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Cheap Audio Production

OneInEveryCrowd writes "Rolling Stone reports that four out of five new albums are now produced by a program called Pro Tools (or similar packages) that costs $495 for the home version or $15,000 for the pro version. The article describes a fairly amazing savings in time and effort compared to the older ways of producing an album. I realize that a talented producer can cost a lot of money and some bands drink a lot of beer, but why aren't the benefits of lower production costs being passed on to the consumer?"

54 of 616 comments (clear)

  1. The Consumer? by hsmyers · · Score: 3, Insightful

    To hell with the consumer, how about the artist?

    1. Re:The Consumer? by vmfedor · · Score: 2, Insightful
      It's funny that the word 'band' has all but been replaced with the word 'artist' lately. I hate what the word 'artist' means anymore. The Velvet Underground were artists, R. Kelly and Linkin Park are not.

      --

      I like my women how I like my sugar.. granulated.

  2. Why? Hmmm.... let me think by julesh · · Score: 5, Insightful

    why aren't the benefits of lower production costs being passed on to the consumer?

    I suspect its because 99% of the cost of producing commercially successful records is not (and never has been) studio related. Sure, studio time costs a fair bit, but never anything like the amount of money that is typically spent on publicity, production, promotion, distribution, and stuff like that.

    1. Re:Why? Hmmm.... let me think by poulbailey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > Sure, studio time costs a fair bit, but never anything like the amount of money
      > that is typically spent on publicity, production, promotion, distribution, and stuff like that.

      You forgot to add payola and litigation expenses to your list.

    2. Re:Why? Hmmm.... let me think by 4of12 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly.

      Walk into any shopping mall, find where they sell CDs, for almost $20 a piece, look who's buying them, how they found out about them, and you'll start to get the picture.

      You'll get an even clearer picture if start asking the people manning the store if they'd be willing to sell some copies of your garage band's latest CD.

      In the same way, flavored sugar water of a few particular brands is sold in the supermarket for incredibly high markup. Great-tasting, lesser-known off brands are sold in lesser volume for higher prices than the big name brands.

      There is a market for shelf space (slotting fees) that is not a paradigm of the best features of a free market in action.

      --
      "Provided by the management for your protection."
    3. Re:Why? Hmmm.... let me think by Surak · · Score: 1, Insightful

      That's the real question: Why isn't there more competition, now that every garage band has access to professional grade production equipment?

      Can you say "antitrust violations"? I knew you could.

      The RIAA owns the music business, lock stock and barrel. They control the prices, they control the airplay, they control everything except illegal MP3 copying (so far), and that's why they pushed to eliminate Napster, and that's why they're pushing so hard to eliminate Kazaa and company.

    4. Re:Why? Hmmm.... let me think by fobbman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      CD's don't have theatrical runs. Sure, many movies don't, but theater releases are where most movies make their big money.

    5. Re:Why? Hmmm.... let me think by chunkwhite86 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Despite the natural reaction to such a thread (I mean who doesn't want to bash the recording industry?) the fact of the matter is that studios are still very expensive.

      Bullshit. Take an $18 music CD. Multiply by 4 million copies sold (which isnt THAT many, relatively speaking). That's $72 Million. The artist will see about $175,000 of that, a couple bucks more gets eaten by the actual cost of manufacturing and selling the CD's, and the remaining $71 Million goes into the pockets of the RIAA. That's the way it works and it's total bullshit.

      I'm still waiting for the price of a new music CD to drop to $7 or $8. The RIAA did make this promise when CD's first came out, citing the high cost of the then-new technology. "Once CD technology becomes ubiquitous and commonplace, the price of manufacturing CD's will drop dramatically, and the savings will get passed to the consumer!".

      That's why the RIAA is a bunch of money-grubbing bastards.

      --
      I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
  3. Why aren't savings passed along? by Compulawyer · · Score: 1, Insightful

    That's easy. There are 2 ways to increase profits -- raise prices of lower costs (ok 3 - you can do both). Any of the three ways results in a higher profit margin (== price - cost). To pass along savings means to lower your margin or keep it steady. Increased margins == increased profits.

    --

    Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.

    1. Re:Why aren't savings passed along? by psychofox · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In a competitive market, if you don't lower price in the face of lower costs, your competitor will - and you will lose market share and therefore, ultimately, have a lower profit.

      The key point here is that, sadly, the record industry does not really represent a competitive market....

    2. Re:Why aren't savings passed along? by John_Booty · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In a competitive market, if you don't lower price in the face of lower costs, your competitor will - and you will lose market share and therefore, ultimately, have a lower profit.

      This doesn't really apply for intangible things like music. If you're building widgets for $1000 and selling them for $2000, I can figure out how to make my widgets and sell them for $1500 and blow you away- at least until you make your price cut.

      But with music, it's a little different. If stores are selling CD's for $18, of *course* I can make CD's in my home studio and sell them for $3. But who would buy them? People don't buy CD's based on technical features, they buy them because they're buying Madonna(tm) or Backstreet Boys(tm) or Metallica(tm). The music, the name, the image.

      We can make our little $3 CD's but people aren't going to buy them in large (comparable to major-label) quantities unless we make genuinely cooler music AND spend a shitload of cash getting radio play and doing promotion. That's really where most of the money major labels spend goes and why CD's cost a lot.

      Sure, they might (probably?) have an ungodly profit margin, but it's hard to tell. The point is that unlike a lot of products you can't simply compete with the major labels on "price" and "features" alone...

      --

      OtakuBooty.com: Smart, funny, sexy nerds.
  4. Not that big of cost to record label by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The cost of recording and producing a record is
    very cheap compared to promoting a band. When you buy a CD your not paying for the Production your paying for the bands Brand reckognition and promotion costs not to mention all the RIAA lawyer bills, and reckord execs like a big pay day too.

  5. Basic economics by TopShelf · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Production savings will only get passed to the consumer when other producers are willing to compete on price - but if Band X produces their next album for $200,000 less than the previous one, why should they cut the price at all?

    --
    Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
  6. We already know the answer to this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    because there is no competition!

    It it were a truly open market, then these increases in efficiency would be passed on to the consumer as lower prices. However, since the recording industry has done everything possible to insure that there is little or no competition, it just results in higher profits.

    This is the danger inherent in monopolies and oligopolies.

    1. Re:We already know the answer to this... by SirWhoopass · · Score: 2, Insightful

      To be fair, the RIAA isn't the only issue when looking at competition in the music industry.

      Popular music is not interchangable . It's not like wheat or oil. The product you get from one source is different than what you get from another source (boy band jokes aside). If the Aerosmith CD is $15 and the Britney Spears CD is $8 are you going to buy the Britney album simply because it's cheaper? Most likely you're going to purchase the type of music you like to listen to, cost is a secondary issue.

      Even if there was some sort of radical transformation of the industry-- say that artists held all the rights and issued multiple contracts (for the exact same album) to multiple publishers. The publishers would then have an incentive to lower costs, but the artists would not because their product is still unique. The costs would end up being a bit more like concert ticket prices in which the big names can command much higher prices than the small ones.

  7. I read this last week... by evil+carrot · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...and while it does make some good points about cheap, home-brewed recording (whether Pro Tools or not) it doesn't take into account:

    Using said studios
    Hiring people to mix, master, and produce albums
    Advertising and promotion
    Paying everyone associated with the album in a fair manner aside from the artist
    The fact Hilary Rosen does not have enough money.

    --

    I am not who I say you are.
  8. Alternate to Pro Tools by Ranma · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Actually I do a lot of recording myself, and I've never used pro tools before, although I have heard great things.

    If you are looking for a good alternative to pro tools, I am quite happy with my Tascam US-428 (http://www.tascam.com) and Cool Edit Pro 2.0(Multitrack recording)(http://http://www.syntrillium.com/)..

    Infact, I just recorded an eight track demo for my friends who are in a little band, and I can tell you the quality is pretty damn good compared to the price of recording in most studios(Some run about $100 an hour). Anyway, thats my two cents.

  9. Passing Savings to Consumers by totallygeek · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I listen to mostly punk, and am very happy with the wonderful pricing of music. I can pick up sampler CDs for less than ten bucks to see what is really worth listening to, get samples from websites, and purchase whole, new CDs for $12 (shipping included). When I order direct, I usually get a thrown-in CD sampler and a sticker or poster.


    The punk mentality has paid-off in some situations. Look at Epitaph or Fat Wreck Chords. Not only are they highly sucessful, but are good to the bands. And, the bands are good to the fans.

  10. Not to nitpick, but... by MrTilney · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't want to start a flame war, because I pretty much hate the recording industry, but there are a lot more costs involved in recording than just Pro Tools.

    First, you need a good way to get that audio into your computer, and these are still expensive. The newest consumer level Pro Tools mixing board costs about $1500 and can mix 8 sources at a time. The price of larger boards increases exponentially. A professional audio DAT drive ain't cheap, and, most importantly, TO GET A HIGH QUALITY RECORDING YOU NEED A STUDIO. Good quality sound absorbers aren't cheap.

    My point is, and let the flames begin, that there are still a lot of costs to sound recording. Also, the cost of producing an album isn't why they're so expensive. If that was true, CD costs would have fell when they became cheap to produce.

  11. This is a silly argument. by grub · · Score: 4, Insightful


    but why aren't the benefits of lower production costs being passed on to the consumer?

    Why do movies still cost an arm and a leg to go see when they use Linux clusters rather than SGI machines to do the rendering? Just because a company becomes more efficient doesn't mean they have to pass on the savings. What if the company was losing money until they found a way to shave a few bucks from their costs and make a profit? Are they supposed to cut their prices and continue to lose money?

    --
    Trolling is a art,
  12. Producers. by supabeast! · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "...but why aren't the benefits of lower production costs being passed on to the consumer?"

    Pro Tools might knock a few tens-of-thousands off the cost of producing an album, but the real cost is the producer himself. Good producers can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars for a big album. In short, it doesn't matter what tools Puff Daddy uses to produce an album, all that matters is that Puff Daddy produced it.

    1. Re:Producers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Good studio musicians cost money too, but not if you can play your own instruments. Good production is a highly technical art, but I see no inherent reason why a musician can't do it well...he just has to learn how, just as he learned his instrument.

  13. Duh by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why aren't lower production costs being passed on to the consumer? Because they don't have to be. That only happens in a competetive market (I have an econ final tomorrow). One record label isn't going to cut their pruduction costs and start selling CDs at a lower price than the other labels in an attempt to win market share. They're just going to pocket more money. There are two answers why, pick which one you like:

    1) The members of the RIAA are illegally conspring to stop competition in their market.

    2) Since the music market doesn't sell homogeneous goods, this is just how it works. Only one label sells Britney Spears CDs and they can charge whatever they want becaue nobody else is going to compete directly against them. But a Christina Aguillera album is a subsitute good that people will turn to if the Briney album is too overpriced (I'm going to ace this final tomorrow).

    -B

    Someone will more than one econ class can chime in now and tell me I'm full of shit.

  14. Re:They are as yet...u n a w a r e by coupland · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Apple is not leading the way. They are paying royalties to the same fools who worked so hard to prevent music ever being accessible online.

    Herein lies a moral dilemma as I see it. I've long said that if the major labels had offered a good online experience with no copy protection and songs at $1 a pop I would gladly pay. Apple has now done that. However the question I now ask is: "After years of litigation, accusations, predatory pricing, and complete disregard for customers, should I finally return to financing these crooks because after they lost the war they decided to do the right thing?" I suppose the answer is implied in the question. If the RIAA had had the slightest bit of respect for customers it would never have come to this, but quite frankly I've stopped buying music and doubt I'll ever return until someone comes along who cuts the fat cats out of the profits.

  15. Re:ProTools is a large reason modern music sucks by anna-sophia · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Modern Pop Sucks. Pro Tools doesn't suck.
    Just over use of plugin's, production ideas and lack of creativity.

    My 2 Euro cents worth.

  16. Re:ProTools is a large reason modern music sucks by TedCheshireAcad · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Well, consider that most music is going to be encoded at 128kbps mp3 and passed around college campuses like the crabs.

    I, too have felt the effects of these problems. 128kbps mp3 encoding should be a crime.

  17. Produced, but Good? by pastpolls · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yes, most albums are produced on Pro-Tools, which is a very good piece of software. As a matter of fact, the company that makes it offers a free version (anything below win2k and OS9 only). But saying that Pro-Tools in inexpensive, therefore albums should be cheaper is like saying the a hammer builds a house, and hammers are cheap, so I should be able to build a house cheap. Pro-Tools is a tool. The most expensive parts of album creation are the musicians (yes, most artists still use actual musicians, and that includes rap artists), and the producers. A good producer will cost hundreds of dollars an hour, plus expenses. The producer will also get a piece on the backend. Also, there is the process of Mastering, which is done using a lot of outboard gear. Mastering can be very expensive.

    But with that said, Pro-Tools is the Avid of audio editing (Avid is the most popular brand of professional video editing software and equipment). If you are interested in audio tracking, then definitely check it out.

  18. Clueless Geeks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The only thing cheapening production equipment does is allow for a lot of un-talented musicians to create cheap sounding music and upload it to mp3.com where it collects dust.

    I believe that the money invested in producing a quality CD is not spent on gear, its spent on the labor involved. Record labels don't go out and buy new production equipment everytime they sign a new band - they line up studio time with whatever producers and engineers fit within their budget. Those producers and engineers don't use the cheap version of pro-tools. Along with the super-expensive version, they use racks and racks of expensive analog equipment which (according to them) sounds a million times better than all of the digital plugin crap polluting the market. Personally I'm not sure that it sounds "better" - but I do know that every piece of analog gear they use has a unique sound that their ears have grown intimately familiar with over the period of many years, and thus they must continue to use that gear to get the sound they want. Since those guys are the driving force behind the major label albums, there's no reason why the cheap-gear market would have any effect on their studio costs.

    The cheapening of the production equipment isn't all bad, because for every 1000 or 2000 pipe-dream consumers who think they can produce the next Britney Spears album by simply shelling out $600 for the latest software, there are 1 or 2 dedicated musicians who wisely invest in the equipment thats going to be with them for the next several years while their skills mature.

    The only reason it seems like gear has become more affordable is because the industry has realized that if they sufficiently cheapen the quality (aka price) of their gear, they gain access to an entire market of wishful thinking wanna-be rockstars and dj's who wouldn't know what a good sound was if it tore through their eardrums.

    Hasn't anyone here seen American Idol?

  19. Re:ProTools is a large reason modern music sucks by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 5, Insightful


    ProTools doesn't run itself, not even in the $15,000 version. If too much music is coming out that's over-compressed, sterile, and voice-tuned to hell, then it's the fault of the person sitting at the console -- not the tool.

  20. and as for pro-tools by RonenKauffman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There are a couple of ways you can approach the idea of recorded music. As a musician, youc an either try to make it sound as close as possible to a live performace as possible - or you can take the flexibility and creative potential afforded by technology and create something that reflects a particular refinement of vision, if not an accurate reproduction of live performance. As a recording artist and technologist, I can see it both ways.

    --

    ----------------------
    RKauffman s.e.c.r.e.t.m.e.d.i.a.g.r.o.u.p
  21. Re:They have one themselves too: by Yohahn · · Score: 2, Insightful

    >Free as in beer, obviously, and limited, but hey - >beer good!

    Beer good, Brewery better, Freedom best.

  22. benefits *are* being passed on by John_Sauter · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Almost every time I hear a professional soloist or well-organized group play live music, I can buy a CD from them of their music. Recently I encountered a very good guitar/tambourine player in a restaurant. He didn't have a CD, so I referred my friendly local CD producer to him.

    Music production is moving from the expensive studio to the musician's garage. I don't use Pro Tools, and I don't have a sound studio, but I can make a simple demo CD for a music group by mikeing their rehearsal hall for about $500. That's $250 for me and $250 to stamp the CDs commercially. My friendly local CD producer charges more but gets better results. If all you want is a demo or a CD to sell at your gigs you don't need a $100,000 producer.
    John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)

  23. Re:ProTools is a large reason modern music sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sorry, but you can do all that in the analog realm. The VGA class of effects has been around since the 60's.
    Producers routinely sliced the shit out of master tapes and used submixes to comp stuff together from the time they stopped recording direct to disk. The problem is that before it took a greater level of skill and a lot more time.

    ProTools has contributed to the rising mediocrity due to the fact that people with marginal talent have access to clever algorithms that they would never have thought of in the analog realm because of a lack of understanding of how things work.

    So, you're sort of right, bur sort of wrong too.

  24. Costs passed on? by Varitek · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The lowers costs aren't passed on to the customer because . . . they never are. No business ever voluntarily passes on cost savings. They'll only do it in the face of competition or regulation, and the record companies are acting more like a cartel than an industry.

  25. No, in the grand scheme of things, it's not. by joshamania · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The studio and time for engineers is not that expensive in the grand scheme of things. A gold record, that sells half a million copies, and generally puts the band into debt, not makes them money, will net $5 million if wholesale prices are $10 bucks a shot.

    Your studio didn't cost $5 million to build from the ground up. Nowhere even close.

    The record companies are using copyright to enslave musicians and steal their work. Period. They're a bunch of bastard middlemen that drive up the price of everything for their own benefit.

    You can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in a studio and not come close to putting a major dent in the revenue of a gold record.

    Studio costs are not a major factor. It's marketing, payola, promotion, litigation and outright theft (from musicians and consumers) that cause albums to be so highly priced.

  26. Can we talk about something else, please? by j-b0y · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Because there is only so many times a week that I can stomach listening to Slashdot's collective indignance about the recording industry and its antics.

    Surprise, surprise: advances in technology drive down the costs of production; I'm sure that every aspect of the music business has benefitted from this in some way or another.

    Equally unsurprising: We're not seeing any of this money, as the industry is effectively an oligopoly, with high barriers to entry on a national/international level.

    And between a) apathy-induced boycotts of major label artists on the grounds of not being very good, and b) illegal distribution of the very little we can be bothered to buy via P2P networks, we'll either remedy the situation through the collapse of recording industry as we know it or make it worse through yet further consolidation of record labels, putting even more power in the hands of the people we despise the most.

    God I'm feeling cynical today.

    --
    Please remain calm, there is no reason to pani... wait, where are you all going?
  27. Re:ProTools is a large reason modern music sucks by martyros · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Amen, mod that parent up. It may sound impressive at first, but if you listen you can definitely tell the lame music done the way described in the article from the good stuff.

    What's more, the article talks as though the studio is now obsolete -- as though the mixing decks and equipment were the only importnat part of the studio. One of the major reasons for going to a studio at all is the sound. No matter how good your mic is, if you record it in a square room you get standing waves and all kinds of acoustic crap, making it sound like you did your recording in a bathroom; furthermore, if you're not isolated, you pick up the ventilation system, the whir of the computer fans, and trucks (or ghetto blasters) driving by outside. There's only so much Pro Tools can do to compensate for a crappy input (I know, I've tried).

    Studios put a lot of work into making a room tha has good acoustic qualities and is isolated from all nasty bits of noise; designing, building, and maintaining such a room is still an expensive venture, and still necessary for a decent recording.

    --

    TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.

  28. Re:Um, maybe by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    when CDs first came out, their outrageous price versus cassettes was justified by the fact that there were only 2 stamping plants in operation. Why didn't they ever go down in price?

    Didn't they?

    I rarely pay more than $14 for a CD in the year 2003. That's less than the first waves of compact discs went for in the early 1980s -- not even taking into account the past 20 years' worth of devaluation of the dollar due to inflation.

  29. So Linux has reduced the cost of software dev? by copponex · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I work in a pro audio shop called Atlanta Pro Audio (shameless plug). Saying that cheaper hardware has reduced the cost of an album is just like saying the reduced cost of computer hardware has lessened the expense of developing software.

    It is true that Pro Tools has made the hardware costs of getting a *demo* out pretty cheap, but to say that the pro version only costs $15,000 is an untrue statement. If you really want to cut an album that will be suitable to SEND to a real mastering house, you will spend $50,000 at the very least. And if you want the little Mbox for $450, you still need a computer ($1,500), and plug-ins ($2,000), and keyboards ($2,000), and instruments ($MUCHO), and outboard gear ($MEGAMUCHO), and mics ($1000)...

    Audio engineers are still expensive. Producers are expensive. Getting a record mastered, and I guarantee everything you've heard on the radio has been mastered, is *very* expensive. Mastering houses still have equipment in the .75 to 2 million dollar range.

    All of this is still irrelevant. Payola still runs the music industry. I have heard it from more than one of our customers that if you have a million dollars for advertising, you have a gold record.

  30. where the $ goes by drgroove · · Score: 4, Insightful

    " ...but why aren't the benefits of lower production costs being passed on to the consumer?"

    This question deserves an explanation of how record companies finance record production.

    First, once an artist has been 'signed' (which essentially means that the record company retains all legal rights to material produced by artist 'x' for a specific duration of output, determined in either number of albums or number of years, contingent on performance, behavior, and sales), the record company then forwards the artist an advance on their future record sales with which to have their album written, produced, tracked, and recorded to a medium.

    This forwarded money is expected to be paid back to the record company by the artist once the record is on store shelves, regardless of how many are sold.

    Recording artists receive a pittance of record sales revenues, touring revenues, and royalties from radio stations, commercials, and the like for the playing of their songs... remember, the record company had the artist sign a contract which passed those rights onto the record company. Additionally, the record company applies all revenue to the repayment of their loan, and until this has been repaid in full, the artist does not receive any profit.

    Many recording artists (take TLC, the female african-american rap group, for instance) make an average salary of $30,000/yr - or less - after paying the record company back for their loan.

    This terrible financial arrangement being the case, the only way for recording artists to maximize their revenue potential is to retain a larger portion of the original recording loan, which can then be used to either pay the record company back more readily, or invested to generate its own revenue, etc etc. This being the case, many recording artists turn to commercial recording equipment in order to cut production costs, and actually stand a chance of making money off of their creative material.

  31. what about the people? by rabbits77 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Production costs are so high still because, in part, of the fact that the people working in the studio are skilled and well compensated professionals. Wait, I know!! If you want cheaper CDs lets move music production to India!!

  32. Re:ProTools is a large reason modern music sucks by Dr.+Awktagon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Nonsense...

    Over-compression is a problem with many recordings, sure, that's not because of Pro Tools. Many amateurs over-compress too, and they have been since they figured out how.

    "Voice-tuning" is usually done by a product made by Antares and has nothing to do with Pro Tools. It's available for every other recording software too, and is available as an external box. Auto-Tune is actually used on many recordings these days to clean up the singing. Again, this is the fault of the people using Pro Tools, and has nothing to do with Pro Tools. Pro Tools doesn't do this out of the box (at least, last I used it).

    In fact all your complaints have nothing to do with Pro Tools. Popular music was faddish and homogeneous long before Pro Tools.

    PT is a great program and turns any machine into a flexible multi-track recorder. It reminds me a lot of Photoshop in that it has a good interface, it helps you get your work done, it opens up huge new possibilities, and certain features of it are cliched and over-used by a lot of folks (are we sick of drop-shadows yet? over-sharpened photos? "funky borders"?)

    There's nothing "evil" about PT. It doesn't "do" anything unless someone pushes the buttons and slides the sliders.

    You could argue that any music tech is bad ... tape recorders (no live music!) ... soundproof studios (where's the ambience?) ... electric guitars (all the sound is effects) .. microphones (they color the sound!) ... but you'd be wrong .. Pro tools like any other music tech has opened up a lot of possibilities, and popular music aside, I love to hear the things people can do when they start to push the boundaries of those possibilities.

  33. One Tiny Cost by nick_davison · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "$495 for the home version or $15,000 for the pro version.

    why aren't the benefits of lower production costs being passed on to the consumer?"


    Because that's one program. Install it on your Alienware PC and you'll still create terrible sounding crap.

    Now pay rent on a building. Properly set it up for acoustics. Add perfectly matched, pro level monitors. Add some seriously expensive sound cards that can work with multiple sources and no lag. Add a set of mics at a couple of grand a pop. Add a mixing desk that connects to pro-tools so you can actually make smooth fine controls. Add a decent guitar/amp (about $5k), now multiply by about five for all the variations used on a typical album. Add a drum kit and a lot of heads (Dave Grohl reportedly got through a set of heads per track when recording Nevermind). Add pro-grade cabling so your sound doesn't get muddied up. Add a PC capable of dealing with it all, fast SCSI drives and all.

    Those are just the bits and pieces I can think of, just being an amateur guitarist who never records but does spend too much time in guitar shops. I'd imagine there's a hell of a lot more.

    All of a sudden, the $495 seems insignificant. Even the $15,000 for the pro version.

    Yes, you can record music with pro-tools and a typical home PC. A lot of people do. And it sounds fairly good compared to recordings of say the 1950s.

    Just because one aspect gets a bit cheaper, doesn't mean the process gets cheaper. It just means that the capabilities get higher. I remember paying $200 for 4mb of ram, $3,000 for a 16mhz 286. Now I can get a hundred times that power for about $250 yet I still buy $3,000 PCs. How can that be?

  34. Re:What does it do? by sulaco252 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    An important part of the ProTools equation is the hardware that goes along with the software. All audio inputs/outputs are made via external I/O modules which interface with proprietary cards in the computer. This provides many benefits the least of which is isolating the audio pathway from the inherent noise inside the computer.

    Another reason is the excellent plug-in system. There are hundreds of plug-in modules that can do just about anything you could imagine to audio. You can even write your own plug-ins if you like.

    Many people would be quite shocked as I was to see the AutoTune plug-in work for the first time. I have watched an engineer friend of mine raise and lower pitches of parts of notes to bring them in tune (which is an art form itself). This gives engineers and producers the ability to exercise a "record now fix later" production process at their discretion. There was a time not too long ago when the artist really had to be able to sing well in the studio. Now they can get pretty close and it will be fixed later.

    There are many audio packages out there that sport similar features but the real answer to your question is that there is an extremely high level of quality associated with the entire system that is lacking in many mid and consumer level audio packages. Every part of a ProTools system is designed from the ground up to create pro level production quality audio.

    --

    (There used to be something clever here.)

  35. Re:They have one themselves too: by FiloEleven · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The problem with PTFree is that it only runs on Macs or Win98 machines. I know it's overkill to ask for a Linux version, but there isn't one for NT family either.

  36. Mmmm. The Pro Tools sound by c13v3rm0nk3y · · Score: 3, Insightful

    While I think that the initial question posed in the OP has been addressed, I can't help but think that the real impact Pro Tools has had on commercial music is not lower overall production costs.

    Like any software tool, Pro Tools can be an excellent way for skilled people to create good things. It can help novices or amateurs (see meaning [1]) develop their skills relatively cheaply. It can also create a whole universe of music that is flat, bland and mind-numbingly the same.

    Whenever a particular tool becomes dominant in a field (whether it "deserves" to be dominant or not) it tends to place it's mark on a wide swath of work in that field. I'm thinking particularly of tools like Photoshop and Quark. Anyone who is familar with these tools is usually familar with the standard dreck that is churned out using them.

    I've noticed the same trend with Pro Tools. In some ways, Pro Tools can be a bit of a lie: you can get four guys to stand up and belt out a tune and using Pro Tools you can normalize, compress, expand, quantize and otherwise tweak the hell out of the recording and make it sound good. Or at least as good as everything else.

    There is a universal sameness to much Pro Tools produced music. Everything is limited to just below peak. Vocals are compressed, doubled and quantized to unearthly degrees. Each instrument is patched through the standard reverbs de rigueur. There are 128 tracks per song not because they are put to good use, but because you can have 128+ tracks per song.

    This is not to say that Pro Tools can't be used to make good music. Nobody could say that, just as nobody could really say that Photoshop can't produce good print-ready images. But Photoshop is not a good tool to paint a picture, and Pro Tools does not replace the entire studio and a smart engineer with big ears behind the console.

    As a musician, the trick is to know the limitations of your gadgets. Pro Tools will not, and can not, replace old-fashioned tracking, microphone placement, wet/dry mixes, or human-tuned compression.

    The success of Pro Tools has created the Pro Tools sound, and one that I am not overly fond of. As music in the digital domain matures, I hope and expect we will move away from overuse of any single tool. This seems to be the history of popular music, anway.

    --
    -- clvrmnky
  37. Re:Indeed - but we can hope for a pendulum effect. by dmstevens · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Bunk.

    An "anti-ProTools movement" if successful would take inexpensive music-making tools out of the hands of exactly the "real musicians" you want to hear. Those people are making music at home, in basements, in tiny studios, with a generation of affordable tools that level the recording playing field in the same way the web has helped to level the publishing playing field.

    BTW, I'm recording a choir tonight with a tiny DAT deck and mics and earplug headphones that all fit in my pockets and run on 2 AA batteries and will make a recording that will sound better than many CDs in the stores. I'm darned happy all this stuff is out there and affordable.

  38. Here's Why... by iwillrefuse · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Beacuse labels often own, or have "agreements" with more traditional studios, and going back to the heads saying "You know all that shit we spent 2 million on 4 years ago? It's outdated." People HATE being wrong, especially with money, and even more so when there jobs depend on it. So while a large portion of recordings are possibly edited in Pro Tools, it's become more of an "add-on" for existing "physical studios". Another thing to keep in mind is that production cost is primarily a "service fee", ie cost the the producer himself, the mastering, the engineer, etc. Their time has, and will always be the most valuable/expensive asset, and irregardless of wether their setup costs $500,000 or $25,000 THEIR TIME will likely never change. Sure, there are great plug-ins that save time, but why should the Suits ever know about this? Just because they could do something in an hour that used to take them 5 doesn't mean they will - and believe me, I know guys like this, and they won't lose there livlihood to a few CD-Roms.

  39. Re:They are as yet...u n a w a r e by WNight · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Apple is doing something that the RIAA thinks is good, but in reality, I think it's the surest sign that they're dying.

    Their profit margins are sky-high because they bundle content. You want that hit song? Sure, with these 14 crap songs, all at just over a buck each.

    On a song-by-song basis, they'll make more money selling songs now, with electronic distribution. But they won't sell any copies of the 14 crap songs. They'll go from 40% or so (what I've heard is label profit from a $20 CD) of $20, for one good song, to 60% of a dollar (assuming they keep all the gains from cutting out physical distribution and don't give any extra to the artist - a safe assumption).

    They're also cutting the throats of their retail partners. They need to own retail completely to keep their monopoly control. If they betray retail, retail is going to betray them. Selling indie music, not price-fixing, all these terrible things.

    This helps the consumer because, assuming we buy, we're buying more quality music and less crap. (Quality meaning, what we want, not any objective standard.) We're getting it at a much lower price, and there's no brand loyalty. We'll shop at Apple because they're the only one, for now, but as soon as another site offers it we'll jump ship for $.02 savings. There'll be fan sites listing the price differences at the sales sites.

    They'll have done what they always fought against, turned their music into an uncontrollable commodity. Sure, they'll get paid for each track, but their fantastic profits are gone. With that goes their huge advertising budgets and all of a sudden it's reasonable for other companies to compete in the publishing/promotions business.

  40. Re:Vocoder by AlphaSys · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Hey... thanks for using the proper term. Today, all the S/W-only n00bs all think it is vocoRder just because the plugin makers didn't use the proper vernacular. The original effect was produced by what was called a vocoder. It should be noted that the obvious pitch-shifting was the *desired* effect. Similar in some respects to how one used the "talk box" to turn the shape of the oral cavity into a parametric EQ sweep for the output of a guitar amp, then fed into a vocal mic. Nice to know someone out there remembers the good ol' days.

    --
    Can I bum a sig? I left mine at the office.
  41. two words - Value Delivered by Presence1 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    this is a good that is sold on the basis of "Value Delivered" as opposed to a price related to "Cost To Produce". I.e., pricing is relatively immune to changes in production cost in either direction.

    This is a market where competition is skewed -- the goods aren't fungible. In fact, the very popularity of a good in this market increases its value, exactly at the same time as reducing its per unit cost to produce (longer production runs), market (amortized over more units), etc.

    So, I would not expect lower production costs to change prices from major labels. What this DOES do, though, is to enable micro-producers to actually become economical. I.e., you can buy good music from small artists at lower cost.

  42. Re:They are as yet...u n a w a r e by EinarH · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Mod parent up; my mod points are all gone. But I would definitely modded this up as Insightful if I could.

    I agree on what you write with one exception:

    This helps the consumer because, assuming we buy, we're buying more quality music and less crap. (Quality meaning, what we want, not any objective standard.)
    Even if we get the music that we want and that means higher quality for us (higher quality in an subjective way); the result of this way of shopping music won't be only good.
    The focus will (on longterm) shift even more from good albums an the total music experience with a good album to even more focus in singles.

    Many "classic" rock and pop albums are good because of the combination of songs. Take for example some Metallica albums or Beatles, Radiohead, Massive Attack or Queen albums. Of course many of these albums have great singles but not all good albums have this.

    --

    Melius mori in libertate quam vivere in servitute.

  43. Re:They are as yet...u n a w a r e by WNight · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It only means this if the fans don't agree with the artist about how the music is best appreciated. It does mean the end of albums, but I think you'd still have collections of song that flow from one to the other. If you don't I think it's the public saying that they don't think it improves the experience.

    I think the marketing push would almost be stronger. If you don't tie your music like this, the Britneys of the world, pop music producers, would sell whatever is playing on the radio (or whatever radio replacement we use) and not sell anything else. If you package your music so that the radio-played piece is a perfect lead into another set, you'll have people who appreciate this buying both.

    Speaking of which, we need a music player that recognizes mini-playlists, so you can play certain tracks in order, within a global random. It should also hide the tracks as singles if they're in one of these playlists.

  44. Music as commodity by Metropolitan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Music sales don't depend on variable costs. If record 'A' costs less than record 'B', there is no modification in the wholesale pricing of record 'A'.

    The distribution companies will charge what the average teenager is willing to spend per album, whether it be via electronic distribution or otherwise. Remember when CDs first came out, and the music industry said 'the price will drop as these things get less expensive to make'? Last I checked the discs were less than a quarter each, and the price per unit keeps rising.

    For another model, please see Starbucks Coffee. Wholesale coffee bean prices dropped last year to a 20-year low (less than half of what it had been per pound the year before), and not a single store dropped the price of their coffee-based drinks a penny. They have found out that people will pay their prices because they don't think anything else is possible, so what incentive do they have to change?

    The answer is stop supporting companies who behave without ethical considerations, who keep their accounting methods so secret that not even the musicians can get an clear picture of where their money is going, who scream 'foul' every time somebody wants to even attempt to question their pricing models, etc. If a musician sells 5 million albums, and are still unable to clear a penny, there is something fundamentally wrong.

    Oh a side note: just because recording software is relatively inexpensive doesn't mean that a wave of incredible music will sweep forth from every spare bedroom and cottage in the land. Skill at songwriting and musicianship are still not available at the Apple Store, or through Sweetwater. OTOH, we still seem to have Ms. Spears and her ilk being hurled at us from every radio station in the country, so who knows? Perhaps we're just numb, and can't recognize good music when we hear it any longer.