Aqwon, the First Hydrogen Scooter

An anonymous reader writes "After 10 years of research and development, Josef Zeitler has developed the first hydrogen-filled two stroke engine scooter with technical approval from the German TÜV. In case of an accident, the tank will freeze and no fire or explosion would occur. Anyone can fill-up the tank on the scooter within 3 to 4 minutes, without being in any danger. The pressure sensor will transmit the data to a computer chip, which will then accumulate and send the necessary information, regarding the proper hydrogen mixture, to the injection jet. This process of refilling is possible with a newly developed system consisting of pressure tanks and a hydrogen generator. AQWON's top speed is about 50 km/h (31 mph), the power is 2.6 kWh and the weight is minimal. This is the same as a petrol/oil two stroke scooter. There is no extra maintenance service required."

Comments

Two stroke?

[Anonymous Coward]

Whats the economics in using two strokes anymore? Two stroke engines pollute a lot, and the exhaust includes more fuel than not, with the exception of diesel two strokes. What motivated him to use two stroke instead of four? Is the power increase that needed?

Re:Two stroke?

[skillio]

uh. it has no emissions, its hydrogen powered dude. the case of a tree-hugger barking up the wrong tree (:

Re:Two stroke?

[astrashe]

I don't think pollution is a problem for hydrogen engines -- they don't burn hydrocarbons.

Re:Two stroke?

[Angry White Guy]

1) the power increase needed
2) the fact that Hydrogen is clean burning and you don't have to waste an engine cycle on fully burning your fuel.

Re:Two stroke?

[SkArcher]

Burning Hydrogen causes no pollutants whatsoever, so i'd imagine that the design simply went with whatever solution provided most mechanical/engineering/sales benefits.

2H + O = Water

Re:Two stroke?

[Selecter]

OH jeez. It's a HYDROGEN two stroke engine. Hydrogen power sources mostly produce water vapor as their main exhaust. There's no pollution like in a engine that uses carbon based fuel. After the Hindenburg, nobody dared to use it anymore. On the other hand, every time you do the two-stroke, we KNOW what happens in YOUR house.

Re:Two stroke?

[Anonymous Coward]

Simplistic formulae is best left to textbooks. It burns hydrogen and AIR. Air is NOT O2, air is O2 AND N2 and etc....

78% of our air is Nitrogen, 21% is oxygen, and the remainder is noble and trace gases.

You WILL get Nitrous oxide compounds even burning with this fuel, so yes, you will see exhaust pollution, just not as nasty or copious.

Also, the higher temperatures will form more carbon monoxide vs dioxide ratios than normal

Re:Two stroke?

[Neophytus]

Though in the hindenburg it was used to help the craft float and not to drive it, or am I mistaken?

Re:Two stroke?

[GMontag]

Yea, the sales (marketing) part would be glossing over or ignoring where the hydrogen comes from, the lossy energy process used to crack it from whatever it was bound to, etc.

Re:Two stroke?

[Anonymous Coward]

your very first post has to be as an asshole , huh?

Re:Two stroke?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are correct. Hydrogen was the Hindenburg's lift gas. The propellers were powered by huge diesel engines.

Re:Two stroke?

[Waffle Iron]

uh. it has no emissions, its hydrogen powered dude.

Well, it says that the engine is based on a conventional 50cc 2-stroke engine. These get lubrication by mixing motor oil with the gasline fuel. Unless they've figured out an entirely new way to lubricate the engine, you'd still get that nasty stinky blue smoke coming out from the burning oil.

Re:Two stroke?

[Anonymous Coward]

A two stroke will pollute a lot but what is it's fuel source again? hydrogen? :P

Re:Two stroke?

[saden1]

Hydrogen maybe safe when it comes to producing pollution but the safety of a hydrogen burning engine is another story. Hope the scooter as redundant fail safe system on it otherwise the rider is gonna have one foot in the after life.

Re:Two stroke?

[schimmi]

Ondly o few facts some of my friends showed me

1) The Power generated by a two stroke engine is (in theory) twice the power of a 4 stroke engine. But you have ondly half the frition and with the right materials less heat-loss thru the cylinder-surface.
2) The exhaust of an Two stroke engine is normaly so bad because of several reasons:
a) Some fuel excapes unburned in clasical two stroke engines because e mixture of air and fuel is used to move out the exhaust. this is not true for direct-injection engines (like disel engines, and maybe this on)
b) Oil is mixed with the fuel. but this is not nececery for every two stroke engine design

Re:Two stroke?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oops, no emissions. Nevermind!

Still, two stroke wastes a lot of fuel in the process. I bet a four stroke would be able to go a lot farther than 100km, although you'd have to live with maybe a little less power.

Re:Two stroke?

[SkArcher]

Probably, but its just the same as glossing over the problems with electric vehicles - the power has to come from somewhere, and while solar is all very well, some days it just won't do (bad weather)

at that point, its going to come from the mains electric supply, which means coal, oil or nuclear, in the main.

Re:Two stroke?

[tempfile]

You're right. However, science has shown that the fear of hydrogen because of the Hindenburg was pointless, as the disastrous fire came from the flammable paint and coating. Hydrogen burns so quickly and cleanly that it would be less disastrous if it exploded than petrols.

Re:Two stroke?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know people who SNIFF nitrous oxide. you could bottle the exhaust and sell it.

Re:Two stroke?

[Smidge204]

Well, if they ever get those hydrogen generating nuclear plants (Which I'd still like to see built on the Ceasar model, if it proves workable), then it would be a big improvement all around I would think.
=Smidge=

Re:Two stroke?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hur fan kan nån vara så jävla dum?

Re:Two stroke?

[anthony_dipierro]

the power has to come from somewhere, and while solar is all very well, some days it just won't do (bad weather)

Not to mention the enormous power consumption used in creating the solar panels.

Re:Two stroke?

[Anonymous Coward]

Det är väl tyskar

Re:Two stroke?

[Igmuth]

Yes, the power has to come from a power plant that most likely burns some sort of fuel.Though I would imagine that the power plant is a bit more efficient than you average car engine. (Correct me if I am mistaken)

Re:Two stroke?

[Lours]

uh. it has no emissions, its hydrogen powered dude. the case of a tree-hugger barking up the wrong tree (:


Hydrogen in itself is not an energy source but rather an energy vector. As it is not available under its gaseous (H2) form naturally it must be extracted either from water (H20) or hydrocarbons such as oil or methan (CH4).

If hydrogen is extracted from water via electrolysis, it consumes a *lot* more energy than what you gain by burning it in the scooter's engine both because thermodynamics dictates it and because this process is not very efficient.
If you live in the US, the major part of electricity is produced by oil/coal-burning plants, and this will induce a lot more CO2 emissions than if you had used a standard oil scooter. Most of the world generates electricity this way (France being the biggest exception with 76% of its electricity being nuclear).

If you extract hydrogen from oil or gases it will use less electricity but it will generate CO2 emissions too. I read in a recent scientific (paper) article that they were also greater than when burning oil in a standard scooter...

So unless hydrogen is produced using electricity which itself was produced via an emission free process, ie renewables, using such a scooter is actually more damaging to the environment than not doing so.

The so-called hydrogen economy is currently a dream unless our global energy consumption goes down enough that we can use renewable sources to satisfy it. Otherwise it's just a new marketting trend initiated by the chemical/petroleum industry which is the one producing hydrogen and lobbying it despite the danger it causes to the environment under the current electricity producing conditions.

Re:Two stroke?

[PerlGuru]

In case of an accident, the tank will freeze and no fire or explosion would occur.

Right there in the slashdot write-up, no need to go to the site for further information ;-)

Re:Two stroke?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because 4 strokes is just two too many!

Re:Two stroke?

[Zirnike]

Right, sort of. The damn thing will end up burning the lubricants, like any 2 stroke engine... unless, of course, the H2 burns at a lower temp than the oil. I left my Thermodynamics book at work... But I think that might end up being the case, in air, anyway. Releasing H2 into the air won't really be much of an issue, assuming that they can keep the percentage down to reasonable.

2 stroke is simpler, that's probably why it was done that way.

The real problem is how the laws passed that ban 2-stroke engines (standard gas ones, anyway) affect this. Are they written to allow for a 'clean' 2-stroke (i.e. emissions dependent), or do they ban 2-strokes totally? That could get ugly.

Re:Two stroke?

[Dyolf Knip]

The upside to this is that when hydrogen cars finally take off, using a dedicated O2 tank won't be anywhere near as problematic. And LO2 is one of the cheapest industrial fluids you can buy.

Re:Two stroke?

[73939133]

Also, the higher temperatures will form more carbon monoxide vs dioxide ratios than normal

That would be a neat trick, given that neither the fuel nor the air contain significant amounts of carbon. Transmutation in a two-stroke engine.

Re:Two stroke?

[jerde]

> Also, the higher temperatures will form more carbon monoxide vs dioxide ratios than normal

Carbon compounds are not much of a problem, since there's no carbon involved! I don't think any carbon dioxide from the ambient air would get converted to carbon monoxide, and there's no other source of carbon.

Meanwhile, there are ways of dealing with the nitrogen problem. The promotional materials for this hydrogen scooter don't specify if they use a catalytic converter, which dramatically reduces the emission of nitrogen compounds. A good converter would probably do the trick.

- Peter

Re:Two stroke?

[MZdoctor]

In this case we are talking about direct injection, so no fuel is wasted. Experimental DI two-strokes have repeatedly demonstrated remarkable efficiency, especially under part load, so think again before you bet!

Re:Two stroke?

[Anonymous Coward]

you'd still get that nasty stinky blue smoke coming out from the burning oil
And you get NOx as well. Nitrogen oxides are really bad for you and the environment. That's why fuel cells are much better.

Re:Two stroke?

[arlow]

Also, the higher temperatures will form more carbon monoxide vs dioxide ratios than normal

no, you're not burning any carbon so you won't get any carbon dioxide. this is powered by Hydrogen gas, not by a hydrocarbon. yes, at higher temperatures you will get more oxides of nitrogen, but hydrogen actually burns cooler than your average hydrocarbon fuel like gas, so this will produce less pollution.

(another correction: high temperatures cause more complete oxidation of carbon (CO2) rather than incomplete oxidation (CO)...)

Re:Two stroke?

[saden1]

In case of an accident, the tank will freeze and no fire or explosion would occur.

That is a fail safe system. My post clearly states redundant fail safe. What happens if the system that controls the freezing processes of the tank doesn't work?

Re:Two stroke?

[The Lone Badger]

You'll still get NOx emissions. And this thing generates the hydrogen using mains power, meaning the hydrocarbons were still burnt in a power plant.

Re:Two stroke?

[Guppy06]

"I don't think pollution is a problem for hydrogen engines -- they don't burn hydrocarbons."

While the engine itself doesn't, as has been repeated on Slashdot ad nauseam, the power plants needed to crack water do.

Just remember to say "no" nuclear power! We like our air pollution!

Uhh....

[Piranhaa]

Uhh the link points to a motorbike, not a scooter :/

Re:Uhh....

[Anonymous Coward]

Play the little multimedia application at AQUON's homepage here. Prototype 1 was a motorbike. Prototype 2 (which looks very close to a finished product) is the scooter.

Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder what materials the engine is made of? Hydrogen embrittles metals so a current ICE would fail much more quickly if running on H2.

The home fueling station is nice. Throw in a solar panel or two and now we're talking.

But alas it's a scooter and scooters in America are like dating fat chicks: you'd like to ride it but you don't want your friends to know.

Re:Cool

[dreamchaser]

It might just be a scooter now, but this is the engine technology that could very well power future cars, trucks, SUV's, etc. One has to start somewhere.

Re:Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't disagree with you at all. The #1 (IMHO) problem is how expensive is that fueling station? There won't be public H2 stations for some time. Honda has a home refueling pump for their natural gas powered Civic GX sedan. It costs at least three thousand dollars and takes approximately 8 hours to refuel the car. Ignoring the refueling time (which is pretty long), the cost may make it prohibitive to install a home refueling station which will in turn make it more difficult to sell H2 powered transportation to the public.

Re:Cool

[Qzukk]

The cost should pretty much be in the pumps and whatever coupler you're using to connect the storage tank to the fuel tank. Of those, I wonder how well a standard compressor (relatively cheap) would do with Hydrogen. I expect that the pressure in the fuel tank is likely higher than an average compressor can reach.

The coupler will be the big thing. It has to be strong enough to maintain the connection, it has to close on disconnect so that your tanks don't leak and you don't wind up getting your skull crushed when the hose recoils (think uncontrolled fire hose here).

Hydrogen generation is just water+electricity, although I'm not sure what goes into seperating the H2 from the O2 in the air. I've never bothered, since my goal in generating hydrogen was to make a test tube explode. (there are also chemical reactions which generate only H2, however these require something else to be added to the water... like aluminumm, which forms aluminum oxide and H2.)

Re:Cool

[MikeFM]

I'd ride a scooter (or a fat chick) and not really give a damn who knew. My foot on their ass will shut anyone up quickly should they decide to make snide comments. :)

You may be right that most people are to uptight to do anything as uncool as ride a scooter but then tough shit to them I guess. More toys (and fat chicks I hope) for me.

Re:Cool

[uradu]

> this is the engine technology that could very well power future cars

Don't think so. The trend is firmly in the direction of fuel cells and electric drive. The world is moving more and more into a solid state direction--more computers, less moving parts--because less mechanical complexity means more reliability and lower price (well, theoretically anyway). The overall achievable system efficiency of fuel cells and high efficiency electric motors is also considerably higher than what you can get with ICEs.

This is not to say that BMW is necessarily wasting their time with hydrogen burning engines. A considerable portion of the effort is devoted to hydrogen infrastructure and storage R&D, and that will be required long term regardless of which engine technology wins. Hydrocarbon fuel cells are only a medium-term stopgap measure anyway, it's not what you will want to be using in one hundred years. Pure hydrogen seems like the most likely long term energy carrier.

Re:Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

The trend is firmly in the direction of fuel cells and electric drive.
Yeah, that is the trend. But it will be some time before we get there. This may become a nice trend toy for some to play with and help move the economy off of oil and towards H2.
And yes, I know that oil will be used to help create H2, but this will allow alternatives to be developed, including wind, solar, nuke,etc.

Re:Cool

[alcharn]

I could not agree more. Every novel idea has to start somewhere. This new engine technology is only starting with the scooter... where will it go next??

Re:Cool

[Istealmymusic]

(there are also chemical reactions which generate only H2, however these require something else to be added to the water... like aluminumm, which forms aluminum oxide and H2.)

You can simply mix an acid (in an aqueous solution) with metal to form H2 and a salt:
M + 2HA(aq) -> H2 + AM

Re:Cool

[Zirnike]

There are bound to be metals that this doesn't cause a problem for. I do know that titanium is affected by H2 embrittlement, at least durning annealing (which means heat... engine heat would probably cause problems, too). But what percentage of H2 is needed for it to be a problem?

You need to have less than a 42% H2 mix with air (I can't remember if air is 21% O2 by volume or weight... you need twice as much H2 by volume, or 16 times more O2 by weight), which might be enough to fix the problem. Metal manufacturing isn't my focus, unfortunatly for this discussion.

I always wanted to get a Vespa. Paint it black, with flames on the front... And wear a leather jacket and one of those half-helmets like the hard-core bikers tend to. Of course, I'm the sort of person who would mow the front lawn with a hooded black robe and a scythe...

Re:Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

You are anti-freedom of speech.

If people say "Haha, you're dating a fat chick" and you get angry, then you imply that there is somthing wrong or evil with dating a "fat chick." If I were you, I would ignore them. If they persistantly speak truth that you are dating a "fat chick", then you are to pull out your consitution or Bible and point your finger at your law or what it says about your pursuit of liberty and happiness. Of'course, this sounds good in theory...because everyone watches Gossip Television and lacks morality.

I don't live in a den of evil...I live on a mountain of happiness. Visit me some time :)

Re:Cool

[Joey7F]

I bet you could solve the distribution problem by not thinking that we need to build seperate
dispensing stations but rather seperate pumps at standard gas stations. It should be an interesting to see how this unfolds :)

--Joey

Re:Cool

[Alphtoo]

"But alas it's a scooter...". Indeed it is, and you're right. In the US riding underpowered bikes isn't just frowned upon, it's dangerous. I've riden mopeds (here known as "drunk-mobiles" because they can be ridden without a license), scooters, and full-powered motorcycles, and I don't want to ride anything that doesn't have enough power to get out of its own way. I wonder when they're planning to build a kick-ass, high-horsepower bike that will run on this stuff and scream on down the road?

Re:Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, the production of the acid and the metal needed causes no polution. The salt, well it will be completely bio-degradable, non-toxic, and even have a resale value!

If H2 is a feasable fuel, private industry will make it work, as long as the government stays out of the way.

First Hydrogen, eh?

[zonix]

Amazing! By any chance would it be codenamed Hindenburg, then? :-)

z

Re:First Hydrogen, eh?

[pe1rxq]

Actually the Hindenburg disaster happened because its hull was basicly made out of explosives.
Althoug hydrogen is flamable, so our oil based fuels

Jeroen

Re:First Hydrogen, eh?

[halo8]

ya know.. im be anal here..

but..

this post ISNT funny, this is the kind of backward 1930's thinking that has been holding everything back for the past 66 years..

35 ppl died thats it.. just 35.. thats a CNN story for a day.. nothing more, big fireball thats it. big deal

hydogen cars and new airships have been soo promising from new transport ships, to rescue, to heavy lifting construction, to communication platforms..

but its your kind of backward mentality that is stopping investors from exploiting a wonderfull resource

Re:First Hydrogen, eh?

[JanneM]

The Hindenburg was actually designed for helium, not hydrogen. Due to an embargo on the sale of helium to Germany at the time, they decided to try hydrogen as a substitute. Of course, it thus lacked some safety features that would otherwise have been given with that choice. Since the Hindenburg was a major PR thingy for Nazi Germany, it was decided that it would be safe anough anyway.

Just another example of how PR-based wish fulfillment is trumped by reality...

Re:First Hydrogen, eh?

[zonix]

this post ISNT funny, this is the kind of backward 1930's thinking that has been holding everything back for the past 66 years..

Dude, settle down, it is just a joke - if I were backwards thinking I wouldn't be pro nuclear.

z

Re:First Hydrogen, eh?

[uradu]

Incidentally, the disaster would most likely have occured even if helium had been used, since the fire started with the highly flammable aluminum powder-coated skin. Maybe fewer people would have died or burned, since the fire wouldn't have spread quite so quickly into the interior, but it would probably have gone down anyway.

Re:First Hydrogen, eh?

[anthony_dipierro]

Hindenburg... Because if at first you don't succeed, give up.

Re:First Hydrogen, eh?

[zonix]

Because if at first you don't succeed, give up.

... or redefine success. :-)

z

Re:First Hydrogen, eh?

[DigiShaman]

Ok, I'm only responding just to back this up because I'm so tired of the old Hindenburg issue being brought up! And yes, the paint was basically of the same compound that would be considered solid rocket fuel. It has to do with the metal that was in it, hence it's silver color. And yes I know, this is redundant. Sorry.

Re:First Hydrogen, eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

That was in the old days.
These are *modern* times.

VorwardsStadt, perhaps ? :)

Re:First Hydrogen, eh?

[Orne]

Discovery had this great show on the Hindenburg.... apparently, they used aluminum powder in their paint... heck, this site says it better:

"Careful investigation of the Hindenburg disaster verified the opinion of the engineers on the Hindenburg and proved that it was the flammable aluminum powder filled paint varnish that coated the infamous airship, not the hydrogen that started the fateful fire.

The Hindenburg repeated the famous experiment of Ben Franklin regarding collection of electric charge on an object in the sky. Ben Franklin flew a kite in a storm to learn about lightening. The captain of the Hindenburg provided the 800' long, 236 ton, aluminum-powder varnish covered airship as a much larger electric charge collector. As the Hindenburg was grounded by dropping landing lines, the experiment was complete and electrical discharge in the Hindenburg's skin started the fire. The Hindenburg would have burned and crashed if it had been filled with helium or simply held in the air by some other force.

As eyewitnesses noted, the hydrogen fire started considerably after the Hindenburg's surface skin started to burn and was over in less than one minute. The diesel fuel and other heavier-than-air components of the Hindenburg continued to burn many hours on the ground."

Re:First Hydrogen, eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, it was the time bomb placed in gas cell #4 by a rigger (crewman) that started the fire.

Range

[gerf]

is 100km. That's not bad at all really. But still, the major question remains: where are we getting hydrogen from?!

We don't have large hydrogen producing plants, and we don't have a major distribution center to support it. I'm assuming you'll have to fill up your tank at home, which means installing a LOT of equipment, at GREAT expense, at least until a good distribution system is in place. Yes there are some hydrogen refueling places, but not really that many yet.

I support many of Bush's plans, but he really has to drop oil, and focus on something even more proven: that technology advances, and new products replace the old.

Re:Range

[GMontag]

I get the hydrogen for my Jeep from retail outlets that market it under a different name.

It goes a heck of a lot farther than 100km on one tank too!

Re:Range

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if this would not make a good replacement for lawn mower engines and the like. They are already being singled out as major producers of pollution. Range would not be a big problem for the typical user. The fuel coudl be generated with a system that generates a trickle of hydrogen, such as solar or wind, with maybe electrical as a backup.

Would be nice to see hydrogen get any kind of foothold in our economy.

Re:Range

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.discover.com/may_03/featoil.html

This is an article talking about new technology to convert garbage (literally) into oil. So instead of buying oil from OPEC, we produce our own and are 100% self sufficient. Also it doesn't add any new CO2 to the atmosphere since it uses recycled materials.

Oil/gas as an energy storage mechanism has proven safe, effective, dense + cheaper than all alternatives. Solar power--always 10 years away. Electric cars--batteries always heavy, don't store enough power, and wear out too quickly, not to mention incredibly expensive.

Re:Range

[nomadic]

There's hydrogen all around you! Here's how you can get some:

Go to your faucet. Fill a glass with water. Put your mouth as close to the surface of the water as you can. Breathe in all the oxygen.

What will be left is pure hydrogen!

Re:Range

[Spunk]

Cute.

Re:Range

[edmo]

This is an article talking about new technology to convert garbage (literally) into oil...Oil/gas as an energy storage mechanism has proven safe, effective, dense + cheaper than all alternatives
I remember reading about this a wile ago, we could be using it now if we wanted to, but(in the US at lest) oil is only cost effective because the government subsidizes drilling...

Solar power--always 10 years away. Electric cars--batteries always heavy, don't store enough power, and wear out too quickly, not to mention incredibly expensive.
You may have been right about solar power 10 or 15 years ago, but now it is a viable energy source, In the town where I live we have a festival every spring. The festival has a hippy/save the earth theme, and so it is solar powered. a small area(about 20m by 10m) of photoelectric cells power the whole festival(easily 100m by 100m), including a good size stage. Further more the theater where my company performs recently installed solar cells on the roof, now power costs are virtually nil during the summer, and during the winter they are greatly reduced. If all building were required to use solar paneling for their roofs...
It is true that strait electric cars tend to be either small or need to be recharged to often, but hybrids are incredibly efficient, getting 100 miles to the gallon, and often more. If they were hydrogen electric instead of oil electric hybrid then they would produce no pollution...

Oil has served us, at some times even well, but now cleaner cheeper energy sources are viable, it is time to change...

Re:Range

[Cyberdyne]

I remember reading about this a wile ago, we could be using it now if we wanted to, but(in the US at lest) oil is only cost effective because the government subsidizes drilling...

Looks like Philadelphia didn't get that memo: "So the city of Philadelphia is in discussion with Changing World Technologies to begin doing exactly that." (from the linked article)

Not only that, the government is supporting this development too (for obvious reasons):

Private investors, who have chipped in $40 million to develop the process, aren't the only ones who are impressed. The federal government has granted more than $12 million to push the work along. "We will be able to make oil for $8 to $12 a barrel," says Paul Baskis, the inventor of the process. "We are going to be able to switch to a carbohydrate economy."

Even if he's exaggerating by a factor of 2, that would be competitive with current crude oil prices. It also produces a good fertilizer as a byproduct, and converts PVC into hydrochloric acid - useful in itself, and far cleaner than the dioxins produced by incinerating it. It's even starting to be commercialized:

This Philadelphia pilot plant can handle only seven tons of waste a day, but 1,054 miles to the west, in Carthage, Missouri, about 100 yards from one of ConAgra Foods' massive Butterball Turkey plants, sits the company's first commercial-scale thermal depolymerization plant. The $20 million facility, scheduled to go online any day, is expected to digest more than 200 tons of turkey-processing waste every 24 hours.

OK, only 200 tons per day - but that should be enough proof-of-concept to get other plants, and certainly a step in the right direction!

It is true that strait electric cars tend to be either small or need to be recharged to often, but hybrids are incredibly efficient, getting 100 miles to the gallon, and often more. If they were hydrogen electric instead of oil electric hybrid then they would produce no pollution...

Not really true - you've fallen into the usual trap. Hydrogen, unlike fossil fuels, is not an energy source - it merely stores energy produced by some other process (usually fossil fuel or nuclear, sometimes hydro or wind). IMO, hybrid cars (either gasoline, or better, diesel) burning fuel from plants like this represent a much better setup: apart from anything else, burning hydrogen doesn't solve the waste disposal issue this plant does!

Oil has served us, at some times even well, but now cleaner cheeper energy sources are viable, it is time to change...

I'm not sure either of those is true. Where are you going to get the electricity for an electric or hydrogen car? Most of the choices reduce to: coal, oil or nuclear. Sometimes hydro, wind or a little solar, but they aren't yet viable without subsidies, let alone cheaper! Using this plant to generate clean, recycled oil seems a much better arrangement all round: no need to change cars at all, no pollution (you're just recycling biomass), no change in infrastructure, and it cleans up landfill problems too.

Re:Range

[Antity-H]

Hydrogen, unlike fossil fuels, is not an energy source - it merely stores energy produced by some other process (usually fossil fuel or nuclear, sometimes hydro or wind).

This is both right and wrong, though it is true that to create hydrogen we have to input energy, there is a way to use hydrogen that generates much more energy than what was used to create it.

It is called Hydrogen fusion

Even though considering our current technology level we do not control fusion and therefore can't use it in daily applications. I really think that that's the way to go.
IIRC hyrogen fusion generates heat (lots) and helium which can the be reused or even burnt. The main problem is : how to keep it cool enough to be controlled and hot enough to keep fusion going. Some propose tores of plasma
Used in this way, hydrogen IS an energy source, producing much more energy than was stored in it in the first place.

In my perfect world H fusion plant generate enough electricity to power all the electrolysis plants you need, thus allowing the replacement of the oil based economy by an hydrogen based one, much cleaner and reusable.

Re:Range

[edmo]

Where are you going to get the electricity for an electric or hydrogen car? Most of the choices reduce to: coal, oil or nuclear.
Solar, wind, and hydroelectric power are perfectly viable power sources, yes we need to build up new infrastructure, and I agree that this new process for oil seems like a good step for now, but the electricity(and by extenuation hydrogen) for the hybrid cars can be produced by clean sources.
the reason clean energy needs to be subsidized right now is because fossil fuels(and a little nuclear) hold a monopoly on the market, the same reason we can't get rid of M$. Maintenance and other associated costs of solar power are far smaller than petroleum or nuclear, and the initial costs are constantly being brought down. One major hurtle w/ solar is that it could initiate a new system of power where every house makes most of the energy they need, taking power away from large corporations. Why is this a problem you ask? Simple, oil companies will(and are) fight this every step of the way

apart from anything else, burning hydrogen doesn't solve the waste disposal issue this plant does!
Now if I under stand this properly, this plant uses biomass, not strait garbage. There is another use for excess biomass that has existed for centuries. Composting can turn otherwise useless biomass into food! amazing as this may sound, you don't need chemical fertilizers to grow food, you can simply let old food/vegetation rot, then plant new food in it. this method gets near 100% efficiency, and doesn't place extra hydrocarbons in the air...

Re:Range

[Reziac]

How about a trickle system that uses atmospheric moisture, and draws it as the lawn mower is in operation? That way there is no tank to worry about, and when you shut it off, any leftover H2 can dissipate without being a problem.

Of course it wouldn't be efficient in dry climates, but in that case, just add a damp sponge to the air intake to provide the water.

Come to think of it, wouldn't a larger trickle system (using a water tank) get rid of the "dragging around a perforce-leaking, puncture-vulnerable tank of H2" problem that another poster brought up?

Re:Range

[anthony_dipierro]

I wonder if this would not make a good replacement for lawn mower engines and the like.

Nah, we already have a replacement, batteries. Unlike cars, you don't need the 0-60 power that comes from combustion in a lawn mower.

Re:Range

[anthony_dipierro]

The festival has a hippy/save the earth theme, and so it is solar powered. a small area(about 20m by 10m) of photoelectric cells power the whole festival(easily 100m by 100m), including a good size stage.

How much energy was used to create those solar cells?

Re:Range

[nmos]

How about a trickle system that uses atmospheric moisture, and draws it as the lawn mower is in operation?

Ok, I'm probably missing the obvious but where are you planning to get the energy to draw the moisture out of the air and seperate the H from it?

Re:Range

[Cyberdyne]

This is both right and wrong, though it is true that to create hydrogen we have to input energy, there is a way to use hydrogen that generates much more energy than what was used to create it.

It is called Hydrogen fusion

Fusion power is indeed wonderful, whether using hydrogen or helium, but this is totally unrelated to "hydrogen power" of the kind in the article.

In my perfect world H fusion plant generate enough electricity to power all the electrolysis plants you need, thus allowing the replacement of the oil based economy by an hydrogen based one, much cleaner and reusable.

Counter-intuitively, it's actually less clean than the waste->oil plant: fusion produces power with virtually no fuel used or waste produced, but the depolymerization plant goes one better and recycles existing waste as fuel - effectively producing a negative amount of waste! (Unlike fossil fuel, the only CO2 released is recently sequestered CO2 from the biomass being used.) With your fusion power, you still have organic matter becoming landfill waste rather than being recycled.

Re:Range

[Cyberdyne]

Solar, wind, and hydroelectric power are perfectly viable power sources,

Not very. The first two are intermittent, and hydro isn't even a clean power source! (Hydroelectric damns actually cause significant CO2 release, as well as major ecological damage to the area flooded.) Solar power is actually having problems just keeping initial costs down to current levels: the silicon wafers required are very expensive. A limited demand can be satisfied using "waste" wafers from semiconductor manufacture - above that volume, costs explode.

Now if I under stand this properly, this plant uses biomass, not strait garbage.

You don't understand it correctly, then: it does use straight garbage of various sorts. Anything organic, from sewage to coal.

this method gets near 100% efficiency, and doesn't place extra hydrocarbons in the air...

The waste->oil plant doesn't release any extra hydrocarbons anywhere, either: if the waste were allowed to decay in a landfill site, it would mostly be released as methane - a much more potent greenhouse gas than CO2. This mechanism converts raw organic waste (which would otherwise release large amounts of methane into the atmosphere!) into fertilizer, clean oil, and water. I'd call that a good deal, personally...

Re:Range

[nmos]

and hydro isn't even a clean power source! (Hydroelectric damns actually cause significant CO2 release,

???

Re:Range

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe he intends a generator on the engine to create the electricity. Perhaps it would work -- conservation of energy does not apply because the air coming in makes it an open system.

Re:Range

[Cyberdyne]

and hydro isn't even a clean power source! (Hydroelectric damns actually cause significant CO2 release,

It came as quite a big shock once this was realised; basically, when you flood an area, all the vegetation dies and decays, continuing to release CO2 and methane for years after the dam is first built. In greenhouse effect terms, the gas release is non-trivial, especially compared to other "clean" power sources which don't do this.

Re:Range

[Reziac]

Battery start and self-charging elec. system like a car has, only smaller. I wasn't planning on using magic, tho maybe there's an industrial version of IBM's pixie dust by now :)

Re:Range

[Guppy06]

"Range would not be a big problem for the typical user."

The big power hog in lawn mowers isn't moving the thing, it's actually mowing the grass.

Just like my Hydroge Powered Jeep!

[GMontag]

Well, just like it except my Jeep has the same maintenance in reality, this scooter has the same maintenance in theory.

So, it's just the same except newer and different :-)

Anyone else notice

[Anonymous Coward]

That the chick in the picture is hot?

I'd sooner take her for a ride than that faggy scooter any day!

Re:Anyone else notice

[drdale]

Now you've done it. If this site had any chance at all of avoiding being /.ed, mention of a hot girl surely made this inevitable.

Re:Anyone else notice

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd let her be my two stroke engine, if ya know what I'm saying.

motor insurance

[romit_icarus]

hmm I wonder how much premium I'll have to pay to insure this baby

Re:motor insurance

[anthony_dipierro]

It's just a scooter, so I'd imagine it can't do very much damage.

Re:motor insurance

[romit_icarus]

well the hydrogen potentially can!

Re:motor insurance

[anthony_dipierro]

not any more than a tank full of gasoline.

hydrogen vs. electric for "scooters"...

[ptorrone]

this looks pretty interesting, i'm not sure i'm sold on hydrogen quite yet. i just got away from "filling" up by using electricity for my transportation needs.

hydrogen requires quite a bit of energy to create, it's volatile, the only companies that really have the infrastructure to pull this off are the folks we get gas from now.

i currently use electricity to charge my "scooter" i get the power from solar panels or any plug anywhere (at work, on the go, etc..) anytime. i can charge up anytime and the power from a power plant is far cleaner than hydrogen production at this time.

i think hydrogen and electric is far better than petroleum, but hydrogen forces me to "fill up" electricity does not and it's everywhere and can be made with solar, wind, hydro, etc...

it seems like hydrogen gets us to a more profitable proposition for companies, it's like printer cartridges and razors blades for shavers, we need to keep buying. with electricity, it's different-- we can plug in anywhere, but the gas companies do not make money off that. i think that's the other reason the auto-industry is moving away from electric cars and more towards hydrogen and hybrid, granted...batteries aren't perfect either, if the systems are not planned properly you won't be able to recycle the batteries.

read more about my ride here at my site.

cheers,
pt

Re:hydrogen vs. electric for "scooters"...

[dreamchaser]

You mean you don't pay for electricity? Or maybe you mean you make your own or buy it from some little Mom&Pop shop? You do realize that 99% of our electricity comes from companies every bit as large and powerful (no pun intended) as the oil companies you seem to love to hate?

Your logic is faulty.

Re:hydrogen vs. electric for "scooters"...

[Anonymous Coward]

stfu k thx ta bye

Re:hydrogen vs. electric for "scooters"...

[ptorrone]

i have a solar array. i don't hate any oil companies at all, i do try to find other sources or power and propultion than are not oil based, but i'm not opposed to it. people need cars, we need gas, i'm interested in other methods, i can use those so i will. the power in my are (over 70%) comes from a hyrdo plant, they're not a big huge powerful company, this is washington state and it's not the same as the rest of the country, i do understand that.

Re:hydrogen vs. electric for "scooters"...

[Epistax]

I disagree on one issue: hydrogen is also everywhere. Wherever you have electricity and water, you can easily make hydrogen, the problem is it is very slow. It is not so slow, however, as to totally refute this concept: Someone who owns a hydrogen powered scooter also has a solar panel on his house/window. This current is put through water, where the hydrogen and oxygen then split between the two leads. The hydrogen is gathered (and compressed?).
Now the tough parts:
Unless it's pure water, it likely wont be pure hydrogen (much like how our gasoline isn't pure), which simply means the scooter would need to be more robust.
If compression is needed, this may need to be done by hand using a bike pump type device, etc.
It's going to take an exceedingly long time to get enough hydrogen out of the water.

These aside, unless I've forgotten something major, we've got your semi-free source of hydrogen. While it's entirely possible to do this on a grand scale, I'd have to wonder if the creation of pure oxygen is at all considered pollution, and what it will form first, be it (in best to worst order) H2O, CO2, CO, or O3.

Re:hydrogen vs. electric for "scooters"...

[JanneM]

Use the energy from the solar array to extract hydrogen. That's what the personal refilling system is for, really.

The benefit of hydrogen over direct electricity is that it is easier to store compactly, and you do not incur the energy losses associated with storing electricitly directly.

Re:hydrogen vs. electric for "scooters"...

[DesertFalcon]

What about plain old 02? Or is that not stable to hang around very long?

Re:hydrogen vs. electric for "scooters"...

[DesertFalcon]

Going to have to disagree with you on this one, sorry. When you use electricity to run your vehicle, you're actually being *less* efficient than you would be to simply burn petrol (or hydrogen) in your engine.

Think about it - how is electricity produced? Yes there are some plants that produce clean electricity from wind, water, sun, or nuclear (which is only sort of clean...) but there are still a large number of coal-burning power plants around. Particularly in the US. So instead of burning a fossil fuel in your car and converting that directly to energy, you're burning a fossil fuel at the power plant, turning it into electricity (losing energy in the process,) sending that electricity down power lines to a substation (losing power in the process), from there to your house (or wherever your outlet is,) and through a lot of... I forget what they're called, but they're needed to boost the power periodically. All of these involve a loss of power along the way.

While I appreciate that it's important to find cheaper and cleaner power supplies, and I agree with your efforts to move away from dependency on oil/petrol, I think it's important to realize that using electricity is not necessarily the best (or at least not the most efficient) way to do that.

Re:hydrogen vs. electric for "scooters"...

[listen]

Erm, being in the energy trading biz, I'd love to hear about your methods of storing electricity "directly". It'd sure help us avoid those pesky fines for being out of balance at gate closure...

How do you think a battery works? Clue: it stores the energy chemically. Just like this system.

Re:hydrogen vs. electric for "scooters"...

[Exoman]

Consider, though, that large power plants are massively more efficient, well-maintained and clean than millions individual ICEs combined. One hope for H2, though, is that production can be massively distributed on rooftop solar or other micro plants.

I really hope that the distributed generation model evolves to replace the pretroleum infrastructure (think P2P nodes & Open Source) rather than central companies owning/controlling everything (think Disney, Microsoft & GE).

Re:hydrogen vs. electric for "scooters"...

[JanneM]

I meant batteries (though using a capacitor would arguably be 'direct' storage) - poor choice of words. A battery doesn't approach the energy density of hydrogen, though, and they also lose their charge over time, faster than you'd have slow leaking from the hydrogen tank.

Re:hydrogen vs. electric for "scooters"...

[DesertFalcon]

"Consider, though, that large power plants are massively more efficient, well-maintained and clean than millions individual ICEs combined."

Good point, I hadn't considered that. I think that a distributed rooftop H2 generation scheme would probably be a good idea... if it could be made to work. See other posts for some potential problems.

Re:hydrogen vs. electric for "scooters"...

[meringuoid]

Releasing oxygen is not pollution, and it won't have any terrible effects; the Earth's atmosphere is about 20% oxygen anyway. Also, remember that every oxygen molecule you put out into the atmosphere at your hydrogen refinery will eventually be taken back by an engine burning your hydrogen, so it evens out anyway.

The main problem is that oxygen is an extreme fire hazard. If your installation goes wrong, your home could find its atmosphere enriched in oxygen, and then it wouldn't take much to set the place ablaze.

Re:hydrogen vs. electric for "scooters"...

[joib]

Yes, but fuel cells aren't 100 % efficient either. IIRC, they are usually around 60-70 % efficient.

Re:hydrogen vs. electric for "scooters"...

[drunkenbatman]

i think hydrogen and electric is far better than petroleum, but hydrogen forces me to "fill up"

What do you think a battery does...? Unless it's solar, the electricity you're plugged into was generated somewhere (and probably not hydro-based). You're just filling up for hours instead of a few minutes.

Re:hydrogen vs. electric for "scooters"...

[Alphtoo]

Electricity is not free... If you recharge at home, you're paying for it, and if you do it at work your employer is paying for it. Also, while the electrical power is non-polluting, the power plants are often not. Unless you are using solar panels, wind, or water to generate your electricity, it is an expensive and often very dirty power source.

zip? hah!

[ergonal]

I applaud AQWON's efforts in zipping up the photos to help battle the slashdotting, but unfortunately the first .zip file is 70,224 bytes which contains a .jpg that is 70,160 bytes and 70,110 bytes packed. So zipping the file INCREASED the size! Nice try though, AQWON.

Re:zip? hah!

[Anonymous Coward]

I like the photos with the HOT chick!

Re:zip? hah!

[Anonymous Coward]

Now put your hot maths to work to calculate the difference in bandwidth of hundreds of thousands of people viewing a 70k image, compared to how many will actually download it.

Re:zip? hah!

[Anonymous Coward]

I applaud AQWON's efforts in zipping up the photos to help battle the slashdotting ...

Shoosh. You do know that one common way to force a download instead of in-browser viewing is to zip the damn thing up. That's why you'll occasionally find big-ass videos and such in zips, too. And, since the link is marked "Download" instead of "View larger size", you can be pretty sure that's what they're doing at AQWON.

Great!

[joeytsai]

Now I can go out and replace my gas guzzling scooter with a more environmental one!

Oh, for crying out loud!

[Anonymous Coward]

This story doesn't have anything to do with SCO! Come on, where's today's SCO story? This isn't funny, man, I need my fix!

Safety

[Waffle Iron]

In case of an accident, the tank will freeze and no fire or explosion would occur. Anyone can fill-up the tank on the scooter within 3 to 4 minutes, without being in any danger.

Unfortunately however, failing to learn the lessons of history, the manufacturer coated the scooter with a shiny silver coat of volatile powdered aluminum rocket fuel.

Re:Safety

[Anonymous Coward]

So far, no one "gets" your comment. Especially the modders!

I'm thinking

[Timesprout]

PRO

Cant think of any off hand

CON
I might end up in a lot more pieces than I would like.

Would anyone care to enlighten us as to the point of this scooter? Why is this a good idea, and were the fuck on the high street do I get hydrogen to fuel it

Re:I'm thinking

[WindBourne]

PRO

• Far less pollution (there is still some, but very minimal)
• Multiple sources of energy - oil can be broken into h2, but wind, solar, nuke, etc can also produce it. So can h2o2. Less dependancies on a flakey part of the world.
• Ease of fill, if the vision holds out. This is one of the more major problems. You need filling stations. But you will also be able to fill up at night. h20 + electricity -> fuel when power consumption is very low. great way to even out things.
• Down the road, probable lower costs. One of the problems with electric cars is that if forces the economy to try and adjust many points all at once (fueling, maintenence, and building) . That does not happen easily. It is better to make small changes through out. An all-electric vehicle is ideal in theory, but so far, we are very far from it.
• change helps drive economy.
• a scooter is acceptable as inespensive transportation. buying a 5k item is much easier to accept than a 25K item.
  • 
    CON:
    you will end up in no more peices than a regular scooter would.

Re:I'm thinking

[Anonymous Coward]

Inexpensive transportation? Go back and read the site again; you might discover something interesting.

As far as i know..

[floydman]

that the process of extracting hydrogen for use as fuel is its self polluting...

Hydrogen production from biomass, though promising, is still in the early research and development phase. Basically, biomass includes all organic substances, such as plants, wood chips, bales of straw, liquid manure, and organic wastes. Currently, there is no commercially available process for producing hydrogen from biomass, but the method is to use a high-temperature process to convert biomass into hydrogen and carbon dioxide.

I am no chemist, but biomass from organic substances is polluting....

/*Is there a CHEMIST in the house?!*/

Re:As far as i know..

[GMontag]

Well, that's why I get the hydrogen for my hydrogen powered Jeep at an Exxon station :-)

Oh yes, a side topic, for those that don't know, most "solar cells" are made by the same firms that refine oil.

I have stopped being puzzled by the folks that say they use solar cells because they will not support "big oil", since they have no trouble finding a conspiracy under every unleaded pump, but they are 'unaware' that solar cells are made by energy companies.

Just thought I would mention that before the "solar power" folks swarm over your post.

Re:As far as i know..

[Angry White Guy]

Only on earth. Let's build the H2-Biomass generators on the moon! Then, because hydrogen falls up instead of down (hence its name as the bastard element, and yes I know helium falls up as well, but it wasn't discovered when they named hydrogen), we just wait for the moon to be in the right spot and blow the tanks. The hydrogen will fall up right onto antarctica, where we can build giant H2 scrapers, using the same principles as water scrapers in Dune, and profit!

Re:As far as i know..

[Qzukk]

Hm, someone already warned you about solar cell folks swarming you, so here it is: Hook up a few electricity producing solar cells, drop the leads in a bowl of water, and voila, clean H2 and O2.

Re:As far as i know..

[Istealmymusic]

Hook up a few electricity producing solar cells, drop the leads in a bowl of water, and voila, clean H2 and O2.

For the record, this process can be sped up by adding excess ions to the water solvent. In particular, sulfuric acid.

Hilarious presentation

[Anonymous Coward]

The presentation is just hilarious. Especially the picture where the blonde shows the tube locker. Really German.

Re:Hilarious presentation

[curious.corn]

Last week I saw Bush driving a Japanese official (I think it was the Prime Minister) in a huge SUV, wearing cowboy boots and hat. Really American... (yes, I feel polemic...)

That's what I'm talking about!

[kasper37]

She can pump my hydrogen anytime.

at last

[Councilor Hart]

Finally. This should have been out decades ago. It's time to switch to a hydrogen based economy. There is still the problem of the egg and the chicken. No fuel-stations, no motors, and the other way around. Perhaps this will break the egg problem. Hopefully some gov. takes responsibility and encourages the building of fuel-stations. That would solve the chicken problem. We should get rid of fossil fuels, and switch to hydrogen and nuclear power. Once we have fusion, we can stop the fission-based power plants. And in a hundred years or so, we'll feel comfortable in space. Meaning that putting something safely in space won't be a big problem or safety-risk. Then we can take all that nuclear waste, shoot it in small packets off the planet towards the sun. I don't think she would mind that much. I don't have a driver licence, and I refuse to get one if it means riding around in a fossil based vehicle. Perhaps the day I'll get one is coming closer. Actually It's more a symbolic action, my dad drives me around if needed. That's about once a week. Yes, I am old enough to have a drivers licence. No, I don't work yet. Yes, it will be difficult to maintain this silent protest once I have a job. A quote I learned at school, I forgot from whom though: "Oil is not a fuel. Better to heat with paper money."

Re:at last

[Timesprout]

It's time to switch to a hydrogen based economy.

To get the ball rolling I will purchase your PC . stereo and TV/Video/DVD for a bucket of water. The water is safe to transport and you can extract the hydrogen at your leisure.

I look forward to doing business with you

Re:at last

[Anonymous Coward]

I find your beliefs comical. Not to mention totally without merit.

Re:at last

[Councilor Hart]

"I find your beliefs comical." Thanks, I have many more like them. One day, It was funny to think we would ever go the moon. Not wanting a driver licence is my choice, and mine alone. Feel free to find that comical. But I do hope that you don't find switching to a hydrogen based economy comical. Or keeping nuclear power plants around comical. Perhaps the notion that fusion will ever work is funny as well? Well I guess, that now America has conquered Iraq, the USA has all the oil it needs. So why switch, he? Well, in less then 20 years the peak production of oil will be behind us. I guess that when needed, we can all switch from oil to hydrogen in a matter of days when the oil runs out. Oh, nope, I don't think so. I find that comical. So, what's wrong with switching?

Oh, the humanity! (NT)

[lendude]

nt

Alternative-powered vehicles seem to be crippled..

[Sleepy]

There seem to be a number of "alternative" vehicles, but even if you ignore cost, refueling, etc. in the USA they are impractical for one major reason:

You can't drive them in enough places.

I DON'T expect these things to drive on the interstate highways at 55+ MPH, but...

AFAIK, most of the electric and other alt-vehicles will do 30MPH (48kph). That's great if you ONLY want to drive through your city center but it's useless anywhere else. Not just this vehicle, but lots of alt vehicles are governed to very low speeds, and then you have general cars/motorbikes/trucks. There's nothing in-between.

Most cities have flattened out into suburban sprawl. Here there are as many people (and jobs) AS the city proper. Good luck driving anything limited to 30MPH on a 40MPH road: it may be legal, but you'll probably be pulled over by an ignorant policeman (or one trying to protect you from the 30 cars tailgating and making illegal passes around you).

There are a lot of drivers who believe if you impede their progress, you are stealing their lifeforce and so you are attacking them and they must defend themselves by going into "road rage" mode.

I'm not kidding either. It's perfectly legal to pedal your bike on most non-interstate (highway) roads, but unless it has a wide paved margin/edge like a breakdown lane, good luck... you'll be run off the road. The police generally aren't interested unless you are seriously hurt or someone recently died. In my small city, they ticket bikes on the sidewalk but not hostile drivers.

Sorry for the rant. An alternative-powered scooter would be SWEET if it ran 40mph with a range of 100 miles. Then you could drive to work and back without feeling like you were "asking for trouble" on the road.

hindenbike?

[JeanBaptiste]

looks like it could turn into a rocket scooter with some minor modifications... oh the humanity!

That guy is a mechanican!

[Bender_]

The inventor of the motor seems to be a simple mechanican - he has no formal training on theory and engine design. Since he obviously lacks background I am extremeley skeptical about the engine. It may work - but I am sure there are many additional things that have to be taken care of.

Re:That guy is a mechanican!

[borgboy]

That's a pretty lame statement. He did get approval from TUV. A lack of formal certification does not a lack of knowledge confer. There are innumerable examples I could enumerate, but then they wouldn't be innumerable.

Re:That guy is a mechanican!

[Anonymous Coward]

Erm... Einstein... patent clerk...

No extra maintenance?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no extra maintenance service required.

How about maintaining your image as you ride by in a scooter. Does it come with a pretty pink bow?

Re:Alternative-powered vehicles seem to be cripple

[vivIsel]

Alternative-powered vehicles seem to be crippled..

Not this one.

Dimensions: 3.84m, 1.72m, 1.75m
Weight: 720 kg
Maximum speed: 130 kmh
Autonomy: 200 to 300 km
Recharging: 4 hours (electric)
Recharging: 3 minutes (air station)

The American's caused the Hindenburg disaster

[Anonymous Coward]

The American's were unable to deliver the German's the promised amount of helium, due in no small part to the Helium Control Act of 1927, which made it illegal to export helium.

The Hindenburg was yet another FINE example of German engineering. The American's just couldn't back up their promises, and presto, you have a disaster.

Re:The American's caused the Hindenburg disaster

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the height of stupidity to claim anyone but the german engineers that filled the damn thing with hydrogen are responsible. If the design required helium, then they should have scrapped the design.

Re:The American's caused the Hindenburg disaster

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank God they had the foresight. If that act hadn't passed when it did, Hitler could have made our valiant Allied troops sound like Munchkins. The horror.

Re:The American's caused the Hindenburg disaster

[borgboy]

And then....the horrible horrible unclean Americans (no, an apostrophe is not an s signaling for right-of-way) went to Germany and forced the German engineers to fly the bomb anyway?

Re:The American's caused the Hindenburg disaster

[jcochran]

Yes, and take a look at the number of U-boats that were spotted and sunk because of helium filled blimbs. Helium was a stratigic war material and the US was not about to believe that any helium given to Germany for the Hindenburg would stay in the Hindenburg.

Re:The American's caused the Hindenburg disaster

[CommieOverlord]

In 1927 did americans really think that Germany would go to war with them again?

Re:The American's caused the Hindenburg disaster

[Alphtoo]

Of course we did. I'll bet we even gave them the technology to make rocket-fuel based paint for it! Might have even sold them the paint! We can be really naughty sometimes. However, the Hindenburg would not have flown on helium because of its rigid (and heaver) design than, say, the Goodyear Blimp, which is non-rigid. It required hydrogen.

Nitpick

[Ed Avis]

The story contains a typo - the power output is about 2.6kW, not 2.6kWh (which would be a measure of energy).

Of course, if you are like the freezer manufacturer who quoted their product's power consumption in 'kilowatt hours per week', you could say that the scooter produces 2.6kWh per hour...

Re:Nitpick

[ncc74656]

Of course, if you are like the freezer manufacturer who quoted their product's power consumption in 'kilowatt hours per week'

Considering that electricity is sold by the kWh, this isn't unreasonable...you can multiply kWh/wk by the $/kWh given on your last bill and get $/wk fairly easily, which is what you would want to know when you're in the market for a fridge.

(That said, the article's usage of kWh was incorrect. Furthermore, given that we're dealing with a mechanical device and not an electric device, they probably should've said 3.5 hp instead of 2.6 kW...engine power is normally expressed in horsepower.)

Re:Nitpick

[Ed Avis]

That may be true... but if people calculate cost per week why isn't the unit of electricity billing the kilowatt-week? Every other electric device gives power consumption (or power output, if you prefer) in watts or kilowatts. Better to say 'power consumption N kilowatts, which means 168 * N kilowatt hours per week'. Then at least you are giving the sane units as well.

Engine power is often given in horsepower but that's a crazy and obsolete unit - move to kW now! </metric-troll>

Hydrogen combustion is actually polluting

[orzetto]

I don't think pollution is a problem for hydrogen engines -- they don't burn hydrocarbons.

Actually it is. Hydrogen combustion does not generate CO2, but it has inherent problems with high-temperature combustion. This means, there is going to be high air excess to lower the actual temperature in order to avoid needing a tungsten engine which would be a bit expensive.

This high air excess will in turn cause a massive production of NOx, a highly pollutant compound (actually they are two, NO and NO2) that is caused by the high-temperature combustion. It is quite reactive and is one of the most toxic stuffs a petrol car spits out.

This is a known problem with H2 combustion engines. If you want a zero-emission engine, you have to use H2 with fuel cells, not in piston engines.

Is that "airspeed" ?

[jlrowe]

AQWON's top speed is about 50 km/h (31 mph), the power is 2.6 kWh and the weight is minimal.

If this thing is filled with hydrogen, will the weight be less that nothing? In other words, will it float midair? If so, what is the airspeed?

Hey, this could be cool! I want one of these!!!

Re:Is that "airspeed" ?

[Anonymous Coward]

*incoming Clue by Four*

Suggested retail price: $87,000

[Call Me Black Cloud]

Yes, it's cool, but I felt poorer just after reading the submission.

Let's see, besides the cost of the bike there's 10 years of effort to pay for. And of course, everyone is going to want one of these filling stations around the house, attractively displayed by a model with a hint of belly showing.

The $87k? I made that up so don't start with me about it :)

Re:Suggested retail price: $87,000

[hansiboy]

from here:
AQWON's high speed is about 50 km/h (31m/h), the power is 2,6 kWh and the weight is minimal. There is no maintenance service required. Everything is included in the price of 5.600,-- EURO for this very new zero-emission-scooter. The official presentation will be held at the fair Hannover Messe Industrie in April 2003 in Germany.

So its not someting i vould call cheap...

Re:Suggested retail price: $87,000

[CAIMLAS]

I didn't read the article - this is slashdot, after all - but I'm pretty sure the exchange rate doesn't equal 5.6 euros -> 87k USD. Even if that's supposed to be a coma instead of a period, I don't believe the excachange rate is 1/15.5 in favor of the euro.

Application I wanna see

[nounderscores]

Actually, it's a tiny clean motor with nonexplosive fuel storage so I want to see some scaled up versions powering the hydraulic system of those gun toting powered exoskeletons we see in Matrix Reloaded guarding gate three!

Imagine what it would be like to run down the street in one of those!

Definition of "Scooter"

[PinkoHeretic]

When someone says scooter I picture the toy Razor Scooters or a Segway, both of which have the rider standing on a flat platform. This is really a Moped, which is much more practical. The presentation also shows something which they call a Moped, but which actually looks like a full motorcycle. Riding a hydrogen powered motorcycle would not be at all embarrissing compared to riding something like a Segway.

Re:Definition of "Scooter"

[ddriver]

Mopeds have pedals like bicycles. Hence 'ped' in the name.

Re:Definition of "Scooter"

[Naurgrim]

Nonononono...

These are scooters.

This is a motorcycle.

Re:Definition of "Scooter"

[CAIMLAS]

I've always called razor-type scooters (and their non-motor kin) "scooters".

Motorcycles are things like Hondas, Indians, and (ecpt) Harley Ds.

Mopeds are (as someone else menitoned) have pedals. You escalate your speed by pedaling, and you're supplimented by a motor. I don't know how fast they can go, but I've only seen one of these before.

Things such as this, as well as vespas and other small motorized items, I've always called "motoscooters". It seems like an apt name.

Re:Definition of "Scooter"

[ncc74656]

Mopeds have pedals like bicycles. Hence 'ped' in the name.

Most states have some legal definition of "moped" that covers any self-propelled two-wheel vehicle (or maybe even a three-wheel vehicle) that falls within certain speed, power, and/or engine-displacement limits (in Nevada, for instance, it's a top speed of 30 mph and a maximum displacement of 50 cc). This covers everything from the mopeds you saw people riding in the 80s to gas-/electric-powered scooters to bicycles with engines/motors attached to them. This definition is usually for purposes of setting license and registration requirements (here, you need a driver's license (doesn't have to be a motorcycle license), but a moped doesn't have to be registered or insured).

Sweet

[gfilion]

I don't know why, but I'm really attracted by this scooter.

Those germans sure know about marketing...

GFK's

Re:Sweet

[CAIMLAS]

Mac is the Harley-Davidson of computers.

So what are you saying, exactly, by this signature? Are you truely intending to say that macs are stylish and trendy, but don't hold a match to their competition in terms of performance, quality, and innovation? Surely you must be kidding.

Macs are generally everything that they claim to be, and (can practically) outperform PCs of similar costs, now that you can get an iMac for what, 800$? Most PCs are a haphazardly thrown together pile of last-generation hardware for the most minimal cost. Macs, on the other hand, usually have some mettle. You have to build your own PC to get the kind of hardware that entry level Macs come with by default.

And no, I'm not a mac fanatic. I don't even own a Mac (unless you count the pile of lc630s, G3 233MHz, and various 'integrated' monitor and system units I've got sitting around in storage, but they're not getting used). I can't afford macs. (heck, I can barely afford a PC)

Re:Sweet

[TobiasSodergren]

Are you saying that Apple isn't paying you enough for promoting Macs on Slashdot?

Re:Sweet

[gfilion]

gfilion wrote:
Mac is the Harley-Davidson of computers.
CAIMLAS wrote:
So what are you saying, exactly, by this signature? Are you truely intending to say that macs are stylish and trendy, but don't hold a match to their competition in terms of performance, quality, and innovation? Surely you must be kidding.

I came up with that tought when watching a documentary on Discovery channel about the design of the new Harley V-Rod. The way they design their bike really striked me as being similar to the way Apple design a Mac. They have a vision, and they design every part of the thing to be in accordance with the vision.

You can buy a perfectly good Honda bike that will perform its duties, but some people want to buy a Harley because they love the spirit of the bike. I have the same feeling about the Mac and PCs, I could buy a PC that would do everything I want it to do, but I prefer to buy a Mac because I love the its spirit.

GFK's
PS: I don't know much about bikes; but I saw a biker once who was wearing a T-Shirt with "If you can read this, the chick felt down" written on its back. That must be worth something.

Re:Sweet

[CAIMLAS]

Hrm, there's an idea for money!

Re:Alternative-powered vehicles seem to be cripple

[ddriver]

So what about all of those gas powered scooters tht are out there now? Do you see people trying to drive them on the interstate/freeway/highway? No, because it is illegal to have them there. Do people drive gas powered scooters from suburbia to metropolis? No, that isn't what they were designed for. How would thease scooters be any different? Would it suddenly become leagal to drive them on the interstate?

This is sort of like whining about not being able to row boat to the moon. That isn't what it was intended for.

fueling station fits inside a cabinet

[nounderscores]

The fueling station fits inside a cabinet. the multimedia presentation shows a person posing with it, where it is installed next to a washing machine. The fueling station appears to be some kind of electrolosys device connected to mains water and power (site says that solar power might have enough energy to do a good job too) and storing the hydrogen in ordinary looking gas cylinders. Refueling takes 3 to 4 minutes according to the website (click the link to "Description of innovation" on this page - they like to put their info in little popups) and provides enough fuel for a 100km range.

The engine is oil free by virtue of design (uses some other lubrication method which they don't describe), and is very light.

I think that there might be a future in installing coin-op/creditcard refuel points in colleges and public transport hubs. All you need is water, power and city approval.

Re:fueling station fits inside a cabinet

[Anonymous Coward]

All you need is water, power and city approval.

We don't live in a Democracy; NO APPROVAL FROM CORPORATIONS (cities).

We, The People, live in a Republic. In a Republic, The People is the principle that may create lawful entities (corporations, state, church, etc) and these lawful entities CAN'T diminish the rights of The People without due process of law.

A city doesn't own the power; whoever buys it owns it. And anyone that conditionaly purchases property whereas the conditions of purchase limit your use, I suggest you create a "liberty" product that competes with those that try to diminish your rights with due process of the law. Yes, you can sign your rights away by contract...the United States (corporation) has been doing this ever since 1871 with the unlawful ratification of the 14th ammendment to the Constitution of the 13 united States of America.

Liberty...Tea...French Fries...

For those of you pseudo liberty people that want to take "French" from "French Fries" and "French Toast" and "Frist Post" should be ashamed at your own circumstances of thinking such. You are in no way allowed to speak your mind without permission; you signed your rights away and act on corporate-granted privileges! HAHAHA Stupid Americans!

Re:fueling station fits inside a cabinet

[Guppy06]

"The engine is oil free by virtue of design"

*ahem*

"The fueling station appears to be some kind of electrolosys device connected to mains water and power"

Because we all know that electricity comes from the magic electron pixies living in our walls!

"(site says that solar power might have enough energy to do a good job too)"

Depends on weather and deed restricitions.

Amazing..

[Anonymous Coward]

It's amazing that the Hindenburg disaster still causes Hydrogen paranoia today. Even after it was proven that the hydrogen didnt contribute much to ther disaster (lesson: dont use huighly flammable material). After Titanic, how come we still have ships?

Re:Amazing..

[taliver]

After Titanic, how come we still have ships?

Actually, the question would be, "After the Titanic, why do we have icebergs?"

Take off

[jabbadabbadoo]

Nice. When you crash this thing, it automatically goes into take off mode.

Prepare for a rough landing, though.

Re:Alternative-powered vehicles seem to be cripple

[donscarletti]

ignorant policeman

Dunno about where you are from, but in Australia we have two main driving based offences that are criminal: Driving in a manner dangerous to the public, and driving at a speed dangerous to the public. These laws are to leave a loophole for magistrates so that they can procicute any smartarse doing something that is risking other people's lives but are legal according to all the other laws. So if you are driving at 10km/h on a freeway, you could be arrested and charged criminally for driving so slow that you are an obstruction, and that would probably stick... and sting bad unless you had a damn good reason, and IFAIK environmental protection does not count.

But after all, you can't spell IANAL without anal... for some reason that seemed relivant.

would the hose recoil?

[nounderscores]

I don't think that the H2 is in liquid form. The site seems to indicate that it is stored at quite low pressure.

Is 50 bar enough to be dangerous? SCUBA tanks are 230 bar

Re:Alternative-powered vehicles seem to be cripple

[the uNF cola]

In America, it's the same. If you drive TOO slow on any road, believe me, they'll fine you for either endangerment or some other traffic violation.

Lubrication?

[jhines]

How is the engine lubed? Gas two cycle engines "burn" the lubricating oil, a not terribly environmentally friendly process.

Re:Lubrication?

[hansiboy]

I think there are two stroke engines wich have oil pan lubrication in the same way as bigger engines.(although i could be wrong, and i can't think of any specific examples.) But i guess bigger two stroke motor cycles like 250-500 ccm "?motoGP class?" racing cycles don't have mixed fuel/oil or oil injection

Re:Lubrication?

[MZdoctor]

Spark ignition two-strokes invariably have crankcase scavenging, Diesel two-strokes have separate scavenge pumps. Any engine employing crankcase scavenging eventually loses its oil through the combustion chamber, however decades of work on engine design and lubricants allow the use of ridiculously lean oiling ratios (like 200:1) with clean-burning bio-degradable lubricants. The current breed of two-strokes such as seen on European roads is virtually smoke free. Racing two-strokes still use premix - you can't beat it for reliability!

I can just picture it

[Anonymous Coward]

Their first commercial, "Blick ist es das Hindenscooter"

if it's true it's good news

[nounderscores]

Very nice. I like the way you can recharge it overnight at home, AND in three min at an air station. Interesting how it uses the force from the expanding piston to compress atmospheric air from in the compressing piston and heat the pistonface to 400C before injecting compressed air and letting the 400C gasses expand and cool to 30C.

Very nice vehicle. I'm sure some overclockers will install piston heaters to get the peak face temp higher without using combustion...

Re:if it's true it's good news

[Antity-H]

Very nice vehicle. I'm sure some overclockers will install piston heaters to get the peak face temp higher without using combustion...

No they won't, they will just use the pistons as thermal dissipators for their 4GHz clocked 3GHz Itaniums or Opterons :). /humour

Hydrogen did not cause the Hindenburg fire

[The Original Yama]

For many years it was claimed that the Hindenburg caught alight because of its hydrogen. Recent investigations have proven this to be false. Hydrogen burns clear, but the Hindenburg fire was not clear at all. It is most likely that the paint on the exterior of the Zeppelin was the cause: chemical analysis shows its composition to be similar to rocket fuel.

Re:Alternative-powered vehicles seem to be cripple

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not kidding either. It's perfectly legal to pedal your bike on most non-interstate (highway) roads, but unless it has a wide paved margin/edge like a breakdown lane, good luck... you'll be run off the road.

It is perfectly legal to ride your bike on non highway/interstate roads......IF YOU CAN KEEP UP WITH THE SPEED OF TRAFFIC.

I have seen plenty of people pedalling their bikes going so slow and holding up traffic for miles. I would like to run the fuckers over and teach the rest of you bastards a lesson. You are a danger to yourself and others when you are not going at the speed of traffic and are not obeying the laws of the road and I have seen more than my share of assholes on bikes just fly right through stop signs, stop lights, yields, etc because they know if they are hit they will win the court case.

Also, when you look in your rearview mirror and see 20+ cars piled up behind you and people are dangerously passing you on the left because you are taking your happy time......then pull over and let the people pass, people have much better things to do than drive like grandma on sunday because you are a pussy.

And, time is the most limited resource we have....and if you are holding up traffic then you are stealing their lifeforce by stealing their time thus they wouldnt have been able to do one other little thing that would have made their pathetic lives at least a little more enjoyable.

Re:Alternative-powered vehicles seem to be cripple

[JanneM]

The size, effect and top speed is quite understandable. In Europe, those are the limits for a scooter that you are allowed to drive at the age of 15 and without a driver's license. That speed is also the normal speed for city traffic, and the way many european cities are organized, there is no problem driving such a machine to and from work, for example.

No problem so long as

[nounderscores]

the market value of that water is equal to the trade value of the aformentioned goods.

It'd be a big bucket, but it's doable.

no evian please.

What the magic scooter....

[Mossfoot]

... DISAPPEAR!

As much as I'd like to see this take off, I'm willing to bet it will either die from lack of interest, or too much differing interest. Sucks to be capitalists.

Hydrogen Engines Are Not Pollution-Free

[BigBlockMopar]

I wonder how well a standard compressor (relatively cheap) would do with Hydrogen. I expect that the pressure in the fuel tank is likely higher than an average compressor can reach.

Part of the problem is the size of hydrogen. Hydrogen doesn't just hang around as hydrogen, it forms H2 molecules for a little more chemical stability. Even though these are larger than H atoms, the molecules are still tiny enough that they seep through the walls of cast iron tanks (the way acetylene does, but worse). Anything which will seep through cast iron is not suitable for use on a motor vehicle, for what should be obvious safety reasons.

The coupler (...) has to close on disconnect so that your tanks don't leak and you don't wind up getting your skull crushed when the hose recoils (think uncontrolled fire hose here).

Yes. And given both the pressure and the extremely tiny size of the molecules, the coupler will be non-trivial. Ordinary wear and tear - what's that coupler gonna look like after 5 Boston winters? How safe will it be?

Will the coupler be reliable enough that we can safely park these things in underground parking garages? (Unlike many propane vehicles.)

Hydrogen generation is just water+electricity, although I'm not sure what goes into seperating the H2 from the O2 in the air. I've never bothered, since my goal in generating hydrogen was to make a test tube explode. (there are also chemical reactions which generate only H2, however these require something else to be added to the water... like aluminumm, which forms aluminum oxide and H2.)

In any case, in our atmosphere and environment (as opposed to space), hydrogen's lowest energy state is in compounds. When you break hydrogen out of water, for example, you're increasing the potential energy of the system. Which means that you have to add energy to the system.

Hydrogen as a fuel is often pushed by tree-huggers with arts degrees as being a panacea, a clean source of energy. It's not. Like a rechargeable battery, it's merely a tool to store energy.

The energy to split the hydrogen out of compounds must be coming from somewhere. How do you do it? Primarily with existing electric generation techniques - coal, nuclear, hydroelectric dams... there's no free lunch, and solar, wind, wave power have yet to demonstrate economic or even environmental viability despite Greenpeace and David Suzuki jumping up and down telling us to use them.

So your non-pollutiong hydrogen car actually pollutes. However, because the pollution isn't coming from a familiar tailpipe, it's out of sight and out of mind.

On top of that, the chemical process of burning hydrogen generates only water vapor, the exact same amount of water which was destroyed to make the hydrogen in the first place. There's no net change. That's all well and good, but so far, practical hydrogen engines (as opposed to fuel cells) are still internal combustion engines. They still operate on the four-stroke or two-stroke Otto cycles. And presumably, you're not gonna carry a stoichiometrically correct tank of pure oxygen with you in yout vehicle when O2 makes up 21% of the atmosphere.

Therefore, you will be burning hydrogen in air, firing a spark plug when the piston is at the top of its travel, therefore in a compressed environment. Funny thing is that air is mostly nitrogen, and that nitrogen does actually burn at high temperatures and pressures.

N2 combines with O2 to form NOx compounds, which create the yellow haze in smog.

NOx compounds are unstable at our temperatures and pressures, so eventually NOx compounds break down on their own. But they're unpleasant. In the 1970s, the EPA pushed EGR systems (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) onto cars and reduced the compression ratios to reduce the peak flame temperatures in the engine and lessen NOx production. Indeed, these "enhancements" also cut efficiency and power of the engine, which decreased gas mileage and meant that more CO2 was being generated. (Essentially, the tree huggers decided

Re:Hydrogen Engines Are Not Pollution-Free

[Reziac]

Interesting points. Yeah, the higher temps would tend to cause more and different reactions in the air itself, even when the H2/O2 aren't directly involved. As to the seepage issue, is there any way to channel this, such as by lining the tank with a thick layer of some material that the H2 would tend to ooze along more than through? (thinking a sort of directed capilary action)

And I can imagine the, ah, acceleration if the tank suffers a puncture wound, or gets the bib knocked off. Story from one of my college chem professors, from when he was a lad in school: seems someone knocked over a compressed gas tank (I don't recall what was in it) and broke the unshielded valve off. The tank, propelled by its rapidly-escaping contents, went through the solid brick wall of the building, entirely through another brick building, and finally stopped after breaching the wall of a third brick building some 300 yards away. (Fortunately, no one got squished.) Can you say "land torpedo"??!

Re:Hydrogen Engines Are Not Pollution-Free

[nmos]

Even though these are larger than H atoms, the molecules are still tiny enough that they seep through the walls of cast iron tanks (the way acetylene does, but worse). Anything which will seep through cast iron is not suitable for use on a motor vehicle, for what should be obvious safety reasons.

That depends entirely on how much seepage you're talking about. It's like saying that since gas stations emit gas into the air it's obviously unsafe to have cars around them.

This is OT but the company that supplies my propane has it's storage facilities located right next to a welding supply company and despite the obvious danger they've survived for several years now.

The energy to split the hydrogen out of compounds must be coming from somewhere. How do you do it? Primarily with existing electric generation techniques - coal, nuclear, hydroelectric dams... there's no free lunch,

No shit? Anyone whose thought about this for more than about 2 seconds has to have figured this out by now. The usual counter to this is that it's still a lot more effecient to produce the energy in a central facility than in a million mini generators, let alone in a moving vehicle.

think a gasoline tank fire is bad? Never mind the fire itself for a moment: Wait 'til you see a car accident where a 2" diameter hole is put into the 1000PSI fuel tank of a 2500 pound car...

Hopefully no one is planning to store the stuff at that high of a pressure. Personally I'd rather have a fuel that floats up above the accident and singes a few birds than one that spills out all over the ground/people/whatever.

Re:Hydrogen Engines Are Not Pollution-Free

[WolfWithoutAClause]

Anything which will seep through cast iron is not suitable for use on a motor vehicle, for what should be obvious safety reasons.

Oh pulllleeeeze you don't build a hydrogen engine out of cast iron!

I've driven around in plenty of aluminum block engines, aluminum and hydrogen are compatible materials (e.g. the space shuttle hydrogen filled tank is made from it).

The energy to split the hydrogen out of compounds must be coming from somewhere. How do you do it? Primarily with existing electric generation techniques - coal, nuclear, hydroelectric dams... there's no free lunch, and solar, wind, wave power have yet to demonstrate economic or even environmental viability despite Greenpeace and David Suzuki jumping up and down telling us to use them. So your non-pollutiong hydrogen car actually pollutes.

Let's get this straight. You're claiming that hydroelectric, nuclear and solar energy directly pollute? Huh? Sure when you build them, you might get some pollution depending on how you do it, but once you've built them; no.

NOx compounds are unstable at our temperatures and pressures, so eventually NOx compounds break down on their own.

Yes. And isn't this what a catalytic converter does?

Hydrogen burns extremely hot. What will the NOx emissions of a hydrogen engine be?

Depends. Just like with petrol engines you can change the mixure ratio of the combustion to change the combustion temperature. You can even inject water.

Re:Hydrogen Engines Are Not Pollution-Free

[Qzukk]

Anything which will seep through cast iron is not suitable for use on a motor vehicle, for what should be obvious safety reasons.

I can't find anything on this in google. About how many molecules of H2 per cm^2 per second are we looking at? Significantly more than the amount of hydrogen already in the atmosphere? Enough so to induce flammability under otherwise normal circumstances?

The energy to split the hydrogen out of compounds must be coming from somewhere. How do you do it? Primarily with existing electric generation techniques - coal, nuclear, hydroelectric dams... there's no free lunch

Yes, but there is one advantage to using existing electrical facilities. Unlike individual people driving around, large companies can be successfully (read: systematically enforced) required to meet emissions standards. They tend to have the capital required to install scrubbers, flares, and other equipment that the average motorist doesn't care about, and wouldn't spend the $10,000 for anyways.

they've got 2-stroke engines. Which means mixing fuel and oil. Given that hydrogen reacts with most metals and probably burns hot enough to melt a lot of them, I would guess that this would be eliminated by using a ceramic engine (Si^2 to be exact) which requires no lubrication or coolant.

Wait 'til you see a car accident where a 2" diameter hole is put into the 1000PSI fuel tank of a 2500 pound car... (do some math and tell me what happens...)

Here's your math right here: PV=nRT

What does that mean? It means that when you punch a 2 inch hole in your tank, P)ressure drops. A lot. V)olume increases, but since the molecules are unable to instantly teleport away, it cannot increase as quickly as P drops. The amount of the gas (n) stays the same, and (R) stays the same unless a nuclear reaction occurs, in which case you have a whole host of other problems.

This leaves (T)emperature. Since the left hand side is reducing over all (remember, P---, V+) and n and R are constant, then T must reduce as well. Thus the claim the manufacturer makes that in the event of a puncture, the tank will freeze rather than burst into flame. (Hopefully they've designed enough strength into the tank that it can maintain integrity while frozen, though.) ((Hopefully the mass stored in the tank is relatively small compared to the mass of the vehicle overall, as well, otherwise your 2" hole will push your vehicle around.))

So yes, there are drawbacks, and yes, unless pure Oxygen is used, NO* will be generated.

So, you have a better idea? I'd love to see it.

doom and gloom bitch bitch bitch

[Anonymous Coward]

Even though these are larger than H atoms, the molecules are still tiny enough that they seep through the walls of cast iron tanks (the way acetylene does, but worse). Anything which will seep through cast iron is not suitable for use on a motor vehicle, for what should be obvious safety reasons.

You can keep your cast iron automobile. I'm going hydrogen.

Re:doom and gloom bitch bitch bitch

[Paradise Pete]

You can keep your cast iron automobile. I'm going hydrogen

No matter how it makes you feel, It's not a matter of will. You can't just "decide" it's going to work, and then be tooling around in your hydromobile.

Lets hope

[molnarcs]

The pressure sensor will transmit the data to a computer chip, which will then accumulate and send the necessary information, regarding the proper hydrogen mixture, to the injection jet.

Lets hope that chip doesn't run on WindowsCE. A crash during the calculation of the proper hydrogen mixture could be most unfortunate.

http://asia.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=t ec hnologyNews&storyID=2722182

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9471

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t272-s2132851,0 0. html

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/190773/bmw ce .jpg

Re:Lets hope

[ozric99]

Only on /. could a story about a hydrogen powered scooter provoke a "Micr0s0ft suxx0rs" reaction ;)

Hydrogen and public fear.

[MongooseCN]

When people think of hydrogen they think of the Hindenburg burning up. As it turns out it was not the hydrogen that caused the Hindenburg to burn, it was the coating on the balloon.

It's funny how people who fear using hydrogen to power anything still pump natural gas directly into their kitchen stove.

It's still hard to beat a bicycle

[restive]

For low purchase, fuel, and maintenance costs, it's hard to beat a bicycle. Not only that, but it's healthy for you, and 30MPH is doable if you're in good shape on a touring bike.

Re:Alternative-powered vehicles seem to be cripple

[Anonymous Coward]

"unless it has a wide paved margin/edge like a breakdown lane, good luck... you'll be run off the road"

You should pick up a copy of bicycling magazine when the do their 10 best places to cycle issue. Currently Colorado Springs and the northern suburbs of Atlanta (Alpharetta and up) are among the most cyclist-friendly.

Hydrogen = Unsafe (Hindenburg?!?)

[Exoman]

Or not. That depends on whether one looks at spectacular video or at the facts behind it.

In terms of undeserved bad raps, H2 safety must be at the top the all-time list. Hydrogen burning was *NOT* the disaster of the Hindenburg.

I hope that /.ers and the general public can appreciate how safe hydrogen really is in comparison to other fuels.

How about some higher profiles to hydrogen safety demonstrations?

Anything that burns has safety hazards. H2 safety with proper engineering will be far safer than the gasoline bombs we now haul around under our vehicles.

Fat Chicks and Hydrogen Powered Scooters

[Superfreaker]

They're both cool, until your friends see you riding one.

natural gas.

[rebelcool]

The normal way to generate hydrogen is to crack it out of natural gas. I've read of hydrogen 'appliances' under development that are hooked up to a home's gas main as a way of refueling various hydrogen vehicles until real hydrogen filling stations becomes a reality.

Re:Alternative-powered vehicles seem to be cripple

[SubtleNuance]

Most cities have flattened out into suburban sprawl.

Which itself is 95% of the "transportation problem" -- people spreading out across the landscape needlessly.

if there was greater density in NorthAmerican ciites, we could EASILY cut down our pollution drastically if mixed-use development, and high-density residences were encouraged. Sprawl wastes tax money (increased services, useless road cleaning/building, etc) NOT just pollution and environmental disaster...

No, You're not.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're just another sheep who wants it done for you.

Re:No, You're not.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're just another sheep who goes around calling other people sheep. And don't bother calling me a sheep.

faraday cage instead of thermite paint

[js7a]

If the design required helium, then they should have scrapped the design.

s/scrapped/revised

In general, the size and shape of the thing was really good. However, the materials were a big problem for the engineers, and they were tight-lipped about exactly why, but one of them spilled the beans.

When you transition from He to H, you need to defend against sparks. Someone thought that conductive paint would do the trick, but they didn't see that using thermite paint was defeating the whole purpose.

What they really wanted was stainless steel, low-weight chicken wire on the outside of the membrane. This was likely rejected for aesthetic reasons, with form over function.

Overall score: Utilitarians: 10, Aesthetes: -50

Re:Alternative-powered vehicles seem to be cripple

[pafrusurewa]

Most cities have flattened out into suburban sprawl.

Right, that's the situation in the U.S. with its artificial cities. Keep in mind though that this scooter hasn't been invented in America. There are plenty of places where driving a scooter seems practical enough that people do it. Italy and Southeast Asia come to mind.

An alternative-powered scooter would be SWEET if it ran 40mph with a range of 100 miles. Then you could drive to work and back without feeling like you were "asking for trouble" on the road.

America again.

Re:Alternative-powered vehicles seem to be cripple

[Paddyish]

What? Alternative vehicles don't have enough performance? In Maine they do (and anyone who tells that it's impossible is lying).

Check out the UMaine Solar Vehicle Team's projects.

The Phantom Sol (fully electric) has a top speed of well over 120MPH, 400ft/lbs of torque, and a range of over 100 miles at highway speeds (65-75 mph). The 0-60mph time is around 8-9 seconds, depending on road conditions.

Using a 280HP 9" DC motor with 1800-amp controller (yes, 1800 DC amps - there's some thick wires inside), a 6-speed Camaro transmission and a 75-lb dual-friction racing clutch, the drive train is still relatively inexpensive (about $4000). And it has the performance of a slightly modified V-8 block. And all that's backed-up with 40 large lead-acid batteries. (another $4000)

It's street legal...and a joy to drive :oD

And since this always comes up:
Yes, electricity is often generated by burning oil. But burning it in a power plant is far more efficient than burning it in your car. And, with electric cars...the potential is there for green energy, should such a situation arise.

P.S. Did I mention the cool rear-view cameras recently installed? :o)

I'd Still go for the Hybrid MotorCycle

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll stick with the hybrid motorcycles.
http://www.ecycle.com/powersports/hy brid.htm

At a top speed of 80mph, the ecycle can even go on the interstate.

Crippled alt-energy vehicles - Bullshit

[just fiddling around]

I only got two words for people who think electric vehicles are crippled:GM.EV1.

0-60mph in 9 secs
Top speed(electronically regulated): 80 mph
Range: 75 to 130 miles per charge

This is the car GM says it could not sell. Maybe it's because it was only for lease... Or maybe because there was a 6-month waiting list to get one...

Re:Crippled alt-energy vehicles - Bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

> I only got two words for people who think electric vehicles are crippled:GM.EV1.

They're still crippled by the fact that Detroit doesn't *want* to build non-oil burning cars.

Detroit and Oil are traditional allies... trying to break up their relationship is like asking the National Rifle Association to support a ban on bribes/campaign contributions to US politicians... good luck!

PEM electrolysis?

[js7a]

I think the video thing is totally slashdotted.

Perhaps the electrolysis uses a fuel cell running in reverse?

Re:Alternative-powered vehicles seem to be cripple

[anthony_dipierro]

You can't drive them in enough places.

Maybe that's something that should be solved. After all, there are millions of people who average less than 30 mph on their way to work every day. If highways would ditch the carpool lane and turn it into a scooter lane maybe we'd see more use. Or better yet, keep the carpool lane, let scooters use it, and make the maximum speed 30 mph.

Those are just two possibilities off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others that we could come up with. Your concern for creating a solution which people actually will use is important. People don't go for mass transit. Most people won't even carpool. It seems like scooters would be a great solution. They're smaller and don't go as fast, so you can pack them much more densely on a roadway, and you can park them much more efficiently too.

It was, still is the media.

[jhines]

It was the first big disaster caught on film.

Likewise, the hazing incident at a local high school wouldn't have been noteworthy, except it was video taped. Club fires in 2003, or Rodney King in LA, or on and on.

People had died in huge numbers before, but now they could see it in theaters for themselves.

Yes and NO...

[SerpentMage]

Ok, You are right and wrong here.

First France is not the biggest exception on producing their energy using oil/coal. Go a bit north from where you are (assuming US) and you have a neighbor that produces electricity in two ways, water or nuclear.

Next why do you assume that hydrogen is produced using electricity that stems from coal?

Germany has some HUGE wind farms and sunny areas can use solar. The advantage of using this approach to hydrogen is that you can ship the hydrogen from the producing areas to the consumption areas.

Will these areas be big enough to supply all the necessary energy? DAMM RIGHT! Canada has so much power from water that it is not even funny. And places like the middle east have so much sun that huge solar powerplants could be created. Sorry but the hydrogen economy is not a dream....

Re:Yes and NO...

[Lours]

You are right and wrong too ;)

It is true that Canada does not depend only on oil/coal to produce their energy, but it's false to say that it comes only from nuclear and water.

As the CIA World factbook (http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geo s/ca.html) says :
Electricity - production by source:
hydro: 61%
fossil fuel: 25%
other: 2% (2000)
nuclear: 12%

One fourth of Canada electricity is produced using fossil fuels, both oil and coal.

France electricty production (same source) :
nuclear: 77%
hydro: 13%
fossil fuel: 10%
other: 1% (2000)

And now Germany (always same source) :
fossil fuel: 63%
nuclear: 30%
hydro: 4%
other: 3% (2000)

Wind energy is currently growing very fast in Germany but not to the point that it can be used to produce enough hydrogen to run vehicles (or only very few).

So as you see, producing enough clean hydrogen so we can use it to power really-emissions-free vehicles is not yet possible and is very far from being so.
Even if wind farms grow up very fast, they will need to produce nearly twice the energy which is now used to propell vehicles since hydrolisis has a very small efficiency (less than 50%).

Most of the world uses oil and coal to produce energy including the huge majority of the rich countries, so the clean hydrogen economy is far from becoming a reality (I wish it will but I doubt it's possible without reductions of the energy consumption).
The dirty oil-based hydrogen economy has much more probability to become a reality however...

Can anyone say "Hindenburg"?

[tundog]

Didn't the Germans learn their lesson the FIRST time???

For the hydrogen-phobic

[Stonent1]

Fill a baloon with Hydrogen and light it. You get a nice, fast, fluffy flame. Fill a baloon with 2 parts Hydrogen and 1 part Oxygen and light it and your neighbors will be calling the police, because they'll think you just set off a stick of dynomite.

Now, not many people worry about the tank of propane that is attached to their grill. There isn't any oxygen inside that tank, so it is perfectly stable.

For those who cite the Hindenburg as a hydrogen failure, do some reading on further scientific investigations. The outer cloth was covered in a explosively flamable chemical which ignited before the hydrogen was an issue.

Re:For the hydrogen-phobic

[Anonymous Coward]

I filled a balloon with 2 parts Hydrogen and one part Oxygen except I filled it too full and it burst and I got wet. Mommy!!

Hindenburg explosion urban legends

[perfessor multigeek]

After the Hindenburg, nobody dared to use it anymore.
Uh, actually, it's been something like twenty years since they figured out that the hindenburg explosion was not caused by hydrogen. The dopants (stuff used to coat the skin) were made of a combination related to thermite which, in fact, caused several helium airships to catch fire and crash.
Hydrogen is flammable, sure enough, but it is nowhere near as dangerous as public perception holds it to be. How we continue to be terrified of hydrogen in a world that uses magnesium for auto parts is beyond me.

Rustin

Hydrogen Power

[goodhell]

It's good to see that people are moving away from oil and gas. I see this from a pollution standpoint. I live in an area where we get inversions all the time in the winter. And it sux!!!

Our problem comes from the fact that we have a huge agricultural industry (read beef) that the waste emits a lot of ammonia. Our traffic engineer needs to get his head out of his ass, because our streets are more like parking lots. So the emissions from the ammonia and the idling engines tend to combine and create terrible pollution for this valley.

A switch to hydrogen is a great step (although water vapor is a big greenhouse gas). But this company is not the only one doing this. Another company is working on a test for bigger vehicles.

Daimler/Chrysler is hooking up with UPS with one of their delivery trucks as a test to see how a fuel cell can handle an established route, next year. I think this will be a big help in getting fuel cells mainstream.

http://www.enn.com/news/2003-05-20/s_4510.asp

Personally, I wouldn't mind getting a vehicle that I can refuel at home at minimal cost to me. (You can set up a very efficient Hydrogen fueling station for fairly cheap (think long run)).

One of the things that will be a stumbling block for fuel cells/electric cars/alt energy vehicles, has been mentioned in several posts already. Right now they do not have the range or power that conventional gas powered vehicles have. But I'm sure that with time they will improve greatly. Hopefully in the next ten years we'll be able to be driving our own 'mini-hindenburgs'.

Look forward!

[Bibo]

Folks, I think this story is not mainly about building yet another scooter. Look at what the hydrogen engineers in the automobile industry have come up with so far. Take Mercedes Benz and BMW, they have built comparively large cars and just a few years ago the smallest vehicle they could equip with a hydrogen engine were transporter size. Now this inventor shows (not just proposes!) he actually shows us what can be done. Sure, there are some problems which remain to be solved, but that scooter is no claim for perfection. You cannot ride that thing at 100mph on a motorway and you might not be able to ride for days without a refill, but that is not what is is about. Look at it, there is no spacey fuel tank which fills the entire trunk of your car and there is no refuelling which takes hours at specialised gas stations. That scooter is about technical possibilities and about making things happen instead of talking about what should be done in a better world.

Hrmmmm quick question for the chemists

[Thrawn5150]

Maybe this has already been answered and I missed it, but if Joe users are so concerned over hydrogen than why not mix it with some other gas reducing the volatility during storage/refilling and have that gas stripped back off before combustion? Keep in mind I know practically nothing of chemistry.

fuck off

[Anonymous Coward]

fat chicks? what fucking planet are you from? grow the fuck up

Re:fuck off

[Anonymous Coward]

My dick is growing...

It is standing tall...

It is unrefutable truth: my penis has grown the fuck up!

Spank me 85 times, cuz today is my birthday again!

I'd buy one of these...

[Strudelkugel]

...but judging from the presentation, it looks like you have to be a hot babe to use it.

Re:Alternative-powered vehicles seem to be cripple

[Sleepy]

> So what about all of those gas powered scooters tht are out there now? Do you see people trying to drive them on the interstate/freeway/highway? No, because it is illegal to have them there. Do people drive gas powered scooters from suburbia to metropolis? No, that isn't what they were designed for. How would thease scooters be any different? Would it suddenly become leagal to drive them on the interstate?

>This is sort of like whining about not being able to row boat to the moon. That isn't what it was intended for.

I don't disagree with what you stated -- but if you re-read my post and the responses, you'll see you took it out of context.

The issue isn't complaining you can't take underpowered vehicles on the freeway... the issue is that there is a dearth of "alternative vehicles" that DO have enough power for the highway.

Notable exceptions of course are the hybrid gas-electric cars that Detroit does not build, but at US$20,000.. are out of reach for most people.

Re:Alternative-powered vehicles seem to be cripple

[Anonymous Coward]

The tank is at 300 Bar? That's 4500 PSI. That's no regular 'air station'. 4500 PSI?!?! I'd rather drive around with a bunch of hydrogen, or maybe a small nuclear device.

It Still Burns Fossil Fuels

[Anonymous Coward]

In order to get the hydrogen, this setup uses electricity to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen. This electricity comes from your local power plant, which is most likely burning fossil fuels. The process is inefficient, because of the intermediate processes.... you'd be better off just burning the fossil fuels in your scooter. Same with electric vehicles. All you're doing is changing who burns the fossil fuels.

Assholes like you are why I drive (I dont want 2)

[Anonymous Coward]

> I have seen plenty of people pedalling their bikes going so slow and holding up traffic for miles. I would like to run the fuckers over and teach the rest of you bastards a lesson. You are a danger to yourself and others when you are not going at the speed of traffic and are not obeying the laws of the road and I have seen more than my share of assholes on bikes just fly right through stop signs, stop lights, yields, etc because they know if they are hit they will win the court case.

I hope you are caught and taught a lesson before someone innocent is hurt. While we do have police on bikes in America, it's very very unfortunate that none are in plainsclothes.

If you are consistently in such a hurry that you have no respect for traffic law, you should evaluate your life, and your decision to live 30 miles from where you work.

Bike traffic has equal right of way as a vehicle... we don't ALL pay taxes to support Detroit. The roads belong to all who can use it.

It's people like you who "pretend" not to see pedestrians in the crosswalk (or if there are no painted lines on the corner, fail to yield).

Assholes like you are precisely why I drive, because you won't share the roads.

Stop thinking of bikes as an annoyance, and admire these people for NOT SUPPORTING OIL-SPONSORED TERRORISM, like you know you do. Bikers have a fuck lot more consideration than your selfish ass.

Have a nice day.

commercial wind plants

[zogger]

wind plants, they have discovered, if made the correct size and importantly, to the correct height, are right now just at the same costs as conventional plants. I did a quick google and found this

http://austin.bizjournals.com/austin/stories/200 3/ 05/19/daily14.html

and I know there's more out there with better breakdowns of cost, efficiency, etc. There's also a lot of work being done on solar thermal > electricty, using heliostats or the solar trough methods, and efficient heat transfer media and conventional boilers/generators/turbines then.

Also, and exciting to me anyway, the recent breakthroughs with various algae that give off hydrogen gas, that can be scaled from as small as single family home sized up to whatever you want.

I don't think there is right now or fort the near future any single "one" type of alternative energy that will totally replace the conventionals, but the variety that is avaialable now, and the different ways to do it, are most encouraging, and really just need more interest, adoption, use and further R & D from those efforts. I'd have to look, but I believe I have read, IIRC, that last year, that more new wind generators (watts to watts) were introduced world wide than any other source of electrical generation. I think it's kinda neat. I have a small wind charger, but haven't installed it yet, waiting until after we move, the owners here where I live and work don't want me to put up a tower, although we all are cruising on solar PV right now. After we move, that baby is going up! I really like the PV, and having the wind addition will immensely help out in the winter, when we get less sun but a lot more wind. That is usually the most common alternative hybrid system you will see alternative energy enthusiasts running in most most places, it works out pretty well, you just really need a detailed site survey to see which of all the alternatives are best for your location. Ideally, I would like microhydropower, perhaps that will be possible.

Modders

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep. Now they've modded it down from their original "5" to a "3". But they still don't understand what you said.

uh...

[haggar]

The pressure sensor will transmit the data to a computer chip, which will then accumulate and send the necessary information, regarding the proper hydrogen mixture, to the injection jet.

Surely that could never go wrong....

costs

[zogger]

not sure around where you are, but around here, 20 grand for a new vehicle, car or pickup, is pretty normal. I know some guys have dropped that on just a bassboat they might use a dozen times a year. It just depends on what is important to people. Anyway, they seem to sell a lot of new cars for serious big bucks, I mean, that's where all the used cars and trucks come from, heh. Just perhaps if they were actually *there* to look at and purchase on the lots, more of them would be sold.

For an example, I know from previous slashdot articles and other places, that the GM EV1 vehicle was really a success, and most of the owners really wanted to keep them, but GM is making them turn them in at lease end and then is smashing them. they issued various reasons, but down to the nitty gritty, the owners LIKED them and used them for the purpose they leased them for, a normal commuter car, and for that purpose they seemed to work quite well.

I think there's something to do the entrenched monopolies just paying lip service to the alternatives, both in transportation and in electricity production. They appear to be "trying", but they always postpone actual large scale releases, perhaps they don't want to lose profits with the older techniques somehow. I can't really say, but it appears that way to me. The hondas and toyota hybrids sure seem to be selling well, though. It's like any other product, if you wait for this "perfect" gadget, you'll never have one. Remember computers 20 years ago? Thank God enough people bought them so that now we can have cheaper better ones. I distinctly remember all sorts of people telling me they (personal PCs) would never work, too expensive, blah blah blah, aw phooie,short sighted pompous luddites. Sure, the original ones were slow, choices limited, programs limited, but once people actually started buying them and using them, WHAM, it got way cool pretty fast, and just shows signs of always getting better. Same with any other commercial products. Nothing right now is perfect, but there's enough out there right now you CAN get all sorts of alternative transportation and you CAN produce your own electrical power. I run on solar, and I know if I had the cash I can drive around 80 miles away and purchase a hybrid honda or toyota. Once it hits the point that every dealer has some,sitting right on the lots, in different body styles, and with truck or suv options, that you'll see them just take off. People like new stuff, and when they go to buy something new, they just might pick one of the new technologies. If they are a hassle to find, nope, people won't even know they are there, and fall prey to a lot of FUD that they don't exist or aren't practical yet. Well, compared to what will most likely be available 20 years from now, no, nothing sold right now, conventional or alternative, is "practical" but really, we have to get the show on the road sometime, and *now* is a good time. And hey, our economy could stand a good kick in the pants and jumpstart entire new industries, as in "a million more cool jobs would be nice now". The early adopters, just like the earlier computer adopters,or television adopters (my folks had the very first TV in our whole area, BTW,it was way cool, I remember it, neat stuff at the time) get the benefits of use.

Re:costs

[Sleepy]

Nice post; thanks.

Yes, $20k is an amazing amount for a car in my position... it's money needed for a house downpayment (or if I had one, extra payments). A decent "new" commuter car is US$15k (with new Kia's sub-$10k)... a Kia + Harley makes more sense to me. :-)

Thanks to the wise folks at Honda and Toyota, I'll eventually see their hybrids at car auctions. I like the Toyota Prius hybrid's drivetrain, but the Honda Insight is a 2-seater (yum!).

Re:costs

[zogger]

oh ya, 20 k is impossible for me too, I always got to wait untill I get stuff like vehicles used. maybe 5 to 10 years from now there might be enough hybrids or fuel cell whatevers out there so anyone can grab one. for the time being, well, just got to shop smart. I missed an opportunity to get a rabbit pickup diesel used (and cheap) in good running shape. I saw one, had the cash,decided not then, went home. Couple days later to myself I go --> "you fool! Suppose fuel gets to 3 or 5 clams a gallon or something?? that's a cool ride then, plus it's a tiny truck you can haul stuff in! what's not to like???" so I drove back to the place, a carlot, the owner had a change of heart, too, and decided to make it his parts runner.45 to 60 MPG is nothing to sneeze at. He had already had it painted with his lot logos, etc. Rats! anyway... For 20k I could get a car, truck, bike, a boat, an RV,a mountain bike, inline skates, and still have cash for a downpayment on some really cheap property. Joe cheapskate frugal poor guy here. Used is *where it's AT* for us'ns around here....

And wherever you are, THANKS rich guys for buying those new peecees so I can get one cheap now, used.

Now, hurry up and get rid of them 21 inch monitors, mkay??

%^)

greater fossil fuel scarcity over time

[maynard]

Hydrogen as a fuel is often pushed by tree-huggers with arts degrees as being a panacea, a clean source of energy. It's not. Like a rechargeable battery, it's merely a tool to store energy.

The energy to split the hydrogen out of compounds must be coming from somewhere. How do you do it? Primarily with existing electric generation techniques - coal, nuclear, hydroelectric dams... there's no free lunch, and solar, wind, wave power have yet to demonstrate economic or even environmental viability despite Greenpeace and David Suzuki jumping up and down telling us to use them.

Two points:

1. While it's factually accurate that hydrogen is primarily an energy storage medium and not a generation technology, your use of derogatory terms such as "tree-huggers" and "people with arts degrees" simply diminishes your argument.
2. Fossil fuels are a finite resource. As they grow scarce fossil fuels energy rates will rise beyond the price of wind/solar/hydroelectric/geothermal/tidal/nuclear. At this point it will be cheaper to extract the hydrogen via electrolysis or steam powered by electricity rather than converting directly from fossil fuels.

Whether hydrogen is the best available energy transport medium for vehicles and home heat remains to be seen. It appears that the Bush administration has set a policy goal of developing the vehicle technology and creating the necessary fueling infrastructure to support hydrogen at the pump. This is the important decision since it will affect transportation policy for the next hundred years or more. How we convert available energy to hydrogen is a moot point until the rest of the infrastructure has been developed. Though I would argue that traditional green technology will likely be cheaper long term than traditional light water nuclear, and we're quickly nearing the inflection point whereby fossil fuels will be uneconomical for hydrogen conversion due to scarcity.

A good argument could be made for biodiesel as an alternative to hydrogen. But that Bush made a decision, any decision, toward a new fueling infrastructure long term is a good thing.

JMO,
-Maynard

Two stroke need oil?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm. I was wondering why a 2-cycle couldn't use crankcase lubrication like a 4-cycle. I looked it up, and I see now.

A standard 2-cycle uses the motion of the piston in the cylinder to compress the fuel/air mixture so it will be pushed into the cylinder, so there has to be an opening between the crankcase and the air/fuel area.

So a "conventional" 2-cycle does need oil in the air/fuel mixture, whether added to the fuel or injected. The oil in the air then ends up on the surfaces inside the engine, to provide its lubrication. A 2-cycle can also operate in any orientation. A special design would be needed to keep oil in a crankcase, and a filter would be needed to allow air pressure to leak out without the splashed oil leaking into the air. The orientation of the engine should not be a problem when it's intended for a particular type of application. So maybe there can be a 2-cycle which does not need oil in its air/fuel.

Re:Two stroke need oil?

[dvoosten]

It is in principle possible to figure out a way to make a 2 stroke engine that does have lubricant in the mixture. You could make a seperate chamber with an overpressure that takes that function of the crankcase. However, this will dramatically decrease the power to weight ratio and height of this ratio is really the only reason 2 strokes are built.

Cargolifter?

[Pseudonymus Bosch]

Talking about German hydrogen vehicles, is there any future for Cargolifter or modern airships in general?

In this case - probably not

[MZdoctor]

It is true that NOx production is a problem common to all IC engines. It is however also an established fact that the retention of exhaust gases inherent in all two-strokes appreciably lowers peak cycle temperatures. Therefore two-strokes with modest power output and hence modest bmep (brake mean effective pressure) emit negligible amounts of NOx and the Aqwon is probably no exception.

Clueful journalism?

[Oestergaard]

When I take over, it will be a requirement that reporters have a friggin' clue.

In case of an accident, the tank will freeze and no fire or explosion would occur.

Oh, is that so? Well, how about an accident which starts out with a fire? Here's news for you: hydrogen doesn't freeze if there is fire and oxygen present. It burns or explodes pretty darn well actually.

I am sure that accidents are possible, where the tank would indeed freeze first. The may even be "likely", if the whole thing is cleverly designed. But accidents with liquid hydrogen are not inherently "safe" by any stretch of imagination.

the power is 2.6 kWh

No no no! God fscking damnit! Watts is "power" or "effect", Watt-hours is "energy" or "work".

The "power" is, as stated in the original article 2.6 kW (which has nothing at all to do with the 2.6kWh as misquoted in the slashdot post) - which corresponds roughly to 3.5 HP (one HP is 736 W).

For a "news for nerds" forum, I am absolutely amazed over the extent of ignorance (from posters and editors) when it comes to correctness in simple matters as above, and the general responsible critical journalistic view. Misprints happen, yes, but claiming that liquid-hydrogen accidents are just "safe" is not a friggin misprint, that's cluelessnes.

What has the world come to? Has slashdot turned into Slashdot? ... oh, wait....

Hydrogen Is a Stupid Solution, Check Out BingoFuel

[irishkev]

Escape from the Petro Prison

For at least the past 100 years, the world has been trapped in a prison built out of oil. Indeed, the primacy of oil in the domestic and foreign affairs of industrialized states is without question. But if one thinks the petroleum paradigm endures because there are no viable alternatives, one would be wrong. The barriers to the wide adoption of alternative sources of energy are political and economic in nature, not scientific or technical. This essay describes a clean, electrically generated synthetic fuel that could allow for a grass roots transformation of the global political and economic system; a system ruled by a corporate oligopoly who's interests are inimical to those of people everywhere.

Oil: Control the World, Get Rich Doing It

Why oil? Why, after all these years, does the world still rely on oil and gasoline to power its industrial economies? There are two main reasons:

1) Oil, rather, access to oil, can be controlled by a handful of corporations with profound connections to the governments of the world. Therefore, oil can be used as a weapon to destroy economies, or allow them to flourish. Oil is a strategic commodity. No industrial state can function without large quantities of it.

2) The corporations that comprise the oil oligopoly make billions of dollars per year from the trade in hydrocarbons and related services.

Another reason for the importance of oil, from the U.S. perspective, is the interlocking scam between the oil companies, the Federal Reserve and U.S. Dollar-As-Reserve-Currency.[1] The dollar is the de-facto medium of exchange for global oil transactions. When Japan buys oil from Saudi Arabia, for example, Japan pays with dollars. This means that even when states other than the U.S. conduct oil related business, the U.S. dollar gets a boost due to the demand for dollars required to complete the transactions.

In 2000, Iraq decided to switch from dollars to euros as the medium of exchange for its oil sales. The U.S. recently invaded Iraq and thereby seized control of the second largest source of oil on the planet. The reason given to the public by the Bush administration for the invasion of Iraq was that Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction, and that the situation posed a clear and present danger to the U.S. And despite the faint echoes of Donald Rumsfeld's assurances that the invasion of Iraq, Has nothing to do with oil, literally nothing to do with oil, Iraq now stands to become the world's largest producer of oil.[2] It's probably safe to assume that Iraq will conduct its future oil business in dollars. In fact, you can bet your life on it.

De-Capitalizing Evil and Other Just Causes

Why use alternative fuels? The reasons will vary from one individual to another, but here are a few to consider:

• Petroleum is a non-renewable resource. Petroleum extraction has peaked; this means that it will become increasingly difficult (expensive) to extract what remains buried in the earth.
• Burning hydrocarbons pollutes the air we all breathe.
• Buying gasoline directly supports violent criminal enterprises and people like Dick Cheney.
• Countries fight wars for oil. If there was less reliance on---and demand for---oil, engaging in wars for oil would become unnecessary.
• Some alternative fuels may be produced very inexpensively, allowing individuals and governments to use funds for other purposes. Note: ExxonMobile recently reported record earnings.[3]

Hydrogen: Part of the Problem, Not the Solution

Every couple of years, the media makes a great deal of noise about hydrogen; the wonder fuel of the future, etc. As a fuel, however, hydrogen has a key flaw. The short explanation is that hydrogen is extremely difficult to work with. Hydrogen transportation and storage requires very expensive and specialized equipment. Converting the public refu

Re:Assholes like you are why I drive (I dont want

[Anonymous Coward]

there is no problem with people on bikes.....if they can keep up with the speed of traffic.....WHICH IS THE LAW YOU DUMB BASTARD.....go look it up

also the reason their are not cops on the streets in places where this would be a problem is because the cops are not GOING TO BREAK THE LAW BY GOING SLOWER THAN THE SPEED OF TRAFFIC AND AT THE SAME TIME SLOWER THAN THE POSTED SPEED LIMIT

i live about 3 minutes away from where i work, im a college student, i dont even drive to work....

also being on a college campus, i dont "pretend" not to see peds, i always stop for peds.....because the peds are like me, i will just walk out in the middle of the road and not think twice about it.....stopping for peds is the rule

and no, i dont want to share the road, i would love it if there was nobody but me on it, so i can drive and not have to worry about some tard in an suv coming across the yellow lines in a turn, or grandma cruising along slower than christmas

bikers dont bike because of terrorism, they bike because 1) it is more feasible for them to use a bike, 2) they are hippies or like to think they are helping mother earth......#1 is cool, #2 go listen to george carlin, the world is fine, we are fucked, no matter how we act....car or bike

and it has been a nice day, thank you

Oh and one more thing about dating "fat chicks"

[Anonymous Coward]

I forgot to put this in, but it changes everyone's perspective.

Don't date someone that believes in "butt fucking on the first date"

Be steadfast and always remember, the bigger the cussion the better the pushin'.

Cheers :)

is in my ass

[Anonymous Coward]

I apologise for my subject title, let me explain in detail.

I had this dream about 5 years ago...yes I will never forget it. I dreamed that a school bus pulls upto my neighbors house and all the children are crying. I run out in my pajamas and ask what is all the fuss about. A doctor examines me as does a taylor and invites me in to enjoy a nice bowl of beans he had cooking on a stove in the bus. All the children were sitting in their seats crying. At second glance, I noticed all children had their pants down and tubes up their ass...I was dreaming about the first school bus powered by human-produced methane gas.

God, have mercy on my soul...

40Mph median

[Anonymous Coward]

If it redlined at 40Mph, then it is useless. If it can get best fuel consumption economy while at 40Mph, or 3600 Rpm, or whatever it approaches first, then it is a contender.

Then I remembered groceries...doh, back at 25Mph.

FUCK YOU MAN! GET BACK ON THE SIDEWALK ASSHOLE!

*Be patient fucknut, or I'll bleed all over yuh!

That would rock!

[Anonymous Coward]

Just as I'm about to run out of fuel, I gain negative buoyancy...

Oh flying scooters, never mind that. I have a magical umbillical cord I throw around my neck and all the British nannies run away from me like a plagued woman-eating pelvis. 'my bad.

You know what they say about "fat chicks" ...

[Anonymous Coward]

The BIGGER the cussion, the BETTER the pushin'

Hydrogen

[Kadin2048]

Two points: first, I have to question this statement:

"helium which can the be reused or even burnt"

Exactly how do you propose to burn helium? Helium is a noble gas--it does not oxidize, therefore it cannot burn. You can fuse it into (I believe) Lithium, but I have no idea what the temperature required to do it is. I believe that it only occurs in the cores of white dwarf stars, and is hardly the sort of thing one casually writes off as "burning."

Secondly, one point I think needs to be raised whenever the concept of hydrogen fusion as an energy source comes up is (and I do not take credit for this, although I cannot cite the source, I did read it somewhere) if we as a species found a cheap and viable source of energy, there could be long-term enviromental consecquences, even if the production was emissionless in the traditional sense.

What I mean is, although the "global warming" which concerns many people now is due to greenhouse gasses from the combustion of fossil fuels, a cheap and limitless source of electrical energy could begin a new type of global warming; one caused simply by the amount of energy we are adding to our planet as a basically closed system.

For comparison, the energy density of the sun's rays is 1.4 kW/m^2. Multiplying that by half of the surface area of the earth, 2.55E14 m^2 gives us approximately 3.57E14 kW. That's 357000 Terawatts coming in from the sun. Compared to that, all the energy we extract from fossil fuels is insignificant. But if fusion were available as a practically limitless source of power, it's not hard to imagine producing a sizable percentage of that amount within a short (geologically speaking) amount of time.

Whenever you "produce" (release from storage, either in hydrocarbon chains, or in inter-atomic forces) energy and transform it into electricity, it will eventually end up as heat. Even if you go fusion-electricity-hydrogen gas-mechanical energy ... the eventual result is heat.

Just something to think about...

Re:Alternative-powered vehicles seem to be cripple

[thirdrock]

It's street legal...and a joy to drive :oD
It must be a lot easier for a vehicle to be street legal in the US than in Australia.

The car companies here have got the govt here by the goolies, and it extremely difficult to get anything that doesn't come the major car manufactures made street legal.

Cool project BTW. Thanks for the link.

Asian solution

[Anonymous Coward]

This sort of thing would be the shiznit for Tuk-Tuks and the like in Asian countries. Those little 2-stroke shitters pump out more polution than you can imagine, so replacing them with something cleaner would be a huge boost for the environment.

Re:Alternative-powered vehicles seem to be cripple

[Alphtoo]

ANY two-wheeled vehicle stands a pretty good chance of getting you killed. This is true for a number of reasons, one being that drivers aren't looking for you. An underpowered bike on the road is like taking a penknife to a gunfight; it places you in an extremely vulnerable situation. It's a good idea, if you're going to ride a two-wheeler in trafic, to ride one that can at least keep up with everything else on the road. I prefer riding one that can zip around the fools out there in cars, trucks, etc. About half the people on the roads around here are drunk, and the other half are crazy, or just plain stupid.

The American's flew TWO German-design Rigids ....

[vortexau]

with Helium! The ZR 1, named the Shenandoah, was built in the US in 1922 and was modelled after a WW1 German height-climber. With 93% of the lift of Hydrogen, this Helium supported airship was ripped in two in a thunder storm in 1925. Only fourteen lives of a crew of 43 were lost in the disaster.

The LZ 126 was delivered from Germany by Hugo Eckener in October 1924, and became the Los Angelos. This craft, with its hull's silver sheen of aluminum powder dope, was operated until retirment in 1932 with an unbroken safety record.
.

Can anyone say "ignor American advice"?

[vortexau]

> Didn't the Germans learn their lesson the FIRST time???

What lesson? Not to let the Americans tell them how to land an Airship in a thunderstorm?

Good lesson! Come in high (with an electrical potential equal to the thunder cloads) and drop ropes which get wet in the rain. Earth those WET ropes with the ground and complete an Ultra high-voltage circuit.

In Germany they approached landings from a LOW altitude in safety! But what do the (friendly-firing) Americans know about safety?

What indeed!
.

hydrogen fund

[Anonymous Coward]

some european guys try to go one step further promoting hydrogen : a "hydrogen fund" with EC's support ?

More details on http://www.thehydrogenfund.org/

OT

[mekkab]

DEWD- where have you been? (I guess the most obvious answer is "VT, dummy!", but you know what I mean)

even more OT

[perfessor multigeek]

Life has not been dull. Rewarding though still cashless, but not dull. Starting a company without capital SUXXs.