Slashdot Mirror
Corporations Getting Into The Open Source Spirit
Anonymous writes "Some bastions of capitalism are getting into the open-source spirit -- not only using the software, but contributing code fixes and other mods, according to an article in today's Computerworld."
The most surprising thing in an article like this is the fact that it is getting written at all. It used to be that only MS would get this kind of rah-rah journalism, but the tide seems to be turning.
Now, stuff like this seems to be showing up all the time. I wonder what single thing tripped off this new trend.
Congratulations! Now we are the Evil Empire
DARPA supports BSD, and now big business buying Open source. Either sanity is breaking out everywhere or the apocolypse is coming soon to a planet near you.
Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed
I run a moderately-sized software company.
We use a lot of open source software, so I'm always looking for good ways to contribute to the oss-movement, but the consequences are too difficult to judge.
We actually thought about making our source open for the benefit of non-profit organisations (it's a project-management software).
Has anybody made any experience with something like this? We are talking about enterprise-level software here, not your average free-for-students-ide.
Fleur de Sel
...has spawned a whole magazine already. That does certainly suggest Linux is ready for prime time.
So you're going to create a database telling people exactly what software government agencies use and give them the code. Does anyone else see this as a security risk?
Track your TV Shows with your iPhone - FREE
Back in the 70's, IBM came out with their VM meta-OS. Its origins were in academia, not in IBM's shops, and in all the installations that I saw, it always came with full source. They actively encouraged customers to submit not just bug reports, but fixes, which were then sent out to other customers.
;-). I emailed the fix to the Amdahl support people, they thanked me, and it was in their next set of patches.
In one place that I worked around 1980, there was a big IMB mainframe, and one day we brought in some Amdahl people to demo their unix that ran on VM. One question was whether source was available. Their answer was "The source isn't an option; you get it whether you want it or not." Within a couple of weeks, I'd made a small fix to the kernel's clock routine (needed because the turkeys who ran our VM had screwed up their clock in a way that Amdahl's people hadn't conceived of
Closed source was to a great extent an invention of Microsoft. Before them, it was obvious to even the stupidest manager that it was a good idea to make source available to any programmers who could understand it. That way, you got bug fixes rather than bug reports.
It's actually a bit strange that we now have management that doesn't understand this. What are they teaching them in business schools these days?
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
Actually, I thought it was a geeky Vin Diesel.
Track your TV Shows with your iPhone - FREE
Surely they missed the "no sex" clause in the EULA to join the linux community, how else would it be possible?
Posting useless rant since 2003.
This got me wondering.
Bug fixes and other contributions to open source software are in and of themselves valuable, but creating them will always be an expense to companies. With the exception of major enhancements or improvements very few will be marketable, or generate any other revenue stream for the company.
"Goodwill" however, is a recognized asset for companies. An asset that can be appraised, and entered on the balance sheet raising the company's value.
I wonder whether the open source movement could benefit from this aspect of contribution to the community, encouraging companies to create a verifyable and appraisable track record of contributions, and supporting their efforts to create genuine bankable value based on goodwill.
Just a thought.
------
Believe me, I'm as surprised by my comment as you are.
the value of a MCSE drops another 20 G's a year.
I've been working with a lot of vendors on projects, IBM, BEA, ATG, TIBCO, etc.
You always find bugs in the products you use. Most of the time you have to develop a fix yourself, because the vendor's release schedule will not enable you to wait for the official fix. It's just good vendor relations to send the fix to the vendor.
I did that exactly for the same reason Merrill Lynch does that, to get better software.
Proletariat of the world, unite to kill bugs
In Soviet Russia, I ruled you
Anyone out there want to co-opt the BSD is dying into "Microsoft is Dying"??
Thanks.
Perhaps the problem with this particular form of ignorance is that many really care nothing about freedom and choice and thus promoting the things that provide them. Instead they are the vandals that break just to break. Yes comrade, let us take up arms and uhh... why are we doing this? *BANG* Never question mindless violence my comrade, who is next with these "questions?"
Please take the politics and personal agendas out of everything you do, especially software. Many are tired of seeing everything laced with your crap.
Tim O'Reilly had an interesting discussion with Adam Turoff on why Open Source communities do work so well.
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/3017
Thanks,
Gerard
'Bastions of capitalism' also need tax write-offs...
You're trying to tell me that buisnessmen, with their buisness management degrees, in charge of big buisnesses, finally are figuring out the buisness model that is the opensource concept.
Seriously I'm acctually shocked to see this in the press presented in such a clear and logical manner. Usually when the press refers to any Free/Opensource project they place a little blurb about how anyone can make contributions to the code. Almost never do they drop names of companies/governments who do. I guess this just goes to show after a while people can unlearn the proprietary method of software development.
Phase 2- get them to realise the idea of Free Software. Let them know it should be their right to change, develop, and distribute code.
I wish there was some there was some way that I could be outside playing basketball, in the rain, and not get wet.
The most interesting part of this is the reason Merril Lynch gave as to why they posted patches back. They wanted to have a seat at the development table and did not want to have to maintain a fork of the product forever. Certainly not a RMS view of OSS, but one that makes more sense (and dollars) in the long run.
K
by slashbot sawilson. Here is the text.
Microsoft is dieing. No trolling intended here
Seriously. How can you stop a compeditor that doesn't have bills to pay, or debt? I mean, I was worried back in the day. I was sure they'd come up with some way of simply taking advantage of strong political ties to make Linux essentially illegal. That doesn't even matter anymore. Money is getting invested. Huge companies are in. I used to flat out laugh at the "world domination" types on here because it just sounded so silly. My argument was always, who cares about the rest of the world. How can they stop something free? It's turning out to be their achilles heel. Microsoft can't buy Linux out. Microsoft is moving too slowly to make something that can compete on cost. They've spent a fortune on trying to market their way out of this inevitable approaching death, and people just don't buy it anymore. I'm not saying that Microsoft will fade into the distance. That's just not realistic. But they will have to give up the childish name calling and get onboard at some point. The sooner they realize they need to give up the server market and embrace Linux as much as they can, the less money they'll bleed down the road. If they don't, they'll lose the server market within a short time, then they'll slowly lose the desktop market. It's all right there in black and white. It's what I see. I can't be the only one. Imagine all the PHB's reading articles going "wow, that geeky guy telling me about Linux years ago was right. We need Linux now". I don't even feel silly saying that. I would have a year ago. Scott McNeilly in a Penguin suit speaks volumes. It's only a matter of time now.
You're misinterpreting goodwill, which, IIRC, is defined as the difference between the book value of a company's assets and the price paid for it in an acquisition. It's often interpreted (at least by me) as a function of the value of the brand associated with the acquired company.
i.e. Amazon's actual assets are probably miniscule compared to its stock price, but the value of the marketable name is substantial.
Also note that you'd have to be able to associate a value for the contribution in question, which, since the code is released to the world for free, is pretty close to nil. As such, it's a stone cold expense.
Unless, of course, you're trying to build positive karma within the OSS community, which is certianly possible, but probably shouldn't show up on a balance sheet.
ceci n'est pas un sig.
What kind of jackassed comment is that? There is NOTHING anti-capitalist about using free/open software...if anything, it might be MORE capitalist. If it is a COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE, it's great for a capitalist corporation to employ. Take it from someone who considers themselves largely capitalist....WE FUCKING LIKE FREE/OPEN SOFTWARE. Know why? It's free....if I have to draw pictures to explain why a capitalist likes that......ugh.
Sounds like a liberal socialist-wannabe. Sure...make it sound like the big evil corporations have become 'enlightened' enough to see things your way. (Just make sure it isn't the other way around, oh enlightened one.) They aren't stupid...they want to make money. When free software is good enough, it'll get adopted...I promise. Guess what? It's getting good enough these days...it's been really getting there for the last few years now. Shockingly enough, it's being adopted...good...now go pat yourself on the back. Whatever.
What is this supposed to mean? Open source is more compatible with communism? That sounds like a subtle insult to me.
There is absolutely nothing spectacular about corporations dealing with open source software.
I recently posted a short article on this subject on SYS-CON's SYS-CON's Linux Business and Technology (the publishers of Java Developer's Journal). I think an even better article on Corporate open source adoption is the one in the March 15th issue of CIO magazine.
...that just keeps gaining momentum. Linux/open source gets some press, some "hip" factor, PHBs start to look at the hip new thing (I can just hear some manager asking his newly minted MSCE, "Say, what would it take to switch to this Linux thing I read about in businessweek?"), the more the PHBs look at it, the more press it gets...
It's cool, but at the same time, a lot of the people writing about it clearly don't understand it -- the mutilated description of the GPL in the recent Businessweek article bears witness to that. Then at the same time (in that article, and elsewhere) there's the continued use of phrases like "a ragtag band of software geeks", which I don't consider pejorative or anything, but it begins to get a little old.
I think this will be a Good Thing. As long as the "trend" lasts long enough for people to figure out how to use it(Linux, etc); if they just abandon it the first time they're prompted to fsck their filesystem, it could stop rolling. But hopefully by that time the this-could-be-more-user-friendly-dept. will have worked some more magic...
philcrissman.com.
Companies like Microsoft are greatly overcharging for their products, perhaps not for the initial sale, but for the upgrades and on-going development. Or do you really think that the incremental improvements in your Office XP upgrade are really worth several hundred dollars to you compared to the version of Office you already paid for? And why would you want to pay for improvements that often are largely based on user feedback anyway, rather than representing actual R&D work by the software company?
Those are market inefficiencies with the commercial software model that open source software corrects. Sure, the open source model isn't perfect either, in that not everybody who benefits pays exactly for what they are getting, but it seems to all average out statistically well enough for open source software to be competitive.
One thing I notice is that participating with the Open Source community changes the way I look at corporations. It's another benifit I was surprised that wasn't mentioned in the article. Some people, myself included, see corporations in a much better light when I notice they are contribuiting to Linux development or any open source project.
"I believe in everything in moderation. Including moderation." -Dean DeLeo, Stone Temple Pilots
We all know it was you who made that post.
What?!! Flamebait!...I never...I mean, I masturbate, but never flamebait.
Perhaps you meant this for someone else. Don't be hating just cause your skillz cannot pay said billz.
Perhaps what is needed here is a big old helping of http://goatse.cx
That should cure what ails you..
If not, http://tubgirl.com certainly will.
Losers.
For those of you who haven't already heard: Microsoft's Linux distro
Conserve Oil, Recycle, Boycott Walmart
I still need PivotTable/PivotChart (like in Excel 2000) support from OO 1.0 Calc before I can switch. :(
This casual reference by the Submitter can be used to illustrate a fundamental bias within the community of Open Source users. (I'd argue that most Open Source contributors wouldn't take this view.)
How is it that Open Source and Capitalism are commonly viewed as being diametrically opposed?
Two Points:
Companies that utilize Open Source in order to more rapidly or cheaply deliver whatever service or product they sell on the market will win out in a competition against peers that develop a product with purely in-house tools. This is because an enormous expenditure of resources would be required to exceed the quality and speed of an active open source community project. --Doing away with that cost will help a company to cut prices below what a competitor can sustain.-- A fine strategy therefore, would be for a Company to promote those Open Source groups with whom they share a common interest. If a company depends on computing power to achieve success, it could benefit from helping the Mosix group deliver exceptional clustering software, for instance.
Open Source uses a reward system that is very similar to Capitalism. The strength of capitalism is in the nearly 1:1 ratio of talent to reward, as well as the constant feedback-loop the market presents to new products. Open Source rewards contributors with status; the best programmers are richly compensated in this regard. In many ways status is better than money. (Arguably, a primary attribute of money is the proxy action it has on status.) Additionally, Open Source has it's own feedback-loop in that a single programmer searching for available status, has an incentive to review other people's code in the hopes of improving it. This action multiplied thousands of times over the life of a project is an efficient and dependable machine for improvement.
The "bastion of capitalism" fits very nicely with Open Source, which is why Linux is winning the war in IT departments all over the world. The Open Source yin-and-yang of Status and Peer-Review is a close approximation of Capitalism's Money and Markets.
As a contributor, I can tell you that just as Companies need things to cost less, Programmers need things to make better. Open Source and Capitalism are becoming the best buds, and only an Open Source parasite or a Corporate nobody would fail to see the natural symbioses of the two.
Anyone who has used the code licensed under 'viral' (read GPL) open-source licenses cannot close their source code. If they can't close it and it is useful to them, they might as well distribute it and contribute to the open-source movement. By posting a story like this, and putting it in such a newsworthy fashion as indicated above seems to imply that open-source is the domain of pinko-Commie bastards, into which bastions of capitalism are finally entering. Don't forget, capitalism and open-source are independent concepts. Business models of software companies can be plotted on a two-dimensional plane with 'code freedom' and 'price' as the two axes.
After I read ESR's C&B, this seemed totally obvious to me...not on a philisophical basis, but on a business basis.
The fact that companies are finding it in their "mutual best interest" to contribute code changes and whatnot to OSS should come as no suprise to anyone, they all stand to gain without having to invest huge sums against the "barrier to entry" that MS has created.
MS and closed source companies are the ONLY one's who benefit by NOT to distributing changes/making public.....for all others, it follows the rules set out in "Magic Cauldron" chapter....do a few hours work to fix a bug for yourself and pass that on to all others!......In the end, you can have everything you want for just a few hours of work. Unlike typical "products", sharing software has NO cost to the giver and does not remove ANY functionality from the giver....AND increases the value of the product through widespread adoption.
OSS is a superior business model, UNLESS you are MS.
What goes around, comes around.....
IBM was shunned for many years by both the Unix and opensource communities.
However they are now looked upon as the good guys and their bussiness skyrocketed as a result. IBM is what most hackers have on their minds if their employer needs support and consulting for huge projects. They are not free or cheap but you get what you pay for.
I use to live in NewYork and the NYLUG is one of the best in the country. IBM for years has been generious in donating their rooms for the meetings and group gatherings. Alot of the locals in the meetings have consulting contracts with IBM as a result.
The more they help free software advocates the more advertising they get as well as improved software they can sell for their clients. We all win.
I believe JBoss is also an advertisement for a consulting firm who produces it. There bussiness has taken off thanks to free advertising from their product.
Opensource does work well in getting your name out. Alot of PHB do not trust salesmen because they do not know if their products are any good. With opensource software they can test them out.
http://saveie6.com/
"Some bastions of capitalism are getting into the open-source spirit"
This really isn't unexpected seeing as how Open-Source itself is a natural bastion of democracy and capitalism.. unlike certain very socialist-style "intellectual property" regimes of broad government-issued monopoly powers.
Software development and support should be a service! (:
Are taxes so onerous that those making the most feel they need protection from fulfilling their obligations to society?
pfah!
Some bastions of capitalism are getting into the open-source spirit
Won't that destroy our vision of a Marxist, socialist revolution with OSS at the spearhead? No sir, capitalists using OSS is NOT a good thing.
A unique- and better yet, free - Linux resource is LinuxGram, you never know what Maureen O'Gara's going to say, pretty outrageous stuff. And there's a new Linux publication to watch out for, due in Q2, looks very promising.
The reason IBM has held onto it's mainframe business is similar to how Microsoft has held on to its PC software business: closed source, proprietary formats
And yes, they have differents OSes that can run on the mainframe, the latest that I know of being VM and OS/390.
There is no patch for stupidity
Visit my blog
The main crux of this comparison, as far as I can tell, should be made in reference to other aspects of business. Consider a manufacturing plant of some kind. In this plant they have equipment that they built, equipment they bought on contract and have serviced, and equipment that they bought but maintain themselves. The equipment they build or maintain is directly related to their business, and the operators/engineers are sufficiently trained and experienced to cover the majority of their needs. Over the years they have filled each equipment need they've had with the solution that was best at the time, and presumably address their solutions over time when difficulties or cost concerns come up.
This is roughly analogous to in-house software, proprietary software, and open source software. A company is free to pick and choose which solutions work best to remain in business. The main difference is very few companies naturally have Software Engineers/Designers/What Have You in the course of their normal business developments. Whereas a small manufacturing company is likely to have been founded by people making the product by hand, rarely are office environments founded by programmers (Exception: software companies which by this analogy are manufacturers of software and would fit with them).
The important thing to remember is that software isn't the only third party products these offices, or even manufacturers, use. There aren't many advocates for Open Source Copiers, or Open Source Pens, or Open Source Coffee Makers, all calling for GPL'd blueprints. The significant difference with software is that the only real resources required are the source code (or blue prints) and the person capable of understanding and modifying them. Virtually everything else would require a parts supply chain which, if not part of the main business, usually isn't an economical path to follow.
In conclusion, the cost of maintaining anything utilized by an organization that isn't directly related to the organization should be compared with the costs of outside solutions, whether talking about software or coffee makers, and whether talking about businesses, governments, or even your own house.
R: That voice. Where have I heard that voice before? B: In about 365 other episodes. But I don't know who it is either.
"SYS-CON's SYS-CON's Linux Business and Technology [sys-con.com]" Wait, slow down... WHERE did you post it? ;)
http://www.sys-con.com/Linux/articlenews.cfm?id=66 3
Feel free to comment/agree/flame it here...
Kevin
Mod parent up. I wish I had mod points today...
I still don't understand how a software-only company can make a decent profit if its main software products are free of charge. I understand the advantages of open software (better documentation for development/bug fixing), but if I have a small software company, how am I gonna benefit from the products that I (don't) sell ? how the bills are gonna paid, how the developers are gonna paid ?
Please don't see this as a troll, but there is a limit to what should be free of charge and what should not. Don't forget that the economic benefit is one of the strongest motives for research. And if I have a revolutionary idea, why shouldn't I get something for it ?
Sure - there is a potential for additional risk with such a listing. However, there is not as much risk as it may initially appear to present.
First off - the list may not be accurate. Software solutions and version numbers change - often faster than these kinds of lists update. An attacker will have to assume the list offers merely a starting point and will have to verify the information on their own.
On that point - an attacker will be able to profile the environment with or without the list. Even an attacker who wishes to avoid too much attention could easily scan a potential target and still blend in to the the background noise Government agencies deal with their public-facing networks daily.
Of course, that assumes the attacker is even going to bother profiling the target. The vast majority of attacks against Government and Corporate resources seem to be crimes of convenience, as it were. The target is attacked merely because it is there and vulnerable. There is no actual interest in the target itself (beyond perhaps the available resources or address space). These attacks quickly follow wide-spread scans. Attackers may even simply run exploits blindly against systems and dispense entirely with any form of intelligence gathering.
And so there you are. The current environment involves blind attacks, random attackers, and the occasional intelligent attacker who will go to their own measures to profile your environment. One should already take measures to protect one's environment against this sort of daily exposure.
Publishing basic software packages being used in an attempt to leverage knowledge and experience from the community and other organizations does little to expand this exposure. And it may very well present a much higher benefit than what little additional attention it attracts.
Here's the URL actually in a link...
Indeed. And sometimes you GAIN interoperability and features. Sometimes price is rather arbitrarily set according to "what the market will bare" rather than a barometer of quality. It pays to be an informed consumer and do one's own research rather than relying on someone's sales force. Welcome to the free market.
This is not reasonable. Everyone has and agenda. Any time more than one person is involved with something, politics come in to play.
The Open Source and Free Software movements have very obvious (although slightly differing) agendas and politics. I suspect that this is the focus of the above comment. However, let us not forget that commercial software vendors also have their own agendas and politics - ultimately, selling their product. Sometimes this goal is realized by offering a better product. Sometimes the goal is realized by limiting users with various "lock-in" tactics.
A smart consumer (be it private, business, or government) will be aware of these issues and use them as a guideline to match their own agendas and politics.
The buisness model is that a big company is paying someone to develop a piece of Free/OpenSource Software even though it is not one they own. It is one they use and thus have a vested interest of it. This helps debunk the weak but widely popular argument that if all companies used and created Free/OpenSouce Software, the poor bluecollar programmers would be without a job. This is not true. Other companies who do not directly hire developers will fund the project if they find it useful i.e. DARPA funding OpenBSD.
Perhaps buisness model was not the best phrase but the english language sucks and my vocabulary is not very.... good.
I wish there was some there was some way that I could be outside playing basketball, in the rain, and not get wet.
There's a guy from ML on one of my projects who has submitted a wealth of code. kinda cool to see that this isn't an isolated thing but instead a culture within the company.
Unfortunately their firewall still prevents him from direct CVS checkins so everything has to be funneled through other committers.
However people who create software still need to be paid for their work, and the only way to do that is to control dissemination of the software.
That's simply not true. There are other ways to make money off of software; it's just that restricting dissemination and use of the software has been the laziest route to do so.
The development team typically has a thorough understanding of the software, and can offer customization and training for a price. There are always going to be people or organizations who will find value in paying someone for support of their software, either directly through support contracts or indirectly by training or certifying their in-house support personnel.
Open-source projects have also served as unofficial resumes for programmers, who have gotten jobs doing some other software development and continue to contribute their free time. (Linus at Transmeta, anyone?)
The people out in the field who contribute bug fixes and improvements in the course of their sysadmin duties are usually getting paid to support/administer those systems; each one who does is one less developer the core team has to pay for.
Hardware manufacturers contribute to porting open-source projects to their platforms; that development work is "paid for" by increasing the functionality of the hardware, making it more likely people will purchase the hardware.
All of these points have been made over and over ad nauseum; I can only assume you're clinging to your notion that "developers don't get paid if they give their software away" out of sheer stubbornness.
The problem with most open source advocatacy is that they don't address the second issue.
No, the problem is that you've made an arrogant assumption that restricting distribution is the only way to make money off of software, and won't listen to anyone who suggests otherwise.
Jay (=
There's nothing wrong with capitalism. And anyways, open source makes A LOT of sense from a business point of view for MANY companies.
It seems very ironic that people insist on putting down capitalism, the only system fostering the kind of freedoms required for such open exchange of ideas and freedom of association.
What obligations, you leech?!?!
They've already got a company making a product that's making your snivelling existance better...
But that's not enough for you, is it?
friggn useless eater...
they provide a service,product,etc and you bitch that they're STILL not doing enough...
we gotta burn these commies out once and for all
we aren't talking about Macs
If your bank's talking heads really are interested in secure computing environments then they will then do an initial cost study between the initial and maintenance costs of various methods (including the current one) to provide the needed functionality. Only then after having an estimate can they work to see (or not see) a tangible price for hiring a consultant to actually do and report on a detailed study on how exactly secure the various solutions are. What will happen will be that they will have to then admit that "free" is a misnomer in both the initial and maintenance costs as well as the factor of "you get what you pay for." Why should a software company that gets paid up front costs for software and yet also charges for support then really care about the actual services rendered if they can keep the bait alive and active with yearly "upgrades"? It is a business model that only works when supported by fools. Business leaders that demand quality will not fall prey to such nonsense and only then will these incompetent (in technology but fantastic in marketing and litigation) behemoths turn to providing quality products and services... that is all I really care about, not any religious crusade by anyone.
windows pre-emptive threading model is not appropriate for hardcore server applications and microsoft centric companies are beginning to realize this. for those who say windows scales, setup Oracle 9i and SQL Server 2K on a single CPU box. then send 400 concurrent queries. I know from first hand experience SQL Server can't handle it on a single CPU system, but Oracle can.
Why is OSS seen as conflicting with Capitalism? Capitalism is about competition, and leveraging strengths to best advantage.
This article should be posted whenever Communist and Linux comes up in the same sentence.
Good software = good biz...
--Joey
is
..So I do not guess and use plain old text.
Thanks,
Gerard
... all corporations are sniffing out ways to save money short term, the economic cycle is to blame here, not a sudden corporate embrace of open source.
I am vindicated where I work. We have been using open source for years, even during the good times, and got the hell busted out of our balls for it. Now people call us for advice. Hopefully they will now see the light as their uptime increases, despite spending less money.
l8,
AC
Very large financial company...