Wozniak Unveils WozNet

dki writes "Steve Wozniak's WozNet is covered in an article at the New York Times today. His company Wheels of Zeus, mentioned previously on Slashdot last year, plans to create wireless networks that use GPS to track clusters of electronic tags within a 1- or 2-mile radius of a base station. The tags "will be able to generate alerts, notifying the owner by phone or e-mail message when a child arrives at school, a dog leaves the yard or a car leaves the parking lot.""

Comments

tracking everything

[ianmalcm]

Big Brother at a consumer level.

wonderful.

Re:tracking everything

[dema]

Since when did the terms "convinence" and "Big Brother" get so confusing for people?

Re:tracking everything

[kwerle]

Big Brother at a consumer level.

wonderful.

To my mind, there were only 1 problem with big brother:
The information was not universal. That is, only the government had access. If the general public had access to the same data, it would have been OK. ie. The problem was not that the govenernment had too much data, it was that it did not share it.

I know that sounds crazy to half the /.ers, but the other half should love it, right? Information wants to be free, right? Your location and activities ARE WHO YOU ARE. I don't believe that the government should have access to that information - I believe everyone should [unless your in a private place, say your own home, then just your location should be available :-]

The moniker(sp, sorry) "Big Brother" implies something: they were like family looking out for you. So, yes, this stuff is "Big Brother"ish - but in the sense that you can look out for your family, not that the government can spy on you. You just have to look for the original meaning of the term.

Re:tracking everything

[lazira]

Since when are we opposed to technology? Like freenet and every other technology, this has the potential for both good and bad use. Woz has proposed a perfectly legitimate use for tracking technology. If the government ever proposes tracking us with it, THEN we can start an uproar.

Re:tracking everything

[anthony_dipierro]

Since when did the terms "convinence" and "Big Brother" get so confusing for people?

Since 1984 was written.

Re:tracking everything

[nordicfrost]

Uh, no. Track what wants to be tracked. Don't wanna be tracked? Fin. Don't carry the Woznet device around with you. Want to have some privacy for a while? Leave it at home.

Re:tracking everything

[switcha]

Want to have some privacy for a while? Leave it at home.

Oh sure, then everyone will think I just sit around the house all day... Oh, wait...

Re:tracking everything

[eggnet]

Because pedaphiles have a tough time finding vulnerable children today.

Re:tracking everything

[Hatta]

Indeed. I think this should be under YRO rather than Apple.

Re:tracking everything

[ShieldW0lf]

So how much is the surgery?

Can you put it in a kid, or do you need to wait for them to stop growing first?

ALERT!! ALERT!! Your daughter is back at that lowlife-she-calls-a-boyfriends house again!!

Computer, locate shotgun...

Re:tracking everything

[Kombat]

What if a paedophile managed to hack into the system, and then had instant access to the exact locations of thousands of children ?

You mean like cracking open a phone book and looking under "Schools?" Or did you mean picking up a local tourism brochure and flipping to the "Playgrounds" section? Perhaps even something as evil and insidious as looking up daycare centers on the Internet using YellowPages.com?

Maybe he can find one on their own, somewhere quiet.

Near enough that he/she won't be gone by the time the pervert arrives? "Hey, there's one by itself (boy or girl?) in the trees near Seattle. If I catch the 7:00 commuter flight out of San Diego and make the connection in Chicago, I can be there by ... " Sure.

Given the level of fear over people using their credit card numbers on computers connected to the internet,

Bad example. Those "fears" are nothing more than irrational, uneducated, paranoid FUD. The Internet is a far safer place to exercise your credit card than virtually all physical retail outlets.

Re:tracking everything

[sapped]

Consider this: What if a paedophile managed to hack into the system, and then had instant access to the exact locations of thousands of children ? Maybe he can find one on their own, somewhere quiet.

Consider this: Now the cops can use the GPS ID that you have just supplied to them and they can nail the guy immediately.

Re:tracking everything

[mickwd]

"You mean like cracking open a phone book and looking under "Schools?" Or did you mean picking up a local tourism brochure and flipping to the "Playgrounds" section? Perhaps even something as evil and insidious as looking up daycare centers on the Internet using YellowPages.com?"

That's completely different from what I was getting at, and you know it.

You split my first paragraph, whose sentences are related, so you can criticise the first sentence, just to make a smart comment about it being easy to find large groups of children in controlled, supervised groups. My second sentence said "maybe he can find a child on their own, somewhere quiet". I'm obviously not talking about the ease of finding children in places like schools.

""Hey, there's one by itself (boy or girl?) in the trees near Seattle. If I catch the 7:00 commuter flight out of San Diego and make the connection in Chicago, I can be there by ... " Sure."

"Hey, there's one by itself (boy or girl, does it really matter to this sort of sicko ?) down by the river, just down the road from here". Good job I haven't had to hang around there for the past few weeks - I'm sure many people would have noticed me hanging around, looking suspicious - maybe some of them would have been able to describe what I look like.

Those "fears" are nothing more than irrational, uneducated, paranoid FUD. The Internet is a far safer place to exercise your credit card than virtually all physical retail outlets."

You know that, I know that. But millions of people out there don't, which is why those fears exist.

Re:tracking everything

[kwerle]

In 1984, the problem is not that the government knows what you're doing or not - it is that they are the only authority. They know more than anyone else, because they see more than anyone else. If everyone had access to the data, they could not lie or mislead the public about what is or is not going on.

The truth is that nobody cares how many condoms you buy, but if they did, they could find out (or at least the government could). Credit card records, receipts, video, or just going through your trash.

I don't want to live in an aquarium. And putting that aquarium out into the street instead of keeping it in an authorized-access-only place doesn't really help here.

You do live in an aquarium - though the water may be a little murky, all's that's needed for a clear view is a little effort by the owner of the tank. The only reason you want that aquarium in a secure location is because you trust the government or you haven't considered the issue. That sounds like flamebait, but I don't mean it that way - if you can think of a response that doesn't fall into that category, I'd love to hear it.

I'm actually NOT advocating putting cameras on every corner. But there are a lot of cameras around... What I am advocating is that everyone should have access to those cameras that are pointed at public spaces.

Re:tracking everything

[Suidae]

I'd agree that stalking type uses are a potential drawback of locator technology, but I kind of lump it in there with the drawback of driving cars (you know, the whole dying-on-the-highway thing).

The 'protecting the children from rapists' thing is a dumb argument anyway, the large majority of assults are by family members or other trusted non-strangers.

Locator technology will be extremely useful, and as technology advances, difficult to avoid. It does kind of open up some sticky privacy issues, mostly if the locators are small enough to be easily hidden. Even if normal consumer devices advertised their presence to any scanner (allowing any person to scan their general area and remove unwanted locators) I can imagine that the government would be pretty keen to have their own version that didn't identify itself. These would both be useful from a law enforcement prespective (unubtrusive monitoring of probationary subjects, warranted tracking of suspects, etc), and easy to abuse if not handled pretty strictly, like wire taps.

Re:tracking everything

[Zan Zu from Eridu]

I'm actually NOT advocating putting cameras on every corner. But there are a lot of cameras around... What I am advocating is that everyone should have access to those cameras that are pointed at public spaces.

I think this is a very bad idea for different reasons. a) If these images become public domain, victims of rape, assault, etc. might find they have become some pervert's all time favorite moviestar. b) It might be very useful for criminal activity also. c) If you're worried about companies tracking your activities, realize you've just locked the kid in the candystore.

interesting...

[Spytap]

I'm not sure whether my first reaction is one of geek-interoperability heaven, or "1984"-style wariness. I guess my feelings are that for private citizens this could be a very cool idea, but for a general populace control/observance I'm a little worried.

where did I leave my keys?

[dirvish]

The tags will only cost about $25 and I am sure that price will go down w/ time. I would really like a nice small tag for my car keys...

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[Joe Decker]

The takes are expected to cost $25 to produce, that doesn't mean they'll be sold for $25, probably more like $50. However, I agree with you that in time the price will drop, it always does.

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[garcia]

my ETrex Vista GPS unit will track things down to 3 ft or so. It typically does not work inside (in my apt. anyway) and even if it does, it's at like 40 to 60 ft.

GPS tracking for your keys wouldn't be terribly useful at that range.

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[swillden]

my ETrex Vista GPS unit will track things down to 3 ft or so.

I wish I'd had one of these things for tracking my eTrex Vista GPS unit, which I lost last week.

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[Machine9]

I am much more concerned about people placing these tags on/in your property -without- you knowing it.

I mean, it'd be ridiculously easy to stick one under a car with some duct tape for example.

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[yuvtob]

if you need to know in which '2-mile raidus' your keys are, you should invest in medication.

This has nothing to do with Apple.

[vasqzr]

If Paul Allen bought a wi-fi company would it be under Microsoft?

double standards at slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

when someone mentions RFIDs, everyone gets all up in arms about it, but when it's Steve Wozniak behind them (these things are basically an advanced form of RFIDs and can be used in much the same way), it's wahoo! go woz! you rock man!

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Jeremy Erwin]

RFID tags are applied by a retailer or manufacturer. The consumer has no choice in the matter, and may not be able to remove them. The WOZ tags, on the other hand, will presumably be bought by individuals who will be able to decide for themselves which items to track, and which to simply ignore.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[AntiOrganic]

You're also ignoring something here: We CONSENT to having these tags placed on something, and only what we want them placed on. No surprises here, and nothing's being tracked that we don't want tracked.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[BWJones]

when someone mentions RFIDs, everyone gets all up in arms about it, but when it's Steve Wozniak behind them (these things are basically an advanced form of RFIDs and can be used in much the same way), it's wahoo! go woz! you rock man!

RFID's are a tool. As such they can be useful or they can be abused just like any other tool. (cars, pharmaceuticals, guns, databases etc...etc...etc...). What Woz has done is created a paradigm whereby individuals can harness the power of this technology to enable their lives through their own choice as opposed to RFID technology being used without permission or knowledge.

You go Woz!

Re:double standards at slashdot

[plover]

What if that something is a 17-year-old daughter?

It's different if it's a dog, or your wallet, or your handgun. But what if it's a person who maybe doesn't want Mommy to know she drove to her boyfriend's house and has been parked at the local park for the last three hours instead of at the library with her study-buddies?

The lines get grayer.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Tumbleweed]

> Hate to break it to you, but Slashdot is not one homogenous entity.

Yes we are!

Oh, wait, I can't disagree with you if we're one homogenous entity.

Now I'm confused. Yes, _now_ I'm one with Slashdot! w00t! :)

Re:double standards at slashdot

[flynt]

What Woz has done is created a paradigm whereby individuals can harness the power of this technology to enable their lives

I'm suggesting you not attend any meetings where MBA's are present for at least 1 month starting immediately. It is your only hope at this point! Please call me if you need any support through your ordeal.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[mark_lybarger]

i'm not so sure there's a grey line there unless this is of a state where 17 is considered legal age. parents are responsible for their kids up till the age they leave the house. they're responsible to feed them and responsible for when they run a car into someone's mailbox. i believe they have an intrinsic right and responsibility to monitor their kids whereabouts, even if they need to use such discrete methods as this.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[mickwd]

I can't imagine much that will make your children hate you more than treating older teenagers like this. Not to mention the amount of teasing and bullying by other kids you will be setting them up for.

Please, let any kids you ever have live some sort of decent childhood.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[anthony_dipierro]

RFID tags are applied by a retailer or manufacturer. The consumer has no choice in the matter, and may not be able to remove them.

Once the consumer has purchased the product they can do whatever they want with them.

The WOZ tags, on the other hand, will presumably be bought by individuals who will be able to decide for themselves which items to track, and which to simply ignore.

I don't see why you presume that.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Jeremi]

Double standards or what.

Contrary to popular belief, there are multiple people with differing views posting to slashdot. Seeing these differing views expressed is NOT an indication of hypocrisy, it's an indication of diversity.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Suidae]

As a parent of small children, I plan on addressing this by equipping them with cell phones with GPS receivers and requiring that they answer that phone any time it rings, and that I can receive their GPS coords at any time. In return they will be allowed to go where they want, when they want (within alloweable hours regarding curfews and school, etc), and I won't badger them about what they were doing. All the better if the phone supports some kind of clandestined 'are you there' signal that would not be easily fooled in the case of abduction or other seperation of the phone from the correct person.

I would have taken this deal myself, gladly. I'm not so much worried about them doing stupid stuff (I did, and I've still got all my limbs and most of my brain cells) as I am about them doing something stupid, getting hurt or stranded, and not having an option for rescue.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Fear the Clam]

But geeks who actually go to the library can have a sweet little side business holding tracker buttons for the popular kids.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Lord Ender]

Yeah, we have no choice about RFID tags! Next thing you know, those privacy-destroying stores will be printing BARCODES on EVERYTHING! And the government will be assigning each citizen a distinct number so they can use their DATABASES on us!

Re:double standards at slashdot

[plover]

As parents of a fifteen year old son, my wife and I have found the best mechanism for addressing all of this are the same mechanisms our parents used: raise him well enough that we can trust him, and smart enough to avoid problems. Sure, I expect he's going to do something very stupid before he's 18 (or he won't do enough growing up,) but our hope is that the damage won't be permanent. So far, we've been very pleased with the results. He's a great kid, very responsible, very smart, and not a social leper (but definitely a geek-in-training.)

We gave him a cell-phone for his 15th birthday, but haven't placed any "you must answer under penalty of X" restrictions on him. It's mostly so he can call us if he feels like he's in trouble or in over his head. The only real use we've gotten out of it so far is that he can call us to give him a ride after the movie's over.

I personally think the promise of child-tracking devices are highly overrated; sales are driven by FUD news stories of "molesters" and "kidnappers". It's way better to keep an eye on your kids when they're little, and raise children you can trust when they're older.

Not a bad thing

[Raindance]

So, I was a little distressed that Woz, the archetype of the computer good guy, invented a way to track things- shadows of the 'digital angel' system, et cetera.

But this is local tracking, not global tracking, and that makes all the difference. It doesn't lend itself to big databases, cross-correlation, et cetera, and all the big evil things which are made possible with global tracking; it just helps you keep track of your own stuff.

Very cool Woz.

Re:Not a bad thing

[Troed]

This is a very bad thing. Kids _should_ be able to "sneak out" - it's part of growing up.

Overprotective parenting is extremely dangerous for a healthy upbringing.

Re:Not a bad thing

[kasparov]

Over-protective parents can lead to smarter kids. I should know, I had to learn to be *extra* sneaky with my parents. ;-)

Kids will always find ways to outsmart their parents. It's called progress!

Re:Not a bad thing

[superdan2k]

...It doesn't lend itself to big databases, cross-correlation, et cetera, and all the big evil things which are made possible with global tracking...

Sure it does...if you missed it, some of the coverage mentioned that multiple base stations can be linked together to provide a "neighborhood watch" function, which is pretty cool. From the sound of it, there's not much to stop you from linking up base stations on a nationwide network...the trick there, of course, is knowing which items you're looking for. Something like this would be great for tracking stolen bicycles, for example. A WozNet tag in the down tube makes it impossible to fuck with, short of cutting apart the frame, thereby ruining it.

You could do some other really cool shit, like keeping track of where bike racers are on a course at any given moment -- which would make more sense to Joe Average than telling him that Lance Armstrong (Vive Le Lance!) has a 35 second lead over Jan Ullrich.

Everyone gets all worried about Big Brother, of course, but Jesus Christ, do you think that the U.S. Government really gives a fuck about where your Trek Madone 5.9 or your limited edition X-Men #500 with the supermegaholographic RealPlatinum(TM) has run off to? Of course not.

If you want your Libertarian minimal-government-involvment society (as many Slashdot posters/readers seem to), you need to have a system in place to police yourself and your belongings. WozNet is one of those.

Re:Not a bad thing

[precogpunk]

I can see it now: kids will give their ID tags to friends to take to school while they play hooky, dogs will have to gnaw them off before jumping the fence and instead of looking out the window to see if your car is in the driveway you'll look at your computer screen.

Re:Not a bad thing

[LWATCDR]

"If you want your Libertarian minimal-government-involvment society (as many Slashdot posters/readers seem to)"

No I don't. People can not even be trusted in Sims on line not to be jerks. I like laws. We just have to find the right balance.

Re:Not a bad thing

[Jeremi]

So, I was a little distressed that Woz, the archetype of the computer good guy, invented a way to track things- shadows of the 'digital angel' system, et cetera.

I was distressed that Woz, the archetypical computer good guy, drives a Hummer, the archetypical symbol of everything that is wrong with American consumerism. (I can't wait for the "Hummer SR-71 edition", which will deliberately leak fuel onto the pavement while driving at low speeds, to facilitate faster acceleration)

Re:Not a bad thing

[carambola5]

Kids will always find ways to outsmart their parents. It's called progress!

First of all, we are forgetting the rule that kids are always smarter than their parents when it comes to computers. Always. Next, enter the fact that kids could construct their own nets and attach a tag somewhere underneath their parents' cars.

Can you say "proximity alert"? Works a helluva lot better with a range of 1 or 2 miles compared to hearing the garage door open.

yay, tracking!

[feed_me_cereal]

notifying the owner by phone or e-mail message when a child arrives at school

Yeah, it's a good thing kids don't have those pesky "rights" granted to other americans. God, I'm glad I didn't grow up in woz's brave new world...

Re:yay, tracking!

[keesh]

Those kids know how to use tinfoil, right?

Re:yay, tracking!

[dcg]

I would guess that you don't have kids.

Kids right to privacy from their parents ends where the parents responsibilities to ensure their safety and well being begin.

Re:yay, tracking!

[swillden]

Kids right to privacy from their parents ends where the parents responsibilities to ensure their safety and well being begin.

And children are not qualified to judge where this line is. Anyone who thinks that children's privacy shouldn't be subject to parental discretion is not a parent.

Re:yay, tracking!

[stienman]

Yeah, because if my fictitious nine year old decides to have a nike symbol tattooed on his forehead for cool clothes without my permission, then he should be able to do that.

I mean, come on. We can certianly trust children to make life altering and sometimes threatening decisions without our involvement.

Parents have a hard enough time keeping their children alive and well until they are past puberty (the age of bad decisions) and a little into their more stable years without adding jibes about how kids today are not much more than slaves.

I'm not saying I'd use Woz's service - I don't know, my children aren't old enough to be on their own. But you shouldn't dismiss it because it does have some potentially bad abuses.

Of course, you might have a double standard there. Perhaps you think it's ok to have file sharing even though it can be used in the commision of crimes, but not an object tracking service because it could be used in the commision of crimes?

I could understand your consternation if this tool only had bad uses, or was designed primarily for 'bad' purposes (ie, the handgun is a weapon whose primary design and use is killing or disabling human beings, but it does have other purposes, such as target practise so you can become better at killing humans instead of just disabling them - but it can be used in both offense and defense) but you can't claim that the service is a bad thing and will bring about Aldus Huxley's futurific version of reality.

We are a tool using species. Don't bemoan the tool, bemoan the uses.

-Adam

Re:yay, tracking!

[feed_me_cereal]

I would guess that you don't have kids.

Kids right to privacy from their parents ends where the parents responsibilities to ensure their safety and well being begin.

I would guess you don't know many other parents.

What you mentioned is all fine and good, and perhaps it would be nice to see your kids make it to school all safe and sound from your pc, but don't make the mistake that all parents are as altruistic as you may be. I imagine a great deal of parents will use these as house-arrest devices, tracking every movement of thier kids all the way through 18 years of age. I've met plenty of people who would, so don't tell me that's bullshit. Remember, "Parents responsibilities to ensure safety" are defined by the parents, and there are plenty of morons/assholes out there who will use these devices to some pretty sick ends. I've met some strange people who grew up under very repressive households; I could only imagine how much grief these devices would have added.

Succumbed to the Dark Side, Woz has....

[kremvax]

Although the description lists tenuous "Good" uses (tracking Children, the elderly, the insane )

the insidious uses outweigh these 10000 to 1.

Total (location) information awareness.

I feel safer already...

Kremvax

I-

[Mu*puppy]

I love Big Woz!

"Remember, Big Woz is watching... and wants you to buy a Segway."

Woz vs Joy

[swordgeek]

Most people here have read Bill Joy's article on "why the future doesn't need us." One thing he mentioned in the article is that he may have a moral directive in the near future to stop developing in the field he helped create, because it was doing more harm than good to society.

This is exactly how I see Woz's latest project. It sounds like something that has FAR more potential to be invasive and violating than it does to be useful. I'm a bit surprised, actually--Woz has always struck me as doing weird but cool stuff, not nasty stuff.

Anyways, it seems a sad day when one of the proto-geeks is forgetting to look at what he's actually doing from a larger perspective.

Re:Woz vs Joy

[swordgeek]

Hmm.

I never said that I agreed with Bill's view that we Must Stop Research in some fields, for the very same reason that you stated: It's going to happen. You can't stop it. If you try to prevent it, then it will likely be developed by the WORST group to have that sort of power, whatever it is.

That said, I do still believe that as technologists, we have a moral responsibility to at least look at the research we do. We can't stop it, but if we see the potential for danger, then we can potentially sidetrack it--push hard for development in the "good" ways, and development of the worst aspects will lag.

It's an interesting problem. We can't stop technology from arriving, but we can't (or at least I can't) morally justify throwing up our hands and saying, "oh well--nothing we could have done." If technology--hell, ANYTHING--is going to be an asset to society, then we have to thoughtfully approach it from a social aspect.

Slashdotter Internal Conflict

[mcc]

1) this is really, really evil and scary. i'm terrified by the idea of parents implanting these in their kids feet or something when they're tiny and knowing everything they do from that point forward. i'm even more terrified by the idea of corporations requiring the same of their employees, since that's something that could concievably, in an imperfect world, happen to me. i'm scared of vigilantes and criminals and government agencies secretly doing this to people they are targetting, leading to scenes like the one in the elevator in Enemy of the State.

2) But Steve Wozniak did this! Steve Wozniak is really cool and non-evil!

**head explodes**

Re:Slashdotter Internal Conflict

[Ahaldra]

I think F. S. Fitzgerald once said:

The test of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at once
and still retain the ability to function.

Apart from that, the picture of that WoZ-mark looks far bigger than these other evil 1mm RFID tags and are therefore far easier to detect. (so less likely to be used to invade your privacy)

Think of the possibilities...

[Dutchmaan]

You can know when your respective spouse leaves the house (for the paranoid) ...or you can know when your respective spouse approaches the house (for the paranoid)

For those who don't like to register:

[stienman]

Macworld UK says "WozNet is a lost cause"

Macworld has a pretty decent article

Cryptonomican bemoans the lack of information about security

Google has the goods

And there's even an article on Slashdot about it...

Last time I looked at it it was essentially a watch with both GPS and GSM (phone) built in so one could get the location of the watch at any time through their service. Sounds like a potentail DOS atack, though, if you obtain phone numbers or cell phone connection information (jamming signals, jamming GPS, etc)

Plus, since all the power is being used by the phone and GPS (chances are good the actual GPS processing is done elsewhere, like in the current E991 GPS services offered by phones) then it's unlikely that much encryption is being done at all.

-Adam

Or another excuse to not pay attention

[Cappy Red]

Introducing WozCrutch, a product with some good possible implementations, but that will be used more often for the bad. Let it watch your kids, pets, anyone or anything you care about, so you can forget to. They don't move as fast as you think they do anyway.

*honk*

Best of luck, be careful

[American AC in Paris]

Arrgh, it's the same old love/hate game again. Woz rocks, and I want him to succeed, but this little thing is exactly the kind of device that any number of unscrupulous/patriarchal legislators drool over.

The arguments for and against such tracking devices have been hashed out several gazillion times here on /., so I'll spare the replay, but there's one important difference here: this is Woz. He's no starry-eyed upstart CEO or engineering student; he's one of geekhood's geekiest, and he knows what he's doing (certainly as far as the tech end of things are concerned.) I think that he stands a good chance of making this thing work. It's exciting and frightening to think about.

Best of luck, Woz. Please be careful.

The possibilities for abuse are endless...

[Anonymous Coward]

mwah ha ha ha

1) Police put tracking devices on you... If anyone can get them, who's to say it was the police...

2) A stalker plants one in the victim's purse...

3) An election campaign plants them on the opposition's sign crew...

4) Agents provocateurs carry them in protests, making it so much easier to co-ordinate them...

5) You neighbour plants one on you, and calls the tipline whenever you happen to go through a bad neighbourhood, or near a mosque, hoping to get a reward...

And many more...

Re:The possibilities for abuse are endless...

[ndogg]

6) I'll not have to worry so much about losing my keys.

7) A group of people in a forest will be able to stay together easier, and thus be able to explore more.

8) Pets could be less likely to be lost.

9) Marathon runners could be tracked by audiences.

10) Parents could keep track of young kids in a store.

Overreacting much?

[Prince_Ali]

I don't understand the need to go off on how a technology is "Orwellian." (First off actually learn what the book is about before stating everything is out of 1984) This technology is not bad. It has potentially bad uses, but that doesn't matter. Complain when those bad uses actually occur (they probably won't). The government is not going to say, "Look the guy from Apple computers made this thing... time to put it on everyone in the country without them knowing about it."

I am aware that /. does not speak with one voice, but the general values expressed by its members are odd. If it is something that can be used for violating privacy (but hasn't) it is feared, but if something is used for piracy ALOT, it should be considered good regardless of the illegal nature of its use because it has non-infringing uses.

By the way, children have no right to privacy from their parents.

No offense, but...

[siskbc]

You're also ignoring something here: We CONSENT to having these tags placed on something, and only what we want them placed on. No surprises here, and nothing's being tracked that we don't want tracked.

...that's obscenely naive. So what's stopping me from putting one on your car and knowing everywhere you go? What if your wife does it? What if your boss does it? See, there's nothing at all that implies consent here.

I'm sure Woz was trying to do something cool, and believe me I would love to know where my fscking keys and remote are like everyone else, but there are some more nefarious uses that will be among the first applications for the device.

Re:No offense, but...

[bhawbaker]

how different is that from hiring a detective to track your wife which you can do now :)

Re:No offense, but...

[Pirogoeth]

So what's stopping me from putting one on your car and knowing everywhere you go?

Or even worse, something like this which happened in my hometown.

that's one out of three...

[pb]

Now all we need is a 6MW laser and a large, spinning mirror, and we can vaporize a human target from space!

The good, the bad, and the Woz

[xThinkx]

Just like everything Woz comes up with, I don't think it's fair to call this a "good" or a "bad" thing yet.

Right away I'm sure the privacy guys are jumping up and down, and I can't say I blame them. This chip would make it a complete bitch to hook class and/or work.

BUT at the same time, it'd be real nice to hide one of these suckers in my car (I know lowjack exists, but from the article it appears this tech will deliver much better performance) in case it would get stolen. Throwing these things in handhelds and laptops could also be a godsend. Hey, those things are about the size of a keychain, no more looking for your keys ever again.

Again, it's not possible now, or maybe ever to render judgment on this technology. However, Woz better be damn sure to regulate who can and can't locate said devices (how many men want their wives/girlfriends to know their every moves?). 100 years from now we'll look back at Woz as one of the great innovators of our time

Re:now that i'm a parent.

[hobbesmaster]

Its parents like you that give us high school geeks social status. ;)

Can you say CIRCUMVENTION?

[thanq]

The tags "will be able to generate alerts, notifying the owner by phone or e-mail message when a child arrives at school(...)

I can BET that once those tags are out kids will figure out how to fool them. The simplest thing comes to mind right away.... Because the system tracks TAGS and not KIDS, young ones figure out a good scheme: give the tag to a "keeper" for few classes and then skip school. Once you come back, pick up the tag from the keeper and go home without attending school, all while the parents think their loved one is learning.

Same thing with the dog... Bet someone soon would yell out:

"Honey come quick, I think sparky died under this tree, he has not been moving for 4 hours already.." Just moments before learning that the tag lies in a pile of poo after Sparky ate it and then... well.. put it out throug the other end.

Re:Can you say CIRCUMVENTION?

[stienman]

A device I saw which claims to do the same thing (could be the same) was a watch that is locked onto the persons arm - it can be unlocked manually or remotely, but requires a key of some sort or an unlock command for central.

Just wrap tinfoil around it, or better yet, slam it against every wall you walk past. Eventually it'll get too expensive to replace, and the old fashioned methods of checking up on your own kids yourself and becoming involved in their lives will again become common.

-Adam

Re:Can you say CIRCUMVENTION?

[stmfreak]

I can BET that once those tags are out kids will figure out how to fool them. The simplest thing comes to mind right away.... Because the system tracks TAGS and not KIDS, young ones figure out a good scheme: give the tag to a "keeper" for few classes and then skip school. Once you come back, pick up the tag from the keeper and go home without attending school, all while the parents think their loved one is learning.

Sure and the ruse goes on for weeks and the kid thinks they're soooo smart and have their parents fooled. Then mom gets a call from the principal asking why little-billy hasn't been attending home-economics for the last few weeks and the game is up. Mom does a surprise visit to school to check on billy and finds out that while his TAG is in home-economics, billy is not.

Billy is now soooooo busted and his parents have learned that Billy is not the responsible little boy they thought he was, despite all his assurances. Privileges disappear and Billy has to work his ass off to make up for lost grace with the folks.

Monitoring kids is not about Big Brother or just putting a hammer down on them, it's about monitoring their development into adults. It's about determining if your children are ready for life's next set of challenges, like car keys or extended curfews, or making their own decisions regarding money or friends.

It's not to be confused with Big Brother snooping because it is individually applied, not one size fits all. Most importantly, kids eventually grow up, leave home and can throw off the leash. There is no light at the end of the tunnel with Big Brother spying on us.

I would really like to have this sort of system for my children just so I know where they are. Not, "what are they doing" snooping, but in a, "I haven't seen billy in a while, I wonder if he's okay? Oh, he's on I-5 heading south, better call the police now" way of caring. Our kids blow through their curfew frequently. It would be nice to know whether to head South, North, East or West when we go out looking for them, or whose house to call. I can see this sort of thing actually increasing freedom of movement for children because the act of "reporting in" which they do so poorly, would be automatically taken care of by technology.

And when they circumvent it, you know they're ready for one of those, "importance of trust" talks.

where did I leave my base station?

[Cappy Red]

Keys are a fairly common thing to lose... but I lose everything else too. If I got one of these it would just mean that I'd have to have a tag for the base station.

Maybe I should just forgo material possessions so I can get all my stuff back. It would be easier... and cheaper.

*bork*

How long..?

[cspenn]

And how long until WozNet becomes subpoena'd for records by the Department of Homeland Security?

Yes, each cluster is locally administered, not by a large agency, but there's nothing saying that implementations of the pager/SMS/email must require cc:jashcroft@doj.gov...

Food for thought.

Many uses

[Mu*puppy]

Spot has left the yard.
Activate shock collar? Yes/No
You have chosen Yes. Spot has returned to the yard.

Your son Scott has driven the car to a remote location with Susie L. (Ref. # 1098345723) and has entered the back seat with her, probably to screw her brains out.
Administer punishment? Yes/"HELL yes!"

Re:Many uses

[Suidae]

Actually the problem was that Suzie L.'s ID had a picture, and the kid would have been better off with Spot.

how the hell am I supposed to feel about this?

[jjeffries]

I mean, tracking is pure evil, but the Woz can do no wrong!

Immovable object, meet irresistable force.

my brain hurts! HELP!!! CALL -151!

Location Aware Devices

[TwP]

Put one of these in your laptop and it will become "location aware". When you are at home and login, your home settings will be automatically loaded by the machine. When you are at work and login, your work settings will be automatically loaded. At the local coffee shop? Same thing.

It will also function as a lo-jack device for small and expensive personal stuff: laptops, ipods, cell phones, etc.

Did they figure out weak signal GPS though? If not, then the device will not work indoors and will severely limit its applications.

Sweet.

[NeoPotato]

I'm gonna tag all my socks before I dry them. Now I can finally find out where they go when the dryer eats them!

Is it small enough for a cat collar?

[foyle]

With something like this I may finally be able to find out just where it is that the cat goes when he demands to be let out at 4am.

And for only $25, I won't care too much when he loses it.

Good use/Bad Use

[Metroid72]

Good Use: Never wait for a bus in the cold again. Bad Use: Comfirm when your husband is having extra cold ones with the boys Good Use: Ultimate car anti-theft device. Bad Use: No more Hooters escapades when going to MacWorld/TechEd/LinuxWorld Good Use: The new cell-phone add-on enhances 911 emergency service - especially for ill senior citicens. Bad Use: Why is the congressman's dot flashing in the coordinates of the Bunny Ranch? Good Use: Let your wife and daughter roam in the mall while you check the big boy's toys. Bad Use: Hmmm... My husband said he was working late, but why is he at the Motel 8? And Finally! Kobe, take your hands off her, your wife's dot is getting closer.

I told you so!

[Thud457]

See???!!! This is what I've been warning you about, WOZ has finally revealed himself to be THE BEAST DESCRIBED IN REVELATIONS!!!

"Cats and dogs living together in sin! It's in the Bible people, look it up!!!"

Re:I told you so!

[paganizer]

I'm a lot more paranoid than the next guy (who IS out to get me, BTW), but given The Great Woz's history, I would be hard pressed to name someone I would trust MORE at the controls of a big brother type apparatus.
Seriously, if Bill Gates or Steve Jobs or Donald Trump, etc started something like this, there would be no doubt in ANYONES minds that they had plans to take over the world.
But Woz I can see doing this to keep kids safe, and not allowing the system to be abused.
And no, I hate Mac.

Is this so bad?

[El]

As the proud parent of a 2.5 year old who has just learned how to steal her mom's keys and unlock the deadbolt on the front door so she can wonder off through the neighborhood without permission, I'd have to say that tracking devices are not such a bad idea. Especially since that deadbolt was installed after her slipping out twice, once to be found several blocks away, and once after playing in the neighbor's water feature in 45 degree weather. There are times when you REALLY want to know exactly where your kid is!

Re:Is this so bad?

[Machine9]

I don't know man, but maybe you could watch them?

that's worked pretty well over the millennia...

Re:Is this so bad?

[LoveMuscle]

I dunno. Maybe taking a crap, or taking a shower? Its not physically possible to "check on the kids" every 2 minutes for the next 8 years, and the little guys are faster than you'd think.

I break to take a piss and my nephew (who isn't even walking yet) has managed to get out of the room, clear down the hall, and out the front door.. If you aren't watching them for more that 10 seconds they'd better be locked up somewhere or there gonna get out...

You clearly haven't spend much time around children so, maybe you should STFU..

Re:Is this so bad?

[sabernar]

Damn, I have mod points, but none of the options says "-1 Bad Parent"

Re:Easy to defeat.

[ralico]

I'm not sure what to do about the ones they're putting in car tires now, though.
Get a really BIG microwave?

Implications

[Gnaythan1]

with location being part of the packet information sent through wireless networks... wouldn't p2p applications be able to connect wirelessly to each other without needing to go through any sort of ISP? They'd just have to consult a (relatively) small database to send information to other wireless devices that are "closer" to the designated target.

If all the information (except location) is encrypted, and all devices assisting in switching packets don't log where they actually send the info (for more than a few minutes)... this would paradoxically do wonders for privacy. It'd be hell to troubleshoot lost packets though.

Example: A packet is sent from wireless device "foo" to wireless device "bar", many miles away. It sends a short range (perhaps a mile) signal to every wireless in range... Packet A shows in its header info the location it's trying to reach. The wireless devices that are closer to "foo" send a signal back saying they are relaying, and transfer it another mile closer to "bar"... this goes on till "bar" sends a signal back saying "I got it" reversing tracks... after the devices connect, some algorythm takes place that chooses which connections were most useful, and the next Foo-Bar targets devices that helped out the most in the last relay, to speed things up a bit.

Woz is the beast!

[Stonent1]

I'll prove it!
W = 23
O = 15
Z = 26
Total = 64
The original Apples used 6502 processors.
Number of years past since his last professional beard trim : 5
We remove the 5 from 6502 and that leaves us with 602.

602 + 64 = 666 !

How about firefighters?

[anthony_dipierro]

I wonder if this could be included on firefighter equipment to track firefighters inside a burning building. How expensive are the receivers? Surely $25/tag isn't too much for a department to spend. But maybe the receiver would cost too much. How well do they work indoors? I'd imagine the GPS part is useless indoors.

who can afford to set up the network?

[alizard]

I think all of us, including the Woz, know the answer to that.

Sounds perfect for Homeland Security funding.

Well, if one is going to sell out, it's reasonable to get the best price one can.

Apparently Wozniak was far more unhappy about not becoming a billionaire like others far less talented in technology than he ever told the press.

I remember looking into an IWM (integrated woz machine) on an Apple II design and seeing a work of engineering art.

Times have changed.

Paranoia thy name is siskbc

[Llywelyn]

"...that's obscenely naive. So what's stopping me from putting one on your car and knowing everywhere you go? What if your wife does it? What if your boss does it? See, there's nothing at all that implies consent here. "

The technology for this has been available for years, to the general public, just not in quite this nice or unified a form.

I'm sure the tech isn't far behind to scan for these little bugs, so why worry?

After all, big brother is watching, so there's no need to panic ;-)

Totally different things

[SuperKendall]

RFID tags are simply a passive device that anyone can query where and what they are (though of course the devices themselves know nothing about location, that would have to be inferred by the sensors or other processing).

From the reading, wOz chips are intelligent devices that know where they are (remember they are built with a cheap GPS core) - and will only tell selected base stations. Thus only YOU know where or what something is, and have the option to let others know as well (as when linking base stations, there probably is some mechanism to pass around keys to let other base stations ask devices where they are). Even then only YOU know WHAT something is - because you are the one putting the tags on.

It's a difference of dumb and pervasive vs. smart and targeted.

Here is what I want to know.

[mcc]

Given this whole wireless thing, how difficult would it be to rig a device that just checks to see how many WozNet devices there are in the immediate area-- say, 10 feet-- and where they are?

That way paranoids or children could just scan their cars/backpacks/whatever for WozNet trackers, and if they find one present, they can pinpoint its location for removal.

I wondered the same thing about RFID tags-- i wouldn't care at all about the privacy problems if once i'd bought it i could take it home and use some handscan device to scan to see where the RFID is, then barrage it with microwaves or something until it stops responding.

However, I am pretty sure with RFID that there's no way an RFID could be designed such that it would have any choice but to broadcast its presence-- it just discharges energy collected from radio waves, so it seems like there's no way you could tag something with an RFID such that the purchaser would be unable to find the RFID just by sending out hellos on low-frequency radio, but the tagger can talk to the RFID by sending out a secret code or something. Right?

I don't know if the same applies to WozNet. They haven't really given much information on how these devices work and talk to each other. Is there info somewhere on how they communicate? Would just rigging something up to a laptop that universally identifies what all the nearby woznet devices are be easy? I don't see anything on their site that would indicate either way...

Re:WOZ, dont do it!

[matlokheed]

This is hard to make invasion of privacy out of. It's completely voluntary and that's what makes it non-evil.

The initial thoughts from most people is for watching their children and I think it's amazing how many people think that's wrong. I know way too many parents who's burnout kids are their burnout kids because their parents weren't paying enough attention. Kids are stupid and unpredictable. When a friend's brother ran away from home with his underage girlfriend, I'm sure his parents would've loved one of these things. Or the other brother who was a druggie and would disappear for days on end, skipping school... you don't think this would have big advantages?

This isn't the evil government watching us. It's on too small a scale and most importantly, it's voluntary. How would anyone organize the tracking into useful data? What if I switch around what I mark, so one week my keys are one tag and the next it's my bike... and then my cat.

If it becomes government mandated, then yes, it becomes evil. But for now? What's the problem with it?

Clarification

[El]

1) The double locking deadbolt was installed immediately after the first incident. The second occured when my wife failed to lock it ("You mean, it doesn't lock itself when you close the door?")
2) Both incidents occured while I was at work. (And I assure you, you don't know what helpless frustration is until you get a call from your wife telling you in panic mode that the baby is missing -- and you're an hour away from home!)
3) All those people saying "bad parenting" have obviously never been responsible for watching small children 24/7. They're also obviously not familiar with my child! She is extremely agile and athletic, and could cover a couple blocks in less than a minute (I've already taken her out running for about 2 miles. Her run == my fast walk). My wife works nights as a nurse, and has to shower, go to the bathroom, clean house, cook, and do laundry all while watching the baby. I myself tend to not do anything else while watching her, so she gets into far less trouble on my watch. I have also taken pains to make introduce her to everyone in the neighborhood and make sure they know where she lives, so that they can return her.
4) Humans as a species have survived for millions of years despite not making a full-time job out of watching the kids -- perhaps most kids are better at taking care of themselves than we give them credit for.

there's already technology for that problem

[BreadMan]

Get one of of those cheap latches, mount it 12 inches from the TOP of the door. The kids can't figure out how to make stable tower high enough to reach the latch. Problem solved for about $1.50.

I have three small children^W escape artists and this stops them cold.

And no posts about how terrible a parent this person is, kids wait until you're in the bathroom to pull these stunts off.

Stop freaking out

[naner42]

Many of you are riled up because it'll be used to track kids, whether they like it or not. IT'S NOT LIKE WE'RE PUTTING THESE THINGS IN A SUPPOSITORY COATED WITH SUPER GLUE AND ASKING OUR KIDS TO PICK UP THE SOAP! It's a removable device, not a subdermal implant.
This would be great for backpacks, lunch boxes, etc. I used to leave my backpack in the library all the time then freak out. This has great aplications for college and high school campuses.
Just like every other technology out there, it's got good and bad uses. You can argue which side outweighs the other until the cows come home but it won't do any good. If you like the idea: BUY IT. If you don't, spend your money on an aluminum foil leotard.
And just like any other tracking device, you'll be able to find a "bug finder." If you think your ex-wife put one on your car, scan your car or take it to the local "Paranoia-Is-Us" and have them do it. Same thing for your underwear drawer or your red swingline stapler.
For every technology invented, there will be counter-measures created and distributed.

So.. I'm a bad boy..

[bigattichouse]

I get "tagged" by my parents... its not making sure *I* get to school.. just that my tag does.. so I pay (or bully) someone to take the thing to school for me.

Wozniak and Gibson

[TygerFish]

The debate that arises from Steven Wozniak's company and its innovation is nothing new and neither are the debates surrounding it. The potential convenience applications that the device offers are swallowed up and ignored in the face of the device's obvious potential for applications in security and surveillance.

The most intriguing aspect of all the back-and-forth in the debate is that it is not demonstrable that either side is wrong. What the article in the Times shows is only the prototype of a short-range locator device with the potential for information transfer.

As an examination of William Gibson's work reveals, the problem is one of increasing efficiency and efficacy in that as the technologies behind the technology become more sophisticated--as the devices become smaller and achieve greater range, information-transfer potential and ubiquity--their potential usefulness and their potential for danger can only increase.

William Gibson's main perception in one of his least-enjoyable stories, 'The Gernsbach Continuum,' contains the central idea of his one of his most important themes: 'the street finds it's own uses for things.'

Gibson's greatest perceptions is that technical innovations in the use and shaping of society in unpredictable ways that the creators of the technology can't foresee and can't consider as the humble telephone pager illustrates.

Originally, the pager allowed busy people to whom other people needed access to get out of their offices and hospitals. It freed doctors and lawyers to either live more life or get more done. The unpredictable, socially transformative downside of the technology entered into the equation the moment it became available to the masses.

Among the many changes that the spread of pager technology made was that it made drug-dealers a lot safer and set the police new problems: instead of having to stay in one place where they and their contacts could be subject to observation or chained to specific telephone landlines that could be tapped by law-enforcement agencies, the pager cut the link between the drug-dealer and his territory and allowed street-level dealers to arrange meetings with their clients in locations of their own choosing.

This phenomenon was the source of a small but very real transformation in society as the rise of cheap pagers changed things. A block of Motorola circuitry in a casing, changed society; it changed the notion of presence and absence and leisure time and physical distance. It changed the law and investigative procedure, the notion of privacy and tens of other things that no one had any tiniest inkling might spring up from using radio receivers attached to a POTs telephone system to transmit phone numbers.

As it concerns the debate here, it is easy to see that the notes talking about pedophiles are actually a valid cause of concern as are a thousand other things that are just as wonderful as the police's finding a lost child and just as dangerous as a pedophile's doing the same that we'll just have to wait for.

Keep your pimp hand strong with WozNet!!!

[crazyhorse44]

Imagine the possibilities for pimps:

monitor all your hos... know when they're working it and when you need to go put the smack down. plus you can tell how many cars they got in and how much they need to be coughing up once you roll past in your Caddy.