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Finally A Major-Brand Desktop With Linux, Not Windows
Fugwidzard writes "Sounds like an okay box from HP at an okay price, the NewsForge review says, but no modem, and even optional modems are Winmodems although they say they have Linux drivers for them. Plus it's not a true Linux preload - they give you a couple of Mandrake CDs and you're on your own, no support. Better than paying Microsoft tax, anyway, and a step in the right direction for HP. Supposedly they're going to have all their PCs 'Linux certified' in the near future. I hope other big PC mills do the same."
Evesham supply a preloaded, supported, all nicely configured system.
mmmmm... taste the preloaded goodness...
foo mane padme hum
Is dell not a major brand?
"Windows version of the d220 does include a modem option, but it is a Winmodem. HP tells me there is a Linux driver available for it on the Internet."
So if I read this right, you have to go on the Internet and download a driver for the modem in your new PC. Um, unless I have broadband, how am I supposed to get on the Internet to download this driver?
Seems about as smart as putting the installation instructions for your CD-ROM drive on a CD...
What is the price of the same configuration with Windows? Logically, the same configuration with Linux should cost slightly less
My guess is this is a testing-of-the-water here, see how things go over, probably mixed with wanting to take the easiest route. So, they toss out a machine, note they'll have everything certified, and see how it goes in the commercial market.
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On a related note, how long is it going to be until SCO is mentioned in these comments . .
"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
The modem issue is not a big one, I don't think. Many people today are using broadband, so as long as there is a network card in the box it should be all right. Also, in case they do want a modem, at least they are providing Mandrake. After installing Mandrake 9.0 and 9.1 on my box at home, I was amazed that 9.0 told me I had a Winmodem and gave me a URL to find out how to make it work, and 9.1 even installed the Winmodem drivers! (If only Dell had not given me a Winmodem in the first place...)
Given that God is infinite, and the Universe is also infinite, would you like some toast?
There has been a major brand desktop computer without Windows, since 1984 even. There's lots of good reasons for Linux vs owning a Macintosh, but you've had choices before this.
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$tar -xvf
We have a few of the HP Itanium workstations that came with Red Hat Linux preloaded, so they are selling some machines with Linux preloaded on them. Of course, for $8k+, they'd better come with the OS preloaded, right? ;-)
Until a major player like HP can offer tech support and an actual pre-load, Linux will still be limited to the more hard-core user.
Anyone who would be using Linux, at least in the USA, would just build thier own system, download Linux off the net (or even buy the retail box of the OS) and have a higher performance/price system.
The whole reason why I would ever buy a retail computer would be for the warranty. Now for the common joe-user out there, the warranty and support is something they need.
Put Linux on that system, then what's the point if there isn't support, let alone pre-installation.
It's cheap budget PC. I mean the most RAM it can have is 256Mb...40G 5.4kRPM hd...yay.
I really dislike how Linux keeps getting labeled as the "cheap" solution to Windows. Yes it's cheaper than windows but thats not the ONLY advatange.
I hated how AMD was viewed exactly in the same way when compared to Intel. "The cheaper solution.."
In Soviet Russia, the television watches YOU!
I'm not really chomping at the bit to pay HP to put a desktop box together so I can run Linux on it. If I'm gonna master the installation and configuration of the OS, why wouldn't I be willing to assemble a barebones system? I want a new computer to be either easy or cheap; this isn't either.
Yes, a step in the right direction but... Why couldn't they do it right? It wouldn't take much for a company like HP to do a decent preload. (Even Lindows has accomplished this!) I'm sure that HP has the right infrastructure and skills to do this job right. Just good enough should not be good enough!
www.mikesmind.com - www.daddyworkathome.com - www.freetofarm.org - www.tenfoottable.com
It is indeed good news that one of the bigger vendors is putting a Linux box in their catalog... However, just giving a blank box and a CD set is not the way it should be done.
Quite a lot of software should be preloaded, all nicely set-up to enable the buyer to start using it right away. When, in a later stage, someone asked him if his PC worked well with this all new, thing-of-the-underworld, very-neet-and-1337, futuristic OS on it. Only if the person can say then "yeah, sure, it had everything on it, I plugged it in and it started in 60 seconds, it came with an office suite preloaded and i browsed the internet and read e-mails in no-time...".
Only then Linux will Linux hit the home-market.
WTF? I thought HP sponsors Debian. Actually, I know they do (click on their sponsor link on the front page). So what's with this Mandrake stuff when there's Debian-based desktop-oriented distros like Knoppix and Xandros available?
Help us build a better map!
1. Factory machines are WAY over-priced to begin with. Existing Linux users already know the benefit of piecing a machine together themselves and how much it shaves off the price.
2. If they are trying to attract "new" computer users (or users who aren't as experienced) to Linux, they're in for quite a surprise when they get massive amounts of returns. "Hey, none of my existing software works with this.. This machine is going back to the store!"
Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems like this would only benefit in corporate environments where they need to use Linux and don't have time to piece together machines.
We have secretly replaced these Slashdot mods' sense of humor with a rusty nail. Let's see if they notice!!
"Plus it's not a true Linux preload - they give you a couple of Mandrake CDs and you're on your own, no support."
That's the way I prefer it, actually. Whenever I buy a manufactured PC, no matter who it's from, the first thing I do is format and reinstall, even if I stick to the OS provided. Who knows what was installed from the factory? (Probably nothing bad but all it takes is one bad employee.)
I can't say I'm surprised by the company not offering support. Having worked supporting home PC users I know that they're far from savvy and can be testing at the best of times, downright infuriating at worst. If you then throw 'Linux' into the mix which is less user friendly than Windows - though it is getting friendlier by the day - you'd end up with a lot of frustrated users and techs. I doubt we'll see Linux being installed and fully supported on PCs sold to Joe Public till it's at least as user friendly as Windows. Which for all its faults, is quite hard to mess up.
To me they always seem to require expensive memory for it to be guaranteed to work, un-upgradable components, and arcane BIOSes that run a version of windows to configure it.
This is all well and great for big companies that want 1000s of the same PCs for easy maintainance and vendor support, but for the average geek it is nothing but trouble.
I'll just stick with buying components or bare-bones PCs, those have always been without M$-Tax as well, thank you.
That's pretty much what we thought when Dell did it. There's still little traction for Linux preloaded on major vendor desktops.
I wonder if this isn't at least partially to address some moaning from the corporate sector about having to purchase Windows twice? I've heard that many companies are buying Windows licenses via a licensing program, then buying another license when they purchase the hardware. Is this just an end-run around that, with Linux used as a convenient excuse?
After all of the SCO mess, I must be in conspiracy theory mode.
the no
Dont manufacturers pay Microsoft based on units shipped, and not what's shipped on them?
To play DVDs
...you pay the HP tax? Dell's got a much lower cost operation and can afford to undercut HP by a substantial amount, you might as well just buy from them, and get your copy of Windows for free (relative to the price of the equivalent computer from HP w/o Windows).
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
According to the GPL:
3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:
Seems that a) was not done. Can anyone confirm if b) is?
You're telling me the only difference is $52? No regular user is going to choose Linux over Windoze XP just to save $52.
There hasn't been a great clamor in the consumer sector for *nix boxes. Those in the know sculpt their own (or buy Apple, of course).
I interpret this move by concumer-friendly HP less as their being proactive vis-a-vis consumer needs and more as their being proactive to get the best OEM deal possible next quarter with Redmond.
This is the type of stuff that must absolutely friggin' terrify the MS sales-suits nurturing the OEM supply chain. The fact that other consumer dealers could follow HP's lead is even more chilling to them. The sound you hear is a half-dozen executive sales assistants in Redmond slamming open file cabinets and searching for contracts their bosses can review with an eye towards sweetening.
Ultimately, whether you are a fan of Linux or Windows, you benefit. A Good Thing.
It's a shame, because it seems that the main benefit of a company like HP offering this machine would be to help increase the OS market share of Linux. If it doesn't do well because it doesn't appeal to new buyers, will the corporation (and competitors?) decide that this is a failed experiment and leave the linux market to people like wal-mart?
Maybe corporations that hire their own tech support would go for this - be more likely with pre-installation, though.
Lets be honest - this is getting less and less of an issue. Most people who want a linux box have broadband.
...only it's easier to send faxes with a modem.
Of course, you do have to order them with RedHat, but they do give you the option.
Right off of the Dell site:
Linux Products
Dell Linux Overview
Qualitas edurus commercium, nullus penitus net rimor, nullus deus beneficium
I prefer to buy an external for a number of reasons and a few extra when dealing with Linux.
I like being able to turn the modem off when I'm not using it. Some modems are preconfigured to answer the phone some aren't. It's just easier to turn it off when it's not being used.
More portable. Being that modems won't be upgrading any time soon the option of installing my modem on future PCs is very appealing.
But more than that a good RS232 port modem is pritty much universal.
Everything from the old Commodore 64 (with RS232 cable) to an iMac (with USB to sereal addapter) and everything in between.
I have a dial up modem had one for years and I don't even use it.
The modems offered by OEMs are always Win modems not worth it.
I did once consider buying a modem card but that was becouse the sereal card wasn't much cheaper. But I stayed my course.
Anyway for $20 a month I get cable internet a 64k baud. Not quite broudband of course but it's cheap and effective. No screwed up phone lines to deal with.
I don't actually exist.
"What good will a DVD drive be on a Linux machine? "
DVDs can be used to store data or video, the DVD drive could be used to retrieve this information.
I hope that most people who have gotten past using the major brand-name monopoly operating system have similarly gotten past using a major brand name company-who-puts-computers-together (and I use this expression because I think to say that they build computers is a bit absurd)...
I just bought an HP laptop and apart from 3d acceleration under X, linux works great. I'm wondering if they will make all of their PCs "Linux compatable" retroactively so that i will have full hardware support. Regardless, usually drivers get written eventually by somebody although it might take longer than direct intervention on the part of HP.
Is it just me, or is the tide really starting to turn in the last couple of months? I realise /. focuses on these things, but there seems to have been a lot of articles lately about major organizations, militaries, governments, school systems and the like straight-up turning thier back on Microsoft in favour of GNU/Linux or OSS.. (and even starting from scratch a la Japan/China/Taiwan).
Is Microsoft really starting to lose thier grip? Will we look back 5 years from now and chuckle about how MS had such domination, but by then they will be less relevant? With Microsoft "out of the way", will this allow other OS startups (not linux or bsd types) to flourish? I.e. will BeOS get re-invented as a commercial product? Plan9? Something brand new?
do() || do_not();
Given the pricing of this box, you can:
spend $467 and throw the Linux CDs away
spend $519 and throw the Windows XP Home CDs away
spend $589 and throw the Windows XP Pro CDs away
Which do you do?
(Those of you out there really in IT support can now tell me what's wrong with the above. My last sysadmin work was around 1996...)
To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
... the silver-front box with the Compaq logo on it. We got one of the very first demo units from our local Compaq sales rep before HP rebranded and recolored the boxes. They had something in the BIOS that prevented either SuSE 8 or Redhat 8 CDROM disks from even booting up. I tried the floppy-based installation and Linux would install, but both LILO and Grub would try to start the kernel and it would then freeze up solid after the kernel uncompressed and tried to start. I put the Windows XP Pro cdrom back into the machine and the re-installation of XP went as normal and the machine worked fine. I asked our salesrep about this and he said that the BIOS on these demo machines was deliberately written to not run Linux due to some agreement with you-know-who.
That box ain't so bad, compared to HP boxes from a couple years ago, which are f-ugly. They should have just fired all the HP box designers and used Compaq's after the merger.
from the numbers published over the last few quarters, it really looks like HP is losing the PC war with Dell (well, basically everybody is losing). Is HP pushing this because they're desperate enough to try anything (including risk a MS reprisal)?
I mean, nobody's under any illusions when it comes to whether or not MS plays hardball, right? You get the feeling this is one of those ventures where they hope to sell "many, but not so many as to trigger MS unhappiness"... between a rock and a hard place indeed.
Actually, there isn't anything after the ...
From the point of view of a PHB, if you buy this with Mandrake, you'll attract the ire of SCO, and Microsoft will send the BSA stormtroopers round to make you prove that you're not running hooky Windows installs.
The SCO issue isn't that serious, but the BSA one is a real headache for IT departments. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if some shops will buy this with XP home on it, then install a linux distro over it, simply on the basis that HP certify it for Mandrake (and soon SuSE and Red Hat), but they don't want the BSA sniffing roun. Result: HP sees poor sales figures for the Mandrake option, and assumes that nobody wants it.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm!
Dell has been selling systems with Linux on 'em for a while now. HP seems late to the game.
Support is via RedHat.
If you live in the U.S or Canada, great! But, HP Australia still uses harris technology as a distributor. HT make it appear as though WinXP Pro is the only OS worth owning. The way it's presented on their website is very -smug-. Anyway, it looks like a nice system. A shame I can't buy it because I refuse to pay for an OS (WinXP) that I will invariably remove the day I receive the machine. Farewell HP :'(
Oh yes, it couldn't have ANYTHING to do with the decreased cost and complexity of supporting only one platform... Or the atrocious bargaining position they're trapped in with Microsoft... Or the frickin lack of consumer demand for Linux computers. It's all a grand conspiracy by The Man to keep Open Source down.
Dell does sell Linux preinstalls, actually. And these companies realize that someone who has the know-how to use Linux in their enterprise also has the know-how to not use their solutions in the first place. What would HP/Dell/Gateway gain with a major push of Linux other than a pain in the neck?
I'm all for supporting Linux, but expecting computer manufacturers to push Linux as hard as Windows because "it's the right thing to do" is ludicrous. "The right thing to do" is what your customers want; and their major customers want Windows solutions, not Linux.
Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
What he means by "geographical preferences" is such things like Japanese users prefer to use Mandrake, US users prefer Redhat, Germans prefer SuSE, etc...
The Windows world has no such preferences, everyone gets their one "distribution" of Windows, the only difference is the localization of the Windows OS (English, Japanese, Korean, etc).
A very good point. But as it has been pointed out elsewhere in this discussion, the article notes that this line is aimed at business.
There is an increasing, albeit still a niche, interest in Linux on the desktop in that sector. We've seen the articles. And I've worked at a couple large organizations (corporate and government) that are either working on or already deployed an officially supported desktop Linux base.
On the other hand, I suppose this could very well be a chance to push back at Microsoft and strike a better deal. Certainly for OEMs. However, in my two examples, the deployment of Linux desktops has been less about replacing Microsoft and more about serving a demand from the organization's users.
Creating a "Linux compatible" desktop doesn't require too much effort these days. But there is the occasional hardware vendor that should be avoided for a Linux desktop. HP seems to be doing the footwork for business users in providing a desktop that will accept the blessed standard Linux desktop load - whatever that may be. With the usual guarantees and hardware support one tends to look for in a large hardware supplier.
Sounds like an okay box from HP at an okay price ... it's not a true Linux preload - they give you a couple of Mandrake CDs and you're on your own, no support. Better than paying Microsoft tax, anyway ...
You can also get a nice box from Dell with FreeDOS or Red Hat Linux (also can get with Windows). I think Linux is a true pre-load, but FreeDOS is not - they include a CD-ROM with the FreeDOS distribution on it, and you're on your own to install it. Dell only offers these to Canadian customers, AFAIK. We ran a news item about this on the FreeDOS Project web site, and it's still on the front page. Check it out! Here's our news item:
Dell Canada has updated their site, and they no longer offer the Precision 350 desktop with FreeDOS. However, they do offer the newer Precision 360 with "Free DOS Operating System Kit - CD with Source Code": small business and medium and large business and higher ed and health care desktops. Nice systems, too: up to 3.06GHz CPU. For Canadian customers only / Pour les clients canadiens seulement.
Dell did this, Compaq still does to some extent, and now HP is getting into it. The problem is that you have to dig though all sorts of stuff, or just call them outright if you want them. And then calling is having to talk to a supervisor, because the first sales rep will have no idea you can get a non-Windows PC. I've never gone to either of these three "major OEMS" that are "supporting linux" and actually have the option to either buy it in their normal storefronts, or though their normal distributions.
How is someone even soposed to know that linux is an option, if under "Operating System" you have only the choice of WindowsXP Home or Pro? The special linux PCs are usual so hidden you couldn't find them with Ponce De Leon, a GPS, and a personalized Googlebot.
So this is all a non-issue. Until I can go to hp.com and under their normal site, just see the "Mandrake 9.1 (subtract $52)" option on their site when I go though their store and chose "Operating System" for a new PC, it's all just smoke and mirrors.
Refer to my previous comment where I mentioned their lousy bargaining position with Microsoft. Microsoft OEM licenses forbid selling PCs with no OS. Dell gets around this by mailing a FreeDOS diskette with a machine, and now HP is sidestepping it with the Mandrake Disk offer.
The question is, if a user is buying a machine with no OS, why would they buy it from a big name instead of building it themselves cheaper, and why would a big name want to support it not knowing what the user will have installed on it.
How many flavours of Linux are there? BSDs? Plan9? BeOS? Ancient operating systems that have no business being on the PC except that a Geek owns it? How can a big name hope to support all those configurations?
Simple answer: They don't. They expect that if you're going to roll your own OS solution you'll also roll your own hardware solution. If you want OS-less PCs to avoid the "Microsoft tax" there are vendors out there who specialize in that. Tier One vendors specialize in selling you a preconfigured solution that they can support.
Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
Someone know how to let the members of the European Parliament know about this? I believe that only if PCs come dual boot, the abuse of Microsofts monopoly can be broken.
Bert
PC manufacturers are guilty of perpetuating monopoly abuse by M$ until they include a partition with Linux pre-installed
One of the PCs I do freebie tech support for (owned by a friend :)) has an on-board modem and Ethernet NIC. However, I believe the modem is a winmodem.
There was a time when modems did speak a common language. One day someone had the bright idea to use glorified soundcards instead of modems and do the modem bit in software. The rest is history.
Non-geek PC users don't need two office suites, a collection of spreadsheets and a "raft of browsers". They need one of each, and they want that one to "just work".
Linux needs to move away from it's "shovelware" tendancies.
Alright, time to start the count down. I think they'll make it 6 months. Any one else like to place bids on how long they'll continue this? Many vendors have tried the Linux route and simply found that there really was no demand. Linux users generally don't buy from Dell, Gateway, HP, etc.
So, 6 months. What do you say?
scott
We need major companies to warm up to linux. Some (like Dell) like you to think that they are Linux friendly but then give you the Monty Burns "cold, dead, fish" handshake. And send you on your way. IBM has been being the good guy in giving us kernel goodies. HP has been doing cluster stuff. Gateway doesn't even show up on the radar anymore. But if they can be good on their promises about the desktop then maybe we can get somewhere.
That's innovation, not anticompetitiveness... you insensitive clod!
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing