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Xbox Linux Made Possible Without a Modchip

Posted by CowboyNeal on from the well-and-probably-software-piracy-too dept.

An anonymous reader writes "Free-X have released an exploit for the Xbox that will let you get Linux on the machine without any hardware mods at all... Microsoft is already threatening them with legal action. Here's the Free-X statement. Free-X say they had been trying to contact MS for a month but were ignored, which is why they've released the exploit. Should be interesting to watch this one."

97 of 996 comments (clear)

  1. Woops, too late by Iscariot_ · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Too late for Microsoft. It's been released. No way of stopping it. Just like Nintendo had no way of stopping UltraHLE.

    --

    Go here for teh [sic] funny.
    1. Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Learning is not "illigal"?
      Perhaps you should exercise your "rite", then.

    2. Re:Woops, too late by Anonvmous+Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "go them, its M$ own fault."

      MS's own fault? They have no obligation to fill that request. They do, on the other hand, have reason not to comply as their units are sold at a loss. On top of that, the way MS was approached was lame. "Give us what we want that's not in your own best interests or we'll tell people how to break your machine and potentially lose more money by having people buy XBOXes for uses other than buying the games that make them money."

      Frankly, I don't see how Free-X would have felt that they were approaching MS in a reasonable way. Their handling of this situation was irresponsible, and trying to sound like the victim here makes things worse. They've essentially validated the need for the DMCA. All MS has to do now is post a loss as a result of it, and the courts will have to factor that in their decisions.

      It would be a really good idea to make sure that whatever comes of Linux on the XBOX encourages people to continue using their XBOX as a game machine. Use it to do stuff that doesn't get in the way of playing games. Playing movies or MP3s is good, they can pop their game disc in and play. Using it as a server is bad, they want it up all the time and don't want to interrupt it.

      I'd feel a whole lot better about this situation if the people involved were trying to expand the use of the system instead of just flipping off Microsoft. (I'd also feel better if uses for this machine running Linux weren't better served with a cheapy PC.)

    3. Re:Woops, too late by EzInKy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Though I agree with some of what you say the bottom line is the purchaser of an X-Box owns the machine, not Microsoft. He can do what ever he wants with the hardware once he has the sales receipt in his hand.

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    4. Re:Woops, too late by Dr.+Evil · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "Give us what we want that's not in your own best interests or we'll tell people how to break your machine and potentially lose more money by having people buy XBOXes for uses other than buying the games that make them money."

      It's a little more like:

      "You know that problem you wouldn't help us with? Well, we figured it out, but we don't think you'll like the solution. Can you help us with an alternative solution which is in your best interest? No? Ok, then we'll just do it our own way."

    5. Re:Woops, too late by MrLint · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's yet another example of the wild-wild-west type environment that the Information Age is in now

      Well the information age has become the age of the consumer, by default, is a criminal. So really the wild west analogy makes some sense here. If this current trend keeps up of "protecting" big business from all of their paranoid delusions there wont be anyone but 'criminals' left. We know full well that the RIAA/MPAA would ban what we know as 'fair use' in a heartbeat if it meant more sales. They wish to control sales, distribution and methods of consumption. Don't consume your music in fashion they want? You are a criminal.

    6. Re:Woops, too late by Geek+of+Tech · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Did Parent actually read any of the articles? I believe in Free-X's statement said...

      /* Beginning of quote */

      Since our attempts to contact Microsoft have become public knowledge our team has been accused of attempting to extort or blackmail Microsoft, this is not true as we have made every attempt possible to make contact with Microsoft to offer the following:

      - A complete summary of all hacking technologies (many of these technologies have not been released).
      - Source Codes.
      - All attacks which have been developed but not yet released.
      - To sign a Non-disclosure Agreement regarding our discoveries.
      - Further research on exploits, which would be exclusive to Microsoft.
      - Full names of all hackers involved upon agreement of legal protection from Microsoft.
      - Assistance in the development of future security for the XBox by working with Microsoft.

      For the exchange, we were requesting but not demanding the following:

      - Complete access to all documentation (chipsets, video etc.) to assist in developing a better Linux for the XBox.
      - A signed Linux loader.
      - Protection from Microsoft or support if any organisation/government attempted to prosecute members of our team.
      - Refunding of the cost occured during the agreement period.

      /* End of Quote */

      I think the threat went more like You listen to us tell you about the security vulerability that would probably tick off content creators or we'll tell everyone else in hopes to get you to fix the code.

      Do you get mad when someone discovers a flaw in Internet Explorer? Oh, but this is different, they're blackmailing Microsoft...

      Once again quoting - "For the exchange, we were requesting but not demanding the following:... A signed Linux loader.

      From Parent - Frankly, I don't see how Free-X would have felt that they were approaching MS in a reasonable way. They offered to give microsoft all the code and to sign a non-disclosure agreement. They requested in exchange a linux boot loader. They asked. They didn't say "Give us what we want that's not in your own best interests or we'll tell people how to break your machine and potentially lose more money by having people buy XBOXes for uses other than buying the games that make them money." The bootloader was optional. They would give Microsoft the code either way. Microsoft wouldn't even listen. So what part was unreasonable? Disclosing the code, because Microsoft wouldn't listen? People do that all the time. Asking for something in exchange for work? Oh yeah, that unreasonable. Especially when you relize they were just asking.

      --
      Stop the Slashdot effect! Don't read the articles!
    7. Re:Woops, too late by Famatra · · Score: 5, Informative

      Up the Mod of the parent since it is entirely correct.

      They did not "blackmail", as the last Slashdot article ad-libbed in its summary, Microsoft but gave them every opportunity to cooperate in creating a signed Linux loader.

      As well the released code by X-Free does not allow you to pirate games. (Although by modifying their release and using their same technique it could be.)

      As well it must be remembered that there is no EULA for hardware, we are freely able to use hardware we bought anyway we choose to. As well, people are legally able to reverse engineer the hardware, much the same way that other game consoles (NES, SNES, N64, PSX) were reverse engineered to create emulators like BLEEM.

      P.S. Remember that it is likely the computer you are using now (IBM-CLONE) would not be here without the work of people reverse engineering the original IBM desktop computers.

    8. Re:Woops, too late by EvilAlien · · Score: 5, Insightful
      As far as I'm concerned, the XBox is a "cheapy PC".

      What are the odds of the courts saying the following to Microsoft?

      "You sell your systems at a loss... that is a bad business decision, and it is not the court's responsibility to protect you from the consequences of your mistakes. Its a business gamble to rely on sale of an accessory to a product to make that business unit profitable. The consumer owns the product when purchased and has the right to decide how they use it, you are infringing on their rights but limiting that choice. We will not protect your poor business model."

      In other words, "suck it up, princess".

      --
      perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'
  2. After reading the articles... by RobPiano · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It seems we've had a lot of false and misinterpreted information about this team and their exploit. I don't have an x-box and only somewhat understand why their exploit would work (integer underflow..?), but it atleast sounds interesting. Anyone on slashdot who gets it working please post a verification.

    As far as the team... I think they should have submitted their findings to a legal firm of some kind instead of this not-so-holy covert behavior. Their behavior will only lead to troubles in court.

    Atleast they'll have $100,000 to help them out, I think they'll need it.

    Rob

    1. Re:After reading the articles... by Farrell · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's too bad they probably won't get the 100k. In order to get the files onto the xbox, you need to use a prior exploit that DOES require something(007 save, swapping HDD etc).

      --
      I want you to assume that all spelling and grammar errors are intentional. Thank You.
    2. Re:After reading the articles... by Kaeru+the+Frog · · Score: 4, Informative

      The DMCA. Circumventing a copyright protection system is illegal.

    3. Re:After reading the articles... by RobPiano · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > How is releasing information about a bug going to land them in court? Microsoft had plenty of time to respond, but they didn't.

      You can sue over basically anything. They could bring them to court simply to say they thought their assertion of demands/requests resembled black mail. They have the weight/money/political connections to bring a very trivial detail into the court room.

      You should never challenge a powerful company like this. Have a lawyer draft up all communications, keep complete records of all activies and communications within the group, and do not volunteer any information without council present.

      Having help doesn't make you look guilty, it makes you look prepared and intellegent. The way these guys handled their communications (spelling errors and all) makes them look like out of control destructive teenagers.

      Rob

    4. Re:After reading the articles... by Eyston · · Score: 5, Informative

      why their exploit would work (integer underflow..?)

      It looks at the file. The first four bytes are how big the file is, including its own size. So if the file is 16 bytes long, that is 4 bytes of the header and 12 bytes of data. That first four bytes reads 16.

      So the XBox reads in the first four bytes (16), takes 4 away and then knows to look for 12 more bytes (16-4).

      Apparently it uses those first four bytes (16) to allocate the memory. It then takes 4 away from that value (4 from 16 is 12) and reads those bytes (next 12) into memory.

      Well, if you feed it 0..3 instead of 16 in that example, you get an underflow. It sees those first 0..3, takes away 4, and gets a very large number (whatever the maximum is, assume 8^4). So it then writes large amounts of YOUR data to memory even when only 0..3 bytes are allocated (or it is smart and will only do 4). So now you have YOUR own code/data in memory that isn't for that file.

      I think. Fuck if I really know.

      -Eyston

    5. Re:After reading the articles... by smashr · · Score: 5, Informative


      It's too bad they probably won't get the 100k. In order to get the files onto the xbox, you need to use a prior exploit that DOES require something(007 save, swapping HDD etc)

      Not at all. You do not need to make any modifications to the hardware to use the 007 hack. If you have a memory card with the savegame on it, then you can simply copy that to the HD and load the game. This boots linux with an ftp server. You do NOT need to open the box or solder the pins; you only need to do that if you want to flash the TSOP and effectively mod the bios. Once you use the 007 trick you have temporary ftp access to the box - you can ftp over and replace the font files. Now the box is as good as modded and no one will know the difference. In addition this is safer than flashing the TSOP because the BIOS is simply intercepted in hardware.

      So in short - you can have a completley modded xbox without ever opening the cover.

    6. Re:After reading the articles... by Kaeru+the+Frog · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Because it could be used to circumvent copyright. Of couse anything could be used to circumvent copyright protection. That's only one of the reasons why the DMCA is a bad law and every time a case concerning it appears in court I hope it is the one that kills the DMCA.

    7. Re:After reading the articles... by BiggerIsBetter · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "You should never challenge a powerful company like this."

      Nope. I gotta disagree with that.

      I for one do NOT believe "powerful" aka rich companies shoudn't be challenged. Having money should not mean carte-blanch authority to steamroll customers over trivialities and the greater business community should be wary of any organisation that grows unchecked. It may be difficult (especially if the court is swayed by financial contributions) but powerful companies should ALWAYS be challenged.

      --
      Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
    8. Re:After reading the articles... by sheimers · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Who cares about the DMCA. Most of the six billion world population lives outside the USA.

    9. Re:After reading the articles... by s0meguy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The DMCA? Last time I checked American law wasn't a global thing.

    10. Re:After reading the articles... by wiggles · · Score: 5, Informative

      Also from the DMCA:

      (f) Reverse Engineering. -

      (1)

      Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title.

    11. Re:After reading the articles... by fucksl4shd0t · · Score: 4, Funny

      Can't pass this one up. Emphasis mine.

      I would have been interested in your opinion, but your spelling error made you sound like an out of control and destructive teenager. Okay, maybe one error means you could be in your twenties, posibly with some slight degree of control, but the destructive tendencies are undeniable. Could you submit a longer writing sample for analysis?

      Enough said.

      --
      Like what I said? You might like my music
    12. Re:After reading the articles... by evilviper · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's very simple... According to the DMCA, you point at something and call it "copyright protection", and if anybody does anything to it, you sue them to holy hell.

      Quite simple really.

      For instance, if I was to make a CD that doesn't play, I will call it copy protected, meaning it works (because I say so) and you don't get your money back. Then, when someone figures out how to make it work, I sue them into submission.

      It has other purposes as well. For instance, it can be very useful in extorting money, and bending people to your will.
      You see, what you do is invent a copy protection scheme (we'll call it CSSS) and make it standard on some multimedia format (that we'll call DVDDs). Unfortunately, no copy protected device has ever gotten popular, so to make sure yours gets popular, you make CSSS so crappy that a 5-year old could break it. Now, your DVDD format will get popular, because people can all copy the DVDD discs.

      Then, when anyone want's to make a DVDD player, they can't, unless they get permission to use CSSS from you. Before you allow them to use CSSS, you simply require a huge ammount of money, and force them to sign a contract saying they will do everything you tell them to, and include nothing extra on their CSSS players that you don't like.

      Now, you are raking in the money, and you control the entire DVDDs player market, because the DMCA doesn't allow anyone to get around your crappy CSSS without your permission.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    13. Re:After reading the articles... by More+Karma+Than+God · · Score: 4, Funny

      > The DMCA? Last time I checked American law wasn't a global thing.

      We're working on fixing that.

      --
      Go here to create your own Slashdot dis
    14. Re:After reading the articles... by staticdragon · · Score: 5, Funny

      reread the article.
      Austria != Australia
      One is in Europe the others somwhere way the hell on the other side of the globe.
      One has kangaroos, the other has... what the hell does Austria have, except apparently good hackers?

    15. Re:After reading the articles... by BESTouff · · Score: 4, Funny
      Having money should not mean carte-blanch authority

      You're not from the US, are you ?

    16. Re:After reading the articles... by darien · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually, the EU seems to be heading in the opposite direction - while the US passes laws that make it easier for companies to get rich off individuals, the EU keeps issuing "statutory instruments" that make it progressively harder for businesses to enforce anything at all. And even if you are convicted of some sort of made up IP crime, you can always take the matter to the European Court of Human Rights, which pretty much always finds for the individual, because the EU Convention on Human Rights is a very broad and generous document.

    17. Re:After reading the articles... by KAMiKAZOW · · Score: 5, Informative

      Sadly this is not funny, it's true. There's the new Copyright Directive in the European Union and the USA is ''exporting'' the DMCA to other countries like Singapore.

  3. Watch out for the secret weapon. by Roosey · · Score: 5, Funny

    Trust me, these guys will go down for the count if Microsoft hires a female lawyer.

  4. Mr. Bush Announces .... by Snoopy77 · · Score: 5, Funny

    "From now on today will be known as XBox Independence Day!"

    --
    "She's a West Texas girl, just like me" - G.W Bush Iraqis
  5. What the.. ? by rampant+mac · · Score: 5, Funny
    From the article:

    Dear Public,

    Today is a very said day for Microsoft.

    Especially if you're using their spelling / grammar software.

    --
    I like big butts and I cannot lie.
  6. honestly... by mrscorpio · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...did they really think Microsoft would give in to their "demands" AND legitimize X-Box hacking at the same time? Give me a break. Why would it make sense for Microsoft to encourage Linux installs on a product solely meant to play games and movies, when it doesn't even port it's cash cow software for the real desktop OS? I hate to make this comparison (because of the can of worms it's sure to open), but it's like terrorists who try to bargain hostages for freeing their buddies. You CAN'T bargain with them, because it simply encourages others to follow in their path.

    Congrats to the guys for the hard hacking work, but get a little business sense and in the meantime, better get a lawyer. This ain't gonna make the boyz in Redmond none too happy.

    Chris

    1. Re:honestly... by grahammm · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why should a hardware supplier have the right to dictate what the hardware is used for? There have been many instances of things being put to uses which the manufacturer did not even imagine when the product was first released, and sometimes these uses have become more popular than the original purpose of the item - and have increased sales of the item.

      This is NOT the same as gaining access to / duplicating copyright works.

    2. Re:honestly... by mrscorpio · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You realize how little market share Linux has, right?

      A significant number (to Microsoft) of people are not going to rush out and buy X-Boxes to install Linux on it. Maybe a few thousand worldwide, MAYBE. That's not going to put them over the top against Sony.

      Chris

    3. Re:honestly... by CrowScape · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But the idea isn't to make money off of selling the hardware, it's to make money off of selling the software. By hacking the X-Box so that you can run software that Microsoft isn't getting a royalty on kinda defeats the purpose. As consoles become more and more expensive to manufacture you'll see more emphasis placed on the profits produced by games while the manufacturers become willing to almost give the thing they spent $200 building away. This kind of hacking, if it ever begins to saturate the market, only serves to undermine consoles in general.

      --
      common sense: noun
      What those who are ignorant of the subject matter think; usually wrong.
    4. Re:honestly... by sweatyboatman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      and the argument is that this is a flawed business model. purchasing the XBOX should allow me to run whatever I want on it. I'm not leasing it. It's my property. I don't own the software or firmware, but I definately do own the hardware.

      If I can make the firmware do what I want, then how could that be illegal? Once I pay for it, MS no longer has a say in how I use it.

      If I hollow out the case and use it as a planter, is that an illegal modification? Can Microsoft sue me because they're not making their royalty money on the plants I'm growing in my XBOX?

      --
      It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
    5. Re:honestly... by Zork+the+Almighty · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I've never seen this licence you keep referring to. Software is sold under licence, since otherwise you could run multiple copies of the program (note : this has nothing to do with distributing the program to others, which would be copyright infringement). I can't think of any physical goods offhand that come with a licence. I think you get to "own" them.

      --

      In Soviet America the banks rob you!
    6. Re:honestly... by rpresser · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The hardware is mine . There was no license governing my use of the hardware. There was, instead, a license governing the use of the software associated with that hardware.

      Suppose I decided that I really, really liked using Xboxes as boat anchors. Is it your belief that such use would be against some license and that I would be technically in violation of it? Wrongo.

    7. Re:honestly... by dekashizl · · Score: 4, Funny
      If I hollow out the case and use it as a planter, is that an illegal modification? Can Microsoft sue me because they're not making their royalty money on the plants I'm growing in my XBOX?
      Dude... What kind of plants are you growing in there?
    8. Re:honestly... by Avakado · · Score: 4, Informative

      In many countries, and I believe in USA too, you don't have to accept a license you haven't signed. If you don't sign the license, you only have the rights copyright provides you, which for closed source software for home use usually is better than what the license provides you. These rights includes installing the software on every computer in your home, but not every one in your company. This means you're "owning" your copy of the product. I attended the trial against Jon Johansen (co-author and distributor of DeCSS), where he explained they had used an uncompression program rather than the installation program to install the Xing DVD tool, in order to avoid accepting the click-through license. The prosecutor accepted this reasoning. The defender later stated that restrictions printed on the outside of DVD covers were invalid as long as the buyer didn't sign an agreement in the store. This was also undisputed by the prosecutor.

      --
      The world will end in 5 minutes. Please log out.
  7. And the floodgates open.. by freeweed · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Looks like it's open season on the Xbox now, but I'm a bit confused. The ZDnet article mentions the $100,000 no hardware mod prize, yet right in the exploit description it states:

    Q1: How do I get the files onto the harddisk?

    A1: There are several ways. You could f.e. install the files with the Mechassault or 007 hacks. This requires one of the games and the files on a memorycard. The other way is to open the box and do the harddisk swap trick which is described all over the net.

    So if you need to use an existing hack to do this, and those hacks didn't qualify for the prize, how could this one? Any Xbox experts care to comment?

    Additionally, isn't it nice to see that companies are now suing on a regular basis for exploit publication. Good that they only want black hats posessing this sort of information.

    --
    Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
  8. Blackmail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    our team has been accused of attempting to extort or blackmail Microsoft

    From the article, seems that is exactly what they tried to do:

    For the exchange, we were requesting but not demanding the following:

    - Complete access to all documentation (chipsets, video etc.) to assist in developing a better Linux for the XBox.
    - A signed Linux loader.
    - Protection from Microsoft or support if any organisation/government attempted to prosecute members of our team.
    - Refunding of the cost occured during the agreement period.

    Not demanding? Why would Microsoft politely offer any of those things?

    1. Re:Blackmail by BurritoWarrior · · Score: 5, Funny

      I like how the Free-X (box) team thinks. Let me try this out:

      I am requesting that my post be moderated up to +5 or I will release pictures of Slashdot moderators in compromising positions with various farm animals.

      Please note this is just a request, not a demand.

    2. Re:Blackmail by WanChan · · Score: 5, Funny

      ...well, it's at +4 now, so somebody has something to hide :)

  9. Too Late for Microsoft by aerojad · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Microsoft is already threatening them with legal action.

    Too late. Just ask AOL at trying to stop WASTE when it came out. Up for a day, and mirrored more times then they will ever be able to count.

    Microsoft lost right at the point they decided to not talk to them beforehand. They can shut these people down, but it's out there now, game over.

    --

    SecondPageMedia - Wha
  10. Increasing weirdness by warmcat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    From the 'statement' link:

    Since our attempts to contact Microsoft have become public knowledge our team has been accused of attempting to extort or blackmail Microsoft, this is not true as we have made every attempt possible to make contact with Microsoft to offer the following:

    - A complete summary of all hacking technologies (many of these technologies have not been released).
    - Source Codes.
    - All attacks which have been developed but not yet released.
    - To sign a Non-disclosure Agreement regarding our discoveries.
    - Further research on exploits, which would be exclusive to Microsoft.
    - Full names of all hackers involved upon agreement of legal protection from Microsoft.
    - Assistance in the development of future security for the XBox by working with Microsoft.

    For the exchange, we were requesting but not demanding the following:

    - Complete access to all documentation (chipsets, video etc.) to assist in developing a better Linux for the XBox.
    - A signed Linux loader.
    - Protection from Microsoft or support if any organisation/government attempted to prosecute members of our team.
    - Refunding of the cost occured during the agreement period.

    Disclaimer, until a few weeks ago I was very active in Xbox Linux.

    This just seems to me to be a cheap attempt to chisel money and personal advantage under the cover of pretending to be doing it for the benefit of Xbox Linux. "Assistance in the development of future security for the XBox by working with Microsoft" indeed!!!!

    Anyone who has spent any time with the Xbox Linux project will immediately recognize the author of the "statement" by its novel spelling and tone. It'll be interesting to see just how what goes around is going to come around.

  11. Re:what a "habibi exploit"? by Michael+Hunt · · Score: 5, Informative

    007 Agent Under Fire contains an exploit in the save-game loading routine which can lead to a local-root compromise on your X-box with a specially corrupted save game file.

    This can be used, for example, to boot Linux, or flash the BIOS.

    The reason that this didn't win Mike Robertson's 100 large is because you still need to rip the lid off the box and solder a pair of jumpers (or use conductive pen) in order to enable 'write' on the flash rom.

    --
    You're doing it wrong.
  12. Re:Just wondering... by randyest · · Score: 5, Informative

    It's a base-64 encoded proof-of-concept font and loader program. Base-64 is sort of like uuencode -- it's just a reversible way to represent a binary file as ascii code. The line "begin-base64 644 dayX.tgz" is the header that includes the encoded filename (dayX.tgz). Ask google about it for more info. Google knows all.

    --
    everything in moderation
  13. Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by jeffkjo1 · · Score: 5, Funny

    There's definitely a big risk of zdnet going down, as it's hosted by a 14 year old with a 333 running Apache in console mode (Win98sr2) on a dsl connection and all...

  14. Integer Underflow: by Kelmenson · · Score: 5, Informative
    You understand overflow, right? There is a maximum integer that can be stored in a variable, and if you "overflow" this maximum amount, the number wraps around. So 0xffff + 0x0003 = 0x0002.

    Underflow is the same, but opposite, making it so you wrap from near zero to a very big number... You say the font size is 0x0003, and the X-Box subtracts 0x0004, and ends up thinking it needs to read in 0xffff more data from the font file...

    Both just involved wrapping around the maximum/minimum values a variable can hold.

  15. Looks like they weren't bluffing by gibbo2 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A popular opinion when they threatened to release this was "they're just blackmailing Microsoft, but they've got nothing".

    Looks like a different situation now that they've laid their cards on the table.

    Good work guys.

  16. Re:Same as this exploit? by Daetrin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think you meant http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vulnwatch/2 003-q3/0008.html (ie without the extraneous space) but yeah, given that they're 100% identical to each other, including the name of the author, i'm guessing that they just _might_ be the same exploit.

    --
    This Space Intentionally Left Blank
  17. Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by Angry+Pixie · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Actually, it is blackmail. Several of the things they request do have a quantifiable monetary value to them, and to others in similar situations. This includes the creation of an authorized product, refund of costs incurred, legal indemnification, and access to product designs and specs. It doesn't matter if they're willing to sign an NDA. Blackmail isn't limited to just the "give me X dollars or I will do something nasty you won't like." Any argument that Microsoft won't be harmed financially due to the release of this exploit is weak because Microsoft doesn't have to show actual financial damages from this. But that's just the civil suit. These guys will have more to worry about from the Justice Department in the criminal case.

    This is not a step forward for the Linux community. It is an embarassing set back that could further strengthen arguments against using Linux and supporting the Linux community. It's just damn irresponsible of them.

  18. Its now linuXBox !! by supersam · · Score: 4, Funny

    MS: Damn it! Doesn't Free-X know we made XBox so that people could play games on it.

    Free-X: Err... yes we did just that. We played on it a bit and voila!... its now linuXBox!! *grin*

    MS: @#!**@###***

  19. Microsoft Dumping X-Box by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The only reason Microsoft has to care about putting another operating system on x-box is because they are dumping them.

    Dumping things undervalue as a monopoly is unethical and illegal in many places. I'd like to see that in some news stories, instead of no explanation why microsoft would care at all what someone did with their own bought hardware.

  20. Please stop trying to use common sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    This is the law were talking about here. There is no room for such concepts..

  21. Download this while you can. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative
    Select and copy the uuencoded bit of the message in your browser, then pop open an xterm.
    $ uudecode
    (shift-insert or third mouse button)
    (return)
    ^D
    This will give you dayX.tgz

    You don't know when someone will laywer their way into taking this thing offline. Make it as available as you can.
    1. Re:Download this while you can. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's not uuencoded, it's base64. But the uudecode tool will still know how to decode it.

  22. how Bill could force a "fix" down your throat by frovingslosh · · Score: 4, Interesting

    They could force a fix a number of ways, including if you ever "go live" and connect to them on the internet, but they could also make all future games include a dashboard "update" that would install itself whenever the game is run. So as long as you only run Linux (and they don't sneak anything in through Linux software with a trojan), you might be safe, but if you or anyone else ever plays a game on the x-box that was manufacturered after this date, they could get you.

    --
    I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
  23. Re:I think this will make Xboxen much more popular by mikeophile · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Q4: Is it possible to play "backed-up" games with this?

    A4: Yes it is possible to play pirated games by using this vulnerability but my proof of concept code will not allow this. You have to change the exploit to patch the kernel in memory. This is not very hard and I am not going to help you with this.

    It seems that eventually the modded exploit will become available as well. So you'll have Linux plus the ability to play Xbox titles.

    As far as cheaters go, yes they suck.

    Wouldn't you rather be able to run your own Xbox Live server though?

    For free?

  24. No DMCA in Austria by janolder · · Score: 5, Informative
    Fortunately, the DMCA has no teeth in Austria where these guys seem to live. Note the reference to a Mr Kritsch working for MS Austria and the somewhat awkward choice of words, mediocre grammar and poor spelling.

    If the DMCA continues to be used to shut down what used to be considered fair use, we'll see more and more open source endeavors moving out of the US. Here's to fervently hoping the MPAA/RIAA doesn't manage to implement DMCA clones in all countries on this planet. They seem to be doing a pretty good job at it in Europe.

    1. Re:No DMCA in Austria by breon.halling · · Score: 5, Funny
      ... the somewhat awkward choice of words, mediocre grammar and poor spelling.

      So you're saying they post on Slashdot? ;)

      --
      "Yeah, well, Dracula called and he's coming over tonight for you and I said okay."
    2. Re:No DMCA in Austria by infolib · · Score: 5, Insightful

      the DMCA has no teeth in Austria where these guys seem to live

      The european version of the DMCA, the EUCD came into force in Austria on July 1st. (I even think the directive could be used against them before that, though it hasn't been transcribed into austrian law). The mailing list message was sent on July 4th. (quite symbolically...)

      On the other hand, the picture's pretty murky anyway. The EUCD doesn't change the status for computer programs, and that's what we're really talking about here. It's also important that this exploit has several effects. It may be used for playing pirated games, (nono) but it is also a tool for using the X-box for quite legitimate purposes, like building a home media system etc. Also, the exploit is not done on the programs themselves, but on the platform. Then there is the issue of changing the font files. I don't quite get whether they used changed MS font files or rolled their own. If they use changed MS files, MS might be able to go after them on their "artistic rights".

      I recommend finding an austrian lawyer. (And a sympathetic judge...)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced libertarian utopia is indistinguishable from government.
  25. Opera gives blacked-out page by Empiric · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If any of you Opera users find the "Free-X Statement" link akin to a Spinal Tap album cover, the site hasn't been defaced or removed. Try another browser, Opera 7.0 appears not to render their page readably. Undoubtedly the site's fault, not Opera's, of course.

    (me.)

    --
    ~ Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?
  26. Lindows on Xbox by HanzoSan · · Score: 5, Funny



    In a few days Michael Robertson will announce Lindows Xbox Edition.

    New features? The ability to completely hiijack a competitors hardware technology.

    --
    If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
    1. Re:Lindows on Xbox by Rogerborg · · Score: 5, Insightful

      >The ability to completely hiijack a competitors hardware technology.

      Funny, I don't recall leasing an XBox from Microsoft. When I put that money down, as far as I'm aware, I bought it. It became my property.

      I wonder, what goods or services am I stealing from Microsoft by running lunix on my XBox?

      Their attitude seems to be that after you buy an XBox, you owe them more money in games sales.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    2. Re:Lindows on Xbox by Grishnakh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When did anyone ever agree not to tamper with the Xbox? This is a hardware product, not licensed software. You buy it, you own it. After you've paid for it, there are no legal restrictions on what you can do with it--smash it, put it in a closet and never use it, run Linux on it, etc.

      Are you an MS employee? Your post is so full of blatant lies I don't see any other possibility.

  27. Dude, they're in AUSTRIA ..Where the hell is that? by Viewsonic · · Score: 5, Funny

    And that's exactly what the Microsoft chimps are thinking right now. How the hell are they going to be able to sue someone if they dont even know where the hell it is? I mean, come on, who REALLY knows where Austria is that hasn't been there already? (Looks around) My point exactly. Hell, half the posters on here think its AUSTRAILIA.

  28. Thoughts by knightPhlight · · Score: 5, Interesting
    New or old hat? :: This exploit, having been long awaited by linux hackers and warez kiddies both is different from both the 007 and MechWarrior hacks. It doesn't require the retail games making the hack free as in beer. Additionally, both require that the game is executed and a save is loaded to cause the overrun. To do this the disc must be in the DVD drive. Because the Xbox (without a third party BIOS) will reboot when the eject key is pressed, this severely limits what the DVD can contain (such as a bootable linux partition).

    Patchable? :: Furthermore, Microsoft cannot permanently patch this hack through an Xbox Live update. Version 1, v1.2, & v1.3 Xboxes will always execute the current vulnerable code. Should they remotely update the dash; one would simply open the Xbox, write an old image to the hard drive, and reboot. In the process it would be trivial to add bert and ernie (the modified fonts). Xbox Live BIOS updates are not possible due to M$ imposed hardware limitations. Of course, third party BIOS updates are not a problem for those willing to open the case and get crazy with a little solder.

    Availability? :: Legal or not, at this point it's not an issue for the end user. The base-64 posted by Mr. Esser isn't going away. Proof? Try this...

    X-Prize? :: Probably not. This cannot be executed or copied from a third party memory card ala 007. So opening the box is required. Partial payment maybe.

  29. in case MS makes /. remove this by cyborch · · Score: 4, Informative

    As seen before microsoft does not like people who publish exploits. So I have made an off-US mirror in a country where releasing exploits to the public is still legal...

  30. Well, the damage is done.. by NanoGator · · Score: 5, Interesting

    .. I would *strongly* recommend that the Slashdot Community who's been all over this 'Linux on the XBOX' bs start doing something interesting with it, and I mean fast. It would look plenty embarrasing for MS if they went after them for releasing the exploit and then people started making good (and legitimate) use of it. If everybody just wants to play MAME on it with questionably legal ROMs, that won't help Free-X.

    Might I suggest a DivX based media server that can rip DVDs? I know that seems to fly in the face of what I just said about MAME, however, its a good use for the XBOX, plus you'd only be ripping DVDs you own and with good reason. "I just wanted to have easy access to my library." Another suggestion would be to set up an XBOX as a TV based info center. It stays on-line all the time on Input 2 (or whatever channel your XBOX is on), when a commercial pops up, flip the channels and get your messages. Heck, set up a browser so that it cycles through your favorite news sites every 30 seconds and scrolls them or something.

    At least with something like that, something that the XBOX is better at than a cheap-o PC, the case can be made for wanting to make these mods to the unit. That'll weaken MS's case (they'll probably try to say that copy protection is bypassed or something), plus it'll take a few pokes at the DMCA as well.

    I hope are people listening. MS has got an army of lawyers.

    --
    "Derp de derp."
    1. Re:Well, the damage is done.. by Zork+the+Almighty · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Those are some good suggestions. Here's my (ordered) list of Xbox Linux Killer Apps :
      Tivo / media server
      MAME/Console emulator
      Region Free DVD player
      highly portable internet game server
      video phone (with a USB camera and broadband)
      digital camera / MP3 player software (so you don't need a PC)

      --

      In Soviet America the banks rob you!
  31. Bush: We will not bend to these terrorist demands. by CaptCanuk · · Score: 4, Interesting

    These poor guys will be the next to be blown up when 120,000 troops jump them on their way to work. Seriously though, reading their demands, they are very close to blackmail. Microsoft took the same position that the US took in "Air Force One": We will not bargain with terrorists. Sure, they didn't blow anything up or there isn't some ISO you can burn and stick in the XBOX and poof, no security, but they did hold a list of demands that most corporations would have a hard time filling. Video Game Console manufacturers make money on software game title sells (as opposed to losing money on hardware).

    "For the exchange, we were requesting but not demanding the following:
    - Complete access to all documentation (chipsets, video etc.) to assist in developing a better Linux for the XBox.
    - A signed Linux loader.
    - Protection from Microsoft or support if any organisation/government attempted to prosecute members of our team.
    - Refunding of the cost occured during the agreement period."

    Since they requested the following, they were turned down on all accounts. I sincerely hope their lawyers are good enough to stave off microsoft's (who will be working on july 4th all day i'm sure). I also hope this is a first step to sticking in and loading a bootable Suse or Mandrake install CD.

    --
    ---- The geek shall inherit the Earth.
  32. Re:I don't understand by aziraphale · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's one thing to phone up MS and say 'I've found out something you might like to know about and keep secret', and another to phone up and say 'I've got some information you might like to know about and keep secret - and I'd like you to pay me money, indemnify me against legal consequences, and give me a job - or I'll release it to the public'.

    The fact that when they were ignored, they carried out the implicit threat of releasing the information (implicit in their suggestion that they'd sign an NDA in exchange for money), makes it look like blackmail to me.

    It's the demand for personal gain that makes the threat of disclosure into blackmail.

  33. Re:Typical by mausmalone · · Score: 4, Interesting

    even though I have no stake in this, I've gotta admit that I'm really disappointed in these guys. Normally, they'd only have to worry about the DMCA. Hacking an unshared system you own is not a crime in any way. Telling people about your experiences isn't either. The only concern is that this technology can circumvent systems designed to enforce copyrights, thereby making it a violation of the DMCA. It does have significant legal uses, and is only presented in such a manner.

    Then they go and do this whole threaten/blackmail/extortion thing... doesn't really paint them in a good light. They'd be able to really champion this cause, if they didn't have to go and act like a bunch of script kiddies. Getting Linux on the X-Box without any hardware hacks is an amazing accomplishment, worthy praise and acknowledgement. Unfortunately, anyone who reports on this is gonna focus on the offensive stance they took and paint them as menaces.

    And before I complain about them having egos anymore, I should digress and say that if I was good enough to hack an x-box with just software, I'd be pretty self-assured, too.

    --
    -=-=-=-=-=
    I'd rather be flamed than ignored.
  34. Too easy... by borgdows · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's time now to hack a *real* protection system made by a *real* console maker -> Nintendo Gamecube.

    good luck everybody! (and you'll need it)

  35. Re:what a "habibi exploit"? by rpresser · · Score: 4, Informative
    1. You don't need to flash the rom to use the habibi 007 exploit. You can use the savegame, plus a USB memory card, plus a USB-to-xbox cable, to run linux on your xbox whenever you like. You have to boot 007 first in order to load linux, but that's merely an annoyance.
    2. Once you're in linux, IF you've soldered the motherboard, you can use a utility to flash the ROM. This is logically equivalent to installing a mod chip and flashing that; it just requires one less piece of hardware.
    3. The new hack's purpose is to have linux load instead of the dashboard when the xbox starts up, thus removing 007 from the step. Logically, however, we're still using a hack as a linux bootloader; the difference being that the dashboard itself loads the hack, rather than the 007 game.
    4. The 007 hack is one of a few possible springboards to implement the new hack; it happens to be one that does not require opening the case.
    5. Footnote: there is actually another game besides 007 Agent Under Fire -- MechAssault -- which has a similar vulnerability. So you have a choice of 3 linux bootloaders.
  36. Re:Woops, too late? This is what MS wants.... by CaptnMArk · · Score: 5, Interesting

    People, just buy an mini-itx system. It's much more open, hackable and flexible.

  37. Very first line pretty much sums it up... by NoCashValue · · Score: 4, Funny

    "Today is a very said day for Microsoft."

    If they can't even spell correctly in the opening sentence of their world-shaking statement, how the hell are people supposed to take them seriously?

    Bah.

  38. "You should never challenge a powerful company..." by cliveholloway · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Right, you mean like these two did?

    Terrible waste of time, eh?

    .02

    cLive ;-)

    --
    -- Trinity in high heels carrying a whip: The donimatrix - there is no spoonerism
  39. INTEGER UNDERFLOW for dummies by Alsee · · Score: 4, Informative

    integer underflow..?

    Here's a completely non-technical explanation:

    Think of it like a clock. The XBOX loads a number expecting it to be something like 10 minutes. It then subtracts 5 minutes and uses the number. But instead of giving it a number like 10 minutes you give it a number like 2 minutes. Then when the XBOX subtracts 5 from 2 it gets an underflow. It doesn't know about negative numbers. So what is does is it wraps around like a clock. If you look at the 2 minute mark on a clock, then count backwards 5 minutes where do you end up? You end up 3 minuts before the 12. That's 11 hours and 57 minutes. So XBOX thinks that 2 minus 5 equals 11 hours and 57 minutes.

    So by giving the XBOX a smaller number than it expects, and letting the XBOX make the number even smaller, it underflows - wraps around - to a really big number. That really big number tells the XBOX to load a HUGE amount of information. More than it's supposed to load. That means you can feed the XBOX any program you want and the XBOX will suck it up and run it.

    -

    --
    - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  40. Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by Alsee · · Score: 5, Interesting

    how can such exploit be legal? If your door lock is easy to tamper with, is it implicitly legal for me to break in?

    It is perfectly legal for you to "tamper" and "break in" if it's a lock on YOUR OWN DOOR. It doesn't matter if Microsoft built the lock, you bought the house.

    The people using the exploit are using in on a machine THEY OWN. They can do anything they like with it. They can smash it with a sledgehammer or toss it in a blast furnace and vaporize the sucker. Of COURSE they can "pick the lock".

    -

    --
    - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  41. linux on xbox? by x0n · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Anyone arguing that allowing Linux on an XBox is going to sell more Xboxen is clearly deluded. The only reason people want to put Linux on an XBox (or any other device that is not sold for such purposes) is for reasons of pure hacker fun (weee, look! linux on xbox! take that m$) and also because we all feel we're poking billg in the eye at the same time. Admit it. I do.

    - Oisin

    --

    PGP KeyId: 0x08D63965
  42. Re:Why don't they fix the exploit? by Alsee · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Actually, they update the dashboard (what the exploit plays with) when you install the Xbox Live stuff

    Any attempt to update the XBOX is merely a request from an outside source for the XBOX to update itself. But once you have control of the XBOX you can program it to ignore that request to update itself.

    When you connect to XBOX Live they check to see what version you are running, but all they can find out is what the XBOX tells them. If you control the XBOX you can have it tell them anything you like.

    They are going to run into the exact same problem with Palladium and TCPA. Once someone digs the key out of the hardware, or finds any other vulnerability, then they own their system. They can run an undetectable virtualized system. They'll have "god mode" over it and af far as the rest of the world can tell they are running a secure and "trusted" system. Hell, the security situation could wind up being worse because they are pretty much going to force you to "trust" other people running the system. It just means you're going to get screwed over worse when a computer you were forced to "trust" isn't in fact secure.

    -

    --
    - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  43. Sounds typical by The+Master+Control+P · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Reminds me strongly of the way typical bug-in-your-code exchanges go with companies:

    "There's a flaw in your code."
    "There's no flaw in our code."
    "I'm telling people there's a flaw in your code."
    "Alright, there is a flaw, but we're not fixing it."
    "I'm telling people how to exploit this flaw in your code."
    "Ok! Ok, we'll fix the bug."

    These guys have been telling Microsoft that they can run Linux on an Xbox without a mod chip for months. Microsoft has ignored their warnings about the "flaw" in their "code," so we've now arrived at "I'm telling people how to exploit it." Unfortunately, because the majority of people on capital hill are mildly retarded and/or (emphasis on the "and") corporate bitches, Microsoft will NOT be forced to fix the error, but will simply sue the people who publicize the flaw because it involves encryption.

    For those to whom it is NOT already patently obvious, THIS is the danger of the DMCA: Companies that provide defective products involving encryption are NOT forced to repair the error or lose business, they now have the option of silencing the white-hats who try to warn them, and trying to ignore the hordes of black-hats who are now working to duplicate the exploit.

    Naturally, when involving open-source software, the DMCA becomes irrelevant, because anyone can see and fix the code: We do not have to wait in the hallowed corporate halls waiting for a magic trinket, and that is what they (in reference to greedy CEO's and their ilk, for whom the pursuit of money has become a late-stage cancer) fear.

    Ok, I am done rambling. You may now resume your regularly scheduled indoctrination.

  44. Re:I don't understand by NewtonsLaw · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's not necessarily blackmail.

    For example, I uncovered a very significant security flaw in the online banking system of a local bank.

    It took me some time to determine the scope, cause and effect of the problem -- and my time is money.

    I then contacted the bank I advised them that they had a problem which, if not fixed, would almost certainly be picked up by others -- some of who might not be so benign.

    I offered to hand over the results of all my work in return for payment for the time I'd spent (at my normal hourly rate).

    They agreed and were most satisfied with the transaction -- since it most likely saved them a small (or large) fortune.

    Was I blackmailing the bank?

    After all, I wasn't about to hand over the results of my investigation without payment.

    No, of course it wasn't blackmail. It was just the same as a plumber saying "I won't fix your toilet unless you pay me."

    Of course there was no "threat" involved in my offer -- although if they'd chosen not to pay and fix the problem I may have informed the media that there was *a* problem (customers surely had a right to know if it wasn't going to be fixed)

    In the Xbox case, Microsoft were offered a business transaction. The price would have been a signed version of Linux for the Xbox in return for the chance to close off the vulnerability and delay public awareness that it existed.

    Clearly Microsoft decided that the price was too high -- after all, they've got to pay that building full of lawyers whether they're actually suing people or not so why not just resort to legal action instead?

  45. Statement from Bill Gates... by JFMulder · · Score: 4, Funny

    "640k underflow should be enough to hack an Xbox."

  46. Summary of MS's attitude by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You only leased that XBox. It still belongs to us, in principle, if not (yet) legally in fact because we chose to sell it at a loss. You're not allowed to do anything to it that we don't want you to, nor to tell anyone how to do anything to such things. Ever. Running Linux on it is stealing from us. You owe us more money in games sales, you thief.

    Next week: Gilette to sue people who buy one of their razors and then figure out or tell anyone how to remove and resharpen the blades rather than buying more.

    Next month: Coca Cola Enterprises Ltd to sue people who buy a bottle of Dr Pepper, drink it, then use it to fetch water from the office water cooler. Damn, that's me busted.

    Let's face it, we're only valued customers as long as we're meeting our implicit obligation to continue consuming. The instant we try and (ab/re)use a product without paying more money to the manufacturer, we bcome heartless thieves, possibly communists, maybe even terrorists.

    Linux user, why do you hate America so much?

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  47. "not negotiating with terrorists" by Imperator · · Score: 4, Informative

    That's a lie they love to tell. The US negotiates with terrorists all the time. Right now the Bush administration is engaged in intensive negotiations with several Palestinian terrorist groups. (And I'm not calling them terrorists because it's the US-Israeli line, but rather because they detonate bombs in places crowded with civilians.) We negotiate hostage exchanges, "disarmament" (cease fire) agreements, and much more. It all depends on how much we want the terrorists to cooperate. The US (and most other countries) have never had serious policies against negotiating with terrorists, no matter what their propaganda campaigns would like you to believe.

    --

    Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.
  48. And we are not suprised by cluge · · Score: 4, Insightful


    If current copyright and IP laws and the interretation thereof were in affect in the mid - 80's what could we expect?

    1. PC's would still cost thousands of dollars

    2. The only companies to produce BIOS codes would be IBM, and people that paid IBM royalties

    3. The Internet would only be available to people in colleges and government - and the content would be heavily censored

    4. The only PC manufacture would be IBM and all others would be "illegal copies".

    5. All operating systems that ran on PC's would have to be liscenced from Microsoft

    6. 20" Rims would have to be liscenced from GM as the own the IP for "the oversized sport tire package"

    7. Performance exhaust systems are a Ford product exclusively.

    8. CD-R's would have been outlawed and require a liscence to buy or own

    9. There would only be 1 word processing program

    10."Reverse Engineering" would be a legal term used at your prosecution.

    You think it's crazy? Saying that you can buy a game/toy and are not allowed to open it up under penalty of jail - THAT is crazy. Why doesn't MS tell the truth, you didn't BUY anything except the right to use your toy. In actuality, according to their liscence (or my interpretation) that box that you plunked down 200 bucks for isn't even yours. Get used to it, unless there is a revolt, it is the way of the future. You will own nothing - but you will be allowed to use things, provided you pay enough $$$.

    --
    "Science is about ego as much as it is about discovery and truth " - I said it, so sue me.
    1. Re:And we are not suprised by dafoomie · · Score: 4, Interesting

      2. The only companies to produce BIOS codes would be IBM, and people that paid IBM royalties

      Compaq secretly agreed to pay IBM royalties on each PC they sold, so IBM would drop the suit. The agreement's existance was a secret until recently.

      8. CD-R's would have been outlawed and require a liscence to buy or own
      Some countries charge a "tax" on each CD-R sold that goes to the RIAA, because that CD "might" be used to pirate their music. I think Canada and Sweden do this, among others. If they get money on each CD-R, that should constitute a licence to fill it with downloaded music. But I think a lot of crazy things.

      5. All operating systems that ran on PC's would have to be liscenced from Microsoft

      Refer to the "Microsoft Tax" on most PC's made by the big companies, no matter what OS is on them.

      You're dead on though... It's scary to see how much of that is actually going on today.

  49. is it really illegal by metallikop · · Score: 4, Insightful
    How illegal is it what the Free-X group is trying to do? Microsoft's Xbox is not much different from a Dell Dimension in most respects. The Xbox is a fully packaged PC with an OS built in. So is a Dell that you buy purchased with WindowsXP.

    Say I don't like WinXP on my Dell. I remove it, repartition and install linux. I can do that because I OWN the box. I'm entitled to do whatever I want with it.

    Now look at the Xbox. The Xbox is a system much like a Dell with windows, the only difference is you can't easily uninstall/repartition... until now. Why is this illegal? I bought my Xbox. I OWN every part of that machine. No where does it say "Property of Microsoft" on my Xbox. Can't I do whatever I want with it? Can't Free-X release any software they want for it, much like 3rd parties can release software of their own? .02

  50. Xbox-Linux Team confirms the exploit by k-hell · · Score: 4, Informative

    See here. ZDnet is also running a story here

  51. Closed Platform as Mixed Blessing by cait56 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    For better or worse, the concept of selling a closed platform is legal. This is especially true if the buyer has adequate information to know that it is a closed platform. I would prefer a mandatory big red WARNING label to be affixed to all closed platforms saying "The retail price of this unit reflects a subsidy from the manufacturer. This subsidy is provided in anticipation of future revenues. Therefore this unit will only work with software lisenced by the manufacturer."

    There are benefits to a closed platform to consumers.

    • It allows a manufacturer who is optimistic to assume the risk that there will be an inadequate supply of software for the platform. If they don't produce their software, they just ate their subsidy.
    • It allows all software to be signed and authenticated. Responsibility for any hardware damage caused by a software installation can be easily assigned to the lisencee who supplied the software.

    The down side is simple. The consumer is being mislead by an artificially low up-front price into being locked into continued payments of a monopoly tax on each piece of software they purchase.

    I believe the only solution is for the FTC to require platform vendors to offer their product in an unbundled format. You can buy an XBOX that will run third party software, but it might cost you $150 more.

    1. Re:Closed Platform as Mixed Blessing by Col.+Klink+(retired) · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, sure, it's legal to *sell* a closed system. However, there is absolutely no legal basis that allow a seller to prevent a consumer from opening it. The most they could do would be to void all warranties if you do anything unapproved.

      If MS can say that you can't open it or run software on it, does that also mean that MS can keep you from reselling it or smashing it with a sledgehammer or just tossing the whole thing in the garbage?

      If someone wants to maintain control of a device after they give it to the consumer, their only choice is to rent it to the consumer and maintain the ownership themselves.

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      -- Don't Tase me, bro!

  52. No right to making a profit. by MikeFM · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Once a machine is sold the seller should have no say in what I do with it. I paid for it afterall. If I want to run Linux on it that's my right. If I throw it in a closet and never use it that's my right also. Either way M$ would lose the same amount of money on the deal.

    It seems to me that this group gave Microsoft a fair offer, to let them run Linux on what they have legally purchased, without having to play dirty. Since Microsoft didn't even try to make a counter offer I guess they shouldn't complain. They probably will use the DMCA to attack this group but IMO that just proves what a shitty bit of law the DMCA is.

    --
    At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
  53. But you DONT own the firmware by nurb432 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    While you do currently ( but not much longer i do forsee ) own what hardweare you buy, any firm/soft-ware that came with the device you only have a license to use.. at their terms.

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    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:But you DONT own the firmware by bahamat · · Score: 5, Insightful

      any firm/soft-ware that came with the device you only have a license to use.. at their terms.

      Fine then, I don't accept the terms of the license. I guess I gotta delete the software. Hmm, now what am I going to do with my XBOX? I know! I'll run Linux on it!