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Supercomputers To Move To Specialization?

lucasw writes "The Japan Earth Simulator outperformed a computer at Los Alamos (previously the world's fastest) by a factor of three while using fewer, more specialized processors and advanced interconnect technology. This spawned multiple government reports that many suspected would ask for more funding in the U.S. for custom supercomputer architectures and less emphasis on clustering commodity hardware. One report released yesterday suggests a balanced approach."

174 comments

  1. Cost comparison? by Tyrdium · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Ignoring size, how does the cost of a cluster of fewer, highly specialized computers (with special interconnects, etc.) compare with that of a cluster of more, less specialized computers?

    1. Re:Cost comparison? by ybmug · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem is that it may not be possible to match the computation of a cluster with specialized interconnects using just commodity hardware no matter how many machines you throw at it. If a simulation has a low computation to communication ratio it's scalability is bound by the perfomance of the interconnects. In this case throwing more commodity machines at the problem will actually increase the total time required to run the experiment.

    2. Re:Cost comparison? by Pharmboy · · Score: 1

      Ignoring size, how does the cost of a cluster of fewer, highly specialized computers (with special interconnects, etc.) compare with that of a cluster of more, less specialized computers?

      I am guessing that cost is not the most important factor when it comes to supercomputers anyway. If you are the CIA, NOAH or biotech, yes keeping costs down are nice but performance is more of an issue. There was a similar article a few days back about the new Crays, and how Crays sales are up significantly. I can see how this would really matter for weather forcasting (not good to take 3 days to calculate what tomorrow's weather is going to be) and in crypto (can't wait the extra time either) and more.

      Sometimes you just have to have the most power you can get, cost be damned. From my limited experience, agencies that buy supercomputers are not doing it because it is more cost effective in any way.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    3. Re:Cost comparison? by mfago · · Score: 4, Informative

      The interconnects are (usually) not commodity parts -- just the servers.

      As an example, the first IBM SP "supercomputers" were essentially just common Power workstations bolted into racks, but connected with a custom made SP switch.

      Nevertheless, EarthSimulator has shown what can be done by designing the entire server from the ground-up with the application in mind.

      We'll have to see how ASCI Purple performs...

    4. Re:Cost comparison? by mkweise · · Score: 1

      While the one-time hardware cost is clearly going to significantly lower for a cluster of commodity machines, it is equally clear that the ongoing expenses of space occupied, power and cooling will favor custom hardware.

      --
      Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!
    5. Re:Cost comparison? by 0racle · · Score: 1

      Chances are the Super Computer will cost a great deal more. With a cluster of off-the-shelf components, the cost of R&D is spread over the mass produced parts, but with a specially designed processor, either for one or a few installations, in order to at the very least recoup the costs involved, the cost of all of the time and research that went into it is only spread across a few parts.
      It would be just the same as a Luxury car compared to a Kia, the parts are similar, and they do similar functions, but the cost of the one is far more then the other.
      Obviously there is a cost associated with the prestige of owning say a Jag which also drives up the cost, but again, the same would happen to a Super Computer.

      --
      "I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
    6. Re:Cost comparison? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here are some numbers I've seen:

      10TF Opteron cluster: $10M
      10TF pSeries cluster: $35M
      10TF Cray X1: $70M

    7. Re:Cost comparison? by Sourdough · · Score: 1

      This is a very complicated question, the answer to which varies with the evolution of certain technologies. Some factors include processor speeds (in FLOPS), memory latency and bandwidth, system bus/interconnect latency and bandwidth, mass storage bus bandwidth. It actually tunrs out to be kind of a linear programming problem. There are some crucial software factors involved as well.

      The people at the large supercomputing centers, those who fund them, and the companies making supercomputing equipment, all spend a lot of time weighing these criteria to determine the most cost effective solution for a certain class of performance.

    8. Re:Cost comparison? by glueball · · Score: 1


      10TF Opteron cluster: $10M
      10TF pSeries cluster: $35M
      10TF Cray X1: $70M


      For this to be a relevant comparision of cost vs. TF, what it the point-to-point interconnect bandwidth, and what application are you running, what is your aggregate bandwidth.

      There are more dimensions to the problem of "best super computer" than TFLOPS vs $.

    9. Re:Cost comparison? by theedge318 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I recently had the opportunity to speak with the designers of ASCI Purple and Lightpath ... and there is definitely a reason that they cant use stock parts.

      Currently the interconnects are the biggest set back ... currently all of the supercomputers are designed with two dimensional floorplans ... with the goals of minimizing distances between each various aspects of the computer throughout the room.

      Lightpath which is designed to be a "low" cost super computer, is based upon a bio-med computer out of NY (probably Cornell ... but I can't recall) Even with this low cost design each machine will be a custom made dual processors. The communications protocols will actually be on the processors. To further reduce distances and communications issues, each rack will hold 2 clusters off the midplane. The curious part about Lightpath, is that it is not connected with switches ... each computer is connected in 5 directions, 1 vertically and 4 horizontal. The machines on the end loop around back to the other end. Because of this manner of networking the machine can reboot in minutes, instead of the 12 hours that it takes most super computers, b/c there is no heirarchy and precedence

      Common workstation modules can no longer be just bolted into specialized switched ... the communications needs to be on the chips.

      Furthermore after ASCI Purple and Lightpath, they are planning to build three dimensionally, although there a quite a few construction and maintence issues to be resolved.

      Performancewise, both machines are expected to perform on the order of 100's of terraflops ... however we might be seeing an end of the ASCI line of supercomputers, if the LightPath works out ... there will be an order of magnitude in difference in cost for on par performance.

      --
      Sig Nazi- "No Sig for you, come back 1 year."
  2. performance vs cost by harmless_mammal · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Teraflops per dollar is important, let's not forget that.

    1. Re:performance vs cost by Dark+Lord+Seth · · Score: 1

      Dollars per teraflop you mean?

      Once we start talking about teraflops per dollar, things get really interesting!

    2. Re:performance vs cost by dukerobillard · · Score: 1
      But being able to scale to high teraflops is also important

      It seems likely that teraflops/dollar isn't constant for a given architecture...that it changes as the value of teraflops increases. For low values, Beowulf-style architectures are likely cheap. For high values, they might be expensive (or impossible)

      Likely, you need multiple approaches, depending on the application....which is good, it means more work for everyone. :-)

  3. Benchmarking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How does one go about bench marking a super computer specialized to do a certain task versus cheap computers in a cluster. Now we need to spend more money to develop specialized super computers even though the case scenerio presented in japan might not hold true to other applications? Seems a little too soon to start making recommendations

    1. Re:Benchmarking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does one go about bench marking a super computer specialized to do a certain task versus cheap computers in a cluster.

      On your mark... get set....

      GO!!!!!!!

    2. Re:Benchmarking by Erik_the_Awful · · Score: 0

      Generally, you bench mark specific tasks. If you are interested in Integer Calculations and software that uses Integer Calculations only, you bench mark that. If you are benchmarking a particular bit of software, you define a well known easily reproduced task and benchmark that. If you want to benchmark Quake video performance, you enable the FPS counter and benchmark that.

      Good Benchmarks require good benchmark definitions. Hope that helps.
      -EtA

  4. Oh! No! End of the World! by Goalie_Ca · · Score: 3, Funny

    Skynet had 60 Teraflops IIRC and they're talking about 100!

    Let's hope this isn't tied into Nukes somehow. Wait a sec, a massive virus has already spread disabling millions of computers!

    RUN HIDE! THE END IS UPON US!!!!!!!

    --

    ----
    Go canucks, habs, and sens!
    1. Re:Oh! No! End of the World! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As long as someone has enough C4 to blow up 10 supercomputers we're okay.

    2. Re:Oh! No! End of the World! by BabyDave · · Score: 5, Funny

      There's a far more important thing to worry about - could this be the end of "Imagine a Beowulf Cluster ..." jokes? After all, the phrase "Imagine a custom-built supercomputer utilising similar technology (albeit more specialised) to that found in one of those!" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, does it?

    3. Re:Oh! No! End of the World! by NanoGator · · Score: 1

      The topic is about supercomputers, this post is about supercomputers, and it's marked offtopic. Which of these three doesn't belong?

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    4. Re:Oh! No! End of the World! by pclminion · · Score: 1
      Skynet had 60 Teraflops IIRC and they're talking about 100!
      Let's hope this isn't tied into Nukes somehow. Wait a sec, a massive virus has already spread disabling millions of computers!

      Yeah, since we all know that any intelligent, distributed computer system's first goal is to blow itself up. Think about it: if SkyNet was running as a massively parallel program on all the PCs in the world, then by blowing up the cities, wasn't SkyNet blowing itself up? This plot hole is so big you can drive a Toyota Tundra through it.

    5. Re:Oh! No! End of the World! by cheekyboy · · Score: 1

      What was WOPR then? 12 mhz?

      --
      Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
  5. Someone who's knowledge please tell me by Raul654 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The Japan Earth Simulator outperformed a computer at Los Alamos (previously the world's fastest) by a factor of three while using fewer, more specialized processors...
    What is the difference between processor designed to simulate earthquakes (et al) and an ordinary, off-the-shelf processor? I mean - so they optomized floating point operations. Is that it?

    --


    To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
    --E.C. Stanton
    1. Re:Someone who's knowledge please tell me by Boone^ · · Score: 3, Informative

      Ordinary off the shelf microprocessors don't have the bandwidth to memory or bandwidth to other processors to simulate complex problems. NEC's machine is a Vector architecture (SX-6), similar to the kind you see from the Cray X1. Vector architectures are a SIMD-style processor.

    2. Re:Someone who's knowledge please tell me by doofus1 · · Score: 1

      They are vector processors, which means they are optomized for operating on matrices.

    3. Re:Someone who's knowledge please tell me by QuantumRiff · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Generic processors are ineffecient. Imagine having the fastest processesor on earth, and then take that chip and use it to do the calculation of x1++ (thats x1 = x1 +1 for you non-C'ers)and looping it a few Trillion times. Then take a processor that is desinged specifically to do x1++, and only that calculation. You can run a hell of alot faster, you don't need to worry about having to multiply, devide, etc.. they're smaller, and cooler, and after the cost of engineering them, cheaper.

      Can't remember the link, but somebody made a board with a few FPGA chips (I think) that cracked a 56bit DES key in a few days or less, and distributed.net had how many computers working on it for how many years?

      Its all about designing the chip for the application. The ones they are refferring to would probably be designed to do mass computation of heavy physics, and only be able to run custom Nuke Simulation software.

      The thing I am interested in, as an Ex Computer Systems Engineering major, is are they interested in designing and fabbing processors from the ground up, or using an assload of FPGA's or something from a company like Altera and program them..

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    4. Re:Someone who's knowledge please tell me by ihowson · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Can't remember the link, but somebody made a board with a few FPGA chips (I think) that cracked a 56bit DES key in a few days or less, and distributed.net had how many computers working on it for how many years?

      I think you're thinking of the EFF's DES cracking machine. It used a custom gate array chip - it took advantage of the cheapness of an ASIC, but not the extra efficiency (they couldn't afford to have the first round of chips not work properly - a large proportion of the chips didn't work properly anyway). IIRC, it searched the keyspace in 3.5 days.

      There have been many other groups to attack DES on FPGA's, but none have achieved the same scale as the EFF machine. I will be attempting it myself very, very soon (as soon as I can get the key buffer in my design to work on actual hardware, we're all set - today, if I'm lucky!). Some (extremely) preliminary figures suggest that we might be able to match the EFF machine on larger Xilinx FPGAs for only a few tens of thousands of dollars (it cost almost $250k).

      I'll be looking at the problem specifically mentioned in the blurb - comparing the price/performance ratio of FPGAs vs. software. At the moment FPGAs are looking they'll come out well ahead, but I have hope for bitslicing techniques to narrow the gap a bit. There are also ciphers that are designed to run well on software and are hence difficult to attack in hardware (DES was designed to run well on hardware).

    5. Re:Someone who's knowledge please tell me by joib · · Score: 1


      Imagine having the fastest processesor on earth, and then take that chip and use it to do the calculation of x1++ (thats x1 = x1 +1 for you non-C'ers)and looping it a few Trillion times.


      Well, regardless of the chip performing the calculation, I'd prefer doing

      x1 += a_few_trillion;

      instead of looping. ;-)

      But yes, I get your point. "Supercomputer CPU's", like in the earth simulator, are optimised for SIMD operations. Given a vectorizing FORTRAN compiler and a BLAS library handwritten in assembler to take advantage of SIMD features on the chip, I guess you can get some decent performance from such chips.

  6. I don't care what approach we use by Cornflake917 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    As long as the Japanese can't run Quake3 at a higher FPS than we can!

    1. Re:I don't care what approach we use by Gherald · · Score: 1

      > As long as the Japanese can't run Quake3 at a higher FPS than we can!

      But japs don't play Quake3!

      They have more refined games, like Xenosaga.

      </sarcasm>

  7. *flops not necessarily important... by Shenkerian · · Score: 3, Funny

    What if you care only about integer operations?

    --
    You tell me how "whilst" differs from "while," and I'll stop calling you a pretentious jackass.
    1. Re:*flops not necessarily important... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could measure teraiops per dollar, but nobody will care because because nobody knows what an iop is or how to pronounce it.

    2. Re:*flops not necessarily important... by Jaeger · · Score: 1

      I guess you'd want terraiops, then. (trillion integer operations per second)

  8. Interesting.. by TypoNAM · · Score: 1

    So does this mean that supercomputers will be developed without following current hardware standards or is there a new standard being formed for supercomputers? So I guess my Athlon XP won't fit in their CPU socket will it? Damn... So much for cheap AMD CPUs for supercomputers.

    Makes you wonder if Japan has already developed a nice powerful 128bit supercomputer to dish out to crush any competition. :P

    --
    This space is not for rent.
    1. Re:Interesting.. by RevMike · · Score: 2, Insightful
      So I guess my Athlon XP won't fit in their CPU socket will it? Damn... So much for cheap AMD CPUs for supercomputers.

      Stop being silly. The cooling requirements of an Athlon based massively powerful supercomputer would eat up the savings from using standard parts.

      Seriously, though - I would guess, actually, that if one were to build a supercomputer from a "desktop" processor, the PPC970 (aka G5) chips would be a good choice. They have a solid vector unit, are RISCier, have a wider bus, and a better pipeline design. Plus IBM's fabrication capabilities are excellent - which helps in reliability and upgradability.

    2. Re:Interesting.. by afidel · · Score: 1

      You have to be kidding, the SX-6 which powers the Earth Simulator already disipates well over 230W, this is as much as nearly 5 Athlon XP 1900+'s (47.7W typical), SPECfp2000 results is 634 for the Athlon, to be competitive on a SPEC/Watt ratio the SX-6 would have to score almost 3,200, or more than 50% higher than the highest published result. You are correct that the Athlon would be hampered by the memory bus, as well as the 4GB per process limit. My guess is the Opteron will probably be VERY competitive after a die shrink, and with the onboard memory controller it might also compete in the memory bandwidth arena assuming they integrate QDR support in the next rev. Finally IBM's fab's are good but fab tech has little to do with this.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    3. Re:Interesting.. by evilviper · · Score: 1
      The cooling requirements of an Athlon based massively powerful supercomputer would eat up the savings from using standard parts.

      Athlons dissupate less heat, and have higher operating temperatures than P4s.

      Besides that, it doesn't take much to dissipate "extra" heat... Once you've got the fans that suck the heat outdoors, it doesn't really matter how hot that heated output air is. Of course, you wouldn't know much about that if you've only ever operated a desktop computer where the heat output is recirculated into the same room.

      that if one were to build a supercomputer from a "desktop" processor, the PPC970 (aka G5) chips would be a good choice. They have a solid vector unit, are RISCier, have a wider bus, and a better pipeline design.

      If that was very important for your application, of course. Otherwise, the extra cost of the processors probably wouldn't be worth the limited benefits. I'd like to have a couple in place of my faster number-crunching systems, but the incredible costs just aren't worth it, although, I hope, and expect, as x86 processors can't get any hotter, and progress slows greatly, PPC chips are likely to take a huge lead in performance, and the popularity will finally drive prices lower. That assuming that AMD doesn't have too many surprises in store for their x86-64 processors.

      Plus IBM's fabrication capabilities are excellent - which helps in reliability and upgradability.

      Reliability??? Come on now... I've seen a LOT of computer hardware fail, and all the time, but a processor failure is incredibly rare, it's quite almost certainly the single most reliable component in computers today, other than the actual heat-sink (solid chunks of metal are incredibly reliable).
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  9. The Japanese cheated... by Hayzeus · · Score: 1

    Their computer had Tallow use a PsyBeam attack, which is totally whacked.

  10. Ooh this is bad... by superpulpsicle · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Last thing I need is a supercomputer that checks email at a high speed, and a separate computer that does wordprocessing even faster.

    I am one of those people with maxed out PCI cards, maxed out SCSI buses and everything jammed into one PC.

    Work, pr0n, email, /. all in one box.

    1. re: Ooh this is bad... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As opposed to having separate specialised processors for 3D graphics, 3D sound, and controlling SCSI devices, hmm?

    2. Re:Ooh this is bad... by NanoGator · · Score: 1

      You have seperate processors for graphics (geometry processing, T&L, etc), sound, networking, and device connectivity. Your computer is already like that. Eventually, the UI to your OS will be running on a specific piece of hardware.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
  11. Specialization by bersl2 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If you're going to have a supercomputer do one thing, of course specialize it. An Earth simulation surely has a set number of formulae whose calculations are to be optimized as much as possible, even to the hardware level.

    But if you want a versitile, general-purpose supercomputer, why not go with the clustering solution?

    1. Re:Specialization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speaking as a versitile, general-purpose supercomputer I must say specialization has paid of quite well.

      I eat the clustering solution for breakfast.

    2. Re:Specialization by jstott · · Score: 3, Informative
      But if you want a versitile, general-purpose supercomputer, why not go with the clustering solution?

      Because some problems don't work on clusters--things like large-scale molecular dynamcis simulations with long-range spatial interactions.

      Problems that require the nodes to share massive amounts of data between nodes (gigabytes per second and up--these problems often have N^2 behaviors) don't do so well on a cluster since they tend to saturate the network. A shared-memory system, like a supercomputer, on the other hand, can provide much better memory access times (top of the line Cray's have a peak memory transfer rate of 204 GB per sec per node [yes, 204 gigabytes per second]) and since there's only one copy of the memory, there can often be a lower peak bandwidth requirement.

      In short, it all depends on the problem you need to solve. Some problems work very well on clusters, others do not.

      -JS

      --
      Vanity of vanities, all is vanity...
    3. Re:Specialization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Due to economy of scale, specialized solutions (at least, as they mean in this context) will frequently be terribly beaten by generalized solutions. For instance, a problem where the result of one task doesn't affect the next (e.g., SETI@Home) will do very well run on clusters of consumer CPUs; when the problem has to be solved linearly (e.g., a simulation) then clusters aren't very useful.

      Given the content of your post, I don't think you've actually read the article, or understand the subject matter, so I'm not sure why anyone considered that "Insightful". I guess they didn't read the article, either.

  12. The motivation is a tad depressing by Faust7 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The two studies resulted, in part, from NEC Corp.'s May 2002 announcement of the Earth Simulator, a custom-built supercomputer that delivers 35.8 teraflops. That system packed five times the performance of the fastest U.S. supercomputer at that time...

    "The Earth Simulator created a tremendous amount of interest in high-performance computing and was a sign the U.S. may have been slipping behind what others were doing," said Jack Dongarra...

    Graham said researchers should not overreact to NEC Corp.'s Earth Simulator that blindsided many in the high-performance computing community eighteen months ago by delivering a custom-built system five to seven times more powerful than the more off-the-shelf clusters developed in the U.S.


    I don't mean to draw a crude analogy here, but I really can't help but read this and be reminded of the space race.

    It took Sputnik to kickstart our spacemindedness; I for one consider it sad that a "tremendous amount of interest" -- and the funding that comes with it -- in high-performance computing seems only to have arisen/regenerated with the influence of competitive international politics. Are we really so hardly advanced that our respective national egos are still the driving force behind enthusiasm, financial or otherwise, in certain areas of science?

    1. Re:The motivation is a tad depressing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no. you fucking idiot.

    2. Re:The motivation is a tad depressing by Xeth · · Score: 1

      No, I still believe that many people believe in the advancement of science purely for the sake of the cause. But these people are asking for government contracts, and the government won't fork out the big bucks unless there's a good reason. And, unfortunately, shelling out big bucks for stuff the comman man doesn't care about isn't good politics.

      --
      If your theory is different from practice, then your theory is wrong.
    3. Re:The motivation is a tad depressing by Atzanteol · · Score: 1

      *What* and idealist! Buddy, ever wonder why 'competition is good' for our economy? Hm? Think it would be any different on a national/global level?

      National pride has done a lot to further progress.

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    4. Re:The motivation is a tad depressing by Pharmboy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It took Sputnik to kickstart our spacemindedness; I for one consider it sad that a "tremendous amount of interest" -- and the funding that comes with it -- in high-performance computing seems only to have arisen/regenerated with the influence of competitive international politics. Are we really so hardly advanced that our respective national egos are still the driving force behind enthusiasm, financial or otherwise, in certain areas of science?

      I don't really see that as bad. Yes, it may look like pure ego, but the space race gave us so much that filtered into the commercial/private sector. From advanced computers to Velcro(tm). From my perspective, being the most advanced nation in as many areas as possible is a good defense, both economically and in a homeland security sense.

      Frankly, I don't want the fastest computer chips on the desktop to be designed by a company in another country (even if Intel makes them outside of the US) and I would rather that the cutting edge, be cut here, in my native country. I am sure other people in other countries feel the same, that pushed all of us to new heights. In the end, the technologies are shared anyway. Most anyone in the world can buy Intel chips, for example.

      If no one cared who could race a bicycle the fastest, Lance Armstrong would be just some guy who had cancer. Instead, our desire to compete and excell and outdo our neighbors has benefited EVERYONE a great deal. It can bring out the bad side from time to time, but the benefits far outweigh the costs. This urge to compete and win is not unique to America by any means, it is part of being human: man the animal.

      I say bring on the computer chip wars: Lets all compete, Japanese, Americans, Europeans, Russians, come one come all. In the end, we will all benefit, no matter who has the bragging rights for a day.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    5. Re:The motivation is a tad depressing by 4of12 · · Score: 1

      compete and excell and outdo our neighbors has benefited EVERYONE a great deal.

      Well, not everyone.

      There is a disproportionate number of underprivileged teenagers who believe they have a chance to play professional basketball and to earn big money. The large numbers of also-rans will have to make last-minute career plans to take into account lack of formal education: the only logical lucrative careers involve selling illegal substances.

      There's a fine line between healthy competition and unhealthy competition that is too easily crossed.

      Regarding different countries competing:
      "patriotism" is always regarded as a good thing
      "nationalism" is a bad thing (eg, caused WWI)
      but the line between the two is blurry and faded.

      --
      "Provided by the management for your protection."
    6. Re:The motivation is a tad depressing by Tailhook · · Score: 1

      only to have arisen/regenerated with the influence of competitive international politics. Are we really so hardly advanced that our respective national egos are still the driving force behind enthusiasm, financial or otherwise, in certain areas of science?

      Certain areas of science? Our egos, national or otherwise, are the driving force behind pretty much everything. Make a baby, jump on a grenade, write a kernel patch... Ego, pal. Get over it.

      Besides, there is nothing a noble as ego driving this. Sandia knows how to keep the budget bucks flowing. The supercomputer-gap is no different than the many preceding variants of the missle-gap. The real competition here is between all of the various potential beneficiaries of public largess attempting to get their collective mouths around the giant, swollen teat that is the Federal budget.

      A highly tailored Japanese machine was able to post better numbers on a specific application than a general purpose machine. Big deal. Russian engineers made effective radar systems for military aircraft using vacuum tubes. News at 11: Custom hardware can do amazing things!

      --
      Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
    7. Re:The motivation is a tad depressing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who is Lance Armstrong?
      Has he got a brother named streeech?

    8. Re:The motivation is a tad depressing by evilviper · · Score: 1
      Are we really so hardly advanced that our respective national egos are still the driving force behind enthusiasm, financial or otherwise, in certain areas of science?

      I really don't think it is ego at all... I think it's a matter of seeing something done better than you could do it, and then finally realizing how far behind you actually were...

      People are always complacent until there is some competition... If company X has the most reliabile software, then everything is great. When company Y suddenly comes out with software that is 3x as reliable, anyone using company X's software takes notice, and company X decides they should be doing a better job right away.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  13. Relative speed by silmarildur · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is there a way to really compare the speed of a supercomputer and commodity hardware? If anyone could give either a quick explanation or a link to the relationships between bogomips teraflops MHz and the whole lot I would be very much appreciative.

    --
    -Silmarildur
  14. Specialized always outperforms... by I'm+a+racist. · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Specialized hardware (almost) always outperforms commodity stuff.

    I use custom designed amplifiers because they work better for my application. I could buy off-the-shelf stuff (~$500~$10,000 range), but that won't be exactly what I want. I use custom software too... know why? Because it's designed specifically for the job. That same software shouldn't really be used for other fields of research, neither should my amplifiers. The thing about this stuff is that it takes a lot of time to maintain (plus initial development). That means grad students, postdocs, and technicians who may spend over 90% of their time just keeping systems in working order and/or adding features. The benefits of customized hardware/software, in this instance, is worth the headaches associated with it.

    All of my optics is commodity stuff (some is rare/exotic, but it's still basically black-box purchasing). I don't have the facilities to make coated optics, nor do I need anything that specialized, so... I just buy it.

    When I was in telecom, we used Oracle and Solaris and Apache. It worked, and the cost of developing the same functionality in-house was ridiculously high (plus we'd never get to designing our products that sit on top of it).

    Eventually, it always comes down to a comparison between the cost (man hours, equipment, etc) of custom building and of integrating stuff from OEMs.

    So, the question our labs need to answer is, does clustered COTS hardware get the job done? Supplementary to that, is it cost-effective to buy/design it in light of the previous answer?

    In any field where you are pushing the limits of technology, you have to make such trade-offs. Personally, I don't care who has the absolute fastest supercomputer (measured in flops, factoring-time, whatever)... what really counts is, who does the best research with the supercomputers.

    --


    Down with Saudi Arabia!!!
    1. Re:Specialized always outperforms... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're a Nazi.

    2. Re:Specialized always outperforms... by torpor · · Score: 1

      Specialized hardware (almost) always outperforms commodity stuff.

      That's kind of "black and white", wouldn't you say?

      Oh, wait, you said (almost). Sorry, your sig almost killed it for me.

      --
      ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
  15. I'm already prepared! by SpamJunkie · · Score: 1

    So you want more specialized supercomputer, eh? I can build one right now!

    It's specialty is executing x86 programs. I can also make some that specialize in PowerPC programs.

  16. Gotcha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    HA! Gotcha!

  17. Specialization by bytesmythe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Specialized systems are almost always going to outperform generalized systems when you're dealing with similar levels of technology (for instance, specialized abacasuses vs. a generalized Cray T3E).

    The great thing about generalized systems is you can use them to explore new areas, then design a specialized system to take advantage of specific optimizations the generalized one can't support.

    I'm glad for the report suggesting a "balanced approach". I can't imagine forsaking one type of system for the other, as each has its place. (Uhoh... generalized systems have a "place"? Does that mean they're specialized at being generalized? Oh, the irony! ;))

    --
    bytesmythe
    Hypocrisy is the resin that holds the plywood of society together.
    -- Scott Meyer
  18. Duh. by torpor · · Score: 1
    --
    ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
  19. Behind? by Bob+Vila's+Hammer · · Score: 1

    The reports come on the heels of recent congressional testimony warning that the United States is falling behind in supercomputing.

    Since when is the US falling behind in supercomputing. I remember reading a list of top supercomputers in the world, and the US had 14 of the top 20. Isn't it quantity in this case, not quality? Specialization is just the case here, so what if we don't have the absolute fastest.

    --


    --"The perfect example of the man of action is the suicide." - William Carlos Williams
  20. trigonometry? by SHEENmaster · · Score: 3, Informative

    I assume that hard-coding trig functions into the tertiary processors would be advantagious for this. I know it violates the spirit of RISC in general-pupose computing, but for such a large scale system with so many processors it coould be advantagious.

    Do HP's Saturn or other such special-purpose processors have hard-coded higher-level functions?

    --
    You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
    1. Re:trigonometry? by Gherald · · Score: 5, Funny

      Do HP's Saturn or other such special-purpose processors have hard-coded higher-level functions?

      Indeed, functions Cost_an_arm_and_a_leg() and Fork_over_much_dough() are hard-coded, and always return a value of "1".

  21. Invest in Cray by Teahouse · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Cray is back and getting back into the government contract game. Suprisingly, they are doing it just as the DOD is realizing that they need specialized hardware like they used to when Cray was one of their best suppliers. Look for little ol Cray to be back in the black real quick, and pick up a few shares now.

    --
    "Curiosity killed the cat, but for a while I was a suspect."- Steven Wright
  22. Re:Fill in the thread ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Captain: What !

  23. In that case by Faust7 · · Score: 1

    What if you care only about integer operations?

    Then I'd cluster a planetload of Apple II's running Integer BASIC.

  24. parallel FPGA supercomputers? by wfmcwalter · · Score: 1
    One would think that, given the kind of applications for which parallel super computers are used, that it would be (in some cases) efficient to do the computation in arrays of FPGAs loaded with application-specific designs.

    This is kind of a compromise between each node being a slow but adaptable general purpose CPU (with maximum flexibility) and a super fast (but inflexible) ASIC.

    Perhaps the big barrier to this would be making the math and physics geeks write verilog, or perhaps writing a really shit-hot fortran->verilog converter.

    So, I figure that either a) smarter people have already done this or b) it's really stupid.

    (note that, in this case at least, I'm not really talking about reconfigurable computing)

    --
    ## W.Finlay McWalter ## http://www.mcwalter.org ##
  25. Good question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Good question there man.

    I am also wondering, which should I get? I mean, with Doom III on its way, to get decent frames should I go specialized supercomputer, or a linux beowulf cluster?

  26. Re:Fill in the thread ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Captain: It's You !!

  27. Start the Gravy Train by DaveInAustin · · Score: 1

    Great argument for people with their head in the trough. We need funding for specialized, proprietary hardware so we don't fall behind the Japanese. Intel/AMD CPU's aren't good enough. SUN, can't compete price/performance with Linux/Intel. NASA lost a couple of Mars probes (expensive, custom hardware), while a cheap Mars Rover mission makes it there with OTS parts. Of course, if you are aiming for taxpayer funding, your cost/performance priorities are the same as if you are spending your own money.

    --
    --- http://davidnehme.blogspot.com
    1. Re:Start the Gravy Train by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Everything is a nail if you only have a hammer.
      Not all problems are best solved by COTS clusters. Yes they are very good for some problems but not all. Some problems are best solved with vector based systems like Cray makes. Just why do you think that a HUGE pile of PCs networked together are the end all of Supercomputing. Just as you do not want your airliner/car/pacemaker to run off a p4 and windows you might just want that supercomputer modeling the depition of the Ozone layer to be a vector system.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    2. Re:Start the Gravy Train by dukerobillard · · Score: 1
      Maybe if we skipped bombing the next third world country on the list, we'd save enough to afford all this. We can just jump over it and move onto the fourth one.

      I forget, is it Syria or Iran? We should start a pool.

  28. This greatly surprises me by ikewillis · · Score: 4, Interesting
    As an employee of an atmospheric modelling group I am very surprised to hear this. Our atmospheric modelling program, the Regional Atmospheric Modelling System, is not I/O bound in the slightest and is instead very much CPU bound. We currently use 100bT for the interconnect on our cluster, and have tried moving to Gigabit with negligable performance gains.

    The main area in which we saw benefit was switching from the Portland Group Fortran Compiler to the Intel Fortran Compiler, which cut the timestep (simulation time/real time) nearly in half.

    Every cluster in the department is assembled from commodity x86 components. Groups here have been moving from proprietary Unix architectures to Linux/x86 systems and clusters. Our group started out on RS/6000s, then moved to SPARC, and is now moving to x86. In terms of price/performance there really is no comparison.

    As for TCO, the lifetimes of clusters here are relatively short, one or two years at the most. Thus a high initial outlay cannot be set by lower cost of operation.

    1. Re:This greatly surprises me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not really since most applications to plenty of I/O. Your application would one of the few that has minimal communication AND minimal I/O. This is not true of the majority of applications. The sciences are becoming very data intensive with 10-20G datasets being common and tightly coupled communication required to process these data. I would suggest that both architectures are required for scientific computing,

    2. Re:This greatly surprises me by bathmatt · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I also work in the geophysical modeling arena and you will find that one of the biggest differences in using a purpose build S/C versus a lot of OTS equipment is memory speed. It is typical to reach only 10% of peek efficiency when running an application, even with nice structured problems like you are running. While you claim that you are CPU bound, you really are not. For example, if you run on a slower CPU but with a better memory subsystem or a larger cache (example SGI vs intel/linux) you will find that the SGI will win even though it is a much slower machine on paper. This is because the memory thruput and large cache. Now, to explain why you don't notice the speed up when you went from a 100-1G network, that is because your latency did not change much in that. You are typically sending lots of small packets (assuming you are not doing variable packing and the only atm model I know doing this is WRF) you are never really getting out of the latency mode and not seeing much improvement on the communicatoin speed. This is why people use myrinet (SP) because this can be accessed from the application, not going through the kernel and start transfer much quicker. (For typical latency/bandwidth numbers for a structured grid halo exchange google wallcraft halo and you will get numbers for all different types of machines and code to test yours)

    3. Re:This greatly surprises me by FullyIonized · · Score: 5, Interesting
      And I'm surprised to hear that you are surprised since fluid modeling is one of the applications that do very well with the vector processors that the Earth Simulator uses. I attended a lecture by Dr. Sato, head of the Earth Simulator, who stated that the best application usage was 65% peak usage (the theoretical peak which assumes that the processor always has data to crunch and no branches) and the average was 30% of theoretical peak. By contrast, typical fluid-like codes on current U.S. machines typically get less than 10% of peak usage if they have any type of implicitness (currently the magnetohydrodynamics code I use gives about 6% usage on an IBM SP that is #5 on the Top 500 supercomputer list).

      I get tired of seeing figures that compare peak flop rates and then don't mention that actually code usage isn't keeping up at all. The Japanese (and Europeans who are allowed to buy NEC machines) are absolutely spanking the US when it comes to fluid codes (for climate modeling for example) and it is largely because they are using vector machines with their old highly optimized Fortran (or High Performance Fortran) codes. The MPP revolution in the U.S. has been manna for the CompSci community, but has set the computational physics community back by 10 years (except for those lucky bastards with embarrassingly parallel jobs).

      I would give up an unnecessary body part for an Earth Simulator.

      --
      Sigs are bad for you.
    4. Re:This greatly surprises me by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      I know that 1000bT has 10x the bandwidth, but does it have more than negligible latency gains? That might be a factor.

      I've seen complaints of Ethernet being latency.

    5. Re:This greatly surprises me by joib · · Score: 1

      ethernet has about 100 us (microseconds) latency, regardless if it's 100 or 1000 Mbit. Specialized cluster interconnects, like myrinet, scali and quadrics, have about 3-7 us. Of course, those interconnects cost a fortune too.

  29. Lots! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    for a sample of the differences, read the posts above mine! :p

  30. Astronomers were doing this over a decade ago by Michael+Woodhams · · Score: 1

    with the "GRAPE" computers. (More links). I expect there are examples going back to the dawn of the computer age.

    --
    Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
  31. yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Because all your general super-computing needs will be filled by the G5.

    1. Re:yes by f13nd · · Score: 1

      that's what everyone says every generation on the Apple roadmap

      and i'm totally disapointed each and every time

      --
      www.necroticobsession.com
  32. It does matter by Cyno · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    how many supercomputer we build. We'll still be wasting cycles processing the first few nanoseconds of nuclear explotions on them or trying to find more oil or money or WMDs. The last thing we care about is the environment we all have to live in.

    I wonder how rich we'll be when it finally hits us that irrepairable damage has been caused to our environment? I hope we're really rich so we can afford to buy a new Earth. Cuz we might need one by then.

    1. Re:It does matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod parent +11 ghey.

    2. Re:It does matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > The last thing we care about is the environment we
      > all have to live in.

      You realize a LOT of supercomputers are designed solely to model the environment we live in...I was just up at NCAR (National Center for Atmospheric Research) the other day, looking at all their machines...all for figuring out what's happening up there.

    3. Re:It does matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Perhaps you haven't looked at what the Earth Simulator is actually being used for? It is doing plenty of environmental research. The humourous thing is that the US wishes to develop faster systems with more capacity than the earth simulator only to simulate weapons. (see hpc.mil) The Japanese have the right idea, it will take big science and big computers to solve our environmental problems.

    4. Re:It does matter by russotto · · Score: 1

      The more humorous thing is that

      1) Many environmental processes are chaotic -- that is, they strongly depend on minor variations in their parameters and

      2) We have only a very rough idea of the parameters -- huge new CO2 sinks and sources are discovered often, for instance.

      So it doesn't matter how large a supercomputer you build, you're still going to get garbage out. But with a fast supercomputer, it'll be detailed and precise garbage...

    5. Re:It does matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You realize a LOT of supercomputers are designed solely to model the environment we live in...I was just up at NCAR (National Center for Atmospheric Research) the other day, looking at all their machines...all for figuring out what's happening up there.

      The military uses weather information extensively. I'd guess there are more cycles spent planning for war, than predicting global warming.

    6. Re:It does matter by afidel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Would you rather they simulate weapons or resume detonation testing of new designs?? The fact is the US has a VERY large and ever aging supply of weapons, most of the cycle time so far from the ASCI projects has gone towards stewardship of the existing crop of weapons, making sure that the stockpiles are safe and also that they will be effective(if god forbid they should be needed). Also, reduced consumption is the only thing that will reduce our environmental "problems". Personally I think anyone who thinks the US has much of an environmental problem needs to get out of LA/New York/whichever big city they live in. I have spent a lot of time enjoying the national parks of this great country and I can tell you that there are a lot of pristine wilderness areas and a lot of generally green land here (in fact the US landmass is one of the least densly populated non-desert areas in the world).

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    7. Re:It does matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Off topic?
      Lame ghey cat calls?
      An intelligence agency that failed to spot Perl Harbour, 9/11 AND can't find WMD?
      Wine that taste like cats piss?
      Only in America!

  33. apparently the saturn is too expensive even for HP by SHEENmaster · · Score: 1

    why else would they be emulating it?

    --
    You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
  34. Why oh why? by tomstdenis · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Definitely a really huge super-computer would be neat to have but honestly are they putting the ones we already have to good use?

    From what I've heard [anecdotally] computers like the earth simulator go vastly under utilized for the most part.

    So given that most nations [including the US] have budget problems specially concerning education couldn't people think of better uses for money?

    And before anyone throws a "it's the technology of it" argument my way, I'd like to add that if anything I'd rather have the money spent on researching how to make high performance low power processors [and memory/etc] instead. E.g. an Athlon XP 2Ghz that runs at 15W would be wicked more impressive than a 50,000 processor super computer that runs a highly efficient idle loop 99% of the time.

    Tom

    --
    Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    1. Re:Why oh why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Without the supercomputers of yesterday, you wouldn't have the 2Ghz Athlon XP of today.

    2. Re:Why oh why? by mfago · · Score: 4, Informative

      computers like the earth simulator go vastly under utilized for the most part

      From first-hand experience, such computers are running jobs almost 24x7. Due to job scheduling details there are times when some of the machine is idle, but this is still a small percentage. These machines are used for a vast array of applications, not just the advertized ones.

      Now the utilization as a percentage of peak theoretical is another matter. For some algorithms, 20% of peak performance (IIRC) is considered good (ie. a particular code might only get 2 TFlops on a machine rated for 10).

    3. Re:Why oh why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      tomstenis CANS THE MANHAM, then BOTTLES THE MANGOO and soon thereafter POURS THE MANFROSTED FLAKES.

    4. Re:Why oh why? by tomstdenis · · Score: 1

      How so? I doubt AMD used a 10000 processor super-computer to design the Athlon processor.

      Tom

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    5. Re:Why oh why? by gsabin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      From what I've heard [anecdotally] computers like the earth simulator go vastly under utilized for the most part.

      From my experience that is mostly untrue, yet widely publicized. Yes, if you look at utilization as the (used-proc*sec)/(totaltime*numprocs) the number can be relatively low (~60-70%). However, that includes system time, rebooting the machine, weekends, holidays, etc. Further, when it comes down to it the researchers need to have a reasonable turnaround time during the day for their development runs (when the utilization is much higher than 60%). Further, since these machines generally run jobs of different sizes from many differnt users there is an upper bound on utilization

    6. Re:Why oh why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe other people don't care what you think the money would be better spent on. Maybe you should move to the US and become a policymaker if you want to actually direct how US spends its money.

      Maybe you should stop CANNING THE MANHAM.

    7. Re:Why oh why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There wouldn't be anywhere near the demand, interest and motivation for processors like the 2Ghz Athlon XP if it weren't for supercomputers.

      One begets the other.

    8. Re:Why oh why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One begets the other.

      Like Tom StDenis' COLON and SEMEN.

    9. Re:Why oh why? by tomstdenis · · Score: 1

      Really? Could it be the hordes of invidual AMD processor owners as well?

      I doubt the Athlon XP would be a processor of choice for many huge clusters. First off the processor is just too fucking hot. Second it uses a heck of a lot of power.

      Tom

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    10. Re:Why oh why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would anyone need an Athlon's processing power if a previous supercomputer didn't make it apparent that such power was possible and there were discovered new applications for that power?

    11. Re:Why oh why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doesn't look like he's saying you'd put athlons in a fucking blade rack, rimjob. It's about incentive.

      There'd be no reason to consider a PC for say, prime generation before supercomputers came along that could do it, then there's a push for advancement so you can generate primes a lot more cheaply. The supercomputer eventually shrinks to a PC. The big things supercomputers do right now are stuff like protein folding and particle simulation. That sort of thing is really useful and drives real advancement of the start of the art. Fuck prime generation, what I want next is perfect simulation right down to the subatomic level in real time.

      Stop being so stupid about being wrong, for fuck's sake.

    12. Re:Why oh why? by tomstdenis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't get what you are saying. Before my Athlon I owned a K6-2. Before that I owned a MII 300, before that a MI 166 and before that a 486SX.

      Each time I bought a new computer it wasn't because I wanted to rival a local supercomputer. It was because newer technology existed that was faster than what I had. The newer processor allowed me todo more.

      If AMD could make a 2400+ which generates half the heat I would use it. And such a decision would have nothing todo with the local super-computer capabilities.

      That all being said a super-computer which uses off the shelf processors doesn't really "fuel" the science of electrical engineering. In fact of more importance in supercomputing would be reliability, uptime, maintaining sufficient inter-processor communication bandwidth, etc.

      None of which I'll ever use in a desktop processor [perhaps for 50 years or so]. Even in this age of computing multi-processor desktop boxes are fairly rare.

      So I think it's hard to say that the ability to cram more Xeons in a room really advances processor design. [or substitute another off the shelf processor].

      Tom

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    13. Re:Why oh why? by tomstdenis · · Score: 1

      This is so blatantly lacking of facts it's worse than the worst post I've ever written.

      When "prime generation" became a computing challenge [say when RSA came about] the algorithms all focused on how todo it on personal computers [or low end terminals]. In fact RSA was never geared to "massive super computers" at all.

      And in fact desktop computers and super-computers solve VERY DIFFERENT problems.

      Desktop computers allow AC asshats to reply with "can the manham" and others [such as me] todo work. Super computers allow people to run simulations that would otherwise take far too long on a desktop. I think I can safely bet that 99% of personal computer owners have no interest in simulating the weather over fiji for the next 80 years. But that is the sort of application a super computer would solve.

      You're line of thinking is like drawing a connection between racing busses [the street kind] and muscle cars just because they're both vehicles. Makes no sense since they are meant for different problems [oddly enough, one for work and the other to make up for a small penis... hmm can the manham guy?]

      Tom

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    14. Re:Why oh why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Each time you bought a processor, it was because you wanted your computer to do more. That drive would have no reason to exist if it weren't for supercomputers breaking the ground and discovering more useful things to spend more and more processor cycles on (not to be confused with stupid things like java&vb which burn processor cycles uselessly).

    15. Re:Why oh why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So in summary, you want to CAN THE manham guy's MANHAM

    16. Re:Why oh why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speaking of lacking facts...

      Super computers allow people to run simulations that would otherwise take far too long on a desktop. I think I can safely bet that 99% of personal computer owners have no interest in simulating the weather over fiji for the next 80 years.

      With the detail they're going for, try a few seconds or minutes. Not 80 years.

      And this will become available on the desktop before too long, possibly for realistic weather for games or some such thing. It wasn't that long ago that 3D worlds were the realm of supercomputers and we had ignorant asshats like yourself waving their limp wrists at going "pshaw" at the idea of having it on a microcomputer (that'd be the thing you're using right now, kid).

      Personally, I hope the "can the manham" guy keeps after you. You both deserve each other.

    17. Re:Why oh why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First of all, diverting what we currently spend on supercomputers at the national labs to educational institutions would make virtually no difference in the quality of education in this country. The problems facing American education are far more institutional/cultural than monetary.

      Second, it isn't the government's charge to make a better processor for your laptop. It is its mission to qualify the nuclear stockpile and know as much as it can about the physics of nuclear weapons. Not to do so with such dangerous devices would be well beyond negligent.

      Third, some 3D calculations can take months even on the fastest computers and there are usually many users taking advantage of the system resources at any one time. The idea that these machines are just sitting idle likey your PC 99% of the time is pretty unrealistic.

    18. Re:Why oh why? by tomstdenis · · Score: 1

      Not for nothing but RSA [which you cited] was not invented using some super cluster computer. In fact quite a few end user applications still have absolutely nothing todo with problems super computers solve.

      For example, 5000 2Ghz processors still will not make my hard disk faster or my word processor more responsive. It won't help little suzy do her art homework nor johny pirate music on kazaa.

      Not that cluster research isn't important. Just that clusters and single nodes solve different problems. I mean I think it's safe to say desktop knowledge has crept into cluster work and vice versa. So there isn't a single conclusion to be made. E.g. clusters are not required for single node development.

      Tom

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    19. Re:Why oh why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It won't help little suzy do her art homework nor johny pirate music on kazaa.

      These things already exist, and are not what I'm talking about. 20 years ago, detailed graphics were only possible on supercomputers. Networking was for laboratories and mainframes earlier than that.

      About clusters/supercomputers... Supercomputers can be giant clusters of commodity hardware, but that doesn't have to be the case and it's not really all that relevent when putting the end product to use. In the end you've got a machine that processes really fast, comparatively. Fast enough to be a world beyond a contemporary micro. This opens up possibilities that weren't even thought possible previously. As an example, realtime 3D graphics in the 70's.

      You're being incredibly obtuse and keep missing the point entirely. I'm done explaining the same thing repeatedly; just go back to playing with the "can the manham" guy.

    20. Re:Why oh why? by burns210 · · Score: 1

      Someone needs to convince those Japanese scientists to run this on their super computer.

  35. Distributed Net by acidrain69 · · Score: 1

    Um, I think you're thinking of the RC-64 and 128 projects, which took years. Don't quote me on this, but back when I was actually running a D.net client, they had talked about doing 56 bit contests, and they usually only lasted a few days, then everyone would go back to doing the 128 bit contest.

    I got bored of it all and switched to the Intel Cancer project. More useful. Too bad it doesn't run on linux.

    --
    -- Having a Creationist Museum is like having an Atheist place of worship
  36. I am GOOOOOD! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're right. Different applications require different approaches. There are lots of things that can be best done with distributed systems, yet still some that require specialized systems.

    And I called it too!

    reproduced here:

    Definately (Score:4, Informative)
    by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 04, @05:48PM (#6609924)
    There are still MANY applications for supercomputers. A lot of people think that linux/beo-clusters are going to be replacing supercomputers of the Cray/NEC/IBM variant. Not true. There are still many research, scientific, and military applications that require machines developed not for "slow" distributed number crunching, but require ultra high speed processor and memory architechtures.

    So definately, time for Cray to come back and retake the supercomputer industry crown.

  37. MOD PARENT UP, its FUNNY! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    . bah .

    1. Re:MOD PARENT UP, its FUNNY! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny to who? Your grandma? She just fell off a dinosaur, shit.

  38. Yes, I'm trying to Karma-Whore by QuantumRiff · · Score: 1

    The Project i was talking about was This one. Sure, it cost a cool 1/4 of a Mil at the time, but this was back in 98 and 99. costs have dropped, prossessing power is increased, blah, blah, blah..

    --

    What are we going to do tonight Brain?
  39. That's what I mean by Faust7 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Frankly, I don't want the fastest computer chips on the desktop to be designed by a company in another country (even if Intel makes them outside of the US) and I would rather that the cutting edge, be cut here, in my native country.

    Good lord, why? Is it just national/istic pride? I see that as something to be outgrown with respect to driving, receiving, and appreciating scientific discoveries and technological advancements. Honestly, if Japan were to come out with, say, the first mass-produced DNA computer, I wouldn't be the slightest bit bitter, or reluctant to take advantage of it. I regularly praise other countries for doing things the U.S. hasn't.

    German physicists were primarily responsible for breakthroughs in their field in the 19th and early 20th centuries, and during that period there was quite a bit of resentment from American politicians and scientists whose feelings boiled down to nothing more than "We should have gotten there first." I won't argue that fierce competition has been beneficial to mankind at large (we've seen it in the computer industry, after all) but I don't think I'm wrong in wanting the motivation to be something a little less self-centered, political, immature. An idealistic vision? Hardly. It's not too much of an expectation for us to evolve beyond petty glare-throwing.

    1. Re:That's what I mean by deek · · Score: 1
      • Good lord, why? Is it just national/istic pride? I see that as something to be outgrown with respect to driving, receiving, and appreciating scientific discoveries and technological advancements.


      Speaking as one who has played Civilisation until the late hours of the morning, I can confidently say that the country with the most advanced technology, wins.
    2. Re:That's what I mean by Pharmboy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Speaking as one who has played Civilisation until the late hours of the morning, I can confidently say that the country with the most advanced technology, wins.

      That term makes a lot of people uncomfortable: win.

      People assume that when you have winners, you must have losers. While this is true in Civilization, it need not be true in life. It is true that when America innovates, it may benefit more, but everyone else that uses the product can benefit as well.

      America put more money into developing the Internet, through DARPA, starting in 1969, and many of the companies (not all) that build equipment for using the Internet, from computers to routers, are American companies. But this has created tons of jobs in China and other countries, sparked competition in Europe and the Pacific Rim, and has created many jobs along the way. America certainly didn't do it alone, but it was the Cold War and the space race that fueled much of DARPA, and now, in its adolesence, the internet is just as accessible in England, France, Japan, Brazil or America, and its getting better every year for poorer countries. In this respect, there are winners, and those who are doing better.

      We win in that we develop the most technology, but since it shared, there are very few losers. Some have a problem with the fact that we benefit more, at least initially. Some will always have problems when one group benefits more. I just don't share their world view. I think it was Winston Churchill that said "Capitalism is wealth distributed unequally. Socialism is misery shared equally." (something like that)

      Like most of us, I have no issue with sharing technology and helping others, but I still want to be on the winning team.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
  40. Job security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They just want more job security.

    "We spent US$35,000,000 on this supercomputer that can't be used for any other purpose. If you shut down the program, that money will have been wasted."

  41. Rise of the Specialized Machines by wonton_mein · · Score: 1

    In his book, After the Internet: Alien Intelligence, James Martin predicted the future will be dominated by highly specialized "machines" tailored to perform a limited set of tasks. His vision of AI is quite different from what we call it today.

  42. Link to the Earth Simulator Center by GeoGreg · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If you'd like to see what these people are up to for yourself, here is a link to their website. Lots of performance data, lists of projects, etc.

  43. What happened to superconducting computers? by DRWHOISME · · Score: 1
    superconducting supercomputers were all the rage and then havent heard anything new.

    Could someone with knowledge on supercomputers tell me the story here. thanks.

    superconductor computer petaflop

  44. Not just for climate modeling by GeoGreg · · Score: 3, Informative

    There seems to be an impression in some comments that this machine has some sort of special design that's only applicable to climate modeling problems. In fact, this is a vector-based supercomputer, applicable to any problem where you need to perform vector operations (i.e., operating on large arrays of numbers in parallel).

    Certain numerical operations can be performed blindingly fast on these types of machines. Each arithmetic processor on this machine has 72 vector registers, each of which can hold 256 elements. Then you can perform operations on all 256 elements of 1 or more registers simultaneously! If the algorithm can keep the vector units fed, they will scream.

    Since keeping data flowing to the processors is critical to speed, the high-speed interconnects (~12GB/s) are a must for any problem that is not completely localized. It's all about matching the problem to the hardware. There may well be problems for which a commodity cluster just can't get the job done like this can. Remember that each node of a cluster consumes power, produces heat, and takes up space. The raw cost of hardware is not the only consideration.

  45. NSA? by heli0 · · Score: 1

    Is there any speculation out there about what type of supercomputers the NSA has? Their budget is off the record (estimated $6Billion+/yr) and surely they have interest in cracking all of those 4096-bit encrypted messages sent between the US and Saudi Arabia et al.

    --
    Whenever the offence inspires less horror than the punishment, the rigour of penal law is obliged to give way...
    1. Re:NSA? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah $6Billion eh?

      Where was the NSA on 9/11?

      What do all these suites do?

      They suck your blood!!
      Sucker or suckee

  46. Re:parallel FPGA supercomputers? by DRWHOISME · · Score: 1
    link for you. Hal computer

    I would love these chips to mass produced for desktops.

  47. Interesting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who the hell modded this up?

    Those supercomputers DRIVE the progress that gives you multi-Ghz personal computers! You might as well stop spending your money on those frivolous pee-cee things altogether.
    Parent post is grossly overrated.

  48. Re:parallel FPGA supercomputers? by Erik_the_Awful · · Score: 0

    This guy came up with a way to evolve designs for FPGAs.

    Article at New Scientist

    Basically, he setup a number of FPGAs to acomplish a certian goal (testing a human generated sound like the work "GO") by setting up a "standard genetic algorithm to evolve a configuration program for an FPGA." His hardware basically evolved to acomplish the defined task. I'd like to read about someone doing this on a grander scale... Say 1024 FPGAs?
    -EtA

  49. Nuts to that by DeathPenguin · · Score: 2, Informative

    Earth Simulator is impressive in its own reguard, but in no way is the majority of clustering apps going toward these 'specialized' systems. Governments, research labs, etc. want powerful computers that are dirt cheap. Los Alamos's ASCI Q (Installment 1, the Alpha servers) cost over $100,000,000 to build, while their Pink cluster cost about $6,000,000 in hardware. On paper, Pink and ASCI Q are both around 10 teraflops. ASCI Q runs Quadrics on 64-bit 66MHz PCI, Pink is getting an ugprade to Myrinet Lanai 10 on PCI-X (From Lanai 9 on 64/66PCI). Not only that, but Pink runs the open-source, 100% GPL'd Clustermatic software and can be booted in a matter of seconds rather than hours like ASCI Q.

    The fact is, systems like ASCI Q and the Earth Simulator just aren't practical. They may look great on paper, but there's not much that they can do that can't be done on x86. Given the choice between paying over a hundred million for a proprietary cluster that might not even be all that reliable (*cough*Q*cough*) and requires expensive software and maintenance contracts, we see companies like Linux Networx offering high-power clusters on common hardware and free software that are a fraction as expensive.

    As far as reliability goes, don't get suckered into thinking that proprietary and expensive mean quality. Q's failure rate is almost as high as my old Windows '98 machine hahaha. With the exception of a few missing chillers, Pink seems relatively healthy with only a few minor failures.

    If CRAY and NEC want to get into a pissing contest in specs, that's fine. If they offer something that Intel can't, more power to them. Otherwise, the five organizations in the world that own their systems can be proud that they have the most powerful computer on paper for a year or two before someone builds a cheaper x86 cluster that matches or out-performs them.

    1. Re:Nuts to that by afidel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, the customized vector machines will usually achieve a MUCH higher %age of their theoretical peak computational capacity on certain "hard" problems then a cluster of comodity machines. The nearness of the nodes dictates that, if the average near neighbor latency is an order of magnitude faster then problems that are communications bound are going to be able to achieve much higher throughput on a tightly coupled cluster of faster, more specialized nodes then they would be able to on a larger more loosly coupled cluster of comodity systems. If your problem happens to be one which is trivially paralized and you are not hamstrung by limitations like the 4GB limit on 32bit CPU's then of course you should use the cluster of cheap systems, but if you have a problem which has no such mapping then the only way to effectivly achieve your goals might be a custom machine like the Cray SV series or the NEC SX series. Just because a particular machine has a bad track record doesn't mean that a whole class of systems should be condemned, on the contrary, many supercomputer centers have had good luck with their vector machines.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    2. Re:Nuts to that by evilviper · · Score: 1
      Los Alamos's ASCI Q (Installment 1, the Alpha servers) cost over $100,000,000 to build, while their Pink cluster cost about $6,000,000 in hardware. On paper, Pink and ASCI Q are both around 10 teraflops.

      Big Whoop. My $200 desktop computer is faster than the super-computers of just a decade ago... What good does that do exactly?

      My point is that you can't compare two systems unless they were installed in the same time-frame.

      Also, saying that a cluster of comodity hardware is better than a supercomputer completely ignores things like maintenance costs, heat output, and the sheer power used to keep it running.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    3. Re:Nuts to that by joib · · Score: 1

      ASCI Q and Pink where both in fact installed in the same time frame. Actually, both of these can be classified as clusters. I guess the point was that ASCI Q is a cluster of DEC, uh Compaq, sorry, HP Alpha machines (=expensive) while Pink is a x86 cluster running Linux.

  50. Idle Time by complete+loony · · Score: 1
    "The new Cray supercomputers can execute an infinite loop in under a second"
    Can't remember where I heard that though.

    If these big supercomputers are so underutilized, why not run some public distributed projects on them in their spare time. (SETI, distributed.net, folding@home etc)

    --
    09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
  51. seti and custom computers by way2trivial · · Score: 1

    I've wondered, what would a mass produced box capable of running seti@home cost? something I could plug into my router, and the power, send it my user name, and let it burn through seti packets. hmmm

    --
    every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
  52. what you mention is interesting... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's interesting that you say "Cray is back."

    I'm from Minnesota, and graduated from the University of Minnesota (which Cray is associated with; I think Cray graduated from the U of Minnesota). I remember not too long ago people were lamenting the "death" of Cray and its loss from the state because people were abandoning specialized supercomputers for clusters.

    It's really interesting to me that these specialized machines are making a comeback. In some sense, I feel deeply satisfied that the two different architectures are now both being recognized. In another sense, I'm saddened that specialized hardware was abandoned in the rush to cluster architecture. I love supercomputing, and am glad to see a renaissance of sorts, but there's something sad to me about the fact that certain things got neglected in the process. While clustering was growing, Cray was tossed around a lot. It's too bad there couldn't have been more of a balance all along.

  53. Yes, they DO offer something that "intel" can't. by mbkennel · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That is the whole point.

    I have the feeling the DOE (nuclear weapon simulation etc) simulation program is not going anywhere near as well as it was sold.

    Massive commodity clusters boast big numbers but they do not boast great useful throughput of USEFUL RESULTS. (also with massive clusters
    you have to be able to deal with inevitable hardware failures).

    You have a certain fluid problem---there is a certain speed of sound, and a certain physical geometry. What you want to do is to be able to simulate the real thing at ever smaller grid-sizes, that is, with greater numerical approximations to the physical fields.

    Ideally, if your problem were embarassingly parallel and clusterizable, then you could put any number of grid points on each CPU and crunch away. You want more grid points? buy more CPUs.

    The problem is that in actual physics the length scale of 'interaction' per time step does NOT go down---remember, speed of sound is constant as is physical geometry---imagine for instance the uh, radiative driven implosion of a certain unspecified dense material in spherical or cylinderical geometry into one unspecified not-dense material.

    So when you scale-up in the scientifically useful sense---and not the computer nerd sense---then a problem which used to be solvable efficiently on clusters NO LONGER IS SO. There is just too much communication, and this is driven by physical reality.

    It is not 'OK' to just say "change your code". The codes are developed with mathematical methods and based on experimental data gleaned over literally decades at great expense.

    Programming for these is not easy---but it is quite a bit easier for the large vector old-skool cray type machines than the clusters, where the human has to do almost all the scutwork (e.g. MPI).

    The problem is actually more severe with the DOE fluids problem---there are fundamental mathematical issues in the nearly inviscid flow (singular perturbation theory baby) which have not yet been resolved. And they appear at smaller and smaller grid sizes.

    This requires rapid development of models and validation at the physically important resolutions and you can't do this with a cluster.

    I have no inside information whatsoever but I smell that the sudden DOE and DOD interest in back-to-the-future retrosupercomputing is because of some major failures in the recent cluster efforts.

  54. In the real world its a bit more complicated... by depeche · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There is also a direct trade-off between more general purpose systems and systems custom tailored to a task. Good examples are Deep Blue and Blue Gene. Both of these systems are designed with a particular task in mind (i.e. chess and protein folding) and therefor are able to leverage knowledge about the problem space to constrain the kind of hardware, the particular low-level instructions and the information flow within the system while achieving signifigantly greater performance on a small class of problems. I work with clusters that are used in scientific communities that have various researchers working on various problems. In these cases, the questions are about basic applicability of a particular problem to a particular architecture. For example a cluster with high-speed interconnects made of good COTS hardware will allow a user with a very granular problem to effectively use the cluster and it will also allow a user who needs the high speed interconnect because the problem space demands a high degree of internal communication. But the first researcher might also be able to make use of a grid of (for instance) many more computers with a total lower cost because (s)he doesn't need the high speed interconnect. The Earth Simulator gains a lot of performance (on a class of problems) because of the underlying vector processor architecture. Given the right internal bus it is conceivable that adding vector processor daughter boards to the next generation of COTS clusters could achieve similar results--but, of course, only for problem spaces that make efficient use of such processors and aren't bottlenecked by the communication requirements.

    Real answers are always more complicated. For example: the equations needed for nuclear simulation will probably require dedicated hardware (as the need for protein folding has lead to Blue Gene) to achieve the results that the Pentagon needs. But for many super computing tasks, the flexibility of COTS clusters will still be compelling, especially for areas where the algorithms are not yet fully developed (e.g. brain simulation). An interesting keynote at OLS 2003 argued that (some of) the problems are not going to be the local computing power but the need to move large quantities of data between research labs across the world and combine computational systems using the 'grid.' (For a down home examples of problems that have been successfully tackled through course granular distribution just look at SETI@Home and Distributed.Net. So its not just the flops anymore...

    1. Re:In the real world its a bit more complicated... by regen · · Score: 0
      I used to work at IBM with the custom supercomputers preceed Deep Blue. This was the EVE(Engineering Verification Engine) and EVE2, which were specialized logic simulation computers. Using this specialized hardware, we could realize a 2000x (the EVE2 was even faster, but was never fully deployed) increase or more in cycles simulated per second over what could be achieve using "normal" supercomputers. Specialization make a huge difference.

      BTW, the switch designed for the EVE became the core of IBM supercomputers such as Deep Blue and Blue Gene.

    2. Re:In the real world its a bit more complicated... by dkf · · Score: 1

      Heh. The Grid as the solution to everyone's problems? The Grid would work better if it had occurred to people that not everyone wants to configure their machines the same way. But oh, some people have thought of that. Just not anyone doing design of systems based on Globus. That's what comes of only using one application area though...

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
  55. Re:parallel FPGA supercomputers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You'll take a huge hit in price. Big FPGAs are expensive. Being programmable also costs a lot of density. Finally, FPGAs are slow.

    Xylinx's current top of the line part costs about $8000, has 8 million "system gates" (if you happen to have a design that uses the chip in just the perfect proportions), and clocks up to 300 MHz. To compare with a particular ASIC designed for computation, a Pentium 4 costs about $400, has about 55 million transistors, and clocks over 3 GHz. You're looking at something over 1000 times the cost effectiveness. There's a reason why people haven't replaced all electronics with big slabs of FPGAness.

    I wouldn't count on programmability to necessarily make that up. If you've got a big, important, problem to solve, you can afford dedicated hardware. Besides, if you've got a working FPGA design, you can fab it with little effort, and get an even more effective system.

  56. gaming console vs. PC reminder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    I think that when discussions... ok, arguments, are about this subject there are similar considerations. It is foolish to confuse a step forward with a revolutionary leap away that leaves the current methods in obsolecense. It is great to learn from what the Japanese did but lets not start scrapping the fleet just yet. Perhaps there will be a solution that is superior to either and is a "best of both worlds?" I don't know... I am not an export in either supercomputing or distributed processing.

    I do know that the same stupid ego's are in place using more "official" buzz words. I sometimes mute the sound from discussions like this and play a round of lip sync. I replace all the crap they spew with 1337 speak and try to imagine everyone as pimply faced 16 year olds... its not hard, believe me. I have yet to see a demonstration of professionalism and maturity from the scientific community or the political side that spawns and is spawned by it.

  57. Re:New Poll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I pick number 4.

  58. Specialized computers by ziegast · · Score: 1

    Call this flamebait or troll, but we don't need no stinkin' supercomputers!

    The primary uses of supercomputers that I've read about are to perform simulations of real-world phenomena. It might be possible to contruct circuitry that makes a computer more efficient at a series of specialized computing tasks. It's arguably more efficient to not use supercomputers.

    (DANGER - intentional lack of sentitivity below)

    Examples:

    1. Genomic research - inject experimental drugs into real-live humans. If a higher percentage live or improve, great. If not, the world has too many people anyway. Mutants rule!

    2. Nuclear simulations - find a large desert or remote tropical island and nuke it. For studies of effects of radiation on humans - see 1.

    3. Weather prediction - use a desktop computer and a weatherman's intuition to give 80% accuracy for what's reported. If your weatherperson is entertaining or easy on the eyes, people won't care about the 20% of the time that they're dead wrong. (Eg: www.nakednews.com)

    4. Chess - Watching two people play chess is dull. Watching a person play a computer is dull and pointless. Watching two computers play each other is merely a senseless benchmark test.

    5. America's Cup Sailboats - A sailboat is a hole in the water into which you pour money. The faster the sailboat, the faster you pour money into it. Arrrr, matey!

    6. SETI - If there's intelligent life out there, it will either take thousands of years for them to reach us (normal sublight travel) or they will arrive here faster than any of their radio signals ever will. Let future generations tackle the problem when we can use orbital or lunar radio telescopes after we solve our own problems on Earth.

    7. Cryptography - Social engineering is the most effective breaker of computer codes. Never underestimate the power of a wooden stick to extract secret keys from unbreakable coiphers.

    8. Energy resource discovery - If it weren't for the damned environmentalists, we wouldn't care about drilling holes wherever the oil companies want to.

    9. Video games - Oh wait, this would actually be a great use for a supercomputer. We'll call it the Metaverse or "The Matrix". <drool>

    I'm insensitive, you insensitive clod!

    1. Re:Specialized computers by meadowsp · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I think I hear your mommy calling you, better run along now...

  59. Winning by Steeltoe · · Score: 0, Troll

    People see themselves as "winning", often when they trample on others. This is because of a mis-identification. People identify with THEIR OWN community, nationality, religion and other personal bias. Instead, if you identify with yourself being a human- or spiritual being, you will see that there are only other human beings around you. Not muslims, not christians, not japanese, not even lawyers.

    America and UK is not really very secure. It doesn't help to have the best defence in the world, when you're acting like spoiled brats who decide for others what's "best for the world". America is supporting known terrorist groups worldwide, and have a history of occupying other nations for the worst reasons. Most international problems, America has generated for itself. It doesn't help to be so advanced and win, when you get the world to hate you.

    It's all because of misidentification and ignorance. Especially in America, where people believe "USA is the world". Humility can be a hard lesson, one that is due for a long time "Over There".

    1. Re:Winning by FroMan · · Score: 1

      People see themselves as "winning", often when they trample on others. This is because of a mis-identification. People identify with THEIR OWN community, nationality, religion and other personal bias. Instead, if you identify with yourself being a human- or spiritual being, you will see that there are only other human beings around you. Not muslims, not christians, not japanese, not even lawyers.

      He says first...

      It's all because of misidentification and ignorance. Especially in America, where people believe "USA is the world". Humility can be a hard lesson, one that is due for a long time "Over There".

      You're an anti-american bigot. Deal with it. The americans are not "other human beings" to you, they are the "spoiled brats" of the world to you.

      -1, You are a hypocrit.

      --
      Norris/Palin 2012
      Fact: We deserve leaders who can kick your ass and field dress your carcass.
    2. Re:Winning by Steeltoe · · Score: 1

      You're an anti-american bigot. Deal with it. The americans are not "other human beings" to you, they are the "spoiled brats" of the world to you.

      I admit, it may seem like you have a point and I could tone down on it. However, I only say what I observe and have actually spoken to americans who have told me this themselves. Ie, I got this from educated american disgusted with their own society and leaders. I didn't come up with this myself..

      Try to look at your own culture, what ideals you foster. It's very educational to take a critical look and ask others what they think. Where is the "American Dream" today? You have to admit, there's something strange going on these days..

      I'm not saying Americans are the "bad guys". I'm just pointing out what is obvious to people here in Europe, just like you can spot how we can be, annoying and irritatingly socialist ;-) Besides that, we never want to go to war, except when a maniac leader/fundamentalists/fascists starts one ;-)

      With the recent war and all, and the previous poster praising the winners, I can only say what I've learned about it. It might be unfair to single out America, but I'm no bigot. Nobody is the "bad guy", everybody does what they think is best with the limited understanding they have. That is why education and critical analysis is very important today.

      OTOH, America is a very fine country in many ways. It has created alot of the ideals present in many countries all over the world. Shown the way to freedom, democracy, righteousness and action. It's got an abundance of positive qualities. The people are cool and caring, wishing to do the right thing and protect the world.

      Now don't let that go up to your collective heads ;-)

  60. Mmm, Didn't Turing do that 55 years ago? by Moderation+abuser · · Score: 1

    With the Bombe and Colossus machines?

    --
    Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
  61. Custom, but not specialized by Pierre+Phaneuf · · Score: 1

    While the Earth Simulator might be custom in a sense (you can't order Earth Simulator nodes, for example), they are NOT specialized, or at least not very much.

    The Earth Simulator nodes are the prototypes of the SX-6, so yes, they are custom-built, like all prototypes are. A fully-loaded SX-6 is very nearly the same as an Earth Simulator node, and the same interconnect is also available for the SX-6. I think one of the difference, beside the paint job, is slightly more efficient memory timings on the SX-6, so actually, the commercially-available version is actually BETTER!

    But I guess you wouldn't be able to call an SX-6 "off the shelf"...

    Both Earth Simulator and SX-6 runs a (putrid, but that's off-topic!) Unix variant which runs directly on the main processor, it isn't one of these designs with an off-the-shelf processor for the OS and management, and a specialized coprocessor for accelerating computations. It can operate on a variety of problems with equivalent ability. As for their power, that's what you get when you put lots and lots of vector pipes in processor: the SX-5 could do around 4096 floating point operations per clock cycle (if they are all the same!) and had a 256 *bytes* wide memory bus (compared the the puny "one flop every few clock cycle" of a Pentium 4, and its tiny 64 bit memory bus). I don't have the info for SX-6, but it is similar...

    "Vector computers" might have been called "SIMD computers" instead, in the recent history.

    They are in fact using more and more off-the-shelf hardware, having switched from HiPPI for networking and disk access to gigabit ethernet and fibre channel, respectively.

    Disclaimer/credentials: I used to work for NEC's North American supercomputer subsidiary, then for Cray, who is currently NEC's distributor in America.