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Firebird Name Debate Enters a New Stage
An anonymous reader writes "As many readers will know, mozilla.org was asked to change the name for their standalone browser, Phoenix as another browser had the same name. After months of discussion, the new name was announced as Mozilla Firebird. Despite the new name being approved by AOL Legal, supporters of the FirebirdSQL database were quick to object (though the name is also used by many other people). A coincidentally named supporter of FirebirdSQL, IBPhoenix, put up a slightly immature request for their readers to participate in mass posting campaign targetting mozilla.org developers' email accounts, newsgroups and even forums at independent sites such as MozillaZine and Slashdot. FirebirdSQL's official site later reiterated this message. However, IBPhoenix have now declared this shock-and-awe stage of their campaign over, heralding it a success. Their second stage calls for a more focussed email protest at just two of mozilla.org's members: Mitchell Baker (mozilla.org's leader) and Asa Dotzler (announcer of the name change). In addition, they ask their readers to move away from 'derogatory messages' and to show more 'courtesy'. Unsurprisingly, the beleaguered admins of affected sites such as MozillaZine have welcomed this change of direction. This is getting very interesting!"
how bout Daawtrtdfw? Google turns up nothing, so I'm sure its not taken.
:)
smile, you'll live longer.
This shows how hostile some members of the OSS crowd can be over something so simple as a name.
This is the same crowd that gets excited when corporations try to take domain names from people who have had them for years. Using this same logic, shouldn't Mozilla switch their name since FirebirdSQL used it first? Prior art and all...
This kind of petty (it's just a name), inmature (flooding people's e-mail), public arguing is one of the reasons Linux isn't getting the acceptance it should.
I think that's a well-known Welsh browser, actually.
:)
Are you sure you weren't searching English-only?
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
If it were my choice, the childish email campaign would just make me more determined to keep the firebird name. Sending offensive messages to people who have nothing to do with the name change is no way to get things done. Maybe AOL can send it's lawyers after IBPhoenix for DoSing them. They can easily show damages in lost developer time deleting the messages and extra load on their mail server.
Jason
ProfQuotes
I do not think that the Moz team should use Phoenix. Even though it probably passses a legal litmus test, as they are very different products, that doesn't mean they should continue to use it.
I think it would be nice to show some respect to another open source project which precedes yours. I am sure that if the database guys called their product MozillaDatabase, the Mozilla team wouldn't be very happy, and I am sure there would be an outcry on Slashdot. Or better yet, how about Microsoft changes one of their product to the name Phoenix. How about instead of MSN Messenger they call it MSN Firebird? Would everyone here tell the Firebird/Moz team to "quit crying"?
I guess the summary is, just play nice with others and change the name out of courtesy for others.
I find it hard to believe that this is how adults react in such a situation?
Do they think that annoying some group of people will make it better? If I were the mozilla group I would have issues with giving in. Brute force does not mean its right.
A database and a browser are not the same. There would not be any confusion. There has to be a better way to handle this.
I think I would be less likely to use or work on the database project now... all because on how they reacted.
-I just work here... how am I supposed to know?
to completely ignore these idiots and definitely
keep the name to spite them now. It might not be
a bad idea to write some sort of redirection or
"pitty party" filter code that rewrites the
offending morons websites like Opera did with
MSN.
For every annoying gentoo user, are three even more annoying anti-gentoo crybabies. Take Yosh from #Gimp for example.
The use of the name in this case is non-confusing and the SQL people with their database have no basis for interfering with the Mozilla people and their specialty browser. The only reason Phoenix had trouble was that the BIOS maker also had actual browser functionality being marketed under the Phoenix name. This sameness does not apply in the case of FireBird. To conclude, someone should bitch-slap these children for running a spam campaign to annoy one group of open-source programmers to change their non-similar project's name. What would be appropriate at this stage is if the SQL folks would give up their name as contrition for their inappropriate steps.
"Despite the new name being approved by AOL Legal, supporters of the FirebirdSQL database were quick to object (though the name is also used by many other people). A coincidentally named supporter of FirebirdSQL, IBPhoenix, put up a slightly immature request for their readers to participate in mass posting campaign targetting mozilla.org developers' email accounts, newsgroups and even forums at independent sites such as MozillaZine and Slashdot. FirebirdSQL's official site later reiterated this message. However, IBPhoenix have now declared this shock-and-awe stage of their campaign over, heralding it a success. "
Sounds similiar to tactics we hear around here, when it's a company or person we don't agree with. How many times have we heard "everyone E-mail them" or we're going to "/." their site?
Sounds like bad karma coming home to roost.
This is the problem with using a word from any established language. No matter what you choose, it is very likely that someone, somewhere is already using it, and won't like you using it. This is even more likely to happen if you use a word that has some kind of "coolness" or "geek" factor. This of course is not to say I think the name Firebird is at all interesting. In fact, it just doesn't roll off the tongue well enough for me use it. As for me and my house, we shall use "phoenix" unless someone gives me good reason to do otherwise.
j.goforth
It's all foolish. If they called it FirebirdSQL, that would be one thing. But the word "firebird" is still free use. Just like how we can stil call windows windows, even though Microsoft would probably try to claim otherwise, given the chance. But, since you can't claim a word like that as your own, we have windows, instead of "transparent-but-solid wall portals." Same goes for firebird. Besides, it also helps that they're different products. You can legally claim it as infringement if they name their product the same (or similar) to yours *if* it's the same (or similar) product. But, in this case, they aren't the same (nor similar). Nobody will confuse the two. They can call it firebird if they want to.
Their may be a grammatical error, misspeling, or evn a typo in this post.
In keeping with the Fiery Bird Motif of Firebird and Phoenix (a mythical bird that bursts into flame and is reborn)...
May I suggest that they change the name to "HotWings" to avoid futher disputes. Has a nice ring to it, eh?
I think it's really telling how healthy a community is when all they manage to do is spend time and energy flaming and mailbombing one another regarding a project's name. Couldn't they be coding instead?
Staying in the Mythical Birds and flame categories, how about a new name that doesn't step on toes, opensource or otherwise,
i ca lBirds/BennuMC.html
I propose:
Bennu - Heron-like Phoenix of Egyptian mythology. It arose from the flames of Heliopolis and was worshipped as the soul of Orisis incarnate.
http://members.tripod.com/~Ertosi/Folklore/Myth
The problem is not Phoenix bios, it's the Phoenix Technologies _BROWSER_ for embedded systems. Hence they are similar and could be confusing.
The same is not true of the Firebird SQL software. They are in differant spaces and in my opinion are not likely to be confused. The IBPhoenix guy also handled the situation poorly and doesn't merit a response.
First, minor correction they are chainging it FROM Phoenix (to Firebird) not TO Phoenix.
Now, the real thing is that people need to stop getting to damn defensive over names. The browser Phoenix had a legitimate beef, I mean you have two browsers of the same name. That is really confusing. However the SQL Firebird people need to sit down and shut up.
Firebird is NOT an orignal name by any strech of the imagination. I can easily name one Firebird that predates both of them: the Pontiac Firebird (a car). When you pick a popular name, you need to be prepared for other people to use it as well. Also, if you aren't the first to use it, you certianly have no right ot bitch when someone else picks it up as well.
Like I said, the Phoenix browser had a legit complaint. Here you had two of the same kind of product named the same thing. I can gaurentee GMC would raise hell if Chrysler introduced the Dodge Firebird car. However they won't mind about either the database or browser, as they are clearly different products.
Hell, the same is true of Phoenix. In additon to being a mythical bird, it is also the name of the captial city of the state Arizona. I bet if you talk to most people and ask what they associate Phoenix with, it will be the mythical bird or the city, not the browser. It is not an orignal name and the city of Phoenix will not be screaming at the browser to change its name as most people can tell the difference.
Unless you have a truly orignal name you really can't whine about people in unrelated fields using it too. After all, you borrowed it from somewhere else. Even if you do think up an orignal name (which Firebird is not) you still can't really complain if someone with an unrelated product uses it. After all, what is the harm? No one will confuse the two since they are different.
However, so long as there are other, older Firebirds than the database, these people are just being whiny with no good reason.
Trying to trademark the name "Firebird" is like trying to trademark the word "Sky" or the word "Video". Some of these SQL guys seem to have way too much time on their hands and I think they should relax - as someone else as said, they /are/ getting free publicity... and it really isn't as if the browser folk were creating another database. Personally, I was quite enamoured with the name Phoenix.
Unfortunately, this sort of thing happens all the time in the business world. >_< The new thing, though, was the e-mail campaign - seems a tad childish because it needlessly makes it more difficult for the developers to keep up with other mail. The least they could've done was simply meet with eachother cordially.
----- Wtcher Dragon, UDIC
I'd pick the name "br" as my first choice. Self-explainatory, too.
Anyone who knows the recent history of how
Interbase became Firebird appreciates just how
wretched and bloody and ugly the final months
were before it became open source. There were
folks fighting tooth and nail to give this
incredible product a fighting chance, and I have
nothing but respect for what they have achieved.
If you spend a couple of hours really, seriously
researching what this product offers, you'll
not only wonder how Borland could mismanage it
as badly as they did, but also wonder why MySQL
and PostgreSQL get so much press without being
mentioned as an afterthought. If only a tenth
of the resources were placed into Firebird as
are placed into PostgreSQL, I seriously wonder
if PostgreSQL wouldn't be largely abandoned
within the next two years.
This is a story about a beat up and exhausted
small group of core supporters coming up with a
name, and then, a year and some months later,
just as they're really starting to get the code
base they inherited under control and figured
out, a much bigger and well known crew picks
that same name. It isn't that the Mozilla team
couldn't keep the Firebird name - it's that they
shouldn't. It isn't that anyone will confuse
a web browser with a RDBMS, it's that it's a
completely unnecessary risk that anyone could.
It's about essential respect in the open source
community. The Mozilla crew could win this
argument, partly based on sheer inertia, partly
based on beleaguered opponents mounting an
ineffectual fight, and partly based on the
relative resources.
But they shouldn't. And to anyone who spends any
time at all researching the issue, the Mozilla
group is clearly engaging in "friendly fire."
I deeply respect both of these projects. It's
time for both sides to raise the bar on what it
means to fight for a common cause.
Baudtender
I think they should personally name everything after dinosaurs to go along with the icon's motif.
Mozilla Allosaurs Mail
Mozilla Stegosaurus Web Browser
Mozilla Coelophysis Usenet client
If not, then maybe stick to the lizard theme (i.e. Gecko):
Mozilla Chameleon?
Mozilla Iguana?
Mozilla Salamander?
Etcetera.
Why not just call it Mozilla 2.0? Thats what is really is, the next major release of mozilla.
Just a thought.
Karma: The shiznight, mostly because I am the Drizzle.
Let's just call it "Browser" and "eMail". That's what everyone calls them anyway...
Example
"My browser just crashed."
or
"I can't check my email."
Karma: The shiznight, mostly because I am the Drizzle.
Mozilla's decision (if they decide to proceed) to use our project name (Firebird) will certainly cause a lot of confusion, certainly amongst our end users and more than likely amongst their users.
t s
.signature :-)
I would ask them to consider how they would feel if Microsoft decided to rename Powerpoint as Microsoft Mozilla - in their (mozilla's) legal teams opinion it would cause no confusion?
Yes, Ok we could have chosen better as well, Firebird is but our mistake is three years ago and we didn't have the financial means to get any legal advice (still don't really). It was a name chosen by a few enthusiasts, after checking round the web that it wasn't going to conflict with anyone. From the lack of complaints over the last three years, I guess we haven't stepped on anyones toes.
But with mozilla we will overlap, some examples of confusing areas:
1. I can see mozilla users ending up at firebird.sourceforge.net looking for information on mozilla-firebird.
2. I can see much confusion between news and list names : see
http://www.mozillazine.org/forums/index.php?c=4
vs:
http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php?op=lis
After a year of two of posts to these, that will seriously muck up google searches for "firebird" and "download" for instance, as well as firebird (and moz) getting user requests for browers/databases in both our general newslists.
3. I can see package confusion occuring on most linux distributions - install which firebird rpm?
4. Security releases for "Firebird" are likely to overlapping on searches by product name.
5. My (limited) exposure to legal issues, was that just being another software product is cause enough to create user confusion. So Im supprised at their legal advice (but am not a lawyer).
6. Web applications often include browsers and databases. Scripting languages often support both , so what will something like PHP with Firebird support mean. My feeling is after a year, noone will remember it was a database.
7. I don't want to spend the rest of my life explaining to people that Firebird (our project) is not a web browser.
So you've got to ask why cause all the confusion (most of which I fear will be suffered by our users and developers), when it can be simply fixed by Mozilla choosing another name that doesn't conflict with an existing project.
I find this especially strange when coming from one name clash, they decided to go into another, with all that "months of legal help" surely they can come up with their own unique name.
And yes I am involved with the firebird project and the firebirdsql foundation. Where a lot of people work very hard on a Firebird for zero dollars in return.
Regards
Mark O'Donohue
--
See you at the First European Firebird Conference in May in Fulda, Germany
http://www.firebird-conference.com
(since I've had a few pointy notes, that Im only doing all this for the publicity, [Im not personally I feel quite sick in the stomach about this whole episode] I thought I'd include my normal
Semi-generic names suffixed with "SQL" have already coexisted with other projects. For instance, there's a "MySQL", a "MyMP3", etc. So just call the database "FirebirdSQL" and the web browser "Mozilla Firebird". You don't see the maintainer of xstep going apedung on the other xstep, do you?
Will I retire or break 10K?
What about Stingray?
IMHExperience, everything named Stingray was cool, and Phoenix was definitely worthy of such a name. Firebird is a pretty weak allusion to Phoenix.
He painted a unicorn in outer space. I'm askin' ya, what's it breathin'?
Below is the email I sent, outlining three points:
Sig Nazi- "No Sig for you, come back 1 year."
How about Phallus? I don't think anyone else will fight for that project name.
I hope.
How exactly are we all expected to remember that Thunderbird is the browser component and Firebird is the e-mail client?
There's a little joke there for those "in the know", but it's really not a joke. The problem is that you *do* have to be "in the know". About a third of the people reading this post probably didn't realize there was supposed to *be* a joke there. I'll bet even a bunch of the "in the know" folks missed it. Didn't you?
That's because the names Firebird and Thunderbird are absolutely meaningless to most of us. There's no context. There's a reason the Firebird relational database is called FirebirdSQL most of the time, to help give it some context. Somebody on that team realized that Firebird all by itself wouldn't necessarily mean anything to anyone, until or unless it was built into a big name with tons of publicity.
If the Firebird/Thunderbird/Mozilla/Phoenix people actually want real humans to learn about and use their software, they really need to come up with some better, more relevant, more original names. Otherwise only the geek community is going to know what the hell we're talking about whenever we mention those products. There are still very few people who have even heard of Mozilla outside the geek realm. It shouldn't take a government study to realize that part of the problem is the cute, meaningless name. Every time I mention Mozilla I have to explain that it's a web browser. I shouldn't have to explain that it's a web browser, but only that it's a *good* web browser. Something about the name should already have told them, at least partially, that it was a web browser.
"Internet Explorer" may not be cute, but by gosh nobody is going to be confused about what a product with that name is supposed to do. I'm really kind of flabbergasted that the Mozilla community can't come up with something, after months of discussion, that's better than Firebird/Thunderbird. Two mythological names that tell me absolutely nothing about the software they refer to, and furthermore are so similar that it will be difficult even for us geeks to remember which part they refer to. "Now, does fire remind me more of the Internet, or of e-mail? Hmm..."
C'mon people. Surely the whole community can come up with something inbetween these useless "cute" names and the mundane dry clearness of the "explorer" and "navigator" names, and have something that's original, informative and catchy enough for non-geeks to use without feeling ridiculous. I mean, good God, OpenEmail and OpenBrowser would be better than what they've come up with.
Here's hoping the right people will read this, have the same thoughts and run with it...
if you'd like to see how sensible people handle this sort of thing, check out the two gentoo's:
http://www.obsession.se/gentoo/
http://www.gentoo.org/
looks like so many problems would be solved if people just had some better manners.
In fact, it's already been suggested: Most People Agree: Phallus is a Really Bad Name for a Browser 8-)
It's more complicated than that; the law you reference simply tells how to affix a copyright notice if you choose to.
Prior to the 1976 revision of U.S. copyright law, you would actually lose your copyright to a work if you published it without proper copyright notice being displayed.
After 1976, you automatically obtain copyright on your work as soon as it is fixed in a tangible format. You own the copyright whether you add the copyright notice or not. Including the copyright notice is still a good idea, however, because it makes it easier to establish that someone _knowingly_ violated your copyright; it can affect the amount of damages you receive.
All of this stuff is in the circulars which the U.S. Copyright office makes available on the web.
Judging by their whiny, pithy attitude, I hope usage of their product (no matter how good it may be) drops even further. From the FirebirdSQL main page:
Our marks are not there for the taking and our advice is that the law is on our side: we have nearly three years of widespread international use of our mark.
What incredible arrogance to claim ownership of the word "Firebird" implied by the statement "Our marks are not there for the taking." Give me a break. That word wasn't theirs to begin with.
Plus, while they don't come right out and say that they'd threaten legal action, they're certainly hinting at it by claiming they believe the law is on their side. Of course, that's a bullshit scare tactic at best, and a weak one at that.
This is childish whining in every sense.
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon? :P)
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't.
This could also be just a smart move by the FirebirdSQL team.
Well, that depends... I for one have no intention of using a program where the developers and supporters resort to spamming and flooding other projects with derogatory comments. It shows a great level of immaturity. Therefore, I have no interest in using FirebirdSQL. I'd never heard of it before, but the only things I've heard about it so far are that the developers and supporters are basically jerks, flooding places with messages as opposed to openning up a positive, constructive dialog to resolve the differences.
IMHO, they've shot themselves in the foot.
neurostarAl Qaeda has ninjas!
Firebird SQL gets more visibility, Mozilla clears up any potential confusion (?). They both get to keep their project names.
Why does everything need to be such a big deal? Can anyone come up with a good idea why this won't work?
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
The Firebird project (at sourceforge) was not created by IBP, in fact I created it, it's hard to call it owned by anyone since it's a fairly loose association of people who are working on the code, including some from IBP. From several discussions evolved the usage of FirebirdSQL for some of the web and packaging.
In the last year the nonprofit association FirebirdSQL Foundation was created, (through about 12 founding members) to direct donated and membership funds, and probably a holding place for "firebird community property". Possibly, if there was to be an owner of the FirebirdSQL (or Firebird?) brand that is likely to be where we would like to see it directed (although at this stage IBP would be fine too).
My small experience with "brands" also gave me the understanding that both being in the software business was close enough to "create confusion" in a brand, so I was very supprised to find Moz claiming fb as thier own.
Our lack of prior claim to Firebird or FirebirdSQL (other than through usage) is due to the fact we are your average opensource project, not cashed up , and full of coders not lawyers.
Currently we (all fb people) are still stunned, by Moz's actions to use the firebird name, of which we had no prior knowledge or warning. Our first meeting with big brother opensource, from a smaller project, has not been a pleasant one.
Unfortunately, due to their actions we will obviously need to now spend effort in carefully review our own legal situation, and the effect that Moz firebird(tm) will have on our usage of Firebird and FirebirdSQL. Things that as with most opensource projects, will need to be done by donated work, and volunteer time, we were hoping to skimp on, and rely on general good will. So any advice appreciated :-).
IBPhoenix was named as a twist on the InterBase, word. I'll let Ann fill you in on that when she replies to you.
But a sobering thought to finish on. Our name was just the top one on the list, apparently we only got 5% or 37 votes. So if your name is on this list you were X votes away from getting the same treatment.
Mark
We just need to give the browser a symbol from some obscure font, and start referring to is as "The Browser formally known as Phoenix"
Lest the point be missed here:
Firebird (the database project) was using the name prior to the use of the name by Mozilla. Because of prior use, the Firebird database project has certain legally enforceable trademark rights to the name "Firebird" even if they did not register the trademark and are not using the (tm) mark. For example, if someone else started using the name "Firebird" for a database-related product, they would almost certainly be infringing on the Firebird project's trademark.
The Mozilla project may or may not be infringing on the database project's trademark. The crucial legal question is whether web browsers and database products are sufficiently similar types of products that a reasonable layperson might be confused into thinking that there is a connection between the two.
This is one of those questions where the answer is not clear-cut and where I wouldn't want to bet a lot of money on a court ruling in either direction. Just to give one example of the complexity of the laws when it comes to this kind of interpretation, consider this. When a company with no connection with Kodak-Eastman marketed "Kodak" brand cigarette lighters, they were found to be in violation of Kodak-Eastman's trademark even though the products are of quite different types. In this case, it was because "Kodak" is an invented word; if the name had been "Imperial", the finding would have probably been different. The point is that there are a lot of things which the court has to take into consideration in a case of this type, and the outcome of litigation in this case regarding the name "Firebird" would not be certain.
Am I missing something, or is everybody failing to see the forest with all the trees in the way?
The issue appears to be what to call the stand-alone Mozilla browser. Why not call it simply...
MOZILLA BROWSER?
It's very clear what the product is, conflicts with nobody, and ends all this wasteful bickering. The solution is so frikking simple though that I MUST be missing something.
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
You don't need to register trademarks, you just need to engage in trade using the mark. If the Firebird SQL folks haven't engaged in (interstate) commerce (since they are free software, maybe they haven't...), and haven't registered the mark, then it's possible they don't have any legal claim to the name at all.
However, you do need to defend a trademark (or else it can lose protection by becoming a generic term, like "kleenex"). To do this, they'd need to convince a court that there is likelihood for confusion among relevant consumers (are there any?) -- that a consumer might believe that the Firebird browser and the Firebird SQL engine come from the same place, or are somehow associated. Since they are both pieces of computer software, it's possible that a court would find them confusingly similar. (There is an actual list of types of trade for which you can register a trademark. I think you can get this from the PTO online. It's unlikely that "web browser" and "database" are on there!)
First it was Mozilla. Then it was Netscape. Then it was Navigator.
Then it was Communicator, which contained Navigator and was produced
by Netscape. Then it was Mozilla again. Then it was SeaMonkey.
Then it was Mozilla again. Then they decided to split it up into
Phoenix, Minotaur, and so forth. Then they renamed them to Firebird,
Thunderbird, and who knows what. Now the name Firebird is in
dispute... *ENOUGH*. No more name changes. Just call it "the
Mozilla.org browser", "the Mozilla.org mailreader", and so on, and
that'll be fine.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
Sig Nazi- "No Sig for you, come back 1 year."