Talk It Over With Captain Crunch

John T. Draper is most famous as "Captain Crunch," the legendary phone phreak who taught others how to make illicit use of Ma Bell's facilities to call almost anywhere, almost any time, for free. But (as a glance at his personal page will show you), that is just about the least of Draper's accomplishments. Not only that, he's still going strong. This is your chance to talk directly to a man without whom the modern-day personal computer -- and modern hacking and many other things we take for granted -- might not exist at all, and certainly would not exist in their current forms. One question per post please, and try to avoid asking questions that could be answered with a little online research. We'll send 10 or 12 of the highest-moderated questions to Draper tomorrow, and run his answers as soon as he has time to reply.

Comments

lame ass question

[fussman]

Has your view of computer security (in terms of effectiveness) changed as opposed to security 10 years ago?

Re:lame ass question

[Slime-dogg]

You know... it should be phrased more like "How has your view changed?"

It assumes that it has changed, but everything changes, so it's a safe bet. The difference, though, is a detailed answer vs. a "Yes" or "No." Lately, I've seen interviews (william shatner, others) where the questions have promoted short answers that completely fulfilled the question.

What grab�s you now?

[JamesSharman]

Anyone who can call themselves a hacker (in the old sense of the world) will have lost sleep to a problem, that one that you absolutely must solve. In your formative years I expect phreaking or hacking problems grabbed you in this way, for each of us it's something different but it's the drive and focus we have in common. My question is, what grabs you like this now? Do you still get those moments when you just can't leave a problem alone?

Re:What grab�s you now?

[Anonymous Coward]

My question for you is do you know the meaning of "run on sentence." Here is a translation of his post that would probably make a better question:

Most hackers have lost sleep over an especially challenging problem at some point. When you were younger I expect that hacking and phreaking was one of these problems for you. Each of us has had different problems that have plagued us but it is the drive and focus that we have in common. Do you still have moments like this and if so, what type of problem grabs you now.

Re:What grab�s you now?

[NixterAg]

This is offtopic but the parent's question reminded me of a funny story.

A few years ago Larry King was interviewing Stephen Hawking, one of the great minds of our time and the world's best known physicist, and he asked a similar question.

"What problem do you think about the most? What problem plagues your mind the most?" queried King.

After a short pause, Hawking's synthesizer replied succintly: "Women."

Crunchbox

[Triumph The Insult C]

Will/Have you ever make/made any changes you've made to OpenBSD for your Crunchbox available to the OpenBSD group?

Re:Crunchbox

[Triumph The Insult C]

they're not forced to do anything, but it is a courteous thing to do. along the lines of don't bite the hand that feeds you. not being forced to do anything is the beauty of the bsd license.

the crunchbox runs openbsd. if the crunchbox is going to be profitable, they need to keep costs down (obvious). they do this by using a free os. however, suppose theo decided to end the obsd project. shopip is suddenly sol. sure, they could switch to fbsd, nbsd, or even linux. but now, they'd have to re-tool everything, and that will cost $$ ... profits.

if they give back, that may encourage other companies to give back too. by companies giving back valuable code, obsd may become a solution for someone that, prior to donated code, was not a solution. that new customer(s) may contribute resources to the project (cd/tshirt sales, write new code of their own, hardware to test, etc etc). things get peachy all-around.

example? if enough companies gave code to the obsd project, that may (although highly unlikely) encourage cisco to release vrrp with a no nonsense, free for all to use for whatever purpose, license. obsd could then become a solution to many people looking to build a redundant firewall solution using known technology. even shopip/draper could profit from that.

The ethics of Phreaking

[levik]

While many people who pirate software can claim that because the publisher suffers no physical loss of product, no actual theft has taken place, phone phreakers of old have no such defense. The global reach of the internet and the falling prices of Long Distance calls have made freaking a thing of the past, but it was quite widespread back in the late 80s and early 90s. Did you (meaning Phreakers in general) have any ethical qualms about stealing service not only from the big bell companies, but also sometimes from their customers who were later forced to pay for the phone charges that were run up?

Gone forever?

[RosCabezas]

Are the phreaking times gone forever with the digital technology or it ain't interesting anymore since we have the internet?

Re:Gone forever?

[Creepy]

since '83, phreaking hasn't been the same... it's more hacking and stealing now (but some people argue that's what it was then, as well). Before that, the phone company used tonal verification for coin drops into pay phones (which is what the whistle, and later black/red/orange/etc boxes spoof). Nowadays, phones mostly handle this internally.

I remember some pirate/hacker (child/teen-hood) friends using different colored boxes for their long distance downloads and uploads, but that ended before I actually built one myself. I was even saving allowance money for parts when one of those guys told me they no longer worked.

nowadays, I suspect it's easier and more common to steal phone and/or credit cards than to hack the phone company to steal long distance. After having credit cards stolen, myself, though, I definitely have a VERY negative view of this practice.

Revised rules.

[Black Parrot]

> One question per post please, and try to avoid asking questions that could be answered with a little online research.

And don't read this article in Michigan.

Favorite story?

[JUSTONEMORELATTE]

In "Revenge of the Nerds," Woz tells the story of phreaking his way to Vatican City and trying to get the pope on the line, claiming to be Kissinger (IIRC)
Do you have a favorite story, either because of the people involved, the tech (high tech or low tech) used, or the problems solved along the way?

--

Re:Favorite story?

[Tackhead]

> In "Revenge of the Nerds," Woz tells the story of phreaking his way to Vatican City and trying to get the pope on the line, claiming to be Kissinger (IIRC)
> Do you have a favorite story, either because of the people involved, the tech (high tech or low tech) used, or the problems solved along the way?

Along those lines:

What do you consider the most outrageous hack you *did* perform, and likewise, what's the most outlandish hack you *didn't* do, but the media falsely ascribed to you out of fear and ignorance?

(For instance, Mitnick would probably list one of his many feats of social engineering as his "greatest hack", and his mythical ability to start World War III by whistling into a telephone as the most amazing ability falsely ascribed to him.)

P.S. I was born too late to even think about getting into boxing, but you were still an inspiration. *waves soldering iron* Thanks for being one of the guys whose ideas got me started on my way to a great career in tech.

Dear Captain Crunch,

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Captain Crunch.

Big fan of your work. But I was wondering, how come you couldn't rig up a couple of fancy grey boxes to fix your god damn slashdot problem?

Love,

Rizzizzle Rizzzzazzzat. Bizzat.

Still got your whistle?

[derbs]

Have you still got your original whistle? And if so, have you ever thought about putting it on eBay?

Changing legal climate

[TopShelf]

What is your outlook for the future of hacking high-tech consumer products? Given the increasingly hostile legal climate regarding these activities (DMCA et al) it appears that corporations have much stronger legal tools to go after hackers that in days gone by were seen as more of a not-well-understood nuisance factor. Are the good old days gone forever?

Gotta know

[unicron]

Mr. Crunch,

Your campaign seems to have the momentum of a runaway freight train. Why are you so popular?

Two Questions

[Anonymous Coward]

If you could go back and do it all over again, would you? Also, what do you consider to be the emerging playground (ie WiFi, etc) of phreaks today?

Hacking and the DMCA

[Mentorix]

Could you elaborate on your opinion of new laws like the DMCA in the US and the variants thereof that are being introduced in Europe and the rest of the world.

What would have happened differently if laws like the DMCA were in force during your first phreaking sessions?

Unfair demonization?

[SnakeEyes]

Mr. Draper,
It is an honor to "speak" with you.

Recently, in an information security class, I gave a presentation based mainly on your 1970's exploits and how you (and other's who have the fortunate distinction of not being made scapegoats by the government) helped lead to a more secure POTS system and stronger security in general, which is what most hackers want anyway.

My professor later berated my choice of topics as (his words not mine) "he is an obvious lawless felon and is not worthy of this class's time". How do you respond to this unfair characterization by others?

Also, it would seem that no lessons have been learned over the years since we still insist on punishing the messengers (hackers) rather than the cause (insecure systems). Is there any way you think we can change these perceptions?
Thank you.

Re:Unfair demonization?

[Overly Critical Guy]

What "most hackers want anyway" is to brag to their friends about their exploits. Please. They are not freedom fighters making the world safer for others, and they are not "messengers" who should be praised for breaking into people's computer systems. Simply because something is insecure does not give one the "right" to break into it.

I think this is obvious to most people, but there are those Slashbots who will instinctively disagree because they feel the need to glorify people who do this sort of thing. It will never change the fact that it is illegal.

Re:Unfair demonization?

[FatherOfONe]

While I think your prof/teacher is a bit extreme about this issue, I kinda see his point.

Forget technology for a moment. Let's say that someone finds a "flaw" in your locked door and then decides to use this knowledge to come in to your house during the day and watch TV. Then after months of doing this he tells the lock maker and you. Should you honor this person?

I for one would fee lucky that he didn't steal anything, but what he did was wrong.

Re:Unfair demonization?

[Bodrius]

And security experts find exploits, test them, inform the company responsible, and publicize them later.

They do not use them for personal kicks or gains in secret for months.

They do not inform other Freedom Fighters of the flaw before the victim, so they can use it for their own kicks and fun.

You see, the problem with "hackers" in this context is the same problem that "Freedom Fighter" has as a term... wherever you have "Freedom Fighters", you also have common criminals or worse using the term to legitimize themselves.

Breaking into a system does not make you a computer security hero, just like robbing a bank does not make you a political hero. It's the other stuff you do what may or may not justify those actions.

Regarding your questions, physical property is probably a bad metaphor to use for your argument:

1- Yes, if a business leaves the door unlocked or open and you walk in without permission, they can put you in jail.
They don't even need a door. It's called trespassing.
If you leave the door to your house open, a thief is still trespassing. It's private property.

2- You got the question backwards. You should be asking: is there any indication that the business is open and this is a common area?
For most businesses, there is such an indication: from parking lots to front desks there is an implicit contract that customers are welcome during business hours. This contract can be terminated at any point: they give you a notice (ask you to leave), and if you reappear, you're trespassing.
However, this implicit contract does not apply to premises that are never open to customers in the first place.
If you're caught sneaking into an internal office, or specially into the maintenance rooms, sewer system, ventilation, etc. you can be charged with trespassing.

You may have some defense if you can argue that you were confused, lost, etc. And it is very likely that the owner of a property wouldn't bother to press charges for typical tresspasing.

But don't keep any illusions that they can't put you into jail for entering an unlocked office without permission.

Age and views

[binaryDigit]

This is similar I'm sure to questions you get asked all the time, but with, I think, a slightly different twist.

In what context do you put your activities of your youth now that you are older and, presumably, wiser. Have your views of hacking and the ethical implications changed over the years? Back then, if it were demonstrable to you that your activities were causing harm (presumably financial), would it have made any difference back then, does it make any differnce now?

Another one down

[menasius]

This is kinda like taking pop-shots at rare or endangered species:

Tuesday April 15th:
wake-up
pay bills
Slashdot a living legends homepage
lunch ...

-bart

My question...

[WinterSilence]

Do you think your former actions in any way have affected the way big telecommunications providers look at themselves, their services and specially how their attitude and feeling of/behaving like they are always more right and migthier than the normal costumer ? And if so, what did you achive to change, even this was an uninteded side-effect of your former actions ?

Some FAQs to avoid...

[MadFarmAnimalz]

Here.

what was it like?

[iocat]

What was the mood or zeitgeist like in the early days of the Phreaker/Hacker world? I mean, how did it feel to go from nothing to suddenly learning how to control the phone system? The feeling of excitement, exploration, and power must have been really intense, and I'd love to hear more about that. Excellent site by the way!

OpenBSD

[Mr.Intel]

What prompted you to use OpenBSD as the platform for the Crunch Box? Not intending to start a BSD flame war, I am interested in why you personally chose OpenBSD versus any other BSD or Linux or anything else.

What BBS's, if any did you frequent?

[Hansele]

I was curious what BBS's you frequented back in the day. I used to hang out on BBS's that ranged from Ripco in Chicago (very popular phreaker hangout) to USS Enterprise in Houston, TX, and of course, phreaking was the way that one tended to call BBS's. Nowdays computing is so much less "fun" than it used to be really. I remember using my trusty TI-99/4A to dial for codes with a program a friend and I wrote, wardialing, etc. All I can do is hang out on gamer sites and code sites like Naughtycodes

Phreaking in Popular Media

[ParadoxDruid]

Many movies portray hackers and phreaks in various, mostly inaccurate ways, from the fun but fantasy of movies like "Hackers" to the more recent depictions like The Rat in the new movie "The Core", who uses a comb as a whistle to phreak someone's cell phone. My question is: How do you feel about these depictions of phreaks and hackers? Is it good that media largely glosses over the reality, and focuses on making them look hip, or is it vaguely insulting?

Little boys

[Anonymous Coward]

There have been rumours that you use your status within the 'hacker community' to lure young boys into having sex with you. Is that true, or would you like to refute those claims.

I also hear that you're a big proponant of illicit drug use, has this been a life time habit, or something more recent, such as when you started going to raves.

PS.. maybe its a troll, but if you've met him, you know the above it true.

Re:Little boys

[Anonymous Coward]

I notice most of the posts concerning Draper's bizarre behavior have been modded down so I decided to add my own personal experience of meeting up with Captain Crunch.

I way 19 when we met, around 3 years ago, at a security conference we were both invited to speak at.

Let's get this out of the way: Draper is a very interesting, but also very weird, toothless drug user, but I'm not sure whether or not he's a sexual predator.

However...

1. He did invite me and a couple of other boys to his hotel room, and tried to interest us in his "energy workouts". I didn't perceive anything sexual about this. He claimed the energy workouts were a substitute for sleep. According to Draper he routinely gets only 1-2 hours sleep a night (and doesn't need anymore). I was curious. He asked me to jump on his back so I could see how strong the workouts made his back. According to Draper he developed the workouts after mafiozos in jail beat the shit out of him, injuring his back after he refuse to teach them how to phreak. Anyway, I hesitated because he seems old and frail and I was afraid I would damage him. He actually carried me on his back around the room. After that, he put me down, and asked the other guys to jump on his back. They freaked, and after a couple of minutes they found an excuse to leave and I left with them.

2. I met Draper again later that night, for an after party rave conference goers were invited to. John has amazing energy for a man his age, he was setting the tone at the rave, and was easily the oldest person there. He looks considerably older than his age, so he actually looked alot older than the oldest person there. He later claimed he had a real energy connection with the DJ going. (I was feeding off his energy, and he was feeding off mine, at it was just amazing!).

3. We left the party together and I had a chance to walk with him alone to his hotel (early morning). We had a very interesting conversation, and he basically spilled his guts and told me his life story over breakfast at the hotel (he was very nice and invited me to join him).

4. I was not threatened at any point at the least by Draper. My impression of him was very sad. He's been there right at the beginning, and if he hadn't blown it he would probably be a billionaire today. He recognizes this, and his eyes actually watered when he told me the story.

5. He does have a bad habit of begging. He does kind of look like a bum. He is by no means a security expert. He isn't really that much of a hacker.

6. If anything, Draper is a hippie who never grew up. He acts like an emotionally under developed teenager, and looks like a burnt-out relic. Maybe he just burned brighter than the rest of them, but I suspect he's been through some very hard times.

7. I was glad I met John. He's a prehistoric hacker, and at the same time a moral-to-the-story, this-is-what-you-could-end-up-like-if-you-don't-cu t-the-crap kind of guy. His life would probably make for a very emotional movie.

8. May be he's homosexual, was a special interest in young men, but that doesn't make him a bad person in my opinion. Sexually harassing young men who are physically much stronger than you is a very unhealthy idea, and I'm sure anyone into that would have caught on by now. (perhaps loosing a few teeth in the process... just joking...)

My two cents.
Cheers.

DMCA overhaul recommendations?

[Dukeofshadows]

What sorts of changes (5-7 most important) do you think could be made to the DMCA that would provide reliable protection for intellectual property while minimally intruding on innovation?

Where is the bleeding edge?

[SoupIsGood Food]

What illicit technology offers the most fun and challenge today... where are the new frontiers for today's hackers to push the bleeding edge, and what interesting directions do you see them taking with it?

SoupIsGood Food

Your most useful references

[Laser JetSet]

What books, websites, IRC sites, etc would you suggest for an aspiring security engineer? Do you think these have any useful information, or it impossible to learn the necessary skills from these sources?

if you could do it again..

[phrawzty]

Dear Sir,

Having grown up (there's a scary thought) hearing about the pioneering work you did, i always wondered:

If you could do it over again, would you do something differently? Anything you regret doing? Perhaps more importantly, anything you regret having not done?

(In the context of your telecom / computer life, i don't mean to pry into your.. ah.. personal affairs :) ).

Steve Jobs

[Gizzmonic]

Are you and Steve Jobs still friends? Is it true that your "blue box" design inspired the iMac?

YOUR fault we're in this mess???

[swordgeek]

In your day, phreakers et al were pretty much barely a blip on the radar screen. A few of you got charged with old laws, several were threatened or intimidated, and many many kids followed in your wake.

Now we're watching a world get built where PhD thesis material might be illegal, writing code can get you arrested and charged, and even giving an academic presentation is threatened.

How much responsibility, if any, do you think the early phreakers and hackers have for this rash of paranoid law?

Tastes great/Less filling- obscurity or security?

[skillet-thief]

In comparing the security back in the day, and modern, much more complicated systems, how much of a factor is overall complexity in the way things have changed over the years? Does more complexity (and therefore obscurity) make things harder, or does it make things easier, since even the people doing the security don't understand what's going on?

In other words, what's your take on obscurity/security?

Personal choice for fame

[mikeraz]

OK, a large chunck of the world knows you for doing amazing things with cereal box toys. What would you like to be famous for doing? Actual or fantasy.

Some Biography for /.

[sielwolf]

You can get a good bio on the Captain on the Rotten Library. Most interesting:

His "handle" came from the inclusion of a plastic whistle in Captain Crunch cereal in the 1960's which could, with proper manipulation, send out a control tone that would affect telephone systems of the time. Of course, Draper didn't actually discover that fact (the honor goes to a blind phone phreak named Joe Engressia) but he was quite happy to not go out of his way to correct people when they claimed he had.

Recent events and the DMCA

[Mikey-San]

Lately, there have been many instances of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act being used to prevent the publication of security issues found with various companies' products and services, or both.

A recent story here on Slashdot covered university ID cards being flawed, and the DMCA being invoked to prevent discussion of the problem publicly.

Given that your /dig,/ so to speak, is security, what is your take on such invocations of the Act?

-/-
Mikey-San
http://www.mikey-san.net/

Re:Cereal

[stuntpope]

Don't be so overly criti.. oh, wait.

Re:Unfair demonization - or accurate portrayal?

[Havokmon]

My professor later berated my choice of topics as (his words not mine) "he is an obvious lawless felon and is not worthy of this class's time". How do you respond to this unfair characterization by others?

Or better:

How do you respond to those who say you merely stumbled onto something (the whistle) that did something that was already known by EVERYONE (2600hz tones which was published in AT&T Manuals in PUBLIC Libraries), and exploited it for personal gain (free phone calls/publicity)?

Re: Cereal

[Black Parrot]

> It's much easier to mod me down than to post an intelligent reply.

More satisfying, too!

What do you think of the current 2600 crowd?

[Archeopteryx]

John,

Seems to me that the current crop of "2600" folks are much less tech-savvy than we were in the 70s. There is a lack of original thought and a willingness to take actions that cost private individuals money through fraud and vandalism. What do you make of this trend, and do you see any indications that it will turn around?

-Ben

Check his website- White house toilet paper hoax!

[mekkab]

Its a good story too- they got nixon on the phone through their phone phreaking ways and told them of a crisis in Los Angeles- THEY WERE OUT OF TOILET PAPER!

Nixon was not amused.

Civil Rights & Privacy Fears

[Alric]

It seems that every week brings some new bill or rider or regulation whose intended goal is strip away yet another sliver of our shrinking collection of privacy rights and individual liberties.

Considering your unique set of experience and insight, what do you most fear in the impending struggle between the government's desire to have total information and the people's right to liberty? Or, in other words, against what do we need to be most vigilant?

Can't believe this one hasn't been asked

[headjack]

So, does the Crunchbox have a cereal interface?

Present state of telco security

[robslimo]

In the "olden days" (not so long ago), other than some of the physical kind, security was almost non existent at telcos. For many years, AT&T published all the technical details of their networks and switchgear in a tech journal that could be found at nearly any university library.

In the mid-80's, I lived in an apartment that was right upstairs from a GTE Telenet point of presense... and all their dialup modem lines terminated in an unlocked punchblock box *in my bathroom*!!

What is your assessment of the improvements in the quality of telco security, both physical and that which is more ephymeral, since those times?

Effective Action

[CERonin]

What is the most effective thing a "Netizen" can do to protect themselves, and their freedoms (whatever's left, anyway), online?

O.K., that's really two questions. 1.5 Questions? Is it permissible to have a fractal number of questions? Anyway, thanks in advance.

2600 Groups

[Oriumpor]

I had the opportunity to meet you briefly about 4 years ago at a 2600 gathering in San Jose, and you were talking about your "latest" (at the time) escapade to India, (or was it Pakistan, I don't remember) explaining that you frequented night clubs and danced the night away. (Of course all the while speaking about current tech issues etc.)

With a moniker like "Captain Crunch" one can only assume you carry that spirit with you in everything you do. As your current project demands, do you get put infront of the gun frequently? How do you deal with it?

To hell with all these

[Anne_Nonymous]

questions about the "good old days". Tell us what the future holds in store IYHO (phreaking-wise, cracking-wise, or hacking-wise, that is).

Who Loses?

[Threed]

The main source of pain to the customers of the defrauded organization would be the practice of carding. No one could deny that running up a bill on someone else's tab isn't nice, even if you know the sap will never have to pay for it (insurance, whatever).

But what if you merely tricked the phone company's representative (the computerized switchboard) into giving you the service for free? That's where the real gray area begins. Who really loses if that pair of wires was going to go to waste at that moment anyway?

Re:Cereal

[outsider007]

and do you jokingly refer to your mouth as a 'cereal port'?

A Hacker's Life in Prison

[Nintendork]

What can a hacker/phreaker expect living in prison? How do the other inmates react when they hear why you're locked up? Do they restrict your access to books on technology? Can you request books? Any fear of the "sisters"?

-Lucas

coding style

[mboedick]

I read somewhere (might have been Hackers by Steven Levy) that you have a highly idiosyncractic and paranoid coding style, checking and double-checking everything. Is this true? What can you tell us about it?

I saw you naked. What was that about?

[gmplague]

I saw you walking around naked (well, half-jogging, half-running really) at H2K (The Hackers On Planet Earth in 2000 Conference), with a few of New York City's finest police officers trailing about 50 feet behind you. My question is, what was that about? It has always peaked my curiousity. Was it more trouble with the law, or just a misunderstanding, or both? I appreciate your response.

Draper

[DNS-and-BIND]

Is it true you're known as John "Butt Raper" Draper? Is it true you're an old, nasty troll who likes to hang around raves and drool on underage kids? Is it true you're just a homeless bum? Is it true you used to go to hacker cons just to try and get boys to go to your hotel room for a "massage"? Is it true you fucked Grayareas? Eww that bitch was nasty.

Before anyone mods me down, these are real questions, ask anyone who came in contact with the creepy buttraper draper.

The question on everybody's mind...

[frank_adrian314159]

Which long distance calling plan do you use?

It's a reference to WHY his nick is Captain Crunch

[Ungrounded Lightning]

Wasn't this suppose to be a joke question? A play on the breakfast cereal character Captain Crunch? Yet pumped up as interesting..

No. It's a reference to why John's phreaker nick was Captain Crunch, back in the middle of the Twentieth Century.

In those days the long distance system used in-band signaling tones to connect, disconnect, and dial calls. The base system used a 2600 Hz tone to do the rough equivalent of "on-hook". (That's why 2600 magazine is named that.) The full-blown system also had a set of dual-tones, similar to touch-tones, to "dial" the call - but on some trunks (typically those going to legacy dial-only exchanges) you also dialed the call by switching the 2600 Hz tone on and off like a pulse dialer.

Phone Phreaks needed a tone generator to do the dual-tone system. But you could whistle the 2600 "disconnect" tone (especially if you had perfect pitch). If you were REALLY good you could also whistle pluses of it to dial calls. But that was tough. Something over 5 pulses per second or they separate into two digits. Get every digit right or you dial the wrong number.

Then Captain Crunch cereal came out with a prize inside - a plastic whistle. It JUST HAPPENED to be 2600 Hz. Oops! With the whistle it was REALLY EASY to "blow off" calls and/or to dial calls on the legacy-exchange trunks. John Draper noticed this, made heavy use of it, became famous in phreaker circles for it, and eventually used Captain Crunch as his phone phreak nickname.

So his first Captain Crunch plastic whistle is a real historical artifact. (And probably sitting in an evidence locker somewhere if he didn't lose it long ago.)