MSN Client for Mac OS X

DrJonesAC2 writes "MSN has released its software client for Mac OS X today. This software functions just like the PC version with a few exceptions (like chat and money). This software launch has its glitches, however; you cannot download it from Microsoft's Mac site you need to go here to get it."

Comments

Does anyone care?

[osxuser-02]

Seems kinda strange to use MSN on a Mac. There are plenty of ISP options for Mac which would be either cheaper, or have more options for Mac users. Why have MSN if it's a crippled version?

Re:Does anyone care?

[goombah99]

yes, Because QWEST provides dsl via MSN, so its natural to be part of MSN.

Setting aside issues about the evil empire, Microsoft products on mac frequently dont suck. (e.g. look at office) or at least they dont suck as bad like they do on windows platforms. Microsoft's mac unit often puts the rest of the comany to shame.

Re:Does anyone care?

[MoCycleGeek]

There are some companies who use MSN for their off-site dialup access (Don't ask my why when there are cheaper alternatives).

With MSN for OSX the folks at those companies can use the 'approved' access method insted of having to poney up for their own dialup access. Esp helpful these days when most of the people I work with don't have their own dialup accounts anymore becuase they have switched to DSL/Cable at home for their Internet access.

Re:Does anyone care?

[osxuser-02]

You don't have to use MSN broadband with Qwest. I have DSL thru Qwest and use a third-party ISP (4dv.net). Not so much for the anti-M$ reasons, but because I get more features. MSN DSL still won't let you use gameservers or set up your own webserver.

Re:Does anyone care?

[koehn]

I have Qwest, but they're my DSL provider, not my ISP. Being in the Twin Cities, I use visi.com, and they've been great to work with (no, I don't work for visi, etc., I'm just a satisfied customer).

That said, Qwest has done a good job keeping my DSL connection to visi.com running almost continuously for three years.

So I won't be using MSN for Mac OS X any time soon either.

Re:Does anyone care?

[davebo]

look at office

Hi, I see you've never used Powerpoint before.

Re:Does anyone care?

[MrTangent]

I agree in principle but more choice is a Good Thing? for the Macintosh platform.

Re:Does anyone care?

[hmccabe]

What kind of gameservers can't you do with MSN DSL? I can see (to an extent) not allowing hosting gameservers, but with XBox Live they have an interest in seeing people play games online.

Re:Does anyone care?

[sg3000]

> Microsoft products on Mac frequently don't suck

Shows the value of competition. Microsoft has to work as hard at the Mac market as any other software maker, so they're forced to compete. As a result, Office v.X was one of the first carbonized Mac applications (and used quite a few Mac OS X-specific features). Entourage is cool, Excel is really cool on the Mac, Word is okay, and PowerPoint is well ... tolerable. But they're obviously trying.

MSN for OSX. is released...

[coldwd]

One word:

woopideedoo

What's MSN?

[joto]

I thought it was a TV-channel of some kind. Or maybe some website. Oh no, now I remember, it was that extra icon that came with Windows 98 nobody used... Is that the client that is now ported to Mac OS X? I guess they'll be raving about it then... Lucky mac-users...

Re:What's MSN?

[redtail1]

Microsoft Shopping Network, isn't it?

Re:What's MSN?

[pb]

I just assumed it had something to do with their instant messaging service, you know, err... MSN... Messenger. (or is it .NET Messenger? Windows Messenger? Something...)

Re:What's MSN?

[Anonymous Coward]

I used it in Windows 98. It is used to show people how to delete things in Windows.

microsoft?

[bobba22]

Not having any MS software on my computer makes me feel a bit less "big-brothered". Apple provides me with useful tools for what I need to work/play. If MSN is what I think it is, I'm not sure they haven't been wasting their time as the target audience is certainly going to be a lot more clued-in than the general wintel user. I think people use apple to escape from products like MSN and .net. OS X is rapidy approaching the point where a virtual PC or MS software in general just isn't needed. Thanks, but no thanks.

Re:microsoft?

[mrpuffypants]

bib brother be damned. Microsoft Office for Mac OS X is great software hands down. I'd use good software even if it was called John Ashcroft's Super AIM SpySuite.

Re:Dear Apple

[chasingporsches]

for the love of god, could you be any more flamebait? i know there's free speech and everything, but you don't have to talk about (a) people's lifestyles and (b) the greatest computers on this side of the universe... i mean, come on. that was inappropriate.

Important development

[rumpledstiltskin]

This is actually an important development, considering that OS X has a BSD core. MS is developing products that will interface with that operating system. Maybe this could be a step in the direction of developing applications for the OSS community. Mod this down as a troll if you'd like, but despite the heavy anti-MS rhetoric here on slashdot, MS does employ some of the best coders around. Having such a heavy player develop applications for free OS's could only help them become more accepted and mainstream.

Re:Important development

[cmoney]

Yes, but it's very easy to produce an OS X app that doesn't have anything to do with BSD. So MS producing an OS X app in and of itself shows no bearing on whether they'll be producing BSD (or OSS) apps in the future.

Re:Important development

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, boy. No, you're not a troll, but you are WOEFULLY underinformed.

Think of OS X as "UNIX plus." Okay? (Yes, this post sounds almost exactly like one from yesterday. That's because it's important enough to bear repeating.)

OS X has most of the application environments that are traditional in UNIX-based operating systems: the BSD environment (which includes libc and the other standard libraries) and X. (X is an optional install, but it's just a download from Apple.) It also includes things like OpenGL that are often found on UNIX-based operating systems.

OS X also includes Carbon, which is basically the Macintosh Toolbox with a few changes.

OS X also includes Classic, which is a VM that is essentially Mac OS 9.

OS X also includes Cocoa, which is basically NeXTstep.

OS X also includes the Java environment, including Swing.

A program for OS X can be written to run in ANY of these operating environments: BSD/X, Carbon, Classic, Cocoa, Java. (You can even mix and match them inside your application.)

Now, if an OS X application is written just for BSD or BSD+X, then it will easily port to another UNIX-based operating system that provides the same basic environment, like Linux or whatever.

However, nobody writes OS X software just for BSD or BSD+X, because the other environments are all drastically superior. And if a program is written for Carbon or Classic, then it can't be ported to anything other than a Mac. If a program is written for Cocoa, then it MIGHT be possible to port it back to NeXTstep or OpenStep or GNUstep, but only if it's a very simple program.

A Java program, of course, can run on any Java VM.

So what does all this mean? It means that when you say things like, "MS is developing products that will interface with that operating system. Maybe this could be a step in the direction of developing applications for the OSS community," you end up sounding like an idiot. Because software written for OS X has no more of a relationship with UNIX than software that was written for Windows, or for the original Mac OS.

Mac OS X is far more interesting and complicated than you realize.

Re:Important development

[i0wnzj005uck4]

"MS does employ some of the best coders around."

... which is the reason, I guess, that MS Project is such a joy to use? That we can now be thankful that when Word crashes now it saves a useful recovery document 50% of the time? That Word:Mac v.X is the only non-beta program under OSX that crashes on me more than once a month? (Yes, that's more than the Safari Beta, with Word:Mac at a crash per 7 uses or so.) That Longhorn, scheduled to arrive in 2005, will be implementing features from OSX from 2001, like using a 3D accelerator as a 2D compositing engine, and calling them revolutionary?

I'm an IT guy for a medical company. I spend 90% of my time helping my colleagues work around bugs in Office and related applications. I can't tell you the number of times someone has come to me flustered because their formatting was eaten after deleting a single line, or resizing a table. And is it just me, or did page numbering get more retarded in Office 2K2? Edits not done to sections or page breaks or the header/footer change the numbering? WTF?!

I won't even get into issues of workflow and UI design, aside from saying that Microsoft shot itself in the foot by making the workflow of Word:Mac a thousand times better than Word PC 2K2.

If Microsoft really does have genious coders working for it, they've yet to produce code to their potential.

Re:Important development

[pudge]

Considering that many of my programs work on both Mac OS and Mac OS X, there's no reason to think that MSN for Mac OS X interfaces directly with BSD. Microsoft has lots of Mac products, and most of them don't touch BSD directly (or if they do, only minimally), but instead go through the same old Mac API they have always gone through (i.e., Carbon).

Re:Important development

[sporty]

Just to add fuel to your correct point.... it, MSN is written for the Mach kernel that Apple has closed sourced, no? The BSD aspect is the subsystem, all those nifty tools.

Carbon and Cocoa (mmmm) are also closed sourced. They have nothing to do with X11.

Re:Important development

[Anonymous Coward]

Aha my trollish friend, fool me once, shame on you....

Re:Important development

[drunkenbatman]

This is actually an important development, considering that OS X has a BSD core. MS is developing products that will interface with that operating system. Maybe this could be a step in the direction of developing applications for the OSS community. Mod this down as a troll if you'd like, but despite the heavy anti-MS rhetoric here on slashdot, MS does employ some of the best coders around. Having such a heavy player develop applications for free OS's could only help them become more accepted and mainstream.

MS might be thinking about developing for open-source, but releasing MSN for OSX isn't a hint of things to come. It's a common misperception that OSX=freebsd. OSX is based on Darwin, and Darwin is essentially Mach running a freeBSD layer for filesystem, threading, etc- along with quartz for GUI and carbon and cocoa for API's.

The big hitch is carbon and cocoa- neither API's exist on linux, although there is an open source group trying to make one for x86. The code is built on those API's... so without those API's, you don't have much.

IE, if the mac didn't have a ported xwindows environment, they're not going to be able to run stuff written with xwindows API's. They could run apache... but not the xwindows apps. Linux couldn't run Cocoa or Carbon apps as they don't have the Cocoa and Carbon API's and I doubt they'll see them any time soon.

Michael Bryan Bell

Re:Important development

[andrewski]

Actually, you can download everything but Carbon and Cocoa essentially, in an open source distribution approved by Richard Stallman his very self, and run another implementation of the Openstep standard, which OS X is an implementation of, called GNUstep, and write programs that will compile fine on each one.

So, I guess I just added some chemical flame retardant to the 'fuel' you added to the other comment. Enjoy.

Re:Important development

[sporty]

Nope, you really can't. They aren't source comptabale :) Try again. Light flame. tssssssss

The API's have different names. Openstep was the base :)

Re:Important development

[andrewski]

For most of the APIs the names are the same. The drawing and OpenGL and Carbon (bleargh!) APIs, along with Quicktime and AudioUnits are the different ones. Most applications would be quite portable between the two. And with NextStep as well, as I know from having a FreeBSD GNUstep box, a PA/RISC system running NS 3.3 and my TiG4.

Porting apps is quite trivial if portability is considered as a design factor.

The beginning of the end

[Enrico Pulatzo]

for MSIE, that is. I can't remember where I read it (and if I'm making it up, I get credit for calling it first ;), but MS is supposedly replacing IE with MSN Explorer for your internet exploring needs.

Pay Service?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've used MSN explorer on a PC before with my free hotmail account, i was just curious as to what it was on my mac but it seams you need to pay to even use the software. Blah, going to the trash.

Time to play with my new iPod...

-Eric

Re:Pay Service?

[Mazzaroth]

Yup, you need to pay! During the installation procedure, you must select one of the following options:

Annual plan: 79.95

Monthly plan :9.95 per month, first two months free than automatically charged

Narrowband unlimited acces: first month free then 21.95 per month.

Worst, when you are at this page, you can only select one of the presented paying option and continue. There is no turning back (reminds me a marketting strategy...). You can only quit the installation using the X - THEN you are asked if you really want to quit. But even if you quit, it leaves the MSN butterfly icon in the dock.
And God only knows what it did with my admin password!

Which browser does it embed?

[pmsyyz]

Does anyone know which browser engine this uses? Can someone with it installed get and post the user agent?

I guess it could use the version of IE that comes with all versions of OS X.

Does this come with popup blocking like the new version of AOL that saw my parents using?

Re:Which browser does it embed?

[Dragonfly]

The MSN client is the browser. Which means that there's yet another browser out there to worry about when designing pages. Sigh...

Re:Which browser does it embed?

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Nothing to worry about though. It's just IE with a different GUI.

Re:Which browser does it embed?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well My OpenSource Mambo admin controls work fine in IE 5 , Moz, Safari, but not MSN Ver 2 errrr whatever it is.
Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; PPC Mac OS X 10.2.6; Tasman 0.9; MSN 8.0; MSN Explorer 2.0; MSNbMSN; MSNmen-us; MSNc11)

Re:Which browser does it embed?

[pmsyyz]

Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; PPC Mac OS X 10.2.6; Tasman 0.9; MSN 8.0; MSN Explorer 2.0; MSNbMSN; MSNmen-us; MSNc11)

Wow, even longer than most Gecko user agents: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030513 Mozilla Firebird/0.6

Thanks. So the answer is Tasman, the Mac IE engine. But 0.9? Either the Mac IE team didn't think Tasman never was 1.0 material or the MSN people forked it earlier. The former I think considering how long it has been out. Maybe the version of Tasman in the current Mac IE (5.12 I think) is even lower than 0.9. It is strange that it calls itself MSIE 6.0 though.

Re:Which browser does it embed?

[nagha]

If Microsoft upgraded IE or used Safari, I could see a lot of people using MSN... it's actually better than AOL. Unfortunately, they've chosen to neglect IE on the Mac for some bizarre reason (read: Safari). Why they've chosen not to use Safari is beyond me. Their need to control the browser market must override the need to make MSN profitable.

na

Re:Which browser does it embed?

[SiMac]

I suspect that Tasman 0.9 is newer than the version in IE 5.2.1. According to CodeBitch's latest article, she's already seen a new version of IE in the logs, and the version in MSN Explorer for Mac is the same as the version that will be in the next IE.

I've been waiting to switch...

[heldlikesound]

...to OSX, but this was the one killer app I needed!

Re:I've been waiting to switch...

[RiverTonic]

I'm still waiting for the official microsoft port of MineSweeper(C). Anyone knows if it exists?

Re:Dear Apple

[chasingporsches]

since we've all been modded -1 anyways, i'll go ahead and explain myself. (this is way, way offtopic lol) i have a very "laissez faire" opinion on the gay matter. i don't agree with it, but i'll let it be as long as they don't mess with me. if they want to be gay, let them be gay. as long as nothing is imposed on me. and yes, i do regard it as moral abomination, but lifestyle is more politically correct. i just dont want to piss anyone off. apparently i pissed off the modders tho, lol

Re:Dear Apple

[TheRaven64]

That's because the bible clearly states 'A man shall not lie with a man as a man lies with a woman' (actually I was under the impression that a 180 degree rotation takes place, but I digress). It's in Leviticus. I suggest you read it. It's on the same page as the bit about not eating shellfish or animals with cloven hooves.

Ha, who says the bible isn't relevant? (Actually is it quite funny to point at your gay christian friends and say 'Haha! You eat shellfish! You're going to hell!' Okay, so it's not funny, but it seems like it is when you're drunk...)

Disclaimer: I am not a Christian, though I have read the Bible. I am not Muslim, though I have read the Qur'an (well, technically an English 'interpretation' of the Qur'an). I do not descriminate against any one religion, I discriminate against all of them. Equally. If you are a religious person who can't take having a little fun poked at their faith, I suggest you go and live in a box and never interact with the world again. Air holes on said box are optional.

Re:Dear Apple

[TheRaven64]

Actually, I think he's right. Most people DO think that homosexuality is a moral abomination.

Actually, I think a lot of people just see homosexuality as a way of eliminating some of the competition (and have you noticed how many girls seem to think that it's exactly the bit of the competition you want eliminated that manages to be gay?)

Souped Uped Moped?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Souped uped that Camaro yet?"

Whatped didped thatped meanped?

Not Mac specific...

[hexdcml]

Has anyone noticed this particular instruction?

To download: Click the Download link to start the download. Do one of the following:

To start the installation immediately, click Open or Run this program from its current location.

To copy the download to your computer for installation at a later time, click Save or Save this program to disk.

Isn't that a PC/IE trait? My IE for mac never used to give me that, nor Safari.

Hmm, just thought I'd bring that to light.

Broadband Access

[svenjob]

The one thing that MSN lacks is TCP/IP based broadband access on a pre-existing service (cable modem or DSL). AOL has it. Let's say you have a cable modem and want to try MSN. Too bad, you can't unless you have a modem. Not true for AOL. If they add that feature and then possibly charge a lower monthly fee for that kind of access, I feel they would attract a much larger audience (read: parents who already have cable modem or DSL). I know of 5 families who got hooked on AOL even though they already had cable modem. Go figure...

Re:Broadband Access

[Anonymous Coward]

Well MSN Does indeed offer broadband version of MSN for OS X, for 9.95 a month TCP/IP based broadband access on a pre-existing service (cable modem or DSL).

Re:Broadband Access

[svenjob]

I did not know this... Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

Re:Broadband Access

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, they do. I signed up to try it out for a review I have to write and that's the package I signed up with. AOL calls it "bring your own access" -- but this is the same deal exactly. You can run MSN over an existing TCP/IP connection (broadband, dial-up, alien telepathic connection, whatever...) works like a charm.

Re:Broadband Access

[nosaj72]

Do your homework

Re:Dear Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

This troll is posted in almost every Apple thread. Take no heed.

Re:Dear Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, you only read the "English interpretation" of the Bible as well. But I agree with what you say. In fact, I was a Christian until I started to read the Bible. :)

define irony

[branchstudios]

Isn't frustration with MS one of the reasons most people move to Mac/Linux?

I just can't see all those Mac users saying "mmm... finally, secure computing!"

Re:Dear Apple

[BandwidthHog]

That's always been my philosophy. I see a good-looking gay man, I'm a happy puppy. I figure the really attractive ones are equivalent (in RIAA math) to eliminating three average males from the dating pool.

Version number wierdness

[Millennium]

OK, so I'm installing this thing, because I want to see what improvements -if any- they've made to the standards support of the once-great Tasman engine.

What's this version 2.0.0 bit, though? I mean, if it's the first release, then how can it possibly be 2.0?

So, then...

[Millennium]

It seems that the MSN software isn't free. To use it, you have to essentially rent it from MSN for $10/month.

Anyone remember when they made Internet Explorer free, to price-gouge the competition out of the market? Now we see why: no longer fearing competition, they're charging again. Highly uncool, no?

You have to go here...

[MrTangent]

"you cannot download it from Microsoft's Mac site you need to go here to get it."

Funny, I thought you had to go to hell to get any of Microsoft's software.

power point. its just works. on a mac that is.

[Anonymous Coward]

power point on a mac is better imho than power point on a windows box (fewer surpises with formats, missing fonts etc...). It works relaibly and is workman like. Most importantly its highly exchangable with colleagues. So yeah I find power point pretty good on the usability scale. I own keynote too.

the best part really however is that when I go to plug it into a projector the mac does not humiliate me: my windows bound colleagues always have to ask some one in th audience to rescue them because the screen is the wrong resolution or upside down or just missing.

its not as pretty a keynote but its relaible and that's what counts in a presentation. cant say the same for linux look-alikes.

power point. its just works. on a mac that is.

Actually...

[douglasq]

Satisfaction with the Mac OS is why Mac users never move to Windows. I cannot speak for Linux users.

Re:Actually...

[tedrlord]

I actually moved to Windows for a while because I disliked MacOS 8 and 9 so much. Of course, I stopped using Windows after about 6 months when I set up Linux, but the point stands. MacOS X looks pretty neat, but I'm pretty much entrenched in my old Linux system by now. I still love MacOS 7, though. I used a Mac IIsi for about five years, and if it were able to decently run any software these days, I'd still have it up.

But...but, I LIKE lobster and bacon!

[douglasq]

Does that mean I'm going to hell?

Re:But...but, I LIKE lobster and bacon!

[Anonymous Coward]

No, but you might be less healthy.

Ummmm...okay...

[rockforever]

don't see where the news is. So okay, now there's a MSN client I won't use on OS X, just as there's a MSN client I won't use on Windows. Have a nice day.

Re:power point. its just works. on a mac that is.

[davebo]

So, in one sense, I might be inclined to agree with you - many of my problems with Powerpoint have come when I've tried to move a file created on my Mac to a PC. There's always formatting mistakes, missing pictures, etc. And WinPP has crashed on me (from Office 2K) far more often than MacPP (from Office X). And like you have experienced my coworkers usually fumble around 5-10 minutes getting their Win2K laptops to display something, anything on the projector for talks.

However . . . the performance of MacPP is not good. Slow redraws. Slow moves of pictures. Unexplainable 15-20 sec delays once a file is open & visible for editing actions to be possible. Pictures that look fine on-screen but jaggy has hell when printed. These sorts of things (for me, on this mac) haven't happened in Keynote. Not to mention the occasional "gee, this slide just became 1"x0.5" after I had played with the zoom, and it keeps setting itself back to this size no matter what I try.

A note to Microsoft

[yorkrj]

My Apple squashed your butterfly. Get over it!

Re:Dear Apple

[coolmacdude]

This guy posts this same BS in just about every Apple story. One of the reasons I started browsing at +1.

Re:Dear Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

dumb fuck

Butterfly

[Erik K. Veland]

Funny thing that they chose to use a Butterfly as it's icon as it's essentially a bug.