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DVD Player With DVI Output
ffierling writes "Why are there no big name DVD Players with digital video outputs? With all the available digital displays (LCD, plasma, DLP, etc) and the obvious benefits of an all-digital connection, it's easy to conclude the threat of litigation from copyright holders is holding up the big name manufacturers. So how is it V Inc. can sell their Bravo D1 DVD Player with DVI output? Are they below the MPAA's radar, or just quicker to market?"
and it's only $199. very nice!
Creationists are a lot like zombies. Slow, but powerful and numerous. And they all want to eat our brains.
Fool! DVI is an encrypted data stream!
See this PDF for more information:
http://www.ddwg.org/if/data/0830991.pdf
-molo
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
When this thing is offered in the USA with Macrovision disabled, all regions playable at any time, and no forced chapters, then I'll whip out my VISA and buy one. But not until then.
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I have a DVD player with DVI out. The fan is a little noisy and the case is kind of ugly. Also I don't have anything with DVI in.
As usual, Homer says it best.
"I'm a White male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me, no matter how dumb my suggestions are." -Homer eating Nuts 'n' Gum
If the market demands it, the features will be there.
Not anymore...
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
If you pick up last month's Official Xbox Magazine they did a review and gave it a 9.0 out of 10 score. Apparently they loved it. If you want more information on it, track down someone with the magazine.
The main problem I have with this DVD player is that it DOESN'T seem to be available in many, if any, retail outlets.
There are additional boards available to hack most decent DVD's players so they output SDI, which is a raw professional 270Mbps standard for digital interconnects. Most broadcast quality Plasma screens include an SDI input, and companies like Delphi produce them for the consumer market, and I've seen DVB-s digital tv set-top-boxes also hacked for SDI output, they look very good since the needless D>A>D process is removed.
Not true - Samsung has the DVD-HD931 which has been out on the market for a few months now. It has DVI output.
The Bravo D1 is better, but hey.
Expect other large consumer electronics manufacturers to have their models out within a few months.
To some of us following the home theater scene, the Bravo D1 may be old news ;), but I can understand that it may not be common knowledge. In any case, the Home Theater Forum is a great resource in general and it has a couple threads on this player as well. Of note from that second link is that the Bravo is not the only DVI player on the market:
Alex Bischoff
HTML/CSS coder for hire
To add an extra output a manufacturer has to incorporate additional technology, redesign circuitry and the backpanel, test the whole setup, etc.
This isn't a fantastic amount to do - after all, this is probably a minor upgrade to most manufacturers - but it is rather pointless if 99.99 percent of your target audience won't even know what the port can be used for, let alone actually use it.
And why spend the time and effort incorporating an $5 (for argument's sake) upgrade if it makes next to no difference on how many units you'll sell? Right now, that $5 pe4r unit is lost profit in what's already a very cut-throat industry.
As DVI is a fairly new development (at least to the average home electronics consumer) it'll be a while before there's a major demand for DVI outputs on DVD players, etc. Gradually though, the major manufacturers will add DVI support, initially at the top of their ranges, then later throughout their catalogues.
In the end, it comes down to supply and demand. Right now, there's very little demand for DVI support. But you can bet the farm that by the time there actually is critical mass demand for DVI support it'll be there across the board.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
However even if it did I dont expect the result to be much superior than the analog RGB VGA output for the simple reason that the DVD disk doesn't have any more info than that.
for example if you try to play a dvd on an XGA or SXGA system it looks WORSE(!) than on the lower resoultion SVGA. the reason is very simple , the dvd has to interpolate the pixels and does a bad job when the image is changing quickly. SVGA is optimal for DVD , and XGA is optimal for HDTV.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
"Why are there no big name DVD Players with digital video outputs?"
You mean like a computer?
Sorry, go fish.
The DVI standard includes a digital mode and this player is using it.
-Dave
What's most funny is that no one today would likely think of "ripping" a DVD from a capture card, just because all it takes is a $50 DVD drive and a braindead piece of software. And yet the manufacturers stick by their "no RGB" guns as if it actually means something.
BTW my "DVD player" does have RGB outputs. It also has a macrovision-less s-vid output.
Duh...
The reasoning behind using DVI and upconversion is that many HDTV's will upconvert 480p to 1080i or 720p internally (this is most common on DLP, LCD, Plasma, LCOS and other non-CRT technologies). By converting it internally before the digital stream is converted to analog, you should get a better conversion, or in theory you can add an external scaler (say an iScan or anything from Faroudja) and output a digital 480p signal for it to scale instead of an analog one.
The Bravo D1 is the first, and currently has better quality than Samsung, but it won't be the last for long. Popular rumor has Denon coming out with a universal DVD player (DVD, DVD-A, SACD) with DVI output (with HDCP) by the end of the year, but if the HDCP compatibility issues keep up, I wouldn't be surprised to see it be delayed. Of course, HDMI (High Definition Multimedia Interface) is what I can't wait for. One cable the size of a USB connector that can carry an HDTV signal and 8 channels of audio, so long cable mess!
Until a large percentage of TV's start having DVI input, DVI output for consumer grade DVD players (or any other video player) is pointless from the economic standpoint.
In addition, component optical output is already far and away high enough quality to render the need for DVI moot.
The only TV-class displays that I know of which feature DVI inputs are flatpanel LCD and some flatpanel plasma displays... which are far more expensive than I can justify when compared to a comparably priced rear projection or CRT set.
I browse Slashdot at +3, Funny
As other have mentioned, firewire can be copy restricted, using and encrypted in transport. Also, it's a high bandwidth, uncompressed data stream, which is not easy to copy.
The MPAA still does exert some control here, as you can tell from the lack of DVD players with FireWire interfaces. mitsubishi has been talking about them for years, to fit into their cool Havi system. But, because of the all the MPAA usage restriction hysteria, they can't bring one to market.
Also, they block any analog outputs over 480P (e.g. component video, YPrPb, outputs at 720P or 1080i). These are analog outputs, which are not easily copied (try recording your VGA out). But, they still won't allow them because of the CSS license restrictions and lack of Macrovision.
This is also closely related to why you cannoy buy an HDTV DirecTV receiver with a Firewire output, and thus cannot record HDTV programs off satellite. The technology has been viable for years, D-VHS recorders are available and cheap, but the content providers prevent DirecTV from adding this feature. This slows down the adoption of HDTV, and stifles innovation. Don't you just love the MPAA?
A: Because the movie/tv industry is deathly afraid of it.
The promise of FireWire is a single cable, and an intelligent system, connecting all of your electronics devices together. Not just final output (like DVI), or tied to a host (like USB), but a peer-to-peer, universal, high speed bus that can carry content as well as control data. Any of your devices can communicate with one another, and, where applicable, control or send information to one another - all the while sending pristine digital content.
DVI is more attractive to some because it's a final output format, with less fundamental chance of being manipulated or captured by anything else. And copy protection can be enforced in the "monitor" or display device, if need be...FireWire could connect all of your equipment, including your computer, appliances, and more. It could even do it wirelessly.
Imagine one single, intelligent cable chain connecting all of your entertainment equipment - no more rat's nest of endless cabling, no more dumb devices unaware of anything but themselves...that is one of the purposes, and the promise, of FireWire.
Are they below the MPAA's radar /.)
Uhm, not anymore.... (that's assuming MPAA reads
SGtHT did a review with a couple of DVD players using DVI. Their conclusion: for 480p it just doesn't matter.
When DVD's are 720p or 1080i, then it may.
Whenever the offence inspires less horror than the punishment, the rigour of penal law is obliged to give way...
DVI output from a DVD player? What kind of CUPS driver do you need for this thing? But more importantly, how much paper would you need?
The neutrality of this sig is disputed.
I'm guessing the reason it looks worse is that your projector can't handle those resolutions, therefore it's the PROJECTOR which is trying to down-scale the image to fit it to SVGA, etc.
I have a XVGA DLP and it looks much better @ 1024x768 than at 800x600 because PowerDVD does a very nice job upscaling the image. If I try to send 1600x1200 to the 1024x768 DLP then it looks like ass, not because of the player, but because of the DLP down-conversion.
ALWAYS watch at the NATIVE resolution of your DLP for the best picture quality. Period.
Most folk'll never lose a toe, and then again some folk'll...
Typo Correction: the first line should read "As other have mentioned, DVI can be copy restricted, using and encrypted in transport. Also, it's a high bandwidth, uncompressed data stream, which is not easy to copy." (substiture DVI for Firewire).
The difference being: DVI is an uncompressed digital output - for connection to a display device. Since it's uncompressed, it runs at gigabit/second speeds, and is difficult to copy.
Firewire runs at 400Mbps (the new apple PC's have 800Mbps firewire), and is typically used for transferring compressed data streams (usually MPEG2) and for general networking between devices. Some displays have built-in HD tuners, and take firewire as input. For example, the Mitsubishi HDTV's. In this case, DVI is not needed, because the HDTV stream is sent over the firewire, and decoded in the internal tuner. It is then passed internally to the display, so protected DVI is not needed.
If the display does not have an internal tuner, it would have an external HD Set Top Box (STB). The STB is connected to the TV via DVI, and connected to a recorder, or other A/V devices, via firewire.
Not true. If you look at the spec for Macrovision, it encompasses about 7 or 8 layers (features) some of which are analog in nature (twisting chroma phase, screwing with the black level) and some are purely digtal and are present as detectable signatures in a decoded stream of digital video. Take a look if you don't believe me.
-- You are in a maze of little, twisty passages, all different... --
Here's a thought. Why can't some manufacturer use DeCSS or qrpff or one of those bad boys.
Because it's in a consumer player, with no mass storage or connectivity save the A/V outputs, the MPAA would have a damn hard time making the argument that it's piracy. And they wouldn't have to pay the license fee to the DVD-CSS consortium either!
The only reason we have the rights we have is that people just like us died to gain those rights. -- Cheerio Boy
I dont think this player is that hot. Check out the KiSS DP-500 which additionally supports DVD-RW and DVD+RW (the Bravo only supports DVD+-R), OGG and Divx 3.11, 4 and 5. The DP-500 also comes with a 10/100 ethernet port so that you can stream audio, video and jpegs directly from your computer. There's also a webradio feature to stream directly from the internet.
Yes there are still a few bugs in the software, as someone mentioned above, but they are slowly being worked out with new software releases.