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Xbox Hackers, Linux, the DMCA, And Modchips
HardcoreGamer writes "The New York Times has a long article on Xbox hacking, why Microsoft hates it, and who does it (Google). 'Xbox hackers are exploiting Microsoft's business model, which is to sell Xbox hardware at a loss...' but Microsoft doesn't make the money back on software -- as it planned to -- if you decide to load up Xbox Linux. Where else can you get a PIII-733 with graphics and audio for $180? The reporter talked to the IDSA; Andrew Huang, author of 'Hacking the Xbox: An Introduction to Reverse Engineering'; a Manhattan exec who hacked his Xbox and said 'The reality is that if you could bypass Microsoft's operating system you would end up with a fairly powerful computer for less than $200;' and others. The article discusses the DMCA, modchips, the Xbox Linux Project and lots more. A good -- if long -- read. A shorter version of the story is at the International Herald Tribune. Best quote? 'Microsoft is a company passionate about innovation and creativity. We are also very committed to respect for others' intellectual property and we request the same respect applied to our innovations.'"
Since when is this word part of the capitalist vocabulary ? Doesn't seem to consistant with the ongoing lawsuits, FUD wars, hypocrisy, etc.
Exploiting other company's business model flaws is the basis of the world economy, so let's not be stupid, if they don't want flaws to be exploited, they've better not have flaws in the first place. Too bad, it's too late now.
theefer
"We are also very committed to respect for others' intellectual property and we request the same respect applied to our innovations.'" Yea, we've seen some _Very_ good examples of that in the past...
I think the P3-733 for 180 comparison is not completely valid.
The XBox is not really extensible like a regular PC. How many PCI slots do you have? How many USB/FireWire ports? As a console, many 'regular' features unnecessary for a console that we take for granted are not included.
This kinda limits the usefulness of the XBox.
It's kinda like those deals on the Dell server machines you can get with some creative configuration and coupon applications.
Sure, you get for $300 a full powered server machine...but it has no AGP slot. So much for gaming...
Are there updated drivers for the XBox video card available at all?
Here
We're embracing and extending the XBox.
I thought that the XBox selling costs covered variable costs (ie the parts in the box), and so even if it doesn't entirley cover the fixed costs (ie the factory) at low volume it will do eventually when enough units have been shipped has been reached?
If this is the case then XBox Linux helps MS by raising the volumes (not to mention giving them better sales figures to lie about to their game makers).
If of course they are selling below variable cost then well, count me in for loads of the things - I have no problems attempting to bankrupt the swine who injected cash into SCO to prolong their litigation.
Beep beep.
Digital Millennium Copyright Act
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So...
They're all for innovation and creativity... but you should respect their own...
Yet you can't innovate or create new items with their hardware that you PURCHASE, because they won't respect YOUR innovation and creativity.
Sounds like they want their cake and to eat it, too.
Human nature is the same everywhere; the modes only are different. -- Earl of Chesterfield
If I'm not greatly mistaken, that's what the (Google) link is for. Try it out, see if it works.
"The best argument against democracy is a five minute chat with the average voter."
--Winston Churchill
Microsoft is pressing charges against people that blatently point out their flawed business plan. When other companies sell "at a loss" it does mean they actually lose money, just that they don't get enough profit from it to make it worth it.
And you know because it's MS they've never be able to fix all the exploitable (security) holes in the XBox.
64MB is a problem too, yes you can solder on another 64MB if you're skilled enough. But that's a lowly amount of RAM by modern standards.
You can get a whitebox for $200... Perhaps not *quite* as powerful, but close enough.. AND you get ports.. and no silly mods needed to run what ever you want..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
To claim that they are doing it for price is a bit off. The people do it so that they can feel in some way they have gotten away with something. They are told that they shouldn't, then they do, and they gain bragging rights. They gain a tiny amount of control in a world that has little of it for the average perosn - they are briefly a David to the Goliath of Microsoft. The money isn't an issue.
True, to get a PIII 733, a NVidia graphics card, etc etc for $200 is a good deal at first glance I suppose.
Were I in the States, I could go to pricewatch and order me up some parts.
PIII 733 by itself is $67, you figure you still need a motherboard and case, that is easily another $80 at least, and then you need the graphics card...
But looking again, you can get a PIII 1G and the motherboard as a combo for $65.
You can get a case for about $30. You can get the video card for about $80.
So a better system for cheaper... and the thing is, that is only if you are still looking for the PIII, if you stepped up to an Athlon XP, you would then get far more processing power, and you would only be spending a little more.
Granted, that doesn't help you if you have no clue how to put together a system, and you only have $200... but I have a feeling the type of person willing to hack a perfectly good game system, and then run Linux on it, is going to be able to put together a computer system on their own.
In the end, I think the monetary reasons for hacking are non-existant, aside from those bad at math.
It is the fun factor and the thumb-your-nose-at-MS factor.
There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
Granted, it doesn't quite have the same graphics horsepower, but hey, it's cheap!
They are requesting respect for their innovations, huh?
IIRC, the whole idea was to take existing off-the-shelf PC parts that used an existing PC architecture and put them in a box that could easily mass produced with a very short time-to-market and an OS that allowed existing developers to leverage their existing skills.
Hmmm... That sounds familiar... now where have I heard that before?
Oh, of course! That's what made BG a gazillionaire in the first place!
I'm not against MS wanting to control a closed platform they developed, but I am insulted by their insistance that this is an IP issue. It's not an IP issue, it's a PP (physical property) issue. If they don't like people voiding the warranties on their hardware, they should have made their CDs spin backwards like Nintendo.
"Lawyers are for sucks."
- Doug McKenzie
"Microsoft is a company passionate about innovation and creativity. We are also very committed to respect for others' intellectual property and we request the same respect applied to our innovations."
My response to quote, "How long have you worked for Microsoft?"
--
Adobe's anti-counterfeiting softw
its a bit more then 'because I can'.
The Xbox is designed to 'fit in' to the entertainment center..
Getting a pc small enough to 'fit in' would cost more then the average white box..
And if its JUST for use for video/dvd.. why bother with building something that sticks out like a sore thumb anyway
---- Booth was a patriot ----
That situation sounds good, except you need to throw in a DVD drive and a harddrive. Also, whatever motherboard you have is going to be pretty old and not have an ethernet controller or decent sound. You'll probably need a scan converter to hook your vga output to your monitor too.
:)
I think it's silly for people to spend so much effort on a non-upgradable box(except the HD) but the money issue is there, and they want to, so let them play
-Bucky
This hard-nosed approach is a clever marketing move to play you X-Box hackers for rubes, I think. Not that it's like it's a bad thing to be taken advantage of this way; X-Box has a superior lineup of games and better hardware than the other systems out there anyway.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
All evidence I've seen regarding Microsoft 'losing money on the X-Box' is related to dolts who think they can go to pricewatch.com and figure out what an X-Box costs to produce.
Hey - jackasses - you're not Microsoft, and you're not purchasing millions of bits of hardware at a time. You aren't getting bulk discounts. You aren't making deals.
Anyone have any actual evidence that Microsoft loses money on each X-Box?
"My friend's second cousin's husband's acquaintance works for.." isn't evidence.
Sounds like a monopoly trying to flood the market with cheaper goods to kill off the competition.
Its actually the #1 reason monopolies should be controlled.
Is anyone awake out there, or have we lost our rights?
God spoke to me
As an example, the condemnation by the Commercial Court of Nanterre, France, on 27th September 2001 of Microsoft Corp. to a penalty of 3 million francs in damages and interest, for violation of intellectual property (piracy, to use the unfortunate term that your firm commonly uses in its publicity).
The link is to an english translation of the response by the Peruean congressman Edgar Villanueva to US pressure to abandon open source plans.
Fine Fine .. we won't copy Microsoft Bob.
Sheesh.
> Microsoft is a company passionate about innovation and creativity
Yep, sure. As long as their customers aren't being innovative or creative, they're cool. Big Bro... I mean Microsoft retains that right for himself alone.
Cantankerous old coot since 1957.
That is where we want to go today!
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o0t!
No PCI slots, why would you need one? You have ethernet and audio. Why would anyone upgrade their video drivers for linux anyway...anyone actually play tuxracer? USB ports...it has 4, all of the controllers are misshaped USB controllers. All you need is one adapter and a hub and you're all set.
Ok, so you can't upgrade the RAM, but it has all a 733MHz needs. You think all this limits the usefulness of the XBox...I think its the best thing that ever happened to linux, no hardware compatability issues for xboxlinux because everyone that runs it has the same hardware. Its cheaper than web_tv. People are in the process of turning the xbox into a PVR. I would rather use my xbox on the TV than any other device, its perfect for it...almost like it was made for it or something.
The EFF's Fred von Lohmann made an interesting point in the article:
While I certainly believe in the right to tinker with an Xbox you paid for and use by yourself, I see a shady area when it comes to interaction with other (unmodified) Xboxes - like on Xbox Live. I'm talking about cheating here, but I think the same can be applied to use of compromised software in an online environment.
Online PC games have been plagued by cheating players since day one, because of the ease with which their client software can be modified. Xbox Live does not have this problem yet (so far cheaters have been exploiting existing flaws in Xbox games), but I fear this will not last for much longer if easy, modchip-less Xbox hacks become commonplace.
Which brings me to my point: just how far should your right to tinker extend? What if it interferes with my enjoyment of the product? Especially since I paid for the product too, and I'm using it for its intended purposes while you're not?
This is one of the main concerns of many Xbox Live users like myself, and I haven't seen this issue addressed properly by either the media or the Xbox hackers. Can anyone enlighten me? How do Xbox hackers feel about this matter? Are they taking it into consideration?
Hee-hee. Dying tickles!
According to Linux Journal, the xbox runs off a celeron processor. I also highly doubt microsoft is still taking a loss on manufacturing these things... the cost of hardware has been halfed since microsoft first introduced the system.
From Full Disclosure:r e/ 2003-July/010895.html
Clickable link
http://lists.netsys.com/pipermail/full-disclosu
[snip]
For an unknown reason this check is not performed on the audio (.wav) and font (.xtf) files. Unfourtunately for Microsoft there exists an exploitable integer underflow vulnerabilitiy within the font file loader which can be exploited with a malformed font file. When the XTF header is processed the dashboards reads a 4 byte blocksize field from the font file. This is expected to represent the size of some datablock including the 4 bytes of the size field itself. The blocksize is then allocated and the sizefield is copied into the beginning of the buffer. This is already a possible overflow bug when the field contains the values 0..3. Due to memory alignment this is not exploitable. But then the blocksize is decreased by 4 because the dashboard wants to read the rest of the block into memory. Obviously values of 0..3 will underflow when decreased by 4 and this results in the dashboard wanting to read up to ~4 gigabytes of data from the font file in a f.e. 3 bytes buffer.
Because the XBOX malloc()/free() implementation is also storing control information inbound and is similiar to the Windows 2000/XP heap allocators this bug is exploitable and allows execution of arbitrary code. The attached proof of concept code shows that exploiting is possible with offsets that are equal on all dashboards and XBOX versions known.
[/snip]
Microsoft sure has a funny way of looking at innovation. The original meaning of innovation is to take something that already exists and to find a new use for it. This is NOT what Microsoft does. They take something that already exists and use it in exactly the same way that someone else does or plans to and then renames it. (cough! Indrema) They've done this over and over, yet they claim to innovate. If they had it their way, they'd claim they invented the GUI too...
Un-news
I will respect their IP rights. I don't pirate MS software or anybody's else's software.
However, MS has to respect that once you buy something, you have the right to do whatever you want with it. If I want to buy an Xbox and use it as a door stop, that's my right.
This is another example of giantkiller technologies like XML , P2P and Linux. The battle lines are still being drawn, but the core message is the same - businesses have to adapt to the new model, because it's not going away. Notice how PS2 modders have been pre-empted with PS2 Linux? That was no accident. That was just smart thinking from Sony (albeit rare). Wait until XBox sales start flagging, and watch the reins come off the modding community. I'm sure even Microsoft's CEO is capable of some smart thinking.
"It's not your information. It's information about you" - John Ford, Vice President, Equifax
I bought a used 500MHz Xeon workstation for $200, with 256k RAM, Firewire, USB, SuperIO, actual PCI slots, even three ISA slots for my legacy tasks, etc, in a better looking, albiet much larger, package, and the performance likekly easily nukes XBox. No reason to futz with mods and other crap.
People always miss the point on retail sales.
Ever notice how books top the bestseller list before they can be bought by the public? You know why? Because the people who BUY books are not consumers: They are bookstores.
Same goes with the Xbox. Microsoft sells to electronics stores. If an Xbox is in the store, they've sold it already. If an Xbox game is in the store, it's already been sold.
Microsoft doesn't care if the consumer buys more games, they just care if the retail store buys more games. Admittedly they are connected, but you have to remember that it is possible for MS to break even on a product that is ONLY bought by the retail chains, and never sold to a single person. Indeed, they can make a very nice profit if the hype is effective.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
Do you blame the hackers, or do you blame the people who made the games without thinking about the hackers?
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
Where else can you get a PIII-733 with graphics and audio for $180?
Well I can build a 1.3 GHz Duron with graphics and audio for about $200-$300, does that count?
---- "Excuse me. Where's the children's gun section?"
The majority of Xbox linux users -also- buy Xbox software. I know that's how I do it. Splinter Cell and Halo are awesome.. so is Linux.
The way I see it, I'm just a legitimate customer who found some uses for his hardware in addition to what the manufacturer intended.
Sigs are awesome huh?
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
There are really three distinct issues here:
"Where else can you get a PIII-733 with graphics and audio for $180?"
Damn, I can do better with PriceWatch:
$64 Soyo M7IWM/L Motherboard, Celeron 1GHz CPU
$56 MGS Powered by ATI RADEON 7500 128MB SDRAM
w/TV-Out+DVI AGP 4X/2X
$20 MID ATX Turbo CASE W/ 230W ATX POWER SUPPLY
---
$130
Now add this $32 hotswapable 20 gig HD I found at HTC Net Store and for about the same price, you get a hard drive.
Now, out of the U.S., this will be hard to do, but if you live in the Imperial Homeland, the argument that modding your XBox is cheaper than building your own PC does not fry.
Note: I did not include links for two reasons: 1) every changes so fast, they would probably dead or misleading by the time you read this and 2), I ain't a sales person. Do your own searching.
Theft of Marketing Strategy Outcome! For God's Sake, we must be sure the definition of "intellectual property" prevents individuals from doing anything that disrupts a business plan. Come to think of it, it should be a crime to buy an advertised sale item without also buying two items at regular price. Theft of bait! Damn freeloaders.
"Selling of modded X-Boxes is clearly an abuse of Microsoft's Trademark."
Hardly. I can buy a Chevy Corvette, mod the crap out of it and sell it as "Bill's Modded Corvettes". Chevy couldn't care less. Why does MS get a different set of laws than anybody else?
"you are still using Microsoft's Intellectual Property contrary to the software lisence that was granted with the sale of the unit."
There is no license granted or implied with the sale of a piece of hardware. I own an XBOX, and I've looked. I bought one, I never agreed to anything when I bought it. I never agreed to anything when I started it up. You may imagine there is one, but I may also imagine I am the prince of persia, too.
" That's completely legit, especially if you are essentially just enabling the PC industry standard parts."
If you divide that line any further we won't be able to see it. You're saying there are certain parts in an X-BOX that I can do with what I want, there are others that I can't. Nobody seems to have this inventory. I suggest the moment you say that there are significant portions of the XBOX that are non-proprietary that you can't tell me that I can't use the box for whatever I damned well please.
Remember, just because MS (or Sony, or Nintendo, or GM, or Xerox, or Apple, or ANYBODY) doesn't like it doesn't make it illegal. It doesn't make it a violation of copyright or DMCA. It just means that a lot of big companies have a short-sighted board up their ass that makes them act contrary to their own long-term interests.
Selling of modded X-Boxes is clearly an abuse of Microsoft's Trademark.
So if I put a new engine in my Ford truck and sell it I'm violating Ford's trademark? No. Building your own game console and calling it an XBox would violate Microsoft's trademark. Selling a used item, in original condition or no, does not in any way violate the original manufacture's trademark.
Modding the X-Box to bypass game security is clearly a violation of the DMCA. Even if you are running unauthorized third-party games rather than illegal copies, you are still using Microsoft's Intellectual Property contrary to the software lisence that was granted with the sale of the unit.
You do know that there are several boot ROMs for the XBox which use no Microsoft code whatsoever don't you? Also, the latest hack doesn't ever require flashing your ROM, just using a special font file. Running pirated games is certainly illegal. Running 3rd party games or Linux should not be. Is using these hacks in violation of the DMCA? Maybe, maybe not. That is for the courts to decide, not you or me. BTW, I know of no software license you agree to when purchasing an XBox. Microsoft's Xbox firmare is covered under copyright law, not licensing. You are correct that using this code in another boot ROM is illegal, but under copyright law, not DMCA.
When you lose something irreplaceable, you don't mourn for the thing you lost, you mourn for yourself. - Harpo Marx
Wiley Technology Publishing -- which often works with Microsoft to publish guides for Microsoft products, like the Xbox -- agreed to publish Huang's book then backed out, citing DMCA concerns, but says they would not ask Huang to return the advance they paid him.
Unable to find another publisher, Huang self-published and began selling copies out of his garage. The Electronic Frontier Foundation then stepped in and helped Huang find a new publisher.
There's more in the article, including some discussion about the chilling effect recent legislation has on intellectual freedom.
It seems to me that their strategy was to lower the price of the XBox to encourage more people to buy it, and it doesn't seem like they are losing money on the actual hardware (marketing, R&D, and other accounting matters may likely show a loss). Additionally, it seems like they have been trying to keep this debate going in the media and on the internet.
Therefore, by giving their hardware praise and talking about how inexpensive it is I think a lot of people are unwittingly playing right into MS's hand. When people see these comments they are likely to buy the product and use it however they see fit, but will probably buy a few games, and maybe participate in on-line gaming. This is exactly what Bill is looking for.
Of course such forward thinking and creative marketing may not have occurred to MS, but then again they did build a corporate empire based on a decision to lose money on their sales of DOS to IBM thereby encouraging millions of other users to lock themselves into their products. But then again I could be another MS spy sent to discourage people from hacking the Xboxes.
LIVE, Love, die
Hacking AN X-Box hurts no-one other than a convicted monopoly company that's using it's extreme wealth to prop up a product that would have gone down the drain by now if it had come from anyone else a 'la dreamcast.
To be honest, I don't think that the modding is really even hurting MS. They expected to take it up the pooper so to speak on the x-box, and thats what they are getting.
I think blaming moders for loses is in the same league as the RIAA blaming piracy for all of the recording industries ills; It gives them something they can tell the stock holders to explain why the industry has had less than perfect performance.
On Wall Street they say "buy low, sell high" On the pad we say, "buy high, sell high" Isn't that somehow better?
"The reality is that if you could bypass Microsoft's operating system you would end up with a fairly powerful computer for less than $200"
As self righteous as hackers can be over the XBox-Linux debacle, I don't know of a company in the world that slit their own throats like these fools expect MS to. I'm sorry, these people simply aren't living in reality.
I've said it before and I'll say it again-- when a company has so much to lose by allowing the competition access to their product only a stoned idiot would consider this a good thing for their business, yet we have plenty of absolute fucking idiots crying that they somehow have a right to force MS into Linux compatibility when that God given right to Linux never existed. "It's a sad day for Microsoft" only because somebody got smacked upside the head with a reality check.
Look, I like the hacks as much as the next guy. I'll be using it just to play the import Yukikaze (Movie; Cripes this game looks hot), but it just bugs the shit out of me when people insist on pushing their own little open source fantasies in places where reality simply doesn't allow for them.
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