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ATI Radeon 9800 Pro vs. NVidia GeForce 5900

Posted by timothy on from the if-you've-got-the-money dept.

HardcoreGamer writes "Today ATI shipped its Radeon 9800 Pro 256 MB DDR-2 card in time for E3 and nVidia announced the NV35-based GeForce 5900 which will be available in June. Early tests seem to say that while nVidia edges ahead of ATI in specific areas, overall ATI still has the better card. The caveat is that the next generation of DirectX 9-based games (like Doom 3 and Half-Life 2, demonstrated with ATI at E3) will truly determine which is the better card. Lots of coverage at PC Magazine, PC World, The Register (ATI) (nVidia), ExtremeTech, InternetNews, and Forbes/Reuters. Either way, at $450-$500, serious gamers are about to get another serious dent in their wallets."

80 of 318 comments (clear)

  1. Minor annoyances by DetrimentalFiend · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Just a small note, but one that's been bothering me with all of these reviews: Not all 'next generation' games are 'dx9.' Though the new cards are dx9, many games (coincidently, most of the best games) use OpenGL. Unfortunately, it's much easier to incorrectly call Doom3 a dx9 game than to cite the OpenGL extensions (like shaders) that are used.

    (Also, I'll note that Doom3 may be technically a DirectX9 game because its sound and input MAY use it, but in the context that people have been talking about dx9 games, it is still incorrect.)

    1. Re:Minor annoyances by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's really rather quite simple. A small subset of 3D games are OpenGL games. These hardware accelerators are incidentally designed to adhere to standards defined by DirectX. They simply expose this functionality as part of their OpenGL implementation, either as vendor-specific extensions or otherwise. Doom 3 will make use of features standardized between DirectX 8 to DirectX 9 3D hardware. No one is going to enumerate every possible OpenGL extension the engine can be run with, as there're numerous render paths. They're not incorrect for using DirectX as a benchmark for functionality the engine will make use of, even if it doesn't use the API. Most 3D engines, though, actually do use DirectX. Source and Unreal both do, for instance.

    2. Re:Minor annoyances by The+Analog+Kid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You right, but that will change as Linux popularity will grow, developers will find it easier to use OpenGL as it cross-platform and DirectX isn't. SDL and OpenAL will come into play as well. People may say that OpenGL is lagging in progress but games like DOOM3 make me somewhat skeptical of these people. Long live Carmack.

    3. Re:Minor annoyances by Daengbo · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yes, but, unfortunately my S3 Trio64V+ doesn't support either OpenGL or DirectX9, so I guess I won't be playing Doom3. Sigh. And I was so worked up over it!

      --
      Put identity in the browser.
    4. Re:Minor annoyances by quantum+bit · · Score: 4, Informative

      As it stands, the current Quake 3 engine and the upcoming Doom 3 engine are the only major OpenGL-based engines I can think of. And they were both done by theCarmack and crew.

      While UT2003 uses DirectX by default on Windows platforms, it does have an OpenGL renderer also. You can switch it to use OpenGL instead, and the Linux version (of course) uses OpenGL by default.

      I think it also uses OpenAL...

    5. Re:Minor annoyances by Osty · · Score: 5, Insightful

      While UT2003 uses DirectX by default on Windows platforms, it does have an OpenGL renderer also. You can switch it to use OpenGL instead, and the Linux version (of course) uses OpenGL by default.

      The Unreal engine, and more generally the guys at Epic (Tim Sweeney) operate under a different philosophy than the guys at Id. The unreal engine is quite modular. In fact, it was originally written focusing on GLIDE as the preferred rendering method. Today, DX is the preferred method, even though the current engine (even with all of its changes, which has surely included complete rewrites of components over the years) can trace itself all the way back to that GLIDE-inspired code.


      Id, on the other hand, likes to start "from scratch". Between Unreal I and UT2K3/Unreal 2/Splinter Cell/Raven Shield/all of the other Unreal-based games out today, Id's gone through Quake 2, Quake 3, and is gearing up for Doom 3. Each one of those engines was different, and pretty much rewritten from the ground up each time (I'm sure there are some core components that theCarmack reuses, but essentially it's all new code).


      Which approach is better? Depends. Epic's approach to incremental engine design lets third parties license their engine and benefit from on-going development, as well as getting the newer technology out there quicker. Id's approach caters to theCarmack's godlike abilities, and gives us something to look forward to with bated breath. The strength of theCarmack's code proves itself when the aging Q3 engine can still hold its own against the newest of Unreal-based games (for example, the upcoming Jedi Knight Academy game). I say let's keep 'em both.


      Oh, and I'm pretty sure Unreal's audio engine is modular as well, supporting the proprietary Miles system, DirectSound, and probably also OpenAL. Same with the input engine (DirectInput, SDL).

  2. I've pirated software, songs, before... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    ... but will some smart /.er out there create a way for me to pirate hardware?

    That'd be really nice. Thanks!

  3. Will this card let me play EQ full feature mode by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    My basis is being in a zone with about 20
    other people with a high GHz and Mbyte machine
    and see if the card allows the graphics without
    slowing down the game.

  4. ummm...dent? by drwhite · · Score: 5, Funny

    "...serious dent in their wallets."

    Dont you mean 'hole'.

    1. Re:ummm...dent? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      or perhaps 'crater'

  5. Easy choice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    The choice is easy: go for the hardware with the higher number after it's name.

  6. Please clarify... by jpt.d · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Is DetrimentalFiend correct when he says that only parts of doom3 may be dx9? The rest would in fact be openGL correct?

    --
    What we see depends on mainly what we look for. -- John Lubbock Now search for that bug slave!
    1. Re:Please clarify... by DetrimentalFiend · · Score: 4, Informative

      Every graphics engine since Quake 1, that John Carmack has made, has used OpenGL. In his latest .plan update he makes many comments about using OpenGL, though the most obvious is this: "Trying to keep boneheaded-ideas-that-will-haunt-us-for-years out of Direct-X is the primary reason I have been attending the Windows Graphics Summit for the past three years, even though I still code for OpenGL." Anyway, if an interesting read is his .plan update when he was first experimenting with OpenGL in quake. Basically, there are not as many problems with DirectX anymore, but he still uses OpenGL. Personally I like OpenGL better because of its design philosophy and because it's cross platform. Anyway, some links are below for those interested.

      http://www.bluesnews.com/plans/1/

      http://www.exaflop.org/docs/d3dogl/d3dogl_jc_plan. html

    2. Re:Please clarify... by sjelkjd · · Score: 5, Informative

      People call games "DX9 games" because the various DirectX revisions give a rough dilineation of the different generations of graphics hardware. Roughly, they are:

      DirectX 6: Software Transform and lighting. Most games from this category use lightmaps for lighting, rather than goraud(per vertex) shading.

      DirectX 7: Hardware T&L. All those new T&L enabled games you heard about belong here. The opengl equivalent is calling glTranslate, glRotate, etc do to transformations, and using glLight to do lighting

      DirectX 8: Vertex and Pixel Shaders. Let's you program the vertex transform and lighting part, and to a lesser extent, the pixel processing part, of the graphics pipeline. Corresponds to the OpenGL extensions NV_VERTEX_PROGRAM, NV_TEXTURE_SHADER, and NV_REGISTER_COMBINERS(for nvidia, similar extensions for ATI)

      DirectX 9: Highly programmable Vertex and Pixel Shaders. The old pixel shader model let you do something like 8 operations max, while the new model greatly extends this number. OpenGL extensions are ARB_VERTEX_PROGRAM and ARB_FRAGMENT_PROGRAM.

      This is really only a brief overview, there are many, many more OpenGL extensions(which you can see here, some of which have no DirectX counterparts. It's easier to tell non-graphics programmers "It's a DX9 game" than "Oh, it uses OpenGL 1.4, ARB_VERTEX_PROGRAM, ARB_TEXTURE_PROGRAM, etc", especially since DirectX is a well-known name. People generally aren't as aware of the various revisions of OpenGL(which are mainly exposed through extensions).
      Doom 3 uses OpenGL for its graphics. In fact, the basic tech required is really DirectX 8 level(bump mapping and stencil buffer), but it looks better on DirectX 9 hardware(due to the higher programmability). It likely uses other Direct X APIs for sound, networking, etc on Windows.

    3. Re:Please clarify... by DetrimentalFiend · · Score: 2, Informative

      I guess my above post may not have exactly answered your question. DirectX is a suit of media components including network, sound, input, graphics. Most developers use it for sound and input. In fact, many libraries, like SDL, simply are a layer between DirectX on windows. I don't know of anyone who uses the network component (direct play), but many people do choose to use Direct3d (the graphics component). Quake 2 and 3 used DirectX for input and sound, if I remember correctly, and used OpenGL for graphics. Because of the .plan file, Doom3 will be OpenGL based, and, because of history and industry trends, we can assume it will use DirectX 8 or 9 for sound and input.

  7. Re:Minor annoyances-Big Bills by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'd like to add to this. At $400-500 serious gamers better get use to eating Ramen noodles.

  8. You know it's time to get more RAM by ejaw5 · · Score: 5, Funny

    when a new video card has more memory than what you have in system memory

    --

    $cat /dev/random > Sig
  9. this stuff is getting crazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful
    256 MB RAM???

    My first freakin' PC had 20 meg HD.

    1. Re:this stuff is getting crazy by guacamolefoo · · Score: 4, Funny

      Here we go with the "my first PC thread"... Before long, it will certainly get to "My first PC was actually an abacus constructed by Wu Chen of the Ming Dynasty". It's almost like a geek version of reductio ad absurdum. Well, here goes with my contribution:

      256 MB RAM??? My first freakin' PC had 20 meg HD.

      My first PC had 8k of RAM and 30 min of storage (cassette-tape -- don't know how many k that was, but it wasn't much). A good old Apple ][ without a floppy drive.

      GF.

      --
      Lots of petrified grits
    2. Re:this stuff is getting crazy by Savatte · · Score: 5, Funny

      My first PC had 8k of RAM and 30 min of storage

      my first chick had 8k worth of "enhacements" and a 30 min timelimt.

  10. I really don't have a big choice between the two.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm afraid until ATI starts producing better Linux drivers, I'll have to stick with nVidia's cards for the time being. nVidia has really gotten their act in gear as of late and their latest drivers work great for me under Linux. I see on ATI's website that their drivers don't even support XFree 4.3 yet. Weeeeakk! :)

  11. You know it's time to get a new computer by geeber · · Score: 5, Funny

    When a new video card costs more than your entire system is worth.

    --
    Download my free songs!
    1. Re:You know it's time to get a new computer by afidel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Funny enough I just built a pretty decent system for significantly less then the cost of either of these cards. It's a AMD Athlon XP 2100+ based system using an SIS746 mobo, 512MB of DDR333 ram, CDRW, 400W server class case, lowend graphics card and a pair of 20GB hdd's I had laying around using software RAID1. Total cost $350, around $100 less than just these cards. Sure it can't play the latest games because it has no 3D accelerator, but that could be remedied for around $120 with a Geforce 4 Ti4200 128MB card, it would still come in at about the same cost as the cards alone.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  12. Re:I really don't have a big choice between the tw by millertime3250 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    /agree I love the linux drivers for Nvidia.

  13. decisions by DanThe1Man · · Score: 4, Funny

    Hmm, spend $500 for a video card or eat this month. Video card or food, video card or food. Hmm...

    1. Re:decisions by parliboy · · Score: 3, Funny

      Now, now, you overreact. Wal-Mart's got Ramen on special, 10 for $1.

      --
      "You're never ready, just less unprepared."
  14. Some better reviews by sjelkjd · · Score: 4, Informative

    Anandtech and Tom's Hardware are more reputable sites than the story poster mentioned. They also perform more comprehensive benchmarks, including Doom 3 and Unreal 2, at multiple resolutions, with and without anisotropic filtering. The other reviews just seem shallow by comparison.

    1. Re:Some better reviews by bobbozzo · · Score: 4, Informative

      ExtremeTech has an extensive review also.

      --
      Nothing to see here; Move along.
    2. Re:Some better reviews by afidel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You mentioned Tom's Hardware and reputable in the same paragraph and it wasn't talking about the lack thereof, for shame. (yep it's flaimbait but I have karma to burn and Tom has more bias then a CNN reporter, he just changes loyalties every so often to seem "fair and balanced")

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  15. So?! by Ignorant+Aardvark · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'm not impressed with the Radeon 9800 Pro. What I really want is the Radeon 9500 ASC. The price is steadily coming down. Mmmmm, I can't wait to play Nethack in full 3D :-)

    --
    Cyde Weys Musings - Scrutinizing the inscrutable
  16. Don't forget... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    This is using unoptimized nvidia drivers on a pre-release card. I saw benchmarks that were pulled due to NDA that showed that with the Detonator 50.xx, the NV35 chip performs SO much better than with the current drivers. I say wait, before judging the performance of NV35.

  17. under linux there are no doubts: NVIDIA rulez ... by DataShark · · Score: 4, Interesting
    closed source or not, the fact is that the NVIDIA drivers on Linux are as good or better that it's win* counterparts ...

    ATI is starting to try but has anyone tryed ATIs drivers and compared them, both fetaure-wise, performance-wise and stability-wise with the NVIdia ones ?

    so unless /. started covering HW 99% focused on MS platforms the duel is a non issue :-) Nvidia wins by K.O.under linux, and under even BSD :-) ...

  18. Nice to see by bobbozzo · · Score: 3, Funny

    Nice to see they got rid of the leaf blower that was on the 5800.

    --
    Nothing to see here; Move along.
  19. Re:I really don't have a big choice between the tw by jimbobborg · · Score: 5, Informative

    ATI's drivers were given to the X crew, they didn't commit them. Check out their archives for more info.

  20. Re:I really don't have a big choice between the tw by MarcoAtWork · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Definitely, I don't care if -any- ATI card has a 2%-5%-10% performance advantage, having absolutely great drivers from NVidia (for Linux & windows) far outweighs any small performance gains the ATI card might supposedly have.

    If the situation is like this (where the cards are pretty much neck & neck) the balance swings even farther towards buying NVidia. The only NVidia card I'd have never ever considered buying would have been the dustbuster...

    Given that I'm running an (ancient) dual p3-450 bought 3 years ago, I guess this Fall it might be time to upgrade :)

    --
    -- the cake is a lie
  21. A Question by nate+nice · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I know a Z-Buffer demands that you double the memory used so I was wondering if anyone knows if that doubles the video memory or if there is a special memory unit for hidden surface removal that the z-buffer makes use of. In this case, it would mean that you actually have 128MB of video memory and 128MB z-buffer. Anyone know?

    --
    "If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer ..."
    1. Re:A Question by Magila · · Score: 2, Informative

      Every consumer graphics card for several generations has had a unified memory arch. Everything from the z-buffer to shadder programs gets thrown in the same heap until all the onboard memory is ocupied and things start being swaped to main system memory (a situation to be avoided). And the z-buffer doesn't double memory ussage, it uses the same amount as the primary framebuffer (well, not necessarily but now-a-days it's usualy the case).

  22. Does this card need liquid nitro+fan like Nvidia? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    I just need a graphics adapter - not a hot and noisy nuclear power source.

  23. Stay behind and save money by YetAnotherName · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Whenever I've given into hype, my wallet's regretted it. But buying the current way-cool game a year-and-a-half or more later almost always guarantees it'll run just fine on my current hardware.

    There's all the free walkthroughs, hints, and cheat codes on the web by then, too.

  24. ATI Cards and Refresh Rates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I bought an 9700 All in Wonder and it produces 'waves' on any resolution under 85hz. This seems to be a common problem with the 9700 while searching for google groups. Is this common with all ATI cards?

    1. Re:ATI Cards and Refresh Rates by benzapp · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, I have observed this with my 9700 AIW. Check Rage3D and search through their forums. I didn't have any problems with mine until I got a new hard drive, reinstalled XP and decided to use Service Pack 1. All the common problems, waves, some games crashing, TV stuttering...

      A small proggie from Rage3D fixed some problems but I think I am going to have to reinstall.

      Card works fine in Redhat 9 btw, and is otherwise stable.

      --
      I don't read or respond to AC posts
  25. Re:I really don't have a big choice between the tw by Gojira+Shipi-Taro · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ATI has never wanted to trouble themselves with Drivers. Historically they have abandoned hardware as quickly as they thought they could get away with. I got bit by this back with the introduction of the "new" windows driver model. A card less than two months old was "unsupported". I made the mistake of buying an ATI PCI TV Wonder while experimenting with HTPC setups. Fortunately that one is still quite useful in Linux. ATI dropped windows support for IT over a year ago. Shortly after I purchased one NEW. The ATI Windows apps still don't work right. Every time they invoke Windows scheduler to set up a scheduled show, they GPF.

    I will never forget or forgive that blatant attempt to obsolete brand new hardware. The fact that they can't be bothered to stay current with Xfree doesn't help their case in my eyes.

    The only windows box I have left is the one that I play most of my games on. Every machine I own runs only NVidia hardware. The fact that NVidia's drivers support every piece of hardware they've made back to the original GeForce (and I think the Riva) makes me much more comfortable in investing in hardware from them.

    --
    "Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I'm fucked."; ~ Donald J. Trump
  26. Canopus by zoid.com · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I bought my first 3D card from canopus because it had 6 meg. It was the absolute best 3DFX card available. It cost around $250 at the time. It was a sweet card but within 6 months a better and cheaper card came out and I decided I would never buy the latest and greatest card again. My rule of thumb is to stay 2 generations behind the best and you will have a card that can play any game out there. This may change as soon as a DX9 game comes out but I really can't see a game company "require" anything greater than a DX7 card or they wil really linit their audience....

    --
    Zoid.com
    1. Re:Canopus by guacamolefoo · · Score: 4, Funny

      I bought my first 3D card from canopus because it had 6 meg. It was the absolute best 3DFX card available. It cost around $250 at the time. It was a sweet card but within 6 months a better and cheaper card came out and I decided I would never buy the latest and greatest card again. My rule of thumb is to stay 2 generations behind the best and you will have a card that can play any game out there. This may change as soon as a DX9 game comes out but I really can't see a game company "require" anything greater than a DX7 card or they wil really linit their audience....

      This is the cardinal rule of technology -- buy the newest and the best, only do it 12 to 18 months later. Works for lots of things -- Games, computers, HDTV, processors, cell phones, OSes, PDAs, and video cards. Heck, even cars.

      Let some other schmuck take the depreciation. Take your cue from me, and you can't go wrong. As soon as the prices come down on those swanky new 286s, I can finally get rid of my PCjr.

      GF.

      --
      Lots of petrified grits
  27. Actually, no. by voxel · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Actually, alot of times the "beta" hardware with the "beta" drivers runs FASTER than the final product.

    Hardware: The problem lies in that the "beta" hardware is carefully crafted and selected so that it lies in a very high yield of the manufacturing build. Later on, when mass production starts you have to clock things down and tone things down in general so you get a nice output yield. Otherwise you will run into the problem Nvidia already did with the 5800 Ultra, they tried to make the cards run like the "Beta" cards did, and nearly got NO cards that worked when trying to manufacture.

    Software Drivers: Beta drivers can generally run slower, usually when extra debug info is turned on. However, when drivers are going to pre-release sites, alot of times they are running as fast as they can and are even tweaked to be more unstable just to get better performance... Also tweaked to run on the "beta" hand-select hardware.

    All in all, alot of times beta hardware/software is better than the final shipments off of mass production. How much does a "Beta" board cost to make? Well, a company I worked for previously made a $150 board in mass production, but our beta development boards cost $5000.00 a piece.

    This isn't always the case though, sometimes Beta hardware is junk, clocked slow, and drivers are slowed down by debug messages... In this video idustry though, anything about to be reviewed and is "Beta" gives the company a chance to Tweak things all to hell without fear when going to mass production, because that was "Beta" performance... :)

    - Jeff

    --
    Modesty is one of life's greatest attributes
  28. you should have invested in their stock by qewl · · Score: 2, Funny

    nVidia shot up $5.39 per share to $21.37 on Friday alone when the news of the soon chip release became mainstream. That's a HUGE increase in share value for any company of that size. It's almost unheard of. I sold all my shares before today. Now I can purchase my new Radeon and still have cash leftover with the $2000 profit from only 300 shares bought a week ago for about $4500. =) The stock market kicks ass!

    --

    (\_/)
    (O.o) This is Bunny. (> <)
    1. Re:you should have invested in their stock by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah, and then at the end of the year your taxes will force you to sell off that Radeon and you'll still end up owing money. Don't count that money as free just yet...

  29. Video cards get faster... who cares anymore by acomj · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why would anyone spend 400-500$ on a video card. Unless you really NEED to be cutting edge for the next 6 month or so before the next batch comes out and the price of these cards becomes more reasonable.

    I'm not a hard core gamer. I have a Radeon something or other I got with my current machine (powermac g4). It plays wolfenstien and quake 3 great at 1024x768 with lots of eye candy on. I thnk a lot of people get way too caught up in frame rates and technical specs..

    1. Re:Video cards get faster... who cares anymore by Patoski · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why would anyone spend 400-500$ on a video card. Unless you really NEED to be cutting edge for the next 6 month or so before the next batch comes out and the price of these cards becomes more reasonable.

      You're assuming that everyone uses these cards to game on. Certainly there are lots of people and even industries who absolutely need to be on the cutting edge. One example would be animators who work for special effects companies like Industrial Light & Magic or Weta. Time is money to these companies and top flight animators don't come cheap. Paying an extra $300 for a card that's even 10% faster can mean a lot when you're constantly facing time pressures to get scenes done or trying to add one last detail to a scene. Having a card that operates 10% faster allows for 10% more eye candy in the next movie you will go see. :)

      Also, anyone who says 3d drivers in Linux is irrelevant is smoking some good stuff. The 3D effects industry is rapidly standardizing on Linux and are moving away from propietary solutions like those expensive SGI boxes. Why do you think tasty proggies like Maya and X3D have made it to Linux? It's because 3D FX houses were screaming at them to port it. The same thing (but to a lesser extent) happened with 3D drivers for Linux. 3D FX houses pay for top of the line (high margin) stuff and the folks at nVidia/ATI generally listen when those folks are all speaking with one voice. I'm certainly not saying that the 3D FX industry was single handedly responsible bringing quality 3D acceleration to Linux but it was one factor.

      --
      G. Washington on Government "it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
  30. I wouldn't hold your breath by Trepidity · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As much as I'd like that to happen, it doesn't seem very likely to happen anytime soon. Really, John Carmack singlehandedly keeps OpenGL alive; if he didn't have such a strong preference for it, DirectX would have just about all the major games out there and hardware support would be significantly worse.

    --
    10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
    1. Re:I wouldn't hold your breath by Verity_Crux · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Really, John Carmack singlehandedly keeps OpenGL alive;" Uh, anybody purchased a nice CAD program lately that uses DirectX? Or any EDA tool? Or any math tool?

    2. Re:I wouldn't hold your breath by YE · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yeah, sure, and the fact the NVIDIA do all their internal research and development via OpenGL has absolutely nothing to do with keeping OpenGL alive.

  31. Doom 3 benchs by jwdeff · · Score: 3, Informative

    Anandtech and Tom's Hardware have much better hardware reviews than that ZD reviews specified. They also have Doom 3 bench marks, which put the new NVidia card significantly ahead of the ATI counterpart.

  32. It's the other way around. by Trepidity · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Unless Linux suddenly got a bunch of new latest-generation games, the issue of Linux drivers is a non-issue. 99% of gamers use Windows to play games, even those who use Linux for everything else (hell, CmdrTaco even reboots to Windows to play games).

    --
    10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
    1. Re:It's the other way around. by Tyler+Eaves · · Score: 2, Informative

      You know, some of us *DO* use OpenGL for things other than games. (Hint: It was oringally designed by SGI for use in engineering apps)

      --
      TODO: Something witty here...
    2. Re:It's the other way around. by bogie · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yea most games are for Windows, so what? The parent said under linux Nvidia kicks ATI's ass. This of course is true and has been for a while now. For people considering a video card for linux this is a fairly important piece of information.

      So obviously for those of us who do game under linux drivers ARE an issue. So what was your point besides trolling?

      --
      If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
  33. Speed is only good if it works by swordgeek · · Score: 4, Informative

    I have had a handful of video cards since my original trident 8900. Pretty much every time I plug the card in, boot to VGA resolution, install the drivers, and reboot. Everything is done.

    I just got an ATI 9500 pro--my first ATI card. The driver installation was a five hour nightmare of crashing Windows, exception errors, hangs, and black screens. When I was done, I couldn't set the refresh rate. Nothing I did (including installing the latest drivers, and trying to use the 'secret' max. refresh setting in the ATI display controls--it wasn't there at all) could get me off of 60Hz.

    Games crashed. Windows hung. Horridness. I talked to the manufacturer, and they said it was a bad card--get an RMA, and ship it back. This I can believe.

    The problem is, I can no longer set the refresh rate on my OLD video card anymore! These damned drivers screwed up my system substantially! Removing them didn't help at all. I'm going to have to dig into the registry most likely.

    If the replacement ATI card doesn't work any better (hardware AND software), then I'll be going back to nVidia permanently, or at least for another two generations. At least their stuff works.

    --

    "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    1. Re:Speed is only good if it works by johannesg · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Let me add my own tale of woe. I got a Radeon 8500 card recently (last month). Installed it, installed the drivers from the CD, found I could not play Metal Gear Solid 2 anymore (nice when you are halfway through).

      Downloaded latest drivers from ATI. Uninstalled previous drivers, as required. Installed new drivers - setup crashes during installation. Repeat, same result.

      Filed a bug report with ATI. First they want to know everything about you, then they give you a google-eye view of their problem database. Since I reported "driver crashes during installation" I was given such gems as "Windows crashes during boot". Did that help? Hell, no it did not.

      Next page, then. Have I tried reseating the card? Rebooting Windows? Reinstalling my drivers? Thanks, wow! I'll be sure to try _that_ again. Not.

      Finally, I could enter some text which I thought would go to a person. I (once again) entered my problem report and some personal data. I click on 'send'. Almost immediately I get a reply. I look at it, expecting a "thank you for mailing us" type mail. Turns out that instead I have received that google-eye view of their problem database - again, but this time in the mail. As if they were saying "We know you are an asshole who won't take the time to read our excellent solutions, so we'll just give you the same thing twice. Maybe that'll teach you."

      There have been no other communications from ATI since then. That makes things simple for me: I won't do business with them. I have a product here that is unreliable and unsupported. I am looking to buy a new system soonish (to play Doom 3, which my current crate won't handle) and I was looking for a 9800. This episode has changed my mind: I'll get an FX. Hopefully the prices will come down a little bit. But wait, this is not yet the end...

      Browsing around on the internet I then found a way to get the driver installed anyway, by going through some obscure route. This worked! And then I found out games that previously rendered in glorious 32 bit color were now limited to 16-bit color. I tried to find a solution to that for a couple of days more, and failed miserably.

      In the end I put back my GF2. It is not fast or snazzy compared to more recent cards, but it has served me well so far. I'm also happy to report that I made good progress on Metal Gear Solid 2 since then.

      The weirdest bit: after I put back the GF2 my machine immediately rebooted back into the Detonator drivers, but when I uninstalled the ATI crap it also wiped out the NVidia drivers. Thanks, ATI. I sure appreciate that kick in the butt, and I'll be sure to remember that when I buy my next card.

  34. If you like to OC... by MoeMoe · · Score: 3, Funny

    What it comes down to isn't which one is more powerful, but which one can become the most powerful... In this case I would take nVidia since a few registry mods will open up an overclocking menu in the video properties...

    That's just one of the many "secrets" I know, let me tell you about Area 51, if you really want to fi-

    Just a sec, someone's at the door...

    --
    Business \Busi"ness\, n.;
    A scam in which all people involved perceive as beneficial...
  35. Re:I really don't have a big choice between the tw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    dude. i won't even look at the responses, because you are probably getting flamed.

    my response: forgetting about 3d (both will acceptbly play ut2003, sof, quake, etc...both wil do good opengl)

    the real problem? 2d.

    take anyone new to linux (but with xp or os-x experience) and put them on a gnome/kde desktop. their first experience just click around will be vastly different.

    1. xfree86 nv or radeon driver...the interface feels "laggy", and not quite as snappy as your typical os-x, 2k, xp desktop (all hardware being equal)

    2. using Nvidia's proprietary driver, the interface in gnome/kde just hum along, window dragging, min/maximizing etc....nvidia's driver in 2d is at LEAST TWICE AS FAST as anything xfree86 drivers can muster.In fact it's so good, it seems faster then XP or OS-X for me.

    If i'm introducing a non-techie to linux, I NEVER let them use the desktop unless i have the nvidia binary loaded....i don't want them to make their ENTIRE FIRST IMPRESSION on the basis of a laggy interface due to mediocre drivers (xfree86 itself works quite well, when in conjunction with a good driver)

    most radeons are supported by xfree86 code...therefore are subject to the same poor 2d as well.

    using a a firegl with ati/ibm drivers again proves that it's the xfree drivers that suck...as they are almost as good in 2d as nvidias.

    my point? there's a world of difference in a single driver. linux is far more appealing to your average user when it's behaving snappily using the nvdia driver.

    you might think i'm an nvidia fanboy.

    guess again.

    i own 1000 shares of atyt.

    because when it comes to chip stocks, linux is still irrelevant. the chip market is not influence by linux ...yet.

    atyt
    nvda
    amd
    intc

    have the majority of their user base in windows & macs.

  36. Re:Someone explain the math to me... by TeraCo · · Score: 2, Insightful
    At least not until you can sell the engine to other developers a few months later at a couple of hundred grand a pop, plus a percentage of royalties.

    That sounds like a great plan to me.

    --
    Not Meta-modding due to apathy.
  37. orthey could be the same since it's a unified drvr by SuperBanana · · Score: 2, Insightful
    closed source or not, the fact is that the NVIDIA drivers on Linux are as good or better that it's win* counterparts

    It's a unified driver. Has been for a LONG time. Obviously the kernel hooks etc are different for Windows versus Linux, but the rest of the code is all the same. Claiming the "linux drivers are better" is clueless linux zealotry(sp?)

    --
    Please help metamoderate.
  38. Re:Anandtech by 1000StonedMonkeys · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Tom's Hardware came to the same conclusion. Except for Splinter Cell and some synthetic benchmarks the FX 5900 was clearly the better card.

  39. You know, it's interesting... by chameleon_skin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...because I love computer games, but I haven't owned a cutting-edge video card in about five years, and if anything my gaming experience has *improved.* Why? Because ninety percent of the time games that are written to use the features of brand-spankin'-new video cards are so intent on milking the most out of the card's technology that they fail to concentrate on the most important aspect - gameplay. If a game is actually innovative, challenging, and involving, then it's still going to be enjoyable two years from now despite the fact that its graphics aren't quite up to par with the latest offerings. Because I've got a wimpy 10Mb video card, all of the games I can play on my machine are a year or two old. Sure, this means that I miss out on a lot of the online gaming experience - a lot of the multiplayer servers for a game are dead by the time I get around to playing it. But if those servers have disappeared inside of eighteen months, then how good was the game in the first place? Half-Life is pushing five years now, and there are still tons of places to play it. $450 for a freakin' video card? Sheesh. Give me a break. I'll wait until they're $100, by which time all the mediocre games will have disappeared into a much-deserved oblivion while I'll just be ready to tackle the top ten of the bunch. Sure, a year and a half is like an eon in computer gaming, but the ones that last the eons are the best anyway. Chess, anyone?

  40. Re:*my* first freakin' PC... by hdparm · · Score: 3, Funny
    There. Now lets see you young 'ums top that. :p

    Easy - I still don't own my first PC :pp

  41. Will the Real Perspecta 3D please Stand Up? by VoidEngineer · · Score: 2, Informative

    Yeah, but does either of them have 3 Gbit DDR SDRAM for 360 degree autostereoscopic 3D viewing? I think not...

    I quote the Resolution / Color / Performance / Memory specifications of the Perspecta 3D, which is available from Actuality Systems.

    - Volume comprised of 198 2-D slices (1.1 slices / degree)
    - Approximately 768 x 768 pixel slice resolution
    - 24 Hz volume refresh
    - Full color (21-bit hardware-based stippling)
    - 8 colors at highest resolution
    - Polygons / sec.: To be announced
    - Dual volume buffers
    - TI(TM) 1600 MIPS DSP high-performance embedded processor
    - 3 Gbit DDR SDRAM (100 Mvoxels x 3 colors x 2 buffers)

    Granted, there are only 8 colors available at high resolution, but it points out the fact that 3D graphics cards and monitors have a long way to go yet. I don't mean to be a troll, but I get rather pissed-off when these video card manufacturers, with their planned-obselesence, talk about their latest-and-greatest "3D" video cards. Please; these are pseudo-3D video cards; and if you've worked with a stereoscopic video system (virtual reality system) or an autostereoscopic video system (3D television system), you'll know what I mean...

    (Granted, I only got to work with this kind of technology for a couple of months in college, so I'm not an expert on this stuff... still, I know stereo3D from pseudo3D when I see it...)

  42. Who needs it? by TxdoHawk · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I picked up an Albatron Geforce Ti4200 for $149 off of NewEgg when I built my current rig, and It's eaten everything I've thrown at it for breakfast. I couldn't be happier.

    Then again, I don't feel the need to run things at 34128794x478447848 resolution with 12xFSAA and make my eyes bleed.

    When will people learn that buying top-of-the-line hardware just isn't nessecary anymore, and that you pay through the nose for it? By the time games stop running smoothly on my current rig, I can go and buy another 3d card for $150-200, mabye upgrade my processor a bit, and everything'll once again run fine and dandy. Contrast that to the person who has to always have the best, and you're talking huge amounts of money in the long run.

  43. Re:I really don't have a big choice between the tw by DarkSarin · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You obviously haven't been to their site recently. The new script will auto-update your drivers from the command line with:
    nvidia-installer --update.
    This is after you run the shell script that auto installs and updates the information. The downside is that they no longer distribute tar or rpm files. The upside is that if you don't have a standard distro, the script downloads the source and compiles it for you.
    Unfortunately you still need to hand edit you XF86Config files.

    I love the new installer though, and it's got me hooked.

    --
    "We don't know what we are doing, but we are doing it very carefully,..." Wherry, R.J. Personnel Psychology (1995)
  44. Re:Forget me not...yet. by Doktor+Memory · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Heh, screw Doom3. It'll be cool and all, but what I really, really want A3D to be resurrected for is Thief III. The Thief series just won't be the same without the fully modeled reverb effects.

    --

    News for Nerds. Stuff that Matters? Like hell.

  45. Re: Radeon vs. NVidia by AliasMoze · · Score: 5, Funny

    I see the Radeon 9800 on the shelf. I see the GeForce 5900 on the shelf. They're comparable in speed. Each supports next generation games. But I think the biggest feature, the thing that makes the choice for me, is the size of the box. That's what determines which one I steal.

  46. Back to the hertz by Bruha · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Well now it's coming down to them spewing out card after card that only nets you 5-10 FPS for each upgrade without any real performance improvements to speak of. 90% of the games played are non-fps dependent other than getting a decent rate so there's no jerkyness in movement or animations.

    It's the same deal with the rest of the computer industry. It's time to make products that work better and not require bigger and more expensive iron.

  47. No driver version specified? by MrJones · · Score: 2, Informative

    In the extremetech review, the version of the drivers used were not specified.
    What kind of review is that?
    ohh, wait, is this some of those comercial /. posts?
    ahh, now I understand why anandtech.com or tomshardware.com links were not in the original post. ;-)

    Click and learn:
    Tomshardware review
    Anandtech Review
    Nvnews review/news
    Review links

    --
    Get my e-mail after a captcha test in: http://tinymailt
  48. Hmmm... by klui · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If both cards perform relatively the same but the nVidia card takes up an extra slot, my vote would go to ATi. I get the sense ATi and nVidia would just continue to one-up the other and continue to produce products at a furious pace. Will they get enough revenue to continue with their new product release. $400, $500... $600... where will it end? Sure they can push the state-of-the art, but if less people can justify buying these expensive parts, does it matter whose product is better?

    1. Re:Hmmm... by Rothron+the+Wise · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If both cards perform relatively the same but the nVidia card takes up an extra slot, my vote would go to ATi.

      The fact that it takes two slots might annoy people, but in reality, on todays motherboards, with everything but the kitchen sink on them, there are usually far more slots than you need. Also, the first PCI slot is often unusable because it may share resources with the AGP port, and cause stability-problems.

      There is no question about the fact that NVidia stumbled with the nv30 and that ATi still holds the performance crown for available hardware. I'm still going to wait for this card for the same reason as many others: My last three cards have been NVidia, and driver stability has been exemplary. ATi is getting better, but it aint there just yet.

      The next batch of cards should make things even more exiting. ATi has yet to move to a 0.13 process and could gain a lot from that, and the design of nv30 compared to the nv35 suggest that NVidia has a lot more headroom for improving GPU and memory clockspeeds.

      I'm impressed by Carmacks ability to target a spesific level of performance on the hardware that will be available at the time his next engine ships, but this time it seems like NVidia and ATi will exceed even his expectations, with Doom3 being playable even on 1600x1200 with the latest crop of cards, and we might even see the next generation of cards out before Doom3 ships.

      --
      A witty .sig proves nothing
  49. Does Linux do Direct-X ? by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 3, Interesting



    Just a very curious question:

    Does Linux do Direct-X ?

    If Linux doesn't do Direct-X, then ....

    How can we know which one runs better under Linux ?

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
  50. how fast do you need for god's sake?? by pair-a-noyd · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I have a Gef4 Ti4200 ultra/650XP w/128m golden sample from gainward, my pc is 2ghz P4 w/512m ddr.
    I use Mandrake 9.1 and KDE 3.1
    Q3A UT2k3 runs so freaking insanely fast that I can't see ANY reason to have a faster card... Faster for what reason??
    What will I gain from it?? $500 to replace something that I think is fantastic with something that I doubt will show me anything better?? Damn, I mean now it's so fast that you can get motion sickness! And on a BIG monitor (yeah!) it 's extremely excellent.

    Oh yeah, I watched the giant trailer for the Matrix reloaded on here and it blows away ANY TV I have ever seen. If I were to get an even bigger monitor I could easily do away with my TV set and never miss it..

    I'm looking forward to playing EQ on this box in the near future and that's why I bought this card. Of course by the time I get around to installing EQ and signing up they will up the requirements and I'll be forced to shell out $500 for this monster card just to play a silly game.

    As always, I'll end up a day late and a dollar short.
    If I wait to afford this card they will advance the games some more, then make a new card for that and the vicious cycle will continue. Upgrade, upgrade, upgrade.
    And the snake eats it's tail...

    1. Re:how fast do you need for god's sake?? by Zed2K · · Score: 2, Interesting

      For you, no. But for me hell yeah. I'm still on a Geforce 2 with 64MB of memory on a 800Mhz P3. I'm looking forward to these new cards cause I'm building a new machine at the end of the summer specifically for half life 2 and doom 3.

  51. Re:Yes, but... by Sesse · · Score: 3, Informative

    Try this link -- they have later drivers, and they work quite well for me (though nVidia's offerings still are a lot more stable).

    /* Steinar */

    --
    (This comment is of course GPLed.)
  52. Gameplay Vs. graphics quality by acomj · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You miss my point.. Some games are still quite playable and fun, even if I can't play them with all the graphics features turned on.

    Gameplay quality is way more important to me than graphics quality.

    I'm not say graphics are irrelivant, I'm just wondering who spends 500$ on a graphics card, when much cheaper cards provide a good experience.

  53. Being gone, doesn't mean they were mediocre by Kjella · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Give me a break. I'll wait until they're $100, by which time all the mediocre games will have disappeared into a much- deserved oblivion while I'll just be ready to tackle the top ten of the bunch.

    Some games have a lot of replay value - but other games I find are games that are to be played once, enjoyed, then shelved, particularly single-player games. Not because they're bad, but because playing something where I already know the plot twists and the solutions to puzzles and riddles is boring. Not to mention if I had a kick-ass character and don't want to start all over from wimp after winning the game.

    Of course, some games should disappear into oblivion. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, there are good games that end up being "been there, done that".

    Kjella

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings