Roswell Declassified

John3 writes "Scotland may be the most popular UFO destination on the planet, but Roswell, New Mexico is the old favorite for government conspiracy buffs who believe the US government has been hiding proof of an alien spacecraft crash in 1947. Popular Mechanics has recently gained access to de-classified documents from the Roswell military base, and they contain no entries of unusual events or activity. I wonder if the release of these documents will deter the conspiracy theorists?"

Comments

It won't :)

[zaqattack911]

Conspiracy theorists are only fed by government denials. Look what happened to NASA when they started to talk back at Moon landing doubters.

zuchini

Re:It won't :)

[LastManOnEarth]

Ok, Let's make a few points here... (1)Aliens can definitely exist. BUT... That doesnt mean they have to fly in saucers ,look humanoid, have interest in us, even develop sentience or technology. A microbe that is extraterrestrial is an "alien".You cant prove the ground under your feet isnt alive just because it hasnt proved itself to you that it is. And considering the bizaare circumstances that created life on earth was astrnomically rare (no pun intended :P)only created one sentient lifeform here that we know of the chance of meeting intelligent life in this universe is near null. (2) Id like to point out the trends of UFO sightings in past happen to coincide with alpha technology of the respective periods (ie. cigar shaped = jet/ boomerang = flying wing/ saucer previously mentioned)And due to angles and atmospheric conditions, man made sattellites that can be seen with the human eye from the ground tend to look distorted and move in odd directions. Notice that most modern footage is taken at dusk or dawn? Thats from sattellites being so far up they still are reflecting the sun and our atmosphere either squashes and/or stretches or even reflects it multiple times. This phenomenon is well documented and can be easily verified. Im not saying that all phenomena can be explained away so easily, but until we have proof (alien artifact/body/public first contact)I'll remain anchored to what logic seems to point too. That we are indeed alone as far as intelligent life and people are still desperately trying to find something to believe in.

Re:It won't :)

[dissy]

(snip) You dont have proof we landed on the moon (/snip)

Well, we do have proof that we have sent craft to the moon.
There is a flag on a pole that you can see with a powerful telescope, controlled by the same places that give us the wonders of technology we can see the outcome of on earth.

There are also mirrors on the moon which you can use to reflect lasers back (Granted the hardware to do this is pricy, but 'anyone' can do it)

Now, this just proves we have sent things up into space that ended up on the moon.
Doesnt prove it was a person.

But using your basic logic, if we have the technology to send a craft to the moon that can plant a flag and posistion mirrors, and return with samples from the moon, that exact same technology could very well hold a person inside as well.

Its sorta like saying people dont fly fighter jets because you cant see the people when the planes fly overhead.
While that is logically true, if you look at a jet, there IS room for a person in there, so its not at all improbable or impossible.

But there is just no convincing some people i guess :)

Re:It won't :)

[podperson]

And considering the bizaare circumstances that created life on earth was astrnomically rare (no pun intended :P)only created one sentient lifeform here that we know of the chance of meeting intelligent life in this universe is near null.

I recall one scientist suggesting that if you have life on a planet then intelligence is almost inevitable. After all, he pointed out, it's arisen independently three times on this planet.

But then folks says lots of dumb things, especially when it's not exactly in their field of specialisation. I recall an interview quoting David Brin as saying "if there's life on other planets, we'll probably be able to eat it" -- a brave prediction given there's plenty of stuff on Earth we can't eat, either because it's poisonous or biologically alien to us (e.g. stuff outside the plant and animal kingdoms is frequently highly toxic).

Pondering the probability of imponderables is good work if you can get it. Carl Sagan quotes what he admits is a very crude formula -- 1/10 stars has a planet, 1/100 (?) stars with planets has a habitable planet, 1/10 habitable planets has life, life always develops intelligence, intelligence always builds radio telescopes but only has a 1/10 chance of surviving the invention of nuclear weapons, etc. always seemed to me to be far more sketchy as it got to the right side of the blackboard.

What are the odds that an alien intelligence will have a metabolism in our preferred timescale and thus be able to communicate with us in real time? What are the odds it will "see" and/or "hear" as we see and hear? Would an organism that sees with bat-like Sonar be able to convert a prime x prime grid of pixels into a recognisable image or set of symbols?

Bat-like sonar is a sense possessed by a creature quite closely related to us using parts of a brain very similar to ours. Imagine how alien an alien brain connected to alien sense organs might be.

Then there's the convergent evolution argument (exemplified by David Brin). DNA is obviously the best way to encode genes. Expect aliens made of cells, quite possibly with familiar proteins, carbohydrates, DNA etc. etc.

And who knows, maybe silicon-based life is actually by far the easiest one to come by and we're remarkable in that our solar system appears to be devoid of it. But silicon life all lives much slower-paced lives than we do so we simply couldn't relate to it...

By the way sentient i.e. "having a faculty, or faculties, of sensation and perception" is a rather low bar. There's a huge number of sentient creatures on Earth. If you're going for self aware, dolphins, gorillas, chimpanzees, elephants, dogs, and probably several other animals have demonstrated self-awareness.

Id like to point out the trends of UFO sightings in past happen to coincide with alpha technology of the respective periods

I think Weather balloons are well into beta by now...

That we are indeed alone as far as intelligent life and people are still desperately trying to find something to believe in.

To misquote Steve Martin: "With all the crazy superstitious people out there, I don't know what I'd do without my astrological mood-ring".

deter or encourage

[Stinson]

either this will deter conspiracists, or just give them a new argument that the government removed the unusual entries before declassifying them. There really will never be a way to prove that declassified documents aren't modified

Right

[Matthaeus]

And the documents that were declassified were all the documents associated with Roswell, right? All unaltered? Hey, look over there!

Not that I'm a rabid conspiracy theorist, but anybody who is willing to believe in a government coverup of that magnitude won't be pacified by a bunch of relatively easily-faked "declassified" documents.

Re:Right

[StarTux]

Considering Clinton was unable to hide his affair and that the F117 was also known well enough about I doubt, very much doubt anything of this magnitude could be hidden. Heck, even the Chinese stole nuclear secrets.

Will it deter conspiracy "theorists" ?

[Infonaut]

Uh.. no.

Conspiracy theories are not really theories, in that they can never be disproved. The theory that the earth is flat can be disproved; the theory that aliens have infiltrated the highest levels of government can't be disproved.

Conspiracy theory is a belief system, and as such is highly resistant to facts.

Re:Will it deter conspiracy "theorists" ?

[TummyX]

The theory that the earth is flat can be disproved; the theory that aliens have infiltrated the highest levels of government can't be disproved.


I don't understand the difference between those two. How is it that you can prove the earth is flat but yet can't prove the goverment has been infiltrated by aliens?

For example, how do you know that all the aliens in the government aren't faking all the evidence for the round earth? For all we know, all the evidence is just an illusion that is sustained by drugs the goverment puts in the drinking water.

Re:Will it deter conspiracy "theorists" ?

[Blondie-Wan]

the theory that aliens have infiltrated the highest levels of government can't be disproved. Conspiracy theory is a belief system, and as such is highly resistant to facts.

What a coincidence - so are the highest levels of government.

;)

Re:Will it deter conspiracy "theorists" ?

[Matthaeus]

Go into the mountains. Put a unique item of some sort that you can test the uniqueness of (a large random number that you have memorized would work) in a safe and bury it. Note the GPS coordinates.

Now start walking west. When you get back to the coordinates, open the box. Verify the number.

It may not mathematically disprove the earth is flat theory, but if everyone who thought that the earth is flat did this, the rest of us could get some real work done. :)

(Alternately, you could take a few physics or engineering courses and try to figure out what sort of material could make an object the size and mass of a flat Earth and not collapse into a sphere under its own weight.)

Conspiracy theorists.

[Montreal Geek]

I think the poster misses the point about how conspiracy theorists think entirely.

If the files show no information about anything odd happening, then of course it means they were cleaned to hide the truth. The fact that there is no proof of their pet theory is proof that there was a cover up to hide it.

This is the reason why those kooks annoy me so much; it's not that they beleive in a complicated, contrived scenario so much as they use the lack of proof for their delusion as proof of correctness. Making them, by definition, immune to logic or facts.

This is probably going to hurt my karma to dare say so, but one cannot help but notice the parralel with most religious beleif systems.

I guess the bad-guy-of-faith has been transposed from satan to some illuminati for those who feel the need to explain life by intervention deus ex machina rather than accept its unpredictability.

-- MG

Re:Conspiracy theorists.

[Surak]

Strange. I would say that I "believe in the Bible", because archaeological and historical evidence bear it out - from fulfilled prophecies, to supernatural events, to plain old facts. Its remarkable insight into human nature could also be considered contributory evidence of its divine nature.

Really? So rabbits chew their cud? There is archaeological and historical evidence of an actual flood that occurred 3000-4000 years ago in which all the people and animals of the earth were populated from the ones on that took a ride on an ark? The earth is only 6,000 years old? The earth is flat and has four corners? Note also that there is NO RECORD of Jesus bin Miriam's birth, life, or death (other than the Bible) despite the fact that the Romans kept meticulous records. Also note that there is no Egyptian record of the Jewish people ever being enslaved by them, and then freed by Moses, despite the fact that Egyptians also kept meticulous records.

There holes in the Bible big enough to drive a Sherman tank through without hitting anything.

Fake

[nEoN nOoDlE]

Those de-classified reports are obviously fake. The real UFO documents will never be de-classified due humanity's inability to deal with Extra-Terrestrial life on this planet.

Well, all personal conspiracy theories aside, why would this stop anyone from making up conspiracy theories? No one in their right mind would believe that the government would declassify documents that they feel could be damaging to themselves or the US public. Are they gonna declassify that they shot JFK (if they did) even 100 years from now? I think not.

Re:No closure here

[ibennetch]

But then again, the only proof may or may not be locked in a hanger somewhere, it's hard to tell.

True, but the thing that I question (assuming "something" happened there, which I neither have an opinion on nor care about, this is just a mind-game) is the first-hand reports of the military and government personel who were involved -- especially in any cover-up. Here's what happens:

- Something happens
- "they" cover it up, remove all evidence and delete any documents reporting anything about "it"
- Everyone invovled dies of old age (Roswell was what, fifty years ago -- another twenty or thirty years and no first-hand witnesses will be around)
- No one ever finds out the truth

John3: to answer your question....

[wowbagger]

John3 (the story submitter) wrote:

I wonder if the release of these documents will deter the conspiracy theorists?

Having read the first few posts on this story, do you consider your question answered?

NO answer from the government, nor indeed from anybody will quiet the conspiracy theorists:

• "Here's all the documents on the base - see, no unusual activity."
  "Yeah, like you'd release the REAL documents rather than these forgeries!"
• "Here's the documents - something landed, but we aren't sure what. Here's all the info we have."
  "SURE that's all the info you had - see, we told you there were hiding something, and they still are!"
• "Greetings people of Earth. I am the ambassador from the Galactic Federation. Now that you have achieved the required levels of societal and technological advancement, we are allowed to make contact. Yes, you in the back..."
  "Have any aliens landed on Earth before this?"
  "No, that is completely forbidden under our laws."
  "SURE nobody else landed here - YOU ARE COVERING IT UP!"
  "Perhaps we jumped the gun on your societal evolution...."

COVER UP!

[isa-kuruption]

These documents are from Area 57... they just whited out the horizontal part of the 7 so you THINK they are real!!!

Roswell Log Files!!!

[Chromodromic]

July 4, 1947

Cpt D Anderson, Dty Ofcr
Base Log Entry

HOLY FUCKING SHIT! UFO landed today!!! Aliens look like Gumby dolls with big heads!!! Jesus, they're ugly!

As if this shit isn't enough, there's some guy hanging around all day smoking cigarettes like they're going to be illegal tomorrow. He says he's "in charge". Whatever. I'm out in two months anyway.

Also found: Advanced weaponry, an anti-gravitational drive, a cure for cancer, and alien porn! It's revolting, but I'm strangely aroused.

NSA ADDENDUM: Please strike all this shit out. This is supposed to be a secret. Cpt. Anderson, please see me.

Well, slow day here today. Nothing happened, nope, no sirree, not a bit, quiet here, yup, quiiieeeeet.

What an odd idea

[kfg]

"I suspect that once the world is dominated by one country, one culture, one affinity, that we will actually know the truth."

This is like saying that if there were only one newspaper we'd know the truth. Or that China is the paragon of open information.

It is only through the maintenence of mulitiple sources of information, power and control that the truth can ever be known.

KFG

Put your tin foil hats away, please

[stwrtpj]

Rather than replying to a whole bunch of tin foil hat brigade posts, I'm going to combine what I know of the case into one post. In my younger and more foolish days, I was a UFO nut and soaked up every account of alien visitors. As I got older, I started looking at many of the facts of the case in a more objective light.

The conclusion I have come to is that the Roswell case is a conglomeration of multiple accounts of unrelated occurences occuring over the span of ten years that were later cobbled together into a single, misinformed account.

There is one very important fact that needs to be made clear about the entire Rosewell bru-ha-ha. A lot the publicity for it, namely the theory that an alien spacecraft crashed there, did not come about until well after the incident. In fact, it was not until as late as 1978 that alien bodies were ever associated with the incident.

So, bearing this in mind, here are some of the little factoids about the case that appear to have perfectly logical explanations:

• The little alien bodies - For some time durintg the late 1940s and early 1950s, the USAF conducted a series of tests which involved shoving anthropomorphic dummies out of planes from high altitude, usually to test parachute equipment. These dummies often wound up in people's farms. Not only did the USAF not cover this up, they encouraged people to report the location of these dummies, and even paid rewards for them. No coverup here. This is all documented.
• The alleged bits of alien spacecraft scattered over the landscape - The oft-repeated refrain from the tinfoil hat brigade is that the government claimed that this was a weather balloon. This term is a misnomer, and was never used by the USAF. This term was invented later. At the time of the alleged crash, the USAF had just started Project Mogul, which involved the launching of several high altitude balloons for various scientific experiments, including the effect of cosmic rays on living tissue samples. In fact, the very first such balloon crashed at about the time that the supposed alien ship crash happened. Once again, this is all well-documented, including the locations where these dummies we retrieved.
• The living alien at the hospital - Many accounts of the incident involve an actual living alien being escorted by USAF personnel. The figure is discribed as having the characteric large head of other supposed accounts of aliens. This is yet another case of an unrelated event being tied to Roswell. In 1959, a Captain Dan Fulgham received a nasty head injury that caused a massive hematoma. As a result, his face and head swelled to grotesque proportions. Even his own wife didn't recognize him at first. Documented. No coverup.

Ok, this post is long enough. There are lots of other little factoids from the case (the so-called "Missing Nurse", the alleged "red-headed captain" that threatened people if the said anything, etc) that I could go into, but all of these facts can be found with a little investigation.

But I can predict the responses now: "The government planted those other stories to throw us off the trail!" "They're feeding disinformation to us.!" Bull-fucking-shit. Check your history, people. The US government sucks at covering up anything of importance. Anything that remains classified now from that long ago, it's largely because no one considers the information important.

Finally, here's another one for you: You say we recovered advanced alien tech. You say we recovered alien bodies. Then tell me: Where the hell is this technology? 56 years is a hell of a long time. We've gone from vaccuum-tube ENIAC that fills a room to a 2.6 gigahertz PC that sits in your lap. If we can't in that space of time figure out what made any alleged UFO from Roswell tick in that space of time, then either it never happened, or the government scientists are all idiots. And don't claim that things like stealth tech resulted from alien technology. Give humanity credit for be

Re:you skeptics amaze me...

[stwrtpj]

Then, the Air Force said the *alien bodies* were actually dummies used in testing human conditions at high altitudes (ie. ejecting at high altitudes), yet the tests didn't start for 5 plus years AFTER the *Roswell Incident.*

And the first tinfoil hat conspiracy theories did not come up until years after this

Read my rant titled "Put your tinfoil hats away, please", and educate yourself.

He was asked what was inside the infamous hanger, and he said never to ask that question to him again.

OMG, yes!! Wow!! Thanks for reminding me of that! Yes, wow, that one statement conveys sooooooooooooo much. I'm so, like, totally enlightened now! Of course, when someone answers a question like this, it certainly MUST be code for "There's an alien spacecraft in there, but you didn't hear that from me."

Dude, do you think that just MAYBE his response REALLY meant: "I've been ask that same assinine question before by every single UFO nut out there, and I'm goddamn fucking tired of it."

Re:No closure here

[Goalie_Ca]

I really hope you don't mean the U.S. country/culture owning the world. They may try but they don't know that canada has a secret army stashed away in the rockies and a secret moonbase death star. You will all become Canadian. Muhahahaha!

Re:I don't know...

[MADCOWbeserk]

but the truth is we got UNIX from the Roswell UFO

So this means SCO doesn't have a case?

Real cover-ups

[Animats]

Here are some real events in the US that were covered up:

• DuPont family member sets up secret training camps for paramilitary forces in preparation for a coup against Pres. Roosevelt. (1934)
• US Explorer space satellite program was a cover story for spy satellites. (1960s)
• The "Tonkin Gulf attack" used by Pres. Johnson to justify the Vietnam War never happened. (1964).
• Bush crony involved in massacre of gold miners in Tanzania. (1996)

Re:Of course it won't...

[sebi]

If these declassified documents are truly complete, there HAS to be a reason they were classified in the first place.

Maybe the fact that Roswell, according to the article, was "home to the only atomic bomber unit (at Roswell Army Airfield) in the world" had something to do with it. We are talking 1947 here. The war has ended two years ago and the fight against commies is on. Could it be that all documents from that base were automatically kept secret? Were you able to look at the records from the 3rd of July 1947 before now? What about the 5th?