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Executing a Mass Departmental Exodus in the Workplace?
rerunn asks: "The recent story about the consultants from JBOSS walking out couldn't have had better timing. I'll save the drama and cut to the scenario: You and a few close co-workers make up the core grunts of 'the department'. The company relies heavily on your department for many services, some of which, other departments cannot provide. You like your job, it provides great satisfaction. Suddenly, the company realizes its in deep financial shit, and starts making cut backs. This impacts the department. You suddenly find yourself working 50-60 hour weeks, put on call with no compensation, given unreasonable amounts of work and generally treated like dirt. You get the feeling that the company is just going to take advantage of you no matter how and what happens. You get together with the rest of the department for a 'fsck this company' meeting and decide to walk out. Have you ever done this?? (We are so close!) What was the outcome?"
On a comedy special years ago, Bill Cosby quoted parents telling kids, "I brought you into this world, I can take you out, and I can make another one that looks just like you."
With today's job market I'm afraid the company will just replace you with people that are hungry for work.
I could be wrong, but I've always lived by the mantra "better safe, than sorry."
Mike
Sounds great.
Why face the job market alone when you can face it with all your co-workers?
---- I've fallen, and I can't get up.
...if you don't have a place to go, suck it up, find another job, THEN quit. You're crazy to walk out on your only opportunity these days.
If the company really is in 'deep financial shit' then your action could be the final straw. And if you're as important as you say you are then your action will have a severe impact on the company at this difficult time. I guess you need to ask yourself what you feel is more important: the well-being of the company (and your source of employment) or your personal pride? Perhaps you ought to think about how lucky you are to even HAVE a job right now.
You'd better have something lined up to move into, because you will have certainly burned bridges at your current employer. Plus, how will you spin this situation to prospective employers during the interview process?
Q: So, why did you leave your last position?
A: Things got rough, they treated us like dirt, I left.
This will raise doubts in the mind of the interviewer as to whether you're a person who can help an organization weather tough times...
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Is to collectively refuse to do any work, until you get fired or laid off.
You can't collect unemployment when you quit, you know.
Would you rather be out on your own looking for another job than continuing to turn up every day and take what is being dished out? Consider that despite the angry words of your colleagues, they may not step up when the crucial moment comes, and you alone may be the one leaving. Is that still okay?
Do you have savings to take 6 months with no income, or maybe shares you can sell to cover that period... because if you leave, it will be like leaving a relationship, you will be depressed, think and talk of nothing else for months, boring your friends and family until you get over it.
Is there any upward future for you in the company, ie, is continuing to work there acting as an investment for you that may pay off at a later time? If there is some hope of a career path, given how you are treated by people at that level, is that somewhere you want to be? Given the trajectory of the company, is there going to be a later time for this to pay off in?
Can you get out without dropping innocent colleagues in the shit?
That kind of thing is cool to talk about, but it is like starting a union. If someone in the department doesn't walk out, then you're out of work and you've handed them a promotion. So stick together. Everyone should hand in their resignation at the same time. Better impact that way, anyhow.
Information wants to be $1.98/lb.
Are you planning on walking out with your coworkers and forming a company of your own? Because, if you're not, there's no point in doing it in unison. Sure, you might wake someone at the company up, but more than likely they won't care, and even if they did, it's too late for you. Meanwhile, you're left holding the bag, as it were, with no job.
If the situation is that bad, you should do the normal route: look for a job while keeping yours. If/when you find another job, you quit. Your coworkers can all do the same. Things'll work out much better if you only bail when you have a parachute, and, no matter how bad your job is, it's better than no job at all.
oh i don't know, say a million different outcomes for a million different people. most likely long bouts of unemployment. Just because you can program (or think you can) does not mean you can run a company. next stop: dose of reality.
Back during the big ol' bubble of the late nineties, I worked with a development team that came up with everything that end-users interacted with. Back then, we were doing just as you described- endless hours, little or no compensation... but we all still believed in the dream that was "we'll be millionaires soon enough". Thinking back, we were all in a perfect position to leave and start something on our own.
NDAs and other such things in your contract might not let you break off "en masse". That is something to be careful of. Make sure you don't have contractual limitations or obligations that could prevent you from making a clean break. Using your collective knowledge and contacts, I think you all have a pretty good shot at making it on your own.
And there is no looking back. The pay sucks, but the freedom is priceless (atleast until all my credit cards are max'd out). I wouldn't go back if my life depended on it.
Look - if you are going to jump ship -GREAT! Only be a little smart and find another job before you jump.
I know it would give you great satisfaction to flip off the boss and walk as a group. Yet, the economic reality today says that is a really dumb idea. If you don't like your current position, at least have another place to land before you toss it.
Further, it is HIGHLY suggested that even though you don't like the place, that you don't burn bridges. What are the chances you are going to work with some of the managers/people above you in the future (answer from 25 years in the business - 100%) Leave gracefully and your career will do better in the long run.
Have you compiled your kernel today??
I suppose that it depends on whether you're walking out for good, or just as a work stoppage to show them you're important. I'll assume from the title, you're talking the former.
The problem with the latter is that if the company really is in trouble, you'll be putting the nails in its coffin.
In this job market, I would personally not be too excited about the prospect of a job hunt. I've got friends who have been actively looking for over 6 months - it's kinda rough.
Another thing to consider is that some might just decide to let you all walk, and feign some form of loyalty to the company... it's a win-win for them. If the company survives, their "loyalty" will be rewarded, and if it crashes and burns, they will be eligible to collect unemployment while those who quit will not.
(just some random thoughts)
The Digital Sorceress
My father is a 'big wig' in HR. We've seen many a strikes in the past.
Dealing with a union is nice, cause its a one-on-one arguement and you can get things moving that way.
But if everyone leaves in your situation, they need to know why you left, and who to talk to make things right.
Another point, during strikes, about 25% of the time, the people were simply replaced.
You are talking about a poor IT economy. Lots of unemployeed geeks that just want a job, even if its 50-60 hour weeks (as long as you can put food on the table).
The bottom line? Don't even think about doing this unless you are prepared not to come back.
You're better off just doing the work, and talking to management about compensation.
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
Would you like to try to convince a judge and jury that these 'lazy' workers were fired because they refused to work unpaid overtime? Didn't think so.
--Dan
But don't go before getting another job.
Don't bother about people putting moral pressure on you, as I've seen in the postings before. That's quite unreasonable for two reasons.
First, if the company goes bankrupt, you'll need another job anyway, so the sooner you start looking, the better.
Second, it's not your responsability, but management's. You cannot be blamed for bringing the company to the point where it is now, so don't feel guilty about the consequences of your actions. Furthermore, somebody else fired you co-workers, and that should make you responsible? No.
There is another reasons why you might walk: it gives better job security to your current co-workers. The company will need them more than ever and will save a few bucks on your salary.
Good luck to you and the people in your company.
Good point TopShelf.
Combined with other people's comments that "You are replaceable"
You and your team might as well critique each other's resumes and start applying for jobs.
If you are walking out, its because you don't want to come back- not because you want them to treat you with respect. If you want to be treated with respect, ASK that you be treated with respect. If the response is a lot of Management BS (hopeful language but nothing concrete) you know that they aren't going to do anything about it. So send those resumes, line up a better jorb (homestar runner typo!) and then LEAVE.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
A group of us at my company just did this. It has had its problems. I haven't gotten my last paycheck because, just as we all believed, the company couldn't survive without us. The second effect is that I am now emotionally and economically linked to a group of people who, while not the enemy, I am growing sick and tired of seeing every day.
The biggest regret I have is an accomplishment that I would never put on a resume or mention in a job interview: I put a dying company out of its misery by being part of a staged walkout. I mean who would walk to talk about that at your next job? "If the company is in trouble, I the man to kill it dead."
My advice: don't do it. The thing you are suppose to do is get your work done and go home at 5:00pm. If they can't handle this then you will be fired which, believe it or not, will make you feel better than walkout in lockstep.
Find another job. Then leave. Convince your colleagues to do the same.
Solidarity is all well and good, but at the end of the day, the only reason any of you are working for this company is to get a paycheck at the end of the day. You don't actually owe each other anything.
If the company suffers (as it will after a mass wlakout) it doesn't help you. It harms them, with ne benefit to you at all, and the loss of your financial stability. It doesn't matter if they learn their lesson. If they improve, you don;t work there any more.
Admittedly, the other people will suffer even more through having to do your job if you walk out, but that will be short term. They can also find a new job. You can help each other out if you want. They can stiull choose to leave.
yeah, next time change it to sh1t since it's more professional.
shouldn't slashdot be one of the last places to visit if you're easily offended?
let me tell ya something,
it's gonna' take more than one brilliant great idea. it actually takes like ten, of which only one works.
im helping a web hosting co. the brilliant idea wa to be non-profit. guess what happened: no profit.
now they are thinking of just selling the assets
Sigs are dangerous coy things
A thought... you could just "slow down". Work slowly, stop doing things, make sure you only put in 40 hrs / week. In New Jersey at least, if you get fired you can collect unemployment after 2 weeks. Granted, I don't know how long you want to live on unemployment for...I think it's about 2/3 of your salary with a cap at $280 a week. Ugh.
Also, there have been a couple of lawsuits where people have sued for unpaid over time... a class action suite between Walgreens & their pharmacists(sp) comes to mind. Shoveling a ton of work on you because you're "salary", "a professional", or "management" is illegal, and if you work cannot reasonably be done in ~40 hrs/ week you are supposed to be compensated for overtime put in.
::shrug:: IANALOAUO
See what the options you have are - take a good look at something that you've wanted to do, and see if there is an opportunity there. Sometimes, everone needs a change of scenery. Again, ensure that there is *somewhere* to go; you don't want to be the new bitch at McDonalds.
Be self aware, and honest with yourself - did you have a gravy job;, did you spend hours of company time trying to make the perfect paper clip crossbow? Is this job the best that you can hope for right now?
It seems to me that you would be better serving yourself (when it comes down to it, you have to pay *your* bills) to sit down and think:
1) Where am I going to go?
2) Am I just getting fired up (no pun intended), because of my coworkers?
3) How do I feel about the coworkers that I will be affecting?
4) Will this end in a firey gun battle?
Just be sure you are taking care of you, cause once rent, electricity, water, car payments, food, and cable bills start coming in, you will find yourself in a darkened apartment, with a can of spagetti-o's, wondering when you'll get used to taking cold showers.
Of course, if your Goth - then go for it!
Recently Iâ(TM)ve been in a similar situation and my opinion is: Donâ(TM)t bother to orchestrate some big event, just help each other to find other jobs. The negativity you bring on yourself isnâ(TM)t worth âoeTeachingâ management (In my experience, if the company is really in this position, management is too arrogant for communication from the working class to be effective). However many people joined together to find jobs seams to be quite effective and a very positive experience. My position currently stems from an interview a co-worker had, where he put the manager in contact with me. Potential employers find this sort of recommendation attractive I suppose. (And my former employer is currently looking about his building with a dazed look wondering what happened to all of us and how is going to deliver what he over sold in the first place)
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
"If you don't like your job, you don't quit, you just come to work and do it half-ass, thats the American way." -- Homer Simpson
That's how I got out of a situation like this...
At the time, I wasn't in the IT deparment at my work, I was working in our Art Deparment, doing IT for ONLY the Macs and outputting printing film.
Well everyone knew I was way better at computers then the current Systems Admin. So everyone came to me with thier problems, PC or Mac... Since I wasn't getting paid the "IT" salary, I had enough of the abuse and constant interruptions. At the end I had 5 bosses!!!!
So I wrote a letter telling them how I felt, and how I have no intension of leaving or anything like that, but I wanted to be moved into the It department full time, where I'm must needed. And I didn't discuss any money at this point....
And you know what, they fired the current Sys Admin, and moved me into the IT deparment full time. And making tones of money......
It just goes to show you, that you NEED to be tackful, and be very careful and how you handle this.
I just expressed how I really felt. I told them the truth. If the company and position is worth it, they will understand...
It's left blank because I have nothing to say to you punks!
You also have to take into consideration that if this plan did work and they decide that they couldn't live without you now, that doesn't mean 6 months down the road they replace you with new people.
If this plan did work it would also make you all look like trouble-makers. They would please you now, to keep the business going, but then slowly hire new people (at a cheaper rate) to learn everything you do and simply replace you.
So perhaps you should rethink your plan. Remember, no one is untouchable. No one is unreplaceable. You may think this, but it's simply not true.
"Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it." - John Lennon.
"So why did you leave your last company?"
"They were treating me badly so I just walked out."
"How were they treating you?"
"They wanted more work hours and more time on call, because the company was going through some tough times."
"That was unacceptable to you? You weren't able to negotiate a better position?"
"Huh? We didn't do any negotiation, we just got together and all walked out."
"It must have been challenging to manage the changeover to a new team."
"Nah, we just all walked out together! Maximum disruption!"
"I see. Well, thank you for your time."
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
Trust is a two way street. How can a person trust a company that doubles the demands required for a regular paycheck just because management's plan isn't as profitable as once thought.
You should not work more without some sort of compensation. Any change in your regular work requirements should come with negotiation. Management's line will be something like, "we all just need to dig in", but management usually has a bit more equity in the company. Negotiate for some of that equity. Negotiate a company policy for preferential promotions for those that did dig in. More vacation, flexible work hours, etc...
Or just walk out all at once. They've made unilateral changes to the implied rules. Its your life and you owe loyalty to yourself first.
Think that just because you're salaried means you should work 60 hours per week when called on? Try leaving work after 20 hours one week when you get everything done early and see just how flexible they are. Forty hours is implied most places.
There are all sorts of exceptions to what I said above. As a programmer I expect a few wild hour nights/weekends when we are integrating or deploying to production. When I sign on to be a programmer, I can expect a few of those at milestones. I also expect that my output will be based on 40 hour weeks and not 60 hour weeks.
t
This may be an arcane reference, but I think this idea was tried already a long time ago. As the story goes, workers once banded together to force employers to improve working conditions, pay, etc. As the story goes, these groups called themselves "unions".
Of course, in the tech industry, where we are all "professionals" and get "salaries" and have "careers", we are above such plebeian things as unions, a day's wage for a day's work, any sort of job security, or any action that would bring into question our undying and unflinching support of whatever corporate entity we are employed by.
Stand up! Companies treat employees as badly as the employees put up with. One bit of advise: don't just walk out without warning. Get together as a group and talk with management. Be up front about the problems and what would fix them. Don't threaten to walk out, just use your collective voice to give them a chance to fix things. Then if things don't improve, walk. I say this because I once worked for a small company with a CEO that was a real piece of work. All 15 or so employees got together and met with the board, not threatening to walk, but deadly serious. A month or so later, he was gone. If one or two managers are the real problem, organize and go above them. Don't be petty or complain about "style" or "personality". Instead, provide a clear list of issues and how they hurt productivity and morale, and what can be done to fix them. If it works, you won't have to walk. If it doesn't, walk quickly. You will have given them the chance to save themselves a heap of expense and trouble.
Please excuse the ranting, but as someone with a family and a life, I have been disgusted by all the corporate boot-licking and cowardice I have seen. Big salaries and perks during the boom distracted people from seeing that they we being used. If you work 80 hour weeks, you are doing the work of two for the price of one. Who is the sucker?
"Life is life." --Laibach
Reminds me of the story (urban legend?) that goes around about the engineers who take key systems down for "routine maintenance" just before walking out - to make sure the managers can't run the shop. Of course, this won't exactly help you get a new job.
Actually, this raises a serious point, which is that a departmental walkout may give you visceral satisfaction, but most technical industries have a 'grapevine' of some sort. You could find yourself interviewing for a new job and having the interviewer say: "Oh, you're one of THOSE guys..."
Unless you have another job lined up, or know that there are lots of better places with openings, it's probably a good idea to stick with the devil you do know.
My $.02
I know you shortened the story you printed above, but does the managment know how everyone in the dept feels? (It's obvious that nobody wants increased hours without more pay, but do they realize how upset everyone really is over this?)
If you did really enjoy your job beforehand, I would create a list (along with the rest of the dept) of the main issues that need to be resolved to make the situation better. Once you do that, explain in a rational manner why these changes need to be made (ie: I understand that money is tight around here, but our dept will not work the extra hours for free. We are vital to the success of this company, etc). Do *not* make any threats (ie: we will all quit). Give the management a chance to change things for the positive!
If that still doesn't work, then it likely would be best to quit. Alot of people will recommend that you stay until you find a new job, but life is too short to be in a position you hate, while working your life away! If you can afford it, get out!
Doh!
Neither of these is a good answer at this time!!
Maybe the description of the situation left some things out... but this really seems like a big case of an "us against them" failure of communication. Notice this bit: "You get the feeling that the company is just going to take advantage of you no matter how and what happens." Feelings, huh? You don't know what's going on or why, but you have these feelings?
There is no "company", a single malevolent entity that is treating you like dirt. There are a lot of individuals involved in the decisions to ask more hours of you, put you on call w/o extra compensation, etc.. Right now, one of your managers is probably talking to his superior, saying "well, I guess we could ask W and X to handle those few extra on-call hours... it sure sucks, but they seem to be okay with the increases so far, and someone has to do it. That should keep customers Y and Z with us, so we'll be okay on payroll through this quarter, at least."
Do you get it? You have to ASSUME that everyone is on your side from the very beginning, and start talking to your manager, their manager, etc.. Let them know that you and the other grunts are starting to give under the strain. Find out what the problems of the company are, and talk about how the company is dealing with them.
Important: approach everything with a friendly, "we're all doing what we can" attitude. As soon as you get hostile, whoever you're talking to will get an uncontrollable urge to dig in their heels. Instead, decide where your breaking point would be, and discuss it reasonably ("if this happens, I'd really have to leave, and neither of us wants that to happen"). You are NOT making threats. Make this clear. Explain that you will keep your manager informed as the situation evolves, and that you will not leave without warning.
If you start getting frustrated with anything other than the economy, calm down and pick up the conversation later.
Bottom line: decide what kind of sacrifices this company is worth to you, and get in on the big picture.
Good luck.
--
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler". - Albert Einstein
There are only 10 types of people: those who understand decimal, those who don't, and, uh, 8 other types I forget.
May I refrase the question:
Will you prefer a daft slug that stays until the final solution has descended on the office?
Alternatively, will you take someone who can actually foresee the reality and where will the business develop to and has gone and tried to fend for himself before the shit has hit the fan (due to some idiot PHB with a mi(bi)llion sized compensation package)? Or an idiot with no business sense and a firm belief that "Build it and they will come"?
I frankly prefer to work people with guts, brains and at least some elementary survival skills. If you like to work the gutless and brainless ones I am not really amused that you have to speak about things like loyalty to retain employees. That is instead of speaking of business perspectives (if any).
Overall, loyalty is a concept to be mentioned around countries and ideologies. Die for your country for loyalty reasons - yes. Stay on a sinking ship (company) for loaylty sake - the f*** no.
Loyalty and business do not mix. A decent business should cause a sufficient level of interest in the employee for him/her to be loyal without having to call on that loyalty. That is especially and mainly from the "what happens next perspective". Under "what happens next" I do not mean tomorrow. I mean years down the road. Yeah, times can get tough. But there is no reason to despise an employee that has jumped ship in a tough time if you could not make him/her believe that the times will get better and when they will get better.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
What's the first few questions you'll be asked at your next job interview?
Why are you looking for a job?
Why did you leave your previous job?
Would your former employer rehire you?
Make sure the way you exit provides the best possible answers to these questions. You'll regret it if not.
When I was in a similar situation, I got the next job first and then I wrote two resignation letters: the one wanted to send, which is still fun to read, and the cordial one I did send. The object is not so much to avoid burning bridges but to let them stew in the regret of not to being able to hold on to such a desirable employee. Flip the bird on the way out and it'll only give you more trouble later.
In general, if the consensus is that they all leave together, their leaving would be non-actionable and thrown out of course. NDA's are like the babblings of mental patients -- just because they say it and believe it doesn't make it true. They can have you sign NDA's all day long, but the courts and laws prevail for your rights. For instance, North Carolina is a right-to-work state. If I were to be fired and I went to work for a competitor, the ONLY actionable item my former employer would have is if I gave away their trade secrets to my new employer --- and they would have to prove it. Outside of that, the NDA can't prohibit me from gaining work in my career field with my skill sets.
Reason being : North Carolina doesn't want to send me an unemployment check if their is a company willing to hire me.
SL33ZE - Artificial Intelligence is No Match For Natural Stupidity -
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"You're lucky to have a job at all, be grateful"
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"Walk out & you'll be poor and destitute"
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"You need them more than they need you"
etcetera. What crap. We are not some defenceless suckling infants dependent on the generous charity of our employers, we are in a relationship of equals where we exchange labour for money. When did we forget that?If pay & working conditions become unacceptable, we quit them. If our behaviour or our productivity is unacceptable, they quit us. It's not like we've taken wedding vows for chrissake.
If you are drawing more salary than you are worth, go ahead - keep your head down & milk it before your employer realises this. But if you give value for money then you do not need to act like the subservient partner. Jobs are tricky to find at the moment, but good employees are not easy to come by either.
Of course it's prudent to have somewhere else lined up before you quit. Just as it's wise for a company to find someone to cover for the guy they're about to fire. I just object to people acting like their employment contract is their most valued possession, rather than their skills, initiative & integrity. Have some confidence in yourselves!
A few months of pure missery and 8 months of unemployment. If the company is fucked and you and your friends can make a go of it withouth them, do it. There's no point in taking grief from a bunch of do nothings. Reasonable companies are run by the professionals who make them work: law partnerships, hospitals, engineering consultancies, you name it. Your masters have tried to tell you where you stand in the world. Good luck.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I think the key to the JBOSS consultants walking out is brand recognition. They all worked on a product that is pretty well known in its solution space. Each of them was a key player in making JBoss the product it is today. Therefore, they could start a company based on the work that they had been doing, and have a reasonable chance for success. This is an unusual situation, because JBoss is open source. Most products produced by companies aren't, and so the developers on that project aren't as likely to be as well known (if they are known at all). This makes trying to form your own company that much harder because you can't really tell potential clients what you have to offer.
IANAL... But I play one on
If you do organize a mass walkout, which screws the rest of the company like you think it will, prepare for the likelihood that anyone who knows or hears anything about the incident - including your managers, people who know your managers, your co-workers, your friends, and even your collegaues who walk out with you - will remember that you were all sh*t disturbers who acted and colluded in a particular way to screw your company when things got tough. The world is smaller than you think.
It would take me about 1 second to decide toss a resume of a guy in your situation who did what you plan to. Nobody needs agitators, least of all a company in somewhat dire straits.
If things are so bad, quit, by yourself. If things are bad for others, they'll probably quit too. But getting others involved in an organized fashion for the explicit purpose of making it tough for the company is unprofessional and will rightly brand you as a trouble maker.
No, the company is lucky to have them and should behave. If the company is really on the way out and these folks can do without them, they should as soon do it as soon as possible. Why sit around and eat shit until the company fails, FOR NO FAULT OF THEIRS? Someone at that company is screwing up or does not belong there. It's not the programmers. A partnership will be tough, but they will be there eventually and might as well start rectruiting useful people before they all make other plans.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
IIRC unemployment is not paid by the general tax payers. Its paid by your former employer.
On paper, that is true. However, that money, along with the health insurance, benefits and other things that your employer supposedly pays for as well really just come out of money that was going to be paid to you anyway. The average employer pays about $1.35 to $1.50 per $1.00 that the employee receives. Amove that overage is cash that is put into the unemployment compensation fund. The fund would have no money if no one worked, so indirectly, you pay for it, as always.
In case of fire, do not use elevator. Use water!
I spent over a year with the company I worked for being behind on paychecks (at one point 3 months behind, and until I left I was always down a month) and working uncompensated overtime due to the management constantly making promises to the customer that we then had to scramble to keep. I got laid off for deciding to use my vacation time over the Xmas/New year holiday. So much for loyalty.
I wouldn't however walk out on someone without a backup plan (another job lined up) even if they deserved it. Particularly in this economy.
A: Things got rough, they treated us like dirt, I left.
BZZZZZT, wrong answer.
A: We did not like the way our management was handeling our product so we formed a partnership. You may be familiar with OUR_NAME and OUR_PRODUCTS and OUR_CLIENTS.
Of course, the question only has to be answered if the partnership fails. As such partnerships are the way of free software and free software is the future, I would not project a failure. If you end up with an interviewer that wants to work you to death and dispose of you, you might be better off somewhere else.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
That doesn't mean you must work overtime in terrible conditions for poor pay. But it does mean, if you decide to take your employment elsewhere, that you leave the company like a professional.
Treat your reputation like a valuable possession -- because it is.
Sorry, but walking out is a "screw-your-employer" gesture. It's about as unprofessional as you can get and, even worse, makes you look vindictive. Is that really the impression you want to leave? Do you really want to trade a good piece of your reputation for a few fleeting moments of take-this-job-and-shove-it jubilation?Be professional. Give two weeks notice.
Like most people, you are probably under an "at will" employment agreement that gives you the right to walk out whenever you please. Don't do it. Give the two weeks, which is universally considered reasonable and comes at no cost to your good reputation.
If you do resign, tender your resignation in writing. Make it simple, polite, and direct -- professional. Something like, "I am writing to inform you of my resignation, effective on date ." That's all you need. Do not
include a grand, barbed explanation of why you're leaving,
which is especially tempting when you feel that your employer has wronged you.
When your employer receives a stack of resignation letters on the same day, they'll get the point. No need for you to draw circles around it or point to it with big red arrows.
Remember: When you leave, do so in a way that makes it clear to your employer that they are losing somebody valuable. Be professional.
Easy, automatic testing for Perl.
Suddenly, the company realizes its in deep financial shit? Sometimes asking for more is like trying to extract back taxes from the homeless. If someone is living fat at your expense then do something about it. If everyone is in the same boat then what will this prove? Whining while others are in the same pain will get you no sympathy and may cause people to seriously dislike you. When Indian programmers are loosing work to Russians I think your decision is much harder than you think.
I was let go too from a company whose new management was (still is) horrible. They had already laid off 15% of my department. I was so looking forward to being next. I really hated it there but didn't want to quit because it had been such a nice place the previous three years, I kept hoping it would get better. It never did. I continued to work my 41 hours a week (while others worked more to make up for the losses) and was finally let go. It was a very happy day indeed.
I spent the next 6 months self training and relaxing. I would send out a couple of resumes a week. One day I received a call from an old friend from work who offered me a new job making more than I made at the last place with a much better work environment.
Of course, I had plenty of savings, no debt (other than house) and was able to collect unemployment. If you are prepared, unemployment can be a very relaxing time.
Instead, decide where your breaking point would be, and discuss it reasonably ("if this happens, I'd really have to leave, and neither of us wants that to happen"). You are NOT making threats. Make this clear. Explain that you will keep your manager informed as the situation evolves, and that you will not leave without warning.
If you do draw the line for management and they step over it, you pretty much have to do what you said you would. This is a life lesson of sorts... if people believe that you won't make good on your promises, they will come to assume that you are full of s**t and should be treated as such.
If you tell your employer "if I have to work more than 50 hours in a week I am not going to answer the pager/cell/phone if you put me on call this weekend", then make damn sure you do what you said you would.
Worse case you get fired and collect unemployment... but no matter the outcome, you'll be taken seriously.
First off, realize that no matter how good you think that you are or how much you think the company depends on you, they will just hire someone else to replace you and move on. It is a very rare case that a company just can't go on without a few people. You may inconvenience them for a while but that is about it. Life will go on.
Secondly, don't leave without a plan. If you have plenty of savings and job prospects then go for it. It would be best to line up a new gig prior to leaving the old one though. If you don't have savings and alternatives then its time to buck up and deal with the current situation. If you haven't set aside some cash, kept your fixed expenses low, and networked like hell then you deserve to be stuck. Learn your lesson and make plans to leave your options open in the future. There is nothing worse than being stuck in a shit job because you can't afford to leave.
Third, be professional. If you do leave just tell your boss that you have other opportunities that you want to pursue and give 2 weeks notice. Work hard and be pleasant for those two weeks. You will never regret acting professionally and you leave plenty of options open. You may want to work at this company again some day. You may want to use somebody as a reference. At the very least, you want people to think well of you after you leave. You never know where you will run into these people again. If you make an ass of yourself it could hurt you in the future.
Four, I would leave on my own and not as a group. Why throw fuel on the fire. Nobody can fault you for leaving on your own to pursue something else. Leaving as a group implies that you are intentionally trying to hurt the company. Its up to you but I wouldn't do it.
Last, be constructive and do things because they are what is best for you, not because you want to hurt somebody else.
But you have more control over overtime, and standard set raises even during slow times. Is it just my percention of IT people being anti union or is it me?
You only need to unionize if your personal value is close to zero. If you bring any kind of value to the company, and you actually work, then you can negotiate all of these things on your own. Unions are for the lazy and the incompetent.
If you are unhappy where you work, execute a job search and leave when you have another job. In the mean time, work with your bosses to see if you cannot improve the situation. If you do work with them and improve it, you will be happy AND you will be more important. If it does not improve, at least you have ammunition when you are asked what steps you took before deciding to leave at an interview.
Under no circumstances should you talk about leaving or hint that you are actively seeking another job. Their first hint should be your 2 weeks notice. Even if you think you are being nice, you really risk only creating suspicion.
If you are leaving because you are being exploited, then great; do what you would normally do when not happy: either leave now or find another job first and then resign.
But what is the point of the mass exodus? Are you trying to hurt the company? If so, then I see that as a big problem.
Are you trying to go off and start a new business with said folks? Then I suggest you take a measured approach: develop a business plan, get some contacts and/or contracts, possibly have a couple leave now to focus on the business while the remainders stay at the current (paying) jobs until there is stability in the new place.
If you aren't trying to go somewhere else with the group, then I really don't see the point to the exodus.
A bunch of posts here say "don't leave 'cause that'll look bad in an interview". I don't buy that at all myself. However, if you lead an exodus with no real (business) purpose then that WOULD look bad for sure.
... makes you work 50-60 hour weeks and generally treats you like dirt, you should also gather the best minds and organize a mass expodus. Loyalty is good, undeserved loyalty is stupid. Consider that it doesn't have to be based on self-interest, just appreciation of whatever/whoever you are loyal to and there is no need for exceptions.
You don't need to be a union to walk out, neccesarily. Here in Canada we have something called "Wildcat strikes", where regular employees band together for a specific purpose and walk out.
The submitter would do best to contact his local labour board (and legal counsil) to determine his rights in this regard. If not properly researched, it's entirely plausible that his employer could fire his entire department as a result. Fired for walking out == no UI and a lousy reference.
BD Phone Home!
Shameless plug. Like you weren't expecting it.
Since most people these days save nothing and live paycheck to paycheck, self-respect comes in a distant second behind money.
You can go an flip burgers, but that won't pay your $1,200 mortgage payment.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Communication (and the understanding that comes with it) really is the key to dealing with most situations that leave you pissed off.
Every single company I have ever worked for in the IT industry, going back over about a decade now, has had asshole management. Every single one has had groups of pissed of grunts (or groups of lower mgmt as I progressed). I finally reached the point where I stopped and wondered what the common link was?
People who work in IT are, now the gold diggers are gone, generally slightly obsessive, lacking in social skills, nerd types.
The managers have next-to no social skills. The grunts have next-to no social skills. Add in to that the grunts used to be treated like gold dust and have entitlement complexes while the management hated that and are now getting their revenge.
The thing is, you can't change the management. Now the economy is tanked, they know you have no leverage over them. You can get together and talk about mass walkouts but the reality is, unless everyone goes, they can hire new and retrain - and probably for less than they're paying you. And you know that at least one of your indignant group will buckle for the job security. Walkouts are a nice dream for taking the power back but they're just that. There goes your one form of leverage.
So, if you can't change them, what can you change? Well, there's the other side of the equation. If shit ain't going to get better, it's probably time to learn to deal with shit.
Find a good anger management book. It'll help you understand that anger is just stress manifesting with an anger trigger. Turning stress in to anger just leaves you pissed off and stressed. It'll help you learn to rephrase situations for yourself so you can dissipate that stress better.
One of the main things they'll talk about is the fallacy of entitlement. The notion of "should"s. You're probably reading this thinking, "Why should I have to be the one to change?!" Simple question for you: Honestly now, is there anything you can do to get them to change? Try thinking of three situations in your life where you've been yelled at and told you "should" change and have actually done so - do you think it'll suddenly work for your managers? If you can't get them to change, do you really want to just stay in the same stressful, unhappy situation?
Get a book, take a class, whatever, on anger management. It'll teach you to dissipate the anger so the next thing that comes up doesn't seem quite so bad. Once you're chilled, you might find better ways to get the change you want. Even if you don't, at least the fucked up job will be more tolerable.
Just like people should have savings to tide them over rough times, shouldn't companies? Why should an employee have to pay with his time when the company didn't see problems coming or plan for a downturn?
The company owes the employee a decent management team that doesn't run the company into the ground. If they can't hold up their end, all bets are off.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
There is no "company", a single malevolent entity that is treating you like dirt.
No, but there sure is a small circle of executives who make those tough decisions while on the way to the golf club in their 7 series BMW for a nice lobster dinner. The company I work for just cut vacation. I get 1 week a year now. I also have to take it before the fiscal year end on 9/1. So there's now no time to accrue vacation before christmas. How nice. And those altruistic beings who are just looking out for the company? Let's see how quick they are to give back that benefit once the economy turns around.
There are a lot of individuals involved in the decisions to ask more hours of you, put you on call w/o extra compensation, etc.. Right now, one of your managers is probably talking to his superior, saying "well, I guess we could ask W and X to handle those few extra on-call hours... it sure sucks, but they seem to be okay with the increases so far, and someone has to do it. That should keep customers Y and Z with us, so we'll be okay on payroll through this quarter, at least."
Talk about a major case of rose colored glasses. When these wonderful managers mismanage the company into the ground, then ask me to clean up their mess, should I?
You have to ASSUME that everyone is on your side from the very beginning, and start talking to your manager, their manager, etc.. Let them know that you and the other grunts are starting to give under the strain. Find out what the problems of the company are, and talk about how the company is dealing with them.
Have you ever had a paycheck bounce? I have. Have you ever had your employer siezed by the IRS for failure to pay payroll taxes? I have. Have you ever been promised bonueses on eight separate occaisions and received a fraction on one only once? I have. Have you ever been fired because your manager thought you were better than him? I have. Have you ever gotten in trouble for not predicting the future or reading someone's mind? I have. Have you ever predicted a project's failure months and millions of dollars in advance? I have.
Have you ever been warned before your employer goes out of business? I never have.
Employers are not on your side. Ever. There are only two possibilities. If it's a private company, they're on the owner's side. If it's a public company, they're on the shareholder's side. Never yours. You are a commodity to be exploited however possible, no matter what the HR propaganda says.
Instead, decide where your breaking point would be, and discuss it reasonably ("if this happens, I'd really have to leave, and neither of us wants that to happen"). You are NOT making threats. Make this clear. Explain that you will keep your manager informed as the situation evolves, and that you will not leave without warning.
And you'll be the first to be laid off. Employers want sheep. If you want to keep your job, act like one. Tell them nothing because they're certainly not volunteering any information. If you don't like your job, find another one. But never let them know you're looking. Otherwise, they'll remove you before you have the next job lined up.
Like it or not, you're in a business relationship with your employer. One in which you're at an extreme disadvantage. If your employer wants to cut your benefits, they simply say, "Well, things are tight, so we're zapping vacation this year." Can you imagine what would happen if you did that? "Well boss, you've been working me harder so I'm going to take an extra week of vacation this year." After the laughter subsides, they'll replace you.
The work culture in this country sucks. And it's time for a change.
Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
Walkout but make sure you have the next job ready
Unless its real bad, but having another job lined up before quitting your current one can not be stressed enough.
-Craig.
Now, here is the hard part.
Say NOTHING.
No contact, period.
Just leave, dont look back, accept no messages, open no mail, just send it back unopened. If your entire crew does that, you can insure that your former boss is toast. One thing that people do naturally is talk too much. Silence is power.
If you keep quiet, the HR department will be ORDERED to find out what happened. Meanwhile your group picks a single person who is NOT an employee to do all the talking for your side. If you let multiple people talk, they will turn your words against you. It also prevents you from being served with a lawsuit notice.
That person meets with HR off the premises alone, and gives them a single list of complains attributed to the group, without specifying individuals. HR will demand to speak to employees before anything happens. Resist and let them replace you if nessesary. Do NOT allow anyone from your group to speak with them for any reason, no matter how trivial.
The frustration will be directed at your Boss who is still there. Their ability to manage people will be questioned. There could be no other conclusion, due to your extreme position in not speaking with them. Your company will start looking for your boss' replacement while he is looking for yours.
You may never get your jobs back, but you can insure that the pain you cause your company will cause your boss to lose his job too. You need to decide just how far you are willing to take this. If you are just pissed off, you will get no satisfaction. If you are committed, you might be able to inact some sort of revenge on your former boss.
Look around at your group. If you have any pussies in it, forget the above and get back to work; you fucking slacker, you.
Loyalty and business do not mix.
this is the single most important thing that has ever been said on slashdot.
All of you need to remember this phrase. I dont care if your boss is your best friend, you have been there cince day 1, whatever...
when it comes down to the wire they are not and never have been loyal to you as an employee. They will can your ass with as much regret as not having chicken salad for lunch.
you as an employee mean nothing to them (management) because if you did, you would have been promoted into management. (and then you still mean nothing.)
Remember 2 important things.
1 - they do not own you. no matter how they try and make you think that.
2 - YOU are doing them a favor by working there, not the other way around. You were the cheapest they could find at your skillset. if there was someone cheaper, they would have hired them instead. and your replacement will walk into the job at a pay rate that you are at now or a little higher.
Dont trust your employer, dont be loyal to your employer, and do not under any circumstances forget that you are making money for them by doing them a favor in showing up every morning and using your skills and talents.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
You get drunk with your 'walk out' buddies. Then in the light of day, you wake up and have dinner. You basically do every you would normally do when you quit a job, including wish they had fired you instead so you collect unemployment.
Will you teach them a lesson? Yes; you will teach them that they can find cheaper people that are silly enough to work the long hours without complaint (for a while). You will help them fix their financial problem and/or help them to an ealier demise. But the chances of them begging you to come back like your were an abused spouse is probably pretty low.
Instead, I would opt for the 'fsck the bank I work for' mentality and go home when your tired, and live a happy life. When something better comes along, take it.
I think you underestimate just how much I just dont care.
Next time I see a resume like yours I'll be sure to hire you, make you do manual janitorial work and make sure to lower your pay to minimum wage the day after you accept the offer.
While you're lounging, your former teammates are cleaning up after your mess. Oh yeah, and remind me to blacklist you as broadly as possible."
... and from anonymous coward in reply to same grandparent: " That's just asking for Trollbait moderation. The rest of the country pays taxes so you can sit around and have a "good time"? Asshole."
Two things, if he's collecting unenployment, it means he didn't leave under his own accord. Secondly, it often happens that a person can't find a job that pays as much as unenployment. Why work a meanial job when you look for a better one and get paid as much or more doing it?
In responce to the cleaning up the mess crap, most contract jobs last only six months. Also, if he did bad work at previous jobs, the next employer would hear about it while checking backround. Idiots.
Why, o why must the sky fall when I've learned to fly?
Heh.
Unlike some of the rabid pro-union activists posting here, you make some very good points.
However, most of the crap and exploitation pulled by the managers is illegal. Working extra hours with no pay? In most of the first and second worlds, that's strictly illegal, unless covered by a specific employment contract provision. (and even then, it's often not considered an allowable clause)
Most unions I see today exist for two purposes: The well being of the union (first and foremost), and the exploitation of the company for the increased benefit of the workers. Both of these are bad.
The first is pretty obvious. People repeatedly ask me why the second is bad though, and you've hit one of the two nails squarely on the head.
1) The union should exist for the well being of the employee and the company both.
2) The union should ensure that the employee gets treated fairly--not better every year than the one before.
This second point is a bit awkwardly written, but I can't think of a better way to word it. When I hear about unions bargaining tools, they invariably want:
- better BASE pay (above and beyond cost of living and merit increases)
- better benefits (with no regard to the current benefits package)
- absolute job security (creating a disconnect between performance and security)
Now I will be the first to jump up and down about fair pay, good benefits, and just job security; but unions seem to be pushing hard to make sure that every year increases their well-being at the expense of the company. Furthermore, they do it by invoking/enforcing the dual image of management as utterly evil capitalists, and non-union workers as helpless opressed slaves. This is just crap.
Good, working unions aren't a bad thing at all, but they're needed rarely these days, and are almost entirely non-existent.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
"Lifer" colleagues of mine who thought that there was more in the relationship than mutual exploitation (with most of the power on the employer's side of the equation) had shocked looks on their faces when they were unceremoniously booted out the door.
Me, I work hard, do a good job, but monitor the warning signs and am ready to jump before I'm pushed. I've only had to do it once in a very long career. But if you don't have a "fsck you fund" built up that allows you to walk out when they start taking advantage, you are unprepared. If you do have it, and they know it, you'll find that you get more respect. If you show signs of weakness or dependency, they'll use that leverage.
Get your teeth into a small slice: the cake of liberty
It's true; most of the IT people I know (who are still in private industry -- I work for the government and we're ALL unionized, thank GOD) are vaguely horrified by the idea of unionization. I think it derives mostly from the following misconceptions fuelled by industry propaganda:
;)
1. Many in IT have an elevated sense of their skill's value -- they've been conditioned by society to believe in the "rich geek" myth, despite the fact that only a small fraction of the real geeks out there make more than 100K (and most are way, way down in the 30-50K range these days, if they even make that). So they have a sort of weird, "industry player" mentality, despite the fact that they're actually besieged by a crummy economy and lousy employer practices, and have no power whatsoever.
2. Many of the IT staff I've met don't like unions because it reminds them of their father's "day jobs" and the idea of turning out like their fathers (30 years at the same shop, standard work week, etc) horrifies them on at least a subconscious level. This is an ego thing. They want to be hip, trendy, capitalists, and talk about money. It's all go, go, go. They don't want to be hippie socialists! They're professionals! Meanwhile, all us hippie socialists are on vacation or working our humane, 40-hour work-weeks, spending time with our kids (who actually recognize us and don't call the nanny "mommy"), and wondering why the non-union guys have such a stick up their butts. Then, we live to a ripe old age, retired and fishing, long after all the stress-freaks have died from heart attacks, cancer, and aneurisms in their '50s after a joyless life of overwork. It boggles the mind -- but I'm getting sidetracked.
3. Many of the people in IT tend to think that they're going to be denied raises and perks because a union is seniority-based. But they don't factor in the fact that they're not getting raises and perks these days anyway. At least in a union, they'd have a standard yearly raise, but they don't see it. And, how are they going to get raises and perks when their position is outsourced? If they were in a union, it'd be really hard for the company to get away with that.
Add it all together, and IT staff are just basically hobbling themselves because of myths and nonsense. Their lives would be SO much BETTER if they were unionized. Their quality of life would improve by leaps and bounds. It's frustrating, because even when you tell them what they could have, they just shake their heads, squint their eyes, and say, "yeaaaaaah... whatever". Oh, well, what can you do?
It's pointless, because hardly anyone will listen, but here's another try:
IF YOU UNIONIZE, YOU'LL USUALLY GET:
1. A 40-hour work week, with time and a half for overtime, double time on sundays and holidays, and the potential for even MORE when holidays and weekends and overtime converge.
2. Full medical, dental, vision, and mental health benefits.
3. A REAL retirement plan -- a full pension, not some wussy 401(k) that'll be plundered by the CEO at first opportunity.
4. Enough sick days and personal days during the year to keep you out of trouble if you get put on your back by the flu.
5. Regular raises to match the inflation rate (at least), so you're not losing money over time due to the economy.
6. Most important of all -- a grievance procedure for those times when a manager forgets himself and tries to step over the line. When you're in a union, they HAVE to treat you with respect, or it's their ass. This alone is worth unionization. It also means you can't be fired unless you actually do something to deserve it, and layoffs can't be handed down without the company going through a whole negotiation process.
Being in a union means you're treated fairly, whether the company or your manager likes it or not.
Being in a union means that you're not alone against management -- you're shoulder to shoulder with all your coworkers (and, of course, the tens of thousands of p
Farewell! It's been a fine buncha years!
Talk about a major case of rose colored glasses. When these wonderful managers mismanage the company into the ground, then ask me to clean up their mess, should I?
... but then again, it might.
Ah, that cursed optimism of mine. Just can't shake it.
The funny thing is, though -- it can work. If you just scheme against management, they will know it and not feel any compunction at all about giving you the boot.
If you try to work with them (and yes, maybe help them clean up the mess, but also help them prevent it from happening again), it might not work (and you can usually figure out pretty early on if it's failing, and bail before you get yourself into trouble!)
There are companies where the intelligent, considerate but persistent person can really get ahead. There are companies where s/he doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell. Start slowly to find out where you are... and if you're the snowball-in-hell, you can either start stabbing backs and scrabbling, or just lay low, wait out the poor economy, and move on when you can.
There are only 10 types of people: those who understand decimal, those who don't, and, uh, 8 other types I forget.
I have some experience with this type of situation because I founded a company that was acquired and stayed along as they did a extra-professional job of ruining the organization I had built with my original partners. All of our original employees and the great team we built up after the acquisition were extremely disappointed to find what was previously an excellent company to work for turn into a hell-on-earth mess.
There are a couple of important things you might want to think about before having a mass walk-out at your current company:
Why the mass walk out? Is it to "teach management a lesson" and make yourselves feel better? If so, you should probably realize that everyone is better served if the people who are dissatisfied simply find other jobs (or don't find jobs if they have enough cash to ride out some unemployment) and leave in an orderly fashion. Give your two weeks notice, go to your next job, and hopefully you'll find yourself in a better situation.
Staging some sort of apocalyptic last battle that leaves the company IT department in shambles might be fun to fantasize about and possibly even fun to execute, but you really need to think about what actual benefits this will provide. Possibly some of the people who quit are now unemployed and under the gun to find something else. Possibly there are some people left behind in management who were actually all right folks who are now in a really hard position. Almost certainly anyone who is left behind to pick up the pieces isn't going to be a terribly useful reference for future work.
In a situation like this it is key to determine what value there is in striking a "victory" against your old department. A Phyrric victory is a victory where so much damage has been done to all parties involved that is is hard to actually call the nominal winner a true victor. Adopting a scorched earth mentality might be a fun posture to adopt, but dealing with the consequences can be pretty unpleasant for _everyone_ involved.
I had to sit around and watch the company I built go to hell. The smart people just found other jobs, said their goodbyes, and went on to bigger and better things - everyone stayed friends. Other people chose to sabotage the operation by sending employee lists to recruiters, complaining about things that weren't going to change, and just generally adding to an already terrible situation. These people all left or got laid off eventually, but they also destroyed a number of professional relationships that did not have to end with their attachment to the original company.
In short, please leave your job if it sucks because life is too short to work at a shitty job (unless you're contractually required to stay like I was). However, take a moment to think about how you leave that job and be sure that your actions actually contribute to your long term happiness and professional development rather than just making you feel good when you tell The Man to take his job and suck it.
Walkout but make sure you have the next job ready
I can second this. Myself and two coworkers recently (last Sept) left our old job for a new opportunity. We were all EE-majors doing IC design work at a major cell phone maker. It wasn't a bad job, but the dept was crippled by bad management. Projects that should have taken months took years instead, and even then a good bit of them were eventually cancelled. All the while the boneheads in the organization floated to the top and the whole mess degenerated into a political power grab for upper mgmt to feed their egos into thinking they were doing something important.
It might not sound untolerable, but trust me after you work on a project for a long time, spending uncountable hours of overtime on it, only to have some bonehead screw it up, you get seriously pissed off. So, after enduring this for a while, myself and a couple others (majority of the core people in our group) decided to look elsewhere. The choice of people was not accidental. The three of us were diverse enough in skills and experienced enough in past projects to function as a self contained design group.
Outside of work we negotiated with various people to move ourselves as a group to a new company. This is where industry contacts really pay off. This part took a long time (on the order of a year or more), and a couple of our opportunities collapsed before they ever got anywhere. But eventually we negotiated to all move to a new company and form a new design group. At that point we got offer letters extended to all of us, told our previous employer we were leaving, and a week later we were in new offices, with new cubes, etc.
Now in the short term it sucked as we all put in a lot of overtime in order to set a good impression on our new employers. They had a bunch of urgent projects for us to chew on, so they were eager to have us go. Everyone got ~30% pay increases to boot, so it all worked out. There is always the risk of unemployment in the near term, whereas in the old job one could assume some amount of job security (I personally think this is a bad assumtion), but I wouldn't change my decision either way.
The thing people should realize above all is that job security does NOT come from your job, it comes from your skills. If you have skills, you can get a job. Jobs come and go, but your skill set stays with you. The best thing you can do as far as job security is to learn as much as you can and augment your skills as much as you can.
I would recommend that if you know a group that is skilled and intends to leave a company, work on lining up a new job first. It may take time, but there are huge advantages in moving as a group. The new company should realize that in acquiring a group of people, they not only get new skilled people, but people that have proven that they -can-work-together-. This is a great benefit, especially if the group can work on its own. In addition, you end up knowing your coworkers, and what their skills are or are not. Pick good people, and move as a group, I would highly recommend it if you can do it.
The key here is that we had specific complaints, specific solutions we wanted, reasons why those solutions were the right ones, and we also had sufficient numbers (well, the whole company) that they couldn't ignore the issue.
Make sure that you know your reasons for taking action. Make sure that you've identified the core problems, and that you've all tried to address them with management directly.
Then figure out what solutions you think will fix the problems. New managers? New company policies? What exactly would make your jobs enjoyable again, while still helping the company through its tough times?
Lastly, be careful before you make specific threats (i.e. you do what we ask or we're gone). Unless you really don't care about the company at all, I assume you don't want to really threaten -- you just want to make sure that they know you feel strongly about the problems, and that you will have to take action. Make sure you do in fact have sufficient numbers and sufficiently important roles in the company to back up any threats of action that you do make. If you just look like a few cranks, nobody will take you seriously.
But really, it comes down to looking as though you care, you want to work things out, and you just want to bring attention to the problems. Keep in mind that you're going to have to go over someone's head to reach people who can take action, and you may create some pretty bad feelings in the process. You may well end up making things worse, in fact, if you're not careful. But if you care about the job and the company, and you really think things are intolerable now, and you've made reasonable efforts talking to people one on one about the problems...well, then it's certainly time to do something about it.
They also tend to always promote those with seniority rather than those who do good work. Generally unions are great for folks who don't like to work hard, but an eager capatalist worker gets the shaft. Unions are a great thing when the company is trying to shaft you, but all too often they cause more problems for the company and the employees than they solve.
A lawyer with actual experience in intellectual property, NDA and trade secret cases can advise you about important prep work before you leave that will give you partial protection. There's apparently no such thing as complete protection.
Take this seriously, folks. Not every employer makes rational decisions about litigation.
Have you ever even been in a union? Unions protect you from getting fired for punching in a minute late.
Yeah, sure...I've seen firsthand what unions do.
Unions keep the slacker from being fired who was found asleep on the day shift when the company prez toured the plant. Unions kept the slackers from being fired...until the whole place went under from being overloaded with slackers, costing Westbrook, Maine, hundreds of jobs.
go unions....
Walking out is dumb especially when you consider crappy economy, number of foreign workers who ARE willing to work for less and put in more hours.
Back in the IPO-crazy days people had no problems working 70, 80-hour weeks. Now that we are back to reality, why do you ask for something that you will never get back - time. Time that you could have spent with your family, friends, etc. is worth more (to me) than extra 10k that you can probably squeeze out of the Co.
Why don't you negotiate flex time schedule for ALL IT people in your group.
Either ask for more vacation time or Summer Hours schedule where you get to leave earlier on Fridays, like 1 or 2pm. If they won't give you more money, the least they can do is give you more vacation time and more personal days.
This is good advice. Your resignation letter should also contain pro forma regret. You can do that and remain sincere. "Regrettably" sounds polite; nobody can use it against you later; and it's business code for "I won't give you any chance to paint me as the one who was the problem, but FUCK you!"
Scenario:
Your boss requires you to work 50-60 hour work weeks without compensation. You and your co-workers are so fed up you want to just walk out. If you don't care if you get fired, and in fact wouldnt mind it as an alternative to quiting(mmmm unemployment) just start working EXACTLY a 40 hour work week to the second. Arrive at your desk promtly at 9AM work until your appointed lunch break, take a full but not long lunch break. Never ever ever ever eat at your desk or order food in. Leave the office for lunch every day. Finally, do just enough of your job to qualify as doing it. If you're in the middle of a line of code when 5PM rolls around stop, save your work, lock your workstation down and walk out the door.
If your employer complains or reprimands you point out that you are doing your job and doing it competently. If they want you to do more they need to compensate you for your work. Also, cite life events and create "plans" that are inflexible and preclude you from randomly working late. Kids/wife/sick family member work very well for this.
Basically, do nothing "wrong" but do nothing extra either. They'll either hook you up with a raise or fire you. Either way its on your terms.
"There is absolutely no way you can make that claim. In fact, from where I am sitting, the President has done a pretty good job at reducing terrorism- there has not been a substantial attack against us since 9/11."
Dude, there was never a substantial attack against us before 9/11. The Bush admin. does a good job of patting themselves on the back for keeping us safer, but if they did nothing after 9/11 there still would not have been any attacks.
I've had problems with my job working for a large company that's well known locally. I was seriously thinking of jumping ship, writing a scathing manifesto of the problems in my position and with my supervisors, and then looking for employ elsewhere. But since I don't have a job lined up to go into, I needed to get my finances in order to make such a leap.
I'm not good at saving and since my ex got the house in our breakup I don't have equity in much of anything that doesn't rapidly depreciate (car/computers).
I take at least 10% of my post-tax net pay and consider that off-limits. It goes immediately into long term retirement savings. This is above and beyond my 401K contributions. If I'm out of work I won't be contributing to long term savings so this is to fill that hole, but I found I had to take this out of my pocket first or I just couldn't learn to save it.
I cut my monthly expenses (rent, internet access, etc) from 40% to 30% of my net pay. No cable. One phone line. Do without heat or AC except in emergencies. The 10% saved went into paying off my credit cards and now goes into unplanned expenses. This also helps me become less dependent on those nice but unnecessary comforts so I won't miss them when I must cut to the bone.
I've started really being a tightwad about daily and spontaneous expenditures. This was where my biggest waste was. I now allocate only 10% of my net pay to food, gas, and these day to day consumables. If I have money left from this, I allow myself use it on computer books, dining out, and other spur of the moment luxuries. It makes it a very powerful incentive to save, but it was the hardest to get used to.
25% of my net goes to unplanned expenses. Car repair. Unplanned doctor visits. Rent and insurance price hikes. Stuff like that. This isn't to be used spontaneously, but it's not realistic for me to consider it "savings". Things will and have come up that have wiped out this pot of money and then some. But once or twice the pot has grown to more than $2K at which point I funnel the excess into savings.
The final 25% goes one of three places:
1. A kitty to pay expenses for eight months.
2. A pre-planned large purchase.
3. Long term savings.
The eight month expense kitty is a must have even if I wasn't considering quitting. I might get fired or laid off tomorrow so this is the biggest need.
The pre-planned large purchase is for something I need like a new car downpayment, a necessary computer upgrade, a training class, or a big birthday present for my dad's birthday. I keep it to one goal at a time and I know how much I need to save beforehand. It helps keep from getting carried away because I have $X burning a hole in my pocket.
Finally, if I have a full kitty and no preplanned item to buy on the horizon, I put the money into long term savings and don't think about it again.
It has taken me over a year to get disciplined enough to follow this method. There have been some suprises that have wiped out my plans. It's been really eye-opening to do this while I have regular income coming in. It's certainly not going to happen when I don't.
Finally, a couple of other things I've found are good to check out:
1. IRS filings. I paid someone to look over my returns for the past three years which I had self-filed. Good thing I did.
2. Credit rating and fico score. I was suprised that mine wasn't quite as pristine as I expected it to be (and VERY suprised at who had requested it)
3. Medical and dental health. Make sure that your in good shape because these expenses and health insurance will be much more expensive if not part of a company plan.
It's been more than a year to get in financial shape, but having not found a better job in the meantime I'm glad that I've been setting this money aside. Come my next paycheck I should have enough financial cushion to say goodbye if I want to.
One thing I decided to do though: Don't burn my bridges. I'm not going to write a goodbye manifesto to embarass
Follow the parent posts instructions and be guaranteed never to get promoted.
Gator/Claria is Spyware.
"They will can your ass with as much regret as not having chicken salad for lunch."
Written like someone who has never had to lay someone off. A good businessman will be willing to make hard decisions, but that doesn't mean he will have no feelings of regret.
"do not under any circumstances forget that you are making money for them by doing them a favor in showing up every morning and using your skills and talents."
I don't know about that; I know quite a few people that must cost their employers more money than they bring in. They do not "do their employers a favor" in showing up. Why aren't they fired? Not every employer is a ruthless business tycoon who can be modeled as a "rational man" decision maker. Spend a little more time working in the private sector, and perhaps your "black and white" take on the employer/employee relationship will be a little more realistic.
Seriously, companies are not your friends... If they were they wouldn't try to exploit you. There are some legitimate reasons for going above and beyond the call of duty, but assuming the dept. is run properly, they should be few and far between unless it's your own business.
Hopefully you are not tied down by a non-competition agreement with your current employer.
You're messin' with my Zen Thing, man.....
No, it's not false arrest, as they are not arresting you. Holding you against your will in the manner described is kidnapping. If they are refusing to allow you to leave, bring them up on felony charges.
Does it sound silly and petty? Yup. But so is making you work without getting paid for it.
Kierthos
Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
This is excellent advise. We consulted a well-regarded law firm specializing in intellectual property litigation before writing one line of code or drafting a single design document. We went so far as to go out of our way not to use any paradigms or algorithms from the previous company, even if they were considered general knowledge in the industry. That did not stop the lawsuit. I could go on and on about how frivolous the whole thing is, but unfortunately the goal wasn't to win the lawsuit, but instead to bury us in legal fees. They were successful in that regard.
Yes I have.
/owner.
My employees saw me mortgage my house to meet their payroll. They knew I was not taking any money from the business and that paying them was 1st.
in the end they knew that I was rare and did care when I had to let 1/2 of them go, with a promise they know I would keep.... in the future when things get better they have a guarenteed job here. I'll bet 50 bucks you would never do that. I have yet to meet a manager that would. yes I owned the company, and yes I am rare in the fact that I fought tooth and nail to keep it alive instead of taking the cowards way out and sell to the competition for a tidy profit while flipping a big finger to my employees.
Yes I have had to fire slackers... and I told them why. but I at least had the balls that all of the CEO's I have ever met dont. cut my pay to pay my workers, because THEY are making my money for me.
any businessman or manager that does not know this is a very poor manager
without all your employees.... you are out of business.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
An old employer of mine had a mixed staff: some union, some not. I worked in the analytical lab: one of the dozen or so instruments was designated "union." While I was there, Union Employee X was the only person allowed to touch this instrument. Luckily, Employee X was a hard worker and a decent guy: he even trained one of us to do samples on the QT so that everything wouldn't back up for 2 weeks while he was on vacation. The two previous iterations of X were not. They would come in in the morning and run the dozen or so samples their contract required. Finished by 10AM, they then read the newspaper the rest of the day. Too bad if you were one of the ~10 labs that needed a sample analyzed: you just had to wait until it got through the queue.
My personal favorite: distributing liquid waste cans was a union job. If you needed a waste can, you walked to the end of the hall and filled out a form and a union employee would bring you one eventually. Where were the new waste cans stored? Under the table with the form. But don't touch: I got reprimanded for carrying one back when I had forgotten a request the day before and the HPLC was about to overflow.
They didn't even do well by their employees. Shortly before I started there they went on strike despite wages and benefits well above the industry average. The company hired the salaried folks to work extra hours to keep up production. Productivity soared, errors dropped, and the union eventually slunk back to work with the same contract as before but no worker paychecks for a number of months.
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
I think unions are fine as long as most aspects of competition is maintained. Unionization is perfectly fine where there are not already protections that the law or nature of that profession/industry might already have. However, if the trade already has huge protections and caps, I think it should be illegal; have a trade association to represent you politically, but to gripe by workforce when such legal protections you asked for in the past blow up in your face is ridiculous.
For example, plumbers, electricians, and other blue collar workers tend to compete against others in the field. While they may be unionized, they are frequently not in the same company. While I realize in the past that some union bodies put caps on the population of their workers (or rather ratio to work load/jobs), I don't see that so much in these trades where I am.
In industry, it can be another matter. Autoworkers, food industry, e.g. Hershey foods, even teacher unions, I sometimes scratch my head. The demand to enter the industry itself is not restricted but the unions make it so (where I am, teachers are in great surplus; I realize that is not the case in all places (US)) but these unions tend to prevent new, adaptable workers from entering (worker monopoly almost). I don't really disagree with these unions, but sometimes their demands and actions are unreasonable and occasionally just outlandish. They frequently compare their salaries to executives and management, which is stupid, since to the common person, the union workers salaries are outlandish, and exec and management salaries almost all are considered ridiculous, so comparing one to the other really just undermines any effort the unions might have of appearing reasonable.
But where I hate unionization is at the professional, post graduate level, e.g. doctors unionizing. Makes no sense. There is already built in cap in several areas of the profession--entry to medical school is limited due to certification of schools. Residency positions are often limited (but not always, esp. primary care). Fellowships, et al. are limited.
They know this. They already use this to their economic advantage (which is fine). They get 6+ figure salaries by default (their salaries are fine); this coincides with their claims of long training (college, md, residency minimum). But again, they know all this; that's why they are already paid the big bucks. Control entry to a specialization, and the demand far outstrips supply of that service. And yet the profession continues to control entry into the field, often to the detriment (underserved areas such as rural and true inner city) of people they are suppose to help. And they still aren't happy? Give me a break.
They are already represented by hordes of associations (AMA is the biggest but slowest). And they seem to misunderstand that they already, by nature of their restricted entry training and professional, control their market and industry.
To me, this is like the RIAA or MPAA execs getting together and unionizing. wtf
Personally, I'd rather the states lift the licensing BY NUMBER restrictions on MDs and academic institutions. Then if they want to unionize, fine.
You're looking at this from a worker's perspective. Which is fine, given the context of the /. question and post you were addressing.
Loyality and business IF YOU ARE A WORKER and nothing more does not mix, you are absolutely correct. This may be a strange, thin line here, but really, workers are not really business entities unto themselves. They work on the same principles of businesses (pay for services/work) but are not in the end a business. You are not in business except for the paycheck for the work you do, not to profit beyond that or selling goods or services to a separate third-party. Again, the line may be difficult to see, but legally and conceptually it's not that hard to understand.
As worker, you must look out for yourself, and to that end, I agree with you.
But loyalty and business, true businesses, ARE ESSENTIAL. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a stupid idiot. I am not saying there will not be times where loyalty may have to be set aside for advancement of a company, but on an exec to exec or management to management or company to company level, it's absurd to think otherwise. Most of the fortune 500 companies are where they are because of loyalty to friends, relatives, alma maters, etc. Sure, there are plenty that fail, and these companies are the minority to all the companies that have collapsed, but loyalty is damn sure an essential, necessary element.
It just may not and certainly understandably should not be the only requirement to be sufficient for business success.
Freedom is priceless.
Do not be scared by lack of money.
Just put aside enough and then tell your
greedy asshole boss to go fuck himself
(politely if you're still in good terms).
If you have a mortgage/family, well you only
have yourself to blame for the shackles
around your ankles.
Free your mind and the rest will follow.
The union ideal has its merits but one major flaw. Unions do not account for skill. They presume all members once achieving the working levels are equally skilled. This is far from the truth from programmers. It would hurt he group as a whole because those doing more work can not be compensated for it.
I was in a situation once where "upper" management gave orders to lay off four members of my team. I didn't think it was fair, reasonable, or a good idea for the company and I let them know about it. I fought for three days to keep my staff. Ultimately, I was able to work out an arrangement where two people were put into an "early-retiremeny" program, and only one person had to be laid off. Contrary to popular beleif, having the responsibility of firing or laying someone off is a huge burden. Let me just say, that after this all went down I spent many hours helping this individual find a new job on my personal time. Not because I had to, because I felt obligated to help him out because of how many times he had helped me out at work in the past. You see, the employee-manager relationship is just like any human relationship. Employees who do the minimum amount will receive the minimum amount of payment, respect, favors, and growth opportunities. Employees who do everything they can, and actually care about the quality of their work, will receive the maximum amount of payment, respect, favors, and growth opportunities. The end result? I was promoted because I stuck to what I beleived in and wouldn't accept the status quo. My team saw the end result of my actions and worked much harder and had more synergy than ever afterwards, leading to very prosperous times. I will not hire employees now that have the "Im going to do the minimum amount of work" attitude. We only hire winners. At-leasters and losers can go on welfare or unemployment for all I care.
Less smoke breaks, bathroom stops, lunch, tea time, cube-aisle conversations about the latest ballgame/hot vidcard/cute intern...
One individual in a large team, maybe. A large team with thousands of man-hours invested in a given project? Not likely. The company could never replace the collective experience it lost, and even a replacement project team of the smartest hackers in the world would be hard pressed to catch up for months.
If there was cheaper labour around who could do the same job just as well, wouldn't the company already have hired them instead? I thought you had "at will" employment in the US?
If this sort of stuff is happening, then (a) it's probably worth a mild pay cut to get out if necessary, and (b) within a few months you aren't likely to have much of a job where you are anyway.
I've seen this before. Typically, in companies that survive, a few good people leave, management wakes up to the fact that conditions are not acceptable to the workforce and those who remain get an improvement in pay and/or conditions that is enough for them to stay. If management doesn't wake up fast enough, too many good people go, and the project fails.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
While I totally understand where your frustration comes from, not everywhere is like that.
Fortunately, it's a happy coincidence that a well-treated workforce is a more effective workforce. Keeping your staff sweet isn't just good manners, it's also good business. By cutting you down to only one week of leave, your employer has all but guaranteed a burnt-out workforce who will repeatedly take sickies within months, until they all quit because of the stress anyway. Even if they stick it out, they'll be out the door in a heartbeat when the market picks up.
The smart employer looks at ways to improve things for their staff as a priority. Happy staff are productive staff, and benefits follow. Some perks are effectively free if your working conditions don't prevent them: flexitime and pillow days come to mind. A few extra days of leave each year, or a $100 bonus to everyone in the product team when the release goes out, do cost, but they pay back many times over.
Although you seem to have had a particularly bad experience, there are smart employers in the world. The workforce owe it to themselves to go find the smart employers, so they can be more successful than the stupid ones, who will then go out of business, improving the overall smartness of management by evolution. :-)
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Here is the bottom line on pretty much any job I've ever had or seen any of my friends have (with one exception): always look for a better job. If you have power in your job, leverage it. If you don't, lay low and look for a situation or a job where you will. Walk out as soon as you find a better deal. Treat the company you work for as expendable.
Because, believe you me, this is *exactly* how they feel about you.
I was agreeing with you right up until you suggested using your retirement money to buy Doritos and pay the rent.
So you use up your retirement account to get by until you are earning again, at which time you start replenishing your retirement, until the next layoff. Rinse, repeat, and soon you are 60 and have about 5-7 years to make up 40 years of mortgaging your future.
There is no replacement for compound interest in saving for your retirement, and treating that money like a revolving loan means certain doom for your future. Once the money is in your retirement account(s), you must forget you ever saw it and leave it there to do it's job, which is to ensure your survival after you are no longer able to work. Planning for a rainy day is not a job for retirement funds!
Ick. Exactly why a useful lawyer will tell you there's no absolute protection.
...
My sympathy is utterly useless but you have it.
If anyone needs a concrete example of how bad things can get, one company sued a group of executives who left and sold a product that their former employer had failed to develop. The argument? They said that the knowledge of what approaches were dead ends was a trade secret. Yep, the former employer said they'd succeeded because they stole the former employer's secrets of failure.
Some of the defenses you can use are on the business side, not the legal side. They're also often out of the question:
o Leaving on a warm, fuzzy basis. That's about as rare and difficult as a "friendly divorce".
o Working in a field outside the former employer's business. Tough to do while using your professional skills.
o Not working for reptilian psychos in the first place. If only they came with warning labels
I think it's a matter of scale, that is largely dependent on how flat your organization is. My opinion is, if you're more than 2 levels away from upper management, the "chicken salad" comment does apply to those people in upper management laying off those people more than 2 levels below them. They don't know you, and they don't really know your boss either.
A boss will hate seeing one of their people go. I've been there, and when management hands down the edict that 2 people from the dep't have to be let go in order to keep the budget balanced, one agonizes over those two people. But the boss's boss doesn't, although he has a sense of regret for the skills going out the door. The ones they do care about are those people who are highly-skilled, well-known in the company, and are leaving the company because of the massive layoffs. And those they try to buy back.
If there are fewer than 50 people in your company, chances are good any layoffs will be an incredibly painful decision for management. If you have more than 500, it becomes more of a numbers game and far less of a "we rely on so-and-so so she can't go" issue.
But corporate management culture is its own thing. The guy you're laying off today is going to be your boss or co-worker tomorrow. It's crazy how incestuous a culture corporate management is in many states. Most of them (I say "them" as a former manager who defected back to "pure tech" and intends to stay there) have a very "live and let live, don't hold grudges" attitude. Pragmatic and helpful for them, but the average Joe Worker generally isn't so aloof about his job.
Of course, this is stereotyping and every person is different. But as a rule, I don't believe that, in general, upper management at large (>500 workers) corporations really care about the plight of their workers -- they care only about how the plight of their workers affects their bottom line.
Matthew P. Barnson
I learn what I think when I read what I write
I had something similar happen with an ISP I worked for. The entire engineering team walked, including the senior tech that had built the entire network from the ground up. Never heard from them after that.
When the economy sucks, the capitalists rape the employees, demanding more and more, squeezing them like a lemon for their drinks. When the economy booms, the employees demand more and more for themselves.
What's the difference? People are acting like shits either way, and they're both doing wrong, but you also have to look at where the harm is. Do I harm the company by demanding more money and benefits? Maybe; they factor that into their costs. If they can't make money the company tanks. But: the executives do the same thing whether the economy is good or bad and often, these days, drive the company into the ground themselves.
On the other hand if the company squeezes the employees, the employees suffer not just hurt, but harm. They don't like the stress; yeah it's unpleasant, but there are also real-world effects from this stress. Their health suffers. Their families suffer. When the employee comes home and has half an hour to eat, clean house, discipline their kids and try to come down from a bad day, something important is going to get skipped. Their children end up being raised by Jerry Springer and MTV. A frustrated employee lashes out at their spouse, their kids, and everyone they encounter. That anger passes into society, and the poorly-raised children grow up to commit crimes, or have emotional problems. People have all this money and no time to spend it living life, so they throw it away in empty consumerism. The employee is now driving a vehicle twice the size of a '75 Buick, and the environment is filled with pollution and garbage as all this crud spreads throughout the world.
All due to the greed of the company.
O~ Him that studies revenge keeps his own wounds green. -- Francis Bacon