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Computing's Lost Allure
khendron writes "An article in the New York Times, describes how the number of students majoring in computer science in university has dropped off with the rest of the hi-tech economy. The bright side: the students who are enrolling are doing so because they love computers. Not like a few years ago when students were enrolling because they wanted to make a quick buck. I'll take quality over quantity."
"I'll take quality over quantity."
:)
Amen. When I graduated in 2000 there were more than a few people in the degree for the money. They were miserable and barely got through as it was.
Hoefully this will also cut down on the number of people doing "can not fail" certification courses. I've always found these things insulting. Along with job ads that reuire MCSE's to even apply..for unix admin jobs, or janitors!
Never trust a computer proffesional that doesnt list computer as a hobby.
"Enlightenment is your ego's biggest disappointment." --Yoginanda
I was talking to someone yesterday and mentioned I was going back to school, he asked if I was going back to gain some extra computer knowledge. I told him I decided upon a job in computers because as I was growing up, I loved them, but now as I have a job in the computer field, I just don't have the love I used to.
In the past few months I've been rethinking my career path, and I've decided to go back to school. This time around I've decided to learn what I love, instead of what I thought I would love.
Mike
But there are:
(a) Many people who like computers that suck at working with them;
(b) Many people who don't particularly like computers that don't suck at working with them;
(c) Still a hell of a lot of people who have no business looking at jobs in the IT industry that are working their ass off trying to get on.
Oh, the sad state of this world I live in...
A friend of mine is in CS, because he loves computers and he loves programming. He isn't any good at it though, he's failed freshman intro classes, and not because he doesn't try. His eyes glaze over when he asks me for help and I start asking him why he's doing so-and-so when he could be doing this-and-that.
In short, people should do the things they love, but it doesn't mean quality when they do it.
Now we just need a dropoff in the amount of people that take 6 weeks worth of classes and think they are "certified".
Maybe then my resume won't get lost in the mile high stack of useless ones.
Maybe you should educate the morons of tomorrow so they'll stop believing the leaders of tomorrow. - Dogbert
Well the fact that they are passionate about computers is a good thing. The only thing I don't like is the emphasis on .net and soap, ect in schools. Just the other day I heard that the programers in my company are going to upgrade every piece of software to be .net compatable and all data entry software will be soap based. I slapped my self in the forehead! I certianly hope that some of those purebloods will go to some schools that don't push out microsoft robots.
Insert Witty Remark Here ===>____________________________
that was a major reason that I left the CS program at BGSU. I felt that it was behind the times and boring. Other people I knew who were going to schools like MIT and Bucknell were learning Java and Scheme (MIT obviously) and were doing interesting coding projects I was stuck writing "grading programs for 10 students in Ms. Smith's 8th Grade Math Class".
;)
I saw the need to learn the fundamentals of C/C++ but I didn't think that boring projects were the way to accomplish that.
Nothing like being forced to learn a non-existant version of ASM that was created by BGSU for teaching purposes. It was SO out-dated and worthless that I couldn't take it anymore.
I have since graduated with an equally worthless degree in History. At least writing papers about things that happened 300+ years ago is useful
I don't see the current trend toward off-shoring programming jobs slowing down in the future -- rather, I foresee an acceleration as tools and processes for performing overseas work improve. Consider how poorly the American car, steel and manufacturing industries are doing, and remember that they (unlike software development) are at least protected by tariffs which level the playing field somewhat.
Sure, there will always be some development and QA jobs in the US if for nothing else than to avoid "all your base"-style situations. But that's going to provide a fraction of a percent of the jobs that even our currently depressed industry does.
If you *do* get a CS degree, you'd better plan on grad school. You're going to need an advanced degree or at least a double major to tread water (I imagine that business/CS will be in huge demand).
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Knowing your way around a computer is such an essential business skill now.
Every kid in college, no matter his or her major, should know how to get around an Office suite, put into place a simple web site, and basic troubleshooting.
We're seeing the evolution of computer-technology-as-business-model into computer-technology-as-tool.
While it may be true that fewer kids are going into CS, what's also true is that the technology is penetrating deeper into the business school, journalism school, whererver where many things that were once the realm of CS or even MIS are now absorbed within a discipline that focuses on the application of that technology.
That's what I did, before the internet boom, and I graduated in the middle of the internet boom... *not* taking advantage of it and just looking for a stable job. Which I still have, right now.... (Just got a raise, so I am not to complain).
Yes, I chose Computer Science because I love computers, I love programming and I discovered that I loved the math and theory behind all of it. (Because, boys 'n girls.... Computer Science doesn't end at being a good coder)
Apart from that I have to quote the article:
People aren't seeing the glory in computer science that they used to.
I think that is false: there never has *been* glory in Computer Science. Not even in the dot-com boom. No, *technology* was glorified, not the science.
Anyways: do what you like. That's the only advice I can give. (Oh, and to my surprise I read in the article that there are more girls doing CS now! Damn, I wish I was younger and back at University *grin*)
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
Just as you don't want students opting for Medicine just because it pays well, (which it does no doubt), but rather because they are interested in human anatomy.
Same with any other field say architecture, engineering etc. Once the field has students , who are genuinely interested in the subject, there would be lot moro of innovative products and hopefully a lot less Service Packs :-)
for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
I knew a girl in my CS program who was double majoring between A&S Modern Feminist Studies and Engineering Computer Science. Why? Because her parents wouldn't help her financially with college unless she majored in "something that can get [her] a real job." She hated CS, but didn't want to shell out the $$$/get loans for a top 30 school private education. Ooops.
"...dropped off with the rest of the hi-tech economy"
Interesting the way that was worded. It's as if to say, something different happened to hi-tech than happened to the rest of the economy when the reality is that ALL segments of the economy have fallen off. No segment is hiring right now. None.
The WSJ just had an article last week about MBAs not getting offers at all right now.
This post will probably be modded down into oblivion, but: I am the manager of the human resources department for a semi-small development company. Part of our jobs in HR is to screen many, many applicants... essentially pick out the top 5% to move on to further interviews. Believe it or not, we've actually had more luck hiring electrical and computer engineers than computer scientists or software engineers. What we've observed with the latter candidates is that they know the "science" of programming, such how fast a certain sort algorithm should run, but they are often poorly versed in the "application" of the algorithms. (The engineers are often just the opposite). I've found that engineers are people who are trained to work practically... they might not always come up with the absolute best solution, but the solution they do come up with is usually PDG (pretty darn good) and they come up with it quickly. They don't worry so much about squeezing every last bit of peformance out of an input prompt, or beautifying their code, like CS majors do. In general, our electrical and computer engineers are much more productive, and we've started turning more and more towards them to look for promising candidates. Which makes me wonder... is it time for a new major that deals with "practical" aspects of programming? Or do the CS and SE curricula need to gutted and re-done?
Just my two cents...
just 350 students signed up for the course this spring, in striking contrast to enrollment in the fall of 2000, when the same lecture hall was engorged at the start of the semester with 700 students
Would that be an unfair comparison given that more people register every year during the fall compared to Spring ?
Siggy Say, Siggy Do
I'm 24 and have been infatuated with computers since I can remember. I really feel as if I'm part of the tail end of the last generation that's going to have such a love affair with technology. Even to me now, the tech field is almost unbearable. All of the mystery is gone and it's been replaced with lowest common denominator corporate tripe. The pc now, is little more than a glorified vcr. Built to feed you aol/tw content. Forget working in the tech field as well. Why put up with the disrespect you'll get from burned out frat boy wannabe managers? Why work to throw out 90% of what you do? Why try to do a good job when no one cares if you do? Just because you enjoy a field that is rapidly becoming less enjoyable doesn't mean that you should enslave yourself in it's name.
Unfortunately, in this job market, employers don't seem to get it in terms of their hiring.
I have both an undergraduate and graduate degree from a top CS school, and am currently one of the hordes looking for work. It seems that, even though less people are currently in CS programs, the employers out there still requires more and more specifically-defined "real world" skills (eg, "Oracle 11 PL/SQL" vs. just "database programming experience") and if you don't have such experience, you aren't even considered for an interview.
CS programs (rightfully) don't focus on specific products and languages, but rather on theory... but it seems that even with such solid academic grounding, people want real experience, or else.
Employers, just like employees should wake up and realize that specific skills can be often taught quickly on the job by reading a good reference book, or looking at existing code -- thinking and theoretical know-how is harder.
I hope you speak Hindi.
Hammer of Truth
At my little state university my mathematics classes are full of apathetic ex CS majors. Most think that they can just sail through a mathematics major and land a low paying but safe teaching job. However many start to fall off when they get to the upperdivision classes where being a calculating machine doesn't help much. Mathematics (like CS) are really hard majors that are now not really worth it if you do not love the subject matter. Still from speaking to other students, this direction is lacking in most students at this level.
No doubt there will be many posts on how there are bad programmers who got in "just for the money" and not for the love of computers and now they are getting what they deserve. I believe this is unfair because there are a lot of people who aren't really brilliant at anything and may not have any strong interests, but they are trying hard to make a living. It's also unfair because money is a factor for everyone, whether you love computers or not.
But I also think there are more interesting classes of people who have been affected by the bust -- the good programmers, the brilliant thinkers, the guys with a thousand ideas, the ones who love computing. The people who got into CS believing that they wouldn't have to deal with the usual silly competitions about what college you went to or how well your professors liked you -- believing that the only thing that mattered was how good your ideas are. The people who, in the 90's could easily start a multi-million dollar company but now have to settle for a mundane, overworked, thankless and low-paying teaching/research job, and that is if they are lucky. They might settle for this job simply because they get to do interesting research, but who wants to deal with harder and harder grad school admissions and then educational politics? Not many that I know.
The bust is also affecting the mid-level players. Reflecting on the exuberance of the boom days, managers are turning toward credentialism to measure their applicants. While this is arguably a good thing for the industry, nobody I know wants to be judged by what college he went to, how well they interview, or other silly metrics. There is also a move to squeeze more out of individual programmers (believe it or not) because budgets are lower. And with fewer possibilities to get capital for your own venture, college students are looking at a future as a programmer, which is looking less like a professional job and more like mental labor. Some might call the dropouts dumb, but if one is entering such a profession, he ought to examine his own decisions first.
unfortunately I can't figure out my nephew... A Philosiphy major with an Ethics minor... Yay, he'll learn new ways to contemplate.... "You want fries with that?"
I'm more worried about lots of students taking the worthless career tracks like that
Because you fullfill a role in the machine of society does not mean you are truly alive. Computer Science is interesting stuff, but in the grand scheme of existence computers are essentially irrelevent. The average human is probably LESS happy today than before the computer was invented.
For some, philosophy is pure contemplation as you mention. For others however, it is the ultimate weapon to enslave more members of society such as yourself. I can assure you those people who created our regimented system of compulsory education and the modern work week were avid students of philosophy.
You are exemplifying a stunningly ignorant view, and I highly suggest you revise it. This world is fucked up as it is, we don't need more people who think the purpose of their lives is to work in pointless jobs.
You must not forget that the ultimate purpose of our modern society (school + employee life) was to make the vast majority of citizens dependent on the system and thereby enslave them. 150 years ago, the only people who took orders from anyone were in the military, young people learning a trade, or slaves. 90% of citizens had an independent livelihood as farmers or tradesmen.
The attitude you portray is the result of a lifetime of training, you cannot imagine what life would be like if you didn't spend it becoming an employee. You are a successful product of the social engineering machine.
I am not trying to insult you here, just trying to open your eyes to the truth. Philosophy is necessary now more than ever, as nothing else focuses on the concept of value to human life. You say philosophy is worthless, but by whose standards? Your master, thats who. By his phiosophical standards, you studying philosophy is a threat to society. You may cause trouble, perhaps even start a revolution. He made a wise decision (according to his standards) to train you over two decades to accept your place, and he has succeeded.
Read up on it, you have not yet begun to live.
I don't read or respond to AC posts
>Sparse attendance is, of course, an end-of-semester inevitability. Many students viewed the lecture by Webcast, if at all. But more significantly,
>just 350 students signed up for the course this spring, in striking contrast to enrollment in the fall of 2000, when the same lecture hall was
>engorged at the start of the semester with 700 students sitting and standing in every available pocket of space.
How the heck do you learn anything in a class of 700 students? I'd be surprised if I could even hear the teacher..
Twenties Retirement
What happened is that you had to deal with the real world of users, managers, budgets, corporate politics, and scheduling. Once you realized that over 50% of the job has nothing to do with programming (or at least not what you consider programming), you became disillusioned and bored.
Unfortunately if you're going to work in the corporate world, you're probably going to find that the vast majority of jobs have the same non-core-task annoyances. For example, my baby sister works for a non-profit with about 10-20 total employees. What does she gripe about from work? The boss, the clients (users), inter-office politics, lack of funding, and unreasonable expectations/deadlines. (And the computer crashing, but that's from a user's perspective -- she's not a programmer.)
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
People who love computers are fuckin' weird. They need girlfriends, but they'll never get them BECAUSE THE LOVE COMPUTERS.
They also need to learn, usually, how to wash and interact with other humans, but they'll never learn these things because after they're done whacking off to Interporn they load up Counter-Strike for a few hours and then finish off the day by watching videos online and working through their Python exercises, oh and don't forget to read up on the GAMING INDUSTRY, which is so sickly in love with itself it's, well, sickly. After all that, they're bored, so they whack off some more.
Chr0m0Dr0m!C
Adding to the industry's employment woes is news that big investment banks like Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley are reportedly considering farming more of their jobs overseas to countries like India, where employment costs are significantly cheaper.
According to a recent study by management consulting firm A.T. Kearney, U.S. mutual funds, banks, brokerages and insurers plan to move 500,000 jobs overseas, or about 8 percent of their workforces, overseas over the next five years, saving some $30 billion annually in operating costs.
The job relocations will begin to involve increasingly sophisticated positions, including financial analysis, research, accounting and human resources, A.T. Kearney finds. Until now, offshore job transfers have focused on back-office functions such as data entry.
Or they realize it's a futile effort since more and more jobs are moving to India.
Before i rant, some quick background. I've been in IT in some shape or form since 95. I am a decent admin, capable of working in 2k, XP, and Linux (with linux being my preferred server solution). I have a career relavent degree and certifcations. Back in 99 I went back to school and got my degree in june of 01. I spent 13 months unemployed before i recieved a very low paying job that barely keeps me above bankruptcy.
Less then 10% of my graduating class ever got career relavent jobs.
OK, now the rant. I would tell ANYONE thinking about a career in computers to avoid it like the black plague. There's too many people unemployed in this area as it is. Companies are outsourcing tech jobs like mad. If by some miracle you do get a job, its very low paying (I've seen companies in LA offering CCIE's $15 an hour) and extremely long hours. Even for someone like me who loves computers, its just not worth it. Getting a degree in this field is just a sure fire way to end up with massive student loans you'll have little chance of ever paying off.
People keep speaking of when things will recover. I dont think they're going to really. Companies just dont want to spend money in IT or pay for decent IT departments. Why pay someone 35k or more when you can just outsource it for far less. Granted the outsourced IT sucks quality wise, but
the bean counters dont care about quality.
Lawyers, MBA's, RIAA? A jedi fears not these things!
Not like a few years ago when students were enrolling because they wanted to make a quick buck. I'll take quality over quantity
For a lot of people around here, it was a case of getting a decent job at all. Unfortunately, many employment advisors etc pushed them towards the computing field, ending them up in programming courses.
What these advisors don't seem to understand... yes, IT was a booming job market. However, it does require a certain mindset. In my course, which wasn't overly difficult to me, we had an influx of laid-off government workers from forestry and other IT-unrelated sectors. Some actually were decent coders... others simply floundered.
In addition, many who got good marks because of "book skills" simply don't cope well with real-life situations.
It's one thing to study up for test-time by memorizing keywords or phrases, methodologies, etc (some of which were completely useless crap IMHO, as I've never seen them used in the field) - it's quite another to be vaulted into a job situation... where your production server suddenly crashes continually while running a critical financial application running on COBOL.
OK, maybe not COBOL, but in many cases linux or related. Skills at finding information and solutions to problems from google, newgroups, and manuals - quickly and effectively - is a skills that often gets overlooked. The ability to cope in a crisis where the problem isn't obviously in a book, or is just unknown, is often more built-in than learned.
I'm not saying that some people from other industries can't learn to code, or be admins. It's just that many don't develop the love that comes with the position, it's just a job. Being able to punch in code for hours on end... look at the clock and suddenly realize you've been at it for 5 hours... and think "wow, what a rush, that was awesome" is just something that is beyond the average person. Equivilate it to a "jogger's high" - which is something many geeks will equally not experience... it's what seperates true geeks from trained nerds.
IT workers that lack the fundamental passion are glutting the market because people have been given the idea that "IT will get you a job", "IT is the place to be," "They're looking for workers like you." In the end, they make us all look bad, and make it very difficult for those who truly love IT to get the jobs we love. It's not just about grades (though the do indicate skill) or resumes, it's about passion.
How many people who end up doing computer work have a comp sci degree anyway? Looking around my office, I see a 22 year old with no degree, myself with an English degree, two guys with physics degrees, one with a math degree, one with a compsci degree (but he's from Ukraine), and a guy with an MBA. All programming.
Because you're posting on a US-centric site, and everyone knows that the US is God's country, the best, number 1, etc. etc.
In the US of late xenophobia has taken hold, all foreigners are suspect, particularly if you're brown and speak with a very noticeable accent.
To compound matters, most posters here are hardcore nerds who have trouble relating to their fellow citizens, not to mind a foreigner.
My irony is that I'm a psychology major who did a lot of research and used a lot of computers. Now half my work involves data abstraction, workflow, working with people, and statistics. If I'd gone into a CIS major I probably would have been a worse programmer - the extra "something" helps.
"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
Oh god. Here it goes again...every dipshit with an inferiority complex is going to come out of the woodwork and claim they are the real life story behind "Good Will Hunting", and how everyone they ever worked with(ha!) who had a degree, or worse, a CS degree, or even WORSE, a Master's in CS, are the biggest boneheads in the building except for management, and all the cool kids are the one's who have been self-teaching since in utero.
Please, for the love of Pete, STF. We don't care, and if we once did, we stopped caring after we read the four millionth note detailing someone's "real experience" here on slashdot.
I am Shaun McCormick, quoted from UT-Austin.
I don't think all of the CS people leaving the major is because of hard classes. It being a newspaper article, and therefore good at misquoting character, I was personally put as being a newbie to computers as well as not having much knowledge of one. I have been programming since 7th grade, always enjoyed it, and been doing web design since 8th. I still love to draw and do web design (one of the reasons I'm going into Advertising now--so I can draw in Photoshop for a living, something that thrills me!), but the idea of programming all day at a desk just kills my interest. I was a better programmer than most of the class at UT--often teaching people how to do programs. In fact, I plan on teaching entering freshman at UT in the first CS class as a USL (something like a TA) next year.
Now I'm not saying that programming all day at a desk is a bad thing. If you love it, great! Just what the college programs are doing is getting people to realize that if they're not totally passionate about Computer Science, EVEN IF they're good at it, there's no reason to stay in it.
A person made a comment that you can be good at something as a hobby, yet not want to pursue it as a career. Personally, I don't want to program or do Computer Science for a career. However, I still love computers and the science behind them, and admire those who work with them. It is just not for me.
Please, do not overgeneralize all those leaving the major and career as those who are inept at the science itself. Rather, they are just finding things that they are more passionate about, and would rather do for their lives.
With medicine, an artificial restriction on the supply of doctors keeps their salaries high. It's still tough as hell to get into, but once you're in, there IS no competition.
Not really a fair comparison...presumedly, those governing bodies are *primarily* there to maintain some standards of competence - keeping the Dr. Nick Rivieras ("Hi everybody!") out of medicine.
A better contrasting example would be to the trade unions in this country that pump up janitor's salaries to $60k-$120k a year.