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How Objective Is Microsoft's Search?
bot writes "There have been a number of stories on Microsoft trying to do a 'Netscape' on Google.. what would a world in which Microsoft provides search look like? A search for 'linux' on msn.com give amazon and ebay as the top two results, and a microsoft site promoting migration from Linux to Windows as the fourth listing. A search on MSN India is even more amusing -- the top result is a dead link, and the second one is Linuxsucks.com."
I think an MS search would look like any other kind of anal sex on the internet.
makes me a firm believer in the fact that Microsoft is not objective in any way. Then again, neither is any company, but hey, it's Slashdot, where Microsoft bashing is almost a national pastime :)
The top links are for 'featured sites' (~= 'ads') and 'sponsored sites' (~= 'ads') and after you get past the ads, the results are roughly similar to google's results, with linux.org and redhat.com being in the same #1 and #3 spots, and linuxjournal surpassing linux.com as the #2 spot.
My journal has hot
Is it just me, or has this been posted before? Or does Microsoft just do so amny stupid things that it all just blends together?
if(!cool) exit(-1);
And finally:
Just because you have a spine and refuse to do business with Microsoft and/or the mob, doesn't make you a "zealot".
A search from msn.ca on the term "linux" gave some reasonable results I think. There was Linux.com as the first, followed by sites like linuxcanada.com, some provincial/city linux organizations from places like Edmonton, BC and Alberta, some links to online linux certification classes.
Doesn't seem too unreasonable to me and it was interesting to see how tailored the results were given there were a lot of canadian sites up there and canadian area linux organization links. I have to say I was actually impressed given what I was ready to see from the headline of this article
I can only imagine the look on thier faces when they see how many times "Linux" has been queried on their search engine in a single day.
MSN Search: Linux -- More Useful Everyday
:)
so they got something right
I and others mentioned this awhile back in the article about MS trying to overtake Google. In all honesty, this may just be a flaw in their search algorithm. It's obvious that they're accepting payola for rankings, so if their algorithm looks like:
1. Return results on top payer (Amazon?)
2. Return results on other payers (Ebay, etc)
3. Return results from a search of Microsoft's site
4. Return the reults from a search of the internet
Then linux isn't singled out. Of course we can speculate all we want to, since this is Slashdot and everything is a conspiracy. In all honesty it looks fishy, but if my above theory about their algorithm is true it makes perfect sense. Sorry MS, but if you want to replace Google on the internet, you need to be OBJECTIVE. Right now you're just another search engone, and a crappy one at that.
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
Everybody knows that the 1.0 release of every Microsoft product sucks. But for the markets they want to take over, they are often able to squash the competition by v. 3.0 or 4.0.
Google's obviously done a fantastic job so far in the search world. But then, Netscape did a fantastic job with Navigator until it turned into Communicator bloatware. Then Microsoft came out with a 4.0 release that ate Netscape's lunch.
Google clearly has the brains to fight, but do they have the resources to remain the #1 engine, now that The Dark Lord has decided he wants that particular crown?
In any case, MS often has the last laugh over people who ridicule their 1.0 releases.
I'm generally "Interesting," "Insightful," and even "Funny" here. What the hell happens to me at parties?
Never attribute to malice what you can explain by stupidity.
Indian search on Windows. Only 10th result is good. First one is Windows Media Player, 2-6 are about Tablet PC with the same page for WinXP for Tablets appearing twice. There are also such wonders of relevance as Windows into the Soul of Satyajit Ray and Windows to the Universe - Jupiter.
Search for Windows at MSN is only marginally better. The poster of the story overlooked that first 4-6 results are "Featured sites", which (as well as "sponsored") is the marketese for "advertisements". Amazon will happily sell to MSN searchers practically everything. Heck, the second result for shit offers that I "Purchase Expensive Shit" on Amazon. I shit you not.
There are other gems at the MSN, like a "featured" result, suggesting that "MSN 8 offers a better browsing experience: Try it free for 60 days." when you search for netscape or gnu.org results starting after 12th position when you search for gnu. The first result, of course, being the famous E-gnu.com African Safari Travel...
MSN (despite their claims to the contrary) is a mix between marketing crap and inferior technology. Thanks, I will pass.
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
If Microsoft wants to compete and beat Google then the results of a search will have to be relevant. If they are not, then people will continue to use Google.
Would you continue to use a particular phone book if it failed to supply you with accurate or consistent phone numbers? Of course not and you would tell your friends the same thing. Word of mouth is still the most powerful force the Internet has and if the Microsoft search engine supplies searches with "sponsored" links or sub-quality links that do fuck all for your search then that is going to get around.
End of story.
Linuxiso.org is a featured site. We even get a little MS butterfly.C HECKED&FORM= MSNH&v=1&q=linuxiso
http://search.msn.com/results.asp?RS=
Their search is wierd ... it is a cross between a search and a directory.
They have the paid "feature sites", then the "web directory sites", and only then the rest of the stuff, which autmoatically puts all the non-commercial things onto page 2. Screw that. I prefer Google, mainly because the paid-for stuff is at the side and yoou cna get right to the results faster.
No definititve information, but oddly enough the DNS technical contact is based out of Washington. Coincidence?...
Registrant:
Sucks, Linux (LINUXSUCKS2-DOM)
LinuxSucks
1 my way
my way, TN 43365
US
Domain Name: LINUXSUCKS.COM
Administrative Contact:
Sucks, Linux (KG4621) linux__sucks@HOTMAIL.COM
LinuxSucks
1 my way
my way, TN 43365
US
(221) 261-3088 fax: (914) 296-1088
Technical Contact:
Go2Net, Inc. (DA3706-ORG) dns-admin@HYPERMART.NET
Go2Net, Inc.
999 Third Ave, Ste 4700
Seattle, WA 98104
US
206.447.1595F fax: - - - - - 206.447.1625
Record expires on 08-Oct-2003.
Record created on 09-Oct-2002.
Database last updated on 24-Aug-2003 16:51:07 EDT.
Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.HYPERMART.NET 66.150.0.50
NS2.HYPERMART.NET 206.29.192.47
All your base are belong to us!
Facts and reasoning in a Slashdot article? No need for us to get in a hissy-fit over nothing? How dare thee blaspheme our view of the world!
"Sufferin' succotash."
Look this 'google' seach in msn search. You will notice that below 'google' as first entry, is MSN Search...
Another interesing thing: A frind of mine tell me that the word 'Linux' doesn't exists in Encarta 2003 DVD :-D When you search for 'linux', it shows 2 non-related topics
And.. will you trust in a 'Microsoft Wallet'? :-D
drmad
A search on msn.com also brings up the rather amusing
http://tech.msn.com/software/OS/Linux/
section of the MSN website. Watch MS try and sell you boxed RedHat!
The domain www.linuxsucks.com is owned by a company called InfoSpace Inc. Microsoft has VERY strong ties to InfoSpace Inc. as Microsoft featured it as a company that saved money and improved reliability by using Microsoft's garbage... er... I mean software:
C as eStudy.asp?CaseStudyID=13920
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/casestudies/
And there's more than that, do a search for "Infospace inc" and Microsoft on Google and you'll find many more connections between the companies.
So, don't let the amateurish appearance fool you, while linuxsucks.com appears to be written by ordinary people simply expressing a point of view, it's actually a well funded website with a clear agenda.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
There have been a couple attempts at it, and there are a few currently in development. The problem is, a search engine in an expensive thing to run. You need tons of processing power, storage space, and bandwidth. These things are not free, nor are they cheap. (well, maybe storage space is)
You'd also need to pay engineers to maintain it. It would be a full time job for several people, and you're not gonna get people doing THAT for free.
I think google does a pretty good job of balancing commercialism with a very functional fast search engine. I see no need for anything else right now.
This message brought to you by the Council of People Who Are Sick of Seeing More People.
Microsoft has been proven in court to be a monopoly, and this is how monopolies work.
People should not fear their government. Governments should fear their people.
Oh yeah. That's quality reporting there :)
And do a search on google for the letter "s" (which I do accidentally all the time since I occasionally mess up using firebirds keyword search) and see what comes up on top.
I bet the people who wrote that Apache->IIS migration page are pretty excited to see people actually reading it all of a sudden.
Latest News: microsoft
It cuts both ways :)
I was starting up an MS program today and came across the following error:
SoBigF is not your default worm
would you like to make this your
default worm?
click yes cancel
MoFscker
Does noone remember the google search "go to hell" with microsoft as the top result. This is bad but its not the first time we've seen biased search results.
On the other hand, Mozilla turns up as a "Top Pick" on the same msn search page
Has someone else noted the slight difference in numbers of hits? 542 on MSN vs some 59,300,000 on Google?
Does anyone know why?
It's pretty obvious that the results on MSN are biased. Do a search for open source on MSN. You get back a bunch of results that don't really apply. That is, except for the first result, which is an article on Infoworld about how SCO is hurting the open source movement. Now do the same search on Google--the results are _much_ more appropriate.
The first pick is the FBSD project home.
I guess they dont see *bsd as much of a threat, today.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
The MSN search is not necessarily evil, just totally helpless. MSN only find 542 documents containing "linux" while Google finds 21,000,000. The fact that Amazon comes up first just means that MSN search has very bad rankings.
Just for giggles, I did a search for "SCO" and you wouldn't believe what I found at the #1 "Featured Site":
# Santa Cruz Operation Top Pick
Long-time vendor of UNIX for PCs has made the transition to Linux. [emphasis mine] Learn about their consulting services and their software offerings.
www.sco.com
The dogcow says "Moof!"
This might take a bit, but bear with me. On google.com, you can search for how many times a site is linked from another site. You use the command (e.g.) link:www.websitehere.com This search is very cool to discern how popular a site is. For example, google.com itself is linked almost a half million times. Yahoo, well over a million times.
However, www.msn.com has a lot fewer than half million. Fewer than a thousand even! In fact, there are only 51 (yes, Fifty One) People in the world who link to www.msn.com. www.MSNBC fares even worse with 7 (SEVEN) links to it. Compare this to www.cnn.com with 74,000 links.
What does this mean? Well, if you consider these links as votes (which they are... if you like a site, you link it from your website or blog), it means that no one likes MSN or MSNBC at all. But, i wonder, why do people still go to these sites? The only answer i can give is this: Monopolistic practice. If you have almost a complete monopoly on the desktop, and you link your website on every one, of course you'll get some people to go to it. Could this example be used in a court case? Possibly, i guess (IANAL, but my bro-in law is
Do what you want with this info, i just thought the /. crowd would like to see this.
Just click the "Introducing Linux" link. It brings you to another msn page saying "Red Hat 9.0 is a boon for those who already use it, but it's too expensive to warrant a switch from Windows."
The following links aren't much better. They have this carefully hand-crafted look to them. "Alternatives to Linux", "Linux Training, only $2095 for 5 days", etc.
It's funny to see how far the world's biggest software company will go to bash free software rather than trying to beat them with better software. They've got enough spare cash to hire a hundred thousand programmers for ten years. They could basically write a new operating system from the ground up that runs almost anything on almost anything (assuming enough ram & hard disk space), and does it well, but instead they have probably under a thousand people developing their products and they're getting roughed up by dozens of open source teams of 1-20 active developers each. Not to mention that they sell a stripped down version of Windows to their main audience, when they could give everyone copies of their best version and only see a small drop in sales. Their licensing strategy is holding them back.
A quick search for best operating system results in:
Microsoft weigh in at number 21....
Do you need a website upgrade?
Search for "more evil than satan himself" and the first five matches are still to or about Microsoft!
I swear, back when I was using IE 3, whenever I typed in www.netscape.com it would come up with a page not found window. But the second time I went to it, it went there fine.
--- to swing on the spiral...
Well, that seems telling to me! There isn't enough web crawling from MSNBOT to justify a search engine, from what I've seen. I see _way_ more traffic from the IBM almaden web bot (945 visits), for example.
Of course, this begs the question: who is doing the web crawling for MSN? I find it hard to believe that MSNBOT is the main crawler. Today, for example I found girafabot in my logs. A visit to their web site shows an association with MSN..
I agree, it does, and will, suck for the first few versions. But enough people will still use it because it is the default, and MS will make enough money selling ads to support their continuing to develop it.
But I don't think the analogy with Netscape is a good comparison. What allowed IE to seize the market share was that Netscape went dormant for a year while MS continued to advance. By the time Netscape woke up, they were far behind. That will not happen with Google. Google has a big head start, and I'm sure they will not just lay down and let themselves be run over like Netscape did.
I hope you are right about MS not being able to pull this off. They have failed quite a few times.
One more thing - watch for the next version of IE to lock out the Google Toolbar, probably in the name of security. Then I wouldn't be surprised if they use the DMCA club to keep it locked out.
People should not fear their government. Governments should fear their people.
Searching search.msn.com for "linux" will really highlight the weakness of MSN's search features -- the results are actually supplied by three different companies, then stitched together.
MSN provides up to five "featured" sites for a search phrase, usually to companies that have marketing relationships with MSN (like Amazon or eBay).
Overture gets to throw three "sponsored" sites at the top of every page of results, so these are companies who bid to be shown for a particular search term.
LookSmart provides the "directory" results. Of course, you get into the LookSmart directory by paying a fee to have your URL(s) associated with certain (a) certain search phrase(s). In the case of a search for "linux", you have to wade through 400+ directory results before you get to...
"Web" results, which are provided by Inktomi. Inktomi's engine collects URLs in one of two ways: through a regular crawl of the Web (like any search engine), and through a fee-based "paid inclusion" program where companies can submit their sites through a direct XML feed into the Inktomi index.
At least, that's the way it works for now. Given that both Inktomi and Overture have been bought by Yahoo!, there's very little chance that Microsoft wants MSN to fatten a competitor's coffers. Microsoft's moving as fast as they can to get their own technology in shape to replace the outside vendors. But MSN Search isn't powered by Microsoft quite yet.
True, but version 5 and 6 still suck. It has something to do with their bizare goals. They are not in business to make a better browser, GUI, search engine or anything like that. They are in business to make money and they pervert their program's functionality to achieve that any way they can. So, M$'s GUI is sold like a billboard to the highest biders, their OS forces depencence on M$ servers, M$'s browser pushes whatever M$ feels like, Windoze updater breaks unix compatibility and their search engine delivers a message. Microsoft makes things do what it wants them to do, not what their custormers want.
A search for Linux cancer is instructive. Someone just reading the story summaries would conclude that The Register and O'Riely think Linux and the GPL are bad. Additionally, the casual reader would conclude that Linux vendors are going out of business and that Paladium is "clever". These quotes are so targeted and numerous that it must be intentional. I'll quote what it produced because, M$ is known to change things like this:
The more I look at that list, the more respect I have for the designers of that search engine. It's brilliantly able to force the Microsoft message into even the most hostile of mouths. Ha, they call me a troll and put atribute words to me I never wrote. Compare that to the results Google gives, which looks more like what the user would want to see. Microsoft is evil and this is what an evil search engine looks like. Oh well, thats one search engine I never used before and will never use again. I also don't read or watch MSNBC news, yes, they suck too.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
They must have a full time Linux correspondent, eh? :)
.02
cLive ;-)
-- Trinity in high heels carrying a whip: The donimatrix - there is no spoonerism
Although MSN would have you believe that thier search feature is a service offered to users, it is clearly a marketing tool from end to end.
In order to be listed at MSN, you must deal with Looksmart, a company that touts itself as "the global leader in paid inclusions". In other words, Microsoft's MSN Search is not in the business of helping you find what you are looking for, but the business of making sure you go where thier customers want you to go.
Google, on the other hand is a search company, that specialized in search technologies, for your corporate intranet or for your web page before they added advertising, first, to thier search page and later to your own page.
While there is no doubt that Google Advertising is a large part of thier revenue, the success of Google Adverts is due to thier apropriateness to the viewer of the page. This appropriateness is only possible if there is an attempt to keep the pagerank formula somewhat objective.
IMHO, Google's business model is the stronger, because they are not attempting the impossible task of keeping the viewer while simultaneously attempting to manipulate him (like MSN is), and the advertising model that Google has created is the only advertising that I would allow on a page of my own.
Read, L
And I'm saying that it's easy to accidently consider them part of the search. I did, and I was expecting something along those lines.
At some point, you have to say that being truthful but misleading goes too far. If you have something in your Policy Agreement twenty paragrahs in that says that the first seven hits are ads, I consider that not acceptable. Microsoft is numbering their ads as if they are actual search results. They label them as featured results. First of all, at least to my possibly not-cynical-enough brain, "featured" does not translate to "advertisement". It makes me think that perhaps this is a particularly useful or notable link. Second of all, when I search in Galeon, I see a medium-gray background with a hard-to-read, only slightly darker text stating that a given site is a featured site. It does not exactly stand out. (I cannot help but think that the fact that of all the websites I've seen in the past three months, the MSN one is the only one where using the default color choices in a non-IE browser is such that reading is annoying is somewhat nasty).
I agree that the author could have pointed out the "FEATURED" bit, but given that I made the same assumption, I don't think that it's all that egregious.
May we never see th
Pundits expressed cautious optimism regarding this new move, saying "This will take the uncertainty out of worm propagation on the Internet. And that can only be considered a good thing."
they see what users are doing, (using other people's sofware and innovations of course,) and launch something that they will include on their desktop for "free."
I thing that this should be easy enough to kill though through the anti-trust (ha ha ha ha, like M$ gives a shit about the law,) because its something external to the operating system and M$ should not be allowed to put it on their desktop AT ALL as anything else than a legitimate install process. They should be forced to compete like everybody else.
The alternative is to have the systems report bogus pages and broken to M$ web crawlers and spiders to shut them out of the useful information while leaving anybody else's search-engines go through untrameled.
After a while, people will get the hint "Wanna find shit, use NOT M$ because M$ search engine sucks and gives you a ton of broken links."
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
# Latest News: microsoft
Microsoft warns of critical IE flaws (MSNBC - Aug. 21)
Microsoft Windows: Insecure by Design (Washington Post - Aug. 24)
Microsoft finds security flaws (Boston Globe - Aug. 22)
I am not attached to labels. I have shot the buddha on the road. Symbols and dogma are not important, only spreading good karma.
Now, back to the topic: saying that MS is funding the SCO lawsuit isn't spreading neither Fear, Uncertainty nor Doubt. It is a fact: as the lawsuit was announced, MS bought a totally unnecessary Unix license for quite a large sum of money. I cannot say that they are directly funding the lawsuit, however the timing was highly suspicious, especially considering that MS would greatly benefit from SCO winning the case (which seems less likely every day). You may not have the same opinion as I have regarding this, however you cannot prove me wrong - and I do believe that to be the truth, therefore I am indeed abstaining from flase speech.
The RTFM attitude, the "end-luser" attitude, the "it works for me" mentality?
Actually, in the two years since I've started using Linux, I've nearly always found other Linux users to be helpful and polite. Not once was I ever told to RTFM. On the contrary, the great spirit of cooperation and general helfulness has been one of the things that has kept me with Linux.
Surely, I must also be a Microsoft employee since I don't like Linux and speak of it in public?
Not necessarily. But I am curious as to why you have such hostility towards Linux...If you do not have a personal stake in MS, why do you feel compelled to defend them even though they have shown themselves to be capable of such shady behavior? You aggressively attack anyone suggesting that MS might be involved...without offering any other counter-arguments than personal insults. In fact, you display the same kind of bad behaviour that you accuse Linux advocates of...however, speaking out of personal experience, I've seen much more personal insults coming out of anti-Linux posters than from pro-Linux ones (who generally aim their attacks at MS, not at invidual Windows users).
In other words, no, I do not spread FUD. But those anti-Linux web sites are. Why aren't you concerned with those? Oh, I forgot, you're not really interested in fair and balanced debate, just in tarnishing the free OS's name and the reputation of those who use it...
Reminder: find a new sig
Your examination is both superficial and incomplete. The first seven or so links on the Microsoft site are adverts and sites that want your money, ignoring them for purposes of comparison is kind of like ignoring the first seven hours of your day. Secondly, the choice of sites and the words used are highly derogotory and liable to give the user a bad impresion. Notice that Microsoft treat's itself better than Red Hat when you search on Microsoft. The general page is put before cheasy adverts and the support page. The case for Linux is reversed, throwing the user at the problems after first, but only after the MSN Linux page. Microsoft treats Windows well too and, of course, does not mention Debian, the Free Software Foundation or anything smacking of Freedom. For a detailed analysis of the wording of Microsoft's summaries listed see this earlier post and please put down the crack pipe - Microsoft's search engine is no where near a match for Google and never will be.
I never believed they would ever quit resorting to name calling, did you? When it backfired on them, they have shifted to these indirect tactics, using proxies and now they have morphed their search engine into a very impressive double speak generator.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Why should MS be required to provide objective information about its competitors? It's not like Slashdot or any Linux-oriented news sites, let alone the web pages run by companies and groups that make Linux software and distributions are even close to providing fair and accurate information about Microsoft products.
Nobody beats netscape in the area of objective search: try searching for 'hotmail' at netscape.com. First result is ... Netscape Mail. They claim it is 'powered by Google', but obviously they "tweak" google results to promote their own and probably other's paid services.
(I've discovered this recently when using internet kiosk with netscape browser).
MSDOS: 20+ years without remote hole in the default install
Am I the only one that's shocked there's a "Linux sucks" website?? Maybe I've just been brainwashed by /. but I figured everyone loved linux...
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
Mircosoft has identified Linux as a 'threat', and will do anything they can to discourage people from migrating from their product.
Being a computer consultant, I have found that the vast majority of people I encounter already know Microsoft's software is slow, expensive, and a huge security risk. Unfortunatly their mission critical apps require it. I must add however, about 95% of them have their home page set to Google, or Google News, and many of those aren't even using IE even though its installed. Many are using Opera.
I have to say most of us have no love of Microsoft from a technical standpoint, but they make us money.
This is Microsoft's MO, and I doubt it will change any time soon. Consider who is backing SCO in their charge to cause problems in the Linux world...