Slashdot Mirror
Gator-style Overlay Ads Are Legal, Says Court
donutz writes "C|Net has the scoop: "A federal court has ruled that pop-up ads for rivals of U-Haul International, placed atop the moving company's own site by a third-party software application, are legal." In this case, it was ad serving company WhenU.com placing the ads, but this decision could have a big impact on the court cases that involve competitor Gator."
Popup ads are still legal.
If I want to install something to replace (or remove!) ads, I should be allowed to. It's my computer. But, it's something the user should have clear and full knowledge of ahead of time. I think Gator, et al, are guilty of not being completely honest with users about what they're up to.
Should people that install Gator (or Gator-clones) on their computer be allowed to drive moving trucks?
Use Python
I think it should be illegal, it's like your glasses modifying the newspaper you read so that (for example) near an article on Linux you see a blatant ad for M$.
-uso.
Dreams, dreams, don't doubt dreams, dreaming children's dreaming dreams. Sailor Moon SS
Watch Fox News and you'll see commercials for CNN ("Tonight on Larry King Live..."). Time Warner sticks on whatever commercials it wants to. I'm sure there are Fox News commercials on CNN ("Tonight on Hannity and Colmes...").
Stupid people make stupid things profitable.
The court's ruling was correct, there isn't much legal backing for the case. It's more of a case that the adware programs are being general iddiots, and companies don't like it. We just need to start getting more people to download AdAware etc so that they can get a rid of these programs.
Or, someone should hack the adware sites so they put an ad over Microsoft's web page. Then Microsoft will hear about it, get pissed, and start bundling some kind of program to get a rid of the AdWare (just hope that it's not DRM).
Makes sense.
I can replace ads with pictures of the countryside or kittens, so why not ads with different ads if I so choose, it's my desktop.
Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
No, because you don't own the billboards.
However, If you buy a magazine, you are perfectly free to paste any other ads over the ads printed in your copy of the magazine. After all, it's your property.
Obviously the court (Judge(s)) have never used a computer on the internet. I know not to accept the certificate blindly, but most people (wrongly) think that to open the web site you need to accept theor certificate.
Yeah.. That's exactly what those terrorists are thinking. Damn I hate the US because of all those pop up ads, especially when I visit www.aljazeera.net and all these damn pop up adds come up for www.usdoj.gov. I think I'll go blow myself up.
Can you say broad generalization?
The rest of the world hates the US because we are the last remaining super power.. and every unpopular kid on the block wants to de-thrown the king.
Because it means that you are allowed to control what is displayed on your own computer.
Here's why this decision is good. If third party software is allowed to replace the ads on a web page, then it is certainly legal for you to remove ads from the web pages you see. This decision strongly protects ad-blocking software, and that's a good thing.
The pop-up ads that bother me the most are the ones that look like Windows dialog boxes. You know - "Warning, your computer is too slow, click here..."
It's not like I've ever fallen for one, nor do I think many other /.ers have (They don't look right on Gnome or KDE).
The problem is that some of the "normal" people on the internet can't tell the difference until its too late. My dad is barely computer literate to open and save an excel file (only excel!). He would fall for one of those immediately
My main concern is that some of these may be used to activate some scripts or something. Once again, those who fell for the boxes probably use Internet Explorer. Need I say more?
Robert Bindler
A Computer Science student's views on technology.
another ad program placed another ad over that ad?
and another...
you get the point, sounds kind of funky to me
paul
Gator can now effectively control a large portion of the web.
Since they can now edit web pages as they see fit (basically), sites don't have to get hacked, and this is all legal.
Why not have gator outright block pages, or slow them down. They can do what they want. This may turn into a bidding war. Your company's website is useless now, because a competitor can take control over it.
Sigh... and, now the Slashdot version:
1. Control Websites
2. ???
3. Profit!!!
-Placing icons on the desktop that launch ad-filled web pages
-Adding itself as a favorite or a home page to the browser
-Adding shortcuts to the Start Menu
All without permission of the user. Granted, those who are security-aware will have unsigned ActiveX and Scripting capabilities turned off (discussion of this can be found here, but then again, the crowd that is more concerned with these types of exploits will use browsers that are harder to exploit and easier to control, such as Mozilla, Opera, or Communicator. Not that these programs are all exempt from exploitation, but they have proven to be a much smaller target audience.
...because everyone knows that you don't actually own your computer; it belongs to marketers as soon as you plug it in the the 'Net.
I am Pepsi. I pay a software company to create software that finds coke cans in movies and alter them to Pepsi cans. No more than an "ad" does. The customer has "control" of his tv. And what appears.
Imagine watching a Nascar race and seeing the "home depot" car with the "Home Depot" logo covered by the "Target" logo via software. I really am not sure what the legal difference between TV and Computer screens would be. My cable company may be the next purveyor of "ads"....
It is one thing if you yourself block ads using your hosts file or some program, but this program did quite the opposite. When you browse the Web, it adds additional advertisements to Web sites you are visiting, and displays ads for competitors. 99.9% of the idiots who install Gator or other software don't read the EULA or even understand that this other software is being installed as well.
Think about it this way. You have a business selling computer parts. Someone goes to your site, and then all of the sudden they get a popup ad going straight to a competitor of yours. This can hamper your ability to make a sale with your customer and impacts you financially. It's a Bad Thing(TM).
It isn't right, and it is unfortunate that the judge ruled this way.
No, but it's legal for you to buy the plot of land next to the billboard and (subject to getting the proper construction permits) build a bigger board of your own in front of their board. Their board is still there unharmed, it just becomes useless because nobody can see it.
No, the judges just got the wrong plantiff in front of them. U-Haul can't sue saying Joe User was tricked into installing software he didn't want, Joe User has to file that case.
If you want news, go to the source.
This is a very interesting debate, due to the fact that it's still pretty unclear as to who owns the content when it reaches your browser.
Let's think about this for a second.
copyright, while the owners of the site can easily claim copyright on any copy, images, etc.. they can't seem to control copyright on the layout of the site by viewing this site. The fact that an ad is on a website doesn't make the layout and presentation a non-copyrighted object. On the other hand, doesn't the fact that the page is thrust into the public domain give everyone the ability to manipulate the content as they see fit?
license, if a site specifically had you enter into an agreement to view the site, and within the agreement you agree not to edit the layout and presentation of said site, then the fact that you installed gator on your system (how dumb) would violate the agreement and put the you in breach of the terms. Much like a physical establishment grants you license to enter their place of business. If you began posting ads in the store, you would be kicked out. Ahh.. but the catch is.. what if you are the only one that can see that ads? Then your not in violation of the license are you?
Very tricky in my opinion, but I opt to go with:
Users should have the right to replace ANYTHING they see while browsing using 3rd party tools, unless they specifically enter into an agreement with the content owners.
The courts worked in this case, much like they worked for Larry Flynt.
the Internet-enabled computer desktop is a competitive medium, where (advertisers) can impact consumer-buying
Gee, and here I was thinking is was my workspace!?!
just goes to show how these guys think eh?
The internet will not remain a commercial piece of crap, as long as Joe Somebody can get a high speed DSL line, and create his own server with website. And, as long as he can do this with complete freedom. (No exeptions for child porn, russian brides, or slashdot) Also meaning no exeptions for what Gator is doing. People who get "tricked" into installing Gator, or are stupid enough to, are almost getting what they deserve.
The internet actually getting more free as I see it. As the prices for high speed connections, and server hardware go down, Joe Somebody has more access to his own webserver and site.
Error 407 - No creative sig found
Many websites use advertising to stay free (as in beer). One problem with gator style "pop overs" is that instead of the original website driving traffic to their sponsors, it drives it to gator's sponsors. Thus gator style pop-overs reduce advertising income from the original website owners. It also reduces sales income to the sponsors that support them.
In my opinion this is a big defeat for free information (as in beer). If this does not get overruled than many websites that are supported by web advertising will have to charge money or go out of business.
Your site, your content, your visitors. If someone pays you to run ads based on your content then those are the ads viewers should see. Your advertising clients are paying for your product.
How long before someone builds spyware that rearranges the content to put ads where there weren't any ads before?
Of course, I thought Disney would've lost for the non-ending patent rights.
riding round the world on an old motorcycle
I know spam, popups, etc are annoying, but I'm dubious that legal approaches are a good way to fix them. Often, as is the case with censorship (IMHO, of course), it may seem like a good idea to ban something in the short term, but bad in the long run -- and in any case, the whole concept of windows, etc, may not be around in a few years.
I'd generally rather see technical solutions, rather than legal ones, to problems on the 'Net. Legal solutions tend to not work well for mere annoyances (since people don't actually do anything, which results in laws that people simply ignore), simply cause more money to be thrown at lawyers, are slow to adapt with the times, may stifle honest-to-God positive things, tend to promote the deployment of "fragile" protocols/software (which may break when someone who doesn't care about the law comes along), and run into problems since legal boundaries (along cities, states, nations, etc) don't make much sense on the 'Net. If at all possible, I'd prefer to go with technical solutions to problems, to simply do things properly. Popups are a pretty easy thing to fix from a technical standpoint.
Just my 2 cents.
While it may be that Gator now 0wnz the desktop, the person nevertheless gave control over to the program -- a sort of "power of attorney" was granted to the adware by the user. They may have been fooled, but that's a far cry from the nonsense being alleged by uhaul or anyone else. They aren't trying to protect users from being suckered, they just want their monopoly on suckering^H^H^H, I mean, advertising to people.
I think that maybe adware (all software, really) should be properly labeled so that users know what they are clicking yes to. Perhaps we should have mandatory labeling for software similar to nutritional labeling required for food. I want to know what's in it and what it does. I want specifics on files, registry settings, TCP ports, drivers, services/daemons, and so on. Now, some may say that they can't disclose some info because of fears of IP protection or trade secrets. However, that isn't a valid defense to not disclosing the ingredients to a twinkie, and it shouldn't be on hiding the actions of an application.
All of us (I think that Linux users have this too) open their hosts file and add this to it:
127.0.0.1 www.gator.co.uk
127.0.0.1 www.gator.com
127.0.0.1 www.gator.net
127.0.0.1 webdp.gator.com
127.0.0.1 whenu.com
127.0.01 gator.com
This will fix their wagon quite thoroughly, until they switch their domain addresses, then reopen your hosts file and repeat..
I've got a little hosts file (only 22K) that pretty much takes care of all of the jokers that push ads upon you by replacing their ads with a quaint DNS error.
Let me know if you want a copy of the file.
First rule of holes; When in one, stop digging.
Although the argument both for and against the presence of competitors ads have some merit the fundamental issue is still personal choice.
I run a business, my ad is in the yellow pages along with everybody else who is in the same line of work. Why is it that despite the fact that I am surrounded by the ads of others (mostly bigger than mine) I have a larger market share in my area? A rhetorical question to which I'm sure we all know the answer to, my service is better and my prices are fair.
The decision to use a company is still based on choices made on the basis of information provided... NOT on the the basis of 'I saw you first'. You cannot call "Shotgun" in the business world and expect everybody to agree. The solution for these companies is to make sure that people still choose their service or product, even after they have been exposed to all the other available options. This is the USA, there is never going to be someone telling you that you are not allowed to be the best.
Go ahead run your ads anywhere you like in my local yellow pages. My company is the best. If these companies cant handle the competition then maybe they should check what they can do better within their company rather than attempting to call 'shotgun' and make their competitors go away!
It is easier to square the circle than to get round a mathematician. A.De Morgan 1872
This kind of mindless crap will make fair internet advertising useless. If the reverse is also legal then we should start some kind of .org to list and use netware to hack the services and software that will need to be driven off the net. Microsoft might even get smart and help for a change!
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
Gator and Uhaul "have argued that their ad-sales and delivery tactics are legal because consumers agree to receive the ads when they download and install their software."
It would seem to me that adjusting a hosts file is even more on affirmative decision on the part of the user. Of course, when you run your own ad server, slashdot doesn't generate an ad impression. Theoretically, some of these services might allow a ad impression, but subsequently overlay that ad with another. Slashdot still gets paid, but the correct advertisement never shows up.
The latter system could be construed (by a sufficiently aggrieved advertiser) as fraud. Eventually, though, rates for banner ads will decline even more, depriving advertiser supported sites of much needed revenue. Presumably, that's why the Washington Post sued Gator (and won a preliminary injunction last year-- from the same court, to boot)
If I put up a billboard (or rent one for a month), and my competitor comes around and puts his ad overtop of mine, thats vandalism. How exactly is this different than this case? U-Haul rents or owns virtual billboards along "the information superhighway" and someone else comes around and puts their ad overtop of U-Hauls. Its vandalism. Even if its only for a few people, its still vandalism. Another example of the court not grasping the concept because its electronic.
The Doormat
If you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention.
I'd agree with the judges reasoning if the pop-up box to install Gator (it's an ActiveX component I believe, and there's a standard MSIE dialog box which prompts the user) said 'Do you with to install "Gator, a program which places additional advertising onto webpages. Part of the revenue from this business goes back to the website you're trying to visit"'.
However, the text presented to the user comes from the component author, and every time I've come across Gator it's along the lines of '"Date/Time checker, a program that blah blah blah enhances your internet experience blah blah blah" by Gator Corporation.' NO MENTION of replacing or adding ads to web pages.
Sure, it doesn't say that Gator doesn't do anything else, but I don't see how this is any different than, say, yet another chain mail which also happens to mail itself to everyone in your mailbox automatically. The primary purpose of the software is hostile and hidden to the user installing it, which is about as 'trojan horse' as you can get.
Unless your are a site operator having your ad crappola trumped by somebody else's ad crappola, just run Panicware or Webwasher and be done with it. There are a myriad of fine tools out there to kill adjunk as fast as the crapmeisters can dream up new XML applets.
Scruting the inscrutable for over 50 years.
So this means I'm allowed to cover a billboard five minutes from my house with a banner that says "www.goatse.cx" in 4500 point font?
I used to recommend Google AdSense as the best ad system I had ever seen...non-intrusive, context-dependent on the content of the page it is displayed on...until I discovered what happened in the link in my sig. Even the once well-respected Google is just another company now.
Now I'm of the opinion Internet ad systems are a doomed system no matter what. The Internet is supposed to be this concept of freedom and availability, which conflicts with commercialism that companies have tried to infect it with since the 90s. "Internet companies" and their cheesedick college graduate CEOs should be drug out into the street and shot.
"Sufferin' succotash."
The problem with Gator's approach is that all activity occurs client side. The code and structure of the website is not tampered with but rather what is transmitted from the site to the user is modified by the programs. Therefore, in most cases websites can do nothing with their code to prevent Gator from screwing it up.
What they can do, and what MS has proved is definitely technologically feasible with Opera and MSN.com, is redirect users detected using Gator and similar software. Currently, probably half of the people who visit these sites and load a different page than others, thanks to Gator, probably have no idea their computer is infected. THESE people are the ones the companies are suing Gator over because the customers have no idea they are getting a "false" image of the company's site.
If users with ad-changing spyware were redirected to a page similar to the ones people using third-party browser (not MIE or Netscape) frequently get on major sites, a page that said something to the effect of "You have software installed that may prevent the proper viewing of the site" and then named exactly what was messing things up, I would bet that a lot more action would be taken against spyware. People would be aware that their Internet is filtered and hijacked, and they would do something about it. Currently, I doubt future court rulings will be different until the technology and method of presenting/counter popups and ads changes radically.
1) Get Coca-Cola to pay my company mucho bucks to "popup" a Diet Coke ad everytime the TV viewer was supposed to see a Diet Pepsi ad?
3) Profit!
What about users customizing their DVRs to play content they _prefer_ instead of the ads they were going to see? (ie, show me those beer babes fighting in the fountain ad everytime that lame shampoo commercial comes on).
Or how about allowing the user to automatically skip commercials altogether? ... Err ... Whoops
detect gator agent, redirect page to we are sorry but your computer is currently unsecure running the GAIN system and we cannot allow you access to our page. Please come back when you have unistalled the GATOR client and are running a secure browser and we will be happy to do business with you. Thank-you and good luck with your security errors, the management at U-Hual.com
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
These are vile programs. The kind whose deletion by anything other than the official uninstaller will kill your Internet connection. Programs whose tendrils wrap so tightly around your core components that they are like a weed you cannot kill. Programs designed to befuddle the average user and wreck havoc when they are crossed. In other words, they are completely legal viruses and trojan horses that hide behind the EULA's veil of "we're not responsible for damages to your system."
Now, I'll be the first to admit that I think people need to make themselves aware of this issue and take responsibility for what they download and use. They do need to have a look around the Internet prior to downloading a popular program, just to see what little "bonuses" come with it. However, I also think our government should step in and save those who are ignorant to the problem. Both government agencies and software designers can do a lot more to crackdown on this than they have. Legislation should be passed that outlaws programs whose sole purpose is to produce unwanted advertising and whose nature is elusive at best.
Let's face it. Someone out there is getting very rich off of our personal information. Rich enough to swamp the Internet with more ads to spread the infection to more computers. It has to stop.
I didn't realize this until recently: Win2K has a built-in NTP client. If you are on an NT domain or other corporate LAN, this has probably already been set up for you:
There. No cheesy spy-ware necessary. Also, performance-conscious gamers needn't worry. NTP synchronization requires, at worst, perhaps one packet per hour to keep things straight.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
Indeed. Configure your firewall to do transparent squid, and then put the following into your squid.conf:
Say no to software patents.
If I run an application that strategically blocks advertisements, how is this any different from what this company is doing? In my case, someone else paid money for that particular ad to be presented, and I'm "overlaying" (more like overriding) it with another piece of information (a randomly generated quote). I think the court ruled correctly, as the user took action to install this program (whether he paid attention to the click-through license or not). I would think that, if the court ruled the other way, that would open up many popup blockers / advertisement blockers to various lawsuits.
Now, as to the issue of the click through license -- I wonder what other way we could do such a thing? Perhaps legal mandates stating that all applications / tools / utilities from 3rd parties must be plainly presented the user? The problem, of course, is that this would be a local (at best) solution, and, it would, I think, just create some wierd variant of that type of advertisements, probably doing more harm than good.
Michael C. Hollinger
"Choose to wear" is a different issue. In fact, I choose to run all the web pages I view through one of several filters, depending on what OS I happen to be using at the time. In theory, gator users have chosen gator as their "filter".
While I think gator is a PITA, I also think that anyone who does a little research will find it easy enought to not to use gator if they don't want to.
Give gator et. al. their due...Think about the light bulb that lit up over someone's head: "Hey--we can write a filter proxy. But instead of taking the ads out--we can put ads in! And we can sell ad space that our audience will see when they view the web pages of our clients competitors! We'll make millions [angry with us]. Mwuahahahaha..." Wish I'd thought of it.
I think this is a good decision. I would find it disconcerting to hear the courts say that I must view a web page as its author intended. I get to choose how I view something. If I want to read a magazine back to front, I get to choose. If I want to filter the web content I view, I get to choose
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
Users who have Gator on their machines against their will may have a computer intrusion case, under federal "exceeds authorized access" computer crime laws, but that wasn't what was litigated here.