Xbox Hackers, Linux, the DMCA, And Modchips

HardcoreGamer writes "The New York Times has a long article on Xbox hacking, why Microsoft hates it, and who does it (Google). 'Xbox hackers are exploiting Microsoft's business model, which is to sell Xbox hardware at a loss...' but Microsoft doesn't make the money back on software -- as it planned to -- if you decide to load up Xbox Linux. Where else can you get a PIII-733 with graphics and audio for $180? The reporter talked to the IDSA; Andrew Huang, author of 'Hacking the Xbox: An Introduction to Reverse Engineering'; a Manhattan exec who hacked his Xbox and said 'The reality is that if you could bypass Microsoft's operating system you would end up with a fairly powerful computer for less than $200;' and others. The article discusses the DMCA, modchips, the Xbox Linux Project and lots more. A good -- if long -- read. A shorter version of the story is at the International Herald Tribune. Best quote? 'Microsoft is a company passionate about innovation and creativity. We are also very committed to respect for others' intellectual property and we request the same respect applied to our innovations.'"

Comments

Respect ?

[theefer]

Since when is this word part of the capitalist vocabulary ? Doesn't seem to consistant with the ongoing lawsuits, FUD wars, hypocrisy, etc.

Exploiting other company's business model flaws is the basis of the world economy, so let's not be stupid, if they don't want flaws to be exploited, they've better not have flaws in the first place. Too bad, it's too late now.

Re:Respect ?

[gilesjuk]

Indeed, they would encase the whole PCB in opaque resin or glue the case shut if they wanted the XBox to be a huge secret. They didn't and so they must live with their decision.

Sure the business model is sell for a loss and make back the money on licensing etc.., this just exposes how stupid that business model is. It's being tried on printers and printer ink now, the consumer is getting screwed. Sure printers are affordable, but heavy users of inkjets would sooner pay more for the printer and have cheaper ink.

Re:Respect ?

[dook43]

There's no flaws in the hardware design of the xbox. There are flaws in the savegame handling of 007: Agent Under Fire (and various other games, not Microsoft's fault) that allows unsigned Linux to be run. As for modchips, you can stick a xilinx PLC in between any parallel bus structure (read bunnie's book) and find out exactly what signals are being sent between the northbridge and the processor. Duplicate those signals, and voila! You have a hacked xbox. As bunnie mentions, however, as a parallel bus gets faster and faster it becomes more difficult to trap signals. Also, you could use a extremely high speed serial bus with undocumented protocols to avoid hacking (I'm seeing data pass by, but where is the start and the end of the bitstream). Something like this is probably better implemented via a custom set of serial-connected chips rather than sending the data between the processor and north bridge (nVidia SPP in this instance) until your fsb frequency can scale beyond 1GHZ+.

Re:Respect ?

[Sespindola]

Amen.

IANAL, but it seems to me that the lobbying efforts that companies throughout the world are making in order to save their tecnically inept asses, is sending "fair use" down the drain.

Imagine you buy a Ford, and is stops in the middle of nowhere. And you can't even touch the engine because it could be seen as "modding" it.

Hold on people, we are about to face some rough corporate times.

Re:Respect ?

[theefer]

It's not a technical flaw. It's a business flaw.

Re:Respect ?

[alienw]

You do realize the xbox has a place for an LPC header inside? The only thing you have to do to get a modchip in there is to solder in a header into the provided holes and plug in an LPC FlashROM chip on a circuit board. I'd say that's a pretty big flaw.

Re:Respect ?

[byolinux]

There's also a flaw in MechAssault, which is published by... Microsoft... so it's not just 007.

Re:Respect ?

[Troed]

Hi. I am one of the Xbox hackers. There are lots of flaws both in the Xbox hardware and the software (in the proprietary chips as well as the BIOS).

Re:Respect ?

[ruiner13]

Agreed. If Ford decided to start selling the Exploder (Explorer to you) at a big loss for $1000 each hoping to make the money up on broken part replacements and gasoline, and I buy one and buy someone elses gasoline and parts, what would they be able to do? Nothing. Just sit there and take a loss. That is why virtually no business outside of the computer world does this. All I can think of off the top of my head are Ink Jet printers, XBox, and razor blades. Ink Jet printer makers and Microsoft seem to be quick to use the DMCA to stifle competition. I don't think Gillette or Bic would start suing people for making razor blades that happened to fit their razor handle. They'd probably try to make their blades better so no one would want to use the cometitions, or they change their business model.

Re:Respect ?

[Troed]

(... and ground D0. It works because it was designed to work that way)

Re:Respect ?

[mikewolf]

are you kidding?

this is the same business model that gaming systems have used for years.

it makes perfect sense for video games...

the hardware is expensive, but if you can sell it for cheaper you can triple or quadruple your game sales revenue...

don't think this is some new business strategy that MS through the years, this is standard practice, and it works for gaming systems (otherwise all of the gaming companies would be out of business by now)

it might not make sense for printers, but i'm not sure that i agree with your comment about the ink cartridges, b/c why couldn't you buy generic cartridges and circumvent giving the manufacturer any money back????

Re:Respect ?

[Trigun]

Soderless/chipless X-box hack right here

Flaw in dashboard, aslo published by Microsoft, and worse than any savegame hacks.

Re:Respect ?

[gilesjuk]

It did make sense until the arrival of the internet.

Once a console's copy protection has been busted and the method is easy, then it's game over. See Dreamcast for an example of that.

Re:Respect ?

[Krapangor]

As for modchips, you can stick a xilinx PLC in between any parallel bus structure (read bunnie's book) and find out exactly what signals are being sent between the northbridge and the processor. Duplicate those signals, and voila!

This wouldn't be possible if MS would as clever as e.g. me. A real secure architecture would use encrypted busses with changing keys. And your simple replay attack won't work anymore. Note that the XBox is in fact one of the first examples of MS's trusted platform, so it should indeed have such features.

Re:Respect ?

[Waffle Iron]

don't think this is some new business strategy that MS through the years, this is standard practice, and it works for gaming systems (otherwise all of the gaming companies would be out of business by now)

The main difference is that older gaming systems had hardware that was either an underpowered toy, or totally incompatible with any software, or both. It was intrinsically useless for most other purposes.

Microsoft may have made a mistake by boxing up a standard PC that can run off-the-shelf software, selling it below cost, and then trying to lock it up with a flimsy electronic scheme. I realize that they were trying to leverage PC game software for their platform, but there are downsides to that approach that they have to live with now.

Re:Respect ?

[kotj.mf]

it might not make sense for printers, but i'm not sure that i agree with your comment about the ink cartridges, b/c why couldn't you buy generic cartridges and circumvent giving the manufacturer any money back????

Because the printer manufacturer puts a chip in the cartridge that makes sure you can only use the manufacturer's ink, and then invokes the DMCA when a generic manufacturer attempts to circumvent that "feature." Pay attention.

Generic cartridges are quickly becoming a thing of the past.

Re:Respect ?

[fiftyvolts]

I would like to point out that the above post provides incomplete information. Console companies have done this for a long time, but all it has done is run their profits into the ground.

"Lies!" you say? well its not. Take exhibit A: the case of Sega Saturn vs Playstation. While Sega was trying to make the "Ultimate 2D machine," Sony was flexing its CE muscles and spending millions on researching how to manufacture their own chips cheaply and quickly for the playstation.

When they both were released the Saturn retailed for $399 and the playstation at (drum roll please) $299. Sega attempted to get in on the market by selling their product at a loss and match the $299 tag on the PSone. Sony on the other hand was _making_ money on the console because it had spent its time and effort on mass producing its own components. The Saturn, as we all know, was a business failure.

The same goes for the DreamCast and N64 which were both also sold at a loss. Time will tell on the XBox and GC. I think Nintendo might have learned their lesson and will tred more carefully, but MS... well, let's just say that the odds of the XBox making them money is quite low.

Sony is not selling the PS2 at a loss either, keep that in mind...

By the way the above can be read about in more detail on this site. It's more entertainning there anyway.

Re:Respect ?

[Dajur]

"There are flaws in the savegame handling of 007: Agent Under Fire (and various other games, not Microsoft's fault)."

Wrong, the same flaw exists in mechassault, a microsoft game, and I would bet my money on any game that uses MS's saved game API in the XDK. So I think it is MS's fault.

Re:Respect ?

[falsified]

Their business model has failed, quite simply, because their system sucks. I don't know any people that favor the Xbox over PS2 (and I don't hang out with anti-MS geeks). The only decent game put out for Xbox exclusively was Halo. I don't play many video games myself, but it seems to me that every decent game for the Xbox is licensed for other systems. Yes, this is all subjective, but I know most gamers share my opinions.

And am I wrong in saying that you must pay for internet gameplay, while PS2 or Gamecube allows it for free?

You can't make money back on games when you don't have any games.

Re:Respect ?

[spectecjr]

Sony is not selling the PS2 at a loss either, keep that in mind...

They were, until recently. At least AU$ 150 per unit.

Simon

Re:Respect ?

[lsdino]

I don't think Gillette or Bic would start suing people for making razor blades that happened to fit their razor handle. They'd probably try to make their blades better so no one would want to use the cometitions, or they change their business model.

And you'd be wrong. Gillette will sue you if you violate their patents (and even LOOK like their product, let alone interoperate). And they have patents like this one, and this one and many more pertaining to razors. Not to mention Gillette was the company that patented the original safety razor - so they've been at this for a while.

The problem with your analogy is that in Gillette's case they patent the razor blades AND the interface between the two. That means you can't clone their blades, and you can't connect without their handle violating a patent.

Imagine if Ford invents a new way to fill your gas tank. Only licensed gas stations can use this patented nozzle. You'd effectively be paying Ford for a percentage of your gas. Could they stop you from hacking the Explorer? As long as you don't use their IP, probably not. Compatibility is something people expect in their gas tanks, so that will never happen. But most people seem fine with it happening in razors, and ditto on consoles. Consoles obviously can't patent the execution of code, but they can copyright bootloaders and BIOSes.

Re:Respect ?

[kfx]

Apparently Microsoft does, else they wouldn't bother prosecuting modchippers. Whether it actually will have any effect is something else entirely.

Re:Respect ?

[Waffle Iron]

does anyone seriously believe that enough people are going to buy an XBox and use it for non gaming purposes to actually hurt M$ financially ?.

Probably not. But they're worried that the broad availability of hacks around their XBox restriction technologies will allow widespread copying of games. That's a valid concern, but they would have been better off selling a box that was not usable as a PC.

Making it a PC attracts far more interest in hacking the box, which makes the circumvention methods much more easily available. This also makes it much more difficult to justify squashing the hackers on legal grounds because the small minority of people running Linux have an arguably valid reason to hack the box.

Re:Respect ?

[kfx]

The only decent game put out for Xbox exclusively was Halo.

And they only have that because they assimilated Bungie during Halo's development--Halo was originally intended to be a PC game. And thanks to MS, they have yet to deliver that, even after all this time.

Re:Respect ?

[Maul]

At launch (and up until recently IIRC), Sony WAS selling the PS2 at a loss.

The difference is that the PS2 has sold more games.

I don't personally believe that the PS2 has the _best_ game lineup, but it seems to be the most popular.

Selling the console at a loss is OK if you end up on top of game sales.

Re:Respect ?

[Mathonwy]

let's just say that the odds of the XBox making them money is quite low.

Ahh, but there's the trick. It doesn't HAVE to make them money right now. This is microsoft we're talking about. They can afford to take a hit. (Heck, if they wanted to, they could probably afford to just GIVE every household in the united states an XBox) Making money would be nice for them right now, but that's more of a side bonus. The main thing they need to do is cost their competitors (Sony/nintendo/etc) market share. Even if they have to sell at a loss for a while to do that, they can probably afford to. And having a complete monopoly on household gaming would almost certainly be worth that kind of investment....

Re:Respect ?

[zerocool^]

Probably not. But they're worried that the broad availability of hacks around their XBox restriction technologies will allow widespread copying of games. That's a valid concern, but they would have been better off selling a box that was not usable as a PC.

What they're worried about is a boot disk.

I mean, if I have to buy an X-box and open it, buy a chip and solder it in, that's a pain in the ass.

But, if I can download a 6 meg ISO and boot off of it onto linux or to play burned games, then I'll jump on in a heartbeat.

Microsoft figures (and they're probably right) that, if it can be modded, and then someone finds that they can use the 007 trick, it's possible that someone could find a bootdisk trick.

Re:Respect ?

[SoSueMe]

but MS... well, let's just say that the odds of the XBox making them money is quite low.

You are right.
Microsoft doesn't have to make more money. In fact, they are trying to figure out what to do with the money they've got.

Re:Respect ?

[Jetifi]

IIRC Nintento makes a profit on every GC sold? They're not that hi-spec. Feel free to correct me if that's not the case.

Re:Respect ?

[Simon Brooke]

does anyone seriously believe that enough people are going to buy an XBox and use it for non gaming purposes to actually hurt M$ financially ?.

Possibly.

Remember that XBox security is in effect a precursor to MS' proposed new 'trusted platform', the next generation of their OS and of their business model. If what is happening here is that we are developing a cadre of skilled reverse engineers who can find their way around and through MS' security schemes, then they will not be able to lock down the next generation of PCs as they propose, and it's essentially game over for them.

Remember, any business, however big, can come crashing down if the economic niche that it filled disappears. Linux will take away the market for closed proprietary operating systems. Other initiatives, mostly Open Source ones, will erode the market for closed proprietary office software. The same dynamics which made Microsoft dominant in the first place can quickly make them irrelevent.

Microsoft know this and their current strategy to avoid it is to evolve a technical and legal wall around the hardware, so that it's impossible to get 'untrusted' (read 'open source') software to run on it. The XBox hackers, by demonstrating to the world that this does not work, are undermining Microsoft's new fortress. And it's particularly delightful that Microsoft gave them the tools to do it.

Go XBox hackers! Develop and hone your skills. The real test is yet to come, but I have faith in you...

Re:Respect ?

[eniu!uine]

Microsoft may have made a mistake by boxing up a standard PC that can run off-the-shelf software, selling it below cost, and then trying to lock it up with a flimsy electronic scheme. I realize that they were trying to leverage PC game software for their platform, but there are downsides to that approach that they have to live with now.

In order to make a non-PC x-box, Microsoft would have had to actually invent something. They just couldn't let that happen.

Re:Respect ?

[hayden]

And having a complete monopoly on household gaming would almost certainly be worth that kind of investment....

The problem with that line of reasoning is that it assumes you can have vendor tie-in in the home console market. Unlike the desktop OS market, there just isn't the control there. Just because Foowidgets Great Adventure is a huge seller for the x-box one doesn't automatically preclude the sequal from being a huge seller on another plateform.

And despite what the fanboys rave on about, there really isn't that much difference between consoles of the same generation. So one can do another couple of thousand polygons per second. That doesn't make a rats arse of difference when you are racing your mates at Mario cart or kicking the crap out of them in a fighting game.

Re:Respect ?

[jrockway]

How about I make a blade that has some padded tape on the non-razor side? Stick the blade on and the tape molds itself to the shape of the patented interface. Uh oh! IP violation... and by a piece of tape. That will be a fun court battle.

Anyway, I'm way off topic here. Modding razors and modding the Xbox are two different issues, legally and physically. The xbox is a PC that will only run signed code. Well, stick in a modchip and it can run linux. How can that be illegal? You own the modchip (and the IP contained within is yours / you have a license), you own the xbox; you have no intention of using MS's IP. Again, how is that illegal!? You're doing the stuff to something you own.

And now, I know, somebody will compare this to modding a car and making the emissions bad or whatever. They'll say that that mod makes the car illegal. Well, I'll tell them that the Xbox is not a car, it's a game console. It won't hurt any human life to mod it and run linux OR EVEN PIRATED GAMES. I'm mostly ranting and not making a point so i'll say this: if you own something, you can do whatever the hell you want with it. Ignore the government. If they don't know you're doing it, it's not illegal. "Lawmakers" may make it illegal, but I believe that courts will strike the law down. Making a font that boots linux is free speech.

Re:Respect ?

[lsdino]

Anyway, I'm way off topic here. Modding razors and modding the Xbox are two different issues, legally and physically. The xbox is a PC that will only run signed code. Well, stick in a modchip and it can run linux. How can that be illegal? You own the modchip (and the IP contained within is yours / you have a license), you own the xbox; you have no intention of using MS's IP. Again, how is that illegal!? You're doing the stuff to something you own.

I may be out of date, but I thought the majority of mod chips contained the XBox (or PS/2) BIOS code in the chip - only hacked. Therefore it's been a copyright violation to distribute the mod chips, and that's how the IP gets violated. It's a similar situation to IBM's BIOS needing to be cloned (as in reverse engineered, documented, and rewritten) before "IBM PC compatible" computers could come about.

Now, IANAL, it seems otherwise it's perfectly legal to hack the XBox. Of course, the DMCA may have something different to say, but I don't think Microsoft has made any DMCA claims against XBox hackers (again, I may be out of date).

(and I'd say you were pretty on topic - I was much more off topic on my previous post)

Re:Respect ?

[bockman]

this is the same business model that gaming systems have used for years.

it makes perfect sense for video games...

But there are other ways to implement the same model, ways that hare more respectful for the customers, because they are told the whole of it, not just treated like buying robots.

For instance, they could sell the game machine at its right price and offer to its buyers a huge discount on the first 5 (or 10) games they choose to buy. The offer would (probably) have the same appeal and would generate the same revenue than the sell_the_box_cheap_and_the_games_overpriced approach, _but_ would be more honest to the customers.

Re:Respect ?

[anethema]

Well, on printers, if you buy new cartidges every time instead of buying a big refill kit and doing it yourself, you diserve to get screwed.

Hell, here in bc, canada, we have a place called 'island inkjet'

You just bring in your cartridges, they charge you a couple bucks..fill the cartriges, and you just saved 40 buck per cartrige (canadian).

If you cartrige breaks or is for some reason unable to be recharged (altho I havent run into any where this is the case) then you get screwed I suppose....but there isnt much reason for it in the printer area.

And this, folks, is why i like this business model for the printers :)

Re:Respect ?

[thynk]

The system doesn't suck at all. Xbox = better quality games, PS2 = More games at almost as good quality.

The market share they need to look at is younger kids. I picked up a used N64 the other week, and not a single game on the Xbox or PSone have been played since we got it. Kids don't care about how cool the graphics are, they simply care if it's fun. I still enjoy the old NES games and the old C64 games.

Re:Respect ?

[BigDish]

This isn't practicle for a few reasons. Namely, heat dissipation. Even potting the board in epoxy wouldn't stop hackers-with a little heat, epoxy can be removed relatively easily.

Re:Respect ?

[gilesjuk]

As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, you can't do this on newer printers, they have chips that stop the printer printing when the cartridge gets low on ink.

Re:Respect ?

[theefer]

Yes I was surprised to be modded Funny for that, it was not intended as a joke ... :)

Re:Respect ?

[ePhil_One]

Sure printers are affordable, but heavy users of inkjets would sooner pay more for the printer and have cheaper ink.

This is nonsense. There are tons of inkjet options out there,and even more when the customer takes off the inkjet blinders and looks at other technologies like laserjets, solid ink, etc. Anybody notice very few offices use Inkjets? Its because the the know (or the Xerox/Copy machine/Printer Salesman showed them) the cost per page numbers.

I've sold printers to consumers before. A good chunk (70% or so) can't look much beyond basic price and brand comparisons. The ad says I can get a printer for $49! where is it!

But feel free to prove me wrong. Start "Mike High Priced Printers and Dirt cheap Ink!" and put the big guys out of business. I'm sure the'll even sell you the high tech print heads, etc. OEM. Without warranty, of course, as your customers experiment with filling the inkwells with colored urine samples. I'm sure you'll have the last laugh as you drive them out of buisness.

Re:Respect ?

[dook43]

Mechassault is published by Microsoft. Is it developed by them? Or one of their subsidiaries? You should know your facts before "betting your money". Are all XBOX savegames hackable in this fashion? No? Then it's probably not an XDK issue.

heh

[Wibla]

"We are also very committed to respect for others' intellectual property and we request the same respect applied to our innovations.'" Yea, we've seen some _Very_ good examples of that in the past...

Re:heh

[capnjack41]

What's their innovation? Letting you play games on PC's, only with really really big controllers?

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

"We are also very committed to respect for others' intellectual property and we request the same respect applied to our innovations.'" Yea, we've seen some _Very_ good examples of that in the past...

I am wondering what they think is so innovative about the X-Box? It's just a PC with chip developed by Intel, a motherboard and graphics processor developed by NVidia and piss-poor security developed by god-knows-who. It is the cheapest possible way for them to get into the market. I honestly can't think of a single thing they've done that could be labelled "innovative".

Re:heh

[mrseigen]

No, buying FASA Interactive and driving them into the ground. I am still waiting for a Shadowrun game.

Re:heh

[shadowbearer]

"I honestly can't think of a single thing they've done that could be labelled "innovative"."

Yeah, they didn't put MS Bob or Clippy on the Xbox...

SB

Re:heh

[Kierthos]

"It looks like you are trying to install a modchip? Can I help in any way?" - Clippy, after a Linux hack.

Kierthos

Re:heh

[shadowbearer]

Heheh. Clippy with a soldering iron.

I'd run. Very fast :-)

SB

Re:heh

[Oloryn]

I honestly can't think of a single thing they've done that could be labelled "innovative".

They've taken this technology made by others, and incorporated it into a new product. In marketing-speak, that's 'innovating' (remember that Microsoft is really more of a marketing company than a technology company, and as far as Marketing is concerned, technology doesn't really exist until it has been incorporated into a sellable product). It's not innovation in the ordinary or technical sense of the word, but marketing people don't care about that. They love being able to make a statement that they know is only true in the limited sense they mean by it, all the while knowing that most people are going to take it in a different (and more marketable) sense.

Re:heh

[tundog]

Don't be fooled by the FUD, the XBox is VERY interesting to the security community at large. This is the first time a 'DRM' system has been sold to consumers on a largse scale using a standard x86 architecture. It is a case study in how to lock down a general purpose computer in order to provide a platform for distribution of copyrighted material.

Re:heh

[thynk]

What's their innovation?

How about being the first game console to be made from PC parts running an X86 code?

Re:heh

[tomzyk]

I honestly can't think of a single thing they've done that could be labelled "innovative".

How about this: selling your product at a loss and hoping to make money off of it... while you have a large community of programmers/hackers worldwide that hate everything you stand for and will do anything and everything they can possibly do to make sure your business fails.

I'd call that ... oh wait, that's just dumb.
Nevermind.

(yeah yeah, "MS Bashing -1")

long article?

[squarefish]

you obviously don't read the NY Times very often. many of their articles are 5-6 times that length or longer.

Not Completely Valid

[grimani]

I think the P3-733 for 180 comparison is not completely valid.

The XBox is not really extensible like a regular PC. How many PCI slots do you have? How many USB/FireWire ports? As a console, many 'regular' features unnecessary for a console that we take for granted are not included.

This kinda limits the usefulness of the XBox.

It's kinda like those deals on the Dell server machines you can get with some creative configuration and coupon applications.

Sure, you get for $300 a full powered server machine...but it has no AGP slot. So much for gaming...

Are there updated drivers for the XBox video card available at all?

Re:Not Completely Valid

[jakupovic]

Lest you forget ...

"Some advocates, however, say that while software piracy is illegal and morally offensive, the mere act of modifying hardware should not be illegal. "The most important dimension of this debate from our view is that people should have the right to tinker with the stuff that they own, " said Fred von Lohmann, senior staff attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a civil-liberties group in San Francisco."

Re:Not Completely Valid

[dackroyd]

How many USB/FireWire ports?

Four USB ports. The Xbox controllers are USB devices, just with a different connector. The Xbox-Linux people sell usb-Xbox convertors.

Sure, you get for $300 a full powered server machine...but it has no AGP slot. So much for gaming...

Ex-squeeze me ? It's an nForce motherboard with a builtin GeForce 3 type card (Geforce 3 + a bit extra). So yeah you can't upgrade it to the latest card, but it's more powerful for graphics than 80% of the PCs in use for games today.

Are there updated drivers for the XBox video card available at all?

I believe the standard nVidia linux drivers just work on the XBox.

Re:Not Completely Valid

[rnd()]

I think it's silly to expect a $300 PC that is being marketed as a server to be designed for a top-end video subsystem.

Re:Not Completely Valid

[NanoGator]

"Sure, you get for $300 a full powered server machine...but it has no AGP slot. So much for gaming..."

This problem is not solved on the XBOX. You want games on the XBOX? Buy XBOX games, no need to mod it.

Also, you only get NTSC out on it. No VGA out. So forget doing anything command-line based.

Honestly, I don't understand the appeal of the XBOX for hacking. I have a feeling that if you removed the "it screws MS!" factor of it, then the only people left who'd want to hack it would be people who want to run MAME. I don't have a problem with that, but technically a lot of the people there would be doing so illegally.

Re:Not Completely Valid

[NanoGator]

"I think it's silly to expect a $300 PC that is being marketed as a server to be designed for a top-end video subsystem."

I think it's silly to expect that anybody's going to hack the XBOX and do anything interesting with that graphics sub-system. You expectin a flurry of indie games or something?

Re:Not Completely Valid

[happystink]

What deals on Dell servers and coupons are those? Sounds interesting!

Re:Not Completely Valid

[Klowner]

I may stand corrected, but I think the XBox's controller ports are USB, except with silly plugs.

Re:Not Completely Valid

[rnd()]

Absolutely not. I agree with you, modding an X-Box is quite silly as well.

Re:Not Completely Valid

[thgreatoz]

Not only MAME...I've got an SNES archive on there. Every game ever made, all in one location,no cart swapping required.

*awaits Nintendo's lawyers*

Re:Not Completely Valid

[Babbster]

I agree with you mostly and think that buying an Xbox for Linux is silly - for example Fry's had a $200 Linux PC in last week's ad that blows away the Xbox in terms of processing power, storage space and expandability. But then there's always the "but": But, you aren't stuck with NTSC if you can output in one of the supported HDTV modes (probably 720p) from Linux. The problem then, of course, is that you would then have to either buy the component connection kit and have an HDTV or connect an outboard transcoder to convert to VGA, OR buy one of the Xbox VGA adapters that are being made...any way you slice it, of course, you're spending a lot more for less functionality.

Re:Not Completely Valid

[NanoGator]

"The problem then, of course, is that you would then have to either buy the component connection kit and have an HDTV or connect an outboard transcoder to convert to VGA, OR buy one of the Xbox VGA adapters that are being made...any way you slice it, of course, you're spending a lot more for less functionality. "

I'm having a seriously difficult time imagining somebody with an HDTV setup today who wants a bargain basement pc.

Re:Not Completely Valid

[Babbster]

Agreed again. Then again, I have serious difficulty imagining someone with a computer capable of browsing the web pining after one. Yet, here we are reading comment after comment from people who think it's not only "neat" to set up an Xbox/Linux box (which it is) but somehow a cost-effective solution to some problem they think they have (which is at best questionable).

Re:Not Completely Valid

[NanoGator]

Yeah I think we're on the same page here. :)

fairly powerful computer for less than $200

[period3]

Here

Re:fairly powerful computer for less than $200

[garcia]

Don't troll.

The fact of the matter is that an XBox has
TV-out and excellent graphics and sound cababilities.

Walmart machines do not.

People want to use the XBox as a multimedia center for their living room. A quote from another article related to this one (I refuse to read NYT) said something along the lines of, "the XBox looks excellent next to a TV in your living room, it's more silent than a typical PC, and its small form-factor make it perfect. Not exactly what Bill Gates had envisioned."

Re:fairly powerful computer for less than $200

[dcstimm]

but that doesnt have a geforce 3 in it... and its ugly, a xbox computer is pretty damn sexy if you ask me...

Re:fairly powerful computer for less than $200

[geeber]

Does anybody else find it funny that the first sentence in the description of the computer, sold on Walmart's website, reads

"Note: Linux operating systems may not be compatible with some dial-up Internet services, such as AOL or Wal-Mart Connect."

Hilarious! You can't by a Walmart computer over the internet with a Walmart computer.

Re:fairly powerful computer for less than $200

[Foogle]

Sure you can. You just can't connect to the Internet using Walmart's ISP.

Re:fairly powerful computer for less than $200

[Ian Jefferies]

People want to use the XBox as a multimedia center for their living room. A quote from another article related to this one (I refuse to read NYT) said something along the lines of, "the XBox looks excellent next to a TV in your living room, it's more silent than a typical PC, and its small form-factor make it perfect. Not exactly what Bill Gates had envisioned."

The quote was also in the NYT article, it's from Michael Steil of the Xbox Linux Project.

That the XBox has a small form factor, looks good next to a TV, and doesn't make much noise, is exactly what you want from a device you're going to put near a television. I'm sure Bill Gates saw the device exactly that way.

What wasn't envisioned was the Linux part.

Ian.

Re:fairly powerful computer for less than $200

[geeber]

Parent doesn't strike me as a troll. The fact is that the XBox is being described as a computer in the NYT times article. A computer is a general purpose machine. In terms of general purpose use, the Walmart machine is propably a better computer, not to mention more powerful (twice as much RAM, heftier CPU). Since the article claims that the XBox is cheapier than a PC, this seems like a statement that bears correcting.

Re:fairly powerful computer for less than $200

[MsGeek]

No, but there are 3D drivers, very good ones, in fact, that will work on the PCI GeForce4 MX cards that you can use to drive a stake through the Vampire Video the WalMart (and also the Fried Great Quality machine and the others in the same ballpark) provides.

The PCI bus doesn't give you as much bandwidth as an AGP slot will, but you can get enough to make you happy and allow you to merrily play Unreal Tournament (original recipe) without breaking a sweat.

This also applies to some variants on the EPIA platform. A Cubid-style case will prevent you from putting in a decent vid card, but the more roomy EPIA boxen are fine. You will have to look for a less power-hungry card than, say a GeForce Ti, but you can do it.

Re:fairly powerful computer for less than $200

[McDutchie]

Don't troll.

Does this strike anyone else as ironic?

No.

*sigh*

[tom taylor]

Where else can you get a PIII-733 with graphics and audio for $180?

Oh man, not another thread where we have to go through and total up the components until someone believes that PC prices have actually dropped since the X-box came out! Come on, someone get the calculator out :)

Re:*sigh*

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, build me a $180 computer.

It must have at least:
733MHz PIII
5.1 channel surround sound audio
GeForce 3 graphics
64 MB RAM
8/10 GB HD
4 USB ports
TV out and support for HDTV
Ethernet jack
DVD-ROM
1 controller
2 games

I'll ignore the other parts of a computer (such as the power supply) as I'm sure you'll factor those into your equation.

Now, assuming you can find a machine with all of those components for $180, let me know how well it plays games, DVDs, etc. Will it play games with the graphical qualities of Halo, JSRF, or Brute Force? Will I be able to hear such games in 5.1 surround sound? Can I watch DVDs on this machine with my HDTV (after some hacks to enable progressive-scan)? Will the machine be able to pump out DTS surround signals to my reciever like the XBOX can?

I'm not saying you can't build a decent media computer for cheap, but I hardly think you should discount the power and capabilities (both before and after hacking) of the XBOX.

Re:*sigh*

[FunkyELF]

Agreed...I love my xbox. I love streaming divx from my PC to my xbox in the living room. I love playing emulators on it. I love borrowing games for 10 minutes and ripping them to the 120Gb HD that I put in it. I love how jealous everyone is of my xbox. I think its an awesome bargan for all of that, but everyone is saying $180 without including the price of the modchipo. Also....I don't think this graphics issue is completely valid for one reason alone. Yes is has awesome graphics on the TV but you have to realize that it is running at TV resolution. I'm sure my Geforce2 Ultra would kick its ass in comparable games if I ran it at 640x480 (which AFAIK is more than TV)

Re:*sigh*

[NanoGator]

"ill it play games with the graphical qualities of Halo, JSRF, or Brute Force?"

Does the quality of Halo, JSRF, or Brute Force suddenly increase when you mod the thing?

While we're on the topic of graphical quality, I don't remember 733 machines with 64 meg of RAM having the video quality of Halo. Face facts, the XBOX isn't going to be much of a gaming machine after being hacked. And without games to play on it, the graphic system of it isn't all that useful.

Sorry, not sold. This quest to hack the XBOX is going to land people in jail as well as validate to the industry that these type of mechanisms have to be in place.

Re:*sigh*

[dboyles]

Can I watch DVDs on this machine with my HDTV (after some hacks to enable progressive-scan)?

This isn't exactly relevant to your post, but the Xbox is horrible when it comes to DVD playback. I have a 3+ year old Pioneer DV-525 that blows it away. I find the picture that the Xbox produces, even with component video and nice cables, is unacceptable for anything other than casual viewing. If I want to actually sit down and watch a movie, I'll use the DVD player. The Xbox is so bad, I considered returning the $30 DVD playback kit.

That said, I love playing games on my Xbox, and I think it's reasonably priced for what you get.

Re:*sigh*

[Xerxes of Zealot]

Sure, I could build you all of that for free actually. Hell, I get a top of the line computer (It'll be outdated in 2 years but thats not the point) for free. It's called theft, what you are doing is very similar. The XBox standalone cannot play DVDs without the remote, this is only one example.

Dont get me wrong, I'm all about the search for knowledge (or whatever the current excuse for hacking the XBox is now) but hacking is still against the law. There's a reason the XBox can't play DVDs, its some licensing bullshit but it's still a reason. Theft and hacking are different things, but at the same time they share a very similarities...

Re:*sigh*

[jo42]

Locally, I'd start here: www.factorydirect.ca, www.cwo.ca and www.pcoutlet.com.

We're not hacking.

[mikeophile]

We're embracing and extending the XBox.

Re:We're not hacking.

[borgdows]

When are you planning to launch the 3rd phase (eliminate) ? =)

Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

..where stealing is ok as long as it's not GPL'd.

Huh?

[Realistic_Dragon]

I thought that the XBox selling costs covered variable costs (ie the parts in the box), and so even if it doesn't entirley cover the fixed costs (ie the factory) at low volume it will do eventually when enough units have been shipped has been reached?

If this is the case then XBox Linux helps MS by raising the volumes (not to mention giving them better sales figures to lie about to their game makers).

If of course they are selling below variable cost then well, count me in for loads of the things - I have no problems attempting to bankrupt the swine who injected cash into SCO to prolong their litigation.

Re:Huh?

[provolt]

If of course they are selling below variable cost then well, count me in for loads of the things - I have no problems attempting to bankrupt the swine who injected cash into SCO to prolong their litigation.

While I agree that MS isn't my favorite company, I'm pretty sure that them selling a couple thousand XBoxes at a loss is not going to bankrupt Microsoft. The fact is most people buy games and MS makes some money. A bunch of people running linux on XBox won't change those numbers. If it was going to, they would raise the price or stop seling the XBox. You can say whatever you want to about MS (I think they suck), but they understand business and they know how to make a buck.

Re:Huh?

[UnknowingFool]

It was my impression that the XBox costs MS $320 to produce (all costs). I could find no breakdown of the costs, but at any rate, MS has been trying to lower the manufacturing costs by selecting a second manufacturer. The article would make it seem that the factory costs were variable if they went to a second manufacturer.

As for parts costs, MS does have some leeway with their suppliers. As CPU prices drop, MS could possibly negotiate for a better price from Intel, but they've already pissed off nVidia.

You are right that more XBox sales would help MS with bragging rights with game makers. The latest MS financial reports probably have undermined any clout that might have had. The XBox division lost $180 million last year and $348 million this year. Game makers know that MS needs them and not the other way around. What I don't know is what kind of terms MS gives game makers. It can't be all that lucrative as hordes of game makers have not released games for XBox. At E3, MS announced many new titles but most of them were from companies owned by MS.

Bottom line is that MS cannot continue on it's course without lossing a ton of money. Hacking the XBox only hurts their bottom line further.

Re:Huh?

[spectecjr]

I have no problems attempting to bankrupt the swine who injected cash into SCO to prolong their litigation.

That's all well and good.... but what do Sun Microsystems have to do with this story?

Simon

Re:Huh?

[Kwil]

Okay.. you got the PIII part for $120..

Now let's add the graphics and audio. Please remember that's 5.1 audio and the graphics ability is capable of micro-polygon support in the range of 300 M/sec, with TV-out.

Then lets add the (admittedly small amount of) RAM. We'll need at least 6.4G/sec bandwidth for that RAM, btw.
Now add the 4x DVD
Then the 8G hard drive
Then the game-controller
Then the power supply
Then the network card
Then the case

And do this all in a format that I can sit next to my TV, won't look like ass, and doesn't make a load of noise.

Then, just for shits and giggles, why don't you throw in two games?

When you've done all that for $180 or less, give me a call.

Re:Huh?

[menacing_cheese]

I don't think MS ever really thought they were going to make a lot of money on their current system. I believe their plan all along was to just get a footing in the console market so that they could have a chance at making money with their next offering. Whether that actually happens or not who knows? But this idea that MS can't afford to keep losing money on Xbox is a little ridiculous. They have $40 billion in cash. With that kind of liquidity they can afford to keep losing money for a very long time. Mind you, I don't necessarily think that is a good idea.

What about...

[Anonymous Coward]

Digital Millennium Copyright Act
An anagram poem:

Mightily decompiling lunatic rat.
Glumly patching idiotic terminal.
Multiplying arithmetical coding.
Daintily compute thrilling magic.
Optimum gigacycle and thrill in it.
Daringly compiling ultimate itch.

Mightily pirating demonical cult.
Thrillingly upcoming, attic media.
Mightily cling up-to-date criminal.
Implicitly trading touching lame.
I'm clean-cut old pirating mightily.
Gotcha! untimely, implicit darling.

Mightily dreaming political cunt.
Computing idling calamity Hitler.
Mightily culminating idle captor.
Mightily calming lupine dictator.
I'm ugly might and political cretin.
Implicitly gloating crude hit man.

I am the putrid, comically glinting.
Madly cut-price, limiting loathing.
Coldly humiliating grim pittance.

Mightily menacing political turd.
Ugly, lethargic, implicit dominant.
I'm ugly might and political cretin.
Ultimate, glinting lady microchip.
Graphically document limiting it.
Ultimately dangling microchip it.

Creativity?

[DragonMagic]

So...

They're all for innovation and creativity... but you should respect their own...

Yet you can't innovate or create new items with their hardware that you PURCHASE, because they won't respect YOUR innovation and creativity.

Sounds like they want their cake and to eat it, too.

Re:Creativity?

[mrBoB]

No no... remember that EULA you read and agreed to before opening the box? They are just licensing the right to _use_ the Xbox to you! BAH.

Re:Creativity?

[jrockway]

No, I don't. Post it here so I can see it.

Re:Creativity?

[mrBoB]

You making a funny? Cuase I was trying. It's kinda hard to get intent through text, eh?

only compelling reason to buy one...

[another misanthrope]

...for me is the the features that the hacks offer. I don't own one but I've been looking into the hacks after learning about them. Streaming video and music over ethernet, dvds, vcds, not to mention the standard xbox offerings. I still haven't made the plunge but I'm strongly considering cleaning some space for one next to the big TV. Now if MS looses money on me (I will buy games, but probably only a few) that just makes it even sweeter!

Re:I would read it..

[billbaggins]

If I'm not greatly mistaken, that's what the (Google) link is for. Try it out, see if it works.

I get it now.

[Rosyna]

Microsoft is pressing charges against people that blatently point out their flawed business plan. When other companies sell "at a loss" it does mean they actually lose money, just that they don't get enough profit from it to make it worth it.

And you know because it's MS they've never be able to fix all the exploitable (security) holes in the XBox.

Limited RAM

[gilesjuk]

64MB is a problem too, yes you can solder on another 64MB if you're skilled enough. But that's a lowly amount of RAM by modern standards.

Re:Limited RAM

[Namaseit]

Well you see that might be a problem but its called "swap" space in linux, or VM(Virtual Memory). So 64 megs of ram is not a problem. Hell it wouldnt be a problem if it was 32 megs.

Umm @ Wal-Mart?

[nurb432]

You can get a whitebox for $200... Perhaps not *quite* as powerful, but close enough.. AND you get ports.. and no silly mods needed to run what ever you want..

whatever, it is for the ability to say you did it

[AssFace]

To claim that they are doing it for price is a bit off. The people do it so that they can feel in some way they have gotten away with something. They are told that they shouldn't, then they do, and they gain bragging rights. They gain a tiny amount of control in a world that has little of it for the average perosn - they are briefly a David to the Goliath of Microsoft. The money isn't an issue.

True, to get a PIII 733, a NVidia graphics card, etc etc for $200 is a good deal at first glance I suppose.
Were I in the States, I could go to pricewatch and order me up some parts.
PIII 733 by itself is $67, you figure you still need a motherboard and case, that is easily another $80 at least, and then you need the graphics card...

But looking again, you can get a PIII 1G and the motherboard as a combo for $65.
You can get a case for about $30. You can get the video card for about $80.
So a better system for cheaper... and the thing is, that is only if you are still looking for the PIII, if you stepped up to an Athlon XP, you would then get far more processing power, and you would only be spending a little more.

Granted, that doesn't help you if you have no clue how to put together a system, and you only have $200... but I have a feeling the type of person willing to hack a perfectly good game system, and then run Linux on it, is going to be able to put together a computer system on their own.

In the end, I think the monetary reasons for hacking are non-existant, aside from those bad at math.
It is the fun factor and the thumb-your-nose-at-MS factor.

Why hassle with an XBox?

[Greyjack]

If all you want is a cheap PC, just get this instead. Useable PC for $200, including keyboard, mouse, & speakers. Hell, they'll even ship you one with Linux (Lycoris) on it for the same price.

Granted, it doesn't quite have the same graphics horsepower, but hey, it's cheap!

Re:Why hassle with an XBox?

[Greyjack]

Yes folks thats right, some people actually have their Xbox's somewhere OTHER than their computer desk!

Sure, if you're talking home entertainment PC, the Walmart $200 cheapies aren't up to snuff. My only point was that the Walmart boxes are great if your sole criteria is "cheapest useable PC available"; wasn't pretending to claim that they're ready for your home theater.

Reality Czech

[Asprin]

They are requesting respect for their innovations, huh?

IIRC, the whole idea was to take existing off-the-shelf PC parts that used an existing PC architecture and put them in a box that could easily mass produced with a very short time-to-market and an OS that allowed existing developers to leverage their existing skills.

Hmmm... That sounds familiar... now where have I heard that before?

Oh, of course! That's what made BG a gazillionaire in the first place!

I'm not against MS wanting to control a closed platform they developed, but I am insulted by their insistance that this is an IP issue. It's not an IP issue, it's a PP (physical property) issue. If they don't like people voiding the warranties on their hardware, they should have made their CDs spin backwards like Nintendo.

Re:Reality Czech

[jellomizer]

Well what I think that Microsoft doesn't get. That other people in retail do get. People want to find new ways of using any product beyond the ordinary specifications. This why people use screwdrivers as a file, or as a lever, although this may break the screwdriver, people will try it anyways because they dont want to pay for an other tool for a small job. Computer and software are tools just like a screwdriver. This fact is why a lot of people are stopping from using Microsoft products and switching to Linux, It is cheaper and you can do things beyond the normal spec. This is true with the X box and with Windows. Sometimes you will have to let your customers make do stupid things with your product in the chance they can do something ingenious.

Re:Reality Czech

[Asprin]

...and best of all, with Linux, you can TRY IT OUT AND SEE IF IT'S GOING TO WORK BEFORE YOU LAY OUT THE CASH for the fully developed system!

Re:Reality Czech

[IIRCAFAIKIANAL]

If they don't like people voiding the warranties on their hardware, they should have made their CDs spin backwards like Nintendo.

Actually, it spins from the outside of the disc to the inside, instead of from the inside to the outside.

That said, you are absolutely correct. They were so concerned about leveraging existing developer skills and saving on the initial hardware design costs, but what they ended up with was an easily hackable, big, ugly, noisy console.

At least Nintendo knows what a console is all about (even if they are being morons wrt online gaming).

Re:Reality Czech

[rnd()]

You are Insulted? How would you feel if you agreed to let a friend borrow your car and he decided that the fact that it was in his posession allowed him to sell it to the highest bidder or destroy it? Sure, he would be in posession of it, but that does not grant him the right to do with it whatever he chooses.

Re:Reality Czech

[Jetifi]

I don't know if you're trolling, but the situation you just described (a ''friend'' selling a borrowed car) is completely different to you modding hardware you paid for.

The Xbox is not software, it requires no license, and you're free to use it, mod it, paint it, burn it, toss it off a cliff, whatever, there's not a damn thing Microsoft should be able to do about you tinkering with something you own.

Re:Reality Czech

[messiertom]

Well, hoe would you feel if you agreed to let a friend borrow your car, but you charged him more than what it cost you to buy it, and then he resold it or modified it to his liking? Pretty damn good, I'll bet - you just made a profit.

Re:Reality Czech

[rjkimble]

Huh? We're not talking about borrowing a car here. We're talking about buying a car. If your friend buys your car, he can do anything he wants to with it.

Also, this is Microsoft we're talking about. We're not talking about friends here.

Re:Reality Czech

[Asprin]

Whaaaa?

So you argument is that since they are taking a loss on the hardware, it still belongs to them and therefore they can tell me what to do with it?

That's pretty lame-ass weak.

If my friend sold my car which was LENT to him, he would be wrong because the is not his property, since lending != transferring ownership. If he wants to pay my price to buy it, I could sell it to him and then he could do whatever he wanted with it. Otherwise, what he's doing *IS* stealing because the car is mine in the very well-vetted AND traditional ownership-of-property sense.

Further, as long as I'm putting up the cash for the Xbox and I get a bill of sale receipt, it's mine, and I can do what I want with it. In my opinion, this includes reselling, disassembling and hacking it. (Yes, I think the DMCA is mostly a crock of overindulgent, SIG stinkycheese, but no I'm not sure I agree that after hacking the XBox, you should be able to provide others the ability to circumvent MS's copyrights, but THAT'S NOT WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE! We're talking about XBox owners hacking their XBoxen to run Linux, not a pirated copy of Halo!)

If Microsoft doesn't approve, then they should reconsider their business model. There is a VERY REAL LEGAL difference between SELLING XBoxen at WalMart and RENTING them like the cable company does with my cable box, where cracking the seal on the case voids my rental agreement and cancels my account.

I think MS should buy out that company working on that Phantom thingy. That would give them what they actually want.

Re:Reality Czech

[rnd()]

What if there is a EULA that you agree to when you open the plastic case?

Re:Reality Czech

[dmaxwell]

What if there is a EULA that you agree to when you open the plastic case?

Nonsense. I notice that the business conservatives here are all about respecting property rights UNLESS it is an individual's property rights. EULAs are absolute horseshit. I sign a notarized contract that's one thing. If I see a little piece of paper fall out of a used X-Box I bought off someone, I'm going to use it to make an airplane or light a fireplace. Actually, that goes double for something I pay real money for in a retail establishment.

That little piece of plastic and cheap electronics is my physical property. If I hack it to run Linux, that is none of Bill Gates' business. If he thinks its his business he can blow me. Running Linux has nothing to do with pirating games or cheating on X-Box Live. It does screw with MS' business model but I couldn't give a flying fuck. That's their problem. The phrase "business model" is not a holy sacrement. It entitles to them to nothing.

MS put out a PC with an integrated motherboard and lousy lockout protection and then sold it at a loss. None of this obligates an X-Box owner to anything except not to steal software or cheat on-line.

Re:Reality Czech

[Jetifi]

EULA's are for software, not hardware.

This is because every copy of a program that is made in the course of installing and running it (e.g. the installed copy on your hard-drive, the copy in memory, the bits of it in your swap, etc.) is ''actionable'' under copyright law, i.e. you can be sued for making those copies.

This is the main principle and reason behind the ''license agreements'', which is MS allowing you to make a copy by installing it in exchange for agreeing not to sue, assume fitness or merchantability for a particular purchase, etc. etc. etc.

You can't attach an EULA to hardware. The last people to try that were Digital:Convergence with :CueCat, and they were (rightfully) made a laughing stock of.

Re:Reality Czech

[UncleFluffy]

This is because every copy of a program that is made in the course of installing and running it (e.g. the installed copy on your hard-drive, the copy in memory, the bits of it in your swap, etc.) is ''actionable'' under copyright law, i.e. you can be sued for making those copies.

Really ?

Re:Reality Czech

[Beliskner]

If I see a little piece of paper fall out of a used X-Box I bought off someone, I'm going to use it to make an airplane or light a fireplace. Actually, that goes double for something I pay real money for in a retail establishment

YESSS! Right On! The people that buy an XBox/software are in the ghetto, I'd love to see Bill Gates walk around the ghetto with crack dealers and bang on a crakhouses' doors and say, "Hey! I think you're running unlicensed software." Bill Gates better wear a bullet proof jacket and have some rottweillers, we should call him "Bill da Puff Daddy Coolio motherfu**er"

Whenever a Micro$oft ad comes on TV I should bill Micro$oft, because I spent 30 seconds of MY TIME watching their ad.

Microsoft at it again.

[Penguin2212]

"Microsoft is a company passionate about innovation and creativity. We are also very committed to respect for others' intellectual property and we request the same respect applied to our innovations."

My response to quote, "How long have you worked for Microsoft?"

Form Factor

[nurb432]

its a bit more then 'because I can'.

The Xbox is designed to 'fit in' to the entertainment center..

Getting a pc small enough to 'fit in' would cost more then the average white box..

And if its JUST for use for video/dvd.. why bother with building something that sticks out like a sore thumb anyway

Re:Form Factor

[AssFace]

There are plenty of form factor cases out there that are half the size of an XBox - and they will hold a P4 and more.

It isn't like the XBox burns DVDs - the players are cheap these days.

The money aspect just doesn't cut it in the end - if you wanted a faster, better, small, DVD playing Linux box, then get the Ice Cube off of thinkgeek, throw in an HD, your DVD player, and whatever graphics card you want.

Sure instead of $180 it will cose about $380 - but it will be newer and faster.

If you are using the agrument that the XBox looks better, then your design sense is interesting at best.

Re:Form Factor

[nurb432]

My premise was cost.. i know you can get small PCs.. Just not at the cost of a prebuilt Xbox.

Hell you can get them even smaller if you want to pay the price..

And why do you need 'better,faster' if what you have does the job? In my cast it would just be to play audio and movies.. i could care less about gaming.

For this reason ive not got one yet.. what i have now works.. when it breaks ill get something else..

Not pushing microsoft stuff, but it is cheap, compact.. and does the job..

Re:Form Factor

[Jeff DeMaagd]

But XBox isn't a quality DVD player either. But then, there aren't any really good DVD player programs as they only read the DVD's progressive flags, they just weave or bob. Weave often gives you combing, and bob simply blurs the image on a bad flag or a video sourced image.

For $200 one can get a real DVD player that reads 3:2 pull-down cadence and fixes it in real time. Or for $80 you can get a real interlaced DVD player that can at least read problem discs better and have better MPEG decoding.

I did build an HTPC too. There are a lot of good looking computer cases, some are even indistinguishable from standard consumer A/V hardware. Sure, they cost more, but it's well worth it. Besides, I don't like the XBox appearance, but the same goes for most consoles, except maybe the upcomming "PSX".

Re:whatever, it is for the ability to say you did

[bucky0]

That situation sounds good, except you need to throw in a DVD drive and a harddrive. Also, whatever motherboard you have is going to be pretty old and not have an ethernet controller or decent sound. You'll probably need a scan converter to hook your vga output to your monitor too.

I think it's silly for people to spend so much effort on a non-upgradable box(except the HD) but the money issue is there, and they want to, so let them play :)

Re:whatever, it is for the ability to say you did

[Sheetrock]

Then, there's also the point that a good number of people who are buying it for hackery purposes are also going to go and buy X-Box licensed games. Why not; you've got the console anyway and geeks like games.

This hard-nosed approach is a clever marketing move to play you X-Box hackers for rubes, I think. Not that it's like it's a bad thing to be taken advantage of this way; X-Box has a superior lineup of games and better hardware than the other systems out there anyway.

So, where's the loss?

[Anonymous Coward]

All evidence I've seen regarding Microsoft 'losing money on the X-Box' is related to dolts who think they can go to pricewatch.com and figure out what an X-Box costs to produce.

Hey - jackasses - you're not Microsoft, and you're not purchasing millions of bits of hardware at a time. You aren't getting bulk discounts. You aren't making deals.

Anyone have any actual evidence that Microsoft loses money on each X-Box?

"My friend's second cousin's husband's acquaintance works for.." isn't evidence.

Re:So, where's the loss?

[Troed]

Yes. People who _work_ with analyzing these kind of things say that Microsoft lost money on the xbox back when it was $299. Parts have gotten cheaper (but not by much since they're special made now when they're old). Best estimates say that MS is still losing ~$100 on every Xbox.

You could probably dig up a few links yourself if you're really interested.

(There's also a popular myth saying _everything_ loses money on the hardware and gain it back on the software. It's wrong. Sony and Nintendo are both making money on the hardware as well)

Re:So, where's the loss?

[Tidal Flame]

Three words: Opening the XBox It's a book about, basically, all the decisions Microsoft made during the time they were working on the XBox. If that doesn't alleivate your doubt, I don't think anything will.

Re:So, where's the loss?

[2nd Post!]

How about this?

$97m one year, $190m the next?

Re:So, where's the loss?

[DarkMan]

It comes from two sources. Firstly, standard practice in the console biz is to start selling the thing at a loss, with the expectation that you can optimise the production pipeline, so that you can make a profit on the boxes sold later. That's actually quite a specific price bracket, and is chosen to reduce the cost of entry, maximising profit from the system in totality (including game royalties). In effect, the hardware is being subsdised from the game royalties. Note that Sony started like that for both the PS1 and PS2, and now makes a small profit (I think it's around £20 a box) on the PS2.

Second piece: The original market price of the Xbox, claims that they were not going to drop the price, and then the round of price cuts. That's circumstansial, but if they were not selling the boxes at a loss [0] after those steep cuts, I'll be very surprised.

Interesting economics point: How many games does the average console owner have, per console? I'll take a stab at 4. Therefore, the correct thing to look at, from a business point of view, is not the profit per console - but the profit from console + 5 games. Me, I'd price the box so that the initial loss on the hardware is around the profit on 4 games [1]. Keep the initial cost's low, more adoption, and leach the money out of the customer base over time.

Now, that's all well and good, but none of that says how much profit is made on each box right now , only what they would have done at launch (loss), and near the end of the xbox lifetime (profit).

I'm going to accept that after the price dropped to 200, they were making a loss per box. They seemed quite forced into it, mainly by Sony, who had probably already improved the manufacture of PS2's, so they were not worried by the price cut.

Do they make a loss now?

Let me evade that for a moment, and discuss the development costs of the console. Aught they to be included in the 'cost' per unit sold? From a strictly business point of view - yes. You need to make back that money, before any profit is generated. From the 'does the manufacturer lose money on this sale' point of view - no. You can make the dev costs back from other sales. This complicates the whole question.

Note that this is based on economic arguemnts, and this sort of anaylsis will applie to any sales model that has a buy in cost that is greater than the per unit cost (printers, razor blades etc).

Let me link to a few facts: BBC: Microst loose $177 million. Note that that's from September last year, and is for 3 months preceding, off revenue of $1.28 billion

Q4 2002 (CNET) made a $348 million loss for the division.

Next quarter (Q1 2003) at CNET, and it's $190 million loss.

And it's too early for Q2 2003 data (rember that we need by divisional break downs, not overall profits for this).

So, they're definitly making a loss somewhere in their buisness, within the division that handles the Xbox. Is that on the xbox itself, or something else? [2]

No one can answear that. Apparently Mircosoft have confirmend that they make a loss on the hardware.

I'll take a different take to the linked article. The initial launch price was $300. Assume microsoft get $7 per game (average of the 5-10 range), and that would put the manufacturing costs at $330, or so; consistant with the analysts estimates in the above link.

They were forced to drop the price to $200 before they wanted to - I think that's clear. So suddently they were makeing over $100 loss per system. How much had they managed to reduce costs by? The above link trys to assert that they drop in lines with Moores law - that's crap [3]. My guess is that the cost is sliding down into the $220 to 250 range, based off the fact the M

Re:So, where's the loss?

[rilister]

I'll bite: How about the Securities and Exchange Commision? Do they count?

From http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/29171 .html

"...new figures filed by the company with the Securities and Exchange Commission in the USA revealing that in the three months leading up to the end of December (2002), it lost $348 million on its Xbox division, on revenues of $1.28 billion."

that's in THREE months - i.e. $1.4 billion lost annually. I realise that doesn't prove they lose per unit sold, but if they are making a profit, that's a staggering amount to be paying for payroll, R&D etc.

in contrast, this is about quarter of the operating profit made from selling Windows over the same period - so it is verging on a significant loss, even for MS.

The loss-per-unit figures are usually speculation, mainly because there's no reason on earth MS would discuss it's BOM cost or individual components with anyone else. However, serious analysts believe that MS loses about $150 per box e.g.:

http://www.redherring.com/insider/2002/0624/xbox 06 2402.html

"The costs of goods for every Xbox amount to $325, according to the source. That means that Microsoft is currently losing at least $150 on every box, and probably more due to shipping, advertising, development overhead, and return costs. Microsoft sells the box wholesale to retailers for $175. Microsoft would have to sell a lot more than three games apiece to break even.

By contrast, Sony is believed to be losing only a small amount of money on the PlayStation 2, which costs an estimated $185 to manufacture."

either way, it ain't a money spinner.

Re:So, where's the loss?

[markcic]

Actually, MS is losing money on the Xbox. That is assuming the financial information they release is real. Their business model is to sell the hardware at a loss cost to make money on the games. It is really very common is the business world to do things like that with complementary products. For example, my dad worked for a company that sells circuit breakers. Their goal was to sell load centers (breaker boxes) at a loss to make money on selling breakers. The lost 50 million on the load centers but made 200 million on the breakers. It is a viable model if you do it right.

MS failed because they didn't lock down the hardware enough to prevent people from making changes so that it would be possible to run stuff other than Microsoft approved apps.

Re:So, where's the loss?

[Thag]

And now Microsoft is finding out that they're the only ones buying that CPU, GPU, etc. anymore, because the rest of the PC market has moved on.

Their hardware costs are probably going up, not down.

Dolt yourself.

Jon Acheson

Re:So, where's the loss?

[Jarlsberg]

MS failed because they didn't lock down the hardware enough to prevent people from making changes so that it would be possible to run stuff other than Microsoft approved apps.

Eh, they didn't fail. The 50-odd people who opens their X-box may think so, but the majority aren't bothering.

Re:So, where's the loss?

[Minna Kirai]

with the expectation that you can optimise the production pipeline, so that you can make a profit on the boxes sold later.

The pipeline optimizations usually don't switch the consoles to a profitable item- those savings just keep pace with reducing the price consumers pay. The buyers won't keep paying the original price for 6+ month old hardware.

Re:So, where's the loss?

[groomed]

It's pretty much irrelevant whether an X-Box sale amounts to a net loss or a net profit.

The thing you should be looking at is which benefits Microsoft more: an X-Box sold, or an X-Box shelved?

Re:I would read it..

[splerdu]

To recycle an older post, just append &partner=anything_here to your NYTimes URL and it will display the story.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/10/technology/circu its/10xbox.html?pagewanted=all&partner=BIG_GAY _AL

Solution for Bill Gates

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft must include a clause in the Xbox "EULA" that when purchased you _must_ buy 3 Xbox games at full price in order to ensure M$FT gets its profit.

Oh is that a buisness model?

[CrazyJim0]

Sounds like a monopoly trying to flood the market with cheaper goods to kill off the competition.

Its actually the #1 reason monopolies should be controlled.

Is anyone awake out there, or have we lost our rights?

Re:Oh is that a buisness model?

[Tidal Flame]

In the gaming industry? Microsoft might be trying to do that, but look at Sony - they are doing it.

MS has been convicted for IP theft in France

[Homology]

If MS respected other companies IP so much, why the following : (http://www.gnu.org.pe/resmseng.html)

As an example, the condemnation by the Commercial Court of Nanterre, France, on 27th September 2001 of Microsoft Corp. to a penalty of 3 million francs in damages and interest, for violation of intellectual property (piracy, to use the unfortunate term that your firm commonly uses in its publicity).

The link is to an english translation of the response by the Peruean congressman Edgar Villanueva to US pressure to abandon open source plans.

Respect for their innovations..

[Anonymous Coward]

Fine Fine .. we won't copy Microsoft Bob.

Sheesh.

Best quote, indeed.

[HisMother]

> Microsoft is a company passionate about innovation and creativity
Yep, sure. As long as their customers aren't being innovative or creative, they're cool. Big Bro... I mean Microsoft retains that right for himself alone.

Just because...

[twoslice]

That is where we want to go today!

Huh?

[BasharTeg]

"Where else can you get a PIII-733 with graphics and audio for $180?"

Right here:

http://www.bzboyz.com/store/product4127.html

windows on the xbox?

[TubeSteak]

It might sound stupid, but has anyone tried putting windows on the Xbox? I realize running linux is a slap in the face to Bill Gates, but wouldn't running his own OS be much more useful to the majority of people? The only reason i can think of for not doing this is the limited RAM on the Xbox. It'd be interesting even to see a proof of concept.

please don't flame

Re:windows on the xbox?

[Anonymous Coward]

s'already been done
Windows on Linux on X-Box

Re:windows on the xbox?

[EnormousTooth]

IFAIK,Windows hasn't been put directly on the Xbox because no one can reach its source. I'm pretty sure the Xbox is different enough from a PC enough so that normal installs of Windows won't work on it.

Re:windows on the xbox?

[Jarlsberg]

Answer in a previous thread.

Re:windows on the xbox?

[Jarlsberg]

My html code got lost ;P. Here's the link:
How about windows.

MS Needs To Use Their Engineers, Not Lawyers

[reallocate]

Thanks for the half-baked economic theory. Where were you when the rest of us were in Econ 101?

This has nothing to do with a "business model" (a vacuous phrase if ever there was one). And it doesn't have anything to do with Microsoft's intellectual property rights.

MS would have a valid point about IP rights if they were selling a book containing the source listings for the X-Box. But, they aren't. The physical manifestation of that code in the X-Box hardware is real property ("real" as in "real estate"), not intellectual property. It's the same for Bill Gate's house. The architect's blueprints are intellectual property, but the house is real property.

So, if MS wants people to stop running some other OS on the X-Box, they should look to their engineers, not their lawyers.

Re:MS Needs To Use Their Engineers, Not Lawyers

[cait56]

There are really three distinct issues here:

• Selling of modded X-Boxes is clearly an abuse of Microsoft's Trademark.
• Modding the X-Box to bypass game security is clearly a violation of the DMCA. Even if you are running unauthorized third-party games rather than illegal copies, you are still using Microsoft's Intellectual Property contrary to the software lisence that was granted with the sale of the unit.
• On the other hand, even if disrupts Microsoft's business plans, you have the right to throw your X-Box into th trash. If you have th right to throw it away, you have the right to salvage the parts. My hunch is that if you can turn an X-Box into a Linux box without using Microsoft ROMs that you have merely salvaged parts that you owned anyway. That's completely legit, especially if you are essentially just enabling the PC industry standard parts.

Re:MS Needs To Use Their Engineers, Not Lawyers

[Anonymous Coward]

Modding the X-Box to bypass game security is clearly a violation of the DMCA. Even if you are running unauthorized third-party games rather than illegal copies, you are still using Microsoft's Intellectual Property contrary to the software lisence that was granted with the sale of the unit.
Not only is this hypothetical "software license" BS (I don't believe you "agree" to any "license" when you buy an X-Box), but usually the modchips completely override MS's code.

Re:MS Needs To Use Their Engineers, Not Lawyers

[reallocate]

Oh, I agree. I regularly post some strong pro-IP sentiments here and then watch the rants pour in. But I do get tired of people who've heard the "business model" buzzword and use it to leap at any opportunity to poke a phantom blade into Microsoft's ribs.

I do think there is a conceptual distinction to be made between the code developers write and the resulting bits that are eventually burned into hardware. The written code is obviously IP. But, that's moot.

Your point aout salvaging an X-Box is interesting. MS would have a claim if the box could continue to function as an X-Box, or be restored to that status, but not if the mods mode that impossible.

Re:MS Needs To Use Their Engineers, Not Lawyers

[Laur]

Interesting? Informative? No, how about incorrect.

Selling of modded X-Boxes is clearly an abuse of Microsoft's Trademark.

So if I put a new engine in my Ford truck and sell it I'm violating Ford's trademark? No. Building your own game console and calling it an XBox would violate Microsoft's trademark. Selling a used item, in original condition or no, does not in any way violate the original manufacture's trademark.

Modding the X-Box to bypass game security is clearly a violation of the DMCA. Even if you are running unauthorized third-party games rather than illegal copies, you are still using Microsoft's Intellectual Property contrary to the software lisence that was granted with the sale of the unit.

You do know that there are several boot ROMs for the XBox which use no Microsoft code whatsoever don't you? Also, the latest hack doesn't ever require flashing your ROM, just using a special font file. Running pirated games is certainly illegal. Running 3rd party games or Linux should not be. Is using these hacks in violation of the DMCA? Maybe, maybe not. That is for the courts to decide, not you or me. BTW, I know of no software license you agree to when purchasing an XBox. Microsoft's Xbox firmare is covered under copyright law, not licensing. You are correct that using this code in another boot ROM is illegal, but under copyright law, not DMCA.

Re:MS Needs To Use Their Engineers, Not Lawyers

[Lord of the Wazz]

Running pirated games is certainly illegal. Running 3rd party games or Linux should not be.

It shouldn't be, but since that would require the use of common sense as opposed to threats and lawsuits I think we can pretty much rule that one out.

i know where

[b17bmbr]

Where else can you get a PIII-733 with graphics and audio for $180?

um, i don't know, ebay?

Re:Creativity? [OT]

[Pyrometer]

Sounds like they want their cake and to eat it, too

I am fucking sick of hearing this stupid saying (who knows the roots of it?). If I buy a cake what the fuck else am I going to do with it ... keep it on display for some ants to get a free feed ... OFF COURSE I AM GOING TO EAT IT!

Ahhhh that feels better ... another day ... another rant completley unreleated to the topic ... my job as a /. boob is done for another day :)

uhm...

[FunkyELF]

No PCI slots, why would you need one? You have ethernet and audio. Why would anyone upgrade their video drivers for linux anyway...anyone actually play tuxracer? USB ports...it has 4, all of the controllers are misshaped USB controllers. All you need is one adapter and a hub and you're all set.

Ok, so you can't upgrade the RAM, but it has all a 733MHz needs. You think all this limits the usefulness of the XBox...I think its the best thing that ever happened to linux, no hardware compatability issues for xboxlinux because everyone that runs it has the same hardware. Its cheaper than web_tv. People are in the process of turning the xbox into a PVR. I would rather use my xbox on the TV than any other device, its perfect for it...almost like it was made for it or something.

Might be partly valid

[MickLinux]

Just looking at this, I can think of something I'd like to do, and it might work.

Suppose I wanted to set up a Virtual Linux server? What I might do is buy one DELL server, 4-5 XBoxes,2 ethernet boxes, and one copy of 007, allowing a modless Linux reboot. That would be a serious system, and expandable, too.

Although 65 MB of RAM isn't a lot, if you don't have a lot of processing to do, then it might be just fine.

Moreover, Microsoft said that they're more focused on mod chips. That being the case, it looks like the modless hack might not be such a bad idea.

My big question, though, would be whether XBOX Linux is up to the task. For example, is there an XBOX GCC? are all the ports well mapped? Ideally, is there an XBOX Debian?

Repercussions for Xbox Live

[vjzuylen]

The EFF's Fred von Lohmann made an interesting point in the article:

"Others will say that this is about piracy and all that, but they forget that the principle of tinkering with the stuff that you own was the principle on which the entire personal computer industry was founded," he added. "This is basic business and basic science in the technology world and we think that this right to tinker, this freedom to tinker, remains legally protected."

While I certainly believe in the right to tinker with an Xbox you paid for and use by yourself, I see a shady area when it comes to interaction with other (unmodified) Xboxes - like on Xbox Live. I'm talking about cheating here, but I think the same can be applied to use of compromised software in an online environment.

Online PC games have been plagued by cheating players since day one, because of the ease with which their client software can be modified. Xbox Live does not have this problem yet (so far cheaters have been exploiting existing flaws in Xbox games), but I fear this will not last for much longer if easy, modchip-less Xbox hacks become commonplace.

Which brings me to my point: just how far should your right to tinker extend? What if it interferes with my enjoyment of the product? Especially since I paid for the product too, and I'm using it for its intended purposes while you're not?

This is one of the main concerns of many Xbox Live users like myself, and I haven't seen this issue addressed properly by either the media or the Xbox hackers. Can anyone enlighten me? How do Xbox hackers feel about this matter? Are they taking it into consideration?

Re:Repercussions for Xbox Live

[Tidal Flame]

Good point, but, Live can detect modified hardware and ban a system from the service. I imagine this could be bypassed too, but at least it's not as easy as it could be to cheat on Live.

Re:Repercussions for Xbox Live

[Interested Spectator]

I think your dilema is still up to whoever "provides" Xbox Live. If you're being "cheated" out of play/use, then subscribe to another product, though I realize there may not be one. But, the point is, vote with your money, if the product is not doing what you want/expect, buy a different product. I don't agree with cheating, but the company that provides the product should learn from their mistakes and make a better product, or be beaten by other companies that do.

Re:Repercussions for Xbox Live

[ajs318]

Grow up, will you?

So by modifying an Xbox you could cheat in an on-line game. Pay attention to that last word. Sure, someone could get a few extra points. Big deal. It's a bloody game, for chuff's sake.

Little boys grow out of pissing contests when they find another use for their dicks.

Re:Repercussions for Xbox Live

[vjzuylen]

Maybe you've never experienced how frustrating it is to play online games against cheaters. Maybe you just don't care about games that much, and you think they're for kids, and therefore you tell me to grow up.

But I'm passionate about games, and I've invested in an Xbox, a sound system, an Xbox Live subscription, and a number of online titles to celebrate that fact. The possibility that my investment will be wasted because some hackers wanted a cheap PC and inadvertently left the door open for cheaters - well, it scares me.

Re:Repercussions for Xbox Live

[RdsArts]

This would be all well and good if one could actively change the code of the games, but at best this opens the window for a GameShark-like device if and only if someone found a way to execute Xbox-game code after the exploit is executed.

The mod chips, OTOH, have all be disernable, and have lead to people being banned from the Xbox Live service.

Especially since I paid for the product too, and I'm using it for its intended purposes while you're not?

If someone bought it with the intent to tinker, then they are, in fact, using it for the intended purpose. ^_~

Which brings me to my point: just how far should your right to tinker extend?

As far as one's mind can take it. Just because some kids might use it to cheat does not give anyone the right to say "you have no right to even attempt to do something clever with this hardware."

Re:Repercussions for Xbox Live

[vjzuylen]

Just because some kids might use it to cheat does not give anyone the right to say "you have no right to even attempt to do something clever with this hardware.

Agreed. If you wish to turn it into a cheap PC, or an audio system, or a really expensive paperweight, obviously that's your business.

The problem is that an online service like Xbox Live, and pretty much networking in general, can turn it into my business as well. Therefore, I believe your right to tinker becomes less obvious when it begins to affect me. It doesn't have to be through cheating; someone might figure out a way to modify their Xbox so that it could infect other Xboxes and turn them into DDoS zombies, for example. Unlikely I admit, but it hardly seems less annoying than cheating in games.

Re:Repercussions for Xbox Live

[RdsArts]

If someone's using Xbox Live!s for DDoS attacks, that's a error in the Live! software allowing them to take over, not a reason someone else who just wants to use their own hardware for their own goals should be barred from doing so.

Personally, I think that the tinkering is a good thing. It'll most likely be the work of those hackers that get exploits that allow cheaters, DDoSers, what have you, from being able to use those boxes by getting the exploits out in the open before something bad can happen.

Because if you say "well, Xbox hackers shouldnt' be allowed to tinker with the Xbox," your also saying "well, PC hackers should be allowed to keep coding free OSes, writing programs, creating web browsers, or anything that some large corperation does not control in whole, because... My gods, what if some kid out there decided to try and 0wnz a box?"

What's more, Xbox Live! is on the net. It's already open to attacks. Someone who really wanted to cheat is not going to sit there and just say "oh well, guess I can't. Darn." No. They'd set up some funky man-in-the-middle attacks. They'd start getting even more sneaky. Simply put, security through obscurity maintains neither after awhile.

Personally, I don't find the Xbox hacks worthwile as of yet, but I'd never want to be the one who said that shouldn't be allowed to tinker with their own hardware. Even if it does mean that "Live!" may theoretically one day possibly maybe see someone potentially cheat.

Re:Repercussions for Xbox Live

[yandros]

You seem to be considering a position, so let put forward a simple analogy:

There are people who find pornography and obscentiy objectionable. As a society, we've made the decision (in general) that at least parts of these things (obscenity, child pornography, etc.) are unacceptible for at least part of our population (minors, for example).

Consider the combination of paper and pen/pencil/brush/printer/etc. This clearly represents a method through which such things could be rendered and shown to people who find them objectionable. Historically, in fact, such things were done, and, at times, things like printing presses were restricted in ownership because of it. Thankfully, we don't (in the USofA) generally do such things right now.

One part of the problem with ``the loss of personal responsibility'' that's infected our culture(s), I claim, is a new desire to criminalize/impair the ability of people to do things that might be problematic in some situations.

As a society, we decide to give up some certain parts of our individual freedoms so that the whole group of us can better carry out our lives; in fact, this is a pretty fair definition of `society'. The United States of America was originally founded on the (IMHO good) idea that we should use a `minimum necessary' approach to giving up our freedoms. While I enjoy gaming more than 99% of the planet, and on-line gaming quite a lot, is the ability to enjoy XBox Live (which I personally do) really so valuable that we have to restrict our society's abilities to tinker, learn, explore, and generally `own' their property? Do we really think we should restrict ourselves just because someone might take advantage of those rights to maybe do something ELSE that hurts others? If the ability to do things like XBox Live enables are really so precious and deserving of such protection, wouldn't it be better to simply restrict the offending actions, rather than restricting things that might lead to offending actions, some of the time?

Re:whatever, it is for the ability to say you did

[imnoteddy]

But looking again, you can get a PIII 1G and the motherboard as a combo for $65. You can get a case for about $30. You can get the video card for about $80. So a better system for cheaper

You left out the CD/DVD reader - which the XBOX has - that pushes your homebrew box over the $200 mark.

Re:Umm @ Wal-Mart?

[AdEbh]

What about all those countries that don't have WalMart (thank god!)?

As the article said computers are more expensive in Europe and other places. That's where the difference between the price of an XBox & a white clone makes the XBox a tempting choice.

- Alex

The Xbox runs off a celeron processor

[kungfujew]

According to Linux Journal, the xbox runs off a celeron processor. I also highly doubt microsoft is still taking a loss on manufacturing these things... the cost of hardware has been halfed since microsoft first introduced the system.

Microsoft Losing Profit on Xbox's

[UnkyHerb]

Everyone always complains how Microsoft loses money on their xbox's and how their plan was to make the money off of the software. That's great but who cares what was in their plan, it's hardware, I'll do what I want with it. If they aren't making money, then maybe they should charge $500 for a box and make even less money. Who really cares what their plan is?

Who needs a modchip?

[Trigun]

From Full Disclosure:
Clickable link
http://lists.netsys.com/pipermail/full-disclosur e/ 2003-July/010895.html

[snip]
For an unknown reason this check is not performed on the audio (.wav) and font (.xtf) files. Unfourtunately for Microsoft there exists an exploitable integer underflow vulnerabilitiy within the font file loader which can be exploited with a malformed font file. When the XTF header is processed the dashboards reads a 4 byte blocksize field from the font file. This is expected to represent the size of some datablock including the 4 bytes of the size field itself. The blocksize is then allocated and the sizefield is copied into the beginning of the buffer. This is already a possible overflow bug when the field contains the values 0..3. Due to memory alignment this is not exploitable. But then the blocksize is decreased by 4 because the dashboard wants to read the rest of the block into memory. Obviously values of 0..3 will underflow when decreased by 4 and this results in the dashboard wanting to read up to ~4 gigabytes of data from the font file in a f.e. 3 bytes buffer.
Because the XBOX malloc()/free() implementation is also storing control information inbound and is similiar to the Windows 2000/XP heap allocators this bug is exploitable and allows execution of arbitrary code. The attached proof of concept code shows that exploiting is possible with offsets that are equal on all dashboards and XBOX versions known.
[/snip]

Re:whatever, it is for the ability to say you did

[aardwolf204]

Less you forget, you'll need:

Hard Disk $32
Memory: $22
DVD-ROM: $29
K & M: $10

Add that to your:

P3 733: $67
P3 Mobo: $25
Video: $44
Case&PSU: $22

Total: $251

Compare that to an Xbox at $180 or even just for fun, an Mini-ATX nForce2 IGP (Integrated Geforce Video, TV Out, Sound, NIC) + an Athlon XP 1700 for $125 and you've got yourself an even better box for less.

Re:Umm @ Wal-Mart?

[nurb432]

Ah but you will be assimilated... why resist? Eventually there will only be 3 companies left standing .. Microsoft, Wal-mart and TimeWarner.. Heh.

Again I say, "Innovation"?

[Trolling4Dollars]

Microsoft sure has a funny way of looking at innovation. The original meaning of innovation is to take something that already exists and to find a new use for it. This is NOT what Microsoft does. They take something that already exists and use it in exactly the same way that someone else does or plans to and then renames it. (cough! Indrema) They've done this over and over, yet they claim to innovate. If they had it their way, they'd claim they invented the GUI too...

Re:Umm @ Wal-Mart?

[rnd()]

You don't like Wal Mart (a store that sells inexpensive stuff), but yet you justify theft in order to obtain a product for a lower price. Sounds like your beliefs are fairly at odds with those of the rest of the civilized world.

Re:I would read it..

[DMDx86]

That link didn't work.

Another question

[MickLinux]

BTW... if anyone can answer this, I'd appreciate it. Over at Xbox-Linux, I see debian dists [nice], Mandrake, and some others. I see reference to the 007 hack. But I don't see any combination that allows a simple Linux user to pop 007 and one or two CDs, and install Linux.

Does anyone know if that will be coming out? Because if it does, then I seriously need to consider this solution.

Re:Another question

[thynk]

BTW... if anyone can answer this, I'd appreciate it. Over at Xbox-Linux, I see debian dists [nice], Mandrake, and some others. I see reference to the 007 hack. But I don't see any combination that allows a simple Linux user to pop 007 and one or two CDs, and install Linux.

It's not quiet that simple. If I understand correctly, this is how you have to go about this...

Use the 007 save game hack to install the dashboard underbuffer hack to install the unsigned linux bootloader. As I understand it, you have to either use a memory card with the 007 saved game/hack already on it, or you're looking at hot swapping your Xbox hard drive.

AFAIK - there is no bootable CD hack like we saw on the DreamCast, nor is there likely to be a simple solution.

Yes - I own an Xbox, but... I'm more than a little nervous about doing this. The last "hack" linux install I tried turned my PDA into a $200 brick... and my kids actually play games on my Xbox so I don't want to take the chance.

Hehe.. funny

[NaveWeiss]

They failed!
While Sony makes money on people running linux on PS2 since they need to buy the linux kit, Microsoft loses money when people use linux with xbox.. . although I wonder how serious that loss is. Does anyone what is the percentage of people who buy an xbox just for screwing Microsoft?

Btw: I am looking for a gf...

MS better respect my fair use rights then.

[Blackknight]

I will respect their IP rights. I don't pirate MS software or anybody's else's software.

However, MS has to respect that once you buy something, you have the right to do whatever you want with it. If I want to buy an Xbox and use it as a door stop, that's my right.

Re:whatever, it is for the ability to say you did

[AssFace]

I'm guessing that you either live in some sort of time warp that is a few years back, or you live in another country than the States.

Check out www.pricewatch.com - but if your country is anything like where I live now (Bermuda), it is a pain in the ass to get stuff shipped to you from the States.

How to hurt Microsoft.

[twitter]

If buying a $200 xbox causes Microsoft to lose $100, not buying one forces a loss of $300. The second option is easier and does more harm. Someone looking for a cheap PC or a game should buy an honest one from an honest vendor.

Re:How to hurt Microsoft.

[Kwil]

Excuse me? You seem to think there is some giant machine just eating money and churning away X-boxes, with no way for MS to stop it.

Let's take a look at the possibilities here.

1. You buy it to hack.
2. You don't, and nobody else buys it.
3. You don't and somebody buys it for its intended usage.
4. You don't and somebody else buys it to hack.

Case 4 is really the same as Case 1, just from a different POV.

Case 3 winds up as profit for MS in the game sales.

Case 2 winds up as a net loss for MS of $300.. except.. case 2 doesn't actually exist, because sooner or later someone is going to purchase it - either at that store, or, if they send it back, at some other store. Until it gets sold, that's one less X-box MS is producing. So your maximum loss is $300, and that's only if it goes into the landfill, unused - the odds of that?

So we come back to case 1. In Case 1, MS sees a loss of $100, but they don't know it's a loss at this point. It could be a successful sale (Case 3) in which case it behooves them to produce another one, in hopes of catching yet another case 3.

Which in the end means that only in case 1 (or case 4, which is the same thing) do we see that MS actually loses money, as otherwise, the sale of the machine becomes profit for them, and the non-sale of the machine eventually winds up as a sale simply because they don't have to produce any more until it's sold.

Prediction

[BillsPetMonkey]

This is another example of giantkiller technologies like XML , P2P and Linux. The battle lines are still being drawn, but the core message is the same - businesses have to adapt to the new model, because it's not going away. Notice how PS2 modders have been pre-empted with PS2 Linux? That was no accident. That was just smart thinking from Sony (albeit rare). Wait until XBox sales start flagging, and watch the reins come off the modding community. I'm sure even Microsoft's CEO is capable of some smart thinking.

Re:Prediction

[irritating environme]

Sony isn't preempting hackers with its PS2 Linux release, or at least that is way down the list of motivations.

If Sony is going to expand to set-top land for home computing, they don't want to use Windows systems. Do they want to make their own propeitary OS and apps? That never worked before.

They're going to use linux for any productivity or surfing or email needs of people. I think this will flesh out better in the PS-3. Linux wasn't nearly as full-featured when the PS-2 launched, but that will all be different for the PS-3.

phooey

[August_zero]

Modding is fine, you bought the box, MS is using its massive fiscal burliness to force its way into the console market, losses they suffer because of it is their own damn fault in the same way that if I sell my Lemonade at a 5 cent loss per cup I can't get angry when someone buys it all.

I do however think, that the modding thing has no place on the x-box live service since the only thing that it does is make cheating easier and god do I ever hate cheaters. Banning people off of that service for mod chipping seems fair enough to me. Voiding the warrenty, locking out software, do what ever you want MS, but don't tell me It's against the law to use my x-box for spare parts or as a cheap server if I want to. If you can't cope with the losses, I suggest you amend your business strategy

Cheap PC's? Try the Philippines :)

[0xB00F]

You can buy a PC here for under 100$ at the current Peso-Dollar exchange rate.

See for yourself... This is where I buy my stuff. So the next time you come over for a vacation, shop around for a new PC :) You can buy all the parts and assemble it when you get back to your country.

Re:Cheap PC's? Try the Philippines :)

[0xB00F]

Oops! Miscalculated a bit there. It should say $1000. Anyway, you can some old Pentiums here for under $100.

I was able to buy a P4 1.7Ghz PC for about $700.

Re:Cheap PC's? Try the Philippines :)

[thynk]

I can go to www.dell.com and get a faster machine for under $700 unless you've got some really wiz bang cool features there.

If I really wanted to spend the time building it from parts, I know I could probably beat Dell's best price by 5-10%.

AHHH???

[NaveWeiss]

Shut up, bitch!! I am not pathethic!!!!!111

Re:Umm @ Wal-Mart?

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I bought a used 500MHz Xeon workstation for $200, with 256k RAM, Firewire, USB, SuperIO, actual PCI slots, even three ISA slots for my legacy tasks, etc, in a better looking, albiet much larger, package, and the performance likekly easily nukes XBox. No reason to futz with mods and other crap.

Wal-Mart

[No Such Agency]

OK, yeah, maybe you get a cheap PC from Wal-Mart, but on the other hand you just gave money to Wal-Mart. That money goes to help them destroy the economy of every small town they move into, efficiently union-busting and wage-cutting as they go. Because if you think Microsoft's "loss-leading" business model is obnoxious, you ain't seen nothin' yet. A Wal-Mart store can run at a loss for YEARS until all other stores in the vicinity are out of business.

Re:Wal-Mart

[jrockway]

I don't see the problem. Rather, I don't see how I'm hurt.

* I get low prices. Damn, now I'll have to save more money or buy more stuff. Sucks to be me.

* Workers aren't unionized. So now the workers get paid what they're worth, which is ~$3.00 an hour or whatever. If they don't want it, they can go somewhere else or, even worse, get a real job! The horrors!

Yeah, Walmart is really hurting me. Ouch.

Re:Umm @ Wal-Mart?

[AdEbh]

OK, maybe my call about WalMart was a bit harsh. After all I have never been to one. However from my post it was not clear why I disliked WalMart, and it was certainly not because they sold things cheaply.

As to me justifying theft, well I don't know how buying an XBox could be theft. You must be just a lot smarter than me to work that one out.

- Alex

What happened to providing what the consumer wants

[Interested Spectator]

While reading this article, I just got the feeling that we are now in an era where the companies are right, and the consumers are wrong. It used to be the other way around. Also, maybe copyright owners of digital products should sue Microsoft for providing the tools to steal their digital products?

Circumvention technology?

[gilroy]

Here's a hypothetical. Let's say Alice writes a book and gives it away -- but publishes it in code. She then sells a sheet of paper with the code on it. Under the DMCA how do the following play out?

Bob buys a copy of the codesheet. He then photocopies it and distributes it to 10 of his closest friends.

Bob buys a copy of the codesheet. He then sells it to Charlene. He does not copy the sheet nor does he himself read the book.

Bob takes a copy of the book. Without ever looking at the codesheet he figures out the code, using frequency analysis, etc. He then (a) reads the book; (b) tells Charlene about the book; or (c) tells Charlene about the code.

Bob takes a copy of the book but does not buy the codesheet. He tears out the pages of the book and uses them to line his birdcage.

I think it's pretty clear that only the very first usage is contrary to traditional conceptions of copyright. Note that Microsoft is essentially arguing that that last use would be illegal -- he is using the product in a way not intended and he is "circumventing" (literally, going around) the encryption device. Sure, he doesn't need the encryption device because he doesn't use the intellectual content of the book. But apparently the publisher gets to say what uses he makes of the book.

By the way, since Bob could simply take the book and burn it -- not buying the codesheet -- he has the potential to undermine Alice's business model. Therefore, matches are circumvention devices and must be banned. It does not matter that matches have many other uses; it does not matter that most books don't use an encryption sheet (or this silly business model). Under the arguments for the DMCA, any potential infringement of any single work is sufficient to block a device.

In other words, we've handed corporations a blank check to invent poor business models and then force us to pay when someone takes advantage.

Actually, it's like this

[SatanicPuppy]

People always miss the point on retail sales.

Ever notice how books top the bestseller list before they can be bought by the public? You know why? Because the people who BUY books are not consumers: They are bookstores.

Same goes with the Xbox. Microsoft sells to electronics stores. If an Xbox is in the store, they've sold it already. If an Xbox game is in the store, it's already been sold.

Microsoft doesn't care if the consumer buys more games, they just care if the retail store buys more games. Admittedly they are connected, but you have to remember that it is possible for MS to break even on a product that is ONLY bought by the retail chains, and never sold to a single person. Indeed, they can make a very nice profit if the hype is effective.

Re:Actually, it's like this

[pod]

What?!?! All that does is fill the supply chain with merchandise. How much could that possibly be? And if it doesn't sell, retailers will complain, try to return the boxes, try to get a better deal on them, or get MS to do more marketing to move the product.

Re:Hacking the Hardware - Here's the Challenge

[Interested Spectator]

This is not a good challenge for me. I bought my G4 BECAUSE it runs Mac OS X. It does what I want it to do and I was willing to pay for that functionality. If I was unable/unwilling to pay for that functionality, I would then try and find a way to use what I had (mod an x86 machine) to run Mac OS X. That should be legal if i buy Mac OS X and either buy or build all of the required hardware/software. Also, it should be legal if I use it for my own, personal use. If I contemplated selling the solution, that's a different story. I'm fortunate not to be in that situation, though. You know, I think the MAIN issue here is that Microsoft/Big Companies want to control the consumer's habits instead of the consumer controlling their product decisions.

How to stick it to microsoft legally!

[Snaller]

1. Buy XBox
2. Don't buy any games.
3. ...
4. No Profit!

But who do you blame?

[Kwil]

Do you blame the hackers, or do you blame the people who made the games without thinking about the hackers?

Re:But who do you blame?

[Interested Spectator]

My thought is don't blame anyone. Just don't give them your money if they don't provide a good service/product. Vote with your money!

Re:But who do you blame?

[vjzuylen]

I don't necessarily blame the hackers, or the programmers who were confident in Xbox's existing security measures. But I do blame the cheaters, if they indeed take advantage of recent developments.

However, I don't buy the argument that companies alone should take the blame for compromised security. Surely the hackers who worked tirelessly to defeat the (rather beefy, judging by some reports) security measures have to accept some responsibility for their own actions? It's different when they're merely pointing out security flaws rather than exploiting them, but that's not what happened here.

In the case of Microsoft, they provided a pretty nice product, and for the longest time it didn't seem like anyone was able to hack it (other than with modchips, which are detectable to Xbox Live), so I voted with my money by buying an Xbox. I'm still glad I did because I'm getting a lot of enjoyment out of it, but I wonder how much longer Xbox Live will be safe.

cost

[56ksucks]

Where else can you get a PIII-733 with graphics and audio for $180?

Well I can build a 1.3 GHz Duron with graphics and audio for about $200-$300, does that count?

Bah not really true

[jidar]

The majority of Xbox linux users -also- buy Xbox software. I know that's how I do it. Splinter Cell and Halo are awesome.. so is Linux.
The way I see it, I'm just a legitimate customer who found some uses for his hardware in addition to what the manufacturer intended.

Re:Umm @ Wal-Mart?

[ajs318]

you justify theft in order to obtain a product for a lower price.

Which bit am I missing here? If I buy and pay for an Xbox with my own money, and I run Free software on it, where exactly does theft come into it?

Where else ?

[tmark]

Where else can you get a PIII-733 with graphics and audio for $180?

Well, I know that it's *easy* to buy a refurb or sometimes even new but remaindered P3 with higher specs than this, in Canada, for less than they sell an Xbox for. I have to assume the same is true for the U.S.

A gigaPC for the same price

[Anonymous Coward]

"Where else can you get a PIII-733 with graphics and audio for $180?"

Damn, I can do better with PriceWatch:

$64 Soyo M7IWM/L Motherboard, Celeron 1GHz CPU
$56 MGS Powered by ATI RADEON 7500 128MB SDRAM
w/TV-Out+DVI AGP 4X/2X
$20 MID ATX Turbo CASE W/ 230W ATX POWER SUPPLY
---
$130

Now add this $32 hotswapable 20 gig HD I found at HTC Net Store and for about the same price, you get a hard drive.

Now, out of the U.S., this will be hard to do, but if you live in the Imperial Homeland, the argument that modding your XBox is cheaper than building your own PC does not fry.

Note: I did not include links for two reasons: 1) every changes so fast, they would probably dead or misleading by the time you read this and 2), I ain't a sales person. Do your own searching.

Re:A gigaPC for the same price

[JFMulder]

If the case and power supply really cost 20$ then I'm sure your system will break in a matter of months. Cheap parts make cheap computers. XBOX is not cheap hardware.

Also, you forgot to add a keyboard (5$), a floppy drive (10$), a CD drive(I dunno, maybe 25$), a network card or modem (10$). I'm sure the sound quality on that Soyo board is nothing compared to what the Xbox is capable of. Also, you might want to reconsider the use of a TV-Out to do anything other than playing games under Windows because Windows is not meant to be displayed on a TV screen at any resolution and the text is hardly redeable unless you make it bigger or use a tool like Magnifier.

So yeah, the Xbox is a pretty good deal at 180$. I don't believe you can get better then a modded Xbox to use as a cheap Linux box. Even tought you need to mod it right now, soon you'll probably be able to buy a memory card on eBay or in some stores with the hacks loaded on them. And then all you'll have to do is load you rented copy of 007, put the memory card in the controler, load the game, change the 007 CD for the Linux CD and Voilà, you have Linux. No need even to mod the box.

Now that's cheap!

Re:Hacking the Hardware - Here's the Challenge

[Sharth]

you do realize, that windows is compiled for an x86 platform, while mac os is compiled for a ppc platform. that in itself causes incredible amounts of problems. xbox is x86 hardware. linux can run on x86 (as well as mac), thats why it can be placed on a xbox. It would need serious hardware modding (not getting around a security technique), to do that, and you would most likely be making the mac to be a x86 machine (or vice versa).

Re:What happened to providing what the consumer wa

[Roark Meets Dent]

Benito Mussolini (sp?) said that fascism was the merger of state and corporate power. This desribes America today: we're well along the way, and probably past the point of no return. The Newspeak for this phenomenon in the modern U.S.A. is "public-private partnerships," among other equally revolting terms. It is the reason why you won't see genetically modified foods carry mandatory labelling in this country. It is the reason why in my home of NJ that the penalties for driving without insurance are double that of driving drunk. And it's the reason why soon you won't even be able to buy effective over the counter vitamins -- who needs vitamins, anyway? We've got the big pharmaceuticals to sell us expensive chemicals when we get sick.

Bah.

I'm sure IBM would beg to differ...

[mabhatter654]

We are also very committed to respect for others' intellectual property and we request the same respect applied to our innovations.

I'm sure that they were "respecting" IBM's IP when they assisted Compaq and the other clone makers by adapting their MSDOS to run on the "unlicensed" clone boxes.

Turnabout is fair play...but it usually sucks!

The Next Great Moral Principle

[serutan]

Theft of Marketing Strategy Outcome! For God's Sake, we must be sure the definition of "intellectual property" prevents individuals from doing anything that disrupts a business plan. Come to think of it, it should be a crime to buy an advertised sale item without also buying two items at regular price. Theft of bait! Damn freeloaders.

Re: You're forgetting some stuff sexy...

[unclebrady]

Not to be a bastard, but what about...

Ram?
Hard Drive?
Power supply?
All those cables like IDE?

That puts is waaaaay past $200 bro.

Re:What happened to providing what the consumer wa

[Interested Spectator]

I don't want this. So what do we do to stop going along this "path"? Any suggestions?

Re:Hacking the Hardware - Here's the Challenge

[PeeCee]

For those hacking the X-Box, here's the challenge: Prove you aren't doing this just to one-up Microsoft and you truly believe that you should be able to do whatever you want with the hardware and the software. How to prove it?

Challenge 1 - Get an Apple G3 or G4 or G5 to boot Windows XP

Challenge 2 - Get OS X booting on a PC

Challenge 3 - ???

Challenge 4 - Profit!

No, but seriously, that doesn't make much sense... running Linux on the Xbox is something technically perfectly feasible (and desirable for the reasons stated in this thread). However, running Windows on an Apple box or OS X on a PC is pretty much impossible (I'm talking about doing it natively, you might get away with software emulation) because they're just made for different hardware. Even if you had the source to the OS's it'd be hard enough to port them, and it'd be an effort of astronomic proportions compared to what it takes to run Linux on an Xbox (which is after all just some form of a PC).

This is more of a troll

[Anonymous Coward]

"Selling of modded X-Boxes is clearly an abuse of Microsoft's Trademark."

Hardly. I can buy a Chevy Corvette, mod the crap out of it and sell it as "Bill's Modded Corvettes". Chevy couldn't care less. Why does MS get a different set of laws than anybody else?

"you are still using Microsoft's Intellectual Property contrary to the software lisence that was granted with the sale of the unit."

There is no license granted or implied with the sale of a piece of hardware. I own an XBOX, and I've looked. I bought one, I never agreed to anything when I bought it. I never agreed to anything when I started it up. You may imagine there is one, but I may also imagine I am the prince of persia, too.

" That's completely legit, especially if you are essentially just enabling the PC industry standard parts."

If you divide that line any further we won't be able to see it. You're saying there are certain parts in an X-BOX that I can do with what I want, there are others that I can't. Nobody seems to have this inventory. I suggest the moment you say that there are significant portions of the XBOX that are non-proprietary that you can't tell me that I can't use the box for whatever I damned well please.

Remember, just because MS (or Sony, or Nintendo, or GM, or Xerox, or Apple, or ANYBODY) doesn't like it doesn't make it illegal. It doesn't make it a violation of copyright or DMCA. It just means that a lot of big companies have a short-sighted board up their ass that makes them act contrary to their own long-term interests.

Mod Chips for Printers?

[mcheu]

it might not make sense for printers, but i'm not sure that i agree with your comment about the ink cartridges, b/c why couldn't you buy generic cartridges and circumvent giving the manufacturer any money back???? As mentioned previously on Slashdot and other places, companies like Lexmark have added chips to some cartridges to prevent people from refilling them, or making generics. Basically, the hitch to making generic carts is that the firmware on the chips is copyright. You can't produce working cartridges without a compatible chip. Of course, you can't do that without either a copy of the firmware or by reverse engineering the firmware, which is apparently a no longer a legal practice under the DMCA if you're in the USA. Through the magic of legal acrobatics, making certain generic printer cartridges is made illegal under the DMCA. This doesn't explain why such generics aren't produced and sold in other countries though...

Slight Correction

[DarkMan]

I fell into the trap of assuming that the amount of money that Microsoft made was the same as the high street sale price. That is clearly false.

It is normal that the manufactor recieves around 50% of the normal sale price for the goods. The remainder is eaten by distribution, shop costs (e.g. staff) and so on.

This does not invalidate the above particularly much, except that the actual estimates for the cost of the system are now off, by around a factor of two. The profit/loss made doesn't change, thus the major point is intact.

This makes my assesment of the cost no longer agree with one of the linked artickles, making me question the validity of any other information from it - specifically, the royalty per game that microsoft makes. Can anyone corroborate (or otherwise) that information?

Re:Slight Correction

[DeadScreenSky]

Just some info:
Consoles are usually sold with significantly low profits for the retailers - a few dollars is not uncommon. So distribution certainly must be calculated, but retailers take very little of the $180 pie. Peripherals have extremely high margins, though, which does help the retailer (as most people buy an extra controller when they buy the system, I would imagine, and non-xbox systems require memory cards).

Wrong processor

[Anonymous Coward]

The Xbox processor is a 733mhz Celeron, not a P3.

ssh and network

[Chemical Serenity]

Basically, you ssh into it from an actual computer. For the price/performance ratio, xboxes could be handily turned into nice headless render farms, parallel computing platforms, webservers... whatever you can think of that would benefit from a more-than-one use.

If I had some spare $$$s I might pick up a 6 pack and see what kind of fun I could have with em. :D

same difference.

[twitter]

Microsoft doesn't care if the consumer buys more games, they just care if the retail store buys more games.

If you don't, they won't. If people don't buy this thing, Microsoft eats the development costs and gets what it deserves for predatory dumping.

Ever notice how books top the bestseller list before they can be bought by the public? You know why? Because the people who BUY books are not consumers: They are bookstores.

Books, music and other mass produced media take their cues from primary markets like New York, LA, San Deigo and other large cities. Things that sell well there, for whatever reason, are assumed to sell well elsewhwere. Typically, what does not sell in a primary market gets dumped onto secondary markets later anyway, but they are not mass produced like things that are expected to sell. I'm not sure this applies to consumer electronics but it does not matter.

The worst thing that can happen to Microsoft is to develop a flop. Anytime anyone buys a M$ thingy, it's good for M$. Flops put big fat holes in the Microsoft hype machine and eat into their cash. Factories try to proctect themselves from flops with minimum purchases required to make a run. Retailers try to protect themselves with clauses about return of unsold mechanise. We can't know what pressure both sides put on Microsoft for the xbox, but we can make up our minds to buy honest wares and let dishonest people go out of business.

Re:same difference.

[SatanicPuppy]

In some ways, it's worse than that. A good recent example from the world of gaming: Master of Orion III. Went gold before it ever got released. Huge dissapointment to a lot of people. Made a LOT of money. Sold because everyone who loved Moo II was willing to gamble on the sequel. The stores bought it because Moo II sold a lot of copies.

Just because you are discerning, doesn't mean you can't pick up some crappy software, especially crappy games. You see good screenshots, you hear good sound clips, nice cinematics, good storyline, so you buy it and poof, the interface sucks, the whole thing is a complete waste. I've got a whole box of crap like that sitting by my desk.

Microsoft is the best in the world at one thing: making you buy their damn products. Savvy people can not buy their stuff, and it will put a dent in their profits. However, there are plenty of suckers out there who will buy the stuff.

It's just so funny.....

[mormop]

"Microsoft is a company passionate about innovation and creativity. We are also very committed to respect for others' intellectual property and we request the same respect applied to our innovations. .......... Sorry, I'm so busy pissing myself laughing........

Anyway, If they are selling at a loss because they can't shift enough of them that's their problem not their customers.

If you tune your car or motorbike and use it to it's full potential does the manufacturer turn up on your doorstep with a hoarde of lawyers and take your car back....no. And why not? Simple, it's none of their bloody business what YOU do with YOUR car once you've paid. OK, so the police may take an interest but that's pretty reasonable given that doing 170MPH on public roads qualifies you for the "shit for brains trophy for total stupidity".

Hacking AN X-Box hurts no-one other than a convicted monopoly company that's using it's extreme wealth to prop up a product that would have gone down the drain by now if it had come from anyone else a 'la dreamcast.

Can someone now do something about this "you don't own it, just licence it" crap now please.

Re:It's just so funny.....

[August_zero]

Hacking AN X-Box hurts no-one other than a convicted monopoly company that's using it's extreme wealth to prop up a product that would have gone down the drain by now if it had come from anyone else a 'la dreamcast.

To be honest, I don't think that the modding is really even hurting MS. They expected to take it up the pooper so to speak on the x-box, and thats what they are getting.

I think blaming moders for loses is in the same league as the RIAA blaming piracy for all of the recording industries ills; It gives them something they can tell the stock holders to explain why the industry has had less than perfect performance.

Re:It's just so funny.....

[mormop]

Well yeah, I'd go along with that actually. In fact, if MS could let go of the power crazed desire to dominate and control everything they'd probably sell more dual boot X-Box console / Linux machines than they are X-Boxes now.

What Huang Endured to Publish the book

[Geartest.com]

In addition to the main article, the NYTimes also has a sidebar that describes the obstacles "bunnie" Huang faced trying to get his "Hacking the Xbox" book published.

Wiley Technology Publishing -- which often works with Microsoft to publish guides for Microsoft products, like the Xbox -- agreed to publish Huang's book then backed out, citing DMCA concerns, but says they would not ask Huang to return the advance they paid him.

Unable to find another publisher, Huang self-published and began selling copies out of his garage. The Electronic Frontier Foundation then stepped in and helped Huang find a new publisher.

There's more in the article, including some discussion about the chilling effect recent legislation has on intellectual freedom.

Re:What Huang Endured to Publish the book (Google)

[Geartest.com]

Here's the Google link to the article.

Does this really hurt Bill?

[snoopyjd]

It seems to me that their strategy was to lower the price of the XBox to encourage more people to buy it, and it doesn't seem like they are losing money on the actual hardware (marketing, R&D, and other accounting matters may likely show a loss). Additionally, it seems like they have been trying to keep this debate going in the media and on the internet.

Therefore, by giving their hardware praise and talking about how inexpensive it is I think a lot of people are unwittingly playing right into MS's hand. When people see these comments they are likely to buy the product and use it however they see fit, but will probably buy a few games, and maybe participate in on-line gaming. This is exactly what Bill is looking for.

Of course such forward thinking and creative marketing may not have occurred to MS, but then again they did build a corporate empire based on a decision to lose money on their sales of DOS to IBM thereby encouraging millions of other users to lock themselves into their products. But then again I could be another MS spy sent to discourage people from hacking the Xboxes.

Re:The law

[Xabraxas]

I know I'm feeding a troll but oh well.

The law says Microsoft's business plan was perfectly reasonable

That's not the issue. It is perfectly legal to sell consoles at below cost because it's been done by everybody in the game console market. We all know that. It's just not very smart to sell something with common PC hardware at below cost.

and if you try to interfere with it, you go to jail

Maybe if you use it to play bootleg games but how is illegal to simply modify something you already own?

Who are you going to believe? A bunch of teenaged hackers with too much free time, or Uncle Sam?

Teenage hackers. Uncle Sam has lied before and he will again.

Might as well slit your own throat...

[Mulletproof]

"The reality is that if you could bypass Microsoft's operating system you would end up with a fairly powerful computer for less than $200"

As self righteous as hackers can be over the XBox-Linux debacle, I don't know of a company in the world that slit their own throats like these fools expect MS to. I'm sorry, these people simply aren't living in reality.

I've said it before and I'll say it again-- when a company has so much to lose by allowing the competition access to their product only a stoned idiot would consider this a good thing for their business, yet we have plenty of absolute fucking idiots crying that they somehow have a right to force MS into Linux compatibility when that God given right to Linux never existed. "It's a sad day for Microsoft" only because somebody got smacked upside the head with a reality check.

Look, I like the hacks as much as the next guy. I'll be using it just to play the import Yukikaze (Movie; Cripes this game looks hot), but it just bugs the shit out of me when people insist on pushing their own little open source fantasies in places where reality simply doesn't allow for them.

Defective Business Model.

[ebbomega]

If my business model is to sell stuff below cost, I think I have a problem with my business model.

Theoretically, what they're saying is that they're selling shoes in hopes that it'll grow their sock sales, and anybody who buys socks from elsewhere or makes their own is undermining their business model.

If Microsoft, the Great Technilogical Way Of The Future that it is, cannot make a profit on selling XBoxes, then they shouldn't be selling XBoxes. Seems pretty simple to me.

Rest in Peace Capitalism, our long dead friend.

standard practice - not really

[vlad_petric]

Sony doesn't sell its Playstations at a loss, it sells them at zero profit (the advantage of developing and manufacturing the chips in-house ...). That's quite a difference.

The Xbox is still a colossal loss for Microsoft - but they're pretty much the only ones who can afford it.

Only in the US

[hayden]

Generic cartridges are quickly becoming a thing of the past.

The EU is issuing smackdown to printer manufacturers who do that (as it should be. If yuor business model sucks then it's not their problem).

Re:Only in the US

[jrockway]

Their business model doesn't suck, it actually makes the printer companies a lot of money.

Fortunately, this strategy seems to only apply to "consumer model" products, so if you get a good laser printer, you'll be fine. I paid a lot for mine (and the one before, $700!), but haven't had to buy a cartridge for four years. You get what you pay for--in my case, not screwed.

Yeah well

[hayden]

This is slashdot. Most people don't read any of the article so three pages is pretty long.

If they like innovation?

[Swift2k]

The X-Box Linux mod , is in itself a innovative product. They took a product that MS wants to see on every tv-side table and gave it a new purpose. Linux mod isn't like the mod-chipping the x-box to pirate games. Its another method of using the x-box Swift2k

I bought and Xbox...

[LilMikey]

I bought an XBox because it can be hacked. Over time I happened to buy about 10 or so games I thought were cool... In my case, hacking is making MS money.

It almost feels dirty to say that.

Wally box beats Xbox

[DABANSHEE]

Go check the specs on Wally's box. 1.2GB Duron beats the shit out of the Xbox's Cellery (it may say PIII but it has half the cache disabled, making it a Celeron), it also has heaps more memory.

Basically, unless Wally's box has intigrated video based on the NForce (Nforce Athlon boards do exist), the only thing the Xbox beats the Wally box on would be 3D video.

Re:Form Factor (for DVD?)

[gosand]

And if its JUST for use for video/dvd.. why bother with building something that sticks out like a sore thumb anyway

Of course, if you want a small form factor device that plays DVDs, you could always just get, oh, say a DVD player? There are many out there for under $100, and most of them play VCD and MP3s too. Now I know it isn't as flexible as a networked PC, but for half the price, which is more sensible?

Video includes divx for me..

[nurb432]

So that sort of blows standalone players, for now.

I have PC dedicated for that purpose.. If it should die, then i goto a modded console out of cost considerations.

If you dont do 'alternative' formats, then i agree totally..

p3-550 for $130 = close enough.

[iamhassi]

Where else can you get a PIII-733 with graphics and audio for $180?

well that's easy: compgeeks.com

Alright so it's not quite a 733, but for $50 less it's close enough. Audio is good enough, and although the video may leave something to be desired a $30 video card off pricewatch would give you comparable 3D graphics.

To be honest I don't think people hack XBox's for the "bang for buck", I think they do it just to do it. If you could get the BMW's 745i computer to run Linux I'm sure people would be doing it.