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Consumer Electronics Industry: Linux is the Future

securitas writes "The New York Times is carrying a Reuters story about Linux as the software of choice for consumer electronics. At the world's largest consumer electronics show, the IFA trade fair 'the first Linux products are already on show and more will come soon, companies said.' The reason? Linux is freely available, widely embraced and profit margins in the consumer electronics business are one or two percent at best. The math is simple. The industry push comes from the members of the Consumer Electronics Linux Forum (CELF), that includes Sony, Philips, Matsushita/Panasonic, Hitachi, Sharp, Samsung, NEC, IBM, LG, Thomson/RCA and Toshiba. The CELF was previously discussed on Slashdot. Mirrors at Silicon.com and CNet News."

35 of 263 comments (clear)

  1. Close! by El · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Actually, Embedded Linux is the present! I am this very minute putting the finishing touches on embedded Linux code shipping in a projector! Sorry, WindRiver -- guess you aren't the Micro$oft of the embedded world after all!

    --

    "Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney

    1. Re:Close! by El · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The problem with WinCE is that 95% of the embedded products out there don't really need a GUI. Compatibility with Windows GUI code so you can prototype on a PC is the only real advantage of WinCE. With Linux you can also prototype on a PC without all the overhead. (Unless you need a GUI, in which case X is probably has more memory overhead than the WinCE GUI).

      Microsoft's mistake was insisting on "NT everywhere", i.e. that the same OS architecture should work for huge parallel servers and for SOHO routers. Why doesn't Linux have the same problem? I think it's because Linux is a lot more modular; it's easier to strip out much of the kernel at compile time, so it will boot out of and run with much less memory.

      Another mistake Microsoft made was abandoning support for anything other than x86 architecture, making Linux the natural choice for ARM. MIPs, power PC... basically for all the processors that aren't as power-hungry as the x86.

      --

      "Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney

    2. Re:Close! by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Another mistake Microsoft made was abandoning support for anything other than x86 architecture, making Linux the natural choice for ARM. MIPs, power PC... basically for all the processors that aren't as power-hungry as the x86.

      This is very much like the post I would have liked to have written. While I was reading it though, I started to think about the future, which is kind of fun because you can make shit up. One thing I didn't make up though is that a friend of mine once told me that people would run Unix on their microwaves (they did not say what kind, I think it was cute that they said Unix) because it's all you'll be able to get. It must have been Charlie. Okay so that sounds like horseshit, but there are devices that were pretty neat but fell off the market due to lack of demand that no one is making any more, I recall some voice synthesis chip that had a phoeneme lookup table and you could record your own samples, stick them in a prom, and you could make a speech synthesizer sound like you, or anyone else for that matter, and it went away. (It might be back by now.)

      So think about all the crazy shit we can do now, how fine our processes are in general. Only the best fabs can do the really tiny stuff but everyone's processes are getting smaller, so you can make chips cheaper. The packaging is getting cheaper all the time too, though it's already pretty damn cheap. I mean think about how inexpensive assorted little chips are today. Whip out your good old BG Micro catalog and you can get assorted basic ICs for fifty cents, stuff that I personally have paid five bucks for. An XPORT with a 186 chip in it is $50, and that's a whole frickin computer. I mean if you had that and a terminal, you could get a few simple network apps on it. Actually, that sounds like a really fun project, now if only I could afford an XPORT :P

      So how long is it going to be before consumers are paying ten bucks for some little microcomputer that comes with Linux on it and is smaller than the battery you attach it to? It can't be THAT long. And in quantity they'll be maybe five. Really you can do the job of controlling a microwave with a really nice interface with a pic today, but they keep promising us dirt-cheap oled displays so I'd assume people are going to want to have touch-sensitive video interfaces in even low-end appliances within a few years. Okay, maybe more than a few, but you know it's coming...

      Anyway, people are making really low power x86 processors now, so the fact that people are still teaching programming them in assembler in schools since x86-based systems are inexpensive and readily available (most everyone has one already, so you kind of have to teach it for now) means that we likely WILL see embedded NT make a comeback. It will become more useful as the hardware becomes cheaper and cheaper. Old designs that people are interested in using don't go away; some magic research and bing! here they come again. You have to wonder what chips you've seen recently that somewhere inside of them contain an Am386 or something similar. Old cores never die, they just get chopped up into bits.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  2. Good news by geekmetal · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Low cost and the freedom to tweak the software are reasons why eight of the world's largest consumer electronics makers, including the numbers one and two Sony Corp and Matsushita of Japan, have set up an alliance to develop and promote Linux for consumer electronics products, last month.

    I just hope all these corporation continue to respect GPL and not find a way to tear Linux apart. Just a little caution needed after what happened to UNIX.

    --
    There are two kinds of egotists: 1) Those who admit it 2) The rest of us
    1. Re:Good news by garcia · · Score: 3, Insightful

      the big problem (and the reason that the companies are using it) is that they can exploit Linux for their own financial gain without giving us anything back.

      While it's nice to say that Linux runs these devices, I would also like to see that fucking code get into the kernel somehow.

      The reason Linux is as good as it is is because of the community. Linux programmers made the kernel the way it is OPENLY.

      These companies are going to use what has already been developed and then they aren't going to continue adding those features to the kernel to be worked on by others.

      Again, I am glad to see Linux is running these things, but I would prefer that Linux be made better openly by these companies embracing it.

    2. Re:Good news by Abcd1234 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Presuming, of course, that they're making any substantive changes to the kernel code base that anyone is actually interested in. After all, most of the modifications they do make are probably very specific to the hardware they're using, etc, and hence aren't that useful to anyone outside the company.

    3. Re:Good news by Abcd1234 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Perhaps, but do we really care if that code gets into Linux? Do you really want a bunch of patches in the Kernel that allow it run on a specific set of hardware in a particular DVD player?

      My point is that unless these companies are making interesting architectural changes to the kernel, or otherwise improving it in a way that more than just a few people care about, what difference does it make if they release their changes or not?

    4. Re:Good news by penguin7of9 · · Score: 2, Funny

      These companies are going to use what has already been developed and then they aren't going to continue adding those features to the kernel to be worked on by others.

      If they ship the software as part of their hardware, they have to make the source available.

    5. Re:Good news by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Woah there Cowboy. Their actually helping Linux without ever returning a line of code. The main barriers that are holding back Linux are not technical but social issues. The truth is most people don't care about the license just as long it is not to restrictive. But people have a tendency of following the leader (Or those big companies) when possible. With a lot of the Big boys using Linux it is helping get the word out about Linux and as well in the far future when these imbedded devices start to really standardize Linux has a better chance of being ported to meet the standards then any property format. Once standardization occurs Linux is there to stay in the imbedded market just like Windows is on the Desktop (I Feel imbedded electronics will replace desktops as a common means of computing far faster then it will take linux to win on the desktop). So basically every one who uses Linux is supporting it, even if they are not giving all their code to the public.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    6. Re:Good news by PD · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The reason is that these companies are using Linux for a reason. Don't look at the situation as "us" and "companies". The companies are users too. They choose Linux sometimes for the same reasons that we choose Linux.

      What are those reasons? The ability to get a great product for low cost, the ability to change that product, and the ability to distribute the modified product.

      A company that makes a device, such as a robot, isn't in the operating system business. Even if the extensions that allow Linux to run on robots don't get into the vanilla kernel, it's still a benefit to cause those extensions to be released under the GPL.

      To continue using the robot example, if Sony make a robot running Linux, and releases their patches for the robot Linux kernel, then Samsung could use the robot Linux as the foundation for the Samsung robot. And vice-versa. The reason that these companies win in that situation is that they are not in the business of selling Linux, and Sony and Samsung do not compete on the basis of how bad-ass their Linux product is. They compete in the robot marketplace.

      It makes perfect sense for these two companies to cooperate on the Linux kernel, because they don't compete there. It would not make sense for these two companies to GPL the applications that distinguish their individual robots however. If Sony were to make special modifications to the Linux kernel that implemented trade secret robot algorithms, they would be doing something wrong; those pieces belong in user space, not kernel space.

  3. Re:Makes no sense by El · · Score: 5, Funny

    It's only $32 for each embedded Linux device... which is still silly, since SCO claims it's the multiprocessor support that's infringing! Yeah, I'm sure most all toasters are using multiprocessor support!

    --

    "Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney

  4. Math by mopslik · · Score: 5, Funny

    Linux is freely available... The math is simple.

    SCO-math aside...

    Good to hear, though. I've been happy with my little Linux-based MP3 player for years now.

    1. Re:Math by Znonymous+Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Good to hear, though. I've been happy with my little Linux-based MP3 player for years now.

      How about a URL?

      --

      Karma: The shiznight, mostly because I am the Drizzle.

    2. Re:Math by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2, Funny
      I don't know.

      A SCO Xenix based MP3 player with a +$699 price tag with constant rebooting, freezing, and disk corruption sounds pretty good for me right now.

  5. Hmm by ciroknight · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Won't all computers end up being embedded devices? I mean really think about it. Why would you load the OS on to a hard drive when you could easly put it on a hardware level and put all the programs on the disk. Makes a lot of sense because you save so much disk space, and at the same time, the OS is more secured against accidental deletion and file corrupting viruses.

    So I treat this as the ultimate victory for Linux. The next generation of computers is wireless and mobile and trying to keep everything secure. Firmware Operating Systems is the solution; hail the next coming of a great era, the wireless/linux revolution!

    --
    "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." G.W.Bush
  6. Re:Makes no sense by jared_hanson · · Score: 4, Funny

    Yeah, I'm sure most all toasters are using multiprocessor support!

    They better be! I like to make at least two pieces of toast at a time.

    --
    -- Fighting mediocrity one bad post at a time.
  7. QNX by levik · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I always somehow thought that QNX was the OS of choice, since it was smaller and more stable.

    I mean sure devices like Tivo which can download patches from the server once a week may not really care, but what about something that's stuck with whatever OS it leaves the factory with...

    Is linux really "there" yet?

    --
    Ñ'
    1. Re:QNX by rusty0101 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Of concern would be the licencing costs associated with QNX. When the manufacturers are talking about 1 and 2% profit margins, even $1 per device (on a $1000 device) is 5% of a 2% profit. Worse for devices in the $50-$200 range.

      Compared with rolling your own distribution of Linux that has only the features you want in the hardware you send out, with a one time charge for the development tools if you choose to use them, and you can see that there is a large potential for savings.

      Quick back of the message calculation. 200,000 units at $500 each is $100 million revenue. Profit of 1% is $1 million. $2 per unit is $400,000, or 40% of what would otherwise be profit. Actual numbers would very based upon the per unit licencing cost of QNX, though I would be surprised if QNX was asking as little as $0.50.

      Just my thoughts, you may have different estimates.

      -Rusty

      --
      You never know...
    2. Re:QNX by drightler · · Score: 3, Informative

      > What hardware does QNX Neutrino support?

      The QNX Neutrino RTOS supports numerous processors from the x86/Pentium, PowerPC, ARM, StrongARM, XScale, MIPS, and SH-4 processor families. In addition, the QNX Momentics development suite provides board-support packages for a large variety of reference boards.

      QNX(R) Neutrino(R) RTOS FAQs

      --

      blah blah blah....
      drightler@technicalogic.com
  8. Re:For those who don't want to subscribe - the tex by bsharitt · · Score: 2, Informative

    Or you could click on the Reuters link instead of the NYTimes one.

  9. Re:Makes no sense by Jason1729 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Generating the heat to toast the bread still takes a few CPUs. Intel and AMD are working on their next-generation chips that should be powerful enough to only need a single CPU to toast bread.

    Jason
    ProfQuotes

  10. Smart Vibrators? by SWroclawski · · Score: 2, Funny

    Linux runs on smart vibrators?

    That's too much information for me...

  11. Fe Fi Fo Fum I smell the blood of a troller dumb by TheScienceKid · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The original reads "Linux, currently a software system mostly used to power big servers and personal computers, is also now emerging as a small set of computing code to drive devices like mobile phones, remote controls and TVs." this Arrrrchive reads "Linux, currently a software system mostly used to power big servers and personal computers, is also now emerging as a small set of computing code to drive devices like mobile phones, remote controls and smart vibrators." and undoubtedly contains more idiocy. Please, don't subscribe to trolls.... vote them down with your modpoints, for gods sake.

  12. Re:what's with all the links? by greenhide · · Score: 3, Funny
    Should be:
    Somehow I think slashdot readers are smart enough to find Sony, Philips, Matsushita, Panasonic, Hitachi, Sharp, Samsung, NEC, IBM, LG, Thomson, RCA, or Toshiba websites without the useless plethora of links.
    --
    Karma: Chevy Kavalierma.
  13. The Computer Scientist and the Engineer by YetAnotherName · · Score: 5, Funny

    Seems appropriate to revive this classic at this time:

    Once upon a time, in a kingdom not far from here, a king summoned two of his advisors for a test. He showed them both a shiny metal box with two slots in the top, a control knob, and a lever. "What do you think this is?"

    One advisor, an engineer, answered first. "It is a toaster," he said. The king asked, "How would you design an embedded computer for it?" The engineer replied, "Using a four-bit microcontroller, I would write a simple program that reads the darkness knob and quantizes its position to one of 16 shades of darkness, from snow white to coal black. The program would use that darkness level as the index to a 16-element table of initial timer values. Then it would turn on the heating elements and start the timer with the initial value selected from the table. At the end of the time delay, it would turn off the heat and pop up the toast. Come back next week, and I'll show you a working prototype."

    The second advisor, a computer scientist, immediately recognized the danger of such short-sighted thinking. He said, "Toasters don't just turn bread into toast, they are also used to warm frozen waffles. What you see before you is really a breakfast food cooker. As the subjects of your kingdom become more sophisticated, they will demand more capabilities. They will need a breakfast food cooker that can also cook sausage, fry bacon, and make scrambled eggs. A toaster that only makes toast will soon be obsolete. If we don't look to the future, we will have to completely redesign the toaster in just a few years.

    "With this in mind, we can formulate a more intelligent solution to the problem. First, create a class of breakfast foods. Specialize this class into subclasses: grains, pork, and poultry. The specialization process should be repeated with grains divided into toast, muffins, pancakes, and waffles; pork divided into sausage, links, and bacon; and poultry divided into scrambled eggs, hard- boiled eggs, poached eggs, fried eggs, and various omelet classes.

    "The ham and cheese omelet class is worth special attention because it must inherit characteristics from the pork, dairy, and poultry classes. Thus, we see that the problem cannot be properly solved without multiple inheritance. At run time, the program must create the proper object and send a message to the object that says, 'Cook yourself.' The semantics of this message depend, of course, on the kind of object, so they have a different meaning to a piece of toast than to scrambled eggs.

    "Reviewing the process so far, we see that the analysis phase has revealed that the primary requirement is to cook any kind of breakfast food. In the design phase, we have discovered some derived requirements. Specifically, we need an object-oriented language with multiple inheritance. Of course, users don't want the eggs to get cold while the bacon is frying, so concurrent processing is required, too.

    "We must not forget the user interface. The lever that lowers the food lacks versatility, and the darkness knob is confusing. Users won't buy the product unless it has a user-friendly, graphical interface. When the breakfast cooker is plugged in, users should see a cowboy boot on the screen. Users click on it, and the message 'Booting UNIX v.8.3' appears on the screen. (UNIX 8.3 should be out by the time the product gets to the market.) Users can pull down a menu and click on the foods they want to cook.

    "Having made the wise decision of specifying the software first in the design phase, all that remains is to pick an adequate hardware platform for the implementation phase. An Intel Pentium with 16MB of memory, a 300MB hard disk, and a SVGA monitor should be sufficient. If you select a multitasking, object oriented language that supports multiple inheritance and has a built-in GUI, writing the program will be a snap. (Imagine the difficulty we would have had if we had foolishly allowed a hardware-first design strategy to lock us into a four-bit microcontroller!)."

    The king wisely had the computer scientist beheaded, and they all lived happily ever after.

  14. Re:Hmm by gyratedotorg · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Why would you load the OS on to a hard drive when you could easly put it on a hardware level and put all the programs on the disk.

    lets face it. no non-trivial piece of software will ever be 100% free of bugs. when a security hole is found in my os, id like to be able to patch it. i dont see how thats possible if the os is at 'the hardware level' (by this, im assuming that you mean it stored in some kind of rom).

    --
    Gyrate Dot Org - "Where high-tech meets low-life"
  15. Economics trumps ideology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The bottom line is that it's always the bottom line with such applications. Companies don't give a flying fig about free as in speech, but free as in beer gets their attention every time.

  16. I believe.. by bludstone · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...the CHILDREN are our future. Teach them well, and let them lead the way.

    This Linux thing is just a fad.

    --

    no .sig
  17. just wait till next year by rtphokie · · Score: 3, Funny
    Linux is the Future

    I'm sure I've seen this article many many times over the past several years. Linux zealots are starting to sound like Red Sox fans.

  18. Summary of Events So Far by jd · · Score: 5, Funny
    • Consumer Electronics Industry: Linux is the future!
    • IBM and SGI: Linux is the present!
    • Microsoft: Linux is the past!
    • SCO: Linux is ours!
    • Peruvian and German Governments: A Linux for Every Desktop!
    • SCO: Only if you pay us loads of money!
    • US Government: Terrorist nations can deploy Linux against us in less than 45 minutes!
    • NSA: That's ok, 'cos we already use it, and we've made it more secure. So there.
    • NASA: Oh, and we've made it so Linux can turn trash PCs into supercomputer clusters.
    • US Government: Erk!
    • China: Yaaay! We get to build ourselves a supercompuer! We don't have much to use one for, so we'll probably end up using it for beating everyone else's score on distributed.net, and playing massive games of Quake.
    • Popular press: Linux? That's something those long-haired wierdos use. No story here.


    If people think the techno world is boring, they should take another look. Some of this stuff really does make "Dilbert" look better than real life.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  19. Talk about Linux by redcaboodle · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I was in my local photo shop today, collecting some films. Some people wanted to have prints of their digital photos. "No problem" says the photo guy, we just burn those pics from the smartcard onto a CD and send that in to the Lab.
    He fires up the burner - a standalone device with a reader for every digital cam storage medium and a built-in burner and... yes.. its a linux boot sequence and the touch-screen app ran on X. This thing needs drivers for a lot of exotic stuff and was up within 15 seconds.
    Quite impressive.

    --
    -- Put crudely, the world is an extremely large problem instance. (Russel/Norvig Artificial Intelligence)
  20. Re:FreeBSD Embedded by IM6100 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    FreeBSD isn't as portable as NetBSD, nor is the kind of advantage in hardware support for desktop OSes needed in an embedded device application.

    Plus, you're not as likely to hear about products that embed one of the BSD OSes, as there's no reason for the company to disclose they're using a BSD.

    There's lots of embedded NetBSD out there.

    --
    A Good Intro to NetBS
  21. Re:Interesting by korgull · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That means that they have done developments based on Linux over the past few years but not put it into market yet. Perhaps now they think it's mature enough to do this to replace their existing products.
    I would considder this is to be quite a big step and it's quite remarkable that so many companies share this idea. It takes quite an effort to get so many big companies in line and therefore may be part of some long term strategy.

  22. Another Linux market... by hahn · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm a physician at a large academic hospital. The healthcare area is one that I think Linux is ideally suited for. Few have attempted it and yet, if you look at the potential benefits, it's almost a no-brainer:

    - A large hospital will have hundreds if not thousands of computer terminals. Linux could significantly reduce hospital overhead costs, which nowadays is being given a high priority.

    - Linux doesn't currently have the virus/worm problem that Windows has. This is majorly problematic for Windows in the healthcare industry where almost any informatics downtime is unacceptable. Healthcare informatics is rapidly turning into a mission-critical enterprise as more and more hospitals depend on their computer systems to deliver information.

    - There's no reason healthcare workers couldn't use the StarOffice/OpenOffice Suites for applications. Most users' needs are pretty basic and documents regarding patients are supposed to be held strictly confidential as well.

    - Which brings me to the one downside. Few medical informatics applications are written for Linux. Those that have been are open-source and are developed very slowly since very few programmers out there know anything about (or care to know anything about) healthcare informatics application requirements.

    --
    "The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well."
  23. Re:Close!-Biz Opportunity?-II by El · · Score: 2, Funny

    Don't forget the power-over-ethernet (IEEE 802.3af), so all I have to do is run Cat5 to it... how many existing SBCs support POE?

    --

    "Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney