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Firebird Name Debate Enters a New Stage
An anonymous reader writes "As many readers will know, mozilla.org was asked to change the name for their standalone browser, Phoenix as another browser had the same name. After months of discussion, the new name was announced as Mozilla Firebird. Despite the new name being approved by AOL Legal, supporters of the FirebirdSQL database were quick to object (though the name is also used by many other people). A coincidentally named supporter of FirebirdSQL, IBPhoenix, put up a slightly immature request for their readers to participate in mass posting campaign targetting mozilla.org developers' email accounts, newsgroups and even forums at independent sites such as MozillaZine and Slashdot. FirebirdSQL's official site later reiterated this message. However, IBPhoenix have now declared this shock-and-awe stage of their campaign over, heralding it a success. Their second stage calls for a more focussed email protest at just two of mozilla.org's members: Mitchell Baker (mozilla.org's leader) and Asa Dotzler (announcer of the name change). In addition, they ask their readers to move away from 'derogatory messages' and to show more 'courtesy'. Unsurprisingly, the beleaguered admins of affected sites such as MozillaZine have welcomed this change of direction. This is getting very interesting!"
Personally I don't like the new name at all. The whole Firebird/Thunderbird reminds me too much of a muscle cars. Come on they could have come up with something better than that.
This is just a big mess isn't it?
What post? The one you're carrying inside your rusty innards!
how bout Daawtrtdfw? Google turns up nothing, so I'm sure its not taken.
:)
smile, you'll live longer.
This shows how hostile some members of the OSS crowd can be over something so simple as a name.
This is the same crowd that gets excited when corporations try to take domain names from people who have had them for years. Using this same logic, shouldn't Mozilla switch their name since FirebirdSQL used it first? Prior art and all...
This kind of petty (it's just a name), inmature (flooding people's e-mail), public arguing is one of the reasons Linux isn't getting the acceptance it should.
PONTIAC !
Yet Socrates himself is particularly missed.
A lovely little thinker but a bugger when he's pissed.
I think that's a well-known Welsh browser, actually.
:)
Are you sure you weren't searching English-only?
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
If it were my choice, the childish email campaign would just make me more determined to keep the firebird name. Sending offensive messages to people who have nothing to do with the name change is no way to get things done. Maybe AOL can send it's lawyers after IBPhoenix for DoSing them. They can easily show damages in lost developer time deleting the messages and extra load on their mail server.
Jason
ProfQuotes
I do not think that the Moz team should use Phoenix. Even though it probably passses a legal litmus test, as they are very different products, that doesn't mean they should continue to use it.
I think it would be nice to show some respect to another open source project which precedes yours. I am sure that if the database guys called their product MozillaDatabase, the Mozilla team wouldn't be very happy, and I am sure there would be an outcry on Slashdot. Or better yet, how about Microsoft changes one of their product to the name Phoenix. How about instead of MSN Messenger they call it MSN Firebird? Would everyone here tell the Firebird/Moz team to "quit crying"?
I guess the summary is, just play nice with others and change the name out of courtesy for others.
Go Calculate Something
I'm still wondering why they wanted to change the name in the first place. What was wrong with Phoenix for a name?
455fe10422ca29c4933f95052b792ab2
Just call it "Open Source Web Browser" or "Open Browser".
--- I do not moderate.
Ok, so someone else in the Open Source community is using FireBird as part of its products name, big deal!!! C'mon guys get over this bickering like little children and grow up.
Thank heavens they made the call to try and put forth a much more professional boycott regime.
---
Mike
I'm going to kick the next person that I see with their karma rating in their sig.
I find it hard to believe that this is how adults react in such a situation?
Do they think that annoying some group of people will make it better? If I were the mozilla group I would have issues with giving in. Brute force does not mean its right.
A database and a browser are not the same. There would not be any confusion. There has to be a better way to handle this.
I think I would be less likely to use or work on the database project now... all because on how they reacted.
-I just work here... how am I supposed to know?
to completely ignore these idiots and definitely
keep the name to spite them now. It might not be
a bad idea to write some sort of redirection or
"pitty party" filter code that rewrites the
offending morons websites like Opera did with
MSN.
For every annoying gentoo user, are three even more annoying anti-gentoo crybabies. Take Yosh from #Gimp for example.
The use of the name in this case is non-confusing and the SQL people with their database have no basis for interfering with the Mozilla people and their specialty browser. The only reason Phoenix had trouble was that the BIOS maker also had actual browser functionality being marketed under the Phoenix name. This sameness does not apply in the case of FireBird. To conclude, someone should bitch-slap these children for running a spam campaign to annoy one group of open-source programmers to change their non-similar project's name. What would be appropriate at this stage is if the SQL folks would give up their name as contrition for their inappropriate steps.
"Despite the new name being approved by AOL Legal, supporters of the FirebirdSQL database were quick to object (though the name is also used by many other people). A coincidentally named supporter of FirebirdSQL, IBPhoenix, put up a slightly immature request for their readers to participate in mass posting campaign targetting mozilla.org developers' email accounts, newsgroups and even forums at independent sites such as MozillaZine and Slashdot. FirebirdSQL's official site later reiterated this message. However, IBPhoenix have now declared this shock-and-awe stage of their campaign over, heralding it a success. "
Sounds similiar to tactics we hear around here, when it's a company or person we don't agree with. How many times have we heard "everyone E-mail them" or we're going to "/." their site?
Sounds like bad karma coming home to roost.
This is the problem with using a word from any established language. No matter what you choose, it is very likely that someone, somewhere is already using it, and won't like you using it. This is even more likely to happen if you use a word that has some kind of "coolness" or "geek" factor. This of course is not to say I think the name Firebird is at all interesting. In fact, it just doesn't roll off the tongue well enough for me use it. As for me and my house, we shall use "phoenix" unless someone gives me good reason to do otherwise.
j.goforth
It's all foolish. If they called it FirebirdSQL, that would be one thing. But the word "firebird" is still free use. Just like how we can stil call windows windows, even though Microsoft would probably try to claim otherwise, given the chance. But, since you can't claim a word like that as your own, we have windows, instead of "transparent-but-solid wall portals." Same goes for firebird. Besides, it also helps that they're different products. You can legally claim it as infringement if they name their product the same (or similar) to yours *if* it's the same (or similar) product. But, in this case, they aren't the same (nor similar). Nobody will confuse the two. They can call it firebird if they want to.
Their may be a grammatical error, misspeling, or evn a typo in this post.
In keeping with the Fiery Bird Motif of Firebird and Phoenix (a mythical bird that bursts into flame and is reborn)...
May I suggest that they change the name to "HotWings" to avoid futher disputes. Has a nice ring to it, eh?
they should settle this in the ring. But they're nerds, so Battlefield 1942 should be a suitable ring. Allied vs. Axis => Mozilla vs IBPhoenix. Winner gets their way.
-Look lively. LOOK LIVELY!!! --Mr. Shmallow
The only names not yet trademarked
are Popplers and Zitzles. I suggest Popplers.
If not, then they should just STFU. Firebird is a common term, searching for "Firebird" isn't going to turn up their database without "SQL" attached, so who cares?
OTOH, I think "Firebird" and "Thunderbird" are pretty lame names, and I wish Moz would go back to the old ones.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
All parties interested are in on this one. Watch this logic: Step 1: Use other peoples names in your product Step 2: Complain, get Media Attention Step 3: Ask for Mass Emailing! Step 4: Sell those emails to spammers Step 5: PROFIT! Seriously, would I have heard about the other browser or the database? How many more names will "pop up"? Heh. WestyVW
I think it's really telling how healthy a community is when all they manage to do is spend time and energy flaming and mailbombing one another regarding a project's name. Couldn't they be coding instead?
Staying in the Mythical Birds and flame categories, how about a new name that doesn't step on toes, opensource or otherwise,
i ca lBirds/BennuMC.html
I propose:
Bennu - Heron-like Phoenix of Egyptian mythology. It arose from the flames of Heliopolis and was worshipped as the soul of Orisis incarnate.
http://members.tripod.com/~Ertosi/Folklore/Myth
How about Apache Navigator, PHP Explorer or plain simple MySQL?
:)
But I guess Phallus is still a popular favorite.
Good idea! And to solve this issue completely the FirebirdSQL guys could rename their project to:
"Database"
The problem is not Phoenix bios, it's the Phoenix Technologies _BROWSER_ for embedded systems. Hence they are similar and could be confusing.
The same is not true of the Firebird SQL software. They are in differant spaces and in my opinion are not likely to be confused. The IBPhoenix guy also handled the situation poorly and doesn't merit a response.
To which I say: who cares? As long as people (managers) will be confusing the things. (Like: "Firebird DB? Must be from the same guys that do Firebird Browser. I tried that, didn't like it. Hence - we are not using the DB." etc...).
Must be a slow day.
A choice of masters is not freedom
... that's Chief Lizard Wrangler to you, dude! :-)
Jokes aside, this situation is quite unfortunate and I hope it gets sorted out soon. Less fighting, more coding - can't we all just get along?
zWhat would an EWOULDBLOCK block, if an EWOULDBLOCK could block would? -- me
First, minor correction they are chainging it FROM Phoenix (to Firebird) not TO Phoenix.
Now, the real thing is that people need to stop getting to damn defensive over names. The browser Phoenix had a legitimate beef, I mean you have two browsers of the same name. That is really confusing. However the SQL Firebird people need to sit down and shut up.
Firebird is NOT an orignal name by any strech of the imagination. I can easily name one Firebird that predates both of them: the Pontiac Firebird (a car). When you pick a popular name, you need to be prepared for other people to use it as well. Also, if you aren't the first to use it, you certianly have no right ot bitch when someone else picks it up as well.
Like I said, the Phoenix browser had a legit complaint. Here you had two of the same kind of product named the same thing. I can gaurentee GMC would raise hell if Chrysler introduced the Dodge Firebird car. However they won't mind about either the database or browser, as they are clearly different products.
Hell, the same is true of Phoenix. In additon to being a mythical bird, it is also the name of the captial city of the state Arizona. I bet if you talk to most people and ask what they associate Phoenix with, it will be the mythical bird or the city, not the browser. It is not an orignal name and the city of Phoenix will not be screaming at the browser to change its name as most people can tell the difference.
Unless you have a truly orignal name you really can't whine about people in unrelated fields using it too. After all, you borrowed it from somewhere else. Even if you do think up an orignal name (which Firebird is not) you still can't really complain if someone with an unrelated product uses it. After all, what is the harm? No one will confuse the two since they are different.
However, so long as there are other, older Firebirds than the database, these people are just being whiny with no good reason.
One of the terms that often gets thrown around when discussing open source software is the "Open Source Community", and I suspect that one of the most important features of this community is the recognition that is accorded to developers, so project names take on a special significance in the OSS community, almost paralleling their significance in the world of commercial software. In the world of commercial software names are important for marketing purposes, while in the open source world, project names are important because of the cachet value that having your name associated with a project brings. So just as a commercial product named x would suffer adverse effects if a dominant company were to name their product x, so does Firebird-the-database when the second-or-third most successful OSS project (behind the Linux kernel and maybe apache) decides to take the name Firebird-the-browser.
Having said that, this all seems pretty silly, and it occurs to me that mass mailing campaigns aren't the mature way to deal with this, even if egos are involved. If this were a commercial situation (if the lawyers weren't involved) a mutually beneficial solution would be negotiated between the grown-ups running the two projects. It seems to me that this is the best course of action in this case as well.
-----
posted while drunk-as-in-bourbon.
Trying to trademark the name "Firebird" is like trying to trademark the word "Sky" or the word "Video". Some of these SQL guys seem to have way too much time on their hands and I think they should relax - as someone else as said, they /are/ getting free publicity... and it really isn't as if the browser folk were creating another database. Personally, I was quite enamoured with the name Phoenix.
Unfortunately, this sort of thing happens all the time in the business world. >_< The new thing, though, was the e-mail campaign - seems a tad childish because it needlessly makes it more difficult for the developers to keep up with other mail. The least they could've done was simply meet with eachother cordially.
----- Wtcher Dragon, UDIC
I'd pick the name "br" as my first choice. Self-explainatory, too.
Maybe because it isn't the same browser? ^_~
----- Wtcher Dragon, UDIC
Anyone who knows the recent history of how
Interbase became Firebird appreciates just how
wretched and bloody and ugly the final months
were before it became open source. There were
folks fighting tooth and nail to give this
incredible product a fighting chance, and I have
nothing but respect for what they have achieved.
If you spend a couple of hours really, seriously
researching what this product offers, you'll
not only wonder how Borland could mismanage it
as badly as they did, but also wonder why MySQL
and PostgreSQL get so much press without being
mentioned as an afterthought. If only a tenth
of the resources were placed into Firebird as
are placed into PostgreSQL, I seriously wonder
if PostgreSQL wouldn't be largely abandoned
within the next two years.
This is a story about a beat up and exhausted
small group of core supporters coming up with a
name, and then, a year and some months later,
just as they're really starting to get the code
base they inherited under control and figured
out, a much bigger and well known crew picks
that same name. It isn't that the Mozilla team
couldn't keep the Firebird name - it's that they
shouldn't. It isn't that anyone will confuse
a web browser with a RDBMS, it's that it's a
completely unnecessary risk that anyone could.
It's about essential respect in the open source
community. The Mozilla crew could win this
argument, partly based on sheer inertia, partly
based on beleaguered opponents mounting an
ineffectual fight, and partly based on the
relative resources.
But they shouldn't. And to anyone who spends any
time at all researching the issue, the Mozilla
group is clearly engaging in "friendly fire."
I deeply respect both of these projects. It's
time for both sides to raise the bar on what it
means to fight for a common cause.
Baudtender
... because I think Firebird isn't a very good name for the browser. It's all very well having it as an in-joke but the wider world won't get that. I'd keep it as Phoenix if legally the position is tenable. The name was chosen in good faith, is a good name for the browser, and has now massive brand recognition. From the Phoenix thread, I liked "Browse" best, which was/is the name of the RiscOS web browser that is available only on the Acorn platform. Simple 'lite' name, which complements the browser.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what's the f*cking deal is.
Mozilla.org announced in the new roadmap that the whole Mozilla suite will be Using Phoenix/Firebird/... and Minotaur/Thunderbird/... as the base for future development.
Why doesn't Mozilla.org just rename Phoenix to Mozilla Browser NG and Minotaur to Mozilla Mail NG (NG = Next Generation) or something? That would IMHO stop confusion.
This is just plain silly. One of my favorite pieces of classical music is called "Firebird" by Igor Stravinsky. Maybe I should start campaigning against FirebirdSQL project to stop associating their product with that piece of music?
Both of the projects have picked a word that is used in many, many contexts. As long as you pick one short English word, things like this might happen, as we can see.
However if both of the projects wish to get an unique name in this area, perhaps they should take a look at projects like fvwm2 and udhcpd that do not suffer from this problem. If they were named frbdsql and frbdhttp, all these silly battles over common words would cease. :)
They do call it Mozilla. ...) are OTHER browsers, based on the same Gecko renderer, etc., but are not the same as the Mozilla browser.
Phoenix (and Chimera,
Nothing to see here; Move along.
One last breath of vitriol. Before any /.er here posts and attempts to point out what I must have missed, that Microsoft is different because Microsoft has blah, blah, blah, frickety, blah, let me just say whatever. I'm aware the Microsoft is evil, banal, and corporate.
But my sympathy for the underdog disappears the moment it feels comfortable enough to start humping the legs of everyone else in the house, just because it's got big teeth now, and it's such a gooooood dog after all.
Smack it with a newspaper.
but if the FireBird SQL Project had a product, with all the international use, why havent i (or any of the guys i happen to work with) heard of this product?? After that immature posting that the article mentioned, i would not change my name, we all know AOL is just as powerful as Microsoft so why dont they just go and kick some open source ass..
---
If they did that they might get sued by Lindows.
I think they should personally name everything after dinosaurs to go along with the icon's motif.
Mozilla Allosaurs Mail
Mozilla Stegosaurus Web Browser
Mozilla Coelophysis Usenet client
If not, then maybe stick to the lizard theme (i.e. Gecko):
Mozilla Chameleon?
Mozilla Iguana?
Mozilla Salamander?
Etcetera.
you totally miss the point what phoenix is, it's not just some internal codename for future mozilla release, instead it's a stripped down mozilla browser (basically) that's a seperate program, and will be so.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Pontiac could jump in and get a piece, too...
Perhaps a Phoenix will rise from the ashes, and file a class-action suit for creating a stigma involving it's race?
Or maybe Thunderbird could get involved (you know, that really cheap wine that gets you bent). They sound alike, and after all, Windows... Lindows...
Only in America, folks...
No, Beowulf clusters can't imagine in Soviet Russia.
Karma be damned, this AC has a point. This is petty squabbling between open source programs. A clear example of ego's intruding into the scene. The parties involved need to grow up I think and learn to behave like adults. From what I've heard, Mozilla changed the name knowing FULL WELL there was another piece of software with the name. Why not rename it to "Fire Lizard" or something? It's more apt given the logo, and doesn't read on anyones toes. (Cue 10 people posting links to the Fire Lizard homepage that I've never seen...)
I love Mozilla, but this whole thing to me sounds a lot like an 800 pound gorilla trying to stomp on a mouse.
I'm sure Godzilla has been just itching to get a piece of the Mozilla team (in the courtroom, of course).
I hear that his lawyers can spit fire.
No, Beowulf clusters can't imagine in Soviet Russia.
Now... in this situation, I can't help but think that's a bad thing for them.
It's like getting the attention of the Mafia by beating the crap out of a few of their guys...
People will pass up steak once a week, for crap every day.
Why not just call it Mozilla 2.0? Thats what is really is, the next major release of mozilla.
Just a thought.
Karma: The shiznight, mostly because I am the Drizzle.
I dunno probably a stupid idea but you have to look for the postives in a situation like this. Both the browser and the database are getting publicity.
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything" -- Josef Stalin
The analogy doesn't cut over too well. Observe:
"We've publically attacked, insulted and annoyed them for the first couple days. Now let's stop and ask to kindly discuss the issue."
"We've bombed the shit out of them for a couple days, now let's stop and kindly ask them to give up power."
Let's just call it "Browser" and "eMail". That's what everyone calls them anyway...
Example
"My browser just crashed."
or
"I can't check my email."
Karma: The shiznight, mostly because I am the Drizzle.
Mozilla's decision (if they decide to proceed) to use our project name (Firebird) will certainly cause a lot of confusion, certainly amongst our end users and more than likely amongst their users.
t s
.signature :-)
I would ask them to consider how they would feel if Microsoft decided to rename Powerpoint as Microsoft Mozilla - in their (mozilla's) legal teams opinion it would cause no confusion?
Yes, Ok we could have chosen better as well, Firebird is but our mistake is three years ago and we didn't have the financial means to get any legal advice (still don't really). It was a name chosen by a few enthusiasts, after checking round the web that it wasn't going to conflict with anyone. From the lack of complaints over the last three years, I guess we haven't stepped on anyones toes.
But with mozilla we will overlap, some examples of confusing areas:
1. I can see mozilla users ending up at firebird.sourceforge.net looking for information on mozilla-firebird.
2. I can see much confusion between news and list names : see
http://www.mozillazine.org/forums/index.php?c=4
vs:
http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php?op=lis
After a year of two of posts to these, that will seriously muck up google searches for "firebird" and "download" for instance, as well as firebird (and moz) getting user requests for browers/databases in both our general newslists.
3. I can see package confusion occuring on most linux distributions - install which firebird rpm?
4. Security releases for "Firebird" are likely to overlapping on searches by product name.
5. My (limited) exposure to legal issues, was that just being another software product is cause enough to create user confusion. So Im supprised at their legal advice (but am not a lawyer).
6. Web applications often include browsers and databases. Scripting languages often support both , so what will something like PHP with Firebird support mean. My feeling is after a year, noone will remember it was a database.
7. I don't want to spend the rest of my life explaining to people that Firebird (our project) is not a web browser.
So you've got to ask why cause all the confusion (most of which I fear will be suffered by our users and developers), when it can be simply fixed by Mozilla choosing another name that doesn't conflict with an existing project.
I find this especially strange when coming from one name clash, they decided to go into another, with all that "months of legal help" surely they can come up with their own unique name.
And yes I am involved with the firebird project and the firebirdsql foundation. Where a lot of people work very hard on a Firebird for zero dollars in return.
Regards
Mark O'Donohue
--
See you at the First European Firebird Conference in May in Fulda, Germany
http://www.firebird-conference.com
(since I've had a few pointy notes, that Im only doing all this for the publicity, [Im not personally I feel quite sick in the stomach about this whole episode] I thought I'd include my normal
Semi-generic names suffixed with "SQL" have already coexisted with other projects. For instance, there's a "MySQL", a "MyMP3", etc. So just call the database "FirebirdSQL" and the web browser "Mozilla Firebird". You don't see the maintainer of xstep going apedung on the other xstep, do you?
Will I retire or break 10K?
Although I agree that the database people are being way to whiny, I would have thought that after all the problems with Phoenix, the Moz team could have come up with something that returns zero results on google. My suggestion is lizzardlite. Or tinymoz. Or somethning. I realize that there aren't very many people who a) would use mozilla or it's variants b) have heard of firebird the database and c) are likely to confuse them, but there may be people who aren't so computer savvy for whom it's a problem. I'd just think that after all the previous headaches, it would be worth choosing something which wouldn't cause namespace collisions.
If you call it Mozilla Firebird, there's should be no dispute...which is why AOL legal approved it, I'll betcha. If you call it just "Firebird" then of course, that would be stupid. But they didn't. They named it Mozilla Firebird. Is this really that complex? If Konami came out with a game called Apache, should they be sued by the people who make the Web server software?
Why not pay some consulting group millions of dollars to come up with one one of those new fangled names that isn't quite a name or even word? You know, like Accenture, Altria, and all the rest. It would be just one more step towards making OSS just like the corporate giants.
IAAL
No, you miss the point entirely.
Phoenix (now firebird) is the name of the browser in the mozilla suite.
If you are going to claim others are missing the point ensure you know what it is yourself.
Bush and Blair ate my sig!
Nobody can claim rights to "The." It's a freakin article! Except maybe "The The" or something. Either way, when you talk about it you'd be talking about "The Browser". Which it really is the only REAL browser, no? :)
I wish Moz people were more innovative in their
naming. I mean Konqueror is distinct why can't
Mozilla have something as good. How bout
Mozilla Surfage.
Mozilla's current suite is SeaMonkey. If there was another OSS project called SeaMonkey, there would be no confusion as outside the Mozilla development community, you never hear the word Seamonkey in relation to Mozilla.
Once the suite is split, it'll still be referred to as Mozilla and Mozilla Mail by Joe Bloggs.
But even if you disagree and think there would have been confusion about the name "SeaMonkey", it'll be free now so I'm sure we'll get tons of projects flocking to such a cool name...
Struggling to find a day everyone can make? WhenShallWe.com
ok, so someone says "Firbird crashed"
which one was it?
Advanced users are users too!
Your post made me laugh :-)
I seriously think new projects should actually make up words, it really helps when searching the web if the name is unique.
Bush and Blair ate my sig!
DoSing Open Source is not fun * "
You are aware that Firebird is an Open Source project too, are you not?
One that has been around for a few years...
It's the result of Borland opening it's InterBase code. (And is not related to Borland, since they pretty much opened the code, then abandoned the community)
Advanced users are users too!
Have Mozilla change the name to Bat Guano or Komodo or some shit...
Doesn't anybody have anything better to do than argue over names for totally dissimilar products?
Morons...
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
Of course, you could have found it yourself with minimal effort - look at the first line of the Firebird/Phoenix webpage which says: "Mozilla's Firebird browser is a redesign of the Mozilla browser component, similar to Galeon, K-Meleon and Camino, but written using the XUL user interface language and designed to be cross-platform."
Note the word re-design.
He said its a "stripped down version of the mozilla browser" which is not true, it is (or shortly will be) THE mozilla browser.
I think the page you link to hasn't quite been updated to be consistent with the recently published roadmap.
Bush and Blair ate my sig!
I find this very funny: quoted from the firebirdsql letter on MozillaZine, "A browser is very much like a database". Wow, that's definitely what I was thinking too. Come to think of it, a database is also a lot like a car. They have been infringing on the Pontiac FireBird all this time! Call the lawyers!
Who moved my sig?
I have a fealing that, now that this story is posted on Slashdot, that those who advocated the assault on anything Mozilla connected are going to find a new level of "shock and awe" when they also learn the meaning of the term "Slashdot effect".
FirebirdSQL needs to go, in the words of Clint Eastwood, piss up a rope.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
Mail/News: nix
That way we can keep calling it whatever we want.
Or perhaps: WAP (We Ain't PhoenixBios)
Or perhaps: IMAP (Is Mozilla A Pontiac?)
I also like Feenix, that might work nicely.
Oh what fun.
Credentials:
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4a) Gecko/20030411 Phoenix/0.5
Free software site slashdots....Slashdot. Has the world gone yvrut yspot?????
If you're happy and you know it read my blog
"1 Switch Mozilla's default browser component from the XPFE-based Navigator to the standalone Phoenix browser."
does not mean that phoenix/firebird will stop existing as what it is, stand alone browser.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
It's called FirebirdSQL. Who's going to confuse that with the web browser Firebird?
They even admit
However, most people that I have met that truely believe the law is on their side don't feel the need to seek out every possible forum to make their point on.
Their prospective gets better:
Ok. Good! The entire OSI community and the followers of ESR have been needing a slap in the face just as they slapped Free Software/RMS in the face.
Untouchable by distributors in favor of what replacement?? Maybe at some point distributors of GNU/Linux systems will favor konqueror (as Apple has) but that choice won't be made because they accidently didn't properly recognize the existence of FirebirdSQL. The reality is that it is FirdbirdSQL that is untouchable by distributors because of it's "OSI" license which falls short of CopyLeft ideals. Why distribute an OSI FreebirdSQL when there is Free Software MySQL and PostgreSQL to choose from? While FreebirdSQL is still under a MPL-like license, Mozilla is Free Software which makes it much more touchable by distributors of a GNU/Linux system.
The FirebirdSQL MPL-like IBPL-covered work did not even appear on the radar scope. To us Free Software users, the FBSQL project doesn't even exist. While the shock-and-awe campaign has made me aware of your existence, you still fail to provide anything worth tainting a perfectly good GNU system with. If you so badly need someone to acknowledge what you have accomplished under your crappy license then why don't you go cry to ESR.
But I am now convinced that Mozilla should avoid the name Firebird for any of their works. After all, anything that now uses that name might be mistaken for being covered by the IBPL instead of a true CopyLeft Free Software license.
How about Phallus? I don't think anyone else will fight for that project name.
I hope.
...after Quetlzcoatl, the (South American) Toltec firebird/thunderbird. Cool name, no conflicts.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
How exactly are we all expected to remember that Thunderbird is the browser component and Firebird is the e-mail client?
There's a little joke there for those "in the know", but it's really not a joke. The problem is that you *do* have to be "in the know". About a third of the people reading this post probably didn't realize there was supposed to *be* a joke there. I'll bet even a bunch of the "in the know" folks missed it. Didn't you?
That's because the names Firebird and Thunderbird are absolutely meaningless to most of us. There's no context. There's a reason the Firebird relational database is called FirebirdSQL most of the time, to help give it some context. Somebody on that team realized that Firebird all by itself wouldn't necessarily mean anything to anyone, until or unless it was built into a big name with tons of publicity.
If the Firebird/Thunderbird/Mozilla/Phoenix people actually want real humans to learn about and use their software, they really need to come up with some better, more relevant, more original names. Otherwise only the geek community is going to know what the hell we're talking about whenever we mention those products. There are still very few people who have even heard of Mozilla outside the geek realm. It shouldn't take a government study to realize that part of the problem is the cute, meaningless name. Every time I mention Mozilla I have to explain that it's a web browser. I shouldn't have to explain that it's a web browser, but only that it's a *good* web browser. Something about the name should already have told them, at least partially, that it was a web browser.
"Internet Explorer" may not be cute, but by gosh nobody is going to be confused about what a product with that name is supposed to do. I'm really kind of flabbergasted that the Mozilla community can't come up with something, after months of discussion, that's better than Firebird/Thunderbird. Two mythological names that tell me absolutely nothing about the software they refer to, and furthermore are so similar that it will be difficult even for us geeks to remember which part they refer to. "Now, does fire remind me more of the Internet, or of e-mail? Hmm..."
C'mon people. Surely the whole community can come up with something inbetween these useless "cute" names and the mundane dry clearness of the "explorer" and "navigator" names, and have something that's original, informative and catchy enough for non-geeks to use without feeling ridiculous. I mean, good God, OpenEmail and OpenBrowser would be better than what they've come up with.
Here's hoping the right people will read this, have the same thoughts and run with it...
'Phoenix' is like the 'Jane Smith' of the corporate world. Every company that ever went under, got bought out by the employees, and 'rose from the ashes' got names phoenix. Someone challenges you for using 'phoenix' as a name, and you cite 27,000 other people doing exactly the same thing, and tell them to take a hike. Beats being spammed to hell by a bunch of childish database wankers!
I find your ideas intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
I just looked up `phoenix' at thesaurus.com and it returns `phoenix` as synonyms for `ideal', `jewel', `monster', and `perfection' :-) It's a shame they can't use that name anymore.
For old timers (and emulator users I guess) - don't forget Firebird software from BT in the 80s - and they're also a dinosaur of a company :))
...and it's not like they don't try - remember their claims over hyperlink technology? here and here . (thanks google for a big 2 links)
(yes, I'm joking)
ermmm... don't take any notice of me... I'm too old...
Just change the damn name, and get to work on it already! Btw, anyone else find IBPhoenix acting qite immature?
-------
"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
-- George Orwell
How about 'Best-Damn-Browser-on-the-Planet'? It's very unlikely to have been used before, and it's appropriate suggestive to potential users.
First, we're talking about a browser and a database. They're hardly interchangeable.
I never really stopped to consider I was using "Mozilla" even though it's obviously derived from crappy Japanese movies, or "Phoenix" with its "born from the ashes" undertones; if they'd been called "Cuttlefish" and "Rob Schneider", I wouldn't have cared less.
Since it seems to have come along later, change the name of the damn browser and let's get on with life. If there's some mysterious proof that the browser came along before the database, change the name of the database.
If they'd been called "Lilo" and "Stitch", everyone would have been up in arms if/when Disney came along with a "cease and desist" note. They're not; it's all OSS, so let's all get along nicely like good anarchists should.
From what I've heard, Mozilla changed the name knowing FULL WELL there was another piece of software with the name.
I'm not saying this isn't true, but I would like to know if it is. Can you give any evidence?
if you'd like to see how sensible people handle this sort of thing, check out the two gentoo's:
http://www.obsession.se/gentoo/
http://www.gentoo.org/
looks like so many problems would be solved if people just had some better manners.
It's debatable whether Phoenix-the-BIOS-vendor really had a good justification for requesting the name change in the first place. But, OK, so call it Butthead Bios Vendor (BBV).
"Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
In fact, it's already been suggested: Most People Agree: Phallus is a Really Bad Name for a Browser 8-)
Judging by their whiny, pithy attitude, I hope usage of their product (no matter how good it may be) drops even further. From the FirebirdSQL main page:
Our marks are not there for the taking and our advice is that the law is on our side: we have nearly three years of widespread international use of our mark.
What incredible arrogance to claim ownership of the word "Firebird" implied by the statement "Our marks are not there for the taking." Give me a break. That word wasn't theirs to begin with.
Plus, while they don't come right out and say that they'd threaten legal action, they're certainly hinting at it by claiming they believe the law is on their side. Of course, that's a bullshit scare tactic at best, and a weak one at that.
This is childish whining in every sense.
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon? :P)
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't.
I would have modded that post as Insightful rather than Funny. I think "Browse" or "Browser" is a really good name. Look at Microsoft: Internet Explorer. Simple, says what it does, and close enough to generic to give it a chance of becoming a household name.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
Okay fellow programmers:
Here is a full featured robust SQL database that has been around for many years, has a very lean footprint, runs on all kinds of OS'es, requires almost zero administration, and is free.
Support on the users groups is top notch.
As far as the FirebirdSQL people launching an attack - Give them a break. They have really put their hearts into getting this project rolling after Borlands *interesting* management of it.
If any project deserves the name Phoenix and/or firebird, it would be this one, because they have really risen from the ashes, and done so many times.
If you got a $100 bill, put your hands up...
The SQL database people should rename their database AOL.
Seriously, though, I came up with the name "Mozuki" for a hypothetical cut-down version of Mozilla shortly after the Mozilla project was launched. (I suspect you'll find mention of it on the mailing list archives.) As far as I know, the name is unused and available. C'mon, guys, you know it makes sense.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
It's disgusting that some Mozilla fans cannot take any critisisms of the project, and that they can't accept the fact that it was simply rude to choose someone else's name like that.
It will be less painful to pick another name now while it's hot, rather than ignore the critics for eternity.
This could also be just a smart move by the FirebirdSQL team.
Well, that depends... I for one have no intention of using a program where the developers and supporters resort to spamming and flooding other projects with derogatory comments. It shows a great level of immaturity. Therefore, I have no interest in using FirebirdSQL. I'd never heard of it before, but the only things I've heard about it so far are that the developers and supporters are basically jerks, flooding places with messages as opposed to openning up a positive, constructive dialog to resolve the differences.
IMHO, they've shot themselves in the foot.
neurostarI bet those guys on the team are glad that they incorporated Junk Mail Filtering in the latest releases of Mozilla.
;) )
(Now that I think about it, maybe that is why they added that feature....
Buford "Mad Dog" Tannen
Al Qaeda has ninjas!
The formal name of the browser should be (and probably is) Mozilla Firebird or even Mozilla Firebird Browser.
That makes a clear difference from a stand-alone Firebird. Of course, people will say Firebird for ease and comfort, but that's how we do with everything else already.
Who says Microsoft Internet Explorer and not just Internet Explorer or even Explorer? See.
Firebird SQL gets more visibility, Mozilla clears up any potential confusion (?). They both get to keep their project names.
Why does everything need to be such a big deal? Can anyone come up with a good idea why this won't work?
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Resorting to things like e-mail flooding is childish at best, and downright damaging (and hopefully illegal) at worst.
This is the 21st century and we're supposed to adults. There are better ways to deal with disagreeing viewpoints than "My server's got more bandwidth than yours, so nyeeeah!"
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
It isn't that the Mozilla team couldn't keep the Firebird name - it's that they shouldn't. It isn't that anyone will confuse a web browser with a RDBMS, it's that it's a completely unnecessary risk that anyone could.
What are you talking about; there is no risk of confusion, as you said yourself, which is exactly what makes this so stupid. There is, as another poster pointed out, little more chance of the two being confused as there is of confusion with the car. Anyone who does confuse them is too stupid to use a browser, much less a DMBS
It's about essential respect in the open source community.
I definitely agree: this is all about how the people behind this campaign have demonstrated a total lack of even basic respect for anyone else. Nasty emails and posts all over make them look like spoiled children, not people who should be taken seriously. I wouldn't be surprised if people are less likely to give this system any consideration, since most people would prefer software written by professionals to software written by children.
Go read about how Hyatt, who's isn't even involved with the project anymore, was mailbombed to the tune of hundreds of messages per day. Then come tell us about how these vandals have the moral high-ground.
I just went over to Firebird forums on mozilla. Well, there is one topic in the general Firebird forums regarding this issue, and it has a grand total of 43 posts, most of which are an argument between two (2) people about whether it would have been more polite to ask the firebirdSQL folks first.
So, while the firebirdSQL folk are unhappy on their site, the real impact of this seems limited from a practical stand point.
The more interesting point is that trademark law forces you to defend your trademark or lose it. However, you cannot claim a universal trademark, so it is okay to have a car and software named the same thing. Are two software products that do very different things but have the same name similar enough for this to be an issue that would lead to confusion?
why the internet community has trouble effecting any real change in the world! Like anyone would take us seriously! I sure as hell don't.
Sig
Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars
This article came out a little onesided in favor of mozilla (hail the company), but I hardly expect unbiased news reporting from the internet, or anyone for that matter.
All in all, I think it was a fairly bad decision on the part of the mozilla people. It's like they didn't bother to think about the fact that an already prominent OS project existed with the same name and the confusion that's going to cause.
This is just another problem that happens when you start using wacky codenames for your product instead of coming up with an original name that actually somehow relates to your product and defines what it does.
So IBPhoenix requesting that their userbase express their feelings to mozilla developers is immature. Yet slashdot advocating spamming spammers isn't? Grow up kiddies.
scott
You ever trip over something small in the dark? That's what happened to you. I don't think AOL or Mozilla or 90% of the IT industry knew you existed. By the sound of the yelp, I'd say that the Mozilla folks accidently stepped on IBPheonix's little "puppy".
I believe this belongs to British Telecom, who had a software label called Firebird many many many moons back (the only software I significantly remember being released by them was Elite on the post-Acorn 8-bit comptuers such as the ZX Spectrum and C-64). Obviously, that is dating back to mid-80s so I doubt they still have any claim to the Trademark, but still...
I bet that would stop anybody else from using it.
You probably bet wrong. Hey, Rummy went ahead with the expression even when the comparison to Sept 11 was freakishly obvious. Which event had more "shock and awe" to it -- 9/11, or a sustained cruise missile attack Donny R had been talking up for months beforehand?
Terrorism on the Bin Laden scale is ABOUT shock and awe. Apparently Rumsfeld's a little jealous of the effect...
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
Wouldn't Shock and Awe be a good name for a web browser and e-mail client?
Awe - Web Browser, it's got all those neat-o plug ins, right?
Shock - e-mail client - I know some of the spam I've recieved is rather shocking!
Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but copyright will always protect me.
--not call the thing:
Modzuki?
Mozilla = Godzilla (Big bad ass Japanese Monster)
Modzuki = Godzuki (Smaller Japanese Monster and maybe Godzilla's sun)
-CL
We just need to give the browser a symbol from some obscure font, and start referring to is as "The Browser formally known as Phoenix"
"The same is not true of the Firebird SQL software. They are in differant spaces and in my opinion are not likely to be confused."
You are forgetting the implied connection between the dB and browser. If one starts to suck it could harm the reputation of the other. It's not as simple as "are they the same thing? No? Then no one should confuse them."
Uh, they can't name it Phoenix so they name it after the dictionary definition of Phoenix? That's like renaming "Windows" to "Transparent Walls", or "Opera" to "Italian Musical Performance". They're trying too hard to keep the theme of "great bird that consumed itself in fire,then rose again from the ashes". Time to move on and find a new theme, fellas.
Flying is easy, just throw yourself at the ground and miss. -Douglas Adams
hey all this hubub about the name is just free publicity, and no publicity is bad publicity, maybe more ie ppl will check it out and get their eyes open to tabbed browsing and popup blocking(without shareware programs, trying to sell you something and selling your email addy)
Does anyone else find it as amusing as i do that FirebirdSQL uses the MPL (Mozilla Public License). Yeah i know that it is somewhat popular these days, but i think it is funny considering the circumstances.
Mozuki?
seeing as how it's a "smaller version" of Mozilla...
What is so interesting about gossiping about a bunch of purile weenies whining about names? I thought we were hackers, that we transcend all this foolishness. I could understand it if there's a serious flame fest going on over design and implementation---hell, I'd even understand "Emacs vs. VI" or "Mac vs. PC", but names? Not to mention the fact that the tactics used are nothing short of immature (I mean, mail bombing? Good God that's lame!). This is so unprofessional.
(Although, amusingly, it does remind me of a sci fi novel [I forget which, except that it wasn't very good]. In this novel, they had run out of Greco-Roman names for in-system objects [asteroids and stuff], so they started using names from other mythical sources, such as the Hindu.)
I'm proud of my Northern Tibetian Heritage
The mozilla.org team has decided on a new name for their browser component that will avoid name conflicts with other groups. The new name, announced with little fanfare, is "Mozilla". mozilla.org management promptly started an e-mail campaign to the mozilla.org developers, claiming that the "Mozilla" name was in use by mozilla.org way before mozilla.org selected "Mozilla" as a name, and that an alternate name should be chosen.
--Rob
"As well, some of the young rats are playful and like to jump on to the platform when an older rat is drinking, with the result that the water pours down on the drinker's head." -- Ratman's Notebooks (1968)
Towards the Singularity.
Targeting a large group of developers with an organized email attack seems almost perfect grounds for a law suite! (hint hint) Besides, I've never heard of the opposing project before, yet it doens't mean it doesn't have a large group of supporters... I suspect that it doesn't compare the the numbers of Mozilla users who might be equally motivated to fire up their email-spewing perl scripts. Heck, 5 minutes of my time to send 500,000 emails their way is worth the warm fuzy feeling it would bring for even mentioning an attack on Mozilla (thinking about it even). =)
It isn't a lie if you belive it.
Since phoenix/firebird is going to become the default mozilla browser, this is all a non-issue. Firebird is basically just going to be an internal codename -- pretty soon everyone will be calling it Mozilla, or Mozilla Browser.
That spam campaign is easily the bitchiest, most petulant single act of any open source project that hasn't yet burst under the weight of its own self-importance.
Christ. Get the fuck over yourselves. The 15 people who care about your database project aren't going to confuse it with a browser.
Nice things are nicer than nasty ones.
It will be very popular down here in The South. (=
Am I missing something, or is everybody failing to see the forest with all the trees in the way?
The issue appears to be what to call the stand-alone Mozilla browser. Why not call it simply...
MOZILLA BROWSER?
It's very clear what the product is, conflicts with nobody, and ends all this wasteful bickering. The solution is so frikking simple though that I MUST be missing something.
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
"The browser Phoenix had a legitimate beef, I mean you have two browsers of the same name. That is really confusing. However the SQL Firebird people need to sit down and shut up.
Firebird is NOT an orignal name by any strech of the imagination. I can easily name one Firebird that predates both of them: the Pontiac Firebird (a car). When you pick a popular name, you need to be prepared for other people to use it as well. Also, if you aren't the first to use it, you certianly have no right ot bitch when someone else picks it up as well."
Its about respect. Who cares if there is a car, a bird, and a tv set called Firebird? Those are NOT Opensoure projects. Here in the opensource world we are supposed to show respect for fellow opensource projects. Mozilla.org did not do that.
They were made aware several times that Firbird was the name of an Opensource project and that it was bad policy to take the name of a fellow Opensource project. They choose not to care. They also proved their guilt by not contacting the Firebird DB team prior to the announcement. What kind of opensource project doesn't contact another opensource project when what they are about to do will have a Major impact on it?
Mozilla is in the wrong here and the fact that Firebird is also a billion other things doesn't mean shit. The fact that its the name of a another Opensource project does.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
B. Because they didn't. Their database is called "Firebird", not "Phoenix". If you had any reading comprehension skills you would know that from reading the story.
Maybe they should name it the "Bitchin' Firebird Web Browser", download now and get a free set of fuzzy dice. Just what you need to cruise the net...
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
Mozilla Browser and Mozilla Mail should be candidates for the name of the software.
I agree. I don't think Mozilla did this to spite you. I had never heard of you until your childish email campaign.
fire lizard? why not just call it Red Dragon or something dragon related?
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
It's to hard to track and read various blogs, email reposts and the like during a flame war. I miss the good ole days of flaming in alt.fan.*
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
Edrychwch chi ar http://www.gwelywiwr.org/ a http://www.kyfieithu.co.uk/
You don't need to register trademarks, you just need to engage in trade using the mark. If the Firebird SQL folks haven't engaged in (interstate) commerce (since they are free software, maybe they haven't...), and haven't registered the mark, then it's possible they don't have any legal claim to the name at all.
However, you do need to defend a trademark (or else it can lose protection by becoming a generic term, like "kleenex"). To do this, they'd need to convince a court that there is likelihood for confusion among relevant consumers (are there any?) -- that a consumer might believe that the Firebird browser and the Firebird SQL engine come from the same place, or are somehow associated. Since they are both pieces of computer software, it's possible that a court would find them confusingly similar. (There is an actual list of types of trade for which you can register a trademark. I think you can get this from the PTO online. It's unlikely that "web browser" and "database" are on there!)
All hail the mighty dollar and the sleaziest as possible, yet legal way to get more if it.
I hate all sigs, even this one.
... that the Mozilla team probably never heard of them, just as many Slashdot readers haven't. They just assumed that this was a deliberate insult. This is the first time that *I* have heard of Firebird SQL and, given the type of people they seem to be based on their actions so far, I hope I never hear of them again.
As for the Mozilla team, if they want new code names they can always continue with their original Japanese monster theme, e.g. Modan, Mhidra, Moamera, Momothra ("please return the source code to us!"), and so on.
Or they might go the message board route, with names like Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, Offensive, Troll, and Flamebait.
--- Brian
It is extremely uncool of the Phoenix project to have create this mess. They need to back off and reverse their horrendous decision to rename their project to "Firebird". That name is taken. Period. "Our lawyers said it is OK" is just not accepatable.
Frankly, if Phoenix-Firebird does not reverse course, this is going to get very ugly. I would suspect that the fallout will severely damage both projects. The open source community needs to not allow this to happen. Phoenix-Firebird created this mess and ONLY they can get out of it. The open source community needs to pressure them to not continue down the road to conflict and discord.
Why not just call it 'BigRedLizard' and get it over with? I know I'd use BigRedLizard (and it's mail/news brother, BigMailLizard).
Prepare to be burninated!
have been the Firebirds since I think the 1960s. Therefore, we're going to have to ask IBPhoenix to change their product's name too. Damned confusing, an SQL engine and a basketball team you know.
Seriously. Who's going to accidentally end up downloading or think they're discussing a web browser when they're talking about SQL? And vice versa? Lighten the hell up already, IBPhoenix.
The discussion shouldn't be if mozilla can legally name it's subproject firebird.
I think it's pretty clear to everyone that using the same name will probably cause all kind of troubles. Think of url's, sourceforge projects, registry setting, package names, user confusion, directory names, explaining what you mean every time you talk about firebird etc. etc. etc.
The only party in this conflict to provide a solution to this is the mozilla crew. You can't reasonably expect the firebird crew to change their name every time someone wants to use it.
I saw the list of votes. Sphinx was the nr 2 with only 7 votes between them. Why not see if this name is without problems and use that, or do a revote? It is not like the mozilla crew loses anything by doing this. It seems the most practical and reasonable solution
"New Firebird is a browser. New Firebird is a database.
It's a browser. No, honey, it's a database.
It's a browser! It's a database!
It's a browser!! It's a database, you cow!!!
Hey hey hey, no need to fuss.
New Firebird is a browser _and_ a database. {big laughs}
New Firebird can be used to store data in a relational manner.
And just look at it render HTML!"
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
Am I the only one that prior to this incident has never heard of FireBirdSQL?
If on the one hand you have hordes of lawyers yelling "trademark infringement" and on the other hand you have mass e-mail campaigns and public outcry to force the hand of the offending party, I for one vote for the public outcry, not the hordes of lawyers.
MORTAR COMBAT!
I was thinking of writing some software and giving it the acronym "GD-CRAP". (what the letters means is a trade secret :) )
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
bennu isn't as recognizable;
they might as well make up a name for a similar effect.
(though i love ancient egyptian names, like mine for instance.)
i still like the minotaur name and its slogan "half man, half bull."
perhaps Argos and Minotaur would be a better solution
(Argos being the name of the ship sailed by Jason in his search for the Golden Fleece).
there are no OSS projects named argos, but there is an accounting software company with that name.
*zilla names seem to have been phased out. whatever happened to the Godzilla vs AOL battle?
assuming it wasn't lost, i would much prefer a suggeston posted to mozillazine
to use Firezilla and Thunderzilla,
which would pave the way for other forces of nature such as
smokezilla, icezilla, quakezilla, and tidezilla.
Use my userscript to add story images to Slashdot. There's no going back.
How about...
:)
Mozilla!
I bet noone has thought of *that*!
Seriously, mozilla has a name, why not keep it? Mozilla as we know it will cease to exist anyway (split GRE, mailnews, browser), so why not call the browser simply mozilla?
Gustavo J.A.M. Carneiro
I don't think it is in use by anyone.
If Phonix continues on this path, I hope that someone will fork their project, just to change the name.
I for one, would use the forked version.
From one AC:
You ever trip over something small in the dark? That's what happened to you. I don't think AOL or Mozilla or 90% of the IT industry knew you existed. By the sound of the yelp, I'd say that the Mozilla folks accidently stepped on IBPheonix's little "puppy".
We have a winner for best explanation of how this all happened.
And from another AC:
I don't think Mozilla did this to spite you. I had never heard of you until your childish email campaign.
And another winner for best description of FirebirdBrandSQL's response.
Sorry, no mod points, but both of these ACs needed to be heard.
FreeSpeech.org
Well, more to the point, they should call it Internet Explorer. Didn't Microsoft go to court and prove that "Internet Explorer" is a generic term and thus not subject to trademarking?
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
Yeah, and they did a really exhaustive search...
I put the word "Firebird" into google.
Top "hit" was:
"Firebird - Relational Database for the New Millennium".
There was also a paid ad for the "Firebird SQL Conference".
Hard to find, huh?
Something else I've noticed is that people's reactions on this subject are mostly based on their feelings for the product -- had a commercial company decided to launch the next generation of IE or whatever under the banned of Firebird, I guarentee you there'd be much screaming from the open source fans about how evil said company was to do that.
But I guess those that use Phoenix feel that it doesn't matter who had the name first...
-G-
You ever trip over something small in the dark? That's what happened to you. I don't think AOL or Mozilla or 90% of the IT industry knew you existed. By the sound of the yelp, I'd say that the Mozilla folks accidently stepped on IBPheonix's little "puppy".
= firebird
How hard could that be to find out?
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q
Look at the first result. The FIRST!!!
If mozilla will use firebird, these guys will be quickly pushed back to result 10-1000, so nobody say that this won't hurt them.
IOW, AOL/the mozilla guys fucked up.
Why should I care about some SQL product that no one has heard of? Its not like the mozilla team named it IBM or Apple or Internet Explorer or something. The only confusion will be the SQL people who can't understand the difference.
We need something that will satisfy both camps, something meaningfull AND cute.
How about WebLizard and MailLizard.
(or "Web Lizard" and "Mail Lizard" with a space.)
This is not a political statement. This is not legal advice. It's a frick'n Slasdot post. However: I'm Running For
IBPhoenix representative Donald Humpsfeld spoke with reporters yesterday, informing the world that the United Softwares of America would not tolerate GNU nations creating and hiding weapons of mass destruction. Their preliminary plan was to "shock-and-awe," but several publications reported that witnesses to the plan-in-action were bored-and-stiff.
Mozilla's "42"... or Mozilla's "Tim"... I like either for the next edition of Phoenix...
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
they would have named it Explorer
First it was Mozilla. Then it was Netscape. Then it was Navigator.
Then it was Communicator, which contained Navigator and was produced
by Netscape. Then it was Mozilla again. Then it was SeaMonkey.
Then it was Mozilla again. Then they decided to split it up into
Phoenix, Minotaur, and so forth. Then they renamed them to Firebird,
Thunderbird, and who knows what. Now the name Firebird is in
dispute... *ENOUGH*. No more name changes. Just call it "the
Mozilla.org browser", "the Mozilla.org mailreader", and so on, and
that'll be fine.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
Disclaimer: I'm a developer actively using Firebird-The-Database-Engine. I use Mozilla-The-Browser.
.. uh... Express your opinions? If you don't like something, don't you try to get a group of like-minded people to go and express their opinions as well? I fail to see how what IBPhoenix did is any different than "mail your congressman" type of things that are here. Note, I haven't looked at the actual messages. If they were flames and immature post, that's a different story, but the simple request on IBPhoenix of "Go here and tell them what you think about Mozilla changing the name to Firebird" doesn't seem out of line at all to me.
OK, after reading throught he morass of crap that people have posted, it seems that people fall into a few different camps.
Camp 1 is "Screw FirebirdSQL, they're a bunch of nutbars." An offshoot of Camp 1 is "Screw FirebirdSQL, they're a bunch of children and don't merit a response."
Camp 2 is "Screw FirebirdSQL, they don't have trademark/copyright/a legal leg to stand on."
Camp 3 is "Screw Mozilla, they're a bunch of nutbars."
And Camp 4 is "Jesus Christ, everyone is a bunch of friggin immature morons."
Personally, I'm of the opinion that, while it doesn't seem there is a legal leg here, the Mozilla team should have done the polite thing, and not even named the new browser Firebird. Someone pointed out "What would happen if MS renamed Powerpoint to Microsoft Mozilla?" Everyone would decry MS as being an evil monopolist corporation.. Wait, that already happens. Anyways, everyone would be flaming Microsoft up one side and down the other. The only difference in this situation is that Microsoft would ignore all of the flame and move on, while the Mozilla people seem not to be.
How is this any different? You have a group of opensource developers (The FirebirdSQL people) who feel that they've been wronged (Legitimately, in my mind. And yes I realize it might be legal, that doesn't mean it's right).
I looked at the "slightly immature request" on the ibphoenix website, and you know what it amounted to? It is almost exactly what anyone around here posts when you say "Mail your congressman!" My God, no!!! Did you realize that you are being "slightly immature" when you "participate in mass posting campaigns" to your congressman? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a forum to
Another point is that Sourceforge already has a project named Firebird (The aforementioned FirebirdSQL). Curiously, Mozilla seems to appear on Sourceforge as well. Don't you think the Mozilla people might want to avoid problems on Sourceforge, if nowhere else? Generic names aside, Firebird is a registered project, and has been.
And, what will happen if (when?) AOL Legal decides to get a bug up its ass and sue FirebirdSQL for some name infringement? Will we say then "Tough, FirebirdSQL, you shouldn't have chosen a generic name" while forgetting that they had that name long before Mozilla Firebird?
This situation is making me sick. Mozilla has acted like a bunch of children, with their only defense being "Well, it's legal" while forgetting the question "Is it right?" No, it isn't right, and I think the Mozilla folks should be changing the name from Firebird to something that is at least unique (and non confusing, so we don't get Mozilla FyreByrd) on Sourceforge, if nowhere else.
If they like crappy GM cars so much, why not call it Camaro?
(This'd require the traditional mullet and wife-beater.)
BINGO, I can't say as the response was very professional but you are correct. I am sure the MOZ folks just gathered and took submissions till they found one that sounded cool. I am just as suer they did not intend to step on anyone toes, certainly not another OSS project from SourceForge. This is just overreaction and when the dust settles, firebirdSQL will have their name, and the Browser formerly named Pheonix will find something new, how about NEWT :)
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Where is the statement immature when all they are doing is stating their opinion which is quite viable (I personally would get pissed if I was looking for firebird database stuff and ended up with mozilla all over my google search...you say you could say -browser, but maybe I am searching for something database related to a browser). I see nothing immature about the following, please explain the immaturity in the statement below:
p r ticle=3 075
i bm .com,jaggernaut@netscape.com, hewitt@netscape.com,dean_tessman@hotmail.com,chani al@noos.fr,blakeross@telocity.com
and
Mozilla browser becomes Firebird
Today the Mozilla organization announced that the new name for their browser would be Firebird.
We at IBPhoenix think that having a browser and a database with the same name in the same space will confuse the market, especially as browsers and databases are often used in the same applications (thank you Lester Caine). What can you do if you too are unhappy about this decision?
First, let other people know. If you have a Firebird related website or newslist, explain the problem or point people to the IBPhoenix site.
Let the Mozilla forums know how you feel. They've already taken some heat in forums on their website. To join that fray, you must register. Check
http://www.mozillazine.org/forums/index.ph
and
http://www.mozillazine.org/talkback.html?a
for the discussion.
You might also send mail to the following people and groups:
Asa Dotzler - he made the announcement and has been defending the Mozilla intellectual property lawyers by saying that no one could confuse a database with a browser.
drivers@mozilla.org - drivers are the project managers of Mozilla, they keep the project stable and moving forward. They should know what effect their new name has on another open source project.
These people are the technical project leaders of Mozilla. They too should be aware that the possibility for confusion exists.
hyatt@mozilla.org,varga@netscape.com,mkaply@us.
For more information about the Mozilla organization, look at:
http://www.mozilla.org/about/stafflist.html
http://www.mozilla.org/about/roles.html.
Here are the staff email addresses.
Mitchell Baker,
Chris Blizzard,
Scott Collins,
Asa Dotzler,
Brendan Eich,
Dawn Endico,
David Hyatt,
Gervase Markham,
Myk Melez,
Daniel (Leaf) Nunes,
Seth Spitzer,
Peter Bojanic,
Frank Hecker,
Marcia Knous,
Dan Mosedale,
Mike Shaver.
I'd have called it a chuzwazzah...
The pigeon has long been recognized as a noble bird, a symbol of freedom and justice. And a flaming pigeon would just be that much better.
If Mozilla doesn't leap upon this idea, then I am going to go ahead with my original plan of starting the new FlamingPigeonSQL server.
Maybe they should change the name of Phoenix to Windows. :) Didn't Microsoft just lose a suiit based on the idea that Windows is a generic term?
Wish I could remember, but I've seen it in several places online. Possibly Metafilter?
1. Phoenix is not the name of the firebird database. It is just the name of a support website which advocates firebird, so why would they object to use of phoenix exactly?
2. And neither did linux trademark their name for a while until they were forced to by some idiot.
3. Yes, this will irritate me when I am looking for stuff related to one or the other.
How about Internet Navigator? It's nice, it says what it does and AOL already has the copyright to the Navigator name.
"Internet Explorer".
i.e. something to explore the internet. Duh. My six-year-old cousin can figure that one out.
As far as Microsoft Outlook goes, it is only partially an e-mail client. It's also a groupware application. It keeps your appointments, to-do list, and (coincidentally) e-mail. It keeps you on the "look out" for new stuff coming in (e-mail) and then notifies you about other things (a lookout in the traditional sense). So it may not be immediately obvious, but it could easily be inferred from virtually any sentence with context (except the ubiquious one on Slashdot, i.e. "Outlook sux0rz"). Now, consider Thunderbird. "I went to check my e-mail in Thunderbird." If I *didn't* know what Thunderbird meant, I would probably think they drove somewhere in their nice muscle car and got on a computer to check their e-mail. I don't know what I'd think if some said "Sent it to my firebird."
Naming at least 50% of the battle here, folks. Think of something original that implies contextual meaning.
Are open source developers really so unimaginative that they have to argue over two such mundane names?
it may be the name of an enemy in an old video game, but i doubt the company would mind the attention if anyone remembered where its from...
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
If i had mod points right now, I would mod you up insightful....
Moz::Phoenix/FireBird has a passphrase for a back door:
"FireBirdDB/IBPhoenix/InterBase developers are weenies"
tee heee
The Firebird DB team is beating around the bush on this one. The real reason they're going insane over Phoenix's namechange to Firebird is because they know they're going to lose the coveted #1 position in Google for the term "Firebird" very soon.
:)
As soon as the Phoenix browser is released with the new name, it'll be linked through slashdot and hundreds of other weblogs, Mozilla fansites and news agencies. Then BAM! Google does it's dance and Firebird DB's position drops to #2 (or worse) in the Google search results.
I'm sure something like this would make anyone jealous.
"I filter at +6, and have yet to miss out on an important comment." (#822545)
sorry.
So, just to compare "legitimacy", does anyone know the montly download statistics for the Firebird BBS, whose name the Firebird Database project so blithely adopted?
http://www.firebird.org.tw/
If I were somewhat cynical, I might observe that there is no honour among thieves. If I were more cynical, I might suspect that Firebird BBS was ignored because its development community speaks/writes Chinese.
I figure as long as Firebird Database is #1 on a google search then they should have nothing to cry about. Pontiac is #3.
Hence no confusion.
Nuff Said.
The only reason all cover-ups appear to fail is that you never hear about the ones that succeed.
Why not just name it Trans-Am then? They seem to like naming it after Pontiac cars for some reason. In case some of you forgot, there was a Pontiac car named the Phoenix in the late 1970's and early 1980's. A picture of one is here: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Pit/1215/phoeni x.htm
Call it: Flaming Chicken
Karma: Non-existant. Due mostly to the fact that you smell funny and nobody likes you.
The Remover of Obstacles. After defeating all the gods except Vishnu, who had attacked him for covering the moon, he gained immortality, became the mount of Vishnu on his travels and is regarded as the King of Birds. He's also familiar to a significant portion of the worlds current population (India, Indonesia, SE Asia, Buddhists in general...).
"Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999
Wasn't he a sailor?
If you get this, etc. etc.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
There's lovely!
d robwll llantysiliogogogoch.co.uk
m
Hey, check out:
http://www.llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrn
I mean, the boyos are having a bit of trouble getting it working, but according to this site:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/602246.st
its rather amusing.
I will always call it Mozilla. Not matter what fud they give about new components. This is not a super-internet-platform, it's just a browser. BTW, I really like the browser-news-mail integration in Mozilla....
--
I pity everyone reading this message
Let us examine the situation:
Welcome to Firebird SQL: Where do you want to go today?
why od they mess around like this?
" whatever"bird
the main packages is still called mozilla, and that is the name most people will use outside of development...
as for package naming, this would do the trick:
mozilla-firebird
mozilla-thunderbird
mozilla-
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
No? Well how about Firebird Web Design
Or how about Pontiac ? oh my mistake.
Still you can get a mortgage from Firebird , who incidentally have a database
Or a hosting solution from Firebird Networks
There was even a firebird joystick - so your point was?
FirebirdSQL may be top of the search results pile now, but they took that position from someone else too....
I hereby inform you that I have NOT been required to provide any decryption keys.
I read this as saying PostgreSQL was formerly Sapdb, which is entirely incorrect. It's hard to imagine what gave you that idea. They're two separate products.
www.postgresql.org
www.sapdb.org
Sapdb was formerly a commercial database, named Adabas.
Now before I get modded down, I be to remind whoever might read this that what I am saying is FACT. - bogaboga
Call it "Aohell Nutscrape".
I don't think the current owners would mind.
SQLFirebid is crying foul over a name, when it took the likeness of it's logo from the City of Phoenix(which is a very good and clean looking logo, IMO) and IBPhoenix. Can't any of these groups come up with something original? The Phoenix/Firebird name and look is a little over used, and way to ambiguous. Why not use the name "BurningBird" (Moderatly used name) or "FoulFire" (I don't think there is any products using this one) or even "ChickFilet" (oh, never mind)? They all mean the same thing, which has absolutely nothing to do with the product. Over all, I thinks this is a non-issue.
I find it funny and sad how FirebirdSQL is trying to bully, of all organizations, Mozilla/Netscape/AOL.
-- Kircle
Hmm, didn't Futurama name Popplers with dialogue identical to the one in the parent post? Sweet Zombie Jesus, it's an Alien Conspiracy!:)
Is this a sigs-optional kind of place? 'Cause I am totally down with that if you know what I mean.
Well, I probably should have been more clear. I should have used <sarcasm> tags. Sorry for the confusion.
Oh goody, an AC slashbot who thinks they're clever because they can use a word with more than two syllables and link to a definition of the term, just in case I'm so illiterate that I don't understand it. How terribly original.
I'd love to think this was intended to be a rhetorical question. I might have hoped for it to be so, but in case you hadn't noticed, we're actually in a thread discussing people who are committing this particular fuckwitticism.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
If you must pick the name of a car, at least pick something half decent, like "RX-7" or something. Firebird??? Bah.
It's not as if this sort of thing is new.
The makers of StarOffice showed similar disrespect when they called their presentation software Impress, conflicting with Chris Cox's presentation software package of the same name.
Nobody spammed Slashdot over this; there were no boycotts of StarOffice over it. And the situation remains, to this day.
Why does the FirebirdSQL group think they should expect better treatment now?
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
It's so obvious to me that they are wrong... The only right thing to do for mozilla.org is to assume their mistake and rename the browser. For god sake, they haven't even released a version with such a name. That month of research sounds like bullshit when you consider they didn't even go to to google to find out that the name was already taken but another free-software project, not a grocery, not a car, not a company name.
...a Google search turns up Firebird Software Ltd., Firebird Web Design, Financial Firebird, Gravis's Firebird joystick, Firebird Networks, the Firebird BBS, and the Firebird Jr. video editing package. (I stopped looking at that point.) Have the IBPhoenix people run spamming campaigns against them?
You think, hence this is your opinion. I see you're very unbiased as well.
I do believe that this mess will hurt both open-source projects. In fact, it already is. However, FirebirdSQL has a lot more to lose than Mozilla Firebird.
I am an open-source advocate. I do not favour one project over the other. However, I believe that, even if FirebirdSQL is morally correct, they are fighting an infinitely uphill battle.
Who has?
Publicity stunt or not, they have created a reputation. Not one I'd be proud of, personally, but YMMV.