Slashdot Mirror
Blue-Laser DVD Formats Wars
killmore notes a story running on ZDNet talking about incompatible blue laser formats of Blue-Laser DVDs which can store 36GB of data. The new format is from Toshiba & NEC and boasts backwards compatibility with the current standards for DVDs.
which can store 36GB of date. Now I can fit my whole schedule on one dvd.
Toshiba, NEC see blue in DVD future
By Richard Shim
CNET News.com
May 12, 2003, 11:39 AM PT
URL: http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-1001033.html
Toshiba and NEC are demonstrating a new DVD recording technology that promises a significantly higher storage capacity without a major investment in new production facilities.
The Japanese companies will present details of their blue-laser format, called Advanced Optical Disc, this week at the Optical Data Storage 2003 conference in Vancouver, British Columbia. AOD is based on short-wavelength blue-violet lasers--instead of the red lasers that are now in DVD drives--to read data off of discs.
Toshiba said in a release that it has stored up to 36GB on a single-sided disc and that the technology can be applied to consumer electronics and computer products. Current Digital Video Discs hold about 4.7 GB of data.
The technology, however, is drawing a mixed response from some analysts.
"The appetite for new investments in new production lines is small right now," said Wolfgang Schlichting, research director of removable storage at research firm IDC. As a result, the claim that the blue-laser technology requires only a modest investment could resonate with manufacturers.
On the other hand, "the technology may be running too fast for end-user demand," he said. "For many, DVD is good enough."
Nevertheless, electronics companies are positioning their technologies to be leaders when (and if) consumers are ready to upgrade. Because the prices of DVD products are falling rapidly, manufacturers are looking for new technologies that could spark another round of upgrades, with higher profit margins for the hardware and media. The price of DVD drives paid by manufacturers dropped 33 percent in 2002, according to IDC.
Nine companies, including Hitachi, LG Electronics, Matsushita Electric Industrial, Pioneer, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics, Sharp, Sony and Thomson, are working on their own DVD recordable format, known as Blu-ray.
Sony previously announced a DVD recorder based on Blu-ray technology for the Japanese market, but has not commented on U.S. availability.
Toshiba and NEC are working with an industry group called the DVD Forum to gain the support of its 215 member companies.
The emergence of two blue-laser DVD recording technologies could lead to a replay of the competition surrounding red-laser DVD recordable formats--DVD+R versus DVD-R--which has caused some consumer confusion and slowed sales.
Toshiba and NEC said that their technology allows for backward compatibility with current DVD formats.
Representatives from Toshiba did not immediately return calls for comment. In previous interviews, they have said the recorders would be available next year.
when is someone going to post how to exchange the amber/yellow led on front for a blue/red led?
** "It's not my job to stand between the people talking to me, and the ones listening to me." -- Pego the Jerk
I see... I see...
VHS vs. Beta II: The Search for More Money
Mike
killmore notes a story running on ZDNet talking about incompatible blue laser formats of Blue-Laser DVDs which can store 36GB of date.
I hate it when I'm in the middle of a date and I have to swap discs...
The government's moral compass is controlled by GPS.
In times of crises, they alter it to suit their needs.
Thousands of slashbots stare at each other in bewilderment.
"What's a date?"
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Just what the DVD medium needs, more freaking standards. Heck, last time I went into my local WorstBuy to pick up a pack of DVD-RW media (only wanted a couple) all they had was rows and rows of DVW+R discs and tons of empty shelf space for the DVD-R stuff. Does this mean we're going to have to start choosing between multiple Blue standards as well? Is anybody else tired of having multiple (completely identical feature wise) discs to choose from? Is this not lunacy?
I read the internet for the articles.
Toshiba wanted dual layer and Sony (I think) wanted to standardize on flippers. Thank goodness they comprimized and kept both.
I doubt even full-screen video of every date the Slashdot community has been on would amount to 36 GB. :) ba-da-boom! hey!
stuff |
An incompatible format that boasts backwards-compatability.
Best Windows Freeware
I was all ready to fire off a clever remark about the date typo, but all the subscribers beat me to it! Damn you, /. subscription service, you're obstructing my quest for high Karma!
... has the media format standards always been divided between two non-compatable formats. Is there really any reason they cannot agree on one. Why not argue over three or four.
Beta/VHS, CD-RW/CD-RW+, mp3/wma, DVD-RW,DVD-RW+. One of them always looses big time, they ought follow in the footsteps of the W3C or IETF and make _one_ standard that makes everyone happy.
It seems as though companies align themselves along competition lines rather than going with the one with the best specification.
Who cares how much data or what data format it can store! All I want is to remove the top cover of the drive and replace it with plexiglass, mod the computer case so there's also a plexiglass so the pretty blue laser light can actually shine through the case. mmm...
Of course, this is quite expensive, unless someone can show me a blue laser that I can attach to the computer that will automatically point towards the eyes of whoever snooping over my back....
Please direct all bug reports to
> backwards compatibility with the current standards for DVDs.
What standards? I've been waiting and waiting for the "current standards" to shake out, and they still haven't. Maybe I'll be able to get a DVD burner in another 2-3 years, when they finally do have a standard!
True science means that when you re-evaluate the evidence, you re-evaluate your faith.
I already have problems with my 2-year-old son scratching my CD collection. DVDs are even MORE sensitive to scratching. As the wavelength shortens and density increases, it seems reasonable to expect the thing to be a lot more sensitive to scratching. If the format stores a disc in a cartridge, then this is not a problem. However, cartridges seem to have died out years ago.
"-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
Because if you don't, people won't buy your hardware. IBM vs. Apple, Clones vs. IBM PS/2, PlayStation 2 vs. Dreamcast, US Robotics vs. Hayes, SVHS vs. 8mm, etc.
Two imcompatible formats promising the same thing. Whatever will we do? Will one be more successful than the other? Will one drive the other to extinction? Do you think that the winner will be the most technologically sophisticated, or the cheapest and most widely-licensed?
Interesting news, but nothing I'm going to worry about. We've all weathered incompatible formats before. If you want to know which one will win, just wait a year after drives for both formats go on sale and check your Best Buy flier for the cheapest price.
There is an interesting commentary on this over at the Digital Bits. It looks like some companies don't want backwards compatibilty with today's DVD, and they want to lock down the market and prevent cheap Chinese players from entering the HD-DVD arena.
If they do that, I think that you will see HD-DVD relegated to a LaserDisc sized niche market. Only true videophiles will spend hundereds of dollars to upgrade hardware, and hundreds more to replace their DVD collection with HD discs. The rest of the population will be perfectly happy with Anamorphic Widescreen DVD on a HD set.
What they need to do is instead of bickering about my format or yours, they just need to make a open standard that anyone can use. Granted you don't make all the money of the royalties, but we all saw how quickly DVD took off. As long as there's a good reason to upgrade (HDTV compatability, extra features, etc), and there's only one standard with DVD backwards compatability, then people won't stop to think about upgrading. It'll be a no brainer as long as you have an HDTV (which someday may be commonplace).
Maybe the MPAA could actually do something useful and actually back an open, flexible, and useful standard that can be used in computers and HD-DVD players.
I'll assume you're asking an honest question (here? at slashdot? HAHAHAHA!) and give you an honest answer.
Backwards compatibility is implemented in order to not destroy the installed base of products. What good is a new DVD player that can't play existing DVDs? How many people are going to buy ANOTHER DVD player just to leave the old one in place because the new one won't play the 400 movies they already have? People already grous about having to keep a DVD player and a VCR!
As for file formats, who cares if no one else is going to use your files? If you ever want to share them with someone else then you will need to either support an existing format or distribute the needed code to use your files with them.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
seems to have died out? have you considered how many cds would need to be replaced vs. not replaced in a situation where they were all protected vs. not? It's economics.. they changed their product into something you'll replace several times over if you're an average joe. They DID initially promote CDs as indestructable. *AHEM* we all know that is very very much bs.
** "It's not my job to stand between the people talking to me, and the ones listening to me." -- Pego the Jerk
[eyelids half-shut, drool running out of corner of mouth]
Mmmmmmm....36GB should give me more than enough room to do everything I ever wanted to do on a date.
Yes, even that. Mmmmmmmmmm.
And the NEC/Toshiba thing (AOD, or Advanced Optical Disc using 0.6nm) isn't new, it's been under discussion for some time. Frankly, they have the better system as it applies to DVD-Video, since it fits well in the current fabrication process. It admittedly has a lower storage capacity than Blu-Ray, but it's not significant and with a recent dual layer announcement from NEC/Toshiba, there should be no reason an HD movie would not fit on a single AOD platter.
So for now, unless the 0.1nm group (Blu-Ray) gets going, they're going to get shut out of the DVD-Video NG spec (not that they have a significant chance anyhow, due to startup costs.)
-David
* As is generally the case, my opinions do not reflect those of my employer.
special edition dvds? How is Peter Jackson supposed to sell two versions of the same movie two times only four months apart if they're both the same number of discs?
all this high capacity crap is all fun and good but in the fast pace world that i live in (audio and video) i need to make backups quick, and if i have to wait 4 to 6 hours to burn 36GB then this will not help me
I have noticed lately that many of the companies that were DVD+RW "supporters" are now offering DVD-RW drives either separately or in Desktop\Notebook computers. Sony, TDK & HP all of which are listed as DVD+RW supporters have DVD-RW offerings. I wonder if they are starting to quietly shift formats. I also saw that the first "Blue Laser" product from Sony in only backwards compatible with -RW and not +RW.
http://www.kubuntu.org/
That's probably true assuming the same format. But if they wanted, it would be smart to take advantage of that huge capacity by increasing the error-checking redundancy. That way you could take a belt sander to the damned thing and still maybe read it. Well, maybe not quite...but you get the idea.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
In the interest of compromise and back compatability, do you think we can merge the red and blue technologies for something more purplish? That way, everyone's happy!
If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
...which can be mounted on the top of a shark!
So this means DVD-R, DVD+R, Blue1DVD-R, Blue1DVD+R, Blue2DVD-R, Blue2DVD+R?
What exactly -is- the difference between +/-R, anyway? Same question for the two blue 'standards'?
Please help metamoderate.
There is one non-backward compatible change I'd like to see embraced: put the optical media in a _thin_ cartridge.
:(
I believe blue-ray is such, but from what I read blue-ray is not really meant as the next-gen DVD format, mostly as a format for recorders and computers. And one of the reason cited is the cartridge
I would prefer a format where the media is protected better than current CDs and DVDs. A format that could be grabbed by a reader more reliably than the current (cf. slot-loading readers on Mac). I don't understand why so many seem opposed to such a change. Maybe some people imagine something similar to the old CD caddies, where you had to place the regular format in a cartridge. I rather imagine a format that is always enclosed in a cartridge, like the 3 1/2" floppies.
Conspiracy theory: RIAA/MPAA execs don't want this to happen, as they know more people would lend their CDs/DVDs to friends if the media was made more resistant to abuse.
For the record: I don't believe that for a second.
However, cartridges seem to have died out years ago.
The Blu-Ray format uses cartridges which hold the discs. It's the main reason I hope it wins out.
"...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
I had a crazy idea this morning.
Why can't they make a "generic" optical disc that can be written in any format (CD, DVD-R, DVD+R, etc) up to whatever the granularity of the dye is?
I know its probably a dumb question, but it seems like there's no reason I shouldn't be able to write a CD-R format disc onto a DVD-R, at least in terms of pit density.
...Heck, they can't even get reasonable interoperability with CD media.
Everyone has all these superstitions and voodoo about which dye colors and media types and brands and what speed to record at, and the plain fact is that it is not at all rare to find that a CD you've burned in a pretty-darn-new burner can't be read in someone else's pretty-darn-new drive. Either the standards are no good or the manufacturers aren't following them.
And it was only a few months ago that it transpired that you could burn out the laser in a LOT of DVD-RW drives simply by inserting a new kind of medium (4X, maybe?) that was, of course, SUPPOSED to be backward compatible with the old one--and was, except for the minor detail of destroying drives.
And wasn't it HP that promised that their DVD-RW drives would be compatible with DVD+RW media via a firmware upgrade... and then reneged on the promise?
What a zoo.
Isn't it about time to quit dicking around and set some standards for some reasonable kind of high-capacity medium that gives you some assurance that the data you store today can be read on a different drive tomorrow?
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
IMHO this reads: " We are too poor right now to do much else than sell what we have and try not to go bankrupt. "
It is sad that possibly some great ideas in IT are escaping. It is difficult to be innovative when a great mind is in fear of being dismissed, downsized, and laid off due to our current economy.
Harpo Tunnel Syndrome--my wrist feels funny.
The development of the "blue" (Really violet) laser diode has taken TREMENDOUS effort over the last 3-4 years. (Read up on it some time it's pretty interesting) Yes, it was mostly all done (though not ALL) in asian countries. The US can't (and shouldn't) be the leader of ALL tech you know.
I don't know why a blue dvd recorder HAS to be revolutionary to be news-worthy, It is evolutionary and it is news-worthy, therefore it's in the news.
"Holographic" storage has been talked about and played with incessently for almost a decade now. If it were practical, something would have been done with it by now. But the much simpler CD/DVD optical disk technology has progressed with sufficient speed and capacity to warrent more complex solutions completely unneccesary.
Contrary to popular belief, coding is not all free blow-jobs and beer. Those things cost MONEY!
I want sharks with frikkin blue lasers
AOD or BluRay ?
Easy choice- "BluRay" sounds a billion times cooler.
Like what is "AOD"? "Attack of the DMCA"?
Pfff.
graspee
Both those sites have excellent reviews of players, media, writers, CODECs, conversions and everything in between.
We needed this technology yesterday!