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Strike on Iraq
According to CNN and various other news sources, Iraq is now under attack by
the US. Here is a link to the current story running at CNN right now, but there's really not much except that it has started. CT Cruise missiles launched against "Target of Opportunity". The full assault has not begun. CT The attack was specifically intended to take out Saddam. CT Saddam appeared on iraqi TV to condemn the US, and Iraqi missiles have been fired at Kuwait.
So far these are just surgical strikes against the leadership, not the big bombing yet.
but what's more important is the endgame. If you read the simulation the US had with Van Riper (who since resigned) it's going to be messier & longer than they think it will. How many casualties will the US get before they get cold feet?
BTW in the last Gulf War more American soldiers died in training and motor vehicle accidents than actual combat. Have the lessons of GWI been learned and things changed (by all accounts they are very similar to the way they were in '91).
Video Game cheats, hints a
I'm in the US Air Force stationed Germany at work right now and we've been watching CNN non-stop all night. There is definatly a nervous tension in the air right now. But we're ready. I may not totally agree with Bush but I'll do the job I was trained to do.
The psyops have been ongoing for a while... leaflets, Email, etc.
By contrast, this is an actual combat operation, with real ordinance being launched.
Let's hope this conflict is short and effective... hooah!
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
yeah, and in the post wwII days joseph stalin called winston churchill a war monger. churchill warned for years about hitler and what he was slyly trying to do... and knew that action had to be taken before he actually succeeded. look what happened. hitler rose to amass great power and it wasnt until japan struck us (as the history books say) that we actually realized that something had to be done.
lets look at this as hitler = sadam, churchill = bush.
now granted.. bush is no churchill... (america needs another churchill) but at least hes trying.
not a flame (as some have taken my previous posts.)
just my $0.02.
frank mattia
Post a bunch of links to high tech weapons like the ABL, and the new mobile artillery we have, then I thought, is this appropriate?
Some geek in Iraq, who just doesn't want to be involved in the fighting is sitting on his pc same as me, reading slashdot (if they're a fan) and probably see's thousands of people fleeing the streets, heading for the hills. Maybe he's just some student hoping to come here someday, but now has to face the horror of war.
Iraq is no stranger to war, the middle east has had ongoing wars as long as the bible has been written. Before USA intervention, who was the country trying to break up fights between middle eastern neighbors? Was it the british? the french?
I just heard a jet fly overhead, and it scares me, but that poor shmuck, who probably isn't too different than you or me, is hearing gunshots, sonic booms, and people running and screaming for cover.
On top of all that, his leader, wouldn't hesitate to turn the world into one giant jonestown. Rumors of anthrax, smallpox are everywhere.
If anyone is out there going through this shit right now, could you be brave please? Stay where you are and let the rest of us on slashdot know how you're doing?
Good luck if you're out there Iraqi slashdoter. May whoever you worship watch over you and keep you safe.
Same goes for the US troops too.
Now that the war is underway, the interesting thing to see will be the political fallout. Will the UN been seen as a worthless cause when the US unilaterally decides what is best for the world?
New Zealand's shopping & price comparison website
They didn't nearly bury us economically. They drove the US television manufacturers out of business and severely reduced auto companies' market share. Not to mention the fact that they sold us a lot of sushi and made the ninja mythos more important than the cowboy mythos. Other than that, they didn't do much to us.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
As someone from a country that never fights wars, I am confused by the constant pledges from Americans that they "support the troops", whether they're for or against the war.
Can anyone who uses this expression explain what it means? Is it just that you wish they will not be harmed? Or that they will be successful and reach their objectives? The second seems incompatible with with at least some reasons for being opposed to the war.
Obviously, "the troops" did not decide to start this war, so being for or against the war must be independent of your view of the troops. But that's an other issue.
I can't believe this got an "Informative" moderation, I didn't realise it was a hard fact that we have to support the troops, I must have missed that memo.
Actually, i don't have to pretend. I live in New York City, which is a very likely target of any reprisals. At the moment, i can hear helicopters passing near our apartment; this morning, one from the coast guard went by my balcony at eye level, while one of their patrol boats went tearing up the East River towards Long Island Sound. Police were searching cars at a checkpoint near my subway stop as i commuted home this evening.
For the most part, the post-9/11 nervousness had passed. Since the orange alert in the fall and the ramping up for war had begun, it all came back. It doesn't have the inevitability that's present in Baghdad, but it sure feels like life under threat.
JT
______ This mind intentionally left blank.
That in regards to the "explosions" they are "showing" happenning in Baghdad right now - that the camera seems to be facing away from them? I mean, you can see the flashes light up the side of the mosque in the center of the frame. Why are the cameras facing away? Are there cameramen with the cameras? Are they remote cams faced in one direction? Are they facing away for other reasons? The explosions are large, sound large, anyhow - why aren't we (ie, the American people) being allowed to see the destruction that some of us implicitly (and explicitly) support?
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
I'm amazed that the birds are still chirping.
From the explosions, it's clear that the military has now gone beyond the "Target of Convenience" point in time.
Unless I'm hearing explosions caused bya coup inside Iraq...
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
I really hope you commies stop bashing Bush for your own political purposes before you make yourselves look even worse.
this from CNN:
Pentagon: Strike was a "decapitation attack" to take out Saddam before the planned start of the war
If you continue to say Bush is a warmongeror (sp?), then you need to hang yourself. He's trying to avoid the war, even at this point.
Sure? They will be a kind of americans then. >;)
http://hausundhof.com
Well let's be honest.. what do you REALLY think a "rebuilding" will look like. With most of the nation already poor (not much running water, electricity, education, or even food), do you think we'll rebuild those aspects of society first...
Or, do you think the big wig oil companies will move in and secure the oil fields and refineries.
Will we put in another quality leader, like we did Castro?
Do not forget the template for an empire.
--------
Free your mind.
i don't know how appropriate it is to slashdot this, but this guy's ability to blog is probably already somewhat sketchy due to oh, about 25 different reasons you or i can think of right now, so here it is: blogging from baghdad.
:: Thursday, March 20, 2003 ::
:: salam 5:46 AM [+] :: ...
who knows? maybe we'll catch a first hand account. cross your fingers for him. please post updates if you notice a glimmer of activity.
i found it through an msnbc.com story.
he updated the site at 5:46 AM... which is 9:46 PM EST here in the US i believe. about an hour ago at the time of this post, half an hour before president bush made his 4 minute speech.
if you can't get to his blog, here is the top most few paragraphs right now...
air raid sirens in baghdad but the only sounds you can here are the anti-aircraft machine guns. will go now.
It is even too late for last minute things to buy, there are too few shops open. We went again for a drive thru Baghdad's main streets. Too depressing. I have never seen Baghdad like this. Today the Ba'ath party people started taking their places in the trenches and main squares and intersections, fully armed and freshly shaven. They looked too clean and well groomed to defend anything. And the most shocking thing was the number of kids. They couldn't be older than 20, sitting in trenches sipping Miranda fizzy drinks and eating chocolate (that was at the end of our street) other places you would see them sitting bored in the sun. more cars with guns and loads of Kalashnikovs everywhere.
The worst is seeing and feeling the city come to a halt. Nothing. No buying, no selling, no people running after buses. We drove home quickly. At least inside it did not feel so sad.
The ultimatum ends at 4 in the morning her in Baghdad, and the big question is will the attack be at the same night or not. Stories about the first gulf war are being told for the 100th time.
The Syrian border is now closed to Iraqis. They are being turned back. What is worse is that people wanting to go to Deyala which is in Iraq are being told to drive back to baghdad, there was a runor going around that baghdad will be "closed" no one goes in or out [check the map go from Baghdad in a N/E direction until you reach Baqubah, this is the center of Deyala governerate] people are being turned back at the borders of Baghdad city. There is a checkpoint and they will not let you pass it. there are rumors that many people have taken the path thru Deyala to go to the Iranian border. Maybe, maybe not.
If you remember I told you a while ago that you can get 14 satellite channels sanctioned by the state, retransmitted and decoded by receivers you have to buy from a state company. This service has been suspended. Internet will follow I am sure.
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Why should I now support a war that my conscience tells me is both wrong and immoral? Why should I support a war that will only further inflame anti-American sentiment in the Middle East? Why should I support a gov't that has money for a foolish war but not enough for education?
I could go on....
C - A language that combines the speed of assembly with the ease of use of assembly.
Wow, at ~800 comments, I doubt that anyone will read this, but, what the hell :)
I think that most people will acknowledge that the removal of Saddam (and other unstable leaders/organizations) is something to be strived for. The decision to take military action towards that goal is not what concerns me. My concern lays in the fact that the current US administration has shown contempt and arrogence when dealing with other nations and has not exhausted oportunities for a non-lethal solution to their problems. Diplomacy was attempted only as a PR mechanism - not as a genuine attempt to involve the rest of the population of the world in important decisions. In this war, the United States is choosing to sacrifice Iraqis towards the goal of liberation/stability; the noble thing to do would be to sacrifice Americans or willing allies, including some Iraqis (lets look at Iraqis killed VS Americans killed).
The United States, being a proponent of democracy, should promote democracy for the world - not just for nations. The United States is a citizen of the world; money and power shouldn't give it a stronger voice than anyone else. The actions of the United States reminds me of the recent elections in Iraq - a ballot with only one option. The rest of the world shouldn't be ignored; the rest of the world wants to be involved and respected as citizens of the world. Refusing to acknowledge the value offered by the rest of the world is insulting and alienating. Please, hear us, United States.
Face it: Bush has engineered the situation to justify a war.
NOTE: This letter was written on 2/28/2003 (approximately 2.5 weeks prior to the deadline set forth by the U.S.)
Dear Sir or Madam,
You may have recently exercised your right to free speech by voicing your opposition to the impending conflict in the Middle East. It's your right to do so thanks to our Constitution and its Bill of Rights. I'm sure you're aware of the importance of the Constitution as it pertains to our history, government, rights, and country. Another important document in our history is the Declaration of Independence. In June of 1776, Thomas Jefferson wrote these words: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
I'm writing to inform you that your unalienable Rights are in jeopardy. I discovered that there is a plot against your life. Obviously, without unalienable Right #1 (Life), #2 and #3 (Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness) are somewhat ruined. Unfortunately, your killers don't really care and won't stop with just ending your life. Once they kill you, they will continue murdering those you hold dearest. They will kill your family, your friends, your significant other, your co-workers, your fellow churchgoers, and any other United States citizen they can find. They will use any means possible. If they have to run you down on foot and slit you and your childrens' throats with knives, they will. If they are able (and equipped to do so), they will more than likely fire a pistol or rifle round through your skull at point blank range.
This killing won't happen covertly in a dark alley or your home. Your murderer will do you the pleasure of killing you for your beliefs in as public and horrific a manner as possible. More than likely he will even try to torture or molest you and your loved ones to the point at which you will be glad to die.
Who are these assailants? They are people who believe that they have to kill you because you don't think the way they do. Not only do they believe they must kill you, they believe they will be amply rewarded for doing so. If you're big on equality, you'll really like these guys. They don't discriminate at all. They are dedicated to killing you no matter your race, sex, sexual orientation, height, weight, age, political views, income, geographic location, ancestry, or religious preference. The only thing that matters to them is that you are a citizen of the United States. Your citizenship alone is more than enough motive for them to do everything in their power to end your life.
Luckily there are people who are on your side. You see, I took an oath eleven years ago to defend the United States, its allies, its interests abroad, and it's Constitution against all enemies whether they be foreign or domestic. By no means am I a warmonger. I'm not even on active duty anymore. My fellow Marines and I don't pray for war. In fact, we pray for peace more often than most conscientious objectors and anti-war protestors. Why? Because much like you, we don't want to die. We're ready to die if that's what it takes, but we'd really rather not. Most of us have things other than dying that we'd rather be doing. We have families, hobbies, friends, and interests just like you. It may seem trivial to you; but we swore to protect you, your family, and your way of life even if it means we have to die in the process. We even swore to protect your right to protest the actions we take to protect your rights. Think about that!
During my enlistment with the U.S. Marine Corps I learned some rather unsettling facts. I learned all about Nuclear, Biological and Chemical warfare (us Jarheads refer to it as "NBC"). All three can be devastating if used correctly. In addition to specifics on NBC warfare, I had the fortunate opportunity to familiarize myself (through research) with some of the people who are going to try to kill you (possibly even using NBC warfare). Unfortunately, I can'
I ran across this Iraqi citizen's blog if anyone is interested. It's updated daily.
The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky
read this on a t-shirt, it seems appropriate: Fighting for peace is like having sex for virginity.
putting total Iraqi losses from the war and its aftermath at 158,000, including 86,194 men, 39,612 women, and 32,195 children.
I don't trust this. You've got nice round numbers like "70,000" "40,000" and "158,000" (that don't add up: 13k+70k+40k = 123k, not 158) and then extremely specific numbers. I wouldn't expect such exact numbers for one thing.
So what do the specific numbers add up to? 158,001 Almost exactly the nice round number.
Possible, but not statistically likely.
Mod me off-topic if you must.
Yeah, but the ninja mythos is so much cooler than the cowboy mythos. It's also much much older.
The whole qi/chi thing is quite possibly the coolest thing on the planet.
You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
The physical infrastructure of the country will certainly be damaged during the war. How bad that damage will be is anybody's guess -- it could range anywhere from light to extremely heavy. But the organizational infrastructure of the country will also be damaged -- even if all the governmental buildings are still intact, the people who have been running them up to this point probably won't be. Senior officials in the Ba'ath Party will have to go into hiding. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the lower level member went into hiding too -- partially to avoid American troops, but also to avoid domestic political enemies in a vengeful mood.
Also, it would fit Saddam Hussein's style to adopt a "scorched earth" policy. He can't win this war. But he can make its aftermath as difficult as possible, in many ways. Such as: 1) setting oil wells on fire like he did in Kuwait; 2) destroying vital records; 3) murdering his potential successors.
When the dust settles and it's time to start establishing this new democracy that GWB keeps talking about, we're going to have to start well and truly from scratch. Governments take time to build. At the start, the American military will be running the country . . . at least while they work out some kind of interim government to hash out the details of how the new government will work. Given the marked and often violent division of the country's population into ethnic factions, establishing a government capable of representing everybody well enough will take a long time.
In the meantime, continued control over Iraq would have some definite advantages for America. First and foremost, if we could ensure a cheap supply of oil from Iraq, we would become a lot less dependent on other countries, eg Saudi Arabia. That in turn would make it much easier to pursue new foreign policy with regard to the Middle East. What those new policies might be I hesitate to guess; but note that Iraq could serve very nicely as a staging ground for a war with Iran, another member of Bush's "axis of evil." Such considerations make it tempting to drag our feet on the installation of a new, wholly independent government.
At the least, the new government of Iraq will pursue policies that harmonize with America's interests in the region. We'd have to be daft to go to all this trouble if we were just going to install another government that didn't behave friendly to us. At the worst, the new Iraqi government will be nothing but a puppet regime.
When you think of it like that, calling this whole mess a "colonial occupation" isn't laughable -- it's scary. I could be wrong about this. I really, really hope I'm wrong about this. Maybe the new government will get established fairly quickly, and be a truly independent body that takes care of its people and doesn't merely pander to American interests. It's waaay to early to make any sort of judgement. The war is a huge knot of uncertainty in our future. A zillion different things depend on how it goes. Let's all hope it goes well.
And now I'm having a lot of trouble getting through to well-known Iraqi hosts. (viz., uruk.uruklink.net returns very, very few packets. Star, star, star, says traceroute. Spin, spin, spin, says Safari.)
Maybe there was an EMP bomb among the ord dropped in southern Baghdad, or perhaps conventional damage was done to the telecom system, and local network health is evidence?
After all, the internet "routes around damage", but that doesn't help much if endpoint hosts have been fried (or disintegrated).
On Monday at 7:45am, MSNBC was covering the tragic deaths of 3 Jews in Israel. Apparently, in an effort to avoid the risk of bio or chem warfare, a mother had taped up the living quarters airtight. She was using a barbeque type grill to keep her and two children warm...
As they broke away from the field reporter and back to the newsroom, one of the staffers could be audibly heard laughing at the incident. The MSNBC morning anchor's face went pale and had a look of shock, she seemed aware that the staffer didn't realize it was audible.
You shouldn't be online discussing the war if you're part of the military. Unplug your ethernet cable and go do your job.
is it just a coincidence that that Mohammed Atta met with Iragi agents in Czech Republic prior to the 9/11 attacks and that the anthrax mailed around the same time had the exact same weaponization fingerprint as Irag uses?
And you ask what Iraq has ever done to us?
slashdot, news for crazed liberal socialist zealots
Just look at the comments on this story - whenever a political comment is made that doesn't toe the jingoistic, blindly-following-bush line, it's modded down. I'm glad I browse at -1 - the mods who abused their points today ought to be ashamed of themselves.
The Democratic Party: We've been pussies since 1968!
Guess what Mr. Anti-American? The right to speak your mind in the GREATEST COUNTRY IN WORLD HISTORY also extends to me so here it comes. First of all, don't expect credibility by quoting a fucking moron comedian. Second, do not use the word "we". Just because you have US papers does not mean you're my fellow American. "We" does not include me or millions upon millions of others. Take your side with the 28% junior.
Third, please try to use facts instead of blather and blah blah blah blah. Over 70% of Americans support the war, and that number was there BEFORE the President's speech. Just because slushfuck or the clinton news network didn't report it does not mean it didn't happen.
Fourth, if you don't care where you live, get the fuck out of my country. You don't give a rats ass about American concerns or issues. You seem to have fallen for Hilary Clinton's plagerized book about villages raising children, hence "I live on many different levels, in a community, a town, a state, a geography and ecosystem, in cyberspace. The notion of belonging to a nation is but one of many, but hardly my overarching modifier". I'd be ashamed to speak like that in fear people would think I was the town fool. Obviously you have no concept of national pride, and also no concept of reality. Really, you live in cyberspace? Psst, The Matrix was a fictional film.
Get your facts straight before you go foaming at the lips. Quote: "Does being the freest nation on earth require colonial domination over the rest of the planet?" Please, Mr Anti-American, enlighten us native born Americans on exactly when and where colonies were set up after military action. Come on...do tell. Time's up. You have no answer. Go ask Japan and Germany about our colonization of their countries. You'll get laughed off the planet. Hmmmm...I recall Japan got on their feet and almost buried the US economically back in the 80s, and Germany seems to be doing pretty good too.
I wonder what you'll have to blather about when Hussein is a grease spot and Iraq turns into a free country. Your little, tired oil arguement is useless in the face of the facts. Folks who hate the USA like yourself have no use for the facts because they get in the way of the lunatic philosophy that drives people like yourself. In a way it's good normal folks can see exactly how uninformed, ignorant, and downright stupid these anti-Americans really are.
As this is written, strikes are underway in Iraq and Afganistan by our brilliant military. Our outstanding intelligence tracked several top Iraqi brass gathered in one place which was shortly pounded by bunker buster bombs. Hussein supposedly was on live TV afterwards blowing hot air all over in horribly generic terms. Nothing at all specific said, with every news channel questioning whether it was really him and whether it was a live broadcast. It's only a matter of time sonny boy...
I wish you would have an opportunity to tell a soldier over there now the bullshit in your post. I don't think you'd have the balls because all anti-Americans have none. You only have guts on the beloved internet, not in reality. This slashdot crowd is so far removed from reality in all forms that it's doubtful they can even function as human beings. Go try to talk to a real, live American soldier and see how far you get. Those people are the same people who gave their lives so that today YOU can gas up the room with your hot air. Don't you EVER fucking forget it either Mr. Anti-American.
To my way of thinking the interesting thing about the people on that list isn't their religion or ethnicity so much as it is how few of them have actual combat experience, as in know what it's like to get shot at and wonder if you're going home in a body bag.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Before we have too many conspiracy nuts repeat the line that "this is all about oil," try to ask yourself these questions. If oil is so important, why is it that the coaltion giving the fields back to the soon-to-be established government of Iraq? If oil is No. 1, why isn't the U.S. attacking Venezuela where you have a would-be dictator whose actions (and those of his opponents) are severely impacting world oil markets much worse than before. If it's all about oil, how come Saddam is still around? Why wasn't he taken out last time?
As far as the even more insane theories about the Bush family and Cheney seeking to enrich themselves, let me tell you that there are plenty of ways to get far larger amounts of money in the world, either anonymously or noncontroversially. These theories make about as much sense as a Lyndon LaRouche rant or a John Birch Society meeting. Full of innuendo and conjecture.
If any of these theories were actually true, don't you think the Democratic party in the U.S. would be jumping all over them? But they are not, nearly all of them favor taking out Saddam including both Clintons, Al Gore, John Kerrey, etc. These people have no love lost for Bush; in fact, they hate him, yet they have enough brains not to listen to crackpots trotting around nonsensical conspiracy theories.
There are some real reasons why this war may be wrong but the oil point is totally simplistic and utterly wrong.
> people hold vehement positions even though they don't follow the news
Scarier is that this Slashdot discussion is refreshingly civil compared to what I've encountered the last few days! Last Sunday I released a version of Nmap and included a very short peace plea at the top of the announcement. I received well over 50 replies. While a few people such as Ilan Meller of Israel and Amir Safayan from Iran for presenting reasoned cases for preemptive action against Iraq, most of the replies were the worst flamage I've seen in years!
For suggesting that perhaps Bush could have been a little more patient with the UN & weapons inspectors, one person said I am "obviously a terrorist". Another concluded that Nmap "is spyware to spy on the american people." Chet from Hotmail explained that we must attack because "the religion of Islam seeks to destroy the USA". Jason from CMITexas said "Stick it up your ass! .... You are another resentful
European loser. I demand an answer now asshole!!!!" Another crazy
Texan said "Iraq will bow to the most powerful nation in the world and
you will stand by and observe. Your representatives are powerless
against gods chosen nation. No country has the power or the intellect
to do anything about it." Guys: I am a proud US Citizen residing in
California -- please tailor your invective appropriately.
Fortunately I sent out a second mail yesterday which noted the flames above and also clarified my points. I was quite gratified that this one already has elicited more than 220 replies, with 95% being civil! Many still disagree with me, but at least they respected my right to have and express my beliefs. It restored some of my faith in humanity (or at least in Nmap users). I can appreciate alternative views too. What frustrates me are the people who believe Saddam is linked with Al Qaeda or a bigger threat to the US than North Korea only because Bush says so.
I wish I had time right now to go through the hundreds of mails and piece together some of the very best arguments on each side. But I guess /. has no dearth of comments already :). So I'll just leave you with a few links I found interesting or funny ;).
And on a completely different (and much happier) note, I am pleased to announce just-released version 3.20 of the Nmap Security Scanner. It is the first "stable" release since last July and contains hundreds of improvements (release notes))
--Fyodor
Why is it always "president" Bush and "Saddam Hussein"? Why not "George W." and "President Hussein"...? You may say elections in Iraq are not free, but he did get more than 90% of the votes in his country. Dublya got less than 50%. And elections in America are free, right? So howcome the guy with the least votes "won"...?
AFAIK, no-one in Iraq has tried to depose Saddam. To me this looks a lot like what the US did in South America during the cold war - kicking out the presidents the people loved and putting US-controlled puppets in their place. Isn't Israel enough? No, wait, as a US government official once said off the record, "it's the other way around". The US are Israel's puppet.
Sharon and his goons have done more in favour of Adolf Hitler's image than all the nazi propaganda ever could. I'm a jew and I'm starting to think maybe old Adolf had a point after all. Of course, not all jews are murderers like Sharon. But when Dublya agrees to do their dirty work for them, and when millions of Americans just sit there like sheep and nod to everything the retarded cowboy says, it's kind of hard to blame foreigners for despising the US, all Americans, and all jews...
There's just one minor inconsistency: at the time, the Iranians used gasses working on the blood, and the Iraqi's has mustard gas. Turns out the Kurds where not killed with mustard gas, but with the nerve agent which acted through the blood stream.
And you know what? We don't know more than that...not a thing more. Could be that the Iraqi's used a nerve agent which they'd never used before (and which doesn't show up in any records), or it could be that the Iranians did it and used it as a great PR stunt...I dunno...and neither do you.
-- Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?
War criminal? Do some research into this "war" instead of being a sheep that believes what the media tell him. Saddam has
A) Never done anything to the US. The attack is unprovoked. (Do the research. Bush admitted last week that there was absolutely no connection between 9/11 and Iraq.) Unprovoked attack=War crime in my book.
B) The chemical weapons that Saddam allegedly used on his own people were, in fact, from Iran, and it was during Iran/Iraq war. There is no evidence that Saddam gassed his own people.
C) How do the US know he has these weapons? They checked the receipts. UK and US are who sold them to him. It seems the US sell arms to countries, and then blow the shit out of them for having the arms they sold them.
D) The attack is without UN backing. End result: Either the UN dissolves, or boots the US from it. The US have no place in the UN when they don't follow the rules.
But then why am I wasting my breath, you're just another sheep who believes what the mass media (who admit they've been hamstrung by Bush) tells you.
That was really a pleasure to read.
I would add a few things, just tangents.
Shiites in the south and Kurds in the north will welcome the troops. They will also be busily stringing up Saddam's Ba'ath party officials from lamp posts, and chaining them to their bumpers and dragging them through the streets. It will be funny watching the 101st airborne trying to "keep the peace." I wonder if any "embedded" journalists will be allowed to broadcast footage of the nastier stuff.
I wouldn't be surprised to see oilfields sabotaged in other ways than setting fires. Radioactive contamination would be the brass ring, but there are other options as well. It's not clear whether they have the wherewithal or the resolve for that. But it's got to be on the minds of a number of people tonight. "Serious" contamination of Iraqi oil reserves will put a nasty stain on the whole affair.
The U.N. won't even wait for the dust to settle to start clamoring for democracy in "liberated" Iraq. France, Germany, and Russia will champion the cause. After all, they didn't get their share of the goodies. The U.S. will be in the awkward position of needing to prevent a free and open election, since the majority of Iraqi voters won't be satisfied until their oil industry is nationalized and the white people are gone. The U.S. will thus stretch out military rule as long as possible.
The CIA's local representatives will have a field day weeding out "Saddam loyalists" and other "hostile agents" among the Iraqi populace. Whoo boy.
There are a number of Iraqi contenders for the successor government who have been rather painfully jockeying for position for the past several years. To my knowledge, none of them look very good, but who knows. And there's the matter of U.N. election observers. It will not be as easy as having the village elders trek to Baghdad for a little closed-door conference. Not with the world watching.
It will be interesting to watch how far they go. Or should I say how far they get.
Aside from making shitloads of money both on the military/industrial side and the oil side, I'm not clear on our next move either. One theory is that when we ramp up production again, we will seriously disrespect OPEC's price controls.
OPEC wouldn't like that very much. They would have a number of options; expelling American troops, denominating oil transactions in euros, radical trade sanctions, and not least of which, backing insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan. You may see where this is going - these are avenues for the conflict to expand.
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I'm not a citizen of the US nor UK. The 'our' in 'support our troops' is not for everybody a given since 'their' troops are not there at the moment (thankfully).
People who volunteered to be in an army should face the consequences when their commanders think they should start playing cowboys and indians in some desert. Why should I support those people? Because they are 'fighting for freedom' ? 'Giving their lives for our lives' ? Freedom is degrading all over the world especially in the USA. If the fight for freedom should be held somewhere it should be in the USA and against its own government, not somewhere in the Middle East.
I'm all for freedom and peace for the iraqi people, as I also am for freedom and peace for the people in the occupied palestine territories (Israel occupies them for 30 years now, despite a UN resolution (242) which says Israel should retreat (resolution is 30 (!) years old)), as I am also for freedom for all those African citizens who suffer from war day after day for decades in a row.
However I'm against hypocrisy and a single war against Iraq solely to 'bring freedom' while ignoring all those other countries where people suffer day after day (for a much longer period!). This war is wrong, the consequences will be hard for a lot of people, the deaths of possible thousands of civilians will be caused by US lead troops.
Now, tell me, why should I support these 'freedom fighters' in killing innocent people?
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
This is just not true. The people in the UK are firmly set against the war. From the Guardian:
"Our ICM poll this week showed a 44-38% majority against a military attack".
Blair has not convinced the people in the UK.
- Ost
---- Sig. gone.
- Guatemala: urged by the United Fruit Company (outraged that the democratically elected socialist government was going to take their land, paying them exactly what they originally paid for it), we engineer a coup d'etat, installing a repressive dictatorship who proceed to kill and torture political opponents for the next 30 years. The U.S. continues to pour millions of dollars of support to the dictatorships. Only recently has Gautemala emerged from the long shadow of this brutal regime which was supported almost exclusively by the U.S. government.
- Chile: After a socialist government is democratically elected (and mismanages for a couple of years), we support Pinochet and his military junta in a coup d'etat. The military dictatorship, under guise of fighting communism, establish a brutal police state, torturing and "disappearing" political opponents (labeled Marxists and including American citizens) for the next two decades. The U.S., again pours millions of dollars of support into the dictatorship. You know the rest.
- Vietnam: The American backed South Vietnamese government reneges on a promise to hold national elections (fearful that Ho Chih Mihn might actually win a fair election) and civil war breaks out. The U.S. attempts to prop up the repressive South Vietnamese government with money and advisors, eventually, sending American troops into battle against the Viet Cong (South Vietnamese rebels) and the N.V.A. The U.S. is supported by many troops from Canada, ANZAC and the R.O.K. Millions of people are killed in the conflict before the U.S. withdraws its troops. You know the rest.
- Iran: After the democratically elected government takes steps to nationalize the oil industry, the CIA engineers a coup, where the Shah of Iran replaces a Constitutional Monarchy. The Shah, while stealing billions of dollars from the country, represses political freedom so fiercely that it political dissent squirts into the only haven it has, extremist religion. The formerly unpopular religious extremists gain thousands of converts, they overthrow the Shah and kidnap the American Embassy. You know the rest.
- Iraq: Pissed off at the betrayal of Iran (and unable to muster the balls to outright declare war on Iran after the specter of Vietnam), we support Saddam Hussein with materiel and money, as long as he continues his war against Iran. We turn a blind eye to his use of chemical weapons as long as he continues this war. You know the rest.
- Afghanistan:... nevermind, look it up for yourself, how we trained, armed and supported the extremists who created the core of Al Qaeda. The chickens coming home to roost indeed.
All of this is well documented and easily verifiable by reading some modern history books or googling around on the web. I would say that our record of "rebuilding" countries into democracies (especially when large corporate interests area involved) is about as shitty as it gets. The cynic in me wants to say that the only reason that Japan and Germany succeeded in becoming democracies was because they had no natural resources for post-war American companies to exploit. Hence there was no need for the U.S. to go in and "intervene". BTW, those same democracies appose our unilateral attack on Iraq.There is no trap so deadly as the trap you set for yourself
-Raymond Chandler, The Long Goodbye
Robin Cook saw this secret intel, was not convinced, and his resignation speech is (for me) an extremely eloquent explanation of why this war is *NOT* justified, and why it has done severe and possibly irreparable damage to western relations.
The speech is here:here but I've cut and pasted it below:
I find it funny that so many of you seem to think this is ok because it is the right thing to do, because saddam tortured and killed many innocent civilians, because he aided terrorists...
I am sorry to say so, but all these things can be said about the US.
They have tortured, or helped in the torture of so many that it is simply too hard to keep track of the number of civilians affected. Think Pinochet.
They have been condemned by the world court as a terrorist state and were fined a hefty amount to pay for the damages, yet they simply ignored the ruling.
They have been using their veto to block every UN resolution to make world law applicable to all.
They have been behind pretty much every dictator in Latin America for the past century.
Think about it for a second, don't you think it is time to apply the same rules to all people, instead of always punishing the weak and the poor(think embargo on Iraq which killed hundreds of thousands of children).
I fail to see how America is the land of the free when any police and or military agency can monitor any civilian at any time without the need to justify itself, when it is illegal for all citizen to really own any given thing they buy(think DMCA) without fear that if they do not use the things they own the way the company wants them to they could be jailed.
I simply think more Americans should start looking at their past, present and future and realize all the pain and suffering they have caused and continue to cause.
But don't take my word for it, there is plenty of literature available on the subject, take Chomsky for instance. Yes, I know, he sometimes is far from impartiality, but don't even take his word for it, look up all the sources he takes time to mention, often times they are government papers.
This war is by far un-necessary. Most wars are. While some say the only reason for France, Germany and Russia to be against this war is because they have quite a few financial ventures in Iraq, I say one needs to look further, has it not crossed your mind that maybe it is because they have experienced war at home that they know that the burden will be on the innocents.
I think this whole subject is extremely complex and needs much attention, and should not simply be summarized in a 2 line comment.
I think it is time the world realized the US is one of the most active terrorist state there is, and that maybe we should try to understand why before we make decisions for others has the US did so many times.
As a Brit, I am very saddened by what has happened in the last few months.
Nobody will ever try to deny the fact that Saddam is a scumbag and the world will be a better place without him. He is a truly evil, brutal tyrant who cares little for anyone or anything.
Since Sept 11, the US has been on the rampage looking for a head. Bin Laden's head was never found and the next easiest target was Saddam. Bush made it clear from Day 1 that he wanted a war and along with Blair he conjured up a variety of reasons to do so, all of them totally unconvincing.
There is no link with al-Qaeda, there are no chemical weapons, no nuclear weapons.
He has broke UN resolutions, but so have other countries including Israel who have broke more resolutions for longer than Iraq.
However, in order to remove one man and his regime the US/UK are planning one of the biggest military operations seen. This operation is not against a nation, a sizeable or strong army or even a militia. It is remove one man.
We will see a lot of totally innocent civilians die in the coming weeks. Can anyone tell me that blowing up and invading Iraq is going to solve international terrorism? Will the world be a safer place afterwards?
As someone who was caught in two IRA bombs that were planted in Manchester/UK I will tell you that the biggest recruiter for terrorism is violence. The only way you can stop it is by talking, listening and understanding.
Unfortunately Bush and Blair will do neither.
I think everyone will agree that Saddam is a generally bad guy. How did he get into power ?? WE put him in power there. Guess Who else we put into power over there - the Taliban. Hey, I know people can make mistakes - even countries, but we trained and supplied Bin Laden too. Starting to sound like a country that keeps screwing up by sticking it's nose in ???
Ever wonder why all these terrorists and countries hate the United States ? Because WE keep trying to impose our will on thier countries. Oh, I know, all of you that are saying that we are just trying to ensure their freedom or keep our country safe... blah blah. But that is kind of a concieted view isn't it ?!? What makes you think they would care at all about us and the U.S. if we left them alone???
All these things coming from our Goverenment - the same governemt that doesn't care at all about it's own citizens. What - you think they do care? Why are they taking our freedoms away, our privacy away, our liberties away, our sense of well-being away?
Just think about the fact there our economy is already the worst since the depression of the 1930's and they keep tellling us it's getting better. Well the stock market is 30% lower than it was 4 years ago. Unemployment is still at horrid levels. Yes I remember Bush saying benefits were goning to be extended 26 weeks, but only about 1% of the people recieving benefits got it - the rest didn't qualify.
But we have the new Homeland Security Group - have you read George Orwell's '1984' ???
Whether you agree or disagree with what I've said, take 5 minutes and think about it all logically and not emotionally and see if you still are sure of yourself.
1. cutting Asia in half; after taking over Iraq, the US is able to block a huge amount of traffic from middle east to far east and vice versa, since it will have army in Iraq and Afghanistan. 2. controlling the Turks by freeing Kurds and making the way for splitting Turkey in half, allowing for the Kurdistan state to emerge. This state is right at the Caspian oil deposits, that are far superior to those in Iraq. 3. Be near China. Huge excuse for deploying armed forces there. 4. Be near Pakistan to control it against India. India is THE premier subcontractor for many US companies 5. be near Persia(Iran), where a lot of terrorist groups are being born. 6. protect Israel from attack. 7. Delivering a message worldwide as to who is the boss. 8. Strike a blow to the EE now that it is in its infancy politically and in the defense department; with Europe divided, there is no serious obstacles for world domination. 9. bring doll to the military sector, reviving part of the economy 10. moving attention away from scandals like Enron etc 11. taking away US citizen liberties, enforcing more legislation and more control There are a lot of reasons for this war. I don't think Bush is to be blamed. He did not know that Musharaf was president of Pakistan, remember ? (Musharaf is not elected by the way, he is a dictator). He is a puppet, just like Al Gore would be. He is told that some bad Arabs want to demolish his country, he gets angry and signs whatever he is requested. It is Cheney, CIA, DIA and the others that run this country. By the way, Al Gore has been spared his life by not winning the elections, rumours say.
This morning all the news channels are throwing around the term "shock and awe" when they talk about the first missile strike carried out against Iraq. What exactly is that? Well, I did a little researching on the net and I found a site hosting the text of a small book written by Harlan Ullman and James Wade called Shock And Awe: Achieving Rapid Dominance. It appears this was written as kind of a military playbook or "intellectual construct", written back in 1996. At the time of it's writing, this handbook had to undergo testing at something called the MRC (Military Relations Committee?) and the "Quadrennial Defense Review of 1997". Finally it had to be proven against the Operations Other Than War doctrine and training platforms. Now, I'm not certain what these terms mean, but I'm wondering if this manual is the script for the style of tactics we are now seeing Iraq. If so, the timeline suggests to me that as soon as the first military action in Iraq was over, we started planning the next one... Cross-post from my blog at www.kellytadams.com
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I love all this stuff about the French surrendering during WWII, when it was the Americans under Roosevelt who recognised the "Vichy" government and stupidly failed to recognised De Gaulles Free French.
As usual, the US fucked up, but don't let that stop you.
American Bombing campaigns since WWII:
Korea 1950-53
China 1950-53
Guatemala 1954
Indonesia 1958
Cuba 1959-60
Guatemala 1960
Congo 1964
Peru 1965
Laos 1964-73
Vietnam 1961-73
Cambodia 1969-70
Guatemala 1967-69
Libya 1986
El Salvador 1980s
Nicaragua 1980s
Panama 1989
Iraq 1991-99
Sudan 1998
Afghanistan 1998
Yugoslavia 1999
Iraq 2003-????
Does anyone have any omissions? Does anyone have a similar list that dates to the Founding of The USA? Any "non-bombing" missions?
One further note, to Non-Americans: Im Canadian, I live on the border, I can tell you without a doubt that Americans* are COMPLETELY out of control. They are myopic and ignorant. Watching CNN is about 1% of what its like in the street. These people *REALLY* believe that it is their RIGHT to do this, that they are special in the world, that opposition is manafest 'jealousy' - they BELIEVE this tripe about "terrorists hating their Freedom"... its like a bad, surreal movie.
Like Nazi Germnay before the invasion of Poland, Americans* are completely and absolutely drunk with Nationalism, Jingoism and Arrogance (its amazing) to the point that Im scared (literally) for the future of Canada and the world. This Iraq effort is the natural progression of American Empire, of 250 years of American history.
If Iraq manages a retalitory strike on American Soil, they are going to start WWIII (nuke Iraq off the planet - the citizens will be all for it).
An interesting Notice to Americans: Listen to this PLEASE and THINK ABOUT IT.
*That I work with, that my wife works with and that Ive spoken to. Im not generalizing - i live in Windsor - this is the most busy border in NorthAmerica, the two cities literally live together.
Almost everyone posting here is naïve. You are pro-war, anti-war, anti-Bush, whatever - and you go on to state your reasons why your opinion is just. Many of the readers and posters here know that a good percentage of the other posters are really just spouting their ignorance - claiming "facts" that are easily countered.
Unfortunately, I am posting to suggest that every single one of you (myself included) is grossly uninformed and ignorant of the facts.
Someone posted that Blair is "hiding something". Well I'm sure he is. As is Bush, as is Saddam, as are the French and Germans.
No one has shown their cards, and we won't even see them in the history books.
Time will *not* tell. History is written by the winners, and although Bush may in fact write on this topic at some point in the future, he's sure to not share everything he knows, and certainly he cannot share what HE doesn't know.
We don't have all the facts, we will never have all the facts, and to suggest that any one of us has even a fraction of the TRUTH is extraordinarily naïve.
Face it, we have NO idea why Bush is doing what he's doing, nor why any of the leaders of the other countries have taken their positions pro or anti war.
Did Bush make this decision based on greed? oil? power? religious fanaticism? ideals? all of the above?
How about France? Are they anti-war because Iraq owes them money? Does Iraq in fact owe them anything? Again, is it greed? oil? power? public opinion? their ideals? Could it be that they are just Anti-Bush or Anti-American? Are they snobs? Or are their reasons that they simply thing that war is a BAD THING?
Again, time will NOT tell all, we will never have all the facts. TRUTH is an evasive thing, the more we learn (if in fact we listen and try to learn - many of us with our distorted facts don't bother to try) the more we realize we have NO CLUE what is going on.
I am not trying to suggest a big conspiracy. It is my BELIEF that everyone is honestly doing what they think is the RIGHT THING TO DO (including Bush, Blair, Chirac, and Hussein).
It is my naïve opinion that Saddam is a bad person. Who knows for sure? What are MY sources? Public media, history books, fourth-hand related accounts, and other naïve, uninformed individuals. Please tell me how any of my sources are not biased, uninformed, and/or inaccurate accounts? Are the sources of your "FACTS" any different?
Lets see which country is more dangerous to USA.
IRAQ - N.K. ( North Korea)
Weapon of mass Destruction - N.K
Missle that can reach USA - N.K.
Nuclear Weapon - N.K.
Kick the weapon inspector OUT! - N.K.
OIL!!!!!! - IRAQ!!!!!!!!!!!!
it just seem NK is more threats to USA than Iraq in my opinion. However I don't mind getting gas at $1 instead of $2.30 per gallon.
Here's a blog updated daily by an Iraqi living in Baghdad. The UN must have made an exception for him, right?
http://dear_raed.blogspot.com/
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