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Talk It Over With Captain Crunch
John T. Draper is most famous as "Captain Crunch," the legendary phone phreak who taught others how to make illicit use of Ma Bell's facilities to call almost anywhere, almost any time, for free. But (as a glance at his personal page will show you), that is just about the least of Draper's accomplishments. Not only that, he's still going strong. This is your chance to talk directly to a man without whom the modern-day personal computer -- and modern hacking and many other things we take for granted -- might not exist at all, and certainly would not exist in their current forms. One question per post please, and try to avoid asking questions that could be answered with a little online research. We'll send 10 or 12 of the highest-moderated questions to Draper tomorrow, and run his answers as soon as he has time to reply.
How much Captain Crunch cereal do you eat these days? Would you say it has gone up or gone down since your now-infamous discovery?
My
Limekiller
Has your view of computer security (in terms of effectiveness) changed as opposed to security 10 years ago?
Support Israeli punk bands. Man Alive.
Anyone who can call themselves a hacker (in the old sense of the world) will have lost sleep to a problem, that one that you absolutely must solve. In your formative years I expect phreaking or hacking problems grabbed you in this way, for each of us it's something different but it's the drive and focus we have in common. My question is, what grabs you like this now? Do you still get those moments when you just can't leave a problem alone?
Will/Have you ever make/made any changes you've made to OpenBSD for your Crunchbox available to the OpenBSD group?
vodka, straight up, thank you!
Ñ'
Are the phreaking times gone forever with the digital technology or it ain't interesting anymore since we have the internet?
> One question per post please, and try to avoid asking questions that could be answered with a little online research.
And don't read this article in Michigan.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
In "Revenge of the Nerds," Woz tells the story of phreaking his way to Vatican City and trying to get the pope on the line, claiming to be Kissinger (IIRC)
Do you have a favorite story, either because of the people involved, the tech (high tech or low tech) used, or the problems solved along the way?
--
Dear Captain Crunch.
Big fan of your work. But I was wondering, how come you couldn't rig up a couple of fancy grey boxes to fix your god damn slashdot problem?
Love,
Rizzizzle Rizzzzazzzat. Bizzat.
d0 j00 pj33r t00k4n s4m?
0r d4 k33b13r 3lf..
1337 d00d
Have you still got your original whistle? And if so, have you ever thought about putting it on eBay?
What is your outlook for the future of hacking high-tech consumer products? Given the increasingly hostile legal climate regarding these activities (DMCA et al) it appears that corporations have much stronger legal tools to go after hackers that in days gone by were seen as more of a not-well-understood nuisance factor. Are the good old days gone forever?
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Mr. Crunch,
Your campaign seems to have the momentum of a runaway freight train. Why are you so popular?
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
Will you please stop making that horrible "Peanut Butter Crunch?" The stuff tastes like ass. Please focus on those yummy Crunch Berries.
If you could go back and do it all over again, would you? Also, what do you consider to be the emerging playground (ie WiFi, etc) of phreaks today?
Could you elaborate on your opinion of new laws like the DMCA in the US and the variants thereof that are being introduced in Europe and the rest of the world.
What would have happened differently if laws like the DMCA were in force during your first phreaking sessions?
Mr. Draper,
It is an honor to "speak" with you.
Recently, in an information security class, I gave a presentation based mainly on your 1970's exploits and how you (and other's who have the fortunate distinction of not being made scapegoats by the government) helped lead to a more secure POTS system and stronger security in general, which is what most hackers want anyway.
My professor later berated my choice of topics as (his words not mine) "he is an obvious lawless felon and is not worthy of this class's time". How do you respond to this unfair characterization by others?
Also, it would seem that no lessons have been learned over the years since we still insist on punishing the messengers (hackers) rather than the cause (insecure systems). Is there any way you think we can change these perceptions?
Thank you.
Come on, Tinkler, Tink!!
Freedom on the internet is becoming increasingly threatened by corporate and government interests. What can a /. reader do to help prevent this?
Question everything.
This is similar I'm sure to questions you get asked all the time, but with, I think, a slightly different twist.
In what context do you put your activities of your youth now that you are older and, presumably, wiser. Have your views of hacking and the ethical implications changed over the years? Back then, if it were demonstrable to you that your activities were causing harm (presumably financial), would it have made any difference back then, does it make any differnce now?
This is kinda like taking pop-shots at rare or endangered species:
...
Tuesday April 15th:
wake-up
pay bills
Slashdot a living legends homepage
lunch
-bart
Do you think your former actions in any way have affected the way big telecommunications providers look at themselves, their services and specially how their attitude and feeling of/behaving like they are always more right and migthier than the normal costumer ? And if so, what did you achive to change, even this was an uninteded side-effect of your former actions ?
What kind of dog barks "BOFH! BOFH!"? A rootweiler of course...
Here.
Blearf. Blearf, I say.
What was the mood or zeitgeist like in the early days of the Phreaker/Hacker world? I mean, how did it feel to go from nothing to suddenly learning how to control the phone system? The feeling of excitement, exploration, and power must have been really intense, and I'd love to hear more about that. Excellent site by the way!
Dude, I think I can see my house from here.
What prompted you to use OpenBSD as the platform for the Crunch Box? Not intending to start a BSD flame war, I am interested in why you personally chose OpenBSD versus any other BSD or Linux or anything else.
ASCII tastes bad dude.
Binary it is then.
I was curious what BBS's you frequented back in the day. I used to hang out on BBS's that ranged from Ripco in Chicago (very popular phreaker hangout) to USS Enterprise in Houston, TX, and of course, phreaking was the way that one tended to call BBS's. Nowdays computing is so much less "fun" than it used to be really. I remember using my trusty TI-99/4A to dial for codes with a program a friend and I wrote, wardialing, etc. All I can do is hang out on gamer sites and code sites like Naughtycodes
Many movies portray hackers and phreaks in various, mostly inaccurate ways, from the fun but fantasy of movies like "Hackers" to the more recent depictions like The Rat in the new movie "The Core", who uses a comb as a whistle to phreak someone's cell phone. My question is: How do you feel about these depictions of phreaks and hackers? Is it good that media largely glosses over the reality, and focuses on making them look hip, or is it vaguely insulting?
This statement is solely an opinion. Kindly take it as such in all cases.
There have been rumours that you use your status within the 'hacker community' to lure young boys into having sex with you. Is that true, or would you like to refute those claims.
I also hear that you're a big proponant of illicit drug use, has this been a life time habit, or something more recent, such as when you started going to raves.
PS.. maybe its a troll, but if you've met him, you know the above it true.
What sorts of changes (5-7 most important) do you think could be made to the DMCA that would provide reliable protection for intellectual property while minimally intruding on innovation?
As long as there is a Second Amendment, there will always be a First Amendment.
What illicit technology offers the most fun and challenge today... where are the new frontiers for today's hackers to push the bleeding edge, and what interesting directions do you see them taking with it?
SoupIsGood Food
You want a sig? I'll give you a sig.
Dear Sir,
:) ).
Having grown up (there's a scary thought) hearing about the pioneering work you did, i always wondered:
If you could do it over again, would you do something differently? Anything you regret doing? Perhaps more importantly, anything you regret having not done?
(In the context of your telecom / computer life, i don't mean to pry into your.. ah.. personal affairs
Are you and Steve Jobs still friends? Is it true that your "blue box" design inspired the iMac?
(-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
In your day, phreakers et al were pretty much barely a blip on the radar screen. A few of you got charged with old laws, several were threatened or intimidated, and many many kids followed in your wake.
Now we're watching a world get built where PhD thesis material might be illegal, writing code can get you arrested and charged, and even giving an academic presentation is threatened.
How much responsibility, if any, do you think the early phreakers and hackers have for this rash of paranoid law?
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
In comparing the security back in the day, and modern, much more complicated systems, how much of a factor is overall complexity in the way things have changed over the years? Does more complexity (and therefore obscurity) make things harder, or does it make things easier, since even the people doing the security don't understand what's going on?
In other words, what's your take on obscurity/security?
Congratulations! Now we are the Evil Empire
OK, a large chunck of the world knows you for doing amazing things with cereal box toys. What would you like to be famous for doing? Actual or fantasy.
There's more to it than this.
What is music when you despise all sound?
Are you, or have you ever been, a member of or in anyway affiliated with the 2600 club of which they named themselves after the phone frequency that you used to gain free access to the network?
come on fhqwhgads
Lately, there have been many instances of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act being used to prevent the publication of security issues found with various companies' products and services, or both.
/dig,/ so to speak, is security, what is your take on such invocations of the Act?
A recent story here on Slashdot covered university ID cards being flawed, and the DMCA being invoked to prevent discussion of the problem publicly.
Given that your
-/-
Mikey-San
http://www.mikey-san.net/
Mikey-San
Karma: +Eleventy billion (mostly affected by watching Celebrity Jeopardy)
Or better:
How do you respond to those who say you merely stumbled onto something (the whistle) that did something that was already known by EVERYONE (2600hz tones which was published in AT&T Manuals in PUBLIC Libraries), and exploited it for personal gain (free phone calls/publicity)?
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
John,
Seems to me that the current crop of "2600" folks are much less tech-savvy than we were in the 70s. There is a lack of original thought and a willingness to take actions that cost private individuals money through fraud and vandalism. What do you make of this trend, and do you see any indications that it will turn around?
-Ben
Dog is my co-pilot.
But the nice thing about language is the fact that it isn't permanent, definitions can be flexible, and can even change outright. Computer geeks tend to be a bit annoyed with this aspect of language since it makes it harder for us to write computer programs where the meaning of a word might change one day.
I really hate signatures, but go to my website.
Its a good story too- they got nixon on the phone through their phone phreaking ways and told them of a crisis in Los Angeles- THEY WERE OUT OF TOILET PAPER!
Nixon was not amused.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
It seems that every week brings some new bill or rider or regulation whose intended goal is strip away yet another sliver of our shrinking collection of privacy rights and individual liberties.
Considering your unique set of experience and insight, what do you most fear in the impending struggle between the government's desire to have total information and the people's right to liberty? Or, in other words, against what do we need to be most vigilant?
s/hacker/cracker/
or
s/cracker/hacker/
it just doesn't matter anymore...the media has blurred the definition
So, does the Crunchbox have a cereal interface?
In the "olden days" (not so long ago), other than some of the physical kind, security was almost non existent at telcos. For many years, AT&T published all the technical details of their networks and switchgear in a tech journal that could be found at nearly any university library.
In the mid-80's, I lived in an apartment that was right upstairs from a GTE Telenet point of presense... and all their dialup modem lines terminated in an unlocked punchblock box *in my bathroom*!!
What is your assessment of the improvements in the quality of telco security, both physical and that which is more ephymeral, since those times?
Yes, questions that could be answered with a little online research are more appropriate for Ask Slashdot.
Moderators, please read this message fully before you mod it down (or up).
Mr. Draper, hasn't this charade gone on long enough? Slashdot is only the latest in an endless, decades-long set of press appearances in which you've made errored claims, false self-aggrandizement, and general harm to the very community you claim to be a part (and representative) of.
Why do you continue to let people think you discovered the secret of the Captain Crunch whistle? It was Joe Engressia and other blind phone phreaks who made that delightful serendiptous discovery, that the whistle in Captain Crunch Cereal in the 1960's was within the same tone range as the vital 2600hz that telephone trunks used to signal a TSPS console. You named yourself after the cereal, which is perfectly acceptable, but when the press (which you sought) started representing you as the discoverer of this secret, why did you take no effort to dissuade them? Why do you let the people who were much more technologically astute than you lose the glory in later years, when at least we can have an accurate historical picture of those times?
You went through several stints in the federal pen for your actions. In one case it could be argued you were being entrapped, with the challenge being laid to you to prove your mettle and you going to one of the nearby (tapped) telephone booths to get caught, but shouldn't you at least warn all these young fans who don't know how much pain you endured under that system? Your gift was never in innovation, but in experience; you travelled and travel a lot, and got to see many things, including many negative things. Why not make a real effort to tell that story?
Why do you continually use your (unearned) stature within the hacker community to pursue and seduce young people within it? Is it pathological? Have you sought help? Many of these poor kids, lacking parental guidance, swayed by your legend, fascinated with your promises, have fallen under your efforts. Many others who were ham-fistedly assaulted with your pick-up lines and moves have gone on to warn others, but still you use these hacker conventions and raves as your personal fishing ground. Don't you think that this will eventually blow up in your face, and give the world at large another tool to crack down on the hacker world unfairly, once you're shown as an example of one of the predators that lurk within its bounds?
It would be my dream to have these questions presented to you, but I understand if they won't. I wish there were a webpage, a support group, a place that young people could go to learn your story, the real one, the ugly one. If one young mind could be saved and their hearts aimed at true heroes, like Mark Bernay (the Midnight Skulker) or Cheshire Catalyst or Phil Zimmerman or Gary Kildall, perhaps the world would be a better place.
Why are you still doing this to us?
Did you really design a bluebox add-in card for the
Apple ][? What could the board do? How did
management react to it (I believe they had a
panic attack and canceled your project??)
O.K., that's really two questions. 1.5 Questions? Is it permissible to have a fractal number of questions? Anyway, thanks in advance.
stirring the pot since nineteen mumblty mumble...
I had the opportunity to meet you briefly about 4 years ago at a 2600 gathering in San Jose, and you were talking about your "latest" (at the time) escapade to India, (or was it Pakistan, I don't remember) explaining that you frequented night clubs and danced the night away. (Of course all the while speaking about current tech issues etc.)
With a moniker like "Captain Crunch" one can only assume you carry that spirit with you in everything you do. As your current project demands, do you get put infront of the gun frequently? How do you deal with it?
Great, we slashdotted Captain Crunch, we're all going to hell.
Hi Captain,
How do you imagine today's computer industry would be different had the DMCA been enacted during the industry's infancy?
questions about the "good old days". Tell us what the future holds in store IYHO (phreaking-wise, cracking-wise, or hacking-wise, that is).
The main source of pain to the customers of the defrauded organization would be the practice of carding. No one could deny that running up a bill on someone else's tab isn't nice, even if you know the sap will never have to pay for it (insurance, whatever).
But what if you merely tricked the phone company's representative (the computerized switchboard) into giving you the service for free? That's where the real gray area begins. Who really loses if that pair of wires was going to go to waste at that moment anyway?
Do you find telemarketers a problem? If no, how is it you've managed to deal with them?
-Lucas
Have you ever considered being a promotional figure for Cap'n Crunch cereal? *I* think it'd be a lot more interesting than the animated Captain...
May we never see th
How would you say the average computer geek/nerd or phone phreak has changed since computers have become so easily accessible since the 60s'-70s'?
For The Best Jazz/Hip-hop fusion > COlD DUCK
I read somewhere (might have been Hackers by Steven Levy) that you have a highly idiosyncractic and paranoid coding style, checking and double-checking everything. Is this true? What can you tell us about it?
I saw you walking around naked (well, half-jogging, half-running really) at H2K (The Hackers On Planet Earth in 2000 Conference), with a few of New York City's finest police officers trailing about 50 feet behind you. My question is, what was that about? It has always peaked my curiousity. Was it more trouble with the law, or just a misunderstanding, or both? I appreciate your response.
__________________________________________
Take comfort in your ignorance.
Grandmaster Plague
...us slashdotting your website?
Before anyone mods me down, these are real questions, ask anyone who came in contact with the creepy buttraper draper.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Which long distance calling plan do you use?
That is all.
Wasn't this suppose to be a joke question? A play on the breakfast cereal character Captain Crunch? Yet pumped up as interesting..
No. It's a reference to why John's phreaker nick was Captain Crunch, back in the middle of the Twentieth Century.
In those days the long distance system used in-band signaling tones to connect, disconnect, and dial calls. The base system used a 2600 Hz tone to do the rough equivalent of "on-hook". (That's why 2600 magazine is named that.) The full-blown system also had a set of dual-tones, similar to touch-tones, to "dial" the call - but on some trunks (typically those going to legacy dial-only exchanges) you also dialed the call by switching the 2600 Hz tone on and off like a pulse dialer.
Phone Phreaks needed a tone generator to do the dual-tone system. But you could whistle the 2600 "disconnect" tone (especially if you had perfect pitch). If you were REALLY good you could also whistle pluses of it to dial calls. But that was tough. Something over 5 pulses per second or they separate into two digits. Get every digit right or you dial the wrong number.
Then Captain Crunch cereal came out with a prize inside - a plastic whistle. It JUST HAPPENED to be 2600 Hz. Oops! With the whistle it was REALLY EASY to "blow off" calls and/or to dial calls on the legacy-exchange trunks. John Draper noticed this, made heavy use of it, became famous in phreaker circles for it, and eventually used Captain Crunch as his phone phreak nickname.
So his first Captain Crunch plastic whistle is a real historical artifact. (And probably sitting in an evidence locker somewhere if he didn't lose it long ago.)
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Actually Crunch didn't discover the whistle, and I may have had a couple other items a bit off.
Here's the story in his words (via google's cache).
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Do you think the DMCA and other new restrictive laws dampen the spirit of hacking and will stifle innovations or are they a necessary evil of the age that we live in? Do you think many of these things would have happened anyway though even if the DMCA had always existed?
"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it." -Voltaire
Ok, hopefully this time I'll have the format setup properly. I apologize...
Q: I was curious what BBS's you frequented back in the day. I used to hang out on BBS's that ranged from Ripco in Chicago (very popular phreaker hangout) to USS Enterprise in Houston, TX, and of course, phreaking was the way that one tended to call BBS's.
A: I never went into any of the BBS's. I Do remember the controversy of the 8BBS one. It was on a PDP-8 (Really old schoolers would know this one). Then, I joined the WELL in 1983.
Q: Do you regret adding the 'crunch berry' to your popular formula, just to hype up what was already a perfectly good product?
A: Perhaps I should put "crunch Berrys" in the Crunchbox. No, I got a better idea, why not I just pack a box of CrunchBerries with each Crunchbox?
Q: Do you think that such actions will lead to cereal deflation among your territories?
A: WOW! Interesting point.... perhaps it might shift the whole new world order (dis-order?)
Q: How do you feel about these depictions of phreaks and hackers? Is it good that media largely glosses over the reality, and focuses on making them look hip, or is it vaguely insulting?
A: If it sells movies, they will do it... and make whatever representitives they want in order to sell movies.
Q: What illicit technology offers the most fun and challenge today... where are the new frontiers for today's hackers to push the bleeding edge, and what interesting directions do you see them taking with it?
A: How about tracking down spammers and hacking into their PC's when they are spewing out all that spam? I mean, if people are going to hack, why not hack the spammers?
Q: My dad swears he met you in the late 70's. It's his only claim to fame.
So...is it true? Did you meet him?
A: I have no clue - I don't know you, or your dad, so how can I be sure?
Q: What books, websites, IRC sites, etc would you suggest for an aspiring security engineer? Do you think these have any useful information, or it impossible to learn the necessary skills from these sources?
A: I frequent the computer security web sites like Securityfocus, BugTrax, etc. Some do, others don't. Best way to learn, is to "tinker", but we have to get rid of the DCMA first, so write to your congressman.
Q: Is there a cereal box whistle that will get me past the "The page cannot be displayed" message?
A: Yes, it's called "TIME"... I'm sure you'll be able to access "webcrunchers.com" soon, just let the effects of the slashdot wear off. I've had to cut way down on the number of people who can get on it, by request of my Co-lo
Q: If you could do it over again, would you do something differently? Anything you regret doing? Perhaps more importantly, anything you regret having not done?
A: Yes - NEVER trust your best friend. I've always been a trusting guy. somewhat naive, but always quick to help people out. But people fuck up, which got me in trouble.
Q: Are you and Steve Jobs still friends? Is it true that your "blue box" design inspired the iMac?
A: Jobs wouldn't give me the time of day. I'm always in touch with Woz and Mitnick (which I assume is at the RSA Conf in SF at the moment)
Q: In your day, phreakers et al were pretty much barely a blip on the radar screen. A few of you got charged with old laws, several were threatened or intimidated, and many many kids followed in your wake.
Now we're watching a world get built where PhD thesis material might be illegal [securityfocus.com], writing code can get you arrested [eff.org] and charged, and even giving an academic presentation [princeton.edu] is threatened.
How much responsibility, if any, do you think the early phreakers and hackers have for this rash of paranoid law?
A: It's all greed... back then, it was essentially the same... Phone co secrets were "Forbidden information", where mere posession of such information is ille
I was invited to the pre-screening party for Sneakers. This was where I learned my story was stolen by the hollywood people who of course would NEVER consider ever talking to me to get the real story.
Yes - I know all about the Sneakers movie.