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Phone or Tracking Device?
Red Wolf writes "The first major commercial service that traces people's locations using their mobile phones -- mapAmobile -- is designed more to ease the minds of worried parents and suspicious bosses than to enable unauthorised spying."
That's how it always starts. As more and more companies use it, and when corporations finally control it, those safeguards will slowly be peeled away in the name of security and efficiency - by then it will be so common that most of us probably won't even notice the loss of privacy at all, and others will even encourage it in order to help catch criminals.
FP
I am more worried about the 2005 law that requires GPS/triangulation in all cell phones for 911 call locating. Here's a link to an article in Popular Science about China and how people were using their cell phones to find out which buildings were infected with SARS.
.02
People play a game where you "kill" a nearby person after you locate them using your cell phone equipped with GPS. Just what I want, ANYONE to be able to locate me on the street (opt-in service or not isn't my point).
The first major wave of location services could beam to the U.S. as early as Christmas, when 44 percent of the nation's 149.2 million cellphone subscribers are expected to be traceable, according to the research firm In-Stat/MDR.
No thanks, I would prefer to die after placing a call to 911 rather than have whoever decide that they want to track me via GPS/triangulation.
Live free or die.
Just my worthless
Sorry, but "easing the mind of a suspicious boss" is still "unauthorized spying" by any reasonable definition of the term.
Roving Web-Teleoperated Robot
I find the wording of the press release ironic.
;)
<paraphrase>
This device isn't really for spying, it's more to allow parents to spy
on their children, and employers to spy on their employees.
</paraphrase>
They of course fail to mention that if the technology were available, a judge
could easily grant a warrant to allow authorities to observe your
movements without notifying you.
In many ways this is worse than Orwellian, because at least in
Orwell's vision, you could still hide from the cameras or escape to
places that didn't have cameras on them. With this device if you had
it on (assuming it works as well as they claim (doubtful)) they could
pinpoint your location all the time. I guess you could just leave it
in your office while you went to play that round of golf and say you
were in a meeting.
Still this technology is simply a herald of more instrusive technology
to come. Move over Orwell, the future may be worse than you imagined.
As someone said in an earlier story, doubleplusungood.
Doug Tolton
"The destruction of a value which is, will not bring value to that which isn't." -John Galt
I keep my cell phone encased in lead.
Make me a friend and I'll mod you up
How long will it take before there's a option on the mobile device to disable this? Even if they don't offer it, I'm sure it'll be hacked pretty quick.
Or a novel idea, turn the phone off!.
I'm sure it will work better and more casually than the tracking device I have bolted around my teenage son's ankle!
(\_/)
(O.o) This is Bunny. (> <)
I wonder how this works since SIM cards are pretty small. Regardless, I like it.... to a point. Where I work, we have a lot of people who drive a lot of miles in their own cars. At $.365/mile, this adds up quickly (almost $1200/month). Even still, almost all of them cheat padding their monthly miles, or taking a very long route to get someplace. If they KNEW that they could be tracked, it might give honesty a kick in the pants. Where I don't like it is when someone is spied upon and never told. That's just not cool.
How do you know that just because you can't make calls or see anything on the screen the phone is really off? It might even have a small internal battery that charges off the main battery and powers the tracker when the main battery is disconnected.
Jason
ProfQuotes
is designed more to ease the minds of worried parents and suspicious bosses than to enable unauthorised spying."
/., we say it's alright to use the Xbox as a home PC even though that's not what it was designed for. For that very reason alone, I am 100% sure that this will be used to infringe on at least one person's privacy.
And Kazaa is really just designed to transfer information back and forth. It's not Sharman Network's fault that it gets used to infringe on an incredible number of copyrights.
Let's face it, just because it was designed to ease parents and bosses, that's no guarantee whatsoever that they will not be used to violate one's civil liberties. RFIDs are designed to help stores keep inventory and make checkouts easier, but they can be easily abused to "see" what someone is wearing on his person.
We champion the right to use products in nonstandard ways all the time here at
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world.
..but if you are really interested in moving around throughout this land of ours with being tracked by big brother's watchful eye in the sky, then you can LEAVE YOUR NOKIA AT HOME.
It's a no-brainer.
--
AT&T Wireless has had this for quite some time. It's called find-a-friend, and it lets you locate and be located by other AT&T GSM customers that you specify. I do have a GSM/GPRS phone with AT&T and I've read a little about the feature, but never used it.
... for location tracking always include the ability to have someone else get ahold of this information. This is why I don't have a cell phone. In theory, they could track what cell tower I was connected to anyway, and get a rough idea of my location. Granted, a normal POTS line has a definite endpoint, but it's not one that is carried around.
I can see benefits to this technology, since 911 operators will have an easier time dispatching emergency personnel, and it might even be useful for delivery drivers to know if the destination is legitimate. Other than that, though, I see so much possible abuse that I don't want to see this technology in use.
I would be cool with a cell phone having a GPS receiver built in, so I could find out where I am and tell the caller, but they should not be able to gain that information without my approval.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
to use this when waking up after a huge drinking binge to find out where the hell I am.
Of course, what value is coerced consent? The two groups of people this is clearly intended to be used on -- children and employees -- will not be 'consenting' in any kind of free manner.
'Consent because I'm your legal guardian and can consent on your behalf' and 'Consent or lose your job' don't really count as consent in my book.
The cellphone is becoming a tool for employers to squeeze away the last vestiges of a personal life for their employees. First is the expecation of being contactable at all hours, day or night, instantaneously (and thus the expectation that people will never be doing anything they can't be called away from). Now, they can't just contact you, they can find out where you are, at any moment, and without your knowledge.
And as for those of us living in the United States, you really think the Justice Dept. isn't going to press for access to this kind of thing -- with as little judicial safeguards as they can get away with?
Ugh.
Can you see me now? Can you see me now?
--"The perfect example of the man of action is the suicide." - William Carlos Williams
Just look at the policy coming from the Pentagon. Only a schoolboy could come up with those justifications and excuses.
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
1) You have the right to question the vendor of a product your buying and determine whether or not you want this.
2) No one is making this a standard it is a company doing what they want, so I don't see the big hoorah around this
3) It might actually come in handy considering if someone were kidnapped, this could be a possible method of determining their whereabouts.
Sure there are pros and cons behind this, but it isn't anything new. Now if this were any longer I would rant on about Applied Digital Solutions' Digital Angel product, and how the DOJ is looking into using them in the future.
That is truly newsworthy. Besides one could set up their own triangulator to do the same thing if they really wanted to track you. Expensive yea, but it's doable without going through some company
MoFscker
Does too. If you're supposed to be at place X during company time, you've better be there. Say you're at place X but have a phone signal that says you're in place Y, you've got some explaining to do. Ask Jayson Blair.
It could become lucurative business to sell such information
Remember TIVO which now dishes key press information out to bidders at a zip code level - they could do something like that...
The terms and conditions of the service define a "Locatable User" as "the owner or keeper of a Locatable Mobile Phone who has consented to being Located."
In a confusing definition, a Locatable Mobile Phone is defined as "a mobile telephone registered with the Service by a Locating User."
Do they mean Locatable User? If not, this seems to indicate that I add someone else's phone to the registry, then they are notified and have to give consent, and then I can locate them. This seems like an odd mechanism as opposed to a purely opt-in method. Their further description indicates that this might be the case, but it's still unclear:
"MI International shall contact all Locatable Users directly by SMS to obtain their Consent to be Located."
Turn it off...
I keep my cell off a lot. Why? I use it for MY convienence... It's for me to make a call, not to be pestered when I'm in the car, at the mall, eating dinner, etc.
Corporatism != Free Market
I think that other technologies will come to mask the effects of this one, and thus balance and privacy will be restored.
I feel that the general tone that these are inherently bad for their potential to become aweful, but personally I would prefer for this to come to the publics attention rather then being used secretively without our knowledge.
I do, however think that legal actions can be done that can harm us much greater than any new technology. This is why we should investigate this technology, and advocate its opening up to standards so that it may not become a device to monitor people like herds. But will become a device that everyone knows how it works, and how to cirumvent it if neccessary.
We should all fight for a GPL of this, not scream that its the anti-christ of privacy... Technology, like the show, must go on!
Cell phones are RF devices. They broadcast. They say "I am here!" and the nearest cell tower says "Cool. I'll patch you in here until you reach the next cell." The phone company could track you to within the radius of a given cell since day one. As the technology has matured they've been able to better locate individual phones. It's a side effect of providing better coverage and more efficient service.
If you're worried about people tracking you by your cell phone, turn it off - and be aware that as soon as you come on the air to make a call, "they" will have a good idea where you are.
All this new service does is make that knowledge accessible to someone who's not monitoring cell sites inside the system. The addition of GPS in the phones makes it dramatically more accurate, but it's not really a new capability.
If you're worried about the Law tracking you down by your phone, then you should probably ditch the cell and go back to pay phones. Ditch the calling card too.
As for parents, if I give my kid a phone, and I care enough about her to wonder where she is, then tracking her with the cell (especially one I'm paying for) is my parental right. Parents are responsible for their kids. Part of that responsibility is having an idea whether they're out raising hell or really are over at their friend's studying like they said they were.
Bosses? Different matter and entirely situational. Company phone, company car, company time, the boss has the right to know whether or not I'm abusing my privilege. My phone? My time? Hell no.
Sure, they can track us with our phones. Big fat hairy deal. You don't want them to track you? Then don't carry a -transmitting- radio in your pocket!
Never attribute to malice what can as easily be the result of incompetence...
"OK clean up and scram, mom's 10 minutes away"
"Dammit don't drop the weed everywhere!"
"Next time look where you throw your bra"
Assume for a moment you are part of a group of sysadmins who must rotate 24/7 support coverage by carrying a company cellphone. Now lets add cellphone tracking to the picture. You now have a situation where although in theory you are on your own time, you must carry the phone, and have it on, and thus be tracked.
The biggest question I have, is can you get a report for where the phone HAS been, not where it is. Can you get information going back say 24 or 48 hours? If you can't now, I'll bet you will be able to shortly. Great potential for abuse here.
Let's say your boss is not religous and you are (or vice/versa) he can see if you do/do not go to church, what denomination you are etc. This is just one of many examples of potential abuse. If you deviate from the norm in any way those deviations can now be noticed, tracked and acted upon.
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
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For the cellphone manufacturers: Make phones with tracking/etc as an option. If you generally prefer privacy, but have an accident of sorts (and are, one would hope, at least coherent enough to push of button) allow the "trackable mode" on the cellphone to be an option
For cellphone users: There's a big button the phone called "off." As long as you're not expecting a call, you can just turn the damn thing back on when you need to dial out. If you're still paranoid, yank the battery or get a lead-lined case/signal-scrambler or something.
While the Feds have mandated location tracking for 911, it was left to the States to pay for it. as legislatures take this up, they can be pushed to place legal limitations on use, including clear opt-in for non-911 use, and liability for telcomms who leak, or make unauthorized use. Particular attention should be paid to archiving of the locater data absent opt-in.
State legislatures also have the power to set Statutory standards for law enforcement access to location data.
Ben Masel: 51,282 votes for US Senate in the Wisconsin Democratic Primary
AC: The Friendly Troll?
Yes, they do have rights. As do I. And one of my rights is to know where they are. To reiterate - as a parent you are responsible for your kid.
If a parent raises their kid right, they shouldn't need to worry about them doing crap they shouldn't be doing. If the trust is there, you don't need this capability. But having it isn't a bad thing. It's a mutual trust thing.
"I'm studying with my friend like I said I was. Besides, Dad can check up on me if he needs to."
"She said she's over at her friend's, and I trust her, so I don't need to check up on her."
You don't have children, do you?
Never attribute to malice what can as easily be the result of incompetence...
Unfortunately I can't find a transcript of the show, but here's a quick description taken from the shownotes: I'll leave the Orwellian aspects of cellphone tracking to the other threads.
Jonah Hex
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I have an idea. Just make this tracking info accessible to general public. Imagine web site with query form. Enter phone number and get name and location of cell tower nearest to this phone.
Nice. Then let people pay to get hidden from general public.
I bet the parents of those two missing kids in Massachusetts would really love it if their cellphones (which are currently defaulting into voicemail) had this ability. I mean, they're probably dead, but at least they'd know.
Perhaps a cheaper device, nothing more than a panic button that uses the cellphone system, would be a good alternative. It also wouldn't ring and alert your kidnapper that you have it. It wouldn't solve every situation, but I bet it'd be pretty useful in many.
Plus, it would be another product for the cellphone companies to make and sell service on. Get one for every member of your family! Not anywhere near as expensive as a cellphone, so more people could afford them, and they'd all need service, though, like 911, the service portion should be free. These should definitely not be anonymous, though, or the prank potential would be enormous. Plus, you'd want to know who to be looking for. Perhaps have your information (name, address, photo, etc.) at the phone company when you sign up for service, when the thing goes off, all that info is instantly routed to the cops.
This system seems to be UK based. In UK, the digital cellular systems is GSM/PCS. GSM base stations have a theoretical maximum diameter of 35km (15-20 miles?). Since the 1999/2000 boom in subscriber quantity, most cells top out at 2-3km and can be as small as 100m (300 foot) in town centers. Also, cells usually are segmented into 3 slices of 120 degrees each, to maximize channel re-usage ability.
Another GSM feature is the "timing advance", which roughly indicates the distance of a mobile from its base station. It is necessary, because GSM is time multiplexed. A mobile is assigned a "time slot" for transmission. To avoid interference between mobiles that are far away from the base stations and those that are near, the far mobile sends its packet a little bit too early. It then travels a the speed that radio waves use to have and arrives dead-on its time slot. While "timing advance" is originally used only for this purpose, it obviously also is a good indication of where the mobile is.
The mobile knows all these values - each base station has a unique identifiyer, and the timing advance is measured every N seconds (which btw is the reason why GSM mobiles are spec'ed for travel speeds of 250km/h max).
The trace system basically "phones-home" this information, where the base station ID is looked up in a database to find out where the mobile is.
This is not new. Former Viag Interkom in Germany offered such a service, too. Once registered, you could look up the position of a mobile through an internet page. There's also a travel assistance service of D1 Telekom Germany, where you call in, hang up, the system traces your position, and sends a text message with traffic jam information etc (for your current position) to your mobile.
All these systems base on the same method of locating you, but are marketed differently.
But back on-topic: there is no GPS. As simple as that.
My Sanyo 4900 has a location service. The paper instructions and phones internal help system claim if I shut the location system off, only 911 facilities will be able to know my location. What this really tells me is that it is always on from the phone end but Sprint will only pass the signal to the 911 system, not anyone who wants it. I also assume that the police will also have access to this also if needed or wanted. There is NOTHING that prevents law enforcement from going to Sprint or any other carrier and requesting a list of all users that were in a certain area at a certain time. This IS what the system is really being pushed for and why the Office of Homeland Security is the government department responsible for this E911 service implementation.
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
I looked at this service a few months ago when I first saw it on a tv news buletin. It's working with regular GSM phones by triangulating the position of the phone based on the signal strength monitored at the GSM base stations dotted around the country. It's information that the GSM networks have had available for a long time, it just required a third party to co-ordinate the service for all the UK networks.
As for all the privacy concerns voiced on this page I recommend people read the faq. Most significantly:
Can I locate any mobile I like?
No, mapAmobile can only be used with the permission of the user of the mobile you wish to locate. We ask for this at registration and send regular text messages to remind them that they are being located. The phone must be on O2, Vodafone, Orange or T-Mobile.
I understand that the old txt msgs aren't very popular outside Europe, Asia & Africa (ahem) but trust me, the vast majority of GSM Mobile Users are very familiar with it.
in the old world.
Over in Europe we've had services like this for at least two years.
Some just show your location based on the current base station you're connected to, and some are more sophisticated and uses some kind of triangulation (maybe based on what base stations you have been in contact with the last minutes? I don't know).
I've tried it a couple of times, and it's seems to be quite accurate give or take some fifty meters.
How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
The provider I use (Verizon) uses GPS to meet the US E911 requirements. It has an option to turn GPS off for non 911 calls.
To the best of my knowledge Verizon relys on this GPS data and doesn't have the hardward and software to triangulate.
Unauthorised spying is not its primary purpose.
But authorised spying is available for an additional fee.
Unauthorised spying has an even larger fee, in cash.
My telecom is always able to track me if i'm using my phone. Of course, I have a landline...
Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
I spoke with a developer with a working system. The phone companies can (as in "do now") provide the location information, and security is provided through certificates. If, for the moment, you assume that certificates work, you get to control who gets to see your location information. You can hand it off to your friends or boss, and you can turn it off (stealth mode) at any time. I saw it working and it is pretty impressive (or scary for all the reasons already mentioned). Also, once the infastructure is in place (which it now is), it is trivial to implement.
Coercive permission and court warrants would get around perfect security (if such a thing existed).
However, my point is that the infastructure is in place right now (in US) and implementation is easy.
It seems the general consensus here is opretty negative on this technology due to it's potential for abuse. However I can't help but feel if a couple of Uni students rigged up the same thing in their dorm room with a couple of pringles cans and aan empty pizza box, everyone would be applauding at how cool it is and how it has the potential to save the world.
Just a thought...
Where am I now?
Good!
Hold on, I'm not ready to read through this topic yet. *Puts gigantic tin foil hat on head, checks mirror, and adds some more to be sure*. Okay, now I'm ready!
GM's Onstart system already does this quite nicely. A friend of mine has it and when he works late his wife can make a "toll free" phone call and verify the exact position of his car. Fortunately, he is not a cheating husband, but still she can find out what road he is on and the speed he is travelling. In short, if you have a cell phone, you can be tracked...the system is not completely activated yet...comrade.
That just perpetuates the slavery of employment... if you are the kind of person who can't garner trust and respect from your employees, you deserve what you discover... Paranoid maniacal "CONTROL" breeds environments where everyone spends 6 hours a day trying to appear real-busylike, covering their ass and trying to "look good". Trust is contagious.
meh
designed more to ease the minds of worried parents and suspicious bosses
I think I'll ease my parents' minds and set my phone adrift in the Hudson.