-2500 doesn't say "IBM Proprinter II" anywhere on it, so how do you get your printer to work??
And then, you have floppies. You have a spreadsheet file you want to take home. You have a disk in your hand. How do you copy the file to the disk?
This is what's called "training" and there is a definite, and real learning curve. A cost towards getting all these things figured out.
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
That's what I like about laws here. In Germany there are no "OEM" versions. It is legal to re-sell your OEM versions, it is even legal to sell a "recovery" version - and if it doesn't work, it is legal to burn a copy of a full version and sell it together with the recovery license.
ct magazine once had a detailed explanation of what files from a full retail Windows you'd need to turn a recovery version into a full version.
That said, sites like EBay are "of course" bribed by MS and refuse you your right to sell software - with unnecessary consequences: I know of a Debian CD reseller who got threatened by EBay because he "was advertising and/or selling unlicensed software".
Home Page
I read all the level 3 and up responses, and a few of the lower threshold responses, and no one mentioned:
audit costs
audit compliance costs
audit fines (averaging about $150,000 per individual instance (computer/application), according to the bsa, prior to negotiated lower fines)
Why is it ok to leave this out of the total cost of ownership figures?
Could someone please explain to a stupid Englishman why you have a special department whose responsibilities are taxation, underground storage tanks and child support?
I can sort of understand putting taxation and benefits together, but why only child support? Who does the other types of support or don't you have any others in Massachusetts? And as for the storage tanks, huh? And why only underground ones? What do they do with these tanks? Inspect them? Tax them? And what about above ground storage tanks? Presumably they come under some completely different department such as Education or Veteran Affairs!!!!!
IIRC, the biggest training problems when Largo switched were along the lines of "How do I set my wallpaper" and "How do I take my documents home?"
I work with electronic tax filing systems, and theirs isn't the best. It has a number of problems that could be easily solved by moving to Linux. In fact, a number of states have systems with long-time technical troubles that could be solved in very short order by moving to a more communications-capable OS such as ANY Unix.
they'd have thought about this at work before upgrading 1300 machines from win 3.11 to win2k.. most users here don't even know what OS they use, or what a start-menu is.. It'd be just the same to install linux and give them openoffice. they'd only see a text-writer and a print-button.. and it'd be a whole lot cheaper...
Don't kid yourself that you'll avoid vendor lockin with Linux. It just changes the form of lockin. In particular:
There may be any number of good reasons to use Linux. Vendor lockin is not necessarily one of them.
Multiple medium duty boxes. It's cheaper.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
For bombs on Irak, but no money to spend on computers for its young generation.
What a shame....
Exactly! Flip the coin, and have a look at M$' unwillingness/inability to accept documents from other office suites.
If an entire state government, let alone the feds, switched to an Open Source office suite that happened to be incompatible with MS Office but worked within all the government ops just fine, you can bet that MS would be doing the headless chicken thing to give compatibility to KOffice!
This is exactly what will be happening in MA, because any private business that wants to do business with the government will have to adapt to that government's, i.e. the client's standards, or they'll find somebody who does! It would be the same thing if, say, General Motors decided to switch to Ninnle Linux and KOffice.
There. "Radical difference" gone. What the hell are you talking about?
How about we de-FUD this article by reducing the price of Windows XP to a realistic level. For god's sake we can buy it in CANADA for under $200. And that's in our play money.
Why not just use a graphical login? And you called the previous poster "inexperienced". Unbelievable!
Reality is defined by the maddest person in the room
Nope, that won't work. The problem is not the users, but people called "tech journalists". Those people are going to use words like "old fashioned" and "8 years old interface" about it.
And as long as people don't really know anything about Linux/Gnome/KDE except what they read in ComputerWorld, you are not going to get any converts.
The problem is that it's a little hard to call Qwest back and say "hey, the form you sent us to fill out and mail back to you is an excel spreadsheet. Did you ever consider sending it as an RTF or a .txt file?
sig?
Over and over I hear it's not just the cost of software but the overall support that costs more when supporting a Linux system. Rubbish I tell them. I've had to support nearly 100 of these systems and it's not that difficult. They just run and keep running. How much support besides the occasional upgrade/path do you really need?
Some people will believe anything these days.
Has Comcast disconnected your Internet account? Same here. You can read about it at http://comcastissue.blogspot.com
This also comes at a very good time as the new governor of Massachusetts faces a scandal over his campaign committee running unlicensed Microsoft software. Regardless of any merits of using Linux, at least that scandal would not be possible for Linux.
That was supposed to have happened two years ago, along with a host of innovations that would have brought the world together. Instead we got George Bush's version of 1984.
I'm responding to an AC.
You're right. A politically influential family can completely override and invalidate the political process.
They have the unrestricted power to bully the voters into supporting their candidate during the primaries and can force their whims on the electorate.
They are able to manipulate the voters in the actual election so that millions of people who wanted to vote for a different candidate actually voted for the influential families' candidate.
They can subvert the elections and the courts to shove their puppet candidate into office.
They are rich and politically powerful, and cannot be overcome. Resistance is futile. We have been assimilated.
Politically influential families influence the candidate pool, and can help motivate fence-sitters and party-liners to vote for their preferred candidate, but they do not control the elections.
Morons do not get elected to the presidency.
You can like or dislike the sitting president, but don't call him a moron.
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
s/loose/lose/ :-)
... but both Office 97 and Office 2K run fine on XP Pro. I'm running 2k right now at work, and I ran 97 at home (on Win XP Pro) with no problems.
(moves to protect karma)
Not that I'm against switching to Linux or anything...
Sean
As Governnor Romney continues to cut the budget, this suggestion deserves careful consideration. I'm not saying it's a solution, but think it's ironic that even as the state is suing Microsoft for antitrust violations, Windows remains the default operating system for governmental computers.
Write the Governor's office at GOffice@state.ma.us and let him know that there's the potential for savings and positive publicity from even considering the move to open source solutions. Takes 5 minutes, could make a difference.
That's great news!
this is a new venture. Pro/E has had support for Irix in the past, but their latest version (wildfire) now includes support for Redhat Linux 7.3 through a partnership with HP.
It's not perfect, as RedHat is up to 8, but it's at least something, and PTC says they are working to support more versions of Linux.
Oh I'm an idiot am I? Lets see who is the idiot here.
"Let's say you want to do a spreadsheet. You see a login screen, white on black, that says:
Red Hat Linux release 7.3
Kernel 2.4.9-31 on an i586
system login:"
I have used Red Hat and Mandrake. The normal logon looks very much like Windows 2000 login. No big deal. Linux IS NOT DOS LIKE ANYMORE. Perhaps you never have heard of KDE or Gnome? You comment is stupid.
"You have a printer there. How do you set up the drivers?"
I use Mandrake. The printer is detected and setup automatically.
"And then, you have floppies. You have a spreadsheet file you want to take home. You have a disk in your hand. How do you copy the file to the disk?"
Well gee, that's a tough one! I would suggest putting the floppy into the floppy drive then (now listen closely because it gets complicated here) click on the floppy icon and drag and drop the icon of you document to the place that you want it.
"This is what's called "training" and there is a definite, and real learning curve. A cost towards getting all these things figured out."
Yes there is. Some configurations of KDE use a single click instead of a double click. Real tough stuff.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
Umax site gives info on how to update Win95 to use their USB scanners.
quote from their site:
Provided you are running Windows 95B (OSR2) or later, you can install the USB Supplement from your Microsoft CD-ROM. The file - USBSUPP.EXE - can be installed from the D:\Other\USB folder (where D is the driver letter of your CD-ROM drive).
When you install the USB Supplement you should be aware of a minor bug in Microsoft's installation process, documented in their support article Q192193. After rebooting the computer (prompted at the end of the Supplement install process) your PC may detect a USB device connected to the computer, and prompt for the drivers. By default Windows will try to search your CD-ROM for the drivers (where they won't be found), however they are already installed on your PC. Simply change the driver path of the "Detect New Hardware" dialogue to your \windows\system directory (normally on drive C). The files required are openhci.sys, uhcd.sys, usbcamd.sys, usbd.sys and usbhub.sys.
So, Win95 supports usb devices. Satisfied?
Touche, troll. Touche
:) There's not much accounting for what I can say after serious sleep deprivation... (I know, excuses, escuses ;)
:) I have only a meager Athlon 750 that I've been using with abiword for quite some time and I've had no problem persiting without MS office. I've actually never messed with openoffice, but I've used Koffice from time to time and have no complaints other than the occasional crash, and the fact that it didn't read some MS excel sheet someone sent me once (but it was a while ago, perhaps they've fixed it, gnumeric works just fine for me). Before that I used to run wordperfect for linux; first on a pentium 90 and then on a k6-2 400, and I never had any problems (though I know that's not opensource).
Yeah... I read it too fast, thought I saw "buy a lot more" instead of "spend a lot on", and proceeded to say a bunch of other dumb stuff
But anyway, what really made me fly into a rage was the notion that we must depend on MS office and that opensource office products aren't worth shit. At least, noting my lack of acountability, that was the implication I percieved
Because word is the world standard for written documents in the professional business world.
I work for OSU's CIS department and at times I also get word documents given to me . Abiword handles them just fine, but that's beside the point: Why is it that people feel the need to send something meant to be read in an editable format? I mean, people who I would think would know better send me word documents. I wouldn't know this being that I havn't touched word in a very long time, but is it all that difficult to make a pdf from a word document?
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson
So, Win95 supports usb devices. Satisfied?
I still doubt that UMAX will give you support if you call them with a Win95 problem. And what will you tell them if they instruct you to install the latest hardware drivers from the motherboard manufacturer? "I can't seem to find any Win95 USB drivers for my KT400 chipset motherboard."
As long as you don't mind being self-supporting, or as long as you can find vendors willing to support problems you find when running under Win95, then yes you can run stuff under 95.
You are perfectly happy to run drivers from 1997 or whenever, and I prefer new drivers. We don't agree. And it doesn't look like either of us is about to convince the other to change his mind.
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
Except that
1) Not every system comes pre-configured with graphical sign on. In the case of one installation, a graphical installer caused problems with the intended use of the POS system for which the Linux system was purchased. Eventually, this was made to work, but the time spent making it work is "migration cost".
2) Great. So *some* printers are set up automatically. Are you willing to say that you can go down to your local office supplies store or X-Mart, buy the $49 USB WinPrinter and it'll work on your 733T Mandrake system?
I didn't think so.
3) Floppy - here, you go overboard. You're presuming that somebody set up the system (/etc/fstab) so that you (the user) has permission to mount the floppy.
But this permission has to be specifically granted - and it isn't always. (Sure wasn't in several situations I've seen as a consultant) Also, you assume we're talking about Mandrake. Do your assumptions hold true for Red Hat 7.2, 7.0, 6.2? Suse? Gentoo? Slackware? What about when you're using KDE 3? KDE 2? KDE 1.x? Gnome? Ice WM?
There are a zillion other, similar types of issues that come up, take time to work around, and cost money.
You are looking at things from the inside, as a Linux user/zealot, armed with your XYZ favorite distro. It's a small and confortable world. It's very different when you are working with people who have to write down the sequence to boot up a computer!
Understand, I'm a Linux advocate myself! I write software on/for Linux, I use it as my standard desktop (and love it!) and do everything I can to get it used.
But zealotism won't get you far when the O/S doesn't matter, you are dealing with computer-neophytes who have trouble pointing a mouse, and the business owner simply wants stuff that works as quickly and cheaply as possible.
This is where you are inexperienced.
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
I know all about that. I work for a gvt, as a consultant. And I honestly say that anyone that contracts out thier IT is fricken stupid. Having said that, where I work has finally started being smart about it, and contract employees will only be used on a project basis. Fortunately for me, I only do projects anyway- they just ended up sticking me with support because they cant hire anyone competant who knows how to do technical stuff. But now Im out and back on projects (hopefully).
Back to the point, the problem is you end up spending at LEAST twice as much money on contract employees than running the show yourself. But, I guess if you cant run it right, hopefully you can find somebody who can.
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
What a crock of shit!
/etc/fstab table.
Every distro that I know sets up to boot into a GUI by default. Your antidotal evidence of a system that had problems is not by any stretch of the imagination what the average person will run into. There are system that Windows 2K has problems with also. Not many just as there are not many systems that have trouble with Linux.
I would not be surprised if the "winprinter" that you mentioned was supported being that you mentioned that it is a USB printer. Why not mention winmodems. They have missing chips for which the Windows OS must provide the functionality. Very hard to fight some of Microsoft's tactics.
"Floppy - here, you go overboard. You're presuming that somebody set up the system (/etc/fstab) so that you (the user) has permission to mount the floppy."
Are you flippin nuts? Gee, can you print from to your Windows 2K printer. You assume that the administrator set it up so that you would have permission to access that printer!
Like I said Mandrake detected and set up my printer so that all users have access. No one had to flippin' tweak the
Can Linux be configured to make it hard for the user? Sure, but so can Windows 2K. By default most distros make it easy now. Linux has come a very long way toward user friendliness.
I am looking at things from experience. Apparently you are looking at things from the point of view of a Microsoft zealot. Never wanting to admit that Linux is maturing into the platform of choice for the next generation.
Let me give you some advice. Try Mandrake. All distros will soon be at that level of ease of use. That's what the GPL is all about.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
I actually do care about stories like this. It is significant for users of linux. the FSF is based in MA. This could be a major win for Free software.
Obviously you have never worked in government. When the person in charge of ALL NETWORKING HARDWARE AND CABLE PLANT says that something is not allowed, very few state agencies have the ability to go over his/her head and purchase the equipment, especially when this person reviews and approves/denies any requests for the equipment. Believe me, I have been bucking the system for years, and usually I get to say, "Told you so," but it takes time and unfortunately wastes taxpayers money.
"It's a dog eat dog world out there, and I'm wearing Milk-Bone underwear."- Norm (from Cheers)
Most users nowadays are self-supporting ... or they have a kid/nephew/niece/uncle/inlaw who can fix up their box. Really, how many times a decade does the average user call tech support for anything?
WRT Florida, it's a coincidence, but I'd be willing to bet that voting irregularities occur in every state. Let's not even talk about Illinois! I can't speak to why it is that Florida was the one that was the focus this time. Perhaps it was because of his cousin's influence,
God, are you uninformed. Jeb is his bruddah, not his cousin. If this had happened during a Clinton election, and Roger C. was Guv of FLA you'd still be screeching like shit-flinging baboons, if you hadn't already gunned down everyone who disagreed with you. Palm it off as coincidence if you wish, but the man and his family are a fucking den of thieves. Did a former President have two sons wind up as governors of two of the four states with the most electoral college votes by accident? Another unremarkable coincidence, I'm sure.